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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
Jagoff Haverford
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
139
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Posted - 2014.04.26 02:40:00 -
[2101] - Quote
Weaselior wrote: nullsec had a 16% edge over highsec pos refineries before this change. it has a 16% edge over highsec pos refineries after this change.
I get the part about null sec having an advantage after the summer expansion. But I don't get the part about null sec having any advantage today. In null sec today, I need an implant along with the ore-specific reprocessing skill trained to 4 in order to get the same refining I can get (with 6.67 NPC standing) in high sec without an implant.
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Black Canary Jnr
Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk Amarr branch. Sev3rance
103
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Posted - 2014.04.26 10:01:00 -
[2102] - Quote
It's like 9 bill for a 57 percent refine outpost and 30 (or was it 50?) for the 60 percent upgrade? Oh and the outpost bcomes an egg while it's installing ( can be destroyed).
compared to free perfect refine in hi-sec...
Nerf deserved. |
Ammzi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
1732
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Posted - 2014.04.26 12:46:00 -
[2103] - Quote
I would like to welcome everyone to page 100 of this industry thread. |
Plug in Baby
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
214
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Posted - 2014.04.26 13:32:00 -
[2104] - Quote
mkint wrote:The only validity in your statement is in that it's against the law to throw you in jail for making it.
Please don't stop posting.
So glad to see that POS will take skills into account, I am currently training them anyway hoping that POS would use them. This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main. |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box
368
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Posted - 2014.04.26 13:35:00 -
[2105] - Quote
Will the skills allow POS refines to go past 54%, or is that 54% figure the maximum WITH skills? |
Plug in Baby
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
214
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Posted - 2014.04.26 13:38:00 -
[2106] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:Will the skills allow POS refines to go past 54%, or is that 54% figure the maximum WITH skills?
I believe without, I'm pretty sure POS refines will be the most efficient refine possible outside of fully upgraded null stations. That is my understanding of it anyway. The exact % doesn't matter so much as it will essentially become the new '100%' This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7065
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Posted - 2014.04.26 14:11:00 -
[2107] - Quote
Jagoff Haverford wrote:Weaselior wrote: nullsec had a 16% edge over highsec pos refineries before this change. it has a 16% edge over highsec pos refineries after this change.
I get the part about null sec having an advantage after the summer expansion. But I don't get the part about null sec having any advantage today. In null sec today, I need an implant along with the ore-specific reprocessing skill trained to 4 in order to get the same refining I can get (with 6.67 NPC standing) in high sec without an implant. I meant for the summer: contrary to mkints ludicrous ramblings the advantage nullsec gets in the summer is exactly the same if pos use skills or not. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS type X
146
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Posted - 2014.04.26 14:38:00 -
[2108] - Quote
Ive invested over a year making this toon able to both be implanted for mission running and also getting perfect refines, this strategy was supported by game mechanics when i started playing the game.
I believe it is seriously unfair for me to now basically waste all that refining training to make an alt, which by the way i would then have to faction grind again and get the implant if i wanted the new maximized high sec refine level.
Refunding skill points will not solve the problem I would have to spend months and billions of isk to make a refining alt (something me and many others already have done).
My proposed solution: "Reprocessing" implant RE-90, works exactly like the Genolution "Auroral" AU-79 implant and one would be given to every active account at the time of the new expansions release but it provides the 4% refine implant characteristics and would not stack with the 4% implant that currently exists.
Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
423
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Posted - 2014.04.26 15:36:00 -
[2109] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Ive invested over a year making this toon able to both be implanted for mission running and also getting perfect refines, this strategy was supported by game mechanics when i started playing the game (you didnt need the 4% implant to reach the maximum possible refine level).
I believe it is seriously unfair for me to now basically waste all that refining training to make an alt, which by the way i would then have to faction grind again and get the implant if i wanted the new maximized high sec refine level.
Refunding skill points will not solve the problem I would have to spend months and billions of isk to make a refining alt (my current pilot already represents this investment as it does for many others who followed the same planning strategy).
