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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Hainnz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
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Posted - 2011.11.28 08:48:00 -
[91] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: Ahhahahahahaha... No.
Hiseccers aren't in lowsec because they're neurotically risk-averse. If it were sec status, they'd be in FW.
Probably has more to do with many/most hi-sec players being soloers. It can be fun playing the rabbit in low-sec for a while though. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
173
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Posted - 2011.11.28 09:17:00 -
[92] - Quote
I see a fair amount of highsec types playing "anti-pirate" in lowsec, and some that go GCC a few times, then dissapear for a while running missions until their sec is positive again.
For that same reason the GCC when shooting a POCO will discourage highsec corps/alliances from shooting pirate offices. |
Ulstan
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.11.28 17:32:00 -
[93] - Quote
I don't see big alliances rampaging through low sec specifically to kill POCO's. I'm sure they have much better things to do. POCO's take a long time to earn back their investment and are also vulnerable. They don't seem to me to be a particularly good way of earning ISK unless you are sure you can defend them easily.
The pirate corps that roam around in low sec will probably destroy a lot of POCO's (why not? They are already there) but I don't know if I see them or anyone else putting them back up once they are down.
POCO's really only work (they are a long term investment tool) if you already control the space they are in fairly well. There aren't a lot of groups doing this in low sec because low sec in general is not very profitable and POCO's by themselves are not going to change that. |
Ulstan
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.11.28 17:35:00 -
[94] - Quote
I don't see big alliances rampaging through low sec specifically to kill POCO's. I'm sure they have much better things to do. POCO's take a long time to earn back their investment and are also vulnerable. They don't seem to me to be a particularly good way of earning ISK unless you are sure you can defend them easily.
The pirate corps that roam around in low sec will probably destroy a lot of POCO's (why not? They are already there) but I don't know if I see them or anyone else putting them back up once they are down.
POCO's really only work (they are a long term investment tool) if you already control the space they are in fairly well. There aren't a lot of groups doing this in low sec because low sec in general is not very profitable and POCO's by themselves are not going to change that. |
Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra Gallente Federation
18
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Posted - 2011.11.28 23:09:00 -
[95] - Quote
They won't be simple targets simply because I don't see people putting up POCO's in lowsec at all.
Lowsec PI will simply die out, similar to how everything else in lowsec simply doesn't exist: missions, mining, ratting, incursions and really anything that doesn't involve a Covert Ops cloak or feeling like a pro pirate when you gank an 3 month old guy in a Drake with your gang of 5 faction cruisers.
What will happen is WH corps will probably set up a few to fuel their PoS and make a bit extra on the side. Nulsec alliances will set a few up to keep their PoSes running. All the people doing ninja PI with 2/3 characters in WSpace or lowsec will just stop doing it or maybe more their operations to HiSec. It's just a complete illusion if anyone thinks people will setup POCOs for actual profit. Heck, I have never even SEEN a planet in lowsec that had more than 1 guy using it, let alone one worth putting a 100mil POCO on just to collect 2000 isk per day in tax. There's a LOT more stuff that you can do in lowsec that is less effort, earns more and is less risk. Why would someone with any form of sanity want to put up POCOs in lowsec?
Prices on PI mats will go up like crazy and as a result t2/t3 production will become more expensive as a result of increased tower fuel costs. Eventually people will stop using their towers and revert back to public slots until a new market equilibrium is reached.
POCO's in lowsec are an insanely stupid idea. Rocket fuel @ 20k in two weeks. Robotics hitting 100k before the end of the year. |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
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Posted - 2011.11.28 23:15:00 -
[96] - Quote
Just to note your last point about people that use PoS's will stop and use public slots, your so very wrong. People will keep using their PoS's to do what they normally do. People have planned and gotten ready everything they need to for the boost in fuel costs and I would hope have made plans accordingly.
