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pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 07:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
I went through and got some numbers on sisi regarding highsec CO changes and nullsec POCOs. Highsec COs have indeed had all their import/export taxes doubled. The sisi export tax rate is 200 isk/m3 or 1200 isk/u for p3's (like robo), and 12 isk/m3 or 18 isk/u for p2's (like coolant). This corresponds to a "10%" tax rate in highsec on sisi. The sisi tax rate is essentially a joke number: it's based on a reference value that doesn't place any importance on the "market value" or "maximizing profit" aspects of the game at all. If we assume the p3 is Robotics (70k isk/u) and that the p2 (say, Mech Parts) is worth 10k isk/u, then the p3 tax rate is actually 1.7% and the p2 tax rate is a laughable 0.18% based on market values.
With current market prices, a POCO costs about 100m isk to fully deploy/upgrade (including BPC LP value). Unfortunately, the tax rate can not be set above 100%. Since the highsec values correspond to "10%", just imagine highsec x10 as the highest tax you can set on a POCO. If you have reds set to 100% tax rates and the reds are exporting p1s or p2s, they aren't going to care about the miniscule tax. On p3's a 100% tax rate is actually a fairly sizable hit, but not enough to stop a user if they don't have other easily accessible options, because what the heck, "my time is free". A 100% tax rate nullsec POCO is almost certainly more profitable than a highsec POCO doing extraction just because of nullsec abundancies. p1 extraction in nullsec is laughably cheap even at "100%" POCO tax rate. It's about 0.912 isk/u, which if you're extracting chiral corresponds to about a .12% market tax rate. It can essentially be ignored.
What does this mean for the overall market? Let's look at daily Jita volumes and assume an average "20%" tax rate for nullsec/lowsec POCOs. If half the PI supply comes from nullsec/lowsec, we can guesstimate how much prices should rise after an equilibrium is reached -- when POCOs have been deployed on all planets players have interest in, and when the market has evened out so that producers are making about as much profit (in isk/u) as they are now. Yeah, not totally realistic, but w/e it makes for an easier estimating. The rise is not that much, only about 1200 isk/u based on pure export value ( surprised? :math: ) for Robo, plus whatever trickle-up effect you get from more expensive p1/p2 supply and import costs. Call it about 2,000 isk/u overall. In short, if nullsec/lowsec taxes are not pretty much all set to 100%, the effect JUST FROM TAX CHANGES will not be a big deal. If everyone sets POCO tax rates to 100%, the effect is more amusing -- over a 10% rise in price -- but since most p3s are made in highsec that scenario is unrealistic. People buying PI goods to build POCOs and the disruption as POCOs are set up or fought over will have a much greater near-term impact on the PI market. Since PI is boring, it's likely that the near-term spike could be quite long lived. But any changes in price should be attributed to the setup and fighting over POCOs themselves, not to tax changes.
Can an alliance make isk from taxing POCOs in their region? Let's assume it supplies the entire universe with enriched uranium. That's about 1m units/day. At 100% tax rates (heh), that would be about 180m isk/day for the alliance, or 5.4b/month. That's a ridiculous scenario and it's still only a fraction of a tech moon. Basically, POCOs are terrible for alliance income until their handling of taxes is SUBSTANTIALLY changed by CCP, or the reference values for taxes reset way, way upward. Oh, and if your "20%" tax rate POCO has users exporting 100,000 units of p2s PER DAY (heh), it will still take a month to recoup costs of putting it there in the first place.
WHAT CAN BE DONE? Well, as I mentioned in two older, less-wordy posts: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=208048#post208048 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=224363#post224363 CCP needs to give the POCO owners greater control over the exact taxes. I would recommend the following:
FIRST: reset the default "reference tax values" to represent full Winter 2011 market value of the average good for that tier, instead of the fantasy values they currently have. This would have two immediate effects: increasing the isk paid by users of highsec COs (an increase of an isk SINK, which your economist should love), and increasing the range of values over which POCOs can be taxed. This is the easy, no-brainer option.
SECOND: give the POCO owner the ability to change those "reference tax values", per tier (p0/p1/p2/p4 goods). This is an expansion of the current fairly nice POCO configuration menu and would allow POCO owners total flexibility in setting their tax rates, saving future game balance headaches. Just let the players handle the market, as it should be.
If CCP does not do this, there are SERIOUS FUTURE GAME DESIGN PROBLEMS which will crop up: Problem 1: nobody likes POCOs. Corporate joes bug their corp CEO or alliance CEO to put POCOs up, because PI is important to some poor people. However, the corps and alliances hate the things because they can not provide good income, have to be deployed in dozens/hundreds of places, and sometimes get shot at. They are Not Fun. Problem 2: nobody cares about POCOs. If they don't generate corp/alliance income, and if they're trivial to replace, nobody is going to bother to reinforce them, or defend/kill them when they are somehow reinforced.
It's clear POCOs are going to be the fundamental interface between Eve and DUST 514. Please don't screw up their economics, or DUST will fail. That's something CCP cannot afford. Please change POCOs before release. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
179
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 09:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yea, right. |
Kirin Falense
Some names are just stupid
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 11:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ive come to similar conclusions.... |
Usurpine
Galactic Defence Consortium United Pod Service
20
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 16:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Its ok for me if DUST will fail. I dont want buy a console for playing it anyway. |
KarmaHotelLobby
Aliastra Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 21:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
Any reason not to have an interface giving 4 options.
Isk per p1 Isk per p2 Isk per p3 Isk per p4
Set a flat isk amount, with ultimate flexibility, no need for percentages because they make no sense anyway? |
Hamatitio
Aperture Harmonics K162
25
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 22:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
tl;dr please? :) |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 23:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Usurpine wrote:Its ok for me if DUST will fail. I dont want buy a console for playing it anyway.
Don't be shortsighted. This affects Eve, even if DUST never comes into being. Ignore the bits about DUST if you want - the point is that for an "alliance level income source", these are laughable at best. |
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 23:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Just to build on the numbers a bit.
Assumptions: 2% tax on PI product value (upped from 1.7 as given in earlier post) 150 mil a month in product creation (2 charactors, 4/5 skills on both) 10 planets 20 corp members doing PI.
Costs 100 mil for each POCO to install.
The math.
2% of 150 mil is 3 mil. 3 mil x 20 players is 60 mil a month in taxes generated. Cost was 1 Bil to install, that gives you a ROI of 16.67 months. So for you to start generating a profit is 17 months. Does not sound like a good idea to me for any small corperation. Even larger ones may suffer.
So if this is all about putting the power back in the hands of the players and giving something for corperations to make money from your wrong. Your own numbers do not justify it except for large (huge) alliances that have a fairly defendable area and can run operations 24 hours a day to defend thier intial investment. I know there is a 24 hour timer, however putting these into reinforcement is going to be just the start. At some point someone else will come along to destroy the ones coming out of reinforcement and the owning corperation will just not have enough people on to do anything about it. its just too juicy a target and too costly for owning corps not to.
So if this was to give small corps/alliances a chance at a pot of gold you have missed your mark. There is no gold at the end of this rainbow, just misery and missed opportunity.
It does however give the new NAGA and Talos something to shoot at and provides a unique niche for these ships. |
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 00:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
A goon posted this so somehow it is a scam. I feel like I should check my wallet after reading it. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
136
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 00:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
If you want changes, you'd likely be better off posting in the test server forum where it might get read by a dev. |
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pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 04:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:If you want changes, you'd likely be better off posting in the test server forum where it might get read by a dev.
I posted links to the this discussion there in two POCO threads.
Regarding isk per p1, p2, etc comment -- I think the percents will be staying. It's because you can set taxes at different rates based on standings red/blue/orange/etc. Plus when you show info on a POCO it tells you your tax "rate", not rate per p1, rate per p2, etc. An interface thing. But, my second suggestion (allow user customization of reference value for p1, p2, etc) would have the same solution you desire. |
trianna Ekanon
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 08:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
It never ceases to amaze me just how terrible people in this game can be at something with even the simplest of mechanics like PI. I suppose the key to being profitable with POCO's is simply not having idiots on your planet. Hell my single PI account would pay for the damn thing in a month and a half. |
Via Shivon
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
19
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 10:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
if tis to expensive for my alliance we will set them up with the corp, if its still to expensive ill buy them myself and earn the tax :D
3b investment for 6 planets i get in 3 weeks PI at the current high prices |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
57
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 22:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
With today's blog announcing Interbus COs going up in place of all current lowsec/nullsec COs, POCOs just became an even worse thing for their owners. They have to compete with Interbus CO tax rates (the new 'standard'). Since that rate is low and the cost of putting up a POCO is a few months of taxes (at least), killing the Interbus COs is pretty much a form of griefing to whoever lives in that space. Any local resident would prefer an Interbus CO over putting up their own, given the current taxation schemes and POCO costs.
Regarding PI usage in general -- yes PI usage needs to be expanded but that is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about how, given the current market, POCO taxation options are absolutely terrible and will lead to players not enjoying this new game feature, at all. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
365
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 06:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:If you want changes, you'd likely be better off posting in the test server forum where it might get read by a dev.
Actually, you'd be better off posting them in the most recent POCO thread, rather then burying the feedback in some random S&I forum thread. |
trianna Ekanon
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 07:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
pmchem wrote:With today's blog announcing Interbus COs going up in place of all current lowsec/nullsec COs, POCOs just became an even worse thing for their owners. They have to compete with Interbus CO tax rates (the new 'standard'). Since that rate is low and the cost of putting up a POCO is a few months of taxes (at least), killing the Interbus COs is pretty much a form of griefing to whoever lives in that space. Any local resident would prefer an Interbus CO over putting up their own, given the current taxation schemes and POCO costs.
Regarding PI usage in general -- yes PI usage needs to be expanded but that is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about how, given the current market, POCO taxation options are absolutely terrible and will lead to players not enjoying this new game feature, at all.
you're missing the point, if PI is expanded into a widespread and competitive market, suddenly justifying installing and fighting over the newly available tax revenue can become a reality.
Right now theres too few opportunities to actually create a sizeable tax revenue spread across many tens of thousands of planets.
Think of it like research slots, thered be no reason to make research poses if there were enough station slots to go around. Sae for invention and bpo copying. |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
I'm currently looking at the tax system right now so I can update my profit calculator and... I'm not seeing much of a difference on sisi compared to what it is now and I'm not seeing where the settable percent comes into play. If you want to see how the taxes will affect prices, my program does allow you to change the tax rate. Can't do percents right now though, but can take any number you give it. PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them! |
Quinc4623
Borg Mining Collective Unimatrix 01 Legion. XIII
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
I think the main reason one might need a POCO is just to make use of a planet at all. Doing 1 500m3 launch from the command center at a time is entirely impractical, but if you have control over a lot of 0.0 space you'll want to actually take advantage of the planets there. In a large enough alliance or corporation with enough PI users it can easily be worth while with a proper program of shared PI profits. But yeah, the taxes bit doesn't sound like it would be very worth it by itself.
I have a number of very profitable planets in 0.2 systems and quite frankly I'm going to have to abandon them on the 28th since I don't see anyone maintaining POCOs in low sec. There are gangs that gank random POS and so there will be those who gank POCO, and only those related to an organized PI scheme will be defended or replaced, and those might be blocked off to outsiders, (and more likely in null than low).
Quite frankly I'm worried about how this will affect the costs of having a POS as everyone will rely on high sec for all their PI, which plain and simply don't give nearly as much actual Planetary Goods. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
60
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 22:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
trianna Ekanon wrote:pmchem wrote:With today's blog announcing Interbus COs going up in place of all current lowsec/nullsec COs, POCOs just became an even worse thing for their owners. They have to compete with Interbus CO tax rates (the new 'standard'). Since that rate is low and the cost of putting up a POCO is a few months of taxes (at least), killing the Interbus COs is pretty much a form of griefing to whoever lives in that space. Any local resident would prefer an Interbus CO over putting up their own, given the current taxation schemes and POCO costs.
Regarding PI usage in general -- yes PI usage needs to be expanded but that is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about how, given the current market, POCO taxation options are absolutely terrible and will lead to players not enjoying this new game feature, at all. you're missing the point, if PI is expanded into a widespread and competitive market, suddenly justifying installing and fighting over the newly available tax revenue can become a reality. Right now theres too few opportunities to actually create a sizeable tax revenue spread across many tens of thousands of planets.
No, I'm not missing the point. My post and analysis is based on a specific set of data: reality. Current proposals and test server data, current game mechanics, current market consumption of PI goods. I feel like you're some incognito CCP dev going "no just wait, if the PI market is expanded everything will be ok I promise!" Well, that's nice, and I realize that POCOs will be more attractive if PI usage is greatly expanded and PI becomes a higher isk volume market.
Right now, it's not. Deal with it. |
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 20:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
So POCOS are not a good investment for Null mega alliances but could be worth it to smaller alliances/ renters. Working as planned. |
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pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
68
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 17:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
JitaJane wrote:So POCOS are not a good investment for Null mega alliances but could be worth it to smaller alliances/ renters. Working as planned.
No, you are wrong. They are even worse for smaller alliances since it will take them much longer to make a profit on their investment of laying down a POCO. Interbus COs are much better for small groups. Killing Interbus COs will be a form of griefing. |
Borun Tal
One More Corp
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 17:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
A wall of text... FROM A GOONIE?!?!?!?
WTF is happening to these forums?!!?!!? C'mon, people, we have standards, here!! |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
69
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 14:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
You may accuse us of many things, but one thing we are not guilty of is not reading this thread!
We are monitoring this and many other threads, I won't get into defense mode and try and defend the feature against all sorts of claims. I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income.
Regarding the taxation topic itself. I have called a meeting with CCP:s economist to go through the issues raised.
Best regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
153
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 14:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Omen,
You have access to the database. Have you checked how much isk/day is paid per lowsec PI colony? And what are the average and maximum numbers of colonies per lowsec planet?
In other words, do you have any evidence that POCOs can pay for themselves via taxes? My quick calculations gave me something silly like 20 years for a single P1 export colony. |
Bastet Aiona
Tir Capital Management Group The Mockers AO
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 16:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:. I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. Omen
Could you give me a method to send you a private message on some pretty extensive plans to give you insight on how a low sec dweller is looking at using this feature - I prefer not to splatter these plans all over the forums though - they go beyond simply putting up some POCO's - but I think you'd like to see a preliminary plan of action and see how that fits into your view. I don't expect you to change anything based on that view - but perhaps seeing it will give you some ideas.
EVE Mail okay? |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
75
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 17:51:00 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You may accuse us of many things, but one thing we are not guilty of is not reading this thread!
We are monitoring this and many other threads, I won't get into defense mode and try and defend the feature against all sorts of claims. I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income.
Regarding the taxation topic itself. I have called a meeting with CCP:s economist to go through the issues raised.
Best regards Omen
Omen, thank you for the reply. In the long term, I imagine that PI income should be much more important than moon mineral income. That will be necessary for DUST 514 to succeed, as players will need to REALLY care about planets. When PI becomes more important than moons, alliances will not be taxing their own POCOs at 0%. Instead, POCOs will be a form of alliance income. That is why I am so concerned about the taxation issue: without it having higher reference values and also being fully customizable by the players, there is much less incentive for players to deploy and fight over control of POCOs.
Hopefully your economist will appreciate both the disparity between current reference values / market values, and how the increased taxation would function as an ISK sink. PI-producing players themselves could pass off the increased taxation in the form of higher prices at market, so a change in default taxes should not "hurt the little guy". |
Crias Taylor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
76
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 18:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
Bastet Aiona wrote:
It's not the ability to protect the POCO that needs to be increased - it's the ability to simply KNOW that your attackers are serious about attacking (in general) rather than simply looking to make life stressful and difficult for you.
Consider it a preview what to holding sov is like. We get attack mails if someone even reps the station services.-á |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
153
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bastet Aiona wrote: Because the POCO's are essentially open pinata's that anyone can attack at any given time,
POCOs don't drop anything on destruction, so you can't really call them a pi+¦ata
Quote:it's our expectation to constantly be harassed with warnings of POCOs under attack from single shot passer bys and timers constantly being set off with no intention of removing the POCO. The time it takes to reinforce a POCO is quite easy with a sizable force, Devs have said they won't send a mail until a sizable amount of damage has been done (to avoid spam). Besides, odds are you won't get there in time before they reinforce, so it shouldn't matter much.
Quote:and we expect a lot of harassment in the early days of our deployment and constant false alarms.
How easily it can be done with no cost to the attacker is the main problem. In Low Sec we don't have warp bubbles or any ability to stop a force from simply warping away and docking. If they choose to hit with no investment, they lose nothing. So they have nothing to defend, nothing to lose and no reason NOT to simply harass and hit the POCO's just because they can. Seems to me you are complaining about how hard it will be to defend POCOs far away from your base.
This is bad how? |
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Industries
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
pmchem wrote:CCP Omen wrote:You may accuse us of many things, but one thing we are not guilty of is not reading this thread!
We are monitoring this and many other threads, I won't get into defense mode and try and defend the feature against all sorts of claims. I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income.
Regarding the taxation topic itself. I have called a meeting with CCP:s economist to go through the issues raised.
Best regards Omen Omen, thank you for the reply. In the long term, I imagine that PI income should be much more important than moon mineral income. That will be necessary for DUST 514 to succeed, as players will need to REALLY care about planets. When PI becomes more important than moons, alliances will not be taxing their own POCOs at 0%.
for more players to care about PI it has to be amended to actually be something people want to do rather than have to do. its current state is far from a want to do game mechanic. i do get that a few people liek to do it, but from every one i know that does pi, that number is very few |
tengen san
Triton-TC
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 00:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
The subject of taxation is coherently with the desire/estimation to set up a POCO in first place, none will daub this. On another notice to the closing words of the PO, I do not see an imminent relevance to the D514 implementation AND dependence to the success, as for now, most if not all D514 engagement is considered to be on Temperate Planets only (please refer to the Interview with Hallan Fannar on dust514.org)
Quinc4623 wrote:I think the main reason one might need a POCO is just to make use of a planet at all. Doing 1 500m3 launch from the command center at a time is entirely impractical, but if you have control over a lot of 0.0 space you'll want to actually take advantage of the planets there. In a large enough alliance or corporation with enough PI users it can easily be worth while with a proper program of shared PI profits. But yeah, the taxes bit doesn't sound like it would be very worth it by itself.
I have a number of very profitable planets in 0.2 systems and quite frankly I'm going to have to abandon them on the 28th since I don't see anyone maintaining POCOs in low sec.
Using the CC launch is worthless for one and for second the ability to build/use a Launchpad is conjoint with the existence of a CO /POCO, third, any further import requires a CO/POCO just As for now each and every single low sec planet contains a CO, thus not only risk. /. reward is in balance but the market as well. The question herby is, why even bother to set up a POCO in a low sec system in first place if a.) the tax profitability is next to nothing with a mere 1-3 or 2-5 CCGÇÖs on the ground. b.) no advanced knowledge what type of production is on the ground, in regards of the taxable reverence value of P1/P2/P3/P4.
CCP Omen wrote:I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income.
Thank you very much for the consiterations, but further review must be done as for now non of the above will be possible in low sec.
The taxation for 0.0. Alliances as a problem would not GÇ£really occurGÇ¥, as assumable there will be other means come to task to GÇ£taxGÇ¥ the renter, but it will have a devastating effect on low sec.
I daub heavily anyone who is able to operate a calculator will seriously invest near to a bill for POCO to cover a P1-P4 production circle in a low sec system, as only the base materials will be retrieved and valued production will be directed to high sec. This, caused by diversity in separated tax values will make the diversity obsolete in the run, thus the desire to set up a POCO in low sec.
Function of a 0.0 PI operations within an alliance is to discriminate to low sec with rather general than allied PI usage.
But even if there would be a hypothetical widespread POCO low sec use with a, as proposed, taxation system at work, the in-balance of tax earnings would be in 0.0. fare greater compared to low sec with the ability to roll out valued production to high sec. However this will not be the case, as low sec PI will come to an halt and the in-balance then will be created by the PI monopol of 0.0.
The whole change from CO to POCO should/must be revised for a resubmittal and the implementation for 28.Nov seriously reconsidered to the next extension.
a.No tax income to receive in 0.0. and low sec to justifying the investment b.Dismounting all CO's throughout low sec is counterproductive to the attempt of revitalize low sec.
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Mishatola
Atoll Explorers
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 05:21:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You may accuse us of many things, but one thing we are not guilty of is not reading this thread!
I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income.
Regarding the taxation topic itself. I have called a meeting with CCP:s economist to go through the issues raised.
Best regards Omen
Right now they ARE valid for small corporations IF they use the planets themselves, and use the POCO's to deny anybody else;s use of the planet... to prevent depletion issues.
