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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4498
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Posted - 2014.03.24 01:04:00 -
[151] - Quote
Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time
If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you
I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.
My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space.
Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Anhenka
Daktaklakpak. Red Coat Conspiracy
435
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Posted - 2014.03.24 01:04:00 -
[152] - Quote
A Research Alt wrote:I'd be all over this as soon as AFK cloaking wasn't a thing anymore.
(this is a dumb, bad idea) Let's please not try and tie the absolute minefield that a cloaking mechanic discussion gets into with a discussion of incoming WH sig delays.
Any idea looks reasonable compared to the angry rhetoric that gets thrown around in an AFK cloaking threadnaught. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2075
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Posted - 2014.03.24 01:13:00 -
[153] - Quote
Two step wrote:Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time
If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you
I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space. Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole.
I'm sorry but it's elitists like you that think all WH changes should exist to affect those at the top (C5+ dwellers).
Sub C5 people are not making BILLIONS like they do running cap escalations. A good C2/C3 corp may pull of close to incursion isk/hr once you factor in all of the extra cost and logistics of living in WH space. And that requires lots of static farming, which is already more risky than C5 cap escalations in your home system.
Implementing all of the changes as you say, would render much of Sub C5 space into a ghost town. It's empty enough as it is.
What is wrong with simply rolling back the overlay scanner? People seemed pretty happy for years until that came about.
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Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
51
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Posted - 2014.03.24 01:13:00 -
[154] - Quote
Two step wrote:Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time
If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you
I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space. Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole.
Nine times out of ten if someone rolls into you your caps are stuck in place or scrammed. If you don't have a PvP fleet onstandby or able to get scrambled, then you're probably going to die to a decent group. It's not all that risk free. |
Faxanadu Phantasm
Decimus Corp
3
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Posted - 2014.03.24 01:22:00 -
[155] - Quote
Two step wrote:Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time
If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you
I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space. Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole.
Can you explain how its risk free for us to be locked in a site at the mercy of whoever rolls into us?
Things are on a scale here, and this change moves the scale in a direction towards increased risk associated with earning isk. We're not farmers.. everyone needs to earn isk.. what we are is a small group. When a larger group rolls into us while site running there isnt much we can do as it is. This change just makes it easier for the attacker
So, i object to your assertion that I'm speaking from a standpoint of self-entitlement. Its actually self preservation. I don't see how having additional risk associated with living in a c5 wh will help smaller groups like ours. As it stands, a proper t3 fleet would pose a real threat to our site running fleet.
I should also add that if you're finding it impossible to jump people while site running, you have plenty of time as it stands to dscan down our anom and get a warpin for your fleet - im really not sure why you feel we're operating risk free when we run sites |
MadbaM
Hard Knocks Inc.
74
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Posted - 2014.03.24 01:37:00 -
[156] - Quote
Faxanadu Phantasm your question has already been answered by multiple people in this very thread you should probably read them before posting.
In fact most the people i see posting in this thread that WH space is already to dangerous have hardly lost any ships in it.....
I'd love to know how much ISK is lost in ship losses compared to how much ISK is made in W-Space, im willing to bet there is a HUGE discrepancy. |
TheGreatBelow
The Red Circle Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:41:00 -
[157] - Quote
Christ, this is a horribad idea. This will drive people out of wh space rather than encourage them in.
We need more content. More **** that gets ships out of POSs. I don't care if its mining, running sites, PI, industry - all of it becomes PvP in the end. More people in wspace means more targets. What we need is more reasons for people to want to come.
Oh, but I'll take the scanner back to pre-odyssey as a compromise. Back when scanning meant something. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2683
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:42:00 -
[158] - Quote
I have to disagree with the idea that W-space is too safe. My corp has some W-space dwellers, and it is quite dangerous. Making it more so is not a step in the right direction. I disagree with this idea. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Sith1s Spectre
Sky Fighters Sky Syndicate
786
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 01:58:00 -
[159] - Quote
Love the fact Nullsec gets instant intel with local yet with these proposed changes - WHs can't even keep track of their sigs.
Personally - i'm all for the changes as we run regular hole collapsing fleets, but just comparing it to other truesec areas.
Regards,
Sith Sky Fighters - WH Space Mercs. -áFor more details https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=286708&find=unread
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White Bear Maricadie
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
17
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Posted - 2014.03.24 02:05:00 -
[160] - Quote
I agree with delaying the sig from showing up on the sensor overlay for a minute or two, but if people are scanning with probes out and doing the right thing. Why should they be put at a disadvantage. This change seems like it would only benefit large pvp groups. I think it would have the opposite effect desired. Discouraging people from WH space, if even when they were paying attention and doing the right thing there was no way for them mitigate risk. Furthermore I think this would only lower the bar for larger group's, pandering lower skill instead of rewarding those with high skill. |
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Pseudo Ucksth
B0rthole
170
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:07:00 -
[161] - Quote
I am all for making wormhole space more risky but a ~unavoidable delay~ is unreasonable. There's got to be some way to mitigate it, even if it's just having a dedicated person on probes. Which people should have either way.
