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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6682
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:08:00 -
[241] - Quote
Alp Khan wrote:Weaselior wrote:a mere 200 days to max out refining skills :suicide: Which is why that particular change is ridiculous in that aspect. And even with those perfect skills, you will stil need perfect standings on top of the necessity to use a reprocessing implant to net the same yield you can in empire space right now. This is not an example of good design, as it places another tremendous barrier of entry to a young player who would like to get involved with mining and industry in the empire space. a newbie mining in empire space doesn't need arknor V or any of the other highends that don't spawn in highsec, which are most of the 200 days for me
veld V is 3d Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
126
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:08:00 -
[242] - Quote
You'd better let the worldwide aluminium can industry know that recycling used aluminium cans to reuse the aluminium is exactly the same as mining ore and using furnaces to make the aluminium. Also that recycling doesn't save energy or resources.
Oh dear. I am a sarcastic ***** today. |
Otto Kring
Imperial Guardians Spaceship Samurai
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:09:00 -
[243] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Isn't this going to hit new players income streams?
We all know that a lot of them make money from mining, processing and then selling the minerals or making stuff. If we undermine their ability to do this how many of them are going to stay around and get more into the game?
But lets be honest this is just another attempt by CCP to undermine the economic viability of high sec and solo industry and force people into corps and specifically into low and null sec.
And it will always fail because the people who this change will hit most are the ones who would never go into null sec in the first place. I.E, new players without the skills or people who don't want to log on ever day.
Maybe the newbros will burn Jita? If over 1,000+ of them protest they can hold up a system in tidi hell. Rise up newbros if you are unhappy! Or just log off :( . |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6682
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:12:00 -
[244] - Quote
One thing though, I'm concerned about compression in highsec needing a POS. The issue is that when you're transporting to a pos, you can't outsource: I have to do the hauling myself instead of courier contracts or the like. That puts a big dampner on the ability of compression to get done and done well, which has a real risk of throwing wrenches in the gears of nullsec industry as compression just can't keep up. I think it would make more sense for compression to be a station activity (though in station perhaps it does take time). Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:12:00 -
[245] - Quote
Marcia en Welle wrote:Sir HyperChrist wrote:Again, it destroys my
....
I'll find you at fanfest :)
-Chris Right now capital building is probably too easy. The only effect will be that capital ships will increase in price. This will hurt buyers more than sellers I would assume. (theoretically)
Yup, I'm enough an entrepeneur to stock up on minerals and ships for now, and wait for the price hike, then see where the new shipprices settle to sell my stocks. After that I can always decide to continue the 425mm gun compressions at 50% loss of minerals :)
Would nullsec like it if their empire supply of capitals doubles in price? It just might happen.... |
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
24
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:14:00 -
[246] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:One thing though, I'm concerned about compression in highsec needing a POS. The issue is that when you're transporting to a pos, you can't outsource: I have to do the hauling myself instead of courier contracts or the like. That puts a big dampner on the ability of compression to get done and done well, which has a real risk of throwing wrenches in the gears of nullsec industry as compression just can't keep up. I think it would make more sense for compression to be a station activity (though in station perhaps it does take time).
hey, thats a big part of my point ! :) |
Orion Guardian
202
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:15:00 -
[247] - Quote
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:You'd better let the worldwide aluminium can industry know that recycling used aluminium cans to reuse the aluminium is exactly the same as mining ore and using furnaces to make the aluminium. Also that recycling doesn't save energy or resources. Oh dear. I am a sarcastic ***** today.
Well if you could take a Mobile phone and get all the rare earth metals and oher elements back out of it and perhaps even reuse the plastic so you wouldn't need all the oil to make new....THEN you can make that metaphor work. Even taking 2 phones "reprocessing" them to build 2 more would be quite a challenge in the real world...
Aluminium Cans are 95% aluminium....there is nearly no reprocessing needed....jeez |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1237
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:15:00 -
[248] - Quote
Quote:1) area-buy ores. The miners will have to learn that ores are more valuable than minerals! 2) haul those ores to a station in a system with a pos: 1 veld has a size of 0.1 m3, and contains 3 trit, so 0.033 m3/trit, which is triple the volume as veld, so triple empire haulage! 3) haul all those ores to a high-sec pos. tough to get, corp standings etc: can I buy corp standing for this, like people can now buy concord standing for pvp-ing in highsec? 4) Manually haul ores and compress: we often have more than 1 stack of trit, due to the 2-B unit limit, so I expect 30+ freighter hauls if it were trit, 60 freighter hauls carrying the veld! 5) haul the compressed ores back to station 6) about 50% more JF jumps, due to decreased compression compared to guns 7) jump to lowsec station, dock and unload 8) Haul the compressed ores to a low-sec pos for refining Extra risk 9) haul the refined minerals back to station 30 freighter hauls in lowsec 10) build capital comps and ships 11) sell them
you make things waaaaaaay to complicated.
