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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4178
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:40:00 -
[181] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: Do you think CCp's definition would match that of your activist acquaintences?
The real question is: "Do I think CCP's definition is flexible based on perceived popular opinion?" "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Gregor Parud
390
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:41:00 -
[182] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Malcanis wrote: Do you think CCp's definition would match that of your activist acquaintences?
The real question is: "Do I think CCP's definition is flexible based on perceived popular opinion?"
Flexible is good, it means there was a reasoned debate on the issue.
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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
1209
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:42:00 -
[183] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:
So in order words so long as you say at the begging "Give me a 100mil or I will just continue to bump you its fine"?
I believe that this is the case.
You don't even need to ask for the 100mill, you can just do it on account of the fact that this is a game. It's also a pvp game. It's also a sandbox game.
People are failing to grasp the obvious fact that the Player is not the Character. Only the character exists within the game, the player does not despite the fact that the player controls the character's actions. Hence anything a character does to another character within the game mechanics is fine.
When the line gets crossed and the player sees him or herself as the character that's when problems begin and you get people taking things way to personally. The obvious extension to this is real life death threats for in game actions.
"It's only pixels, it's only characters and it's only a pastime that should result in fun," should be highlighted in big letters on the login screen as some people are incapable of separating the character and it's actions from the player/person at the other end of the screen.
Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Jawls Rohn
Neon Incorporated 404 Alliance Not Found
0
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:44:00 -
[184] - Quote
2 please. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14808
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:44:00 -
[185] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Malcanis wrote: Do you think CCp's definition would match that of your activist acquaintences?
The real question is: "Do I think CCP's definition is flexible based on perceived popular opinion?"
The NDA prevents me from giving specific details, but I am reassured that they're not quite the weathervanes you fear. You can take my opinion for what it's worth.
In fact I was very much reassured by our discussions with CCP.
1 Kings 12:11
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4178
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:44:00 -
[186] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Malcanis wrote: Do you think CCp's definition would match that of your activist acquaintences?
The real question is: "Do I think CCP's definition is flexible based on perceived popular opinion?" Flexible is good, it means there was a reasoned debate on the issue.
No, it means lynch mob. Pure and simple. It means if I get enough people following me who can't think for themselves, and decide to get someone banned, then I can.
There are a whole lot of waiting with baited breath hoping that isn't the case. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4178
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:45:00 -
[187] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Malcanis wrote: Do you think CCp's definition would match that of your activist acquaintences?
The real question is: "Do I think CCP's definition is flexible based on perceived popular opinion?" The NDA prevents me from giving specific details, but I am reassured that they're not quite the weathervanes you fear. You can take my opinion for what it's worth. In fact I was very much reassured by our discussions with CCP.
Well, good. That's basically what I was looking for.
You do realize that at present, it appears quite the opposite? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Gregor Parud
393
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:46:00 -
[188] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Malcanis wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:
So in order words so long as you say at the begging "Give me a 100mil or I will just continue to bump you its fine"?
I believe that this is the case. You don't even need to ask for the 100mill, you can just do it on account of the fact that this is a game. It's also a pvp game. It's also a sandbox game. People are failing to grasp the obvious fact that the Player is not the Character. Only the character exists within the game, the player does not despite the fact that the player controls the character's actions. Hence anything a character does to another character within the game mechanics is fine. When the line gets crossed and the player sees him or herself as the character that's when problems begin and you get people taking things way to personally. The obvious extension to this is real life death threats for in game actions. "It's only pixels, it's only characters and it's only a pastime that should result in fun," should be highlighted in big letters on the login screen as some people are incapable of separating the character and it's actions from the player/person at the other end of the screen.
Actually no, continued bumping "for no valid reason" is classed as harassment in this specific case and might get you a chat with a GM, if you can convince him/her you do this for valid ingame reasons (wealth, power, control) they'll let you continue. The easiest way to, up front, avoid possible GM trouble is to make a ransom demand. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
14812
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:48:00 -
[189] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Malcanis wrote: Do you think CCp's definition would match that of your activist acquaintences?
The real question is: "Do I think CCP's definition is flexible based on perceived popular opinion?" Flexible is good, it means there was a reasoned debate on the issue. No, it means lynch mob. Pure and simple. It means if I get enough people following me who can't think for themselves, and decide to get someone banned, then I can. There are a whole lot of people waiting with baited breath hoping that isn't the case.
Let me put it to you in these terms:
If I honestly thought that CCP had banned erotica1 purely because of forum pressure, do you really think I - of all people -would be quiet about it?
1 Kings 12:11
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Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
175
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:48:00 -
[190] - Quote
I vote for option 2) because it's only option that keeps EVE as it is.