Doing this change will result in one of two outcomes: Even more people moving out of wormholes, or corps blobbing together to make wormhole coalitions. Is that what you want? Nullsec politics without stargates?
I went to live in a wormhole to get away from coalitions. I'll have nowhere to go but highsec if they end up in wspace.
Don't do to wspace what you did to lowsec incursions. |
Faxanadu Phantasm
Decimus Corp
4
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Posted - 2014.03.24 02:11:00 -
[162] - Quote
Pseudo Ucksth wrote:I am all for making wormhole space more risky but a ~unavoidable delay~ is unreasonable. There's got to be some way to mitigate it, even if it's just having a dedicated person on probes. Which people should have either way.
Doing this change will result in one of two outcomes: Even more people moving out of wormholes, or corps blobbing together to make wormhole coalitions. Is that what you want? Nullsec politics without stargates?
I went to live in a wormhole to get away from coalitions. I'll have nowhere to go but highsec if they end up in wspace.
Don't do to wspace what you did to lowsec incursions.
This |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
45
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Posted - 2014.03.24 02:15:00 -
[163] - Quote
This is a good change though it's only step one. There has been a lot of environmental damage done by K-Space "improvements" to the habitat of W-Space and more changes need to go in AT THE SAME TIME AS THIS to repair whats happened.
What this thread needs is a history lesson on the changes made to w-space over the years.
Originally all signatures had to be probed, no green sigs for us to warp to straight away. Wormhole K162 signatures appeared when the far side wormhole had warp initiated upon it. You protected yourself by throwing out either core or deep space probes across your whole system, ding the button once and ignore everything. You roll the wormhole (deliberately pushing large mass through it to collapse it) to guarantee that it hasn't been opened by someone and no one will sneak up on you through it. The prober keeps scanning for new sigs, the rest of the fleet dscans for login traps. You get something on either you quickly remove any sleepers keeping you in the site and you head home. Overall pretty safe. There are multiple chances for the defender to discover the threat and leave.
An attacker has to get into system, push off the WH, drop scan probes somewhere not seen (not always possible), get a 100% (ideally in one sweep), yank the probes, create a perch (you can't warp in close straight off unless your ship can take them due to other stuff being around that'll decloak you and scare the target off), drop in next to the defenders and then call in the fleet. All this while hoping that none of the countermeasures listed above got tripped.
It all meant that if you lost your fleet while doing sites, it was your own fault, you wen't doing something right. It took a lot of luck and real skill on the part of the attackers to get a kill.
We then gained the green sigs, this put all the standard anomalies into always 100% anomalies. This was a good change and my bookmark folder thanks you. This did mean that defenders lost a layer of protection, dscan picking up scan probes, but there were other countermeasures so no big deal. The super vulnerable, hackers, miners gas harvesters, were still protected by their sites still needing to be probed.
Then Ore sites became 100%ers too. This pretty much killed off w-space mining. Tracking down a fleet moving among a dozen or more sleeper sites is one thing, tracking down a barge sitting in among 1-3 ore sites is another. If your scan coverage (which you need to reset every hour or so) didn't pick up the new sig, you were gone inside a couple of minutes. Mining barges have zero defence vs an attacker, even the more EHP ones now just die a bit slower. ECM won't save you and your flight of lights isn't going to kill anything before you drop.
Finally we got the Discovery Scanner. No more need to have cover probes out, CCP has you covered instead. Not that the discovery scanner updates at easily identifiable times, though never fear you can force an update by clicking anything in it. If you do get into the system before everyone runs off due to the bright green diamond on their screen, the skill it takes to find people is even less. You used to have to at least BM the site then align to it to get an idea of which site it was with a narrow dscan, now, those sites are already displayed. Nice an easy.
If you're going to change this, you NEED to make Ore sites back to scannable for W-Space. W-Space just got a boost due to the refinery changes, give them the slight safety to actually use it. Don't start the no scan timer on the K162 until someone jumps the WH and make the timer around the 30-60s mark, that's plenty of head start for hunters. Without that we'll loose most of the time just warping to the WH. Give the Discovery Scanner UI a timer to show when t updates or make it update every server tick. It feels like it's broken at the moment. And while you're in there, change the polarisation timer to be something based off the ship hull instead of a flat time for everybody. I'd personally like to see it be based off sensor strength, would give ECCM an additional use.