However, is that all you want? Or is your goal to make it so small corps can provide POCOs as a service to others? If so then work needs to be done. I think I've followed all your posts and i'm still unclear on your goals in this area. |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 08:03:00 -
[32] - Quote
how I see POCO's as they stand to be implemented in real world views is thus:
- A giant balloon that cost over $2000 with writing on it saying 'Pop me, I'm an easy kill'
Now imagine that being taken to a school of 8-12 year olds. What will happen to every balloon like that in the yard after the first or second day? They will all be popped and no-one will want to replace them due to the cost. Not a great example due to balloons not actually doing anything productive but the principle is the same, there is no incentive to replace popped/destroyed balloons due to the cost and how easy they are popped/destroyed.
In low sec, any of the systems that border onto a high sec connection or within 2-3 jumps of one will be prime targets for 'pirates' and bored people that just want to make other peoples lives hell. A fleet of 5-10 BS's or as many new tier 3 BC's will be able to go in and within 2-3 hours wipe out every planets CO, well put them into reinforce mode, and the move onto the next system to do it again. Now no way in hell there will only be 1 small gang doing this, so expect all low sec system CO's within say 3 jumps of a HS system to be in reinforced by at best the 1-2nd of December, and a day or so after that, without CO's at all.
Now sure some may go about replacing the destroyed CO's with their own POCO's on the 'best' planets but that alone would make them a prime target, even if the tax was 0%. Why? Cos haters gonna hate and people like blowing other peoples **** up for a laugh. Come Christmas low sec planets not being 'guarded' by corps/alliances will be void of CO's (both interbus and POCO's) and thus make them 'dead'. There will be no way to import to them making factory planets non-existant, and exporting via launches is both annoying as hell and in some/most cases, wholly inadequate for the task at hand due to high-ish yields. Also with Christmas coming up alot of the bored ounger players will have time to roam around and blow up CO's thinking they are 'the boss' because they killed a structure that cannot fight back and no-one can be bothered defending or unable to defend due to the shear number of them being attacked.
Now with all the doom and gloom said above here are some thoughts I have regarding the CO/POCO's and how to make them both viable as an investment (without forcing massive tax and forcing away 'clients' from your planet..or making them want to pop your multi million ISK investment cos your a money grubbing bastard) and as a place that can actually defend itself to a limited degree.
First off POCO defence:
Currently the proposed POCO's have no defensive capabilities at all. This will result, as stated above, they will be shot at simply due to the fact that they are there.
I propose after setting them up to be functional, you can upgrade it just like the CC. I will admit I havn't thought this through properly but I want to get it out there before the 29th:
Level: Name: 1 Customs Office (or POCO) 2: Trade Center 3: Trade Hub 4: Outpost (I know the names used, need to come up with a better one) 5: Fortified Trading Hub
Now what they do: CO/POCO: Work how they work currently on SiSi/Tranq
Trade Center: Works the same as above but better shields/armour
Trade Hub: As above but allows anchoring of small-medium PoS guns (small number) (only shoot if aggressed, even if the owning corp is at war with someone using the CO)
Outpost: As above but add in Large guns
Fortified Trade Hub: More shields, armour and structure as all of the others, able to have more guns
The way to make more ISK from them is each level of CO will assist with locating better hot spots on the planet they orbit and allows the planet to have slightly higher yields. However the disadvantage would be there can only be 1 of each type in any given system, except the basic CO/POCO, so there is incentive to still blow up the bigger ones and such.
The advantage would be:
Level: Resource boost: 1 0% 2 3% 3 6% 4 10% 5 15%
Now the boost would be to the planets available resources, not player extractor production or factory output, just what can be found (making the advanced ones useless on a world used just as a factory world, which is intended). The % jumps would be reflected in the cost of setting them up and the fact only 1 of each could be present at any given time in a system.
Long post I know but hey, if the threads being read by the devs, it's the best place to put it to 'paper' after all.
Also note the guns would have to be deployed and anchored by the owning corp, kind of like a PoS, but have no functionality for them to fight on war dec targets or under a certain standing, only if aggressed.
Thoughts on this for those that actually read it all would be great. |
Kaaii
Kaaii-Net Research Labs KAAII-NET
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 09:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP -
Will there / are there plans for a faction variant of the poco?
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
380
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 14:15:00 -
[34] - Quote
Alisarina wrote: I propose after setting them up to be functional, you can upgrade it just like the CC. I will admit I havn't thought this through properly but I want to get it out there before the 29th:
Level: Name: 1 Customs Office (or POCO) 2: Trade Center 3: Trade Hub 4: Outpost (I know the names used, need to come up with a better one) 5: Fortified Trading Hub
What you've described is basically what we said back when the first devblog was announced - make them into POS tower structures with the capability to only anchor select POS arrays/batteries. Make them require less fuel/day then their full-fledged brethren. Or let us anchor POS towers at the planets and anchor a POCO as a battery outside the shield.
The devs basically ignored or glossed over the issue of defenses, repeatedly - probably because they didn't have time to rework the entire POCO concept before the 28th (and it is too much of a "sacred cow" to be pulled completely for a 2-3 month rework). |
tengen san
Triton-TC
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 15:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
The devs basically ignored or glossed over the issue of defenses, repeatedly - probably because they didn't have time to rework the entire POCO concept before the 28th (and it is too much of a "sacred cow" to be pulled completely for a 2-3 month rework).
You are right there.
Abstract: There three systems (0.0.,low sec, high sec) containing for now a constant (CO), now you take out two constants and leave only one with it and create two with inconstancyGÇÖs. This certainly creates an in-balance. It eventually balance itself over the time by marginalizes one system behind usability, and rest assured this wonGÇÖt be 0.0.
It is impossible to test this on Sisi, you only can test the small ends of it but not the impact of the whole implementation. You have to work on statistic and Bayesian Probability calculations to get proximity to the probable effect. This is Project management on an essential change and not just dropping a new feature.
Furthermore: The change of POS fuel base will be effective approximately 6 weeks AFTER Nov. 28, to provide time to obtain the requested new BPO for the fuel cubes from NPC stations and start up the production circle.
I havenGÇÖt read anything close in regards to it for POCOGÇÖs answering to the implementation schedule, for now the axe is falling on Nov 28;
POCO BPCGÇÖs are not to obtain at regular NPC shops only to obtain at: Concord LP shops (prerequisite = participation in Incursions) Faction LP shops (prerequisite = participation in Faction warfare missions)
This limitation alone will prolong the absent of any POCOs for a sustained time in 0.0. and low sec. explicitly in low sec. not even considerd it will rise the expense to build one up to 50% on the market, makes it even less attractive to bother with the build and placing, as long as the earning (tax issue) isnGÇÖt solved accordingly.
If CO is taken out at once in 0.0. and low sec on Nov 28 you guillotine the whole process. There must be a step by step implementation starting with 0.0., 2 weeks later 0.1, again 2 weeks later 0.2 and so on OR vice versa.
Anything else will be an amputation without anesthetization with eruptive effects. Again, please reconsider to postponed the implementation date (next extension) as for now there are too many unsolved issues concerning the profitability (tax) and the operation of POCO's as a whole. Implementation schedule and object itself at the present stage is nothing more than another plastic duck placed in the water players can shoot at as the economic and industrial impact is lengthy neglected.
If implemented as proposed, there will be a never ending stream of nerfGÇÖs und buffGÇÖs on the pathway. ItGÇÖs foreseeable! |
Billy Colorado
La Quieta
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 15:46:00 -
[36] - Quote
I think an AFK defense is BOOOOORRRRRRIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGGG, and am pretty interested in the dynamic this will create, in low sec especially, if CCP doesn't cave and lets people anchor guns around these things.
I'm no economist, but if POCOs are getting destroyed in low sec, won't that create scarcity? In turn pushing prices of PI goods up, and making consistent and organized low sec corporations viable and desirable?
I mean, I keep seeing people say "why bother". Well, if there's lots of cash money to be made, wouldn't you bother? Even to the extent that you might be interested in building an infrastructure in the area, including defensive capabilities in the shape of PEOPLE to defend your POCO?
I like this notion of localizing resources. If you're mining, PIing in an area, then live there, and build something around it. Particularly in Lowsec.
I mean, this might even make the mercenary trade viable. Would you hire someone of good reputation to protect your assets, if their fee did not make your efforts unprofitable? |
tengen san
Triton-TC
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 16:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
Billy Colorado wrote:I think an AFK defense is BOOOOORRRRRRIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGGG, and am pretty interested in the dynamic this will create, in low sec especially, if CCP doesn't cave and lets people anchor guns around these things.
I'm no economist, but if POCOs are getting destroyed in low sec, won't that create scarcity? In turn pushing prices of PI goods up, and making consistent and organized low sec corporations viable and desirable?
I mean, I keep seeing people say "why bother". Well, if there's lots of cash money to be made, wouldn't you bother? Even to the extent that you might be interested in building an infrastructure in the area, including defensive capabilities in the shape of PEOPLE to defend your POCO?
I like this notion of localizing resources. If you're mining, PIing in an area, then live there, and build something around it. Particularly in Lowsec.
I mean, this might even make the mercenary trade viable. Would you hire someone of good reputation to protect your assets, if their fee did not make your efforts unprofitable?
If prices going up the build cost of POCOGÇÖs are going up as well, not to mention the prices for POS, this its entering a revolver door. Thie OP is subjecting basically on the Tax issue for planetary goods and displays now the infeasibility at the present stage.
Taking care on the small ends but leave the big ends to take care of them self won't work, never has worked.
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
76
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 16:14:00 -
[38] - Quote
POCOs have 15m EHP. That's their defense for now. They are very cheap to replace (100m isk) and have 15m EHP, plus a reinforcement timer. Some people may shoot them but it's not gonna be done casually because of "kids". It takes a long time to reinforce one unless you have a nicely sized, very high DPS gang (or capitals). Since they only cost 100m isk and have a reinforcement timer, they are trivial to defend/replace.
I am not worried about POCO defenses at the moment, they are low value targets. By design. |
Webster Carr
The Order of the Oar
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 16:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
One very simple thing that would make it worthwhile to many corp PI projects is to simply add a 'Corporate Hangar' to the POCOs for the corps owning them. Launches up can be launched to personal or corp hangar. Usual permissions on Corp Hangars apply. The appropiate corp member could then import to other production on same planet, run bulk pickups (with escort since each corp member no longer has to run pickups on his own planets), etc.... |
Shana Matika
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 17:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
pmchem wrote:POCOs have 15m EHP. That's their defense for now. They are very cheap to replace (100m isk) and have 15m EHP, plus a reinforcement timer. Some people may shoot them but it's not gonna be done casually because of "kids". It takes a long time to reinforce one unless you have a nicely sized, very high DPS gang (or capitals). Since they only cost 100m isk and have a reinforcement timer, they are trivial to defend/replace.
I am not worried about POCO defenses at the moment, they are low value targets. By design.
Well so are noob frigs - but do you see any stop shooting them while traveling through a lowsec gate?
They will get destroyed just for the "tears". And while a Lowsec-POS can get a fairly good defence this things just float in space like a big, fat "Shoot me" sign. |
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
154
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 17:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
Shana Matika wrote:pmchem wrote:I am not worried about POCO defenses at the moment, they are low value targets. By design. Well so are noob frigs - but do you see any stop shooting them while traveling through a lowsec gate? Yea, I do. They are not worth the 15 minute GCC and sentry aggro. Of course, if you are already GCCed, you might as well do it, it takes one shot, doesn't cost you anything, and you never know.
Now don't compare one-shotting a noobship with a structure that takes a 10 man gang half an hour to reinforce, plus another 30 minutes a day later to kill (at a time you don't choose). |
tengen san
Triton-TC
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 18:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
pmchem wrote:POCOs have 15m EHP. That's their defense for now. They are very cheap to replace (100m isk) and have 15m EHP, plus a reinforcement timer. Some people may shoot them but it's not gonna be done casually because of "kids". It takes a long time to reinforce one unless you have a nicely sized, very high DPS gang (or capitals). Since they only cost 100m isk and have a reinforcement timer, they are trivial to defend/replace.
I am not worried about POCO defenses at the moment, they are low value targets. By design.
To the contrary! They are very high valued target in the strategic sense. Who controls PI controls the market if not the game itself.
If I would had the human resource and the GÇ£hardwareGÇ¥ I would do following:
Setting up 10 -15 roaming gangs of 5-8 of new T3BC (13k alpha each) hitting preselected targets in 0.1/0.2/0.3 low sec spaces. Should not take the gang too long to bring a POCO down provide they have some haulers in the fleet with enough ammunition. Forget about 04., the planets a.) are not worthwhile to install a POCO anyway to take the risk and b.) 0.4. is the playground for all who want to shoot at things. So things in 04. are being taken care off anyway.
Whenever a POCO pops up the gang is systematically take them down within the whole system. As there wonGÇÖt be many of POCOs in low sec anyway on the above named reasons, the task of eradicating any serious competition should be not that difficult. If the operation is planned and executed on a sustained base, any resistance or appetite to set up a new one will soon erode. In the long term this will foster the shift of any valued PI into 0.0., where price dictates can be arranged within the circles of the power holder.
You see there are a deep strategic value to GÇ£poffGÇ¥ a POCO once the eyes of market gouger fall on it.
The 100mil is just the build price for the BPC holder. The market price will be +100%, 200mil x 5 to cover a P1-P4 production is a substantial investment to put on line never to see its amortization.
Moving on.
|
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 18:39:00 -
[43] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You may accuse us of many things, but one thing we are not guilty of is not reading this thread!
J'accuse, mon petit Fromage, J'accuse.
But really, glad to hear you're looking into ROI on these.
That said, more structure bashing... *sob*
(Troll sandwich is like compliment sandwich. troll-real post-troll. Helps maintain a slim, flattering forum presence) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
384
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 18:58:00 -
[44] - Quote
Unfortunately, in a game where you have ships that can deal a lot of damage quickly - no stacking issues involved with applying said damage - and no stacking issues getting everyone close enough to hit the target - you get blobs, bigger blobs and structures with lots of EHP is the only method that works as a counter.
(I'm not sure what the solution is. At least with missiles/torps, you could make it so that existing explosions on the target have a chance of destroying inbound missiles/torps, which would put an upper limit on how much damage you could apply per second due to all of the explosions. But that really doesn't work for hybrids / lasers.) |
Mishatola
Atoll Explorers
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 00:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
Shana Matika wrote:pmchem wrote:POCOs have 15m EHP. That's their defense for now. They are very cheap to replace (100m isk) and have 15m EHP, plus a reinforcement timer. Some people may shoot them but it's not gonna be done casually because of "kids". It takes a long time to reinforce one unless you have a nicely sized, very high DPS gang (or capitals). Since they only cost 100m isk and have a reinforcement timer, they are trivial to defend/replace.
I am not worried about POCO defenses at the moment, they are low value targets. By design. Well so are noob frigs - but do you see any stop shooting them while traveling through a lowsec gate? They will get destroyed just for the "tears". And while a Lowsec-POS can get a fairly good defence this things just float in space like a big, fat "Shoot me" sign.
That's not fair. They also will serve the following purposes: 1. Something to shoot at until your buddies at the gate have a target locked down. 2. Target practice, to see exactly how much DPS you can pump out.
|
tengen san
Triton-TC
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 18:06:00 -
[46] - Quote
I give it a month till all low sec Interbus COGÇÖs are blown out of the water for target practice and market strategic reasons.
CCP Omen, on behalf of team PI some adjustments for the first patch to come I want to suggest: Until now I can access (view) any item in any station hangar, NPCGÇÖs, Corp and POS (provide rights granted) but ever since I have no idea what my Hangar on a CO now transformed PCO holds until I was right in front of it.
CCP Omen, on behalf of team PI wrote: Just use drag&drop items from your cargo directly to the custom office side of the window to store it there.
Would be not to much work to add it for read out to UI Science & Industry /Planetary. Since each planet can only be fitted by one POCO anyway and any POCO is definably assinget to the specific planet, If possible with the current tax rate, to enhance player experience. Of course GÇ£onceGÇ¥ there is a new one, it should display the present Corp/alliance name since they are transferable.
Also, if I get no result on the UI, I would know the CO was eradicated in Orbit of planets where I hold a PI installations. It would be a sort of the promised convenience to the hustle coming.
May it will be possible on EveHQ but I rather would prefer to have it IG.
On a rather urgent matter: Will material presently stored in CO hangar be transferred to the custom office GÇ£storage sideGÇ¥ past Nov28 and be freely accessible as tax already was being paid? Of course provide the Interbus CO is still live. |
Ariane VoxDei
20
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 20:42:00 -
[47] - Quote
tengen san wrote:I give it a month till all low sec Interbus COGÇÖs are blown out of the water for target practice and market strategic reasons. Much sooner than that, unless the planet it complete crap. The reason being, who is going to come to their defense.
Remember, no notification, no setting reinforce timer on it. etc, you'd have to watch over it 23/7.
|
Ariane VoxDei
20
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 20:56:00 -
[48] - Quote
tengen san wrote:You see there are a deep strategic value to GÇ£poffGÇ¥ a POCO once the eyes of market gouger fall on it.
The 100mil is just the build price for the BPC holder. The market price will be +100%, 200mil x 5 to cover a P1-P4 production is a substantial investment to put on line never to see its amortization. At least someone gets it. Sov-null suddenly has a big opening to leverage the protection they have. Unprotected space (low and WH) will take it in the butt over this. Given the massive economic impact it potentially has, it would easily pay to hire people to do the denial gruntwork. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
391
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 05:45:00 -
[49] - Quote
W-space will generally be fine (due to basic mechanics of how w-holes work), and the deeper inside the rabbit hole you go, probably the better. Most of the w-space folks that I know are a very adaptive breed. They'll either figure out some way to protect the existing Interbus COs or draw up plans to have a few POCOs ready to go in case the Interbus COs get blown up or they decide that it's time to get rid of the NPC tax man.
Lo-sec COs / POCOs - I don't see them lasting long. Not unless all of null-sec goes to war and keeps everyone occupied for the next 3-9 months. |
Shana Matika
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 09:46:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ariane VoxDei wrote:tengen san wrote:You see there are a deep strategic value to GÇ£poffGÇ¥ a POCO once the eyes of market gouger fall on it.
The 100mil is just the build price for the BPC holder. The market price will be +100%, 200mil x 5 to cover a P1-P4 production is a substantial investment to put on line never to see its amortization. At least someone gets it. Sov-null suddenly has a big opening to leverage the protection they have. Unprotected space (low and WH) will take it in the butt over this. Given the massive economic impact it potentially has, it would easily pay to hire people to do the denial gruntwork.
Maybe that's the main issue.
OK. CCP want 0.0 more self sustainable and even more "free" - How about:
Highsec: Concord - like introduced - Untargetable Lowsec: Interbus - like actual system (fees of actual level) - when attacked an Interbus fleet shows up and kicks the Sh** out of em *gr - or just untargetable Nullsec: Player owned - player driven - can get shoot - sov space provides some form of protection by design (maybe an HP increase with Industry-Level and connection to industry level gain of system?).
Oh an no, I don't compare the time for oneshooting a noobfrig and a gang shooting 30min on a static structure - but it has somehow the same effort: Press F1 and wait. You don't get anything for that but you do it cause you can do it... |
|
whaynethepain
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 10:21:00 -
[51] - Quote
On a side note, I imagine many people will get mails with my name on as I shoot every single POCO I pass by.
I think CCP is holding profits back to keep the market stable during the POCO hand over.
But yea, I would want to tax hostile's off my planets. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
161
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 10:22:00 -
[52] - Quote
Omen,
Highsec taxes on Sisi for P0 and P1 are still at absurd values that bear no relationship to your devblogs. Instead of being double the TQ values, they are 10x current tax for P0, and 11%-26% for P1. See bug report #118790, still unfiltered.
If this is intended, I'd love to hear your reasoning.
Also, funnily enough, someone deleted the highsec customs office I was using to test, while leaving all the others untouched. |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 10:28:00 -
[53] - Quote
whaynethepain wrote:On a side note, I imagine many people will get mails with my name on as I shoot every single POCO I pass by.
I think CCP is holding profits back to keep the market stable during the POCO hand over.
But yea, I would want to tax hostile's off my planets.
Can't you just deny people access if they are under a certain standing with the owning corp? Thought I saw that on a dev blog somewhere, or was that something about how the taxing thing worked? I can't remember.
Either way, given the option of allowing hostiles to make ISK from my investment or totally denying them access to making profit, I know which I would choose.
