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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
419
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 11:48:00 -
[1051] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Education. Its a wonderful thing. Proven once again. I know. Modality does wonders to language.
From someone who thinks sampling in this context is the same as standing at a supermarket cheese sampling stand, that just further proves my point.
By your logic, Putin/Obama/Random African dictator all can lay claim to represent your interest. Your ignorance is staggering. Im already planning and funding my trip to next years Fanfest just to see who you really are
@Flashbang. Dont skill it. Find someone with existing skill set to do it for you. Also in terms of ice/ore, you can use POS to circumvent skill requirements for comparable efficiency in future. . |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20217
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 11:56:00 -
[1052] - Quote
Avon wrote:Ah, I see the source of your confusion. You are mixing up statistical representation with elected representatives.
You could probably even fool some people with that. Clever bit of sophism there. Actually, what I'm saying is this:
The 14% that vote can be a fully representative cross-section of the entire EVE population. The council they vote for therefore can end up representing the entire population just on that basis alone GÇö even the parts that didn't vote for whatever reason. On top of that, the members can set their GÇ£affiliationGÇ¥ (for the lack of a better term) aside and collect and represent the voices of those who didn't vote for them, specifically. So yes, the CSM can indeed represent everyone, including the disenfranchised and those who voted in opposition of the final council. Categorically saying that they cannot is spectacularly false.
Again, the can/must/is differentiation is key here.
Can they do all that? Of course. Must it be the case that they do all that? Of course not. Is it the case that all of that happens? Who knowsGǪ we have to study the sample and the actions of everyone involved to find out.
What we can't do is dismiss it all out of hand. I'm not confused, nor am I employing sophism. If anything, I'm being overly precise at which point Salvos GÇö as always GÇö gets all tangled up in his own imprecisions, misrepresentations, and straw men.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:From someone who thinks sampling in this context is the same as standing at a supermarket cheese sampling stand, that just further proves my point. Good thing, then, that it's not from someone like that.
Stop attributing your logic (or, more accurately, lack thereof) to other people. Also, stop relying on strawmen, ad hominems, red herrings, and all the other fallacies you spew all over the place. Instead, learn to read and learn to respond to the actual posts people make. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2768
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Posted - 2014.03.24 11:58:00 -
[1053] - Quote
while we're making bonkers arguments with as little evidence as possible:
while csm voting included the option to abstain, less than one percent of voters chose to abstain with the number decreasing each year
since the vote is voluntary, the people who abstained surely must dislike the csm
therefore the other ninety-nine percent surely do not dislike the csm's representation?
as i said. while we're making unsubstantiated claims, i'll make mine, too |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
419
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:00:00 -
[1054] - Quote
@Tippia: Prove the CSM council elected by 14% of the population, represents the entire population. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20217
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:02:00 -
[1055] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:@Tippia: Prove the CSM council elected by 14% of the population, represents the entire population. Why should I? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2768
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:02:00 -
[1056] - Quote
does an elected representative have a mandate to represent the non-voting population
why the hell does this matter anyway |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
3352
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Posted - 2014.03.24 12:04:00 -
[1057] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:does an elected representative have a mandate to represent the non-voting population
why the hell does this matter anyway
It matters because Grr, Goons. At least, that's as far as I can tell. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á
Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2768
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:04:00 -
[1058] - Quote
oh christ on a bike this derail began with 'let's assume a csm is leaking info because because, guys'
how about the insane idiot who made that claim proves it before we start demanding anyone proves anything
OH RIGHT IT WAS DINSDALE |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20217
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Posted - 2014.03.24 12:05:00 -
[1059] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:does an elected representative have a mandate to represent the non-voting population Very often, yes. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
3352
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:06:00 -
[1060] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:oh christ on a bike this derail began with 'let's assume a csm is leaking info because because, guys'
how about the insane idiot who made that claim proves it before we start demanding anyone proves anything
OH RIGHT IT WAS DINSDALE
Yeah, who needs proof when you can make vague insinuations that you never have to back up with facts? That's the best part of conspiracy theories, silly Benny. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á
Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
419
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:07:00 -
[1061] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:@Tippia: Prove the CSM council elected by 14% of the population, represents the entire population. Why should I?
Then there is no grounds to claim that it does.
Checkmate again. |
Avon
188
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Posted - 2014.03.24 12:07:00 -
[1062] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Actually, what I'm saying is this:
The 14% that vote can be a fully representative cross-section of the entire EVE population.
