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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5158
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 20:58:00 -
[211] - Quote
Jurchik82 wrote:CCP Fozzie, turn your attention to this post I have long been playing this game , and always engaged in procuring of ore. When digging alone, without bonuses fleet , the range Survey Scanner II lacked. And when you dig in the fleet with bonuses for distance Strip & Ice harvesters, then at a distance of up to 29km rays , range Survey Scanner II (24.5 km) is not enough. And with new features range rays will reach 39km ! !
If you are in fleet with an Orca, you have 70km survey scanners. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Systemlord Rah
All Inclusive SpaceMonkey's Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 21:41:00 -
[212] - Quote
and can anybody see the results besides the orca pilot can he magical share the results or can he tag every roid for 10+ Barges i dont think so the orca scanner bonus is useless |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
389
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 00:23:00 -
[213] - Quote
Just a quick reminder to everyone, this discussion of survey scanners is still alive:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3100906#post3100906 |
Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
2
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 11:19:00 -
[214] - Quote
Not really sure where CCP Fozzie got these ideas to change the mining minigame, because I thought that the Proc/Skiff and the Ret/Mack barges were fine and relatively well balanced. The only barges that needed real help was the Covetor and the Hulk - they needed an ore bay at least the size of a Procurer and ideally a Skiff, and the Hulk needed a buff to its tank to justify its cost.
What we got instead is the following:
1. Procurer midslot nerf - basically this works out to a yield nerf with the loss of a midslot, in order to get the roughly the same EHP you have to consume two low slots (RB II + DCU II) but you only gain one additional low slot from the change and you lose a midslot. So assuming you still need a large tank to survive a gank attempt long enough for help to arrive, you will take a yield nerf to get it. For Procurer PvP bait, losing the midslot just means less fitting options, which is basically fail as well since Skiffs are generally too expensive to use as bait. I don't really see the point to either of these changes.
2. Retriever/Mack yield nerf - Just why? Most solo/small gang highsec miners and newer players fly this ship for its convenience. Its not nice to just nerf their yield because it happens to be your opinoin that too many people are flying Retrievers and Macks. From my experience mining in highsec, I see plenty of procurers and skiffs because of their anti-gank advantages. The only ships I don't see often are Covetors and Hulks for the reasons listed above. But the landscape is diverse enough, and would have become more so if everything was left alone except for the above buffs to Covetors and Hulks. Along with the Procurer nerf, this works out to a mining yield nerf pretty much across the board, in practical terms. I thought the intention was to avoid a mining nerf since that was the stated intent in the Refining/Reprocessing changes? Well this change is a mining nerf since most non-botting/ISBoxing miners fly these ships, and the buffs to Skiffs, Covetors and Hulks are probably not enough to get them to switch. Don't get me wrong, miners will still make more or less the same income as before, but mineral prices will go up and ship costs will therefore go up so PvP will cost more.
3. Skiff buff - Probably will make the Skiff the best mining ship in the game, excellent yield, decent size ore bay, incredible tank and great drone DPS. This could be a rather significant nullsec mining buff since the drone HP and DPS bonuses could allow this ship to solo null belt rats, though I would have to defer to the nullbears for the final take on that. For any ore belts and anomalies that are close to a station, this is the go-to ship. Skiffs will probably also entirely displace Covetors/Hulks in corp mining fleets since the latter didn't get the buffs where they were needed and the yield bonuses aren't worth the paper thin tank. But this brings up what could be a major problem with this buff in that every botter and ISBoxer in New Eden will be buying fleets of these ships and fielding them with the usual Orca + Freighter setup and they will be almost impossible to harass by suicide gankers, at least not economically. It would take an entire gank fleet to take out a couple of Skiff botters with this change, and I don't think this is good for Eve. I've had quite good faith that mining bots were more or less policed by players via suicide ganking, and that if players decided they just didn't like botting/ISBoxing, they could take justice into their own hands if they so chose. Well post-patch, player policing may no longer be viable against this class of miners. Now, I have nothing against ISBoxing per-se (of course I hate botting, but thats a given), the problem here is that in the long run most highsec mining ganks will fall entirely on the small time miners in retrievers and macks, and that would be unfortunate to say the least.
4. Covetor/Hulk "buff" - Sigh, well it got the wrong stats buffed so it goes in the trash bin until the next balance pass. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
2991
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 11:36:00 -
[215] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Jurchik82 wrote:CCP Fozzie, turn your attention to this post I have long been playing this game , and always engaged in procuring of ore. When digging alone, without bonuses fleet , the range Survey Scanner II lacked. And when you dig in the fleet with bonuses for distance Strip & Ice harvesters, then at a distance of up to 29km rays , range Survey Scanner II (24.5 km) is not enough. And with new features range rays will reach 39km ! ! If you are in fleet with an Orca, you have 70km survey scanners.