EDIT:
Also Jack Dent: Sorry about your CO you where testing with, I needed something to wash down all the tears from people crying about how their low sec planets are now going to be nonviable for them cos of evil taxes. It was delicious. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
161
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 10:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
Alisarina wrote: Can't you just deny people access if they are under a certain standing with the owning corp? Thought I saw that on a dev blog somewhere, or was that something about how the taxing thing worked? I can't remember.
Yes, you can set both different rates for different standings, or a minimum standing to access it.
Quote:Either way, given the option of allowing hostiles to make ISK from my investment or totally denying them access to making profit, I know which I would choose. Personally, I'd just crank their taxes up as high as possible, but I'm subtle like that.
Quote:Also Jack Dent: Sorry about your CO you where testing with, I needed something to wash down all the tears from people crying about how their low sec planets are now going to be nonviable for them cos of evil taxes. It was delicious. What evil taxes? I think you misunderstood, the current sisi taxes are ridiculously low. To the point where, at 100% tax, you need 20 years to pay for a POCO with a single P1 extraction colony.
I was looking forward to putting up a few POCOs in my lowsec area to farm PI taxes. But with the current rates, I don't see anyone doing that. |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 11:18:00 -
[55] - Quote
Not having dabled with Sisi I was unaware of the low taxes currently in place there atm. I was under the impression it would be changed or something when it came live on TQ. That's assumptions for you...almost always wrong :( |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
391
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 13:05:00 -
[56] - Quote
Last time I had a chance to look at these was Nov 18th: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=382233#post382233
Quote:More detailed singularity test server data from this morning, using a hi-sec CO set to a 10% tariff:
P0 - Everything was 0.50 ISK/u for import.
P1 - All 0.05 ISK/u for import except for:
Oxygen - 0.10 import Water - 0.10 import
P2 - all 9.00 ISK/u for import
P3 - all 600 ISK/u for import
P4 - all 50k ISK/u for import.
Are the above values still holding true on Sisi?
No word from the devs other then "our economist is going to look at it". The ratios between the tariffs bear no relationship to the underlying math of how the tiers relate to each other. When I looked at things on Sisi, the ratios between the tiers for the tariffs was as follows:
P0:P1 = 1:10 (absurdly low, even worse then TQ) P0:P2 = 18:1 P0:P3 = 1200:1 P0:P4 = 100000:1
When you look at what is required to make (in units) the different tiers, the tariff rates need to be roughly along the same lines or you get really weird things like the existing P1/P2 tariffs.
P0:P1 ratio is 150:1 P1:P2 ratio is 16:1 (P0:P2 is 2400:1) P2:P3 ratio is between 6.67:1 and 10:1, I tend to just split the diff and go with 8.5:1 (P0:P3 would be 20400:1) P3:P4 ratio varies but is either 12:1 plus a bit of P1, or 18:1, so call it 15:1 (P0:P4 ratio of 306000)
Which - assuming that CCP wants us to pay 100k per P4 exported, gives the following tariffs for hi-sec:
P0: 0.3268 P1: 49 P2: 784 P3: 6667 P4: 100k
Or, if you agree that higher tiers should pay slightly lower tariffs as a reward for doing multi-step on a single planet, then you could adjust those ratios downward at each step by 7%.
P0:P1 = 140:1 P0:P2 = 2100:1 P0:P3 = 16800:1 P0:P4 = 235200:1
P0: 0.4252 P1: 59.50 P2: 893 P3: 7143 P4: 100k |
tengen san
Triton-TC
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 15:42:00 -
[57] - Quote
Shana Matika wrote:
Lowsec: Interbus - like actual system (fees of actual level) - when attacked an Interbus fleet shows up and kicks the Sh** out of em *gr - or just untargetable
Making Low sec. as secure as high sec wonGÇÖt cure the problem.
High sec = as intended Low sec = POC holding corps canGÇÖt refuse to take or deny customers, so consequently eliminate any standing prerequisite for low sec. This at least would gain a theoretical interest to use the POC by any others than members of the holding corp to add anticipate tax income, theoretically of course. If a corporation set up in low sec (what I truly do not believe) they focus mainly for their own PI production, so any tax issue is irrelevant anyway as charging no tax gives your own products an price advantage on the market.
For 0.0.; Of course you want to keep your foes off your lawn. So implementation as intended, zero tax for corp members and renters receive an GÇ£out of system GÇ£taxation, probably % share of the product to keep prices in balance. Problem solved for 0.0.!
But it wonGÇÖt work as intended anyway!
Still any tax income is just theoretical but bears no practical relevance as even lucrative Planets in 0.1. /0.2.wonGÇÖt attract more than 5 foreign installations. For now even less, as none of the GÇ£publicGÇ¥ users ever can be sure to use them in a productive sense in the long term.
WH holders will go into PI big time (zero tax) if the earnings bear any merits what is to be expect once the prices go to spike.
So again, no matter which taxation you imply it a.) never will pay off the investment as.) no one will set up a PI installation and willing to pay the requested tax on his export to a foreign corporation while his sales price (based on the higher export tax) is heavily under bided by corporations with zero taxation on their export.
It certainly was a nice idea to hand the COGÇÖs over in players hands. But unfortunately it will not work out as intended.
Weather you scrap the tax, or make them defendable, otherwise they will lose any and all attraction in low sec. |
tengen san
Triton-TC
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 16:13:00 -
[58] - Quote
tengen san wrote:Shana Matika wrote:
Lowsec: Interbus - like actual system (fees of actual level) - when attacked an Interbus fleet shows up and kicks the Sh** out of em *gr - or just untargetable
Making Low sec. as secure as high sec wonGÇÖt cure the problem. High sec = as intended Low sec = POC holding corps canGÇÖt refuse to take or deny customers, so consequently eliminate any standing prerequisite for low sec. This at least would gain a theoretical interest to use the POC by any others than members of the holding corp to add anticipate tax income, theoretically of course. If a corporation set up in low sec (what I truly do not believe) they focus mainly for their own PI production, so any tax issue is irrelevant anyway as charging no tax gives your own products an price advantage on the market. For 0.0.; Of course you want to keep your foes off your lawn. So implementation as intended, zero tax for corp members and renters receive an GÇ£out of system GÇ£taxation, probably % share of the product to keep prices in balance. Problem solved for 0.0.! But it wonGÇÖt work as intended anyway! Still any tax income is just theoretical but bears no practical relevance as even lucrative Planets in 0.1. /0.2.wonGÇÖt attract more than 5 foreign installations. For now even less, as none of the GÇ£publicGÇ¥ users ever can be sure to use them in a productive sense in the long term. WH holders will go into PI big time (zero tax) if the earnings bear any merits what is to be expect once the prices go to spike. So again, no matter which taxation you imply it a.) never will pay off the investment as b.) no one will set up a PI installation and willing to pay the requested tax on his export to a foreign corporation while his sales price (based on the higher export tax) is heavily under bided by corporations with zero taxation on their export. It certainly was a nice idea to hand the COGÇÖs over in players hands. But unfortunately it will not work out as intended. Weather you scrap the tax, or make them defendable, otherwise they will lose any and all attraction in low sec.
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
162
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 16:27:00 -
[59] - Quote
tengen san wrote: High sec = as intended Low sec = POC holding corps canGÇÖt refuse to take or deny customers, so consequently eliminate any standing prerequisite for low sec. This at least would gain a theoretical interest to use the POC by any others than members of the holding corp to add anticipate tax income, theoretically of course. If a corporation set up in low sec (what I truly do not believe) they focus mainly for their own PI production, so any tax issue is irrelevant anyway as charging no tax gives your own products an price advantage on the market.
Those POCOs are not free. Even if you anchor them yourself, set tax to 0%, you will have to recoup the investment through higher prices.
Quote:For 0.0.; Of course you want to keep your foes off your lawn. So implementation as intended, zero tax for corp members and renters receive an GÇ£out of system GÇ£taxation, probably % share of the product to keep prices in balance. Problem solved for 0.0.! Heh, 0% tax for corp members in 0.0? Have you checked what's the (bounty) tax rate of 0.0 corps? The corp needs some way to pay for those POCOs, plus all the other expenses.
Quote:Still any tax income is just theoretical but bears no practical relevance as even lucrative Planets in 0.1. /0.2.wonGÇÖt attract more than 5 foreign installations. For now even less, as none of the GÇ£publicGÇ¥ users ever can be sure to use them in a productive sense in the long term. At current tax rates, yes. With reasonable tax rates (closer to market value), just a handful of neutral users would be enough to repay the POCO in a couple months.
|
tengen san
Triton-TC
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 17:42:00 -
[60] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote: Those POCOs are not free. Even if you anchor them yourself, set tax to 0%, you will have to recoup the investment through higher prices.
POCO's are corp asset, once the ROI is completed there is no reason for taxation if you price adjustments will gives you market advantage. Higher prices will be a general outcome. After reiciving the ROI itGÇÖs all about who can beat the market price. YouGÇÖre out of competition against anyone selling on a 0 tax scheme.
Jack Dant wrote: Heh, 0% tax for corp members in 0.0? Have you checked what's the (bounty) tax rate of 0.0 corps? The corp needs some way to pay for those POCOs, plus all the other expenses.
So corpmembers are included in the GÇ£internal tax systemGÇ¥. Taking from renters and so it be, also from corp members X% of the production in goods as an internal tax system places you in a market advantage over anyone who need to add the tax on the sales price.
Jack Dent wrote:Quote:Still any tax income is just theoretical but bears no practical relevance as even lucrative Planets in 0.1. /0.2.wonGÇÖt attract more than 5 foreign installations. For now even less, as none of the GÇ£publicGÇ¥ users ever can be sure to use them in a productive sense in the long term. At current tax rates, yes. With reasonable tax rates (closer to market value), just a handful of neutral users would be enough to repay the POCO in a couple months.
Would you give assurance to the neutral customer to set up a new POCO within the couple monthGÇÖs period once it was taken down defenseless? Are you willing to repeat the effort continually no matter the cost? (Further infestment)
How do you intent to hold your "tax cows" on the planet. Are you able to come up with the resources to assure uninterrupted production flow? (guarding and defending your POCO) Where is the point you decide to give in after Investment . /. Income drops heavily out of balance.
They hotdrop you and clear out a system within hours, getting rid of any competition. You will see MerchGÇÖs on 0.0. alliances payroll doing nothing but GÇ£poffGÇ¥ POCOGÇÖs in low. It will become a save source of income for them. You would be surprised on the financial capability of 0.0. alliances and willingnes to bring them in deployment if the make up their expens by gauging the market.
DonGÇÖt get me wrong here, I am convinced it could be a great feature and to be more constructive major changes need to applied, as it is now, it will simply not feasible within the game realities. The more I spend time on it, the more I come to the conclusion the CO change is nothing less, yet hidden so, but the major earning buff for 0.0. they ever have cried out for.
|
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
163
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 18:26:00 -
[61] - Quote
tengen san wrote:POCO's are corp asset, once the ROI is completed there is no reason for taxation if you price adjustments will gives you market advantage. Higher prices will be a general outcome. After reiciving the ROI itGÇÖs all about who can beat the market price. YouGÇÖre out of competition against anyone selling on a 0 tax scheme. What are your costs? PI is not manufacturing, you don't have input costs once you've paid back your setup. So by that theory, prices should be zero?
Quote:Would you give assurance to the neutral customer to set up a new POCO within the couple monthGÇÖs period once it was taken down defenseless? Are you willing to repeat the effort continually no matter the cost? (Further infestment)
How do you intent to hold your "tax cows" on the planet. Are you able to come up with the resources to assure uninterrupted production flow? (guarding and defending your POCO) Where is the point you decide to give in after Investment . /. Income drops heavily out of balance. Sure, there are no assurances, like pretty much anything else in EVE outside highsec. But what's the risk to them? The cost of setting up a PI installation is very small. If the situation changes, they can always switch to another planet. The POCO owner is taking the largest risk.
As I've said from the first devblog, POCOs are a boon to PVP corps. They are small enough to attract small gangs, which bring fun fights, while they don't have the logistics pain of towers. And at their price, they are cheaper than a bait battleship.
However, that's unrelated to their economic sense.
Quote:They hotdrop you and clear out a system within hours, getting rid of any competition. You will see MerchGÇÖs on 0.0. alliances payroll doing nothing but GÇ£poffGÇ¥ POCOGÇÖs in low. It will become a save source of income for them. You would be surprised on the financial capability of 0.0. alliances and willingnes to bring them in deployment if the make up their expens by gauging the market. You mean just blowing them up? To do that in a remotely efficient way, they'd have to split up forces. I, for one, would welcome the small fights. If they do it to anchor their own, it's easy to keep harassing them until they give up.
Anyway, the whole 0.0 alliance scarecrow is just a fantasy by people who have never experienced the boredom of shooting structures. If you go into alliance chat and say "Everyone fleet up, we are going to shoot down lowsec POCOs for the next 3 hours", you'll see half the alliance logoff. |
tengen san
Triton-TC
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 18:46:00 -
[62] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:tengen san wrote:POCO's are corp asset, once the ROI is completed there is no reason for taxation if you price adjustments will gives you market advantage. Higher prices will be a general outcome. After reiciving the ROI itGÇÖs all about who can beat the market price. YouGÇÖre out of competition against anyone selling on a 0 tax scheme. What are your costs? PI is not manufacturing, you don't have input costs once you've paid back your setup. So by that theory, prices should be zero? Quote:Would you give assurance to the neutral customer to set up a new POCO within the couple monthGÇÖs period once it was taken down defenseless? Are you willing to repeat the effort continually no matter the cost? (Further infestment)
How do you intent to hold your "tax cows" on the planet. Are you able to come up with the resources to assure uninterrupted production flow? (guarding and defending your POCO) Where is the point you decide to give in after Investment . /. Income drops heavily out of balance. Sure, there are no assurances, like pretty much anything else in EVE outside highsec. But what's the risk to them? The cost of setting up a PI installation is very small. If the situation changes, they can always switch to another planet. The POCO owner is taking the largest risk. As I've said from the first devblog, POCOs are a boon to PVP corps. They are small enough to attract small gangs, which bring fun fights, while they don't have the logistics pain of towers. And at their price, they are cheaper than a bait battleship. However, that's unrelated to their economic sense. Quote:They hotdrop you and clear out a system within hours, getting rid of any competition. You will see MerchGÇÖs on 0.0. alliances payroll doing nothing but GÇ£poffGÇ¥ POCOGÇÖs in low. It will become a save source of income for them. You would be surprised on the financial capability of 0.0. alliances and willingnes to bring them in deployment if the make up their expens by gauging the market. You mean just blowing them up? To do that in a remotely efficient way, they'd have to split up forces. I, for one, would welcome the small fights. If they do it to anchor their own, it's easy to keep harassing them until they give up. Anyway, the whole 0.0 alliance scarecrow is just a fantasy by people who have never experienced the boredom of shooting structures. If you go into alliance chat and say "Everyone fleet up, we are going to shoot down lowsec POCOs for the next 3 hours", you'll see half the alliance logoff.
Well than, good luck with it.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=402836#post402836
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
163
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 19:16:00 -
[63] - Quote
Heh. Sieged dreads away from station/pos? \o/
Each of those dreads is worth a dozen POCOs. Without a support fleet, they are easily killed by 10 battleships. You do the math. |
tengen san
Triton-TC
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 19:36:00 -
[64] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Heh. Sieged dreads away from station/pos? \o/ Each of those dreads is worth a dozen POCOs. Without a support fleet, they are easily killed by 10 battleships. You do the math.
Its not about the dreads, its about the change of CO's in player hands was intended to foster 0.0. income with low sec carring all the disadvantage.
From my math the risk/ reward ration in low sec is at 80/20 may be even 90/10. after 29. Nov Yea, I do have exclusive low sec PI running atm. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
163
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 19:42:00 -
[65] - Quote
tengen san wrote:Its not about the dreads, its about the change of CO's in player hands was intended to foster 0.0. income with low sec carring all the disadvantage. No, it was intended to create more player conflict, and the dreads are very much about conflict. |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 22:39:00 -
[66] - Quote
Errm, no-one has mentioned Wormholes. Surely now people will be blowing up these custom offices just for the hell of it? Jesus, you get a kill mail for it for christs sake. And what would be the point in spending loads of isk to replace them, when they'd still just be big floating targets for people to blow them up just for the hell of it?
And everywhere else, you're basicly putting the taxation into the only groups able to effectively hold them, big alliances. Everyone else is going to get screwed!! And lots of industry orintated people get alot of enjoyment out of managing their planets (such as me). Now they're going to have serious problems.
At the very least we should be able to build defences at them, make them slightly self-sufficent in looking after themselves.
I was really looking forward to this expansion. Now, i'm not at all! |
Shana Matika
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 08:45:00 -
[67] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:tengen san wrote:Its not about the dreads, its about the change of CO's in player hands was intended to foster 0.0. income with low sec carring all the disadvantage. No, it was intended to create more player conflict, and the dreads are very much about conflict.
Maybe that is the intention - but what Jack wrote is what happened.
Again: Conflicts are only possible as long as 2 or more Groups show up. I don't see this happen here. Group A will chose a time where they are most comfort with - which will be some time while Group B (CO Owner) is not arround and start shooting their CO just to kill their CO.
On a side Note:
tengen san wrote:
Making Low sec. as secure as high sec wonGÇÖt cure the problem.
High sec = as intended Low sec = POC holding corps canGÇÖt refuse to take or deny customers, so consequently eliminate any standing prerequisite for low sec. This at least would gain a theoretical interest to use the POC by any others than members of the holding corp to add anticipate tax income, theoretically of course. If a corporation set up in low sec (what I truly do not believe) they focus mainly for their own PI production, so any tax issue is irrelevant anyway as charging no tax gives your own products an price advantage on the market.
For 0.0.; Of course you want to keep your foes off your lawn. So implementation as intended, zero tax for corp members and renters receive an GÇ£out of system GÇ£taxation, probably % share of the product to keep prices in balance. Problem solved for 0.0.!
But it wonGÇÖt work as intended anyway!
Still any tax income is just theoretical but bears no practical relevance as even lucrative Planets in 0.1. /0.2.wonGÇÖt attract more than 5 foreign installations. For now even less, as none of the GÇ£publicGÇ¥ users ever can be sure to use them in a productive sense in the long term.
WH holders will go into PI big time (zero tax) if the earnings bear any merits what is to be expect once the prices go to spike.
So again, no matter which taxation you imply it a.) never will pay off the investment as.) no one will set up a PI installation and willing to pay the requested tax on his export to a foreign corporation while his sales price (based on the higher export tax) is heavily under bided by corporations with zero taxation on their export.
It certainly was a nice idea to hand the COGÇÖs over in players hands. But unfortunately it will not work out as intended.
Weather you scrap the tax, or make them defendable, otherwise they will lose any and all attraction in low sec.
While Lowsec should involve some risk a not-destructable CO in NPC hand won't do anything about the risk itself of warping to and away from there. The Interbus fleet is just a point that would be possible to turn the stick arround, or just untargetable CO :)
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
164
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 09:20:00 -
[68] - Quote
From the devblog thread, the wiki page listing the new base tax values is up:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
I'd say this changes things a lot. POCO income for P1 or P2 extraction planets is now 144mil/BIF or 3.2mil/AIF per month, at 10% taxes. On a busy planet, that should repay the office in a couple months. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
164
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 09:25:00 -
[69] - Quote
Shana Matika wrote:Again: Conflicts are only possible as long as 2 or more Groups show up. I don't see this happen here. Group A will chose a time where they are most comfort with - which will be some time while Group B (CO Owner) is not arround and start shooting their CO just to kill their CO. Slightly derailing thread, but anyway...
There's a reinforcement timer that ensures it comes at a time Group B is comfortable with. And, even if Group B doesn't come, the timer is visible system-wide for the 24+ hours the POCO is reinforced. This provides an excellent beacon to any PVP group in the area to come shoot at group A, group B, or both.
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
395
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 13:37:00 -
[70] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote: I'd say this changes things a lot. POCO income for P1 or P2 extraction planets is now 144mil/BIF or 3.2mil/AIF per month, at 10% taxes. On a busy planet, that should repay the office in a couple months.
Yes, the numbers seem a lot more sensible across the tiers.
(running numbers) Lo-sec PI harvest colonies, figure somewhere between 4-8 BIFs. 50 ISK/u export fee for P1 at 10%. A single BIF outputs 48 times a day, producing 20 units each time. Figure 30.5 days in a month.
1 BIF = 1,464,000/mo export tariffs at the 10% setting.
4 BIFs = 5,856,000/mo 6 BIFs = 8,784,000/mo 8 BIFs = 11,712,000/mo
Which indeed means that lo-sec POCOs for PI harvest planets might be economically viable now. Even if you charge a bit less then the standard 10%. As long as you have 10-12 extraction colonies on the surface of your planet, you can pay off the POCO in about 30-45 days.