My proposed solution: "Reprocessing" implant RE-90, works exactly like the Genolution "Auroral" AU-79 implant and one would be given to every active account at the time of the new expansions release but it provides the 4% refine implant characteristics and would not stack with the 4% implant that currently exists. Use a jumpclone.
Alternatively, just sell your wares instead of reprocessing them. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Potions Master
GearBunny
4
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Posted - 2014.04.26 16:24:00 -
[2110] - Quote
Don't know if the thought crossed a dev's mind yet or not, but are you going to equalize all the high sec stations to 50% with this expansion? I can think of many that are 32%, 35%, 40%, etc... While I'm sure there are players who avoid these, some of them are also manufacturing and research facilities which will definitely become desireable for use following the other industry changes.
As for skills not effecting the compression array, the only thought I had is that it should be that you need to have level 1 in the appropriate reprocessing skill to compress an ore... but then I'm not complaining about this, it gives the young haulers something to do when they drop the ore off at the compression array :) |
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3516
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Posted - 2014.04.26 16:58:00 -
[2111] - Quote
Black Canary Jnr wrote:It's like 9 bill for a 57 percent refine outpost and 30 (or was it 50?) for the 60 percent upgrade? Oh and the outpost bcomes an egg while it's installing ( can be destroyed).
compared to free perfect refine in hi-sec...
Nerf deserved. For what it is worth...
According to EVElopedia (likely outdated): Minmatar Outpost: ~22.23 billion ISK
According to Chruker's site: Basic Refinery Upgrade: ~5.42 billion ISK (including upgrade platform) Intermediate Refiney Upgrade: ~10.84 billion ISK (including upgrade platform) Advanced Refinery Upgrade: ~21.68 billion ISK (including upgrade platform)
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Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
628
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Posted - 2014.04.26 18:52:00 -
[2112] - Quote
Potions Master wrote:Don't know if the thought crossed a dev's mind yet or not, but are you going to equalize all the high sec stations to 50% with this expansion? I can think of many that are 32%, 35%, 40%, etc... While I'm sure there are players who avoid these, some of them are also manufacturing and research facilities which will definitely become desireable for use following the other industry changes.
As for skills not effecting the compression array, the only thought I had is that it should be that you need to have level 1 in the appropriate reprocessing skill to compress an ore... but then I'm not complaining about this, it gives the young haulers something to do when they drop the ore off at the compression array :) I too, would like to know this. My highsec industrial alt finds it odd that the refine in the NPC mining stations is lower than in a CN station, or a Kaalakiota station. "it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka-á |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS type X
147
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Posted - 2014.04.26 20:56:00 -
[2113] - Quote
Querns wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Ive invested over a year making this toon able to both be implanted for mission running and also getting perfect refines, this strategy was supported by game mechanics when i started playing the game (you didnt need the 4% implant to reach the maximum possible refine level).
I believe it is seriously unfair for me to now basically waste all that refining training to make an alt, which by the way i would then have to faction grind again and get the implant if i wanted the new maximized high sec refine level.
Refunding skill points will not solve the problem I would have to spend months and billions of isk to make a refining alt (my current pilot already represents this investment as it does for many others who followed the same planning strategy).
My proposed solution: "Reprocessing" implant RE-90, works exactly like the Genolution "Auroral" AU-79 implant and one would be given to every active account at the time of the new expansions release but it provides the 4% refine implant characteristics and would not stack with the 4% implant that currently exists. Use a jumpclone. Alternatively, just sell your wares instead of reprocessing them. So I spend hundreds of thousands (millions?) of SP and billions of ISK, do to its direct relationship to SP' s to then ignore that investment and turn over my reprocessing to someone else?
Or I give up millions in lost missioning efficiency by using a jump clone?
I am what I call a no-lifer and play 10-13 hours a day. No thanks on both these weak ISK losing options, CCP just needs to make the implant option I asked for and "grandfather" existing players there is too much risk and SP' s at stake. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
423
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Posted - 2014.04.26 21:45:00 -
[2114] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:So I spend hundreds of thousands (millions?) of SP and billions of ISK, do to its direct relationship to SP' s to then ignore that investment and turn over my reprocessing to someone else?