People claim that they don't know where the boundaries are but people tend to lie when they play with fire and burn the house down. Do they complain when caught ? Well of c. they do it's the human nature to blame everyone but your self when you f*ck up. |
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Apocriphia
The M.P.I. The Marmite Collective
0
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:48:00 -
[191] - Quote
2 |
Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
1469
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:51:00 -
[192] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Malcanis wrote: Do you think CCp's definition would match that of your activist acquaintences?
The real question is: "Do I think CCP's definition is flexible based on perceived popular opinion?" Flexible is good, it means there was a reasoned debate on the issue. No, it means lynch mob. Pure and simple. It means if I get enough people following me who can't think for themselves, and decide to get someone banned, then I can. There are a whole lot of people waiting with baited breath hoping that isn't the case. Let me put it to you in these terms: If I honestly thought that CCP had banned erotica1 purely because of forum pressure, do you really think I - of all people -would be quiet about it?
Well, you talk *almost* as much as I do, and that's saying something, so, no... I doubt you would :p That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... |
Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
1558
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:55:00 -
[193] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
Do you think CCp's definition would match that of your activist acquaintences?
With the proper framing of context, sure. I'll extend the example just a little ways, to keep it clear.
Lets say this is the post:
"Ohh man, I went to this EVE meetup in town last night and it was awesome! We all got totally wasted, and dude, there was this cute chick there. It took me a couple tries and a bunch of drinks, but I totally talked her into coming back to my place for (insert sexual description here). We were so blasted man, she thought he was at her place the next day!"
Yes, I know activist types who would take a post like that (pretty douchey, but basically young adults being young adults), and turn that into "CCP, why do you condone and allow rapists access to your game and meetups? This is obviously a case of date **** according to (definitions). You do something or it goes to the media."
Here's a second, and more outlandish example. Eve player into fetish BDSM. Stalker type pulls a amatuer video off fetish website that they can tie to said EVE player. Hands to CCP out of context with "Look CCP, one of your customers is rapey. Do something".
Threesome, and realistic this time! Roleplaying EVE forum. Two guys get into a heated RP argument with insults, accusations, and all. Totally consensual out of character. Dude screengrabs the roleplay, and presents it to the world as "Look at this cyberbullying! CCP take action."
Context is very easy to hold within EVE. We have the EULA that dictates what context our interactions have. Outside of EVE, that goes right out the window. Trying to judge off-EVE actions via the context accepted within EVE will cause issues. The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP). |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
1085
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:55:00 -
[194] - Quote
Definitely 2. Use common sense... but unfortunately, some people fail to do so, so CCP has to take action. Of course it's going to cause an uproar when they do, but it's needed. Also, it also shows that CCP isn't afraid to take action when it is warranted, as in the 2 or 3 highest profile cases in Eve history. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16966
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:56:00 -
[195] - Quote
A little of all three could work, but would be trouble to police.
2 really is the option that suits Eve best I guess, but CCP should try to be a little more consistent in it's approach.
One concern that this whole debacle has raised, is the talk of and calling for RL violence. One even going as far as to say they would laugh and applaud such action. I haven't yet seen even a forum ban for these types, yet alone account. In the new thread RL threats were justified because:
Quote:he started the whole thing by trying to awox someone. and
Quote:Again, if you treat people badly, do you expect them to not get mad, and not do anything about it?
If you don't want trouble IRL, don't make trouble for other people. Golden rule. Basis of every civil society.
Now if you want to mess with people, then accept the consequences for doing so. Or at the very least, accept the responsibility for seeking out a conflict.
It smacks of double standards and inconsistency. But then I guess they didn't have some CSM blogging on it so....... Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. Kimmi's Thinking Cosy. |
One Eyed Runner
Perkone Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2014.03.29 12:57:00 -
[196] - Quote
Nalelmir Ahashion wrote:Malcanis wrote: (1) CCP should define abuse and harrassment at the lowest level possible so that essentially any potentially offensive communication is deemed unacceptable, and everyone has a clear idea of where the line is: don't say anything bad at all to another player. This is the choice of virtually every MMO in the game industry.
This is best option. Eve is game about spaceships, about economy and simulation of economical environment (everything comes down to isks). Latest event showed us that people in this game are not able to (Not 100% of them but major part enough) behave in an adult manner and limit themselves. Place a red line, set the boundaries.
this ^^^
some players cant understand people that DONT PvP and just want to mine, explore or mission run
I live in Jita so f*ck off |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
1085
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 12:58:00 -
[197] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
Let me put it to you in these terms:
If I honestly thought that CCP had banned erotica1 purely because of forum pressure, do you really think I - of all people -would be quiet about it?