Sov Null and W-Space residents would be smart to charge about 3-5% tariffs, which would help the corp coffers and help pay for the POCOs while still letting your residents have a cost advantage over the hi-sec folks who are paying 10% tariffs. |
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
395
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 13:41:00 -
[71] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:Errm, no-one has mentioned Wormholes. Surely now people will be blowing up these custom offices just for the hell of it? Jesus, you get a kill mail for it for christs sake. And what would be the point in spending loads of isk to replace them, when they'd still just be big floating targets for people to blow them up just for the hell of it?
In w-space, the attackers (unless *really* dedicated) will probably not stick around long enough to actually destroy a POCO (due to the reinforce timer). They will probably destroy any Interbus COs as those don't have timers.
(But as with most structures - the only way to keep a structure from being killed is to bring a fleet of defenders. The problem with structure-only defenses is that they are static and the attacker can easily plan out a fleet to neutralize/deal with the defensive modules.)
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
82
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 17:46:00 -
[72] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:From the devblog thread, the wiki page listing the new base tax values is up: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeI'd say this changes things a lot. POCO income for P1 or P2 extraction planets is now 144mil/BIF or 3.2mil/AIF per month, at 10% taxes. On a busy planet, that should repay the office in a couple months.
Excellent changes. This is the "first step" from my initial post -- a straight up rebalance of reference tax values. Hopefully they continue to change them in the future, as their market values float.
POCOs are now competitive with Interbus COs. I'm not sure which I'd prefer to have in my system. We'll see! |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 20:01:00 -
[73] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:From the devblog thread, the wiki page listing the new base tax values is up: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeI'd say this changes things a lot. POCO income for P1 or P2 extraction planets is now 144mil/BIF or 3.2mil/AIF per month, at 10% taxes. On a busy planet, that should repay the office in a couple months.
That does simplifies the taxes. However, I still see some lingering form of the old tax system (see info on command centers and launchpads) on sisi. I doubt those will change, as it looks like its rather needed. I should have this updated in my program shortly. PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them! |
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 21:26:00 -
[74] - Quote
Some things I haven't noticed in thread:
1. Concentration of PI resources is higher in null-sec than in low-sec. But cost of POCO is going to be the same. So POCO building in low-sec is going to be less profitable than in null-sec.
2. It seems that PI was designed current way as job for people unable to spend a lot of time in game, as some mean for them to do something and to not get left completely behind all other carebears. Doubt such people would be able to draft some fleet to protect their assets. At least it would be harder in anarchy low-secs than in sovereignty null-secs as you have to be part of some big alliance to work in null-sec, but can be alone in low-sec.
3. The absence of CONCORD/Navy is the only actual difference between high-sec and low-sec at the moment, meaning low-sec is free-pirating zone. There is no place for pirates in high-secs (as NPC law present) or null-secs (replaced there with alliance wars).
Introducing "aggressive marketing" in form of fleets of null-sec alliances roaming around low-sec to eliminate PI competition would destroy remains of profit from pirating (for those doing it for profit and not just for griefing) as null-sec alliances are better organized and equipped than low-sec ones and would wipe low-sec pirates clean.
4. Doubt pirates would care enough to build POCOs, but a lot of pirates would actually love to destroy everything because that's the only thing the most of them do. And low-sec carebears are now already at disadvantage: they have all cons of null-sec carebearing (danger), but not those profits/protection.
5. Low-sec POSes are now at least partially fueled using low-sec PI. Even now it might be pretty hard to find enough Noble Metals for all POSes, but with PI becoming less possible in low-secs, some POSes will have to be simply removed because of lack of local fuel and complexity of its transportation from other places.
As a result, such changes to PI would probably lead to even more people leaving low-secs for high- or null-secs and low-secs as game concept losing even more interest.
P.S. If CCP already talking about "replacing NPC with PC wherever it possible", why not remove NPC stations/sentries from low-sec as well and make low-secs just some part of null-sec battlefield with only difference of actions affecting your Security Standing? |
tengen san
Triton-TC
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 23:09:00 -
[75] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Jack Dant wrote:From the devblog thread, the wiki page listing the new base tax values is up: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeI'd say this changes things a lot. POCO income for P1 or P2 extraction planets is now 144mil/BIF or 3.2mil/AIF per month, at 10% taxes. On a busy planet, that should repay the office in a couple months. Excellent changes. This is the "first step" from my initial post -- a straight up rebalance of reference tax values. Hopefully they continue to change them in the future, as their market values float. POCOs are now competitive with Interbus COs. I'm not sure which I'd prefer to have in my system. We'll see!
Bravado! See you agian in 6 months. |
tengen san
Triton-TC
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 23:14:00 -
[76] - Quote
Exer Toralen wrote:
3. The absence of CONCORD/Navy is the only actual difference between high-sec and low-sec at the moment, meaning low-sec is free-pirating zone. There is no place for pirates in high-secs (as NPC law present) or null-secs (replaced there with alliance wars).
Ah......,what is the news now.... really! Beside history counts. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
84
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 02:28:00 -
[77] - Quote
To anyone reading my thread, I have no idea what this tengen san guy is talking about. After Interbus COs were announced he still seemed to think all lowsec/nullsec COs were disappearing on patch day (they are not). He also wanted lowsec COs to be 0% tax for whatever reason, and of course POCOs have had that option since they were first announced.
I am guessing he's just a highsec guy with a bunch of alts doing PI in lowsec who doesn't actually want lowsec groups to be able to exert some control over their home turf. Who knows! |
Kaaii
Kaaii-Net Research Labs KAAII-NET
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 09:42:00 -
[78] - Quote
I still haven't found in any of these threads how many runs the bpc has......
anyone know?
|
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
34
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 10:52:00 -
[79] - Quote
Kaaii wrote:
I still haven't found in any of these threads how many runs the bpc has......
anyone know?
Probably safe to assume 1, then be pleasantly surprised if it's more. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
86
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 17:20:00 -
[80] - Quote
On sisi they are 1-run BPCs. |
|
General Sauron
Saurian Industrial Corporation DSM FOUNDATION
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 01:55:00 -
[81] - Quote
My opinion is that POCOs in low sec arent going to work due to the fact that they are too easily blown up, are rather expensive, and are too difficult to defend.
I am not sure how other people are going to handle the problem, but my solution is to have all my low sec planets make P2 and then just use the Command Center to launch the P2 into space. That is assuming that there isnt an Interbus CO or POCO in place and also assuming the tax rate isnt obscene if a POCO is in place.
If figure that if I plan on picking up P2 twice a day for two days every week or two, I should be able to move 2000 m3 of goods and not need a POCO and the hassle associated with it. its a bit of a hassle with hauling, but no POCO needed is that advantage.
I may consider making P3 instead in order to keep the volume down even further. Of course, this depends on whether the hauling is too much of a PITA.
I think that this is going to be a rather common work around for low sec. null sec, and WH space. |
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
55
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 04:57:00 -
[82] - Quote
It will be interesting to see how all this plays out. Will lowsec entities be interested in doing PI and defending it? Right now lowsec PI is less profitable than nullsec (including wormholes), however is easily raidable by the large alliances. I think PI will shift more heavily to wormhole and nullsec space, and away from lowsec for the most part. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
87
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 06:29:00 -
[83] - Quote
Covert Kitty wrote:Right now lowsec PI is less profitable than nullsec (including wormholes), however is easily raidable by the large alliances.
Lowsec PI should be less profitable than nullsec or WH. That's by design. But easily raidable? POCOs have reinforcement timers, so large alliances would have to send fleets to the systems not once, but twice in order to kill a structure than gives us no significant benefit (compared to a tech moon), no great killmail, no loot, etc. Plus they have a lot of HP so to reinforce them you'd want to use capitals or a really, really big high DPS fleet. A large alliance like mine has absolutely zero interest in sending capitals many regions away to kill some meaningless POCOs in lowsec. Our fleets are busy doing fun stuff like fleet fights in nullsec instead of randomly shooting lowsec PI structures.
If COs are killed in lowsec they are mostly going to be killed by other lowsec residents: I suggest you defend your turf. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
121
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 13:41:00 -
[84] - Quote
pmchem wrote:.... or a really, really big high DPS fleet.
Tornado/Naga/Talos/Oracle...
fit for gank over tank... they will be an "easy" and "cheap" fleet that can throw out DPS like crazy.
I am becoming more and more convinced that CCP is doing things to start breaking up the "Great Wall of Carebear". |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
171
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 13:49:00 -
[85] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Tornado/Naga/Talos/Oracle...
fit for gank over tank... they will be an "easy" and "cheap" fleet that can throw out DPS like crazy. Yea, you just need 10-15 of these to reinforce or kill a POCO in 20 minutes.
On the other hand, that fleet can be countered by a well balanced t1 cruiser/destroyer/BC fleet. Fun fights.
Quote:I am becoming more and more convinced that CCP is doing things to start breaking up the "Great Wall of Carebear". I'm not sure what this means
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 18:02:00 -
[86] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Velicitia wrote:Tornado/Naga/Talos/Oracle...
fit for gank over tank... they will be an "easy" and "cheap" fleet that can throw out DPS like crazy. Yea, you just need 10-15 of these to reinforce or kill a POCO in 20 minutes. On the other hand, that fleet can be countered by a well balanced t1 cruiser/destroyer/BC fleet. Fun fights. Quote:I am becoming more and more convinced that CCP is doing things to start breaking up the "Great Wall of Carebear". I'm not sure what this means
a good post by Jack.
If you just bring a pure tier 3 BC fleet and start shooting a POCO you leave yourself open to attack. While doing a very boring and distracting activity. Opportunity for more fights (thought it's likely fights will happen at the reinforcement timer exit, which is one of the goals of POCO design!)
and yeah all the carebear tears, so frustrating, especially since POCOs only show up in lowsec and nullsec. Everything in lowsec/nullsec should be player driven and have risk. CCP protected carebears in crucible by removing insurance payouts for deaths to CONCORD, therefore giving additional protection to the hordes of missing running bots (currently the most popular form of botting) from suicide ganks. POCOs have nothing to do with carebear activities. |
tengen san
Triton-TC
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 20:13:00 -
[87] - Quote
pmchem wrote:To anyone reading my thread, I have no idea what this tengen san guy is talking about. After Interbus COs were announced he still seemed to think all lowsec/nullsec COs were disappearing on patch day (they are not). He also wanted lowsec COs to be 0% tax for whatever reason, and of course POCOs have had that option since they were first announced.
I am guessing he's just a highsec guy with a bunch of alts doing PI in lowsec who doesn't actually want lowsec groups to be able to exert some control over their home turf. Who knows!
Not a guess, a presumption, wrong just as your presumptions on D514.
Pre-warned = Pre-armed!
pmchem wrote: A large alliance like mine has absolutely zero interest in sending capitals many regions away to kill some meaningless POCOs in lowsec. Our fleets are busy doing fun stuff like fleet fights in nullsec instead of randomly shooting lowsec PI structures.
Lulling wonGÇÖt take fare. Problem, your alliance isnGÇÖt exactly well known for reliability ore trustworthiness. And who said they will or need to do the job themselves.
A. They hired out Mrechs on the Ice interdiction big time, just remember the advertisement. B. Your alliance will be the financial sponsor for the H5-unholy uninon , are any plans up yet to include POCOGÇÖs in the deal?
Once the hulkageddon is over I make the fair assumption a new playground need to be found.
You have singlehanded set the record for the POCO taxation straight, let it be there, but donGÇÖt give out assurances you cannot hold, they only will be judged as deception.
|
Velicitia
Open Designs
124
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 20:40:00 -
[88] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Velicitia wrote:Tornado/Naga/Talos/Oracle...
fit for gank over tank... they will be an "easy" and "cheap" fleet that can throw out DPS like crazy. Yea, you just need 10-15 of these to reinforce or kill a POCO in 20 minutes. On the other hand, that fleet can be countered by a well balanced t1 cruiser/destroyer/BC fleet. Fun fights. Quote:I am becoming more and more convinced that CCP is doing things to start breaking up the "Great Wall of Carebear". I'm not sure what this means
Yes, you're completely right with the first point in regards to they're stupid weak overall ... "Malcanis' Law" applies here, but essentially it gives nearly everyone the ability to do BS amounts of DPS without having a really expensive lossmail.
Think about it -- anyone running L3 missions has a pretty good set of skills for flying battlecruisers already (well, they should anyway). Train large guns up to level 3 or 4 (you were doing that anyway to get L4 missions, right?) and now you're a decent DPS platform and not getting "left out" of a fight because you can't fly a BS yet.
As for the great wall of carebear -- ask anyone in hisec about lowsec, and you'll pretty much get the same answer (don't go there, every gate has a gatecamp, you'll never get past that first jump). Now, obviously there are people who are so risk-averse that they will NEVER venture into lowsec, even with these new tools, but there are also the people who simply needed the right "incentives" if you will.
Let's say we have a gang of 5-7. We *could* fly BS, but we're better skilled with BC, and can more easily replace them.
Currently -- everyone has a BC, maybe one guy in a logi cruiser (T1)... Maybe someone in a BC has ganglinks and RR too. Crucible -- replace 3 of the tier 1/2 BCs with tier 3 (still have the logi cruiser, and a BC with ganglinks/RR).
In both instances, let's say we run into a gatecamp with 2x BS. Both instances we're likely to DIAF, but at least now with the tier3 BC, we have a fighting chance of taking one of them with us... |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
172
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 21:02:00 -
[89] - Quote
Oh, I get it now, I think we are on the same page.
POCOs are relatively low-cost (and low income), they can be killed with low-cost fleets, and so can be defended with low-cost fleets. This lowers the barrier of entry for "meaningful" PVP. Which is great.
There's one big obstacle that keeps highseccers out of lowsec PVP, tho. The sec status losses. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 23:26:00 -
[90] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote: There's one big obstacle that keeps highseccers out of lowsec PVP, tho. The sec status losses.
Ahhahahahahaha... No.
Hiseccers aren't in lowsec because they're neurotically risk-averse. If it were sec status, they'd be in FW. |
|
Hainnz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 08:48:00 -
[91] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: Ahhahahahahaha... No.
Hiseccers aren't in lowsec because they're neurotically risk-averse. If it were sec status, they'd be in FW.
Probably has more to do with many/most hi-sec players being soloers. It can be fun playing the rabbit in low-sec for a while though. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
173
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 09:17:00 -
[92] - Quote
I see a fair amount of highsec types playing "anti-pirate" in lowsec, and some that go GCC a few times, then dissapear for a while running missions until their sec is positive again.
For that same reason the GCC when shooting a POCO will discourage highsec corps/alliances from shooting pirate offices. |
Ulstan
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 17:32:00 -
[93] - Quote
I don't see big alliances rampaging through low sec specifically to kill POCO's. I'm sure they have much better things to do. POCO's take a long time to earn back their investment and are also vulnerable. They don't seem to me to be a particularly good way of earning ISK unless you are sure you can defend them easily.
The pirate corps that roam around in low sec will probably destroy a lot of POCO's (why not? They are already there) but I don't know if I see them or anyone else putting them back up once they are down.
POCO's really only work (they are a long term investment tool) if you already control the space they are in fairly well. There aren't a lot of groups doing this in low sec because low sec in general is not very profitable and POCO's by themselves are not going to change that. |
Ulstan
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 17:35:00 -
[94] - Quote
I don't see big alliances rampaging through low sec specifically to kill POCO's. I'm sure they have much better things to do. POCO's take a long time to earn back their investment and are also vulnerable. They don't seem to me to be a particularly good way of earning ISK unless you are sure you can defend them easily.
The pirate corps that roam around in low sec will probably destroy a lot of POCO's (why not? They are already there) but I don't know if I see them or anyone else putting them back up once they are down.
POCO's really only work (they are a long term investment tool) if you already control the space they are in fairly well. There aren't a lot of groups doing this in low sec because low sec in general is not very profitable and POCO's by themselves are not going to change that. |
Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 23:09:00 -
[95] - Quote
They won't be simple targets simply because I don't see people putting up POCO's in lowsec at all.
Lowsec PI will simply die out, similar to how everything else in lowsec simply doesn't exist: missions, mining, ratting, incursions and really anything that doesn't involve a Covert Ops cloak or feeling like a pro pirate when you gank an 3 month old guy in a Drake with your gang of 5 faction cruisers.
What will happen is WH corps will probably set up a few to fuel their PoS and make a bit extra on the side. Nulsec alliances will set a few up to keep their PoSes running. All the people doing ninja PI with 2/3 characters in WSpace or lowsec will just stop doing it or maybe more their operations to HiSec. It's just a complete illusion if anyone thinks people will setup POCOs for actual profit. Heck, I have never even SEEN a planet in lowsec that had more than 1 guy using it, let alone one worth putting a 100mil POCO on just to collect 2000 isk per day in tax. There's a LOT more stuff that you can do in lowsec that is less effort, earns more and is less risk. Why would someone with any form of sanity want to put up POCOs in lowsec?
Prices on PI mats will go up like crazy and as a result t2/t3 production will become more expensive as a result of increased tower fuel costs. Eventually people will stop using their towers and revert back to public slots until a new market equilibrium is reached.
POCO's in lowsec are an insanely stupid idea. Rocket fuel @ 20k in two weeks. Robotics hitting 100k before the end of the year. |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 23:15:00 -
[96] - Quote
Just to note your last point about people that use PoS's will stop and use public slots, your so very wrong. People will keep using their PoS's to do what they normally do. People have planned and gotten ready everything they need to for the boost in fuel costs and I would hope have made plans accordingly.
As a side note, this WILL increase the costs of setting up a new PoS however due to the PI mats going up and people wanting to still make a profit. Just something to keep in mind. |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 23:22:00 -
[97] - Quote
Can you import goods to a planet that doesn't have a custom office? I realise you can fire rockets into space from your command centers, but does with work the other way? |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
92
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 00:12:00 -
[98] - Quote
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:putting a 100mil POCO on just to collect 2000 isk per day in tax.
someone here is really really bad at math |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
60
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 00:27:00 -
[99] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:putting a 100mil POCO on just to collect 2000 isk per day in tax. someone here is really really bad at math
Someone Playing EVE is bad at math? Well, bend me over and call me a submissive, i believe I am shocked. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
130
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 00:50:00 -
[100] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:Can you import goods to a planet that doesn't have a custom office? I realise you can fire rockets into space from your command centers, but does with work the other way?
iirc, no |
|
Athereon
ANZAC ACADEMY
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 00:52:00 -
[101] - Quote
Xen Solarus wrote:Can you import goods to a planet that doesn't have a custom office? I realise you can fire rockets into space from your command centers, but does with work the other way?
No you can't. The only way to import goods is to use a customs office and a launchpad. If low sec planets loose their (PO)COs then they will not work as factory planets. People will probably use low sec planets to produce P1 or maybe P2 and then move that to hisec to produce P3 or P4. The higher tax rate plus transport costs will be added to the cost of the finished product resulting in a rise in PI prices and POS fuel blocks. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
410
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 03:38:00 -
[102] - Quote
Assuming that the low-sec P1 harvest colony produces about 4800 P1/day, you'll be paying 50 ISK/u if the POCO is set to 10% for a grand total of about 240k ISK/day in export tariffs.
Which is a lot more then "2000 ISK/day".
(You'd have to charge about 15% and have a dozen users to pay the POCO off within about a month.) |
Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 06:46:00 -
[103] - Quote
Hyperbole to create emphasis etc...
Yes, for 240k a day I'll set one up! O wait....
Heck even at 2 million a day it's way too much effort and risk involved for something that 10 bored BCs can reinforce if they feel like it. And that's before taking into consideration that any system/POCO that gets some sort of traffic will get camped sooner than later.
A lot of people don't do extraction PI because the 17-20mil per character slot you can usually average in lowsec is not enough for the risk and effort involved (effort here being clicking once a day or so). What makes you think people will go out of their way and invest 100mil into a destructible object that will earn them 240k a day? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 23:51:00 -
[104] - Quote
This thing is really made of fail. Tax rates are 100 times what devs stated they would be in high sec, while big alliances and WH corps get another isk faucet. T2 will skyrocket in the short term over this as POS are forced to shut down due to no longer being profitable. |
Amon Sono
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 23:52:00 -
[105] - Quote
While I applaud CCP for its continued innovation with the game I feel that POCO is a step backward for a goodly portion of the Eve comunity. I am a returning player that spent a long time away. Coming back to Eve i was delighted by the changes in PI. It reduced babysitting your colonies and put control of the process and what you get out of PI firmly into the hands of the player.
PI it seemed to me was never a big isk maker unless done in null sec, which is fine bigger risks and bigger rewards. Low sec was ok to do PI in if you have several characters coordinating efforts. Even then its something it was more something to do to pad the wallet rather then do as a main focus. High sec PI is not worth the time or effort. It is good to get your feet wet and learn the ropes, maybe experiment some but as a serious plan just not worth it.
