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Dr Grant
Building Inspectors
17
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Posted - 2014.04.03 17:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
I read all about the refining efficiency advantage in 0.0. In my experience a lot of it is going to be void, because the station owners will tax refining as an income source. What is your experience concerning this? |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
192
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Posted - 2014.04.03 17:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
And? Certainly helping someone in null. |
Volar Kang
Aliastra Gallente Federation
116
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Posted - 2014.04.03 17:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sounds like someone got Obama involved in null. What a shame... |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1283
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Posted - 2014.04.03 17:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
as long as the taxed refinery is still better than a lowsec pos you should be fine :) GRRR Goons |
Dr Grant
Building Inspectors
17
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Posted - 2014.04.03 17:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
The point was made that all producers and miners will rush to 0.0 because there is this ~10% advantage. I think in most cases it won't be there for the individual.
And since individuals usually decide based on their personal profits, especially the industry types currently in highsec, i do not see the huge benefit currently.
Add to this the added risks and logistics issues and it pretty much becomes "meh".
Edit: you could argue that it is another move to fill the pockets of organization leaders. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1283
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Posted - 2014.04.03 17:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
whats wrong with having benefits only available for organisations ? GRRR Goons |
Dr Grant
Building Inspectors
17
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:whats wrong with having benefits only available for organisations ?
It is as such foremost a benefit for organization leaders. Now in same cases that may trickle down to organization members, but in most cases it doesn't. |
afkboss
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Stayed in a few different nullsec outposts and none had refining tax. |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
4
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Posted - 2014.04.03 18:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
afkboss wrote:Stayed in a few different nullsec outposts and none had refining tax.
Same. |
Thur Barbek
Republic University Minmatar Republic
284
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Posted - 2014.04.04 03:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
afkboss wrote:Stayed in a few different nullsec outposts and none had refining tax.
^^^^^^^^
if your getting refine tax - time to change corps/alliances or talk to leadership. |
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Solai
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
197
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Posted - 2014.04.04 04:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
It depends on your organization's priorities. Now, if your alliance has the kind of leaders who institute these taxes for their own gain, sure its worth being upset about. But most successful nullsec actors place their focus on organizational growth. Therefore, if your space is short on minerals, they wont dare tax the refineries, but if your group is loaded with miners, then they'll tax it in order to fulfill a strategic objective(including a positive monthly balance).
TL;DR - if it's a lame organization, then your fears are warranted. If your organization has competent leadership, then there's nothing to fear.
Jolly Codgers corp - Bloodthirsty old men of Null-Sec. -á PVP and organizational excellence through maturity, for pilots age 30+. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
2992
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Posted - 2014.04.04 12:03:00 -
[12] - Quote
SRPs aren't cheap, you know. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2552
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Posted - 2014.04.04 13:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Dr Grant wrote:I read all about the refining efficiency advantage in 0.0. In my experience a lot of it is going to be void, because the station owners will tax refining as an income source. What is your experience concerning this?
Be the station owner. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Scarlett LaBlanc
Midnight Savran Industries
80
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Posted - 2014.04.04 16:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
The industrialist gets access to the best refining yield possible.
The alliance gains tax revenue from the industrialist, perhaps enough to make them welcome or dare i say, mabey even desired as members. More industrialists move to null...
Local markets become better seeded with products that can be sold at discount to Jita and the industrialist still makes a profit.
Problems?? |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3319
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Posted - 2014.04.04 18:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Thur Barbek wrote:afkboss wrote:Stayed in a few different nullsec outposts and none had refining tax. ^^^^^^^^ if your getting refine tax - time to change corps/alliances or talk to leadership.
Very, very few outpost owners tax mining at all, because the amount of mining that happens in null isn't generally high enough to make it a strong income stream. This becomes especially true once you consider the logistics of actually realizing money from those taxes - you basically have to have a large producer willing to buy whatever you get to supplement his imports. I sell the taxes (5% rate fwiw) to one of our supercap producers who uses a Titan to bridge around 3-4 freighters as a solution to the logistics problem, for example.
