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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Icylce
The Chosen 0nes DARKNESS.
26
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:20:00 -
[2791] - Quote
Clara Pond wrote:
Quite right, you have no idea of these things in an MMO. They are a capsuleer name, an alliance ticker, a shiptype. They are a mark, a target. The person you undercut with your market trade may have been on their last ISK and suffering manic depression. Who knows what your callous undercut could trigger? You argue that people are responsible for the jilted lover screaming "if you don't take me back I'll kill myself". People are not responsible for the reactions of others.
-¿ Wrong. Parents are responsible for reactions and actions of their kids. In your example, the ex-lover may be held responsible for not trying to prevent suicide had he known the other person is mentally unstable. Your generalisation is missleading. |
Katkon Darnok
The Scope Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:20:00 -
[2792] - Quote
Dorn Val wrote:I'm really torn on this one....
What Erotoica 1 does in game is not my play style, but at the same time I'm glad that Eve is a sandbox where just about anything goes. I live in a wormhole and enjoy PVP, and I don't discriminate in my target selection -it doesn't matter if you're ready for it or not, if you're a carebear or a dedicated PVPer, the ZOMG-SuprizeButtSecsPVP is coming. I don't care if that was you're ratting Tengu, if I have it locked and pointed it's going to die. You loved that Tengu, spent a lot of your valuable time to acquire it so it has some intrinsic value even if it is just pixels, and I took it away from you and didn't care how you felt about it. So at the end of the day just how far removed am I, or anyone else who plays Eve, from Erotica 1?...
Quite honestly, how you play - as you've described it - is not the issue. I personally don't enjoy or support ganking, but this thread wouldn't have come about if it involved ganking or a run-of-the-mill scam. It came about because the scammers bullied the target on a call (making fun of his speech impediment), recorded said call and posted it online for all the world to hear. THAT's what this thread is really about. |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2425
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:21:00 -
[2793] - Quote
Chribba wrote: One difference between your young(tm) type bullying and current online(tm) type bullying, is that it's way way way harder to actually do something about it. Classic face to face bullying, you could try fight back by punching some sense into someone. It's much harder to smack someone in the face when they're anonymous behind a screen in a different country and can keep on doing stuff. So I wouldn't call it fair to compare the two types as if they were equal. But I fully understand your point.
That is definitely a particularly insidious aspect of cyberbullying, however if you want to call what's happening in the bonus room "cyberbullying," then that aspect is not at play in this situation, because as far as we know, erotica1 does not harass "clients" after the bonus round has ended. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Krants
Perkone Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:21:00 -
[2794] - Quote
Capt Starfox wrote:Krants wrote:I hope that CCP comes down hard on this. If not outright banning perpetrators then at least modifying EULA in a way so this would be considered a major offence in the future.
I've got 2 problems with the whole bonus room concept: 1. It uses EvE ecosystem as a honeypot. It filters out the weak and susceptible so that they could be coer... persuaded to join out of game voice comms. 2. They use TS, an out of game, unsupervised and unpoliced solution, to abuse victims for hours and hours. If you recollect two weeks ago CCP contacted a law enforcement to possibly prevent a suicide. Why? Because a player had announced in local chat that he'd blow his brains out. It was all it took for CCP to intervene. Now with this TS "bonus room" we've got an unsupervised system that consist of a victim and X number of perpetrators who's main goal is to make emotional abuse last as long as possible. And they will do what is necessary to debase the victim psychologically so that he/she would break for the lulz. Do you believe that "bonus room" perpetrators would contact CCP or law enforcement if a victim would threaten self-harm, like really?
You can scam all you want in EvE sandbox, but the moment you use EvE as a tool for out of game coercion your rights for "emergent gameplay" should end. Because you can't handle Eve Online and need CCP to hold your hand?? You fail so miserably to see that all participants chose to stay and in no way were forced against their will to continue.
It's not about handling Eve, it's about using Eve to get players who are in vulnerable position (loss of assets) to out of game and unsupervised system.