1) area buy COMPRESSED ORES. the miners will also learn that compressed ores are much cooler than uncompressed. 2) haul ore to your jumpout 3) jump ores to lowsec (or even better, nullsec) 4) build capital components and ships 5) sell them GRRR Goons |
Kollyn
Inferno Technologies Fatal Ascension
3
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:15:00 -
[249] - Quote
I'm the only one who think thats bad for Mission runners and 0.0 ratting income?
When you lower the Reprocessing bei so much?
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JackEuchre
Order Collective The Obsidian Front
19
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Posted - 2014.03.20 18:15:00 -
[250] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Paul Otichoda wrote:
We all know that a lot of them make money from mining, processing and then selling the minerals or making stuff. If we undermine their ability to do this how many of them are going to stay around and get more into the game?
which really is by far the most boring activity in eve. i guess more people quit because mining is boring than anything else. (sadly) there are plenty people around that will buy ore or support newbie miners in mining corps. Yes but it is probably the most profitable thing a new player can do when they just start out, they're introduced very early on in the tutorials and they give them a good stable income (about 2 million an hour) while their training up for other stuff like combat ships. If they aren't making much money then their going to give up. Did you miss the part where base ore values are being increased to compensate? The blog makes it very clear that reducing mining income is not an intended result. Alhough obviously not quite clear enough.
Maybe you missed the part where HS refining is being reduced for a Max Skilled pilot to 72.6% and a noob to 52%. Newer players are going to be even more encouraged to sell their ore instead of refining as refining for anyone short of max skills (which takes quite a bit of time to get) is a waste of time. |
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Alp Khan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:16:00 -
[251] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Alp Khan wrote:Weaselior wrote:a mere 200 days to max out refining skills :suicide: Which is why that particular change is ridiculous in that aspect. And even with those perfect skills, you will stil need perfect standings on top of the necessity to use a reprocessing implant to net the same yield you can in empire space right now. This is not an example of good design, as it places another tremendous barrier of entry to a young player who would like to get involved with mining and industry in the empire space. a newbie mining in empire space doesn't need arknor V or any of the other highends that don't spawn in highsec, which are most of the 200 days for me veld V is 3d
Add every reprocessing skill related to empire spawning ores to V, their dependents/prerequisites to the queue and you are seeing an increased burden even for a newbie miner or an industrialist. For seasoned players like you, the extra burden CCP intends to place is only worse as you have correctly stated before.
And the new guy won't even be able to attain maximum efficiency unless he trains up for Cybernetics IV and keeps a %4 reprocessing implant plugged in consistently in empire space.
Currently, the new guy is already burdened with attaining good corp and faction standings (which he will need to grind a lot of missions to attain with sufficient combat related skills or pay for someone else to grind for him) on top of the current necessary reprocessing skills required to be trained for efficiency.
This is ridiculous and indicates to me that CCP's grand vision is problematically aligned with milking the existing player base for increased revenue rather than getting new players into the fold. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
198
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:16:00 -
[252] - Quote
This change is highly unlikely to seriously affect the income streams of new players who mine. As written in the devblog, unrefined ore is going to be a LOT more useful to anyone needing minerals than the actual minerals will be, because already-refined minerals will no longer be compressible. New players simply need to sell their ore (or compress it themselves; anchoring 3 is not a particularly long train) to buyers in a trade hub who have the refining skills to get maximum profit from the ore. Heck, I am toying with the idea of bulk purchasing compressed ore in highsec, shipping it to nullsec, refining it at an alliance T3 minmatar outpost, then selling the minerals at a profit. You can be damned sure that I'm going to be willing to purchase the ore from these supposed "new" miners for far more isk than any empire reprocesser is going to be able to stomach. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Quintana Roo
Common Sense Ltd Nulli Secunda
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:17:00 -
[253] - Quote
Does this mean capital modules will have their volumes adjusted to a more reasonable level now? |
Marcia en Welle
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:19:00 -
[254] - Quote
Hmm. is it just me or does anyone else think scrap metal processing needs a slight buff. Obviously not a the stupid 100% levels, although 55% with max skills seems trivial, I don't think anything will be worth reprocessing, and the scrap metal skill just adds a miniscule 5% extra, it should at least add 10%. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
198
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:19:00 -
[255] - Quote
Quintana Roo wrote:Does this mean capital modules will have their volumes adjusted to a more reasonable level now? Unlikely; then you could carry more types of capital modules for combat refitting. The current values are necessary to minimize this. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Findell Ronuken
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:19:00 -
[256] - Quote
Because you are changing the ever loving **** out of the reprocessing skills and making more then half of them dead weight you should change the training time on them way down because there are no where near as useful as they once were.