This may well continue to be true even after summer, too, but it'd depend on how much local industry pops up to take advantage of the cost difference. Outside that, only thing that'd change it as a rule would be having the option to take refine taxes as ore (so it could be compressed for ease of export) or simply straight isk based on estimated value of output.
Whether that's a relief or not probably depends on what your viewpoint is, but thinking that taxes would be a reason to leave is amusingly quaint. As was pointed out, neither the space itself nor the defense of it is free... Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Dr Grant
Building Inspectors
17
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Posted - 2014.04.04 19:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Thur Barbek wrote:afkboss wrote:Stayed in a few different nullsec outposts and none had refining tax. ^^^^^^^^ if your getting refine tax - time to change corps/alliances or talk to leadership. Very, very few outpost owners tax mining at all, because the amount of mining that happens in null isn't generally high enough to make it a strong income stream. This becomes especially true once you consider the logistics of actually realizing money from those taxes - you basically have to have a large producer willing to buy whatever you get to supplement his imports. I sell the taxes (5% rate fwiw) to one of our supercap producers who uses a Titan to bridge around 3-4 freighters as a solution to the logistics problem, for example. This may well continue to be true even after summer, too, but it'd depend on how much local industry pops up to take advantage of the cost difference. Outside that, only thing that'd change it as a rule would be having the option to take refine taxes as ore (so it could be compressed for ease of export) or simply straight isk based on estimated value of output. Whether that's a relief or not probably depends on what your viewpoint is, but thinking that taxes would be a reason to leave is amusingly quaint. As was pointed out, neither the space itself nor the defense of it is free...
The point being:
a.) if taxes become the norm, the 0.0 advantage is either nonexistent or low for the individual player b.) if industry will see an upturn in 0.0 i am fairly certain it will be taxed, today's settings are not a benchmark c.) refine taxes will become a passive income stream for orgs just as rent, moon goo and rat tax. I consider that bad, because most organizations are not forthcoming about org wide income vs. expenses. I think most orgs are organized in a way that the leaderships gets a hefty profit from the operation. In any case if the empowerment of the individual is the goal, which CCP has stated, it is contra productive. d.) 3-7 % tax on a serious industry venture is not negligible. I think CCP should think hard about giving orgs more tools to extract money from members in a passive way.
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1286
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Posted - 2014.04.04 22:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
It's funny how the "fact" about those ebil alliance leadership people who take all the income for themselves is usually brought up by people who have never been part of any serious Internet spaceship organisation.
Let me tell you how being a part of it actually is like:
It's freighters. Lots and lots of Freighter runs. Moon goo to jita, ships to the staging. We have an alt Corp in Highsec that handles most of our logistics (and that's only for our Corp, not even talking about the alliance here). There are dozens of Freighter runs per week. Many more if sbus, tcus and ihubs need to be moved.
It's setting up multiple pos for supercap ops that don't happen, it's recruitment and dealing with spaceship drama.
It's paying out SRP for hundreds of people while making sure not to add that additional zero. It's answering the most stupid questions from even more stupid people. It's placing ihubs in dozens of systems. A mind-numbingly stupid task that needs a serious amount of concentration to not loose the Titans and freighters involved.
It's scouting. Scouting is even less exciting than Highsec mining in a 1.0 system.
Leadership is a lot of things, but it's certainly not being scrooge McDuck.
If you want your organisation to ne successful you need to make sure that any penny of income gets reinvested. And if that means buying a Titan for your Corp so you can Bridge your spacefriends into combat or your Freighter in the system that needs am ihub, I guess that is only fair. GRRR Goons |
Dr Grant
Building Inspectors
17
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Posted - 2014.04.04 23:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:It's funny how the "fact" about those ebil alliance leadership people who take all the income for themselves is usually brought up by people who have never been part of any serious Internet spaceship organisation.
It is funny how people assume stuff they know nothing about. I know your esteemed leader from back when he was still in LFA as a providence "pet". So yeah, i do have enough 0.0 experience under my belt for a lifetime.
Quote: Let me tell you how being a part of it actually is like:
It's freighters. Lots and lots of Freighter runs. Moon goo to jita, ships to the staging. We have an alt Corp in Highsec that handles most of our logistics (and that's only for our Corp, not even talking about the alliance here). There are dozens of Freighter runs per week. Many more if sbus, tcus and ihubs need to be moved.