I know what you are saying, I'm just pointing out that you are wrong.
All they can be is representative of the subset group "people who vote". It's just basic statistics.
HOWEVER,
If you said: "Under a democratic system of elected representatives which accepts a 14% turnout as a legitimate threshold, the views of the representatives are an indication of the mindset of the electorate as a whole." I would agree. That's democracy.
Any link between the two is a fallacy.
Politics and statistics are two very different things. The truth is mathematics; fortunately politics is not about truth.
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Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2770
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:08:00 -
[1063] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:oh christ on a bike this derail began with 'let's assume a csm is leaking info because because, guys'
how about the insane idiot who made that claim proves it before we start demanding anyone proves anything
OH RIGHT IT WAS DINSDALE Yeah, who needs proof when you can make vague insinuations that you never have to back up with facts? That's the best part of conspiracy theories, silly Benny. vOv little does he know CCP is just a CIA false front that accidentally became succesful |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20217
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:09:00 -
[1064] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Then there is no grounds to claim that it does. GǪwhich I never did. This is why your insistence on using straw men instead of actual arguments, and on relying on hope rather than actually reading what people write, continuously leads you astray.
Avon wrote:I know what you are saying, I'm just pointing out that you are wrong.
All they can be is representative of the subset group "people who vote". GǪexcept that they can be representative of everyone, depending on the representativeness of that subset and depending on how they then go about collecting issues for consideration. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Avon
188
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Posted - 2014.03.24 12:10:00 -
[1065] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:@Tippia: Prove the CSM council elected by 14% of the population, represents the entire population. Why should I?
Heh, what did I say before about holding other people to a higher standard?
Go on, indulge us. Post your proof. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20217
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:12:00 -
[1066] - Quote
Avon wrote:Heh, what did I say before about holding other people to a higher standard?
Go on, indulge us. Post your proof. That's just it: I never claimed that they did represent the entire population, only that they can. Exactly how that can be done has already been explained, and you can indulge in it at will. So my response to what you said about higher standards still stands.
Can Gëá must Gëá is. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
419
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:13:00 -
[1067] - Quote
You claim that the CSM, which was elected by only 14% of the population CAN represent the entirety of the population.
Prove it. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20217
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:15:00 -
[1068] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:You claim that the CSM, which was elected by only 14%, of the population CAN represent the entirety of the population.
Prove it. Already done. Learn to read.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Avon
188
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Posted - 2014.03.24 12:16:00 -
[1069] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Avon wrote:Heh, what did I say before about holding other people to a higher standard?
Go on, indulge us. Post your proof. That's just it: I never claimed that they did represent the entire population, only that they can. Exactly how that can be done has already been explained, and you can indulge in it at will. So my response to what you said about higher standards still stands. Can Gëá must Gëá is.
And, once more, you are wrong.
It isn't a case of Can Gëá must Gëá is; just can't.
Your extrapolation can only ever apply to the subset sampled.
It isn't even a complicated point. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
3352
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:16:00 -
[1070] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:You claim that the CSM, which was elected by only 14%, of the population CAN represent the entirety of the population. Prove it.
To disprove a *can* statement, you basically have to empirically prove that it cannot.
It is within the realm of possibility, you must admit. Otherwise the burden of proof is on you to disprove such a reasonable statement. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á
Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
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arabella blood
Revenant Tactical
197
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Posted - 2014.03.24 12:16:00 -
[1071] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:We represent you all, whether you want us to or not.
But it seems you aren't happy with your current set of representatives, for what I'm sure you try and tell youtself are evidence-based reasons, so I have once again used my CSM time machine and persuaded CCP to hold a yearly event where everyone who cares enough to participate gets a say in who the reps are going to be for the following year.
All you have to do is have your say, and maybe even spend some time encouraging people who agree with you to do the same.
And since there are 14 representatives, you only have to make the 14th most popular choice to get a guy elected. If your demographic is only the 15th most popular amongst people who care, then maybe you're not such an important group after all?
We got you worried eh? Good. After this year of failed CSM i hope all your time is coming to an end.
Troll for hire. Cheap prices. |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
419
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:17:00 -
[1072] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:You claim that the CSM, which was elected by only 14%, of the population CAN represent the entirety of the population.
Prove it. Already done. Learn to read.
I see no proof anywhere.
Nowhere have you proven that a body elected by only 14% of the population, CAN represent the entirety of the population. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
3352
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:18:00 -
[1073] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:You claim that the CSM, which was elected by only 14%, of the population CAN represent the entirety of the population.