It is also wrong the an implant should be required to get 100% refines because the only reason to use implants right now is to get 100% refines in null. |
Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
25
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:20:00 -
[257] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Quote:1) area-buy ores. The .... 6) about 50% more JF jumps, due to decreased compression compared to guns 7) jump to lowsec station, dock and unload 8) Haul the compressed ores to a low-sec pos for refining Extra risk 9) haul the refined minerals back to station 30 freighter hauls in lowsec 10) build capital comps and ships 11) sell them
you make things waaaaaaay to complicated. 1) area buy COMPRESSED ORES. the miners will also learn that compressed ores are much cooler than uncompressed. 2) haul ore to your jumpout 3) jump ores to lowsec (or even better, nullsec) 4) build capital components and ships 5) sell them
you forget my currect lowsec todo-list: have to reprocess at pos: it's 54/50 = 108% better yield but yes, that's one step I might just skip :)
However for the first part: if I area-buy compressed ores, someone else is doing the same tedious stuff, which makes it more expensive. Most miners don't have a pos, as mining is mostly for newer players, so the compressing will fall onto older,. better trained, better standings, richer corps, like mine. (Please I already have had enough wars, I just wait them out, so don't bother :) The end result is the same. |
Findell Ronuken
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:22:00 -
[258] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:One thing though, I'm concerned about compression in highsec needing a POS. The issue is that when you're transporting to a pos, you can't outsource: I have to do the hauling myself instead of courier contracts or the like. That puts a big dampner on the ability of compression to get done and done well, which has a real risk of throwing wrenches in the gears of nullsec industry as compression just can't keep up. I think it would make more sense for compression to be a station activity (though in station perhaps it does take time). They should just use their stupid new depolyables system for their fitting arrays and all the other hot garbage for these compression arrays if they want people to use them otherwise its just a wasted system. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6683
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:22:00 -
[259] - Quote
Sir HyperChrist wrote: However for the first part: if I area-buy compressed ores, someone else is doing the same tedious stuff, which makes it more expensive. The end result is the same.
you pay them part of the profit from your better refines, and you both profit Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1237
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:22:00 -
[260] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:One thing though, I'm concerned about compression in highsec needing a POS. The issue is that when you're transporting to a pos, you can't outsource: I have to do the hauling myself instead of courier contracts or the like. That puts a big dampner on the ability of compression to get done and done well, which has a real risk of throwing wrenches in the gears of nullsec industry as compression just can't keep up. I think it would make more sense for compression to be a station activity (though in station perhaps it does take time).
what about outsourcing by simply buying compressed ore ? GRRR Goons |
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Alp Khan
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:24:00 -
[261] - Quote
Querns wrote:This change is highly unlikely to seriously affect the income streams of new players who mine. As written in the devblog, unrefined ore is going to be a LOT more useful to anyone needing minerals than the actual minerals will be, because already-refined minerals will no longer be compressible. New players simply need to sell their ore (or compress it themselves; anchoring 3 is not a particularly long train) to buyers in a trade hub who have the refining skills to get maximum profit from the ore. Heck, I am toying with the idea of bulk purchasing compressed ore in highsec, shipping it to nullsec, refining it at an alliance T3 minmatar outpost, then selling the minerals at a profit. You can be damned sure that I'm going to be willing to purchase the ore from these supposed "new" miners for far more isk than any empire reprocesser is going to be able to stomach.
A POS in empire space is quite out of reach for a new guy. The fuel costs, the necessity to provide a form of security (hire mercs, recruit combat oriented pilots which is an increased risk by itself, or train your combat skills up) against war declarations, necessity of considerable amounts of faction standings to be able to anchor are quite difficult problems for a new guy to tackle down.
A newbie miner already has a great incentive to sell the raw ore to make a profit, as they tend to focus on actual mining and core skills rather than refining skills. Current mechanic already requires you to have good corp/faction standings on top of good refining skills. This change will make attaining ideal efficiency even more difficult. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14177
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:24:00 -
[262] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Alp Khan wrote:Weaselior wrote:a mere 200 days to max out refining skills :suicide: Which is why that particular change is ridiculous in that aspect. And even with those perfect skills, you will stil need perfect standings on top of the necessity to use a reprocessing implant to net the same yield you can in empire space right now. This is not an example of good design, as it places another tremendous barrier of entry to a young player who would like to get involved with mining and industry in the empire space. a newbie mining in empire space doesn't need arknor V or any of the other highends that don't spawn in highsec, which are most of the 200 days for me veld V is 3d
Oh you with your "facts"
1 Kings 12:11
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Sir HyperChrist
Persnickety Pilots
25
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:25:00 -
[263] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Sir HyperChrist wrote: However for the first part: if I area-buy compressed ores, someone else is doing the same tedious stuff, which makes it more expensive. The end result is the same.