Or I give up millions in lost missioning efficiency by using a jump clone?
I am what I call a no-lifer and play 10-13 hours a day. No thanks on both these weak ISK losing options, CCP just needs to make the implant option I asked for and "grandfather" existing players there is too much risk and SP' s at stake. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention -- you don't even need the +4% implant to refine scrap metal. The implant no longer affects your efficiency. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Nick Bete
The Scope Gallente Federation
283
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Posted - 2014.04.27 04:10:00 -
[2115] - Quote
Why is it that the same handful of goon mouthpieces have shown up again and again for around 50 pages or so of this threadnaught? Methinks they doth protest too much.
You guys got what you wanted so why not just slink off back to your hole and enjoy your ill-gotten gains? Who are you trying to convince here? |
Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
199
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Posted - 2014.04.27 07:17:00 -
[2116] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:Will the skills allow POS refines to go past 54%, or is that 54% figure the maximum WITH skills? It'll go past that. For the 54% Intensive refining arrays's base yield you'll achieve a maximum yield of 78,147%, with all related skills @ 5 and the 4% implant. EVE Infolinks -+-áOld and new-áPortraits |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
275
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Posted - 2014.04.27 08:36:00 -
[2117] - Quote
Nullsec facilities will be able to yield roughly 20% more minerals relative to highsec facilities. This seems like a rather significant buff. Eve being all about risk/reward balancing, with this large increased reward for nullsec, where is the corresponding increased risk?
(And please don't say "hauling it to nullsec is the risk", as highsec ore haulers are just as possible to blow up, something demonstrated daily in Niarja.)
MDD |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1283
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Posted - 2014.04.27 10:13:00 -
[2118] - Quote
Good change CCP. The Tears Must Flow |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1215
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Posted - 2014.04.27 12:31:00 -
[2119] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The Rules: 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15257
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Posted - 2014.04.27 12:47:00 -
[2120] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Nullsec facilities will be able to yield roughly 20% more minerals relative to highsec facilities. This seems like a rather significant buff. Eve being all about risk/reward balancing, with this large increased reward for nullsec, where is the corresponding increased risk?
(And please don't say "hauling it to nullsec is the risk", as highsec ore haulers are just as possible to blow up, something demonstrated daily in Niarja.)
MDD
The "corresponding increased risk" comes from operating in 0.0, where there is no CONCORD protection, ever-present risk of hot-drops and where stations can be lost to hostiles leaving you locked out of them.
These pre-existing risk factors are what the buffs are intended to help compensate for.
Indeed, many of those risk will increase if industrial activity becomes viable (as opposed to an RP activity), since an increase in the number of vulnerable, valuable hauling vessels will tend to attract an increase in attention from hostiles. So there's your increased risk, if you like. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
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Eodp Ellecon
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
4
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Posted - 2014.04.27 12:58:00 -
[2121] - Quote
I was waiting for this thread to get a Q/A update to the first page like the Manufacture thread did but it hasn't happened. At 100 pages it's certainly TL:DR.
From DevBlog post - "We will alter the skill requirements a bit, and thus Refining Efficiency will now only require Refining at level 4 instead of 5 to train, to allow players to get better yields a bit more easily"
You are simply flattening the learning curve. Meh.
Given you are lowering bar into R.E, what will be the skill requirements for Scrap Metal? Will Metalurgy V still be required (why would it?).
ty |
Jagoff Haverford
Northstar Cabal Tactical Narcotics Team
141
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Posted - 2014.04.27 16:13:00 -
[2122] - Quote
I'm sorry if this has been asked somewhere in the last 100 pages or so, but I'm trying to run some calculations and I can't figure out how the refining implants affect things.