You'd definitely wouldn't keep quiet about it. You're rather blunt, which is needed a lot of times. And I respect the bluntness and your willingness to voice your opinion, no matter what people may think. |
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
503
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Posted - 2014.03.29 13:00:00 -
[198] - Quote
Option 2.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4181
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Posted - 2014.03.29 13:00:00 -
[199] - Quote
One Eyed Runner wrote: this ^^^
some players cant understand people that DONT PvP and just want to mine, explore or mission run
Not only do I not understand, I actively make it a point to target you. So I don't care, either.
You don't get to pretend this is a single player game. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Sarah McKnobbo
McKnobbo Universal Traders
121
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Posted - 2014.03.29 13:01:00 -
[200] - Quote
2 please |
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olan2005
Twisted Insanity. The Kadeshi
65
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Posted - 2014.03.29 13:06:00 -
[201] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
(2) CCP should continue with the status quo, and trust the members of the EVE community to have the adult intelligence and humanity to exercise discretion in how far they can take their communication with other players. And having exercised that discretion, to also be aware that we're all members of the game community and that while every kind of in-game space-villainy is legitimate, we're all actual human beings behind the screen and we should be careful with our out of game actions to each other. This option is, so far as I am aware, unique to CCP and EVE; if other MMOs place this level of trust and faith in their players I am unaware of them.
i vote this one . That way they have the power to remind people use common sense and still allow the uniue aspect of the meta-game to continue |
Marcia en Welle
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
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Posted - 2014.03.29 13:09:00 -
[202] - Quote
Continue with the status quo, including leaving with CCP the discretion to still ban asshats as they see fit. So basically continue with the status quo. And also, you would do better not to get dragged into this cess pit of a discussion Malcanis. |
Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
1469
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 13:11:00 -
[203] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You don't get to pretend this is a single player game.
Take note of this statement, right here. Fellow players, CSM members, GM's, and CCP employees.
This is the heart of the entire matter. We play EVE because it's a sandbox. Take away our sand, and you no longer have customers. Let the isolationists leave for S**r C*****n, where KOS lists, mercenary contracts, bounties, and pretty much all one-sided decisions to PvP are all bannable offenses.
Bring back HTFU. Now.
/thread That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... |
Gajin Sensei
Gajin's Candlelight Events
133
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 13:11:00 -
[204] - Quote
Cool thread, asking for feedback and then making 2 ridiculous extremes of the spectrum as options to choose from, that no one in their right mind would support as they are.
So here, I choose 2, that's the whole purpose of this thread right ? Make it look like everything is A-OK and the community thinks that nothing needs to change. |
KnowUsByTheDead
Krypteia Operations CODE.
1191
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 13:13:00 -
[205] - Quote
Option 2. Amended.
By and large, the highest percentage of the community is adult.
EvE Online is unique in that it is a community that has been "branded" a certain way for 10 years. To change that brand, while possibly bringing in new subs, would alienate many in the player base. Changing that brand, will also breed a dissolution of the uniqueness that has made EvE a successful game. A game that has grown, rather than bred a "churn 'em and burn 'em" subscription model. Players become "invested." Their "friends", "corp mates," and "fellow community participants" matter to them.
Players know, when entering EvE, if they have done half their research before choosing to subscribe, what they are getting into. And anyone who doesn't do any research on an MMO which will assuredly take up quite a bit of their time as a hobby, are idiots.
You can lose anything, to anybody, at anytime. The methods by which you can are negligible.
You can be ganked, scammed, podded, ransomed, heisted, and everything else in EvE.
Our foundations speak volumes on it.
Existing organizations were built on the precept of "We are not here to ruin the game, we are here to ruin YOUR game."
Huge heists and scams have made headlines.
The newest ALOD makes all of us ::facepalm:: and share it with our little groups for a decent laugh.
We giggle at shooting blues. An entire profession in the game is based on it.
We trade killmails with one another. Our victories. Our defeats. We laugh about them, and use them to stroke our collective egos.
We all hop on TS, Mumble, or Vent and troll each other. Call each other names like "pubby," "pet," "newb."
We ransom, sing songs, have a good time. CCP Gargant....were you "hurt" or "abused?"
Hell, even CCP, with PLEX4Good went to extreme's during their livestream, lol.
The only clear cut amendment I see needing changed is the bigotry, need to infiltrate the person's life outside the realm of the game (and the common tools use to play the game, i.e. killboards, VOIP) to harm an actual player, threaten harm on another player, as well as death threats in game. Violence their spaceship, instead. Call them assholes. A little foul language doesn't hurt me. I am grown up enough. Just don't elude to race or sexual orientation in your rage and tears. It is modern times. These things should quite frankly not exist
It is easy to scapegoat an community-active scammer, with a fringe case, with one-sided facts, a month after the fact...and claim it to be abuse. Then only the sandbox-purists will come to their aid and defense. Those who understand this has been the way of things for a decade.