The changes may make null sec PI more interesting but will ruin low sec for any non large corp. Small corps and independent players will not be able to compete. They will in time be completely squeezed out either by taxes or by having to launch materials rather then use the CO. The changes have also increased the babysitting needed for factory planets. Having to log in twice to keep your factories going is not a big deal. Having to do it five times a day now is a pain in the tush for little reward.
In conclusion the big boys once again get a boost while the little guy has a door closed in thier face. hmmmmm sounds familar I think I hear the sounds of drum circles and people yelling Occupy Jita |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 00:24:00 -
[106] - Quote
Didn't we Occupy Jita over the Nex? |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 03:16:00 -
[107] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:This thing is really made of fail. Tax rates are 100 times what devs stated they would be in high sec, while big alliances and WH corps get another isk faucet. T2 will skyrocket in the short term over this as POS are forced to shut down due to no longer being profitable.
I don't think you understand the concept of isk "faucets" and "sinks", at all. Total misuse. Nor do you seem to realize that the market just needs some time to reach a new equilibrium. Why would POS shut down, after all, if T2 is skyrocketing "in the short term"? None of what you post makes sense.
|
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 03:25:00 -
[108] - Quote
pmchem,
I think I love you But what am I so afraid of? I'm afraid that I'm not sure of a love there is no cure for I think I love you Isn't that what life is made of? Though it worries me to say that I never felt this way
I don't know what I'm up against I don't know what it's all about I got so much to think about Hey, hey, hey
I think I love you But what am I so afraid of? I'm afraid that I'm not sure of a love there is no cure for I think I love you, isn't that what life is made of? So it worries me to say, that I never felt this way I think I love you I think I love you I think I love you I think I love you |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 03:45:00 -
[109] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:This thing is really made of fail. Tax rates are 100 times what devs stated they would be in high sec, while big alliances and WH corps get another isk faucet. T2 will skyrocket in the short term over this as POS are forced to shut down due to no longer being profitable. I don't think you understand the concept of isk "faucets" and "sinks", at all. Total misuse. Nor do you seem to realize that the market just needs some time to reach a new equilibrium. Why would POS shut down, after all, if T2 is skyrocketing "in the short term"? None of what you post makes sense.
Read the dev blog, the taxes are set by CCP, but they're designed to fluctuate with the market. This effectively mean that there can be no equilibrium, because passing the cost along to the customer to maintain a profit margin simply guarantees that CCP will 'adjust' the 'base price' one way or another, depending on how bad things get.
And, yes, I do: An alliance, by it's nature, is better able to defend it's PI holdings then any corp. The only risk for them is the same risk that everything else in nullsec carries. Effectively, it increases their reward by eliminating any potential competition. This means that, for them, it would very much become a 'faucet'. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
102
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 03:53:00 -
[110] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: Read the dev blog, the taxes are set by CCP, but they're designed to fluctuate with the market.
Are you telling me to read the dev blog when referring to a change that CCP made, AFTER the last POCO dev blog, directly because of the original post of this very thread, written by me? The mind boggles. Nolo contendere.
Also you still don't understand faucets/sinks in terms of isk supply, search it or something. |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 04:07:00 -
[111] - Quote
pmchem wrote: Are you telling me to read the dev blog when referring to a change that CCP made, AFTER the last POCO dev blog, directly because of the original post of this very thread, written by me?
Yes, I am, because it's a key point you seem to have missed. If the tax is variable, there cannot be any point it reaches equilibrium. Thus this permanently destabilizes the market, because you never know at what point or on what grounds CCP will change it. |
Immaya
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 04:08:00 -
[112] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: And, yes, I do: An alliance, by it's nature, is better able to defend it's PI holdings then any corp.
i love it when people state that alliances can have POCO's with out issues because they can defend it, but if you loose 10billion isk worth of subcaps defending a POCO, ehh it's not that profitable :) it's probably not worth defending them on a large scale as much as a small scale, it costs a lot to keep it running in 0.0 (i dunno what this thread is about honestly i'm just posting) |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 04:10:00 -
[113] - Quote
Immaya wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote: And, yes, I do: An alliance, by it's nature, is better able to defend it's PI holdings then any corp.
i love it when people state that alliances can have POCO's with out issues because they can defend it, but if you loose 10billion isk worth of subcaps defending a POCO, ehh it's not that profitable :) it's probably not worth defending them on a large scale as much as a small scale, it costs a lot to keep it running in 0.0 (i dunno what this thread is about honestly i'm just posting)
If you lost 10b worth of subcaps, they're probably after more then just your POCOs.... |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
102
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 04:17:00 -
[114] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:[quote=pmchem] Yes, I am, because it's a key point you seem to have missed. If the tax is variable, there cannot be any point it reaches equilibrium.
Math. Next you'll be telling me a sum of an infinite series of positive numbers cannot converge to a finite value. Besides, CCP doesn't need to change it daily, weekly, or even monthly. There isn't continuous flotation of reference values. They're not magically varying numbers. |
Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 08:39:00 -
[115] - Quote
Amon Sono wrote:The changes may make null sec PI more interesting but will ruin low sec for any non large corp. Small corps and independent players will not be able to compete. They will in time be completely squeezed out either by taxes or by having to launch materials rather then use the CO. The changes have also increased the babysitting needed for factory planets. Having to log in twice to keep your factories going is not a big deal. Having to do it five times a day now is a pain in the tush for little reward.
Couldn't agree more. PI seemed to me to be an individual enjoyment, for those of us interesting in things other than explosions. Now it's going to be forced onto the grand alliance scale. They'll dominate it all soon enough, at the expense of the individual and small corps. Worse still, the new system will allow them to tax people not affiliated with their group at an even larger rate!
|
Nomad I
University of Caille Gallente Federation
21
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 09:07:00 -
[116] - Quote
POCO is a totaly fail. I predict prices for T2 higher than in 2006. It's hilarious. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
66
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 09:55:00 -
[117] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:[quote=pmchem] Yes, I am, because it's a key point you seem to have missed. If the tax is variable, there cannot be any point it reaches equilibrium. Math. Next you'll be telling me a sum of an infinite series of positive numbers cannot converge to a finite value. Besides, CCP doesn't need to change it daily, weekly, or even monthly. There isn't continuous flotation of reference values. They're not magically varying numbers.
.9999999...=1 (without rounding) Still pisses me off. I accept it as true because it is, but my mind doesn't do well with that type of infinity.
Unfortunately, this isn't an infinite series. This isn't really a series, as there's no way to procedurally generate the next number in the series. It's a set that changes at the whim of CCP.
That said, I doubt CCP will change it often (if Ever <.< >.> FW, etc) So equilibrium will be approached or reached, then CCP will change it and a new equilibrium will arise.
EDIT: Whoops, the infinite series thing was a crack at Cygnet, ignore my bit in the middle there. |
Ellin Einher
Galactic Express Intrepid Crossing
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 11:34:00 -
[118] - Quote
PI was never a gold mine, you can make more money with moon goo, and less hassle, I see way more risk in placing POCO's than moon mining activities, so they should actually look into a little tax there, a nice 17% of market price as an isk sink to keep everything running smoothly.
There are lots of small corps with <10 members geared totally towards manufacture/research, and they don't have the means to defend POCO's, they rely totally in deterrent systems as in well defended POS's.
Fuels for POS's have been raising since PI started, making it every month less of a profit (and taking a lot of risks), and this is the icing on the cake, dealing the last blow to the small corps back to hisec (unless they can cling into a good moon to kick down the fuel costs). |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 12:01:00 -
[119] - Quote
True PI was never a massive gold mine that is Tech moons, however PI can be done totally solo and could not be directly disrupted that much by other players (only direct way was over-mining and resource depletion, but that's a side effect, not a direct attack on you). The indirect way people could screw with your PI 'gold mine' was to intercept you en-rout to either the CO or to the trade hub/drop off point, which happened in low/null alot and in high sec if you where war decced...or had wayy too much crap stuffed into a hauler and making yourself a suicide gank target.
Now you could keep 1-2 accounts EASILY subbed with a half assed 3 character set up with PI prior to the expansion. I know I kept 3 accounts topped up with plex using only 3 characters doing PI, the other 6 where making my monthly profit to be rolled back into paying for PoS fuel, new BPO's and new business ventures. Sure you can make more doing incursions or null sec exploration or what have you, but the good thing with PI was it was pretty much a passive income that paid for your plex and only demanded 10-20 minutes of your day in return.
Now with the PI taxes you can still pay for your plex's ijn high sec but if you now want to attempt to be a PI 'Baron' and hold several planets you can in low/null and tax your peasants whatever you want.
Now industry based corps will suffer slightly due to this as they have no military back up to call on if their POCO is attacked, however most industry based corps have got large sums of ISK in the corp wallets that they could offer mercs to help in defence of the more important/lucrative planets/POCO's and in return set them to blue, no taxes and payment for their protective services if needed.
True it may not work out that way every time and the mercs may just want to shoot at both sides in the end, but you never know. You could come to a very good working relationship and able to hold a system or two of worth while planets with outside protection if your a small indi corp.
People just need to learn to think outside the box when it comes to POCO defense. Get worked out deals before hand, then destroy the interbus CO, put up your own and have the mercs on call if it gets reinforced. They always love blowing stuff up and nothing is better than people that don't expect it. |
Ellin Einher
Galactic Express Intrepid Crossing
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 12:15:00 -
[120] - Quote
Alisarina wrote:People just need to learn to think outside the box when it comes to POCO defense.
Give them some PG and let me plant a few static defenses, then I wont complain about anything in this expansion :). That way people that REALLY wants to take them down will still be able, and the people just messing around will have a harder time. |
|
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
25
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 12:38:00 -
[121] - Quote
Ellin Einher wrote:Alisarina wrote:People just need to learn to think outside the box when it comes to POCO defense. Give them some PG and let me plant a few static defenses, then I wont complain about anything in this expansion :). That way people that REALLY wants to take them down will still be able, and the people just messing around will have a harder time.
Of course if people want it dead it will die, just like anything in Eve. Even the best defended PoS will fall, even in null sec will go boom if people want it dead enough. POCO's are still VERY soft targets, even if you defend them, if they are wanted dead, they will die.
I agree, giving it some PG for guns it would be nice and make it more desirable to set up as it wouldn't be such a soft target. It would still be an easy target, but it may get soem fun KMs |
Amon Sono
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 12:56:00 -
[122] - Quote
Alisarina wrote:People just need to learn to think outside the box when it comes to POCO defense. Get worked out deals before hand, then destroy the interbus CO, put up your own and have the mercs on call if it gets reinforced. They always love blowing stuff up and nothing is better than people that don't expect it.
I don't think its a case of thinking outside the box. Funding mercs to defend POCO's would probably cost far more then the materials coming from the planet would be worth. Indy corps with extra isk in the wallet can probably find alot better ways to use that isk .
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Callduron
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 13:05:00 -
[123] - Quote
Amon Sono wrote:Alisarina wrote:People just need to learn to think outside the box when it comes to POCO defense. Get worked out deals before hand, then destroy the interbus CO, put up your own and have the mercs on call if it gets reinforced. They always love blowing stuff up and nothing is better than people that don't expect it. I don't think its a case of thinking outside the box. Funding mercs to defend POCO's would probably cost far more then the materials coming from the planet would be worth. Indy corps with extra isk in the wallet can probably find alot better ways to use that isk .
You only need them defended when they are reinforced. Just wait till you get the evemails, arrange a couple of hours worth of defence and a couple of reppers. There no need to pay mercs 24/7/365. |
Amon Sono
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 13:43:00 -
[124] - Quote
[/quote]
You only need them defended when they are reinforced. Just wait till you get the evemails, arrange a couple of hours worth of defence and a couple of reppers. There no need to pay mercs 24/7/365.[/quote]
Yes , I understand you don't need 24/7 defense. My point still stands however. The isk made off PI on a single low sec planet is not very much at all. Low and High sec PI is more a hobby then serious isk making venture. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 14:36:00 -
[125] - Quote
Last I priced mercs (that I considered reputable and able to put together a decent defense of something) it was a billion isk a day, rounded up to the nearest day. Tell me how the ability to not need them 24/7 impacts the cost? |
Tam Tran
LankTech Universal Paranoia Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 14:46:00 -
[126] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: I won't get into defense mode and try and defend the feature against all sorts of claims. I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income.
Well ya better start getting defensive about this 'feature' as it just another heavy handed attempt by CCP to get folks into the low/null sec PvP.
This KILLS the hi-sec ONLY corps who want PoS's for production/RP/whatever...now its low-sec/null PI where you will inevitability be engaged in PvP and have to defend of take over a POCO(s).
Please revise this change or explain how you CCP see this change IMPROVE gameplay for ALL and that it is simply not just a forcing PvP lowsec/null issue if you want a PoS that doesn't bankrupt you just exporting materials to keep your PoS running.
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
115
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 14:58:00 -
[127] - Quote
Tam Tran wrote:CCP Omen wrote: I won't get into defense mode and try and defend the feature against all sorts of claims. I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income. Well ya better start getting defensive about this 'feature' as it just another heavy handed attempt by CCP to get folks into the low/null sec PvP.This KILLS the hi-sec ONLY corps who want PoS's for production/RP/whatever...now its low-sec/null PI where you will inevitability be engaged in PvP and have to defend of take over a POCO(s). Please revise this change or explain how you CCP see this change IMPROVE gameplay for ALL and that it is simply not just a forcing PvP lowsec/null issue if you want a PoS that doesn't bankrupt you just exporting materials to keep your PoS running.
You quoted Omen, so I don't see why you're so confused. The tax change makes POCOs actually potentially useful and important, which encourages a long-standing Eve Online game design principle: highsec is lowest risk, lowest reward. Now highsec has unavoidable taxes, while lowsec is the land of opportunity and nullsec alliances get to do as they please with tax rates. POCOs and PI will now be catalysts for space battles, while remaining low effort passive income.
In the meantime, people running no-skill highsec alts that pay for their own PLEXes each month just getting PI goo from planets will have to wait a bit for the market value of PI goods to equilibrate to higher prices in order to get the same profits as before. While you wait for that I recommend acquainting yourself with "flying in space" -- maybe even in lowsec. I hear some fun new Tier 3 BCs were just introduced. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 15:20:00 -
[128] - Quote
pmchem wrote: You quoted Omen, so I don't see why you're so confused. The tax change makes POCOs actually potentially useful and important, which encourages a long-standing Eve Online game design principle: highsec is lowest risk, lowest reward. Now highsec has unavoidable taxes, while lowsec is the land of opportunity and nullsec alliances get to do as they please with tax rates. POCOs and PI will now be catalysts for space battles, while remaining low effort passive income.
In the meantime, people running no-skill highsec alts that pay for their own PLEXes each month just getting PI goo from planets will have to wait a bit for the market value of PI goods to equilibrate to higher prices in order to get the same profits as before. While you wait for that I recommend acquainting yourself with "flying in space" -- maybe even in lowsec. I hear some fun new Tier 3 BCs were just introduced.
Arrogance check
Dismissive attitude check
Misrepresenting what the GM said check
Lack of comprehension of affairs outside nullsec check.
Are you sure you're a goon? Because you just scored a 100% on the Band of Blowhards membership test....
Seriously, though, Omen fails to understand the repercussions of what he's talking about. Look at how many people have posted threads about this on the forum alone. You'd think that the bpcs were only sold for Aurum. The actual reaction is that high sec carebears hug highsec harder, because they perceive, just as Tam comments, that they're being forced into lowsec, something they do not want to do. So they strop producing PI items and go do something more profitable, such as mine ice or mission run.
In the mean time, lowsec continues to be a rarely used place.
The result is that T2 prices rise to 2006 levels because materials that are produced cost a fortune, and no one is using POS in high sec to manufacture items such as Tach Beam IIs, which I'm told will be in demand now.
The problem that Tam is pointing out is, that because Omen does not seem to understand, POCOs are NOT those things (other then alliance 0% tax) and probably will never be those things.
IF they're viable for small corps, then they no longer are worth space battles. Why? Because they would have to be cheap enough that one could be lost and be worth the lost profits to replace. The problem is that it would get laughed off, rather then be saved in a space battle. If they cost enough to be worth a space battle, then they would have to be profitable enough to justify the lost ships and or replacing the POCO.
However, for PI to be THAT profitable, T2 is going to have to increase in price like a ticket to a sold out concert, something that CCP has also insisted that they do not want.
So, there are a lot of mutually exclusive goals here. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 15:30:00 -
[129] - Quote
Towers are cheap and people seem to fight over those.
Maybe we're missing something! |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 15:30:00 -
[130] - Quote
Oh wait, its the resource people might be fighting over! Why didn't someone think of that before? |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 15:45:00 -
[131] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:Oh wait, its the resource people might be fighting over! Why didn't someone think of that before?
Because there are more then five types of moon and they don't all produce exactly the same things? What they're fighting over is a monopoly on that resource, something that POCOS also do not provide, as anyone can use any POCO, they just get charged.
Fighting for a POCO makes as much sense as fighting for a spot to mine veldspar. |
Amon Sono
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 15:58:00 -
[132] - Quote
" You quoted Omen, so I don't see why you're so confused. The tax change makes POCOs actually potentially useful and important, which encourages a long-standing Eve Online game design principle: highsec is lowest risk, lowest reward. Now highsec has unavoidable taxes, while lowsec is the land of opportunity and nullsec alliances get to do as they please with tax rates. POCOs and PI will now be catalysts for space battles, while remaining low effort passive income.
In the meantime, people running no-skill highsec alts that pay for their own PLEXes each month just getting PI goo from planets will have to wait a bit for the market value of PI goods to equilibrate to higher prices in order to get the same profits as before. While you wait for that I recommend acquainting yourself with "flying in space" -- maybe even in lowsec. I hear some fun new Tier 3 BCs were just introduced. "
Low sec will indeed be the land of opportunity , for large corps only. Small corps and independent players will not be able to compete with the changes. Yes the changes will be a catalyist for space battles between large corps and alliances. It will have the oppisite effect of whats intended as it will drive out all the small fry from low sec.
Low sec PI isn't a large isk maker. Done right you can pad your wallet but thats about it. Adding in the costs of POCO will wipe out what little is made. I have a pretty nice PI set up , the vast majority of which is in low sec. If I turned Eve into a second job I could probably afford a single plex per month. Low sec PI is a low effort passive income but one that doesn't generate large rewards. I think the new changes will make null sec PI alot more interesting but doesn't benefit low sec and makes high sec PI even more worthless then it is now. It will not draw people into PI it will kick people out of that aspect of eve further isolating a large segment of the comunity. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 22:10:00 -
[133] - Quote
Amon Sono wrote: Low sec will indeed be the land of opportunity , for large corps only. Small corps and independent players will not be able to compete with the changes. Yes the changes will be a catalyist for space battles between large corps and alliances. It will have the oppisite effect of whats intended as it will drive out all the small fry from low sec.
Low sec PI isn't a large isk maker. Done right you can pad your wallet but thats about it. Adding in the costs of POCO will wipe out what little is made. I have a pretty nice PI set up , the vast majority of which is in low sec. If I turned Eve into a second job I could probably afford a single plex per month.
Low sec PI is a low effort passive income but one that doesn't generate large rewards. I think the new changes will make null sec PI alot more interesting but doesn't benefit low sec and makes high sec PI even more worthless then it is now. It will not draw people into PI it will kick people out of that aspect of eve further isolating a large segment of the comunity.
This is the effect I foresee as well.
Regardless of your views on high low null WH risk/reward, the numbers are there, and they're not lying. This actually guts lowsec profits for non-alliance corps.
I want all of you who are saying 'Well, raise your prices.' to stop and think back a few years when the price of T2 was HIGHER THAN OFFICER GEAR because the only people that had easy access was the big alliances. I once traded a Deimos for a Guardian-Vexor.
I want you to stop and think about that. Because this is the sort of thing that created that market. Sure, guys from goonswarm will sit here and extol it's virtues.
Why?
Because for them it's a license to print isk.
People are screaming 'risk vs reward!' but what about 'player driven economy'? You know, where CCP doesn't directly manipulate the market? Because that is exactly what this is. It's artificially creating a shortfall to drive prices up, using a deliberately inflated value driven by speculation.
If you want to see where this leads, CCP, I suggest an examination of the current US real estate market. |
Turhan Bey
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 01:20:00 -
[134] - Quote
If they wanted more activity and conflict in lowsec, then this is certainly not the way to do it. Any large organization (corp or alliance) can now easily push out any small ones. The problem is, lowsec PI was one of the things bringing the small corps into lowsec in the first place. Now I know of a couple who are simply abandoning the idea, and several more who are going to "hang in there and see what happens" but are fully expecting to be shoved out eventually.