The base refining formula is given in the dev blog plus a bunch of other places on the web, and it's:
Station Equipment + 0.375 x (1 + Refining skill x 0.02) x (1 + Refining Efficiency skill x 0.04) x (1 + Ore Processing skill x 0.05)
The formula with the implant isn't given in the dev blog, but I had figured that the implant would just serve as another multiplier in this formula, so that the whole thing would become:
Station Equipment + 0.375 x (1 + Refining skill x 0.02) x (1 + Refining Efficiency skill x 0.04) x (1 + Ore Processing skill x 0.05) x (1 + Implant modifier)
If you look for the formula on various fan sites and earlier formula posts, this is the formula that is described, albeit without any official confirmation. It also matches all of the existing reprocessing calculators that I can find online (at least the ones that allow you to take implants into account).
The only thing is that this formula doesn't match the table that was provided in the dev blog, as posted here. The table shows the percentages that you would get (prior to the coming expansion) with perfect corporation standings, a 50% facility efficiency, and the 4% refining implant.
So let's say that a player has: Refining to 5, has not trained Refining Efficiency, and, has the Ore Processing skill to 3.
Mathematically, that would be:
rate = 0.500 + [0.375 x 1.100 x 1.000 x 1.150 x 1.040] rate = 0.500 + 0.493 rate = 0.993
So it comes out as 99.3%, and this value matches all of the online calculators that I've checked it against.
On the table posted in the dev blog, though, this condition is shown as 98.9%.
Basically, the dev blog table is accurate when all skills are 0, but has lower values than the formula for all other conditions, getting worse as the skills increase. When all skills are 5, the formula comes out to a refining rate of 114.4%, while the dev blog table shows 113.4%.
I'm thinking it may be some kind of progressive rounding error, much depends on which terms are rounded. It may also be a different kind of math to apply the implant's effects. The in game description of the 4% implant says that it causes a, "4% reduction in refinery waste". So maybe the math is applied to the waste percentage instead of the yield percentage?
If anyone has any ideas here, I'd love to know what I'm doing wrong. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS type X
147
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Posted - 2014.04.27 18:15:00 -
[2123] - Quote
Querns wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:So I spend hundreds of thousands (millions?) of SP and billions of ISK, do to its direct relationship to SP' s to then ignore that investment and turn over my reprocessing to someone else?
Or I give up millions in lost missioning efficiency by using a jump clone?
I am what I call a no-lifer and play 10-13 hours a day. No thanks on both these weak ISK losing options, CCP just needs to make the implant option I asked for and "grandfather" existing players there is too much risk and SP' s at stake. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention -- you don't even need the +4% implant to refine scrap metal. The implant no longer affects your efficiency.
Thanks for the heads up, i didnt notice that in the write-up.
cheers! Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really. |
Maldiro Selkurk
CHEMO IMMUNO RESISTANT VIRUS type X
147
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Posted - 2014.04.27 18:58:00 -
[2124] - Quote
Querns wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:So I spend hundreds of thousands (millions?) of SP and billions of ISK, do to its direct relationship to SP' s to then ignore that investment and turn over my reprocessing to someone else?
Or I give up millions in lost missioning efficiency by using a jump clone?
I am what I call a no-lifer and play 10-13 hours a day. No thanks on both these weak ISK losing options, CCP just needs to make the implant option I asked for and "grandfather" existing players there is too much risk and SP' s at stake. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention -- you don't even need the +4% implant to refine scrap metal. The implant no longer affects your efficiency.
Maldiro is also my ore refining pilot. I have a mining alt but he only has the skills to mine Pyro IV and Veld IV. The reason for this is Maldiro was my first pilot and was a miner when he started so since perfect refining was possible, I just keep putting SPs into ore refining to both be able to refine ore and scrap metal.
I restate that the only real solution is to grandfather in all existing players with a RE-90 refining plug that functions like the plug that makes your pod golden. Yawn,-á I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1280
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Posted - 2014.04.27 19:20:00 -
[2125] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote: I restate that the only real solution is to grandfather in all existing players with a RE-90 refining plug that functions like the plug that makes your pod golden.