If you don't think that it falls under coercion and victims could have left every moment please do a following "bonus room" experiment: 1. Use Eve as a honeypot to get a one player's most of the assets transferred to you 2. Offer them a way to get assets back, all it takes is to join out of game communications systems. 3. Start slow, ask them to sing, read etc. 4. In time escalate and ask them a nude picture of themselves or a small webcam clip with upper body uncovered and something written on it to prove that it is legit. Btw tell them that it is voluntary and they can leave should they wish at any point of time
Now if you live in NA or Europe and the victim decides to contact law enforcement you will be charged with a minimum of sexual assault with coercion and maybe cyberbullying too if they have specific laws. I wonder how many CEOGÇÖs have used GÇ£she could have walked awayGÇ¥ defense in courts after they had put their secretaries to a fact GÇô have coitus with me or pack your things. |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
678
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:22:00 -
[2795] - Quote
This is only one of many many Bonus Rounds. And even though he states he knew it at the end it at the end, that does not obviate the requirement to ask him FIRST, properly, for both the right to record him and to distribute it.
Can you guarantee that in every one the participant was PROPERLY and LEGALLY informed and asked for consent to be recorded, and for the distribution of the recordings? Can you? |
Lucretia DeWinter
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
116
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:24:00 -
[2796] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:There are real people going to sleep at night with empty bellies and no roof over their heads, but God forbid you white knight freaks of nature doing anything about that, because:
"OH NOES!! Betsy said my braces were ugly, and Veronica heard her and Veronica's on the cheerleading squad! I'll never show my face outside the house again!"
Is apparently so much more important.
Go help the genuinely less fortunate, if you heart bleeds so much. Get with the freaking program.
What!?
So you shouldn't oppose something bad because it's not as bad as This Other Really Bad Thing?
If I see somebody getting bullied in the street, I'm going to intervene. Not stand there and think "I'll do something about that, right after I've finished singlehandedly sorting out world poverty."
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Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
439
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:25:00 -
[2797] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Dorn Val wrote:What Erotoica 1 does in game is not my play style, but at the same time I'm glad that Eve is a sandbox where just about anything goes. It may swing your opinion to know that there are quite many people who listen in either during the Bonus Round events, or listen to the recordings afterwards while the "clients" are being subjected to this. Begs the question: Why. Because there's an endless supply of fully grown Muppets willing to hand over their dignity.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |
Clara Pond
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
13
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:25:00 -
[2798] - Quote
LordOfDespair wrote:You made a really bad analogy, your post was bad too. Do a better job on expressing your ideas. Or leme guess, it is the readers fault that your posts are bad and make no sense. Same way its the victims fault that he got abused? Right?
I guess if you say it's true, it must be true. Even if your entire argument is based on ad hominem.
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Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
771
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:25:00 -
[2799] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:There might be a recording somewhere of someone doing something potentially illegal on a teamspeak server somewhere - prove me wrong That sure is a compelling argument. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
679
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:26:00 -
[2800] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Because there's an endless supply of fully grown Muppets willing to hand over their dignity.
No doubt! But I meant on the part of the listeners. |
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Upde
Upde Harris Industries
43
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:26:00 -
[2801] - Quote
Clara Pond wrote:Lucretia DeWinter wrote: What about when they say, actually, this contest is now a dance marathon and you have to stay here for the next 12 hours. You can leave at any time. There is a difference to what people volunteer to do and what they're forced into doing, by ransom or coercion.
I would say that the person can still leave at any time, and thus by definition is not being subjected to torture. And you are on very shaky ground talking about "forcing" and "ransom" in relation to Teamspeak and space money. Lucretia DeWinter wrote:The internet is full of people volunteering to do stupid debasing things, many of which are pretty funny. Not so many occasions where somebody is goaded or manipulated into doing those things. Then its less funny. Less funny != torture.
torture / ransom / forcing are not even relevant words, they never were and never will be in this case. However you bet your arse that when it gets written up in the media those words will be there and then there will be hell to pay. The outside world will look on this and treat it in exactly the same way as those people that smack talk people on face book after their friend has died. The outside people cannot differentiate between those 2 cases.