And when all the facts finally lay on the table, the only true victims become the scammer (who had his life threatened multiple times in game and out), the innocent newbie that was kicked from their corp (who didn't even know what the CSM was, let alone expected them to run to his aid, when he had already gotten back on his feet within days), the players the content was being created for(some of whom were booted from their respective alliances and organizations), and the sandbox.
Not meant to be a shameless plug, but more as what I am familiar with, I urge you to visit Minerbumping. Look at some of the sperging that comes from the supposed "reputable" and "upstanding" portion of the community. Over losing their ship.
In my short time participating in the "outlier" communities, I have met some of the most polite and helpful individuals of the entirety of my time in this game.
Because we are playing characters.
We all understand that.
Others do not.
And we certainly do not need "elected representatives" who create chaos by singling out specific members of the whole community they represent, whether they agree with the play style or not, and making the in-game and real lives trying and difficult, with sensationalist claims. Especially when the "metagame" had gone on for a year to the wide knowledge of CCP and the community proper.
As myself, Ero, and other have shown time and time again, we have nothing to hide.
We simply love the game we play.
We express our gratitude to CCP often. (Sometimes we get frustrated, but as sohkar said...."who doesn't?")
And most of all we know that internet spaceships is not serious business. They are pixels on a screen. Intangible. Nothingness. A damn video game, regardless of how much time and/or money you have poured into it.
The losses you think are real are designed to feel that way. No different than the adrenaline rush you feel when get into a "gudfite." Hilmar himself attested to that when he talked about his friend's cruiser being blown up, and working, rather than using devhax to replace it.
It is merely another piece of the unique tone of EvE Online. And to change that would be the bastardization of everything that CCP touts. A decade's worth of building, creating, molding.......all undone in an instant.
Player creation.
Emergence.
I honestly hope that never happens. Or what we love....what many of us have spent days fighting over....will evaporate into thin air.
Option 2 for me, Malcanis.
Minus the bigotry and death threats.
And, of course, the sensationalism and lynch mobbing.
Just saying.
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes sense. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1351
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 13:14:00 -
[206] - Quote
1 |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
3096
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 13:17:00 -
[207] - Quote
I don't like the wording for option 2 as it still implies an increase in regulations than are currently in place. I feel the survey has been loaded to suit your own agenda so I'll make my own choice of opinion which would be to dismantle the CSM and leave the rules about harassment as they have been up until now. Oh god. |
Marcia en Welle
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
49
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 13:20:00 -
[208] - Quote
Gajin Sensei wrote:Cool thread, asking for feedback and then making 2 ridiculous extremes of the spectrum as options to choose from, that no one in their right mind would support as they are.
So here, I choose 2, that's the whole purpose of this thread right ? Make it look like everything is A-OK and the community thinks that nothing needs to change. Purpose of this thread, is Malcanis after having been talked some sense into by CCP and other CSM members, back tracking from this position taken up in the Erotica thread the other day. |
Bob Bedala
43
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 13:21:00 -
[209] - Quote
Gajin Sensei wrote:Cool thread, asking for feedback and then making 2 ridiculous extremes of the spectrum as options to choose from, that no one in their right mind would support as they are.
Spot on, Sensei. To summarise, and explain why 1 is the only viable solution;
3) Anarchy -- sadly proven not to work IRL because a significant proportion of people are dicks. 2) Punish you when you step over a line, but we're not going to tell you where the line is. Try raising a child or running a country that way -- hint, doesn't work, completely unfair. 1) Define the line, and the punishments, and provide examples. Imperfect, but thousands of years of human culture indicates that's the only viable option. Just define lines in a way a child can understand and communicate changes in those lines effectively.
Whether through fear of legal liability, avoidance of a hard problem, or for whatever reason CCP persist with 2 but it will never work. |
Jarod Garamonde
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
1469
|
Posted - 2014.03.29 13:26:00 -
[210] - Quote
To emphasize and support one of KnowUsByTheDead's points, there are plenty of times where we PvP'ers receive some pretty nasty hatemail from carebears and miners, after we pop one of their ships. Doesn't matter if it's just a Venture, or a Marauder. They get SUPERPISSED. We're talking horrible personal insults, racist slurs, homophobic comments, threats of death, you name it. One such carebear even threatened to find where I live and **** my girlfriend while I was at work. Over a friggin Catalyst.
These kids knowingly jump into lowsec, after being warned at the gate what they are doing to themselves, to run a mission or rat in the belts of a dangerous system that has already been claimed by a pirate alliance, and then get incredibly angry and flood your inbox with filth. If you ignore them, they just keep on sending you ragemails, and repeatedly private convo you to cuss you out some more.
When are we going to look at the conduct of carebears, and realize that some of these guys are complete and total scumbags that EVE is honestly better off without?
Oh, but it happened to a pirate, so nobody cares. That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right... |
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