And finally, thanks for actually looking at W-Space... COme chat in the Wormholes section once in a while |
Kirin Xaxos
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
16
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Posted - 2014.03.24 02:17:00 -
[164] - Quote
I fail to see how this would add content to WH space in the long run. I understand the delay on the sensor overlay. But delay on being able to probe it down? There is already WH mechanisms in place to force content from WH's is called siege. Why lower the skill needed for the gank fleet up the skill needed for the defending fleet? How is that balance? |
Red Teufel
Conflagrated Authority
358
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:17:00 -
[165] - Quote
Dont touch WH space it's the only space that is working. don't punish vigilant players to get ganked with no incentive to fight. this change will only buff large groups in WH space. how about making an in game WH mapping tool to increase the flow of pilots using WHs. |
Align Planet1
Cauldron-Born Legion The Cauldron-Born
27
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Posted - 2014.03.24 02:19:00 -
[166] - Quote
Fozzie:
It would be much better if you would state your goals for these type of changes explicitly, instead of offering euphemisms like "a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience." If you think people are making too much money in WH space with too little risk, you should just say so. Having to parse through a load of BS to get to why we need a "shake up," and what exactly is the "best part of the wormhole experience" is tiresome, and inhibits a straightforward discussion of why the proposed mechanic should exist.
Regards, AP1 |
Pseudo Ucksth
B0rthole
170
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:23:00 -
[167] - Quote
Align Planet1 wrote:It would be much better if you would state your goals for these type of changes explicitly, instead of offering euphemisms
In the ten years I have been playing this game that has not been CCP's MO in around eight. |
Gustava Risalo
Sons of Sarah Kerrigan
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:23:00 -
[168] - Quote
If you think this a wonderful and exciting game play change Fozzie then make it apply to k-space. Make it so when you jump into local in null or low or high sec you are delayed from showing up for 15 minutes. Hell lets take away the gate activation animation and the sound it makes as well. You want to see more ganking/small scale pvp, then do not **** over just wormholes with terrible changes to game mechanics. Apply it to everyone. Hell while you are at it how about allowing people to warp straight to mission runners in acceleration gated areas. You want more pvp don't you? |
md5oogle
Insanely Twisted D3vil's Childr3n
4
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:23:00 -
[169] - Quote
-1 |
Turon Gorp
Sleepless Dynamics. Ixtab.
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:24:00 -
[170] - Quote
in my opinion is the delay mechanism unnatural for reality. apart from this is the mechanism not really impartial and that fact destroying the hole idea behind the sand box stuff.
regards
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Varial Flayer
Wormbro Ocularis Inferno
0
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Posted - 2014.03.24 02:30:00 -
[171] - Quote
ITT: People who think this is a good idea don't live in W-Space.... |
Marlona Sky
D00M. Northern Coalition.
4946
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:30:00 -
[172] - Quote
Pseudo Ucksth wrote:I am all for making wormhole space more risky but a ~unavoidable delay~ is unreasonable. There's got to be some way to mitigate it, even if it's just having a dedicated person on probes. Which people should have either way.
Doing this change will result in one of two outcomes: Even more people moving out of wormholes, or corps blobbing together to make wormhole coalitions. Is that what you want? Nullsec politics without stargates?
I went to live in a wormhole to get away from coalitions. I'll have nowhere to go but highsec if they end up in wspace.
Don't do to wspace what you did to lowsec incursions. What do you mean even more people moving out of wormholes? I was unaware of some mass exodus out of one of the most profitable parts of the game.
And what do you mean by wormhole coalitions? How does this change even remotely promote coalitions? How would a coalition member not already in the same wormhole system respond to aid someone under attack in that system? . |
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
54
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Posted - 2014.03.24 02:33:00 -
[173] - Quote
Varial Flayer wrote:ITT: People who think this is a good idea don't live in W-Space....
or else are in corps which do a lot of ganking siterunning fleets. |
Tyrant Scorn
106
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:33:00 -
[174] - Quote
Delaying signatures from Probe Scans is the worst idea in the history of CCP idea's.
If you are going to make new signatures undetectable, then make new visitors sensor blind... The way the mechanics work right now is fair, the hunter gets an equal chance and the hunted get an equal chance.
Hunted targets are paying attention and spot the new signature, they are actively playing the game and deserve to get away or prepare for a fight.
If the hunted targets are not paying attention and leaving things to chance or playing with a movie on a second screen, they deserve to get caught, simple as daylight !!!