That leaves CCP between a rock and a hard place. I woudl think this whole debacle boils down to a damage limitation exercise for CCP and a media management / community management exercise. CCP are now left with the unenviable task of having to show their hand on this one. There is no way they can sweep this one under the carpet. They will no doubt have to answer some direct questions regarding if they support this kind of meta gaming or not and then stand by their decision and take what ever action is needed to support their stance. In this case the "if we do nothing it will blow over" option has been nuked, CCP will have to come down on one side of the fence of the other due to the amount of publicity this seems to be raking up outside of these forums and the game. |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
679
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:27:00 -
[2802] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:There might be a recording somewhere of someone doing something potentially illegal on a teamspeak server somewhere - prove me wrong That sure is a compelling argument.
It is compelling.
I know you like to think that EVE is anonymous, and that all scamming is allowed in all its forms, but be careful you do not lose distinction on where EVE ends and the real world begins.
The line is there, and crossing it has immediate and serious legal repercussions. Its not a joking matter. |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
771
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:28:00 -
[2803] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:No doubt! But I meant on the part of the listeners. The same reason people listen to ventrilo harassment or prank calls or this - amusing overreactions to silly things. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
11462
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:29:00 -
[2804] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Chribba wrote: One difference between your young(tm) type bullying and current online(tm) type bullying, is that it's way way way harder to actually do something about it. Classic face to face bullying, you could try fight back by punching some sense into someone. It's much harder to smack someone in the face when they're anonymous behind a screen in a different country and can keep on doing stuff. So I wouldn't call it fair to compare the two types as if they were equal. But I fully understand your point.
That is definitely a particularly insidious aspect of cyberbullying, however if you want to call what's happening in the bonus room "cyberbullying," then that aspect is not at play in this situation, because as far as we know, erotica1 does not harass "clients" after the bonus round has ended. You are correct, my post was meant in a more general way of online harassment we see today (on various places around the web), since the means to combat online harassment is far different from face-to-face.
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Lucretia DeWinter
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
117
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:29:00 -
[2805] - Quote
Clara Pond wrote:Lucretia DeWinter wrote: What about when they say, actually, this contest is now a dance marathon and you have to stay here for the next 12 hours. You can leave at any time. There is a difference to what people volunteer to do and what they're forced into doing, by ransom or coercion.
I would say that the person can still leave at any time, and thus by definition is not being subjected to torture. Were the casino to be sued, it would be sued for duplicitous business practices not for torture. CCP has made their position very clear on duplicitous business practices in Eve. And you are on very shaky ground talking about "forcing" and "ransom" in relation to Teamspeak and space money. Lucretia DeWinter wrote:The internet is full of people volunteering to do stupid debasing things, many of which are pretty funny. Not so many occasions where somebody is goaded or manipulated into doing those things. Then its less funny. Less funny != torture.
Agreed. I never mentioned torture. (I agree that people throwing around "torture" are using hyperbole)
And I did actually mean to put inverted commas around "forced" in this context.
However, I believe there is a ransom to talk about here (the seizing of space assets) which I have advocated can be considered real for the purposes of the emotional effect they can have on their owner.
Less Funny does not equal torture, you're right, but manipulating people into humiliating things != acceptable.
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Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
443
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:29:00 -
[2806] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:Because there's an endless supply of fully grown Muppets willing to hand over their dignity.
No doubt! But I meant on the part of the listeners. Have you seen network television at any point since the 80s If in doubt...do...excessively. |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
771
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:30:00 -
[2807] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:I know you like to think that EVE is anonymous, and that all scamming is allowed in all its forms, but be careful you do not lose distinction on where EVE ends and the real world begins.
The line is there, and crossing it has immediate and serious legal repercussions. The line is there and crossing it makes it immediately irrelevant to EVE online.
If you hold that the TS sessions are external to EVE (as I do), then this entire kerfuffle amounts to "this guy does things I don't like outside EVE so ban him". All that happened in game was a guy gave his stuff away. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
Serenity Lifebringer
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:30:00 -
[2808] - Quote
Desivo Delta Visseroff wrote:Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:LordOfDespair wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:LordOfDespair wrote:
If the majority of the players and nonplayers think this behavior is unacceptable, your argument is next to worthless.