At a minimum.
My orca alt has a meta 4 survey scanner reaching out to 108km.
As for tagging, it's not exactly difficult. 'Oh no, a fleet commander may need to do something' Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
2120
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 12:42:00 -
[216] - Quote
TheMercenaryKing wrote:...mining yield 3% implant,
amateur. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
mr ed thehouseofed
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
667
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 12:47:00 -
[217] - Quote
as a miner , producer , trader i approve of these changes especially since i have skiff and procurer bpo and bpc's sitting in a hanger business may pick up real gamers only need one toon . i want a eve pinball machine make it so CCP |
Sarah Flynt
Federation Interstellar Resources
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 15:18:00 -
[218] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:4. Covetor/Hulk "buff" - Sigh, well it got the wrong stats buffed so it goes in the trash bin until the next balance pass. Pretty much this. Unless you fix the ridiculous fitting restrictions of the Hulk, hardy anybody is going to use it because of its paper thin tank. If you fit it for tank, the other exhumers are a better choice. Using expensive tank modules with better fitting stats is prohibitive as you make yourself a gank magnet even more. By moving the resists bonus to the Exhumer skill, you even made the situation worse. Hardly anybody I know has trained Exhumers to V as it's just not worth it.
Also: please have a look at the capacitor stats. Cap on some barges is already less than stellar as it is and switching from a yield to a duration bonus will make the situation much worse. |
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
25
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 15:27:00 -
[219] - Quote
Why don't you clueless morons just buff the Hulks yield instead of nerfing the Mackinaw. The 1% bonus to yield per exhumer skill on the hulk is a joke. Do you really expect people to want to spend 30 days training for 1% more yield? |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
142
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 15:49:00 -
[220] - Quote
I'm not sure these changes you have proposed are necessary nor that they will succeed in your stated objective to get miners to use Retriever & Mackinaw class vessels less. Increasing the signature on the Hulk I believe, but correct me if I'm wrong, will make it easier to suicide gank a Hulk ? If so this makes the Hulk an even less attractive vessel to use for mining.
Increasing the laser range is interesting. I can see why you are proposing that but I won't say.
Regarding the Hulk the best course of action would not be to increase the yield as some have suggested but to increase the shield, armor, & structure levels to the same as the Mackinaw. The Hulk can be killed by a single Catalyst atm whereas the Mackinaw can just about survive a single Catalyst attack. If both vessels can have the same EHP then you will see more use of the Hulk.
As others have logically pointed out miners will obviously look to gain the most ISK/m3 per hour. So the first iteration of the mining vessels was obviously going to bring to us to the current use of Retriever & Mackinaw. Procurers being deployed where there are sustained attacks in high sec belts. It is fairly, if not very rare, to see Hulk use outside of 'deep blue' nullsec mining areas.
I can say going by most changes since the first mining vessel iteration that I am NOT in any way surprised that you didn't realise the current ship use would occur. You probably need me working at CCP but unfortunately I'm to busy. |
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Maduin Shi
Breakwater Testing Inc Aegis Requiem
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 16:21:00 -
[221] - Quote
TL;DR
Sell procurers/covetors/hulks
Buy skiffs
Train 21 day free trial hauler alt for skiff w/ throwaway Miasmos
Sell retty/mack
?
Profit |
Dave Stark
4868
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 16:33:00 -
[222] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:TL;DR
Sell procurers/covetors/hulks
Buy skiffs
Train 21 day free trial hauler alt for skiff w/ throwaway Miasmos
Sell retty/mack
?