The very same concept goes for the hunter, who, if a skilled D-scanner and active player, can catch targets fairly fast, I can do it in 10 seconds flat and so can any veteran wormholers if they trained themselves in catching targets. Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4501
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:35:00 -
[175] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Two step wrote:Faxanadu Phantasm wrote:
What course of action to you suggest a 10 man c5 corp do to avoid losing all our caps? I personally own 4 and can fly 3 at a time
If youre proposing that I just roll over and die because I should be able to afford to replace them.. I have some rather harsh words for you
I'm sorry, but people like this are part of the f***ing problem. YOU SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO RUN C5 SITES IN NEAR IMMUNITY WITH 10 PEOPLE.My god, the sense of self-entitlement. W-space is not supposed to be friendly. You aren't supposed to be safe, ever. Hell, the escalations were originally supposed to just plain kill anyone who tried to use a cap in w-space. Even with all the possible changes mentioned in the first post, pure farmers would still make plenty of ISK to afford to replace their occasional wipe. Right now, they make billions of ISK nearly risk free, unless someone devotes a significant amount of effort into seeding caps into their hole. I'm sorry but it's elitists like you that think all WH changes should exist to affect those at the top (C5+ dwellers). Sub C5 people are not making BILLIONS like they do running cap escalations. A good C2/C3 corp may pull of close to incursion isk/hr once you factor in all of the extra cost and logistics of living in WH space. And that requires lots of static farming, which is already more risky than C5 cap escalations in your home system. Implementing all of the changes as you say, would render much of Sub C5 space into a ghost town. It's empty enough as it is. What is wrong with simply rolling back the overlay scanner? People seemed pretty happy for years until that came about.
Perhaps you might try reading what I was replying to, or even what I wrote way back on page 1 of this thread. I don't think lower class holes need more safety, though I do think they should have to at least work to get safety, just like they used to have to before the discovery scanner.
The fact of the matter is that the C5/C6 "dwellers" are what are making you so poor in the first place. I put dwellers in quotes because the farming operations are what I am specifically referring to. Many, many groups are farming C5s (mostly) with a small number of alts and making billions of ISK per week. Their risk is quite limited, and the profits are large enough to allow them to even lose a fleet every month and come out ahead.
Also, you are pants-on-head ******** if you think sub-C5 space is a ghost town. I'd say that probably 75% of C2s are occupied, and it is closer to 95% of ones with a static highsec. Sure, C4s are pretty empty, but finding an un-occupied C2 or C1 is pretty rare. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Thead Enco
Killing is Business Get Off My Lawn
108
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Posted - 2014.03.24 02:38:00 -
[176] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. This idea has already been discussed with the CSM, and we don't currently have specific plans to implement it but we think it's at least worth getting discussion started.
We have been thinking about and discussing the way that the Sensor Overlay has affected Wormhole life, mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing (which often indicates that the entry of hostile players may be imminent). We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.
The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.
This would obviously be a very significant change to wormhole mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.
I'd like to repeat that this change is currently not planned for any specific release, but we would like to start community discussion on the idea and see where it goes.
Let us know what you think in this thread, and we'll be watching closely. Thanks! -Fozzie
Were ratting dreads a problem?
-á"A Lannister always pays his debts."
-áTyrion Lannister |
Tyrant Scorn
106
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:39:00 -
[177] - Quote
BTW, there is already a glitch that causes a delay in the scanner overlay and it very much acts as the bookmark delay in corporation bookmarks, sometimes they update instantly and sometimes it takes 5 minutes... Host at Legacy Of A Capsuleer Podcast www.legacyofacapsuleer.com |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4502
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:39:00 -
[178] - Quote
Also, there seem to be a lot of people who think even the largest groups can just form up a blob in less than 5 minutes. If you aren't already rolling holes with the intent to gank site runners, it takes time to get folks formed up. It takes time to identify which anomoly or signature people are at. All this change would do is at a minimum (if the discovery scanner was delayed) require people to put in a small amount of effort (mash scan button) to detect incoming K162s. If you want to make the big bucks, you need to be at big risk, and that simply isn't true right now in C5 space and most of C6 space. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Fruitfly Three
Downloaded Bears Dominatus Atrum Mortis
13
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Posted - 2014.03.24 02:40:00 -
[179] - Quote
Why not disable the sensor overlay all together in W-space? Delaying the sig from showing up even to active scanners looking for new sigs seems to favor the attacking side too heavily. That would give the attacking side more then enough time blob or counter with ECM anything the defending side had before they even knew there was a fight on their hands. I think this change would discourage smaller corps from entering W-space at all. We came to WH space for the challenge. I think it would take much of the pride and feeling of accomplishment from kills if you know the defenders are, from the get go, already at such a disadvantage. |
Powers Sa
971
|
Posted - 2014.03.24 02:43:00 -
[180] - Quote
Seelen Jager wrote:Just go back to having to probe all wormhole sigs. Having some arbitrary delay is just dumb.
lol |
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