So it already means less overall traffic, and even fewer over time. It's one less reason for all those small corps to bring themselves and their haulers into lowsec to begin with. If you want more activity and more conflict, then give people more reason and incentive to travel there. (EDIT: And stay there.) |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
120
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 03:52:00 -
[135] - Quote
Turhan Bey wrote:If you want more activity and more conflict, then give people more reason and incentive to travel there. (EDIT: And stay there.)
Maybe if there was some sort of economic structure unavailable in highsec, which provided tangible isk benefits, and could be owned by people who stayed there and allied together to defend their turf, yet used by others if they so choose??? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
12
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 03:59:00 -
[136] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Turhan Bey wrote:If you want more activity and more conflict, then give people more reason and incentive to travel there. (EDIT: And stay there.) Maybe if there was some sort of economic structure unavailable in highsec, which provided tangible isk benefits, and could be owned by people who stayed there and allied together to defend their turf, yet used by others if they so choose???
LOL Yes, and it was called moving expensive ore belts out of high sec and into low sec to get miners to go there
Oh, and then there was something called POS, which were originally null/lowsec only
And then there was something called level 5 agents to try and get mission runners to go there.
and then we got rid of all the well paying high sec complexes to try and drive plex farmers out there.
Huh, I think I see a trend here. and...hmm... has not yet yielded the desired result.
You know what did get carebears out of high sec and into low and null? Jump Freighters. That worked. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
121
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 14:32:00 -
[137] - Quote
The PI alliance thread https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=39865&find=unread is the exact sort of player-driven, emergent, economic, non-highsec gameplay that the PI tax change helps create. Bravo. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:08:00 -
[138] - Quote
Yes, and you may notice the underwhelming response, and the fact they're already talking about moving it to WH space. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
187
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:10:00 -
[139] - Quote
I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).
I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.
Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:20:00 -
[140] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).
I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.
Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising. highsec tax is 10%, low/null is 17% with interbus |
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
187
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:22:00 -
[141] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:Jack Dant wrote:I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).
I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.
Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising. highsec tax is 10%, low/null is 17% with interbus Read again, I was talking about actual Player Owned COs in lowsec, not NPC ones.
|
Velicitia
Open Designs
141
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:24:00 -
[142] - Quote
and look a this, a goon not calling the empire dwellers pubbies for once ...
what else has CCP fixed in Crucible?
as for the underwhelming response, and the "hm, maybe W-space" responses ... that's neither here nor there. The fact is that SOMEONE is taking the initiative to do something rather than QQ. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:26:00 -
[143] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).
I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.
Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising.
That's more or less to be expected. PvP corps will see it as either bait or as source of income that they don't have to work for. I don't expect that to make up for the overall change in prices.
It's also nice to see CCP going around locking threads about this issue other then the one from a big alliance that the op is in favor of their changes. Damage control as usual, I see.
Velicitia wrote: as for the underwhelming response, and the "hm, maybe W-space" responses ... that's neither here nor there. The fact is that SOMEONE is taking the initiative to do something rather than QQ.
Already did take initiative and am making a killing on it. But I want it to stop. This is going to damage the game in the long term. Just like the old moon goo bug or back when T2 was only produced by people lucky or rich enough to own a BPO. It favors those that already have staggering fortunes and freezes out new players. It drives the market in directions no sane person should want it to go. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:48:00 -
[144] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Omega Flames wrote:Jack Dant wrote:I took a look around minmatar lowsec early. Most systems still have their full Interbus CO set. I didn't find any system where the Interbus COs had been destroyed and not replaced (didn't check planet count, but nothing stood out).
I found 5 systems with at least one POCOs. All were open to neutral use, most of them either at 10% tax or just below. Only one had a tax about highsec (15%). All of them seemed to belong to PVP corps.
Of course, it's just starting, but it looks promising. highsec tax is 10%, low/null is 17% with interbus Read again, I was talking about actual Player Owned COs in lowsec, not NPC ones. you read again. you said "Only one had a tax about highsec (15%)". Which is an incorrect statement as that is closer to the low/null sec tax not the highsec one. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
187
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:50:00 -
[145] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:you read again. you said "Only one had a tax about highsec (15%)". Which is an incorrect statement as that is closer to the low/null sec tax not the highsec one. Oh, ok. I meant the one POCO above highsec tax was at 15%, not that highsec tax was 15%. |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:14:00 -
[146] - Quote
It totally makes sense that PVP corps will be the ones setting up POCOs in lowsec that give access to neutrals. They are the only guys equipped to protect against the destruction of the POCO.
Myself and a few guys in my corp looked into this ourselves, however we came to the conclusion that people don't come to lowsec for the PI wealth (the best planets are in WH with HS statics, and in nullsec) and they won't come to place factory planets here (the additional profit doesn't outway the risk. Not yet at least).
Most lowsec planets will be extracted for POS fuels. This doesn't really give an adequate income to cover the100 mil POCO costs. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
mnybag1
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:26:00 -
[147] - Quote
Even if you are the only one using the planet, the POCOs are worth it. If you have 12 planets over two accounts making 10 p2 per hour per planet, then you within 5 months the POCOs will have paid for themselves in the amount you save in taxes. Those claiming they will get blown up, if you are the only one using those planets, then chances are its a pretty dead system in general. Furthermore, the prices have already almost doubled so even PI in high sec is profitable again.
Things change. I think this new feature has a chance of being alot of fun and opening doors to new types of players throughout New Eden. I really hope CCP do not listen to everyone complaining because the feature is working exactly as intended. Once the market calms down from everyone's "THE SKY IS FALLING" mentality, things will probably be more expensive, but they should be because of the indicies.
It all makes sense. Stop whining over spilt isk. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:43:00 -
[148] - Quote
mnybag1 wrote:Furthermore, the prices have already almost doubled so even PI in high sec is profitable again. You need to visit your local eye doctor cause only P0 have gone up on average and only by 0.04 isk p/u. The rest have actually gone down on average not up. |
mnybag1
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:00:00 -
[149] - Quote
A week or two ago, before people really started worrying about the POS fuel blocks, Coolant was going for about 8-9 K a unit. Now it is upwards of 20k a unit on average. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:10:00 -
[150] - Quote
mnybag1 wrote:A week or two ago, before people really started worrying about the POS fuel blocks, Coolant was going for about 8-9 K a unit. Now it is upwards of 20k a unit on average. idk where you live but coolant sell price in jita is 12k this very second |
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
420
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:35:00 -
[151] - Quote
Note that some people are playing with the markets, buying up low-priced stuff and re-listing at a much higher price. You know, the same thing that happens every time something changes in EVE.
Coolant: about 12k as of a few hours ago http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?step=Show&type_id=9832®ion_id=10000002&type=sell
Oxygen: http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?step=Show&type_id=3683®ion_id=10000002&type=sell This is being manipulated in multiple trade hubs. Which is why there are only 3 sell orders in Jita.
Mech Parts: 14k (bit high at the moment) http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?step=Show&type_id=3689®ion_id=10000002&type=sell
Enriched Uranium: 15k (also a bit high at the moment) http://eve-marketdata.com/price_check.php?step=Show&type_id=44®ion_id=10000002&type=sell
Those P2s selling at 14-15k? Those are about 20-30% profit margins, even if you bought the inputs. (Naturally, you'll want to verify your math.)
Remember - PI is still a very low-skill required trade with very low barrier of entry. It only takes 3-4 days to train up for CCU4, IPC4 and Planetology 3. Spend about 6.5M ISK on setting up a PI harvest colony, which then outputs anywhere from 2400-3600 units of P1 per day (in hi-sec, 24h cycles, for most things). Even with the 50 ISK/u tariff in hi-sec, you can easily make a decent amount of ISK/day for a new player.
400 ISK/u market = 350 ISK/u net after paying export tax = 3000 units/day @ 350 = 1.05M ISK/day in profit 500 ISK/u market = 1.35M/day 600 ISK/u market = 1.65M/day
Last summer, people were willing to do hi-sec PI harvest planets that were only making 500k-750k per day. Now those same harvest planets are making 2x that. |
Omega Flames
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:50:00 -
[152] - Quote
Ya but last summer we knew the prices would be going up as people got tired of clicking but even then the taxes were not eating into our profits like they are now. I know the prices are going to go up again but this time it's not cause of a player driven economy it's cause of a npc driven change. Even with the POCO's being added it's not actually helping cause they are created using PI products so as PI increases in price the cost of installing (and value of killmail) goes up making them even better of a target for the time to kill. What happens if PI products double in price? Well that means POCO's double in value too, which means a small pos hp item (except it can only be defended by active players coming to it's rescue and not by auto-firing guns of any sort) will be able to be killed for about a 250mil isk of a km. |
Amon Sono
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:46:00 -
[153] - Quote
mnybag1 wrote:Even if you are the only one using the planet, the POCOs are worth it. If you have 12 planets over two accounts making 10 p2 per hour per planet, then you within 5 months the POCOs will have paid for themselves in the amount you save in taxes. Those claiming they will get blown up, if you are the only one using those planets, then chances are its a pretty dead system in general. Furthermore, the prices have already almost doubled so even PI in high sec is profitable again.
Things change. I think this new feature has a chance of being alot of fun and opening doors to new types of players throughout New Eden. I really hope CCP do not listen to everyone complaining because the feature is working exactly as intended. Once the market calms down from everyone's "THE SKY IS FALLING" mentality, things will probably be more expensive, but they should be because of the indicies.
It all makes sense. Stop whining over spilt isk.
I respectivly disagree, the changes will effectively squeeze out small and independent players This is shutting doors rather then opening them. I think the changes will make null and wh PI more interesting but makes low and high sec PI less attractive. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
68
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:14:00 -
[154] - Quote
Amon Sono wrote:mnybag1 wrote:Even if you are the only one using the planet, the POCOs are worth it. If you have 12 planets over two accounts making 10 p2 per hour per planet, then you within 5 months the POCOs will have paid for themselves in the amount you save in taxes. Those claiming they will get blown up, if you are the only one using those planets, then chances are its a pretty dead system in general. Furthermore, the prices have already almost doubled so even PI in high sec is profitable again.
Things change. I think this new feature has a chance of being alot of fun and opening doors to new types of players throughout New Eden. I really hope CCP do not listen to everyone complaining because the feature is working exactly as intended. Once the market calms down from everyone's "THE SKY IS FALLING" mentality, things will probably be more expensive, but they should be because of the indicies.
It all makes sense. Stop whining over spilt isk. I respectivly disagree, the changes will effectively squeeze out small and independent players This is shutting doors rather then opening them. I think the changes will make null and wh PI more interesting but makes low and high sec PI less attractive.
So it's boosting the income of people who're willing to work together at the expense of the income of those who are not? Working as intended. |
Amon Sono
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:49:00 -
[155] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Amon Sono wrote:mnybag1 wrote:Even if you are the only one using the planet, the POCOs are worth it. If you have 12 planets over two accounts making 10 p2 per hour per planet, then you within 5 months the POCOs will have paid for themselves in the amount you save in taxes. Those claiming they will get blown up, if you are the only one using those planets, then chances are its a pretty dead system in general. Furthermore, the prices have already almost doubled so even PI in high sec is profitable again.
Things change. I think this new feature has a chance of being alot of fun and opening doors to new types of players throughout New Eden. I really hope CCP do not listen to everyone complaining because the feature is working exactly as intended. Once the market calms down from everyone's "THE SKY IS FALLING" mentality, things will probably be more expensive, but they should be because of the indicies.
It all makes sense. Stop whining over spilt isk. I respectivly disagree, the changes will effectively squeeze out small and independent players This is shutting doors rather then opening them. I think the changes will make null and wh PI more interesting but makes low and high sec PI less attractive. So it's boosting the income of people who're willing to work together at the expense of the income of those who are not? Working as intended.
If your implying that only large corps work together I think your way off base. Nor do I think its beneficial to the game to isolate members of your community from features of the game. The devs have implied that one of the reasons for this is to entice more players out of high sec. What will happen is the exact opposite becuase small corps and individual players simply can't compete |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:05:00 -
[156] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: So it's boosting the income of people who're willing to work together at the expense of the income of those who are not? Working as intended.
Not really. The stated goal of it was to be accessible to all players and encourage people to go to low sec. The actual result is that PI in lowsec declines and fewer people go there.
This is bad for pvp: fewer targets.
This is bad for industry: higher prices for basic commodities.
This is bad for new players: increased cost of entry.
The only people this is good for is big alliances, who get to undercut everyone else's prices and still turn a profit.
Effectively, it creates yet another monopoly for alliances and their pets. Unless you're willing to take a loss on the POCO and have 0% tarriff AND are either damn lucky or have some SERIOUS firepower, you will not be able to match alliance sale prices in the open market. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:08:00 -
[157] - Quote
Forum goofed double post. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
123
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:39:00 -
[158] - Quote
Velicitia wrote: and look a this, a goon not calling the empire dwellers pubbies for once ... what else has CCP fixed in Crucible? as for the underwhelming response, and the "hm, maybe W-space" responses ... that's neither here nor there. The fact is that SOMEONE is taking the initiative to do something rather than QQ.
Well, look at my posts where I lay out the case for higher PI reference tax values, the effect Interbus COs would have on POCO desirability, or basically any post of mine where I'm not trolling some hysterical whining pubbie like Cygnet L (thanks for continuing to bump my thread btw). I try to be logical, sincere, and thoughtful when seriously discussing game design. I get my trolling in elsewhere. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:21:00 -
[159] - Quote
pmchem wrote: Well, look at my posts where I lay out the case for higher PI reference tax values, the effect Interbus COs would have on POCO desirability, or basically any post of mine where I'm not trolling some hysterical whining pubbie like Cygnet L (thanks for continuing to bump my thread btw). I try to be logical, sincere, and thoughtful when seriously discussing game design. I get my trolling in elsewhere.
pmchem, you'll forgive if I take your posts as light fantasy rather then fact. The fact that your alliance has come out hard for this and seems to be the major party interested in it suggests that you've already been tipped off to how extreme the tax on PI would be and have sunk a sizable amount of isk into the gamble that it would pass unnoticed.
And, you know, I seem to recall, once upon a time, a very similar statement from another alliance...hmm... what was it... OH YES....
'I'm not trolling some hysterical whining by goons about our alleged relationship with T20.'
Oh, and before you brandish 'pubbie' at me, I seem to recall blowing by your alliances pathetic effort at a bubble bath a few weeks ago on a hot little profitable run in nullsec.
So, please, by all means, keep talking ****.
It's funny from an alliance that couldn't catch a 'pubbie' in their own space. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1757
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 04:49:00 -
[160] - Quote
we're all too rich from guidance systems to care buddy |
|
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:03:00 -
[161] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:[quote=pmchem]Oh, and before you brandish 'pubbie' at me, I seem to recall blowing by your alliances pathetic effort at a bubble bath a few weeks ago on a hot little profitable run in nullsec. Holy crap "bubble bath" is the most pubbie way to refer to a dictor camp that I've probably ever heard or will hear
Also if you're exporting p0s you probably cannot be trusted to dress yourself |
Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:26:00 -
[162] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:It's funny from an alliance that couldn't catch a 'pubbie' in their own space.
Was this in Deklein? Delve? Fountain? Fade? Cloud Ring? Pure Blind?
GSF owns 103 systems of Sov and 45 outposts among 6 regions. You should be more specific about which part of our empire you went jaunting through, so that we can fix this dangerous lapse in our security. |
Pherick Sjang
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:35:00 -
[163] - Quote
:effort: |
Akara Ito
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
45
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 12:19:00 -
[164] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: It's funny from an alliance that couldn't catch a 'pubbie' in their own space.
Why would we try to catch you ? I mean sure if somebody feels like hunting and comes for you, but I cant find the 30 Goons you killed on the KB so I assume you didnt do ****.
Goons always welcome tourists, just remember to check with our customs personel in EC- next time and we get you a better room.
|
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 12:39:00 -
[165] - Quote
is that room surprisingly coffin shaped? If so I want to book a weekend away there! Sounds grand. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:19:00 -
[166] - Quote
Ok, good, enough goons posted for the song to make sense now. Thank you.
|
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1759
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 16:31:00 -
[167] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:My profits suggest otherwise.
we already established you're horribly bad at math since you're exporting p0s soooooooooooooo its not like we're going to trust your math on your profits |
Krios Ahzek
Juvenis Iratus
202
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 16:51:00 -
[168] - Quote
Exporting p0s?
Why? You'd need a jump freighter and very little sense I live, I post, I slay. I am content. Alpha Flight --á an open-source initiative for newbies looking for PVP. Join channel ''Alpha Flight'' in game https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=40104 |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 17:44:00 -
[169] - Quote
Krios Ahzek wrote:Exporting p0s?
Why? You'd need a jump freighter and very little sense
I'm not, I might point out. I'm just not going to tell them what I did export. I like to keep my isk to myself. |
Ragneir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 17:58:00 -
[170] - Quote
I'm derpy the care bear. I like magical rainbows, peace and love.
O noes CCP has coded in something that nerfs my high sec income its time to complain!
I fully understand that I would have to group up with pvpers to maintain PI in low or null sec but that screws up with my fluffy vibes and that is a no go.
I could go into a WH but I could run into pirates! Even though WH pirates are not too common I don't want blood on my fur!
So my best resort is to complain about a mechanic that can't get along with my Fluffalicious gameplay. I refuse to adapt to new mechanics so only change low sec and 0.0! |
|
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 18:32:00 -
[171] - Quote
you are stupid..... ally with low sec pvpers hahahahaha
|
Ragneir
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 19:45:00 -
[172] - Quote
Fluf power!. That right it's stupid to pvp to maintain blues. I would never want to risk my ship in low sec. Sure I could join up with some pirate group and what not. That is just a dumb idea. Too much pew pew and work to maintain a dumb planet. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 21:46:00 -
[173] - Quote
Wow: stupid troll is stupid.
Again, since Ragnier apparently can't read at all, I'm making isk on this baby. I already have the low sec and nullsec contacts fueling my bank.
And I want it to stop. |
Yinzer Haverford
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 23:57:00 -
[174] - Quote
To get back to the topic at hand, there seem to be some core facts that most would probably agree with:
(a) The old taxes prior to the expansion were so low that they were effectively ignored by anyone doing High Sec PI.
(b) The new taxes are an enormous increase in relation to the old taxes, which is probably driving most of the complaining.
(c) Even if you ignore what the taxes used to be, the new taxes seem fairly high. If you are exporting from a production planet, importing to a factory planet, and then exporting finished goods off of the factory planet, you are going to pay so much in taxes that newer players will probably not have enough ISK lying around to get a profitable start in PI at all.
As a solution, I would suggest allowing skills and/or CONCORD standing to play a role in calculating tax rates when using High Sec COs. We already have the ability to reduce sales taxes through skills and reprocessing taxes by improving our standing with NPC corps. And with the POCOs, better standing also has the potential to reduce the PI taxes (depending on how the POCO is configured). If there was a way to reduce the tax burden one faces with High Sec PI -- instead of it being locked in for everyone at the same level -- the system would both conform to the rest of the game and eliminate most of the complaining.
Just an idea. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
22
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 00:03:00 -
[175] - Quote
Yinzer Haverford wrote:To get back to the topic at hand, there seem to be some core facts that most would probably agree with:
(a) The old taxes prior to the expansion were so low that they were effectively ignored by anyone doing High Sec PI.
(b) The new taxes are an enormous increase in relation to the old taxes, which is probably driving most of the complaining.
(c) Even if you ignore what the taxes used to be, the new taxes seem fairly high. If you are exporting from a production planet, importing to a factory planet, and then exporting finished goods off of the factory planet, you are going to pay so much in taxes that newer players will probably not have enough ISK lying around to get a profitable start in PI at all.
As a solution, I would suggest allowing skills and/or CONCORD standing to play a role in calculating tax rates when using High Sec COs. We already have the ability to reduce sales taxes through skills and reprocessing taxes by improving our standing with NPC corps. And with the POCOs, better standing also has the potential to reduce the PI taxes (depending on how the POCO is configured). If there was a way to reduce the tax burden one faces with High Sec PI -- instead of it being locked in for everyone at the same level -- the system would both conform to the rest of the game and eliminate most of the complaining.
Just an idea.
That's actually not a bad idea at all. I'd be fine with it if it was based off the actual market value of the item, say the moving price, so it's harder to manipulate.
I'm not opposed to any tax, just one as lopsidedly in favor of certain people as this one. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 00:21:00 -
[176] - Quote
Yinzer Haverford wrote: As a solution, I would suggest allowing skills and/or CONCORD standing to play a role in calculating tax rates when using High Sec COs. We already have the ability to reduce sales taxes through skills and reprocessing taxes by improving our standing with NPC corps.