Prove it. Already done. Learn to read. I see no proof anywhere. Nowhere have you proven that a body elected by only 14% of the population, CAN represent the entirety of the population.
See, by saying that, you're implying that someone elected by a nullsec group, will represent that group and that group alone, and no other viewpoint or impartiality, whatsoever.
Which quite simply isn't correct. NONE of the CSM toe the party line to anywhere near that degree. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á
Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
419
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:20:00 -
[1074] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:---
Im not implying anything. You are the one deriving implications.
I asked for proof that a body elected by 14% of the population to represent them, CAN represent the entirety of the population. There is no implication there. Its simply a request for proof of her claim. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20217
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:21:00 -
[1075] - Quote
Avon wrote:And, once more, you are wrong.
It isn't a case of Can Gëá must Gëá is; just can't. Prove it. Demonstrate how it is in every way impossible for the sample to be representative. Not just GÇ£it is likely that there is a systematic bias in the subsetGÇ¥ but that it is impossible for the subset to be unbiased.
Quote:Your extrapolation can only ever apply to the subset sampled. GǪand the subset sampled can be representative of the population as a whole. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
419
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:22:00 -
[1076] - Quote
Tippia wrote: Demonstrate how it is in every way impossible for the sample to be representative.
You have not proven that it is possible. Therefore there is no onus to disprove what you could not, and have not, proven to begin with. |
Avon
188
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Posted - 2014.03.24 12:22:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Avon wrote:And, once more, you are wrong.
It isn't a case of Can Gëá must Gëá is; just can't. Prove it. Demonstrate how it is in every way impossible for the sample to be representative. Not just GÇ£it is likely that there is a systematic bias in the subsetGÇ¥ but that it is impossible for the subset to be unbiased. Quote:Your extrapolation can only ever apply to the subset sampled. GǪand the subset sampled can be representative of the population as a whole. Salvos Rhoska wrote:I see no proof anywhere. Then learn to read.
Yeah, and the flying spaghetti monster *may* get elected to the next CSM.
If we are moving from statistics to probability I am well up for that. You may want to take a quick 101 first though. Get back to me when you are ready. |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2770
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:23:00 -
[1078] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Tippia wrote: Demonstrate how it is in every way impossible for the sample to be representative. You have not proven that it is possible. Therefore there is no onus to disprove what you could not, and have not, proven to begin with. might need to look back at the thread to see which claim was made first there |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2770
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 12:24:00 -
[1079] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Well lets be real here. Ofc info is being leaked and ofc people are leveraging change towards their own interests.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Sarah McKnobbo wrote:Why of course? I'm not siding either way, it's just a bit drastic to state out right that that is what's happening, don't you think.
Yes i'm sure, even hope, that people (assuming you mean the CSM) are leveraging it towards thier own interests as that is usually what they are elected on. I have no issue with the CSM system. Nor with info being leaked or interests being leveraged. CSM is afterall merely an advisory counsel, no actual authority or power. Having said that, insider info exploitaiton is the bigger risk than "influencing" CCP. Its arbitrary whether anyone can sway CCP. But the insider info is always extremely valuable. It is important to remember the very small % of the player base that has actually voted for them. Representation is proportional to how many votes they get, and since the overwhelming majority of players have not voted for them, they cannot be said to represent the interests of those who have not voted for them (ie: the overwhelming majority of the EVE player base). If it was up to me, Id disband the CSM in any term where less than 50-51% of the player base has voted. Thats not up to me, and since CSM have no direct power or authority, its not as important. But it cannot be said that they represent the majority interests of players, even combined throughout the entire panel. Thats just a cold hard fact. And it would be naive to think insider info is not leveraged for personal interests, or that counsel to CCP would not be motivated by self interest. No tinfoil hat required on that one and as I said, claiming otherwise is infact tinfoil hattery in and of itself.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
3352
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Posted - 2014.03.24 12:24:00 -
[1080] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:--- Im not implying anything. You are the one deriving implications. I asked for proof that a body elected by 14% of the population to represent them, CAN represent the entirety of the population. There is no implication there. Its simply a request for proof of her claim.
Uh, no.
When you're suggesting that a statement like "it is possible that elected representatives of 14% of the population can represent everyone" (notice how "represent everyone equally" is not part of it) requires proof, I'm not implying anything.
You know what? This has gotten pedantic to the extreme. In before lock. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á
Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
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