It's setting up multiple pos for supercap ops that don't happen, it's recruitment and dealing with spaceship drama.
It's paying out SRP for hundreds of people while making sure not to add that additional zero. It's answering the most stupid questions from even more stupid people. It's placing ihubs in dozens of systems. A mind-numbingly stupid task that needs a serious amount of concentration to not loose the Titans and freighters involved.
It's scouting. Scouting is even less exciting than Highsec mining in a 1.0 system.
Leadership is a lot of things, but it's certainly not being scrooge McDuck.
If you want your organisation to ne successful you need to make sure that any penny of income gets reinvested. And if that means buying a Titan for your Corp so you can Bridge your spacefriends into combat or your Freighter in the system that needs am ihub, I guess that is only fair.
And yet, nothing of what you claimed is usually made transparent. It is just that - a claim. There are few alliances who show income and expenses. And on the other hand there are people who are known to have paid their mortgages via eve. So excuse me if i do not drink the "for the alliance/whatever" cool-aid.
In any case that can be argued ad infinitum. My point here i guess is that if the balance of power between the individual and organizations in 0.0 is considered, we do not need a mechanism that shifts it even further towards organizations. There are a few indicators that that balance is out of whack already. You can't get **** done in 0.0 without being part of some super coalition and that is just sad. I don't think we need that extended to industry now too.
Btw, noticed the firesale of capital blueprints? That is the lowsec producers getting rid of it, because cap productions will be soon monopolized by the "dedicated alliance cap producers". **** yeah.
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1286
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Posted - 2014.04.05 00:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
Exactly. F yeah. Finally. It only took like 10 years or so since the last time something cool for industry happened in null.
Oh, and that super coalition talk of yours. Go ask tri, the fountain core dudes and black Legion how they think about it. GRRR Goons |
Dr Grant
Building Inspectors
17
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Posted - 2014.04.05 00:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
You dont' get it. I have nothing against industry being better in null.
What i do not like is
a.) industry becoming monopolized by organizations through mechanisms that are entirely unnecessary
b.) individuals that have been largely independent so far becoming serfs to aforementioned organizations just as the renters and f1,f2,f3 monkeys.
I don't have anything against members financing organizations either. But it shouldn't be automatic and rather be based on visible benefits.
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1286
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Posted - 2014.04.05 00:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
Dr Grant wrote:
I don't have anything against members financing organizations either. But it shouldn't be automatic and rather be based on visible benefits.
So, renting > refinery tax?
GRRR Goons |
Dr Grant
Building Inspectors
17
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Posted - 2014.04.05 00:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Dr Grant wrote:
I don't have anything against members financing organizations either. But it shouldn't be automatic and rather be based on visible benefits.
So, renting > refinery tax?
It is the same. It is a tax on usage. In both cases you have no true idea what happens with that ISK. And at the same time the usage is pretty much monopolized (now with industry too) to make sure you must pay the tax. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1286
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Posted - 2014.04.05 00:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
I know exactly what happens to the isk.
I have a carrier, paid by my Corp. Whenever I loose a ship, my Corp buys me a new one, fully fitted. I can even keep the insurance. I have a Freighter, paid by my Corp. I use it to haul Corp stuff and make billions through industry jobs. My Corp even paid me the Plex to train an alt. I get free isotopes. If I had a super I could park it in a corp tower. All that and more. GRRR Goons |
Dr Grant
Building Inspectors
17
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Posted - 2014.04.05 00:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:I know exactly what happens to the isk.
I have a carrier, paid by my Corp. Whenever I loose a ship, my Corp buys me a new one, fully fitted. I can even keep the insurance. I have a Freighter, paid by my Corp. I use it to haul Corp stuff and make billions through industry jobs. My Corp even paid me the Plex to train an alt. I get free isotopes. If I had a super I could park it in a corp tower. All that and more.