Profit
51 day miasmoses, 51 day miasmoses everywhere.... |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
390
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 16:39:00 -
[223] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote:Why don't you clueless morons just buff the Hulks yield instead of nerfing the Mackinaw. The 1% bonus to yield per exhumer skill on the hulk is a joke. Do you really expect people to want to spend 30 days training for 1% more yield? I dont know what you are reading but the effective turrets (translates into yield) increased. There has never been a 1% bonus on the Hulk. |
Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
631
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 16:50:00 -
[224] - Quote
My biggest gripe with the mining ships rebalance is still the same as when they were first introduced:
Quote:I'm OK with the new the designs, but the way they were implemented on the old models is just plain fugly. I know, this is mostly a rp thing again, but if you had designed these ships from scratch, you would not have done it like this, and you (hopefully) know it. I mean, here is the Hulk: a ship designed for superiour mining yield. It lacks good defenses or a large cargo bay, but despite that and being the biggest ship of the three, is has the lowest yield per turret of the 3 ships. Now how does that make sense? The biggest ship has no room for the amazing 1-turret-mines-as-3 tech despite not having defenses or large ore bay? It would have made more sense if you applied the Hulk stats to the Skiff model and vice versa (while keeping the Skiff 1-turret-as-3 bonus on the skiff of course), it would still be cheap and ugly, but at least it would make more sense. And why so cheap anyway, you design combat ships quite regularly, why do the miners get this cheap solution? Aren't they worthy of new models? Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate |
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
1791
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 18:41:00 -
[225] - Quote
we ever going to see a tech II mining frig? There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Darkblad
Hilfe is like Free Entertainment
163
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 18:42:00 -
[226] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:we ever going to see a tech II mining frig? I think, we can Prospect that soon (no Gäó) EVE Infolinks -+-áOld and new-áPortraits |
Lando Cenvax
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 18:53:00 -
[227] - Quote
OK, to summarize:
- Covetor & Hulk are still not worth to buy (read: they are filling a very small niche). Retty/Macki with Triple-MLU does almost the same yield => 3rd Low-Slow is a must for "yield king"!
- Covetor & Hulk don't bonus survey scanners. There are no faction survey scanners available. No benefit of this change.
- Crystals will wear out faster - probably consider some "counterbalancing" on the wear or BP
- Cap will drain faster - same here on the cap-recharge rate.
- Skiff will be reintroduced as PvP-Ship with mining Capabilites - probably makes mining in some areas more attractive...
- Survey Scanner is still a crappy device. No indication of targeted roid, no auto-repeat,...
- After introduction of the Miasmos the Orca has become almost obsolete as ore-hauler. Still not balanced. Short-Range Jump-Drive may be nice too. Then the Orca may also be a cheaper alternative to Jump-freighters -at least for ore and minor volumes of equipment where a JF is not efficient in terms of risk vs benefit of hauling.
This exhumer/barge balance is imho mostly pointless... changing stuff without (practically) making a change.
Giving the Exhumers a utility highslot may have been a nice idea for example... fits a tractor, cloaky (if you sacrifice something else for CPU) or small remote repper for drones... whatever... maybe a highslot module to boost mining drone yield by 50% finally making them usefull on barges/exhumers? |
Rahh Serves
Collective Industrial Confederation Silent Forge
2
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 21:04:00 -
[228] - Quote
at least the changes arent bad but i think the changes dont help in any way
lets see
Procurer and skiffs
can now fight back ok my fleet can now fight single neuts or Destroyers in empire
Retriever/Mack nothing will change for these ships the large ore hold + large roids in 0.0 space = Free Time for Local intel spreedsheats books videos
Hulks
well i cant say anything about the hulk since i never used the hulk since the changes that made the hulk useless and from what i can understand the changes do nothing against it even in fleets the only ships i can see are Macks and or Skiffs and i fly in mining fleets up to 30 barges and more |
Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
220
|
Posted - 2014.04.04 23:30:00 -
[229] - Quote
I proposed something along these lines for the procurer/skiff a while back, and had a great discussion about its power.
The bottom line is the procuror will be far too powerful at level 1 skill, to just get in it and have BS tank with that 50% damage bonus (even with light drones). I modified my proposal to only have that bonus on the skiff, 'cause the procurer doesn't really need that much firepower I reckon.
Link to earlier discussion X |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
906
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 00:17:00 -
[230] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:...Asking a dedicated PVP ship to defend a mining fleet can often lead to mind numbing boredom for the PVP pilot, so we're providing the option for players to make sacrifices in their mining ships to allow self-defense. So quit playing with your damn barbies, hunker down and revamp mining in its entirety.
Make mining an interactive endeavour where one has to do more than lock, activate, have a cuppa .. there is no reason why a pew boat cannot be a participating member of a drunken op even when/if no hostiles show.
Considering the changes we have seen to PvP, Trade, MIssion-whoring etc. over the years the complete lack of attention given to the mining system is suspect to say the least .. almost as if it is an activity you do not want people to engage in.
There has been mentions of all sorts of mining add-ons; comet mining, planetary belt mining et al. .. but weaving more layers into the rug does not make the crap underneath any less crap.