Your solution is basically just to reduce taxes, because that's what the end result would be. Which would re-introduce the gameplay/design problems which taxes are fixing. POCOs are here to stay -- highsec is low risk and therefore should be low reward, as repeatedly stated by the devs. It's time to adjust. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
435
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 01:05:00 -
[177] - Quote
pmchem wrote: Your solution is basically just to reduce taxes, because that's what the end result would be. Which would re-introduce the gameplay/design problems which taxes are fixing. POCOs are here to stay -- highsec is low risk and therefore should be low reward, as repeatedly stated by the devs. It's time to adjust.
I think that would depend on how much it reduces the taxes. By 10% at level V? Probably not a big deal. A combination of skills + standing that cuts tariffs by 15%? Could be interesting, a reward for keeping high sec status. The skill would have to only apply to NPC-owned COs.
(We already have skills for trade that help reduce the amount of sales tax and broker fees. So it's not outside the spirit of the game. As long as it doesn't reduce the tariffs by more then 15% in total, I don't think it will make a huge impact.) |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 01:33:00 -
[178] - Quote
Why would it be necessary? Are you afraid it won't be priced to allow hisec to compete at some level? |
Yinzer Haverford
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 01:38:00 -
[179] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote: I think that would depend on how much it reduces the taxes. By 10% at level V? Probably not a big deal. A combination of skills + standing that cuts tariffs by 15%? Could be interesting, a reward for keeping high sec status. The skill would have to only apply to NPC-owned COs.
(We already have skills for trade that help reduce the amount of sales tax and broker fees. So it's not outside the spirit of the game. As long as it doesn't reduce the tariffs by more then 15% in total, I don't think it will make a huge impact.)
Exactly. Taxes should be generally higher in High Sec, and they should be substantially higher than they used to be before the expansion dropped. But if you give people some means of reducing this tax burden by training skills or building standing -- as we can already do with sales tax, broker fees, and refining taxes -- it would at least allow them to feel empowered to do something about it.
It wouldn't have to be a huge drop in the tax rate. I would personally favor something a bit stronger than a 15% reduction. Maybe 25%-30%. But the exact number isn't nearly as important as the overall concept.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 01:39:00 -
[180] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:[ I think that would depend on how much it reduces the taxes. By 10% at level V? Probably not a big deal. A combination of skills + standing that cuts tariffs by 15%? Could be interesting, a reward for keeping high sec status. The skill would have to only apply to NPC-owned COs.
(We already have skills for trade that help reduce the amount of sales tax and broker fees. So it's not outside the spirit of the game. As long as it doesn't reduce the tariffs by more then 15% in total, I don't think it will make a huge impact.)
I agree, this idea has merit. It's not the counterweight I would like to see against a Alliance dominated market, but allows players to work around it.
IIRC wasn't there talk of introducing Smuggling to the game? I think that would be an excellent way to introduce this, since it is, after all, getting around the revenue men.. or Concord, in this case... |
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 02:09:00 -
[181] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:pmchem wrote: Your solution is basically just to reduce taxes, because that's what the end result would be. Which would re-introduce the gameplay/design problems which taxes are fixing. POCOs are here to stay -- highsec is low risk and therefore should be low reward, as repeatedly stated by the devs. It's time to adjust.
I think that would depend on how much it reduces the taxes. By 10% at level V? Probably not a big deal. A combination of skills + standing that cuts tariffs by 15%? Could be interesting, a reward for keeping high sec status. The skill would have to only apply to NPC-owned COs.
High sec status the standard in highsec, not the exception. Having something like Caldari Faction standing at 9+ to get good Jita prices is a long, difficult grind which few traders finish. Having good sec status is comparatively trivial and commonplace -- even in nullsec, where pvp doesn't reduce sec status!
I'd preach patience, and revisit the taxes and game mechanic in a few months after the markets and producers have had time to adjust. I think people will be pleasantly surprised. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 02:39:00 -
[182] - Quote
pmchem wrote: High sec status the standard in highsec, not the exception. Having something like Caldari Faction standing at 9+ to get good Jita prices is a long, difficult grind which few traders finish. Having good sec status is comparatively trivial and commonplace -- even in nullsec, where pvp doesn't reduce sec status!
I'd preach patience, and revisit the taxes and game mechanic in a few months after the markets and producers have had time to adjust. I think people will be pleasantly surprised.
I'll be surprised if anyone is still in business.
More than one alliance has recently released information supporting claims against goonswarm and Mittani that the chairman used his foreknowledge of the upcoming expansion to position goonswarm in position to line it's pockets at the expense of other players via the new changes to PI.
How is this ethically different then previous abuses such as the T20 affair which mired the former Band of Brothers alliance in controversy?
Do you feel that goonswarms current flooding of the eve online forums with dismissive, even derisive and insulting, comments on any opposition to the new PI arrangement hurt or help your efforts to bring all of eve under the unified heel of goonswarm?
What's your position of the in-game deletion by CCP that several of your alliance mates have proposed should be done to characters belonging to rival alliances such as TEST who have dared raise questions about the legitimacy of Mittani's own admitted intent to profit heavily at the expense of players in low and high sec? Do you feel that such an exercise of influence with CCP would damage goonswarms claims of being a legitimate alliance?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Diametrix
Wavefront Industries
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 02:41:00 -
[183] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:pmchem wrote: Your solution is basically just to reduce taxes, because that's what the end result would be. Which would re-introduce the gameplay/design problems which taxes are fixing. POCOs are here to stay -- highsec is low risk and therefore should be low reward, as repeatedly stated by the devs. It's time to adjust.
I think that would depend on how much it reduces the taxes. By 10% at level V? Probably not a big deal. A combination of skills + standing that cuts tariffs by 15%? Could be interesting, a reward for keeping high sec status. The skill would have to only apply to NPC-owned COs. High sec status the standard in highsec, not the exception. Having something like Caldari Faction standing at 9+ to get good Jita prices is a long, difficult grind which few traders finish. Having good sec status is comparatively trivial and commonplace -- even in nullsec, where pvp doesn't reduce sec status! I'd preach patience, and revisit the taxes and game mechanic in a few months after the markets and producers have had time to adjust. I think people will be pleasantly surprised.
Hmm, something has changed the temperature in this thread. Given the above, combined with what seems to be a degree of civility from your friend Cygnett [her agreement w/ another poster on common ground], I would suggest there could be a compramise brewing.
We all agree that if we wait and whatch how the current changes actually effect the economy, game environment, etc. that we will have clearer information to act upon?
That, given the very limited exposure we have had, there may value added to the system by building its complexity further (with the intent to increase profit and enjoyment to those willing to pursue it) via skills or standings or other enhancements?
I'm presuming we still agree with some commonly referenced tenats like Risk vs Reward, MMOs = intended multiple player interactions, and The Customer is always Right. All of the customers.
Damn, if we could just get the Legislative branch to play internet spaceships!
|
Richmond Kings
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:05:00 -
[184] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:pmchem wrote: High sec status the standard in highsec, not the exception. Having something like Caldari Faction standing at 9+ to get good Jita prices is a long, difficult grind which few traders finish. Having good sec status is comparatively trivial and commonplace -- even in nullsec, where pvp doesn't reduce sec status!
I'd preach patience, and revisit the taxes and game mechanic in a few months after the markets and producers have had time to adjust. I think people will be pleasantly surprised.
I'll be surprised if anyone is still in business. More than one alliance has recently released information supporting claims against goonswarm and Mittani that the chairman used his foreknowledge of the upcoming expansion to position goonswarm in position to line it's pockets at the expense of other players via the new changes to PI. How is this ethically different then previous abuses such as the T20 affair which mired the former Band of Brothers alliance in controversy? Do you feel that goonswarms current flooding of the eve online forums with dismissive, even derisive and insulting, comments on any opposition to the new PI arrangement hurt or help your efforts to bring all of eve under the unified heel of goonswarm? What's your position of the in-game deletion by CCP that several of your alliance mates have proposed should be done to characters belonging to rival alliances such as TEST who have dared raise questions about the legitimacy of Mittani's own admitted intent to profit heavily at the expense of players in low and high sec? Do you feel that such an exercise of influence with CCP would damage goonswarms claims of being a legitimate alliance?
we're not a legitimate alliance because there are no goons
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:08:00 -
[185] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:More than one alliance has recently released information supporting claims against goonswarm and Mittani that the chairman used his foreknowledge of the upcoming expansion to position goonswarm in position to line it's pockets at the expense of other players via the new changes to PI.
So would you care to back that claim up? I bet you can't, since the actual explanation that we obsessively pore over public information (blue posts, patch notes, etc) so as to be well informed speculators.
But go ahead, keep making crazy, Bachmann-esque assertions. They entertain us. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:08:00 -
[186] - Quote
Diametrix wrote:
Hmm, something has changed the temperature in this thread. Given the above, combined with what seems to be a degree of civility from your friend Cygnett [her agreement w/ another poster on common ground], I would suggest there could be a compramise brewing.
We all agree that if we wait and whatch how the current changes actually effect the economy, game environment, etc. that we will have clearer information to act upon?
That, given the very limited exposure we have had, there may value added to the system by building its complexity further (with the intent to increase profit and enjoyment to those willing to pursue it) via skills or standings or other enhancements?
I'm presuming we still agree with some commonly referenced tenats like Risk vs Reward, MMOs = intended multiple player interactions, and The Customer is always Right. All of the customers.
Damn, if we could just get the Legislative branch to play internet spaceships!
I never said that I opposed all taxes, I just dislike the overbearing advantage that it gives goonswarm (and to a degree other alliances), with no possible way around it for players who are not like me, and can laugh off 200m isk losses.
It's unfair to the 50% of the in game population who live in high sec, according to CCP's numbers, and it harkens back too much to the bad old days for me to feel comfortable about it.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Richmond Kings
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:10:00 -
[187] - Quote
pmchem makes a thread to get ccp to change pi taxes and destroy it for all the highsec pubbies and they actually do it
he is literally a wizard |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:11:00 -
[188] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:I never said that I opposed all taxes, I just dislike the overbearing advantage that it gives goonswarm (and to a degree other alliances), with no possible way around it for players who are not like me, and can laugh off 200m isk losses.
It's unfair to the 50% of the in game population who live in high sec, according to CCP's numbers, and it harkens back too much to the bad old days for me to feel comfortable about it.
I see words in front of me but all I hear is "I can't make just as much money as people in 0.0 with absolutely zero risk " |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:12:00 -
[189] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: More than one alliance has recently released information supporting claims against goonswarm and Mittani that the chairman used his foreknowledge of the upcoming expansion to position goonswarm in position to line it's pockets at the expense of other players via the new changes to PI.
How is this ethically different then previous abuses such as the T20 affair which mired the former Band of Brothers alliance in controversy?
Do you feel that goonswarms current flooding of the eve online forums with dismissive, even derisive and insulting, comments on any opposition to the new PI arrangement hurt or help your efforts to bring all of eve under the unified heel of goonswarm?
What's your position of the in-game deletion by CCP that several of your alliance mates have proposed should be done to characters belonging to rival alliances such as TEST who have dared raise questions about the legitimacy of Mittani's own admitted intent to profit heavily at the expense of players in low and high sec? Do you feel that such an exercise of influence with CCP would damage goonswarms claims of being a legitimate alliance?
Your posting, hahaha ohgod. I had copied/pasted prior posts of yours just to give other goons a laugh but now I can't even tell if you're intentionally serving these up to me or just drunk or something.
Mittani foreknowledge of upcoming changes to PI? I did post this thread in public, weeks ago, and CCP replied in public they were looking at the feedback in it. Goons found out about the changes after I saw this post ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=415176#post415176 ) the day after Thanksgiving, and that post itself was referencing a different eveo post! Just, comedy. We found out the changes went in at the same time as everyone else, while people like you didn't show up to the discussion until pages of posts after the change went in. Also, please cite sources on that 'released information' thanks, haha.
I would be more dismissive and derisive in this post, but I feel you are attempting to get this thread locked for trolling. A shame. Please stick to economic analysis. Your posts contain nothing but Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt (FUD), because they're otherwise just comic relief. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:15:00 -
[190] - Quote
corestwo wrote:So would you care to back that claim up? I bet you can't, since the actual explanation that we obsessively pore over public information (blue posts, patch notes, etc) so as to be well informed speculators. But go ahead, keep making crazy, Bachmann-esque assertions. They entertain us.
Achem:
Extreme wrote:EOG intelligence knows for a fact that Goonswarm will remove all low-sec customs offices and replace it with their own Goon office. Plasma, Temperate & Barren planets (P3 and P4 materials)
Question is, did Mittens have "insider trader information" from his function in CSM?
I mean, was he able to plan this ahead due to his function as CSM which gave him a strategical headstart for Goonswarm?
How will CCP deal with CSM in the future preventing such disadvantages for everyone not with contacts in CSM?
Unfortunately, unless some dev let it slip someplace, the actual numbers were unavailable until after the patch, making it unclear the extent of the effect the taxes would have. If EoG's allegations are, in fact true, goonswarm would have had to have some idea of this in advance.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:16:00 -
[191] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:I never said that I opposed all taxes, I just dislike the overbearing advantage that it gives goonswarm (and to a degree other alliances), with no possible way around it for players who are not like me, and can laugh off 200m isk losses. Explain to me, and you can use small words if you think it'll help, why you think this is something that in a major way benefits goonswarm, and apparently just "to a degree" other alliances, and how there's "no way around it" for players who can't laugh off a measly 200m isk loss. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:18:00 -
[192] - Quote
POCOs and the fact that they would be destructible has been public knowledge for pretty much just as long as we (and I mean "we" as in "everyone in eve" here) have known about POCOs and given our recent interdiction of gallente ice, going out of our way to target certain planets and replace them with our own seems like a pretty obvious move.
Do you have any more hilarious reaching to do, or are you done making unfounded accusations?
And by the way, regarding the whole "insider information" thing? A CSM member took advantage of his inside information quite some time ago, back prior to the dyspro/prom nerf. They removed him from the CSM. Does that answer your questions about "What does CCP do about inside information abuse"? |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:22:00 -
[193] - Quote
so you have one post from a guy with incorrect and absurd intelligence (goons shooting all lowsec COs? really? think about that). that guy then asks if mittani knew in advance. this is your "information supporting claims" that "the chairman used his foreknowledge".
yeah seems real solid you should run with that straight to evenews24 |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:23:00 -
[194] - Quote
Well considering that evenews24 is the literal equivalent of fox news, they'd probably run with it themselves. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:24:00 -
[195] - Quote
quick someone summon riverini to the thread |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:25:00 -
[196] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: Explain to me, and you can use small words if you think it'll help, why you think this is something that in a major way benefits goonswarm, and apparently just "to a degree" other alliances, and how there's "no way around it" for players who can't laugh off a measly 200m isk loss.
Consider the volume of space goonswarm and it's associates currently control. Factor in the number of planets that this gives them near exclusive right to.
Now, compare this to the number of planets, per member, that other groups, such as carebears have access to, and the relative quality of those planets.
By setting the tax at 0 for blues, goonswarm can effectively dictate the price of PI materials, either by underselling on a massive scale, flooding the market to drive under competitors, while still making a profit, albiet a smaller one, and then once those competitors have been eliminated, raising the price to whatever you want.
Effectively, goons would always be able to undersell and make a profit, due to volume and absolute control of the chain of supply.
Even if you have friendly lowsec corps willing to give you 0%, you can't deal in the sort of quantities at the same prices, particularly since the bottleneck on PI infrastructure limiting how much could be harvested at once has been raised.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:27:00 -
[197] - Quote
haha we're too late, en24 just ran an article on the tax change: http://www.evenews24.com/2011/12/02/custom-office-taxes-taxes-have-gone-up-yes-please-stop-doing-pi/
even they think cygnet is wrong
Quote: So there has been a tremendous amount of complaining about the new tax scheme implemented by CCP with regards to Planetary Interaction and Custom Offices. To some extent I can understand it; nobody likes paying taxes. As an economist I can go on ad nauseam about deadweight loss, reduced output, higher prices and so forth that taxes engender, but IGÇÖll save you from that coma inducing boredom.
However, it does seem to me that there is a bit too much whining and crying from the masses over this. With the changes of crucible we have seen PI prices head sharply upwards. So much so, that the increase in taxes are vastly offset by the increase in prices.
Consider an operation that produces 300,000 noble, base, and heavy metals and 300,000 non-chiral structures. This is refined down to 2,000 units each of precious, reactive and toxic metals and chiral structures. These are exported from the mining planet and imported to the production planet to make robotics at a cost of 600,000 isk (400,000 for the export and 200,000 for the import, for simplicity assume the prior cost here was 1/20 of this, or 30,000 isk).
Now those 2,000 units are eventually turned into 75 robotics and exporting this costs 525,000 isk. Last time I looked at Jita prices, probably out of date, these were selling for 80,000/robotics. That translates into 6,000,000 in revenues. After taxes you make 10,350,000 -> 4,875,500 isk. Prior to Crucible and the run in PI prices, let say September, youGÇÖd get maybe 50,000/robotics with vastly lower taxes or around 4,875,500 -> 3,693,750 isk. In other words, the price increases as a result of Crucible has been, at least for now, a 32% increase in your PI profits. Sure it would be nice if taxes were merely a 10th of what they are at now. Yeah your returns would be even higher, but it isnGÇÖt nearly as bad as some are making it out to be.
So please quit PI if the tax issue sends you into a nerd rage. I for one thank you for reducing the supply on the market and helping to increase prices and drive up my profit margins. Will PI prices come back down? Maybe. With the higher prices some marginal POSGÇÖs might be torn down reducing demand. With the higher prices and the use of POCOs in null & low security and wormhole space, more people might enter in those areas thus increasing the supply. The long run impact though is not clear. It is an empirical question and I donGÇÖt think anyone out there has done the required analysis yet to figure out where the price will end up. So I plan on sitting back and enjoying the ride.
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:30:00 -
[198] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Lord Zim wrote: Explain to me, and you can use small words if you think it'll help, why you think this is something that in a major way benefits goonswarm, and apparently just "to a degree" other alliances, and how there's "no way around it" for players who can't laugh off a measly 200m isk loss.
Consider the volume of space goonswarm and it's associates currently control. Factor in the number of planets that this gives them near exclusive right to. Now, compare this to the number of planets, per member, that other groups, such as carebears have access to, and the relative quality of those planets. By setting the tax at 0 for blues, goonswarm can effectively dictate the price of PI materials, either by underselling on a massive scale, flooding the market to drive under competitors, while still making a profit, albiet a smaller one, and then once those competitors have been eliminated, raising the price to whatever you want. Effectively, goons would always be able to undersell and make a profit, due to volume and absolute control of the chain of supply. Even if you have friendly lowsec corps willing to give you 0%, you can't deal in the sort of quantities at the same prices, particularly since the bottleneck on PI infrastructure limiting how much could be harvested at once has been raised.
So what would you say if I told you that POS towers get a sov bonus that gives reduced fuel consumption and, obviously, only applies in 0.0? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:38:00 -
[199] - Quote
And tell me, again, what goonswarm makes a killing off of atm and dominates the market? Moon goo? Hmmm....
pcchem, btw: you might want to go back, he revised to profit numbers down.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:41:00 -
[200] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Consider the volume of space goonswarm and it's associates currently control. Factor in the number of planets that this gives them near exclusive right to.
Now, compare this to the number of planets, per member, that other groups, such as carebears have access to, and the relative quality of those planets. And how many systems and planets do we not control? What makes those planets radically better compared to the rest of 0.0? And how many players do we have, vs "the rest of the eve universe"?
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:By setting the tax at 0 for blues, goonswarm can effectively dictate the price of PI materials, either by underselling on a massive scale, flooding the market to drive under competitors, while still making a profit, albiet a smaller one, and then once those competitors have been eliminated, raising the price to whatever you want. What's to stop anyone from going "oh hey look, they've raised the prices, I can profit!" and going back to making and selling again?
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Effectively, goons would always be able to undersell and make a profit, due to volume and absolute control of the chain of supply. And the rest of 0.0 and lowsec won't?
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Even if you have friendly lowsec corps willing to give you 0%, you can't deal in the sort of quantities at the same prices, particularly since the bottleneck on PI infrastructure limiting how much could be harvested at once has been raised. Why? Are we some sort of magic faeries that just **** out PI goo at a rate no-one can match? |
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:42:00 -
[201] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:And tell me, again, what goonswarm makes a killing off of atm and dominates the market? Moon goo? Hmmm.... What are you talking about now? Don't be shy, spell it out. I'm a dumb goon, remember. |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:45:00 -
[202] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:And tell me, again, what goonswarm makes a killing off of atm and dominates the market? Moon goo? Hmmm.... What are you talking about now? Don't be shy, spell it out. I'm a dumb goon, remember.