As a side note, this WILL increase the costs of setting up a new PoS however due to the PI mats going up and people wanting to still make a profit. Just something to keep in mind. |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
1
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Posted - 2011.11.28 23:22:00 -
[97] - Quote
Can you import goods to a planet that doesn't have a custom office? I realise you can fire rockets into space from your command centers, but does with work the other way? |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
92
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Posted - 2011.11.29 00:12:00 -
[98] - Quote
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:putting a 100mil POCO on just to collect 2000 isk per day in tax.
someone here is really really bad at math |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
60
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Posted - 2011.11.29 00:27:00 -
[99] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:putting a 100mil POCO on just to collect 2000 isk per day in tax. someone here is really really bad at math
Someone Playing EVE is bad at math? Well, bend me over and call me a submissive, i believe I am shocked. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
130
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Posted - 2011.11.29 00:50:00 -
[100] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:Can you import goods to a planet that doesn't have a custom office? I realise you can fire rockets into space from your command centers, but does with work the other way?
iirc, no |
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Athereon
ANZAC ACADEMY
3
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Posted - 2011.11.29 00:52:00 -
[101] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:Can you import goods to a planet that doesn't have a custom office? I realise you can fire rockets into space from your command centers, but does with work the other way?
No you can't. The only way to import goods is to use a customs office and a launchpad. If low sec planets loose their (PO)COs then they will not work as factory planets. People will probably use low sec planets to produce P1 or maybe P2 and then move that to hisec to produce P3 or P4. The higher tax rate plus transport costs will be added to the cost of the finished product resulting in a rise in PI prices and POS fuel blocks. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
410
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Posted - 2011.11.29 03:38:00 -
[102] - Quote
Assuming that the low-sec P1 harvest colony produces about 4800 P1/day, you'll be paying 50 ISK/u if the POCO is set to 10% for a grand total of about 240k ISK/day in export tariffs.
Which is a lot more then "2000 ISK/day".
(You'd have to charge about 15% and have a dozen users to pay the POCO off within about a month.) |
Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra Gallente Federation
18
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Posted - 2011.11.29 06:46:00 -
[103] - Quote
Hyperbole to create emphasis etc...
Yes, for 240k a day I'll set one up! O wait....
Heck even at 2 million a day it's way too much effort and risk involved for something that 10 bored BCs can reinforce if they feel like it. And that's before taking into consideration that any system/POCO that gets some sort of traffic will get camped sooner than later.
A lot of people don't do extraction PI because the 17-20mil per character slot you can usually average in lowsec is not enough for the risk and effort involved (effort here being clicking once a day or so). What makes you think people will go out of their way and invest 100mil into a destructible object that will earn them 240k a day? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
3
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Posted - 2011.11.29 23:51:00 -
[104] - Quote
This thing is really made of fail. Tax rates are 100 times what devs stated they would be in high sec, while big alliances and WH corps get another isk faucet. T2 will skyrocket in the short term over this as POS are forced to shut down due to no longer being profitable. |
Amon Sono
Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.11.29 23:52:00 -
[105] - Quote
While I applaud CCP for its continued innovation with the game I feel that POCO is a step backward for a goodly portion of the Eve comunity. I am a returning player that spent a long time away. Coming back to Eve i was delighted by the changes in PI. It reduced babysitting your colonies and put control of the process and what you get out of PI firmly into the hands of the player.
PI it seemed to me was never a big isk maker unless done in null sec, which is fine bigger risks and bigger rewards. Low sec was ok to do PI in if you have several characters coordinating efforts. Even then its something it was more something to do to pad the wallet rather then do as a main focus. High sec PI is not worth the time or effort. It is good to get your feet wet and learn the ropes, maybe experiment some but as a serious plan just not worth it.
The changes may make null sec PI more interesting but will ruin low sec for any non large corp. Small corps and independent players will not be able to compete. They will in time be completely squeezed out either by taxes or by having to launch materials rather then use the CO. The changes have also increased the babysitting needed for factory planets. Having to log in twice to keep your factories going is not a big deal. Having to do it five times a day now is a pain in the tush for little reward.
In conclusion the big boys once again get a boost while the little guy has a door closed in thier face. hmmmmm sounds familar I think I hear the sounds of drum circles and people yelling Occupy Jita |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
3
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Posted - 2011.11.30 00:24:00 -
[106] - Quote
Didn't we Occupy Jita over the Nex? |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
101
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Posted - 2011.11.30 03:16:00 -
[107] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:This thing is really made of fail. Tax rates are 100 times what devs stated they would be in high sec, while big alliances and WH corps get another isk faucet. T2 will skyrocket in the short term over this as POS are forced to shut down due to no longer being profitable.
I don't think you understand the concept of isk "faucets" and "sinks", at all. Total misuse. Nor do you seem to realize that the market just needs some time to reach a new equilibrium. Why would POS shut down, after all, if T2 is skyrocketing "in the short term"? None of what you post makes sense.