In short: Screw revisions to mining barges, revamp the mining core. |
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Merritoff
Zod's Minions
14
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 00:18:00 -
[231] - Quote
why was the mining drone bonus left behind on the vexor instead of transferred to one of the barges to make that particular line (ie cargo, vs yield vs defence) more distinct?
why is there no provision for utility mods with barges. looking at the procurer I need to now gut the tank for any utility options. a while back the drone navigation computer was patched to include mining drones? does anybody even use it for that purpose. (I have). There is comprise and sacrifice; then there is misfit waiting to die badly. a survey scanner is a decent and reward utilty for the pro-active miner. compared to any cruiser or battlecruiser which has plenty of fitting options to keep a reasonable amount of tank and still have utilities such as a prop mod, track comps, webs etc. but it seems that barges are a second rate ship.
why are there no mining yield rigs other than mining drone rigs. I would even trade off shields for a increase in ore yield or cycle reduction.
and since we are talking about ORE. ORE continues to be out of reach the majority of miners in terms of LP. maybe a dev can supply the stats for just how much LP has been exchanged with Outer Ring Excavations? some miners might like the option of faction bling and I am sure gankers would be onboard with that as well. how many pilots fit the Harvest series of implants?
sorry to say Fozzie, but your latest update comes across as a phoned-in EFT warrior'd posting. there is still no reason for many miners to change from their existing line preferences. those that currently fly the retriever will continue to do so post patch.
and let me re-iterate what has been already suggested in this thread. start a alt and try mining in Halaima. then go to the drawing board. |
CowRocket Void
Hax. Triumvirate.
10
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 00:54:00 -
[232] - Quote
I love mining in my procurer, please don't take the 4th mid away |
Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
220
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 03:57:00 -
[233] - Quote
I just want to reiterate what I said in an earlier post as I feel it bears further emphasis. With the barge's quick locking time, +50% bonus to drone damage and a battleship tank, the procurer will be frickin *nasty* against small ships, and that's with level 1 barge skill. I strongly suggest reducing the locking speed and consider giving only the skiff the 10% drone damage bonus.
Ideally, asteroids should take practically no time at all to get a lock on, but a major difference between mining ships and proper combat ships should be a terrible locking time vs other ships. I wouldn't mind seeing the sensor res greatly nerfed on mining ships and industrials across the board, but accompanied by a massive bloom in asteroid signatures. X |
Quinn Corvez
Probe Patrol Awakened.
222
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 05:52:00 -
[234] - Quote
Mining is a joke in this game. An update to make the system more interactive and rewarding is way overdue.
... But I guess CCP will say that the asteroid code is also so old that no one knows how it works and they are afraid to change it. So we'll just have to put up with it for another ten years |
Atum
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
89
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 08:37:00 -
[235] - Quote
Galphii wrote:Ideally, asteroids should take practically no time at all to get a lock on, but a major difference between mining ships and proper combat ships should be a terrible locking time vs other ships. I wouldn't mind seeing the sensor res greatly nerfed on mining ships and industrials across the board, but accompanied by a massive bloom in asteroid signatures. Definitely agree that asteroids should have a massive sig bloom, but you don't want to nerf a barge's res too much. Cruiser-level (rather than the current frigate-level) ought to be sufficient, as you need to tell your drones what's scratching the paint before your hull tanking skills kick in. |
Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
220
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 08:53:00 -
[236] - Quote
Atum wrote:Galphii wrote:Ideally, asteroids should take practically no time at all to get a lock on, but a major difference between mining ships and proper combat ships should be a terrible locking time vs other ships. I wouldn't mind seeing the sensor res greatly nerfed on mining ships and industrials across the board, but accompanied by a massive bloom in asteroid signatures. Definitely agree that asteroids should have a massive sig bloom, but you don't want to nerf a barge's res too much. Cruiser-level (rather than the current frigate-level) ought to be sufficient, as you need to tell your drones what's scratching the paint before your hull tanking skills kick in. I agree completely. After posting I remembered barges still need to target rats in a reasonable amount of time X |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2828
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 10:03:00 -
[237] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:So quit playing with your damn barbies, hunker down and revamp mining in its entirety.
Make mining an interactive endeavour where one has to do more than lock, activate, have a cuppa .. there is no reason why a pew boat cannot be a participating member of a drunken op even when/if no hostiles show.
Considering the changes we have seen to PvP, Trade, MIssion-whoring etc. over the years the complete lack of attention given to the mining system is suspect to say the least .. almost as if it is an activity you do not want people to engage in.
There has been mentions of all sorts of mining add-ons; comet mining, planetary belt mining et al. .. but weaving more layers into the rug does not make the crap underneath any less crap.
In short: Screw revisions to mining barges, revamp the mining core. do it
what are new players told when they start playing the game? "mining and mission running are great newbie careers!"