That is totally awesome for you. However it just means you belong to the people who get their bills payed and not to the majority who pay the bills in 0.0. And if the dude recruited fresh from highsec would realize he pays your PLEX via his ratting drake he would probably not be too happy. Which reinforces my point about organizations not being transparent.
Edit: i would appreciate though if we can get it back to the industry topic.
My proposal: Make NPC Stations in 0.0 60 %. Remove Tax from refining in 0.0.
The industry players could pass along the benefits via cheap prices. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1286
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Posted - 2014.04.05 00:48:00 -
[25] - Quote
Switching is easy. You either pay someone to attend ctas and/or do logistics, or you do it yourself. Here is a secret for you: nobody gives a damn about what you do when things are quiet. If you want to mine, go and mine. Nulli even has a dedicated indu Corp .
The whole pass along the benefits thing is complete bullshit. The nullsec markets don't have the steady demand serious industrialists need.
GRRR Goons |
Dr Grant
Building Inspectors
17
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Posted - 2014.04.05 00:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Switching is easy. You either pay someone to attend ctas and/or do logistics, or you do it yourself. Here is a secret for you: nobody gives a damn about what you do when things are quiet. If you want to mine, go and mine. Nulli even has a dedicated indu Corp .
If i wanted this thread to be about Nulli i would have titled it "how Nulli operates in Nullsec". Here is a secret for you: i didn't. Therefore most of the stuff you post here is pretty much off-topic. The thread is about whether it is a good idea to give null sec alliances another passive income stream, not whether or not you hug your miners off duty. It is my opinion that it is NOT a good idea to give that passive income stream to nullsec alliances. I think however it is a good idea to buff nullsec industry. Both should not be co-dependant.
Quote: The whole pass along the benefits thing is complete bullshit. The nullsec markets don't have the steady demand serious industrialists need.
Sure. I guess that is why you mentioned the legion of freighters and scouts before. Because there is really nothing you need from highsec...
Newsflash: It is my impression that this nullsec buff is INTENDED to make nullsec more attractive and not the wasteland you people made it. I am just thinking it is going to fail miserably because it will end up being just another instrument of alliances filling their pockets.
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1286
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Posted - 2014.04.05 02:10:00 -
[27] - Quote
Quote:Sure. I guess that is why you mentioned the legion of freighters and scouts before. Because there is really nothing you need from highsec..
We buy pretty much everything from Highsec since it makes no sense to produce locally. For a whole lot of reasons. Even with massive changes we will continue to do so. The demand is very limited and very unstable. Those are horrible conditions for industrialists.
Quote:not the wasteland you people made it.
Game designers made nullsec a wasteland. GRRR Goons |
Solai
Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
197
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Posted - 2014.04.05 16:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
I suggest the OP go join a nullsec alliance so that he can get a more accurate impression of how it operates. Everything Gilabron has said so far is accurate. Particularly in highlighting that 'passing along the benefits' is not a useful thing, in null's present state.
Jolly Codgers corp - Bloodthirsty old men of Null-Sec. -á PVP and organizational excellence through maturity, for pilots age 30+. |
Allison A'vani
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
63
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Posted - 2014.04.05 17:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:I know exactly what happens to the isk.
I have a carrier, paid by my Corp. Whenever I loose a ship, my Corp buys me a new one, fully fitted. I can even keep the insurance. I have a Freighter, paid by my Corp. I use it to haul Corp stuff and make billions through industry jobs. My Corp even paid me the Plex to train an alt. I get free isotopes. If I had a super I could park it in a corp tower. All that and more.
PL's income is 100% transparent. Every year it is publicly posted. This is not anything out of the ordinary Dr Grant. All large alliances pay incentives to their most dedicated people. After the big war against the Russians, 13 or 14 months ago, our main FCs were paid in AT ships, r64 moons, free leadership characters, and/or PLEX.
All topes are provided by the alliance.
These are expected perks to being in a serious 0.0 alliance. Being a main FC or logistics dude for any decent size alliance is almost a second job and can be not only exhausting, but also make you not want to play the game anymore.
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6836
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
obviously taxes will be set so that the alliance gets a cut and the reprocessor still gets more there than in empire or a pos refinery
any tax of 5% or less leads to cheaper minerals even after tax Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
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