Apparently Mittani was on the CSM before he was ever on the CSM and told us that technetium would get buffed. We lost delve on purpose so that we could move to the north and get given space, you see. The guy who got kicked off the CSM was just the fall guy, he made his hugely obvious market buy to divert suspicion. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 03:50:00 -
[203] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: And how many systems and planets do we not control? What makes those planets radically better compared to the rest of 0.0? And how many players do we have, vs "the rest of the eve universe"?
Because they are effectively under one control. Compared to the rest of the eve universe, not much, compared to the largest territory holder other then you, quite a bit. Remember that each planet only has so much output per day, and that high sec worlds are heavily mined already. Conversely, nullsec worlds have fantastic output individually, but the alliances are keen to compete with each other rather then cooperate.
Lord Zim wrote: What's to stop anyone from going "oh hey look, they've raised the prices, I can profit!" and going back to making and selling again?
Time. It still takes time to produce any meaningful amount for market, and as soon as anyone does post a meaningful amount, simply lower the price back down again and force them to sell at a loss. Do this enough and peopl will give up rather then try and fight a losing battle.
Lord Zim wrote: And the rest of 0.0 and lowsec won't?
Well, if they all got together and united into an anti-goons cabal and didn't fight each other, sure. But I give a snowball better odds in hell since by nature low and null sec alliances are a mistrustful and vindictive group who are as quick to turn on each other as they are to unite against a common foe.
Lord Zim wrote: Why? Are we some sort of magic faeries that just **** out PI goo at a rate no-one can match?
Actually, yes, you could, easily, assuming that the alliance doesn't start stabbing one another in the back.
Edit:
Lord Zim wrote: What are you talking about now? Don't be shy, spell it out. I'm a dumb goon, remember.
corestwo was implying that the advantage of PI would only have the same impact as the POS savings that alliances get, overlooking that his own alliances makes a considerable portion of it's income exactly that way.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:02:00 -
[204] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Because they are effectively under one control. Compared to the rest of the eve universe, not much, compared to the largest territory holder other then you, quite a bit. Remember that each planet only has so much output per day, and that high sec worlds are heavily mined already. Conversely, nullsec worlds have fantastic output individually, but the alliances are keen to compete with each other rather then cooperate. That's funny. Last I checked, I setup my own planets, and did my own PI. Or are you saying that everyone in goonswarm are forced to make a certain amount of PI stuff and sell to the alliance so the alliance can dictate prices through market manipulation?
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Time. It still takes time to produce any meaningful amount for market, and as soon as anyone does post a meaningful amount, simply lower the price back down again and force them to sell at a loss. Do this enough and peopl will give up rather then try and fight a losing battle. And we're still how many percent of 0.0 and lowsec? I'll wait while you count and do the calculations.
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Well, if they all got together and united into an anti-goons cabal and didn't fight each other, sure. But I give a snowball better odds in hell since by nature low and null sec alliances are a mistrustful and vindictive group who are as quick to turn on each other as they are to unite against a common foe. Ok. I guess we're so big and powerful that there's absolutely ****-all anyone can do to something as spread out as PI. You caught us. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:07:00 -
[205] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: That's funny. Last I checked, I setup my own planets, and did my own PI. Or are you saying that everyone in goonswarm are forced to make a certain amount of PI stuff and sell to the alliance so the alliance can dictate prices through market manipulation?
ATM moon goo is more profitable. Once that isn't the case, how long before all those guys with production alts turn them toward profit. Arknor to veldspar you'll get an alliance PI cabal in short order.
Lord Zim wrote: And we're still how many percent of 0.0 and lowsec? I'll wait while you count and do the calculations.
Doesn't matter. What matters is that it's a united entity rather then the zoo that is lowsec or the other squabbling alliances. High sec has to contend with the fact that 50% of eves active characters live there, so the odds of that unifying any time soon are near nil.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:08:00 -
[206] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:corestwo was implying that the advantage of PI would only have the same impact as the POS savings that alliances get, overlooking that his own alliances makes a considerable portion of it's income exactly that way. Basically. 0.0 takes more effort to hold and typically entails more risks to operate in. This comes with certain perks to compensate.
But I guess you're the type that thinks the game would be at its best if the most money were to be made by running missions in highsec or something. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:17:00 -
[207] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Lord Zim wrote: That's funny. Last I checked, I setup my own planets, and did my own PI. Or are you saying that everyone in goonswarm are forced to make a certain amount of PI stuff and sell to the alliance so the alliance can dictate prices through market manipulation?
ATM moon goo is more profitable. Once that isn't the case, how long before all those guys with production alts turn them toward profit. Arknor to veldspar you'll get an alliance PI cabal in short order. See below.
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Lord Zim wrote:And we're still how many percent of 0.0 and lowsec? I'll wait while you count and do the calculations. Doesn't matter. What matters is that it's a united entity rather then the zoo that is lowsec or the other squabbling alliances. High sec has to contend with the fact that 50% of eves active characters live there, so the odds of that unifying any time soon are near nil. So, are you saying that moongoo is profitable for the common goon, or are you saying that PI is nationalized so the alliance can dictate prices through market manipulation?
And the rest of 0.0 and lowsec isn't even remotely unified to "combat" this? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:21:00 -
[208] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: So, are you saying that moongoo is profitable for the common goon, or are you saying that PI is nationalized so the alliance can dictate prices through market manipulation?
And the rest of 0.0 and lowsec isn't even remotely unified to "combat" this?
Zim, 0.0 has a hard time on occasion uniting against a visible military threat. Quite a few of them subcontract the economic side of their empires to third parties that have no idea what is going on in the alliance next door.
I don't know if I'd use the word 'nationalized' but the idea of goonswarm members forming a united economic front is not without precedent.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:27:00 -
[209] - Quote
And how much do you really think goonswarm can affect the price without cutting off the supply from other sources? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:45:00 -
[210] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:And how much do you really think goonswarm can affect the price without cutting off the supply from other sources?
Quite a bit.
It's not necessary to cut off the supply. Merely undercut it. If the opposition wants any isk at all, they'd either have to find a way to match your prices, though the much loved pew pew, or sell at a loss.
Or give up and go sell something else, which is the most likely event, as players in eve are not known for their ability to wait four or five months to make a sale.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 04:59:00 -
[211] - Quote
Figured I'd drop by and share one more tidbit with you, since all your hurfing and blurfing is predicated on a 0% tax rate.
We're actually setting our POCOs at 15%. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 05:15:00 -
[212] - Quote
For neutrals, I can believe it. For blues, somehow I'm skeptical that you're charging your own alliance a higher rate then high sec.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Frog Out
Eighty Joule Brewery Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 05:19:00 -
[213] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:For neutrals, I can believe it. For blues, somehow I'm skeptical that you're charging your own alliance a higher rate then high sec.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
err... wait....
A HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 05:34:00 -
[214] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:For neutrals, I can believe it. For blues, somehow I'm skeptical that you're charging your own alliance a higher rate then high sec. Well, sucks to be you, then. It is 15%.
But I'm seriously curious as to how low you think we'd have to push the prices down before people would stop trying to sell theirs. |
Qris
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 05:37:00 -
[215] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:For neutrals, I can believe it. For blues, somehow I'm skeptical that you're charging your own alliance a higher rate then high sec.
You just spent a whole lot of :words: describing our alliance leader as a dirty conniving no good exploiting cheating bastard, and now you have trouble believing that this said same bastard is too honourable to take isk from the pockets of the common goon? |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 06:00:00 -
[216] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:For neutrals, I can believe it. For blues, somehow I'm skeptical that you're charging your own alliance a higher rate then high sec.
Interbus POCOs are 17%, everyone works with those until they're replaced. And in any case, 0.0 extracts at a higher rate so even at 15% our guys still come out ahead.
I bet you don't know what to believe now |
Anela Cistine
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
94
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 06:09:00 -
[217] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:For neutrals, I can believe it. For blues, somehow I'm skeptical that you're charging your own alliance a higher rate then high sec.
"The Direkkktorate is f*cking us again." -- popular Goon catchphrase |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 06:25:00 -
[218] - Quote
Qris wrote: You just spent a whole lot of :words: describing our alliance leader as a dirty conniving no good exploiting cheating bastard, and now you have trouble believing that this said same bastard is too honourable to take isk from the pockets of the common goon?
When it stands in the way of him making even most isk then he could off you, yes, I find it baffling. Unless it's either a big lie or they're trying hard ot not look like crooks.
Zim, this is just based off my little tours in goon held space, but my estimate is that you could consistently undersell the market by 5% and still make a killing.
That is of course, assuming that this is a plan, and not all a happy coincidence that goonswarms leaders are too dense to realize. Given their success over time, somehow I doubt that they're that blind to the long term possibility.
Of course, if they are, I'm certain one of the other alliances will probably rush to fill the gap.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 06:35:00 -
[219] - Quote
The other flaw in your reasoning is that you're assuming that goons are somehow actually a collective economic force. While this is true in some ways, "collectively working together to fix the price of our respective players PI output" is not one of them.
But hey, keep ranting and raving about the big bad goons. |
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 07:14:00 -
[220] - Quote
We market PvP against ourselves way harder than we do against hisec, even counting the ice interdiction. A 40x markup over Jita for basic modules is not unheard of. |
|
Largo Coronet
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
44
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 07:16:00 -
[221] - Quote
We can't even get our pilots to stop jumping through hostile gates. Mass market manips are a bit of a stretch. |
Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 07:54:00 -
[222] - Quote
Largo Coronet wrote:We can't even get our pilots to stop jumping through hostile gates. Mass market manips are a bit of a stretch. Me thinks the goon doth protest too much.
I can exclusively reveal that this plan to set empire COs to 17% and set GOON POCOs TO ONLY 15% was conceived at the 2007 BOB barbecue before MC infiltrated GOONs and PL and placed our lackeys in control of the CSM, CCP, team BFF and yay even unto this forum itself.
I love it when a plan comes together.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 08:29:00 -
[223] - Quote
Sorry, I have a hard time swallowing the idea that you are all that stupid not to work together. Either goonswarm has really gone down the toilet since my last dealings with you, in the war on BoB, or you guys are full of ****.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Vashan Tar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 09:52:00 -
[224] - Quote
haha, anytime anyone tries to undercut in goonspace that **** gets relisted by Theta within 10 minutes.... |
FastJack316
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 10:32:00 -
[225] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Sorry, I have a hard time swallowing the idea that you are all that stupid not to work together. Either goonswarm has really gone down the toilet since my last dealings with you, in the war on BoB, or you guys are full of ****.
It's spectacularly obvious that you never had dealings with goons, if you don't know what fuckgoons prices are.
Given the existence of public killboards claiming that you were involved in the war with BoB is a very silly claim to make.
But please, keep telling us how things really work in 0.0 |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 11:48:00 -
[226] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:When it stands in the way of him making even most isk then he could off you, yes, I find it baffling. Unless it's either a big lie or they're trying hard ot not look like crooks. You have gotten the memo that we're literally throwing isk at our members, yes? Even to the point where our members are being paid to shoot pubbies in mining ships in gallente space?
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Zim, this is just based off my little tours in goon held space, but my estimate is that you could consistently undersell the market by 5% and still make a killing. And how far down do you think it'll have to go before the rest of the market can't keep up?
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:That is of course, assuming that this is a plan, and not all a happy coincidence that goonswarms leaders are too dense to realize. Given their success over time, somehow I doubt that they're that blind to the long term possibility. You know how they say, if you assume, you make an ass out of you and me?
You just did. |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 12:11:00 -
[227] - Quote
you where already an ass... so it shouldnt have hurt |
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries Pandorum Invictus
29
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 12:22:00 -
[228] - Quote
Hmm....seeing where this thread has gone, I'm thinking POCO's are flawless and now working as intended? |
Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 13:22:00 -
[229] - Quote
Joshua Aivoras wrote:Hmm....seeing where this thread has gone, I'm thinking POCO's are flawless and now working as intended? If by flawless you mean cause grief, tears, rage and endless conflict and amusement, then, by George I think she's got it! |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
135
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 16:49:00 -
[230] - Quote
Judging by Jita prices, there are no problems at all with this change. PI products are still available and reasonably priced. People are fighting over POCOs. Highsec had an isk sink go up in size.
Looks pretty good so far. |
|
Ellin Einher
Galactic Express Intrepid Crossing
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:03:00 -
[231] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Judging by Jita prices, there are no problems at all with this change. PI products are still available and reasonably priced. People are fighting over POCOs. Highsec had an isk sink go up in size.
Looks pretty good so far.
Now we just need the nullsec isk sink, namely taxing moon goo. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:09:00 -
[232] - Quote
You mean things like SOV costs? |
Ellin Einher
Galactic Express Intrepid Crossing
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 18:11:00 -
[233] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:You mean things like SOV costs?
Sov costs are nothing compared to the tech income :) |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:35:00 -
[234] - Quote
FastJack316 wrote:[ Given the existence of public killboards claiming that you were involved in the war with BoB is a very silly claim to make.
Never said I got killed. You do realize that there are more ways to be involved in an operation then just pew pew, right? I mean, someone has to bring the extra ammo and supplies out to you.
IIRC the guys that contacted me ordered Tech II drones, missiles, and autocannon ammo. Lots of all of the above. 400m, paid in cash, half up front, half on delivery.
And, as was my policy at the time, was happy to deliver to whatever war-zone was needed.
BTW: if you believe killboards, I have a deed to Jita 4-4 you might be interested in. For the life of me I don't remember that carrier kill with black sun, and I know I lost more ships to loot and STK then are listed in any of the kill boards, i still have records for the insurance payouts.
As far as goons prices to one another, it would explain why they were willing to pay 20% on top of market gladly, I admit.
I still don't buy that you're that dumb. Be sneering and dismissive all you like, but I know what I see and I know what I've done, and I don't particularly give a **** if you believe me or not, my point still stands.
Goons stand to make a ton off this. I don't see any other alliance posting on any thread on this subject on this board but you.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
206
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:40:00 -
[235] - Quote
Actually, come to think of it, nothing like SOV costs, because that's just a pure ISK sink. I suppose what'll happen, if CCP wants to tax moongoo, is they'll make MI, a replica of PI, only for moons. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
136
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 21:22:00 -
[236] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: I don't see any other alliance posting on any thread on this subject on this board but you.
It's because it is our posting that gives us our strength.
By the way all the POCO activity and market prices post-patch are proving me right so far. |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2465
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 22:09:00 -
[237] - Quote
Cygnet nicely confirms my assumption that, to put up with the sheer tedium and awfulness of PI, you have to be a raging sperg who dates spreadsheets. The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
Ellin Einher
Galactic Express Intrepid Crossing
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 00:16:00 -
[238] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Actually, come to think of it, nothing like SOV costs, because that's just a pure ISK sink. I suppose what'll happen, if CCP wants to tax moongoo, is they'll make MI, a replica of PI, only for moons.
My friend, I like that idea, Moon interaction, it's way better than the super passive, moon mining which only works to fuel big alliances and leave aside smaller ones. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 09:57:00 -
[239] - Quote
The Mittani wrote:Cygnet nicely confirms my assumption that, to put up with the sheer tedium and awfulness of PI, you have to be a raging sperg who dates spreadsheets.
Better that then a corrupt bastard that uses any position, and I do mean any position, he assumes to screw people because he can't get it up.
See, here's the thing Mitt, even if you win here, even if you dominate EvE, what's that get you in the end? King of the Scrap yard? Lord of the Wasteland?
'Our ships run on the tears of others'. Yeah, but in the end, people will stop being your victims, one way or another. And then what, Mitt? What happens when these jokers realize they've been taken for a ride all this time by someone who's really a very small person, no matter how hard he pretends otherwise.
Eventually, Mitt, all these guys and gals posting for you, all these 'loyal goons' are going to realize you're nothing but a leech. A parasite on both their fun and their game.
Goon ships run on tears Mitt. One day they'll run on yours.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
139
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 16:50:00 -
[240] - Quote
Cygnet is so mad at these changes and his loss of the posting war that he continues his bitter attempt to get the thread locked for off-topic trolling. Dude needs a forum temp ban.
In other news, people are realizing that the world has NOT ended and PI is still something they can do, so forum opposition from anyone not named Cygnet has fallen to a trickle. The tax changes are good and POCOs are flying off the shelves. Expansion success. |
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 16:55:00 -
[241] - Quote
I can only hope Cygnet actually believes all that, because that would really make his posts all the better. |
Crystal Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
35
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 17:16:00 -
[242] - Quote
Not to flog the dead horse, but the whole thing doesn't make sense, PI was/is an individual activity.
You can't group up with some protection and a hauler and do Corp PI.
Now all of a sudden the CO is an Alliance based design.
Hellooo?
Most corps do not have all their members PI on the same planets, even in the same region, people have set it up all over the place, INDIVIDUALLY because it is a INDIVIDUAL activity.
Even the benfit of having your own POCO is pointless unless everyone tears down their PI and moves, what does that cost?
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 19:57:00 -
[243] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Cygnet is so mad at these changes and his loss of the posting war that he continues his bitter attempt to get the thread locked for off-topic trolling. Dude needs a forum temp ban.
In other news, people are realizing that the world has NOT ended and PI is still something they can do, so forum opposition from anyone not named Cygnet has fallen to a trickle. The tax changes are good and POCOs are flying off the shelves. Expansion success.
And it wouldn't have had anything to do with goonswarm trolling every thread on it while the mods do nothing? You do know that, unlike me, most people get bored or irritated with you guys and go do something constructive like cancel their accounts.
And, for an alliance that has no interesting in mining and PI, how is it exactly that you're pulling down the 12,000,000m3 per day on that level 5 then? Magic? Are you ganking the asteroids and then looting their wrecks?
Edit: amazingly this went up before pmchem accused Crystal of being my alt due ot failure to agree with goonswarm.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Pirokobo
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 20:01:00 -
[244] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote: control. Compared to the rest of the eve universe, not much, compared to the largest territory holder other then you, quite a bit.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliances
We are not the largest territory holder. Not even by a long shot.
-¦-+-¦-Ç-ï-¦ -¦-¦-+-î. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 20:02:00 -
[245] - Quote
Trolling, or setting the record straight? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 20:04:00 -
[246] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Trolling, or setting the record straight?
Level 5 industry, anyone?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
211
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 20:48:00 -
[247] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Level 5 industry, anyone? Pretty high for a alliance with supposedly no organized mining ops. I have no idea how much clearer I can say this, but there are no alliance-wide mining ops. vOv |
CynoNet Two
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
267
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 21:05:00 -
[248] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:The Mittani wrote:Cygnet nicely confirms my assumption that, to put up with the sheer tedium and awfulness of PI, you have to be a raging sperg who dates spreadsheets. Better that then a corrupt bastard that uses any position, and I do mean any position, he assumes to screw people because he can't get it up. See, here's the thing Mitt, even if you win here, even if you dominate EvE, what's that get you in the end? King of the Scrap yard? Lord of the Wasteland? 'Our ships run on the tears of others'. Yeah, but in the end, people will stop being your victims, one way or another. And then what, Mitt? What happens when these jokers realize they've been taken for a ride all this time by someone who's really a very small person, no matter how hard he pretends otherwise. Eventually, Mitt, all these guys and gals posting for you, all these 'loyal goons' are going to realize you're nothing but a leech. A parasite on both their fun and their game. Goon ships run on tears Mitt. One day they'll run on yours.
I'm clicking 'like' on your post.
It's not because I agree with you, you understand. It's because it makes me happy that I'm not you. So happy. |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2493
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 21:10:00 -
[249] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:The Mittani wrote:Cygnet nicely confirms my assumption that, to put up with the sheer tedium and awfulness of PI, you have to be a raging sperg who dates spreadsheets. Better that then a corrupt bastard that uses any position, and I do mean any position, he assumes to screw people because he can't get it up. See, here's the thing Mitt, even if you win here, even if you dominate EvE, what's that get you in the end? King of the Scrap yard? Lord of the Wasteland? 'Our ships run on the tears of others'. Yeah, but in the end, people will stop being your victims, one way or another. And then what, Mitt? What happens when these jokers realize they've been taken for a ride all this time by someone who's really a very small person, no matter how hard he pretends otherwise. Eventually, Mitt, all these guys and gals posting for you, all these 'loyal goons' are going to realize you're nothing but a leech. A parasite on both their fun and their game. Goon ships run on tears Mitt. One day they'll run on yours.
my nickname is 'mittens'
The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2493
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 21:10:00 -
[250] - Quote
we were ganked our forums are bad, lawl!
also i pretty much get it up when i cause pain, not because i can't get it