*opens secret envelope: 'name two grindy, uninteresting and horrible career paths that make people quit in their first week'
there's a reason you see so many people saying "i tried eve but didn't like it, i wasn't doing anything" and "eve the single-player mmo lol" on message boards
in the op fozzie says 'we didn't expect so many people to pick up the mackinaw'. the reason so many people pick up the mackinaw is because if they fly the mackinaw they don't have to play the game. should a game mechanic be so boring and repetitive that the most desirable way to play the game is by not playing at all?
an 'imbalance' of mining barges doesn't matter. the 'undiverse mining landscape' is a symptom of a ******* terrible game mechanic. don't treat the symptom, treat the disease |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
278
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 15:52:00 -
[238] - Quote
Galphii wrote:I just want to reiterate what I said in an earlier post as I feel it bears further emphasis. With the barge's quick locking time, +50% bonus to drone damage and a battleship tank, the procurer will be frickin *nasty* against small ships, and that's with level 1 barge skill. I strongly suggest reducing the locking speed and consider giving only the skiff the 10% drone damage bonus.
No more than a Myrmidon.
The Law is a point of View |
Tear Jar
The Conference Elite CODE.
86
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 19:03:00 -
[239] - Quote
Rahh Serves wrote:at least the changes arent bad but i think the changes dont help in any way
lets see
Procurer and skiffs
can now fight back ok my fleet can now fight single neuts or Destroyers in empire
Retriever/Mack nothing will change for these ships the large ore hold + large roids in 0.0 space = Free Time for Local intel spreedsheats books videos
Hulks
well i cant say anything about the hulk since i never used the hulk since the changes that made the hulk useless and from what i can understand the changes do nothing against it even in fleets the only ships i can see are Macks and or Skiffs and i fly in mining fleets up to 30 barges and more
In null, it won't change much, but thats because in null, tank doesn't really matter. Typically, you either get caught and die or you don't.
This will have an impact on high sec mining, where tank is a big advantage. A fleet of Mackinaws makes yo ua target. A fleet of Skiffs lets you mine with virtually 0 risk. |
Tear Jar
The Conference Elite CODE.
86
|
Posted - 2014.04.05 19:26:00 -
[240] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:
1. Procurer midslot nerf - basically this works out to a yield nerf with the loss of a midslot, in order to get the roughly the same EHP you have to consume two low slots (RB II + DCU II) but you only gain one additional low slot from the change and you lose a midslot. So assuming you still need a large tank to survive a gank attempt long enough for help to arrive, you will take a yield nerf to get it. For Procurer PvP bait, losing the midslot just means less fitting options, which is basically fail as well since Skiffs are generally too expensive to use as bait. Procurers also become more obvious bait since it is SOP to use cheap post-nerfed ships as bait. I don't really see the point to either of these changes.
3. Skiff buff - Probably will make the Skiff the best mining ship in the game, excellent yield, decent size ore bay, incredible tank and great drone DPS. This could be a rather significant nullsec mining buff since the drone HP and DPS bonuses could allow this ship to solo null belt rats, though I would have to defer to the nullbears for the final take on that. For any ore belts and anomalies that are close to a station, this is the go-to ship. Skiffs will probably also entirely displace Covetors/Hulks in corp mining fleets since the latter didn't get the buffs where they were needed and the yield bonuses aren't worth the paper thin tank. But this brings up what could be a major problem with this buff in that every botter and ISBoxer in New Eden will be buying fleets of these ships and fielding them with the usual Orca + Freighter setup and they will be almost impossible to harass by suicide gankers, at least not economically. It would take an entire gank fleet to take out a couple of Skiff botters with this change, and I don't think this is good for Eve. I've had quite good faith that mining bots were more or less policed by players via suicide ganking, and that if players decided they just didn't like botting/ISBoxing, they could take justice into their own hands if they so chose. Well post-patch, player policing may no longer be viable against this class of miners. Now, I have nothing against ISBoxing per-se (of course I hate botting, but thats a given), the problem here is that in the long run most highsec mining ganks will fall entirely on the small time miners in retrievers and macks, and that would be unfortunate to say the least.
This part does bother me. CCP didn't really mention the effect of actually losing ships. Skiffs may have a lower ore hold, but they require less skill. Even if you fit poorly and ignore local, your high sec skiff will be safe.
I disagree that the procurer changes are a nerf. A procurer can still get 60k+ EHP without using any of its low slots. Procurers are massively more tanky than a retriever by default. They still aren't worth ganking and they get more yield. Thats a buff. |
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