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Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
26
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Posted - 2011.11.30 03:25:00 -
[108] - Quote
pmchem,
I think I love you But what am I so afraid of? I'm afraid that I'm not sure of a love there is no cure for I think I love you Isn't that what life is made of? Though it worries me to say that I never felt this way
I don't know what I'm up against I don't know what it's all about I got so much to think about Hey, hey, hey
I think I love you But what am I so afraid of? I'm afraid that I'm not sure of a love there is no cure for I think I love you, isn't that what life is made of? So it worries me to say, that I never felt this way I think I love you I think I love you I think I love you I think I love you |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
5
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Posted - 2011.11.30 03:45:00 -
[109] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:This thing is really made of fail. Tax rates are 100 times what devs stated they would be in high sec, while big alliances and WH corps get another isk faucet. T2 will skyrocket in the short term over this as POS are forced to shut down due to no longer being profitable. I don't think you understand the concept of isk "faucets" and "sinks", at all. Total misuse. Nor do you seem to realize that the market just needs some time to reach a new equilibrium. Why would POS shut down, after all, if T2 is skyrocketing "in the short term"? None of what you post makes sense.
Read the dev blog, the taxes are set by CCP, but they're designed to fluctuate with the market. This effectively mean that there can be no equilibrium, because passing the cost along to the customer to maintain a profit margin simply guarantees that CCP will 'adjust' the 'base price' one way or another, depending on how bad things get.
And, yes, I do: An alliance, by it's nature, is better able to defend it's PI holdings then any corp. The only risk for them is the same risk that everything else in nullsec carries. Effectively, it increases their reward by eliminating any potential competition. This means that, for them, it would very much become a 'faucet'. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
102
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 03:53:00 -
[110] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Read the dev blog, the taxes are set by CCP, but they're designed to fluctuate with the market.
Are you telling me to read the dev blog when referring to a change that CCP made, AFTER the last POCO dev blog, directly because of the original post of this very thread, written by me? The mind boggles. Nolo contendere.
Also you still don't understand faucets/sinks in terms of isk supply, search it or something. |
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Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
6
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Posted - 2011.11.30 04:07:00 -
[111] - Quote
pmchem wrote: Are you telling me to read the dev blog when referring to a change that CCP made, AFTER the last POCO dev blog, directly because of the original post of this very thread, written by me?
Yes, I am, because it's a key point you seem to have missed. If the tax is variable, there cannot be any point it reaches equilibrium. Thus this permanently destabilizes the market, because you never know at what point or on what grounds CCP will change it. |
Immaya
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 04:08:00 -
[112] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: And, yes, I do: An alliance, by it's nature, is better able to defend it's PI holdings then any corp.
i love it when people state that alliances can have POCO's with out issues because they can defend it, but if you loose 10billion isk worth of subcaps defending a POCO, ehh it's not that profitable :) it's probably not worth defending them on a large scale as much as a small scale, it costs a lot to keep it running in 0.0 (i dunno what this thread is about honestly i'm just posting) |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 04:10:00 -
[113] - Quote
Immaya wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote: And, yes, I do: An alliance, by it's nature, is better able to defend it's PI holdings then any corp.
i love it when people state that alliances can have POCO's with out issues because they can defend it, but if you loose 10billion isk worth of subcaps defending a POCO, ehh it's not that profitable :) it's probably not worth defending them on a large scale as much as a small scale, it costs a lot to keep it running in 0.0 (i dunno what this thread is about honestly i'm just posting)
If you lost 10b worth of subcaps, they're probably after more then just your POCOs.... |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
102
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 04:17:00 -
[114] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:[quote=pmchem] Yes, I am, because it's a key point you seem to have missed. If the tax is variable, there cannot be any point it reaches equilibrium.
Math. Next you'll be telling me a sum of an infinite series of positive numbers cannot converge to a finite value. Besides, CCP doesn't need to change it daily, weekly, or even monthly. There isn't continuous flotation of reference values. They're not magically varying numbers. |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 08:39:00 -
[115] - Quote
Amon Sono wrote:The changes may make null sec PI more interesting but will ruin low sec for any non large corp. Small corps and independent players will not be able to compete. They will in time be completely squeezed out either by taxes or by having to launch materials rather then use the CO. The changes have also increased the babysitting needed for factory planets. Having to log in twice to keep your factories going is not a big deal. Having to do it five times a day now is a pain in the tush for little reward.