Grandfathering that would give old pilots an advantage a new player could never match. That's a terrible plan. Just accept your skills are different. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1164
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Posted - 2014.04.27 20:06:00 -
[2126] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Nullsec facilities will be able to yield roughly 20% more minerals relative to highsec facilities. This seems like a rather significant buff. Eve being all about risk/reward balancing, with this large increased reward for nullsec, where is the corresponding increased risk?
(And please don't say "hauling it to nullsec is the risk", as highsec ore haulers are just as possible to blow up, something demonstrated daily in Niarja.)
MDD So let me get this straight: you believe that highsec has the greater risk already, so it should therefore have the greater reward? Or perhaps you at least believe that the risk between them is equal? Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
425
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Posted - 2014.04.27 22:05:00 -
[2127] - Quote
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:Querns wrote:Maldiro Selkurk wrote:So I spend hundreds of thousands (millions?) of SP and billions of ISK, do to its direct relationship to SP' s to then ignore that investment and turn over my reprocessing to someone else?
Or I give up millions in lost missioning efficiency by using a jump clone?
I am what I call a no-lifer and play 10-13 hours a day. No thanks on both these weak ISK losing options, CCP just needs to make the implant option I asked for and "grandfather" existing players there is too much risk and SP' s at stake. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention -- you don't even need the +4% implant to refine scrap metal. The implant no longer affects your efficiency. Maldiro is also my ore refining pilot. I have a mining alt but he only has the skills to mine Pyro IV and Veld IV. The reason for this is Maldiro was my first pilot and was a miner when he started so since perfect refining was possible, I just keep putting SPs into ore refining to both be able to refine ore and scrap metal. I restate that the only real solution is to grandfather in all existing players with a RE-90 refining plug that functions like the plug that makes your pod golden. It's not going to happen, sorry. The whole point of these changes is to make refining its own profession that you have to train for separately. It is not considered a "right" to have perfect refines, and never was. It was just so easy to train for before that folks like you have come to view it as your entitlement.
You have two options: 1) Train the skills. B) Accept sub-standard refines, and perhaps sell wares on the open market instead of needlessly vertically integrating your business. Really, no one is gonna know if you just sell refinables and buy minerals with them to build stuff. It's okay. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Jethrow Toralen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2014.04.28 09:28:00 -
[2128] - Quote
With one of the benefits of the new 55% reproc max being that Extra Materials will be unnecessary in Bills of Materials, does this mean that all materials will be treated equally for skills that reduce wastage and for the effect of ME? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1288
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Posted - 2014.04.28 10:23:00 -
[2129] - Quote
Jethrow Toralen wrote:With one of the benefits of the new 55% reproc max being that Extra Materials will be unnecessary in Bills of Materials, does this mean that all materials will be treated equally for skills that reduce wastage and for the effect of ME? Short answer yes. Long answer wait for the blog on ME levels since they are doing some changes there also. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1288
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Posted - 2014.04.28 10:29:00 -
[2130] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:So let me get this straight: you believe that highsec has the greater risk already, so it should therefore have the greater reward? Or perhaps you at least believe that the risk between them is equal? If we assume equal refining between the areas. Nullsec still has greater reward because it has better ore, high end ore, moon goo, better PI production by huge orders and infinite ore in a single system. However what Equal refining means is that 1 unit of an identical ore has the same production value for null & high. While Null having better refining gives it yet another advantage on top of all the others it has to start with. And one that makes it able to produce ships significantly 'cheaper' than Highsec possibly can.
It's not about the 'one' advantage. It's about all the advantages accumulating into a massive tower. Because it's a cumulative effect it also won't show immediately and by the time it does show if Null has too much advantage it will have been running for a long time and be too late to fix easily. If Null need more low end minerals and importing compressed ore is too hard, then the correct fix is to increase low ends availability in Null by mixing in things like more dense Veld asteroids into the Industrial Anoms. (Or just mining the Veld in the belts)
In short, the refining difference is the wrong approach to rewards. |
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