The majority of eve players have hardly even heard of the forums let along this latest Erotica thing. They just don't care because its just not all that important. This 137 page thread and multiple news articles disagree. 288. Thats the number of people participating in this thread last I looked at the stats. That's not even a majority of the Eve players logged into Eve right now. So....Are you Suggesting that when we all log into the game we should go system to system and post this thread into local for ALL to see ***Presses CTRL -C, sets Autopilot, prepares to press CTRL-V while waiting for the universe to rage and burn
That would be a disaster. The forums would crash. |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
679
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:31:00 -
[2809] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:No doubt! But I meant on the part of the listeners. The same reason people listen to ventrilo harassment or prank calls or this - amusing overreactions to silly things.
An honest answer with no duplicity.
Much appreciated.
I dont mean it to reflect on you personally, but I think though some recordings of Bonus Room may be amusing for everyone involved, including the "client", I have a hard time believing that it is very common. Probably more like very uncommon, and mostly it is more like listening to someone urged to anger or sadness. |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
771
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:31:00 -
[2810] - Quote
Lucretia DeWinter wrote:seizing of space assets You mean the donation of space assets.
'Please contract me all your stuff' is not exactly a seizure. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
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Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2426
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:32:00 -
[2811] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Can you guarantee that in every one the participant was PROPERLY and LEGALLY informed and asked for consent to be recorded, and for the distribution of the recordings? Can you?
why would you even ask such a completely inane question? "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5379
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:33:00 -
[2812] - Quote
While I find this distasteful, this is a non issue.
The question kept being asked "What would your mother or grandmother say if they heard this recording"?
That's easy.
They would simply ask why the man was complying with those ridiculous requests, and why he didn't simply say no and leave.
This entire conversation should begin and end with that simple question. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
679
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:33:00 -
[2813] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote: All that happened in game was a guy gave his stuff away. And what happened outside of the game constitutes intentional infliction of emotional distress.
You see, what you need to understand, is that TS is not a "free" environment devoid of laws or the norms of the world.
They apply to you there, just as they do everywhere else. |
Big Lynx
The Gun Runners Space Warriors
266
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:34:00 -
[2814] - Quote
Here is another scam recorded:
1.) ruined player's eve carreer
2.)showed him up before his wife and kids
3.) made audio recording public, although he DID NOT gave permission
Erotica in action |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
679
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:34:00 -
[2815] - Quote
Batelle wrote:why would you even ask such a completely inane question? If he cannot, then it is possible that some persons rights have been violated in the Bonus Room activity. |
Mikey Aivo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
42
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:35:00 -
[2816] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Crumplecorn wrote: All that happened in game was a guy gave his stuff away. And what happened outside of the game constitutes intentional infliction of emotional distress. You see, what you need to understand, is that TS is not a "free" environment devoid of laws or the norms of the world. They apply to you there, just as they do everywhere else.
I am mikey aivo no laws apply to me |
Salvos Rhoska
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
679
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:35:00 -
[2817] - Quote
Heh, the "winners" are all fakes. |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
774
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:36:00 -
[2818] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:I dont mean it to reflect on you personally, but I think though some recordings of Bonus Room may be amusing for everyone involved, including the "client", I have a hard time believing that it is very common. Probably more like very uncommon, and mostly it is more like listening to someone urged to anger or sadness. I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, when someone is upset over a trivial situation they are completely responsible for themselves, I feel very little sympathy, so it doesn't really affect the humour value for me.
If, say, Erotica 1 was hacking accounts and taking stuff and holding the bonus round in order for the victims to get their stuff back, I'd be as much up in arms about what a terrible thing it is to do as anyone else. But when it's a racist, homophobic 'plane controller' who hands over his stuff to the most infamous 'scammer' in EVE history and rages intensely when said scammer won't give it back? Not so much. [img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img] Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5381
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Posted - 2014.03.26 14:37:00 -
[2819] - Quote
I'm pretty sure you really don't need the persons permission to make a recording available on the internet. It is done quite literally thousands of times a day. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
110599
|
Posted - 2014.03.26 14:37:00 -
[2820] - Quote
Batelle wrote:
That is definitely a particularly insidious aspect of cyberbullying, however if you want to call what's happening in the bonus room "cyberbullying," then that aspect is not at play in this situation, because as far as we know, erotica1 does not harass "clients" after the bonus round has ended.
Well, after the orgasm, it's kind of a moot point. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
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