Couldn't agree more. PI seemed to me to be an individual enjoyment, for those of us interesting in things other than explosions. Now it's going to be forced onto the grand alliance scale. They'll dominate it all soon enough, at the expense of the individual and small corps. Worse still, the new system will allow them to tax people not affiliated with their group at an even larger rate!
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Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2011.11.30 09:07:00 -
[116] - Quote
POCO is a totaly fail. I predict prices for T2 higher than in 2006. It's hilarious. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
66
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 09:55:00 -
[117] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:[quote=pmchem] Yes, I am, because it's a key point you seem to have missed. If the tax is variable, there cannot be any point it reaches equilibrium. Math. Next you'll be telling me a sum of an infinite series of positive numbers cannot converge to a finite value. Besides, CCP doesn't need to change it daily, weekly, or even monthly. There isn't continuous flotation of reference values. They're not magically varying numbers.
.9999999...=1 (without rounding) Still pisses me off. I accept it as true because it is, but my mind doesn't do well with that type of infinity.
Unfortunately, this isn't an infinite series. This isn't really a series, as there's no way to procedurally generate the next number in the series. It's a set that changes at the whim of CCP.
That said, I doubt CCP will change it often (if Ever <.< >.> FW, etc) So equilibrium will be approached or reached, then CCP will change it and a new equilibrium will arise.
EDIT: Whoops, the infinite series thing was a crack at Cygnet, ignore my bit in the middle there. |
Ellin Einher
Galactic Express Intrepid Crossing
12
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Posted - 2011.11.30 11:34:00 -
[118] - Quote
PI was never a gold mine, you can make more money with moon goo, and less hassle, I see way more risk in placing POCO's than moon mining activities, so they should actually look into a little tax there, a nice 17% of market price as an isk sink to keep everything running smoothly.
There are lots of small corps with <10 members geared totally towards manufacture/research, and they don't have the means to defend POCO's, they rely totally in deterrent systems as in well defended POS's.
Fuels for POS's have been raising since PI started, making it every month less of a profit (and taking a lot of risks), and this is the icing on the cake, dealing the last blow to the small corps back to hisec (unless they can cling into a good moon to kick down the fuel costs). |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2011.11.30 12:01:00 -
[119] - Quote
True PI was never a massive gold mine that is Tech moons, however PI can be done totally solo and could not be directly disrupted that much by other players (only direct way was over-mining and resource depletion, but that's a side effect, not a direct attack on you). The indirect way people could screw with your PI 'gold mine' was to intercept you en-rout to either the CO or to the trade hub/drop off point, which happened in low/null alot and in high sec if you where war decced...or had wayy too much crap stuffed into a hauler and making yourself a suicide gank target.
Now you could keep 1-2 accounts EASILY subbed with a half assed 3 character set up with PI prior to the expansion. I know I kept 3 accounts topped up with plex using only 3 characters doing PI, the other 6 where making my monthly profit to be rolled back into paying for PoS fuel, new BPO's and new business ventures. Sure you can make more doing incursions or null sec exploration or what have you, but the good thing with PI was it was pretty much a passive income that paid for your plex and only demanded 10-20 minutes of your day in return.
Now with the PI taxes you can still pay for your plex's ijn high sec but if you now want to attempt to be a PI 'Baron' and hold several planets you can in low/null and tax your peasants whatever you want.
Now industry based corps will suffer slightly due to this as they have no military back up to call on if their POCO is attacked, however most industry based corps have got large sums of ISK in the corp wallets that they could offer mercs to help in defence of the more important/lucrative planets/POCO's and in return set them to blue, no taxes and payment for their protective services if needed.
True it may not work out that way every time and the mercs may just want to shoot at both sides in the end, but you never know. You could come to a very good working relationship and able to hold a system or two of worth while planets with outside protection if your a small indi corp.
People just need to learn to think outside the box when it comes to POCO defense. Get worked out deals before hand, then destroy the interbus CO, put up your own and have the mercs on call if it gets reinforced. They always love blowing stuff up and nothing is better than people that don't expect it. |
Ellin Einher
Galactic Express Intrepid Crossing
12
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Posted - 2011.11.30 12:15:00 -
[120] - Quote
Alisarina wrote:People just need to learn to think outside the box when it comes to POCO defense.
Give them some PG and let me plant a few static defenses, then I wont complain about anything in this expansion :). That way people that REALLY wants to take them down will still be able, and the people just messing around will have a harder time. |
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