you pay them part of the profit from your better refines, and you both profit
We both lose compared to the current game...... |
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
313
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:25:00 -
[264] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:mynnna wrote:Any highsec miner whines that CCP is nerfing you, I'm siccing Miniluv on you. You do that anyway. And I called this huge attack on high sec for the last patch. Guess I was just off by 6 months. Every high sec mission runner just got totally screwed by you and the rest of your cartel buddies. Well actually a lot of hi-sec mission runners blitz and don't bother looting. However I did strongly represent that this change disproportionately affects new low-skill players who derive a larger percentage of their mission income from the loot value. You'll have to wait for a later blog to see what will be done about this. Speaking as a missioner that doesn't blitz, I get probably a third of my income from good meta1-4 drops. I keep meta 4's to outfit kitchen sink ships. I reprocess anything worth <30k isk per unit, and use it to make manufacture ammo. Everything else sells.
I even trained up my industry alt to be a solid refiner. This change is going to hurt both sides of that equation. |
Axl Borlara
T.R.I.A.D
70
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:27:00 -
[265] - Quote
strikethree wrote: Ultimately, this game will NOT survive if it is all about alliances and null sec. You need casual players. Lots of them. Stop trying to turn us away by removing the ability to get resources. Actually *think* about what it is like for us. We can not mine for 6 hours a day. We can not run dozens of a missions a day. We can not run alliances out in null (we can barely even participate in any of the battles!). Think about us please.
Casual players can join corps which accept casual players. You get advantages of being in a corp and can still play by yourself. You may not even need to talk to your corpmates. You can do your 30mins of mining at the weekend, sell to the corp and probably make more than you would by yourself.
None of which is particularly relevant to the changes in this devblog.
Having said that, "We can not run alliances out in null" seems to be coming from someone who is a member of a null sec alliance! (after very quick googling - I'm not good on the politics side of things).
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14177
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:29:00 -
[266] - Quote
Aeril Malkyre wrote:Malcanis wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:mynnna wrote:Any highsec miner whines that CCP is nerfing you, I'm siccing Miniluv on you. You do that anyway. And I called this huge attack on high sec for the last patch. Guess I was just off by 6 months. Every high sec mission runner just got totally screwed by you and the rest of your cartel buddies. Well actually a lot of hi-sec mission runners blitz and don't bother looting. However I did strongly represent that this change disproportionately affects new low-skill players who derive a larger percentage of their mission income from the loot value. You'll have to wait for a later blog to see what will be done about this. Speaking as a missioner that doesn't blitz, I get probably a third of my income from good meta1-4 drops. I keep meta 4's to outfit kitchen sink ships. I reprocess anything worth <30k isk per unit, and use it to make manufacture ammo. Everything else sells. I even trained up my industry alt to be a solid refiner. This change is going to hurt both sides of that equation.
Well it's worth remembering that you're not losing all of that loot income. And your bounty, mission reward, LP, special drops, etc will remain.
Further, if this change is significant enough to reduce that income, it's significant enough to reduce the mineral supply, so price changes will partly compensate.
Additionally fewer people will loot, reducing the loot supply.
Essentially, there will be some compensating effects.
1 Kings 12:11
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6683
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:29:00 -
[267] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote: what about outsourcing by simply buying compressed ore ?
I am concerned that with it being pos-only the supply may not match the demand. Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6683
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:30:00 -
[268] - Quote
Sir HyperChrist wrote:Weaselior wrote:Sir HyperChrist wrote: However for the first part: if I area-buy compressed ores, someone else is doing the same tedious stuff, which makes it more expensive. The end result is the same.
you pay them part of the profit from your better refines, and you both profit We both lose compared to the current game...... you just admitted you gain by your increased yield Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2487
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:33:00 -
[269] - Quote
Raquel Smith wrote:Bienator II wrote:Quote:Any item not part of the two categories mentioned earlier (like ships and modules) will only be affected by the Scrapmetal Processing skil so please disconnect the scrapmetal skill from the other dependencies. New players should not have to waste SP on ore reprocessing skills to be able rise efficiency of module reprocessing. I did this many, many years ago to get access to Scrapmetal Processing. What a kick in the teeth.
yeah same here. Its one of the skills i am 100% sure i will never need once the change is made since i simple don't mine. Just fix it for the new players at least eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Findell Ronuken
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2014.03.20 18:33:00 -
[270] - Quote
Well this is going to be a giant nerf to alchemy unless you make them always give the same yield no matter skills/location because you can no longer get 100% or even close to it because it has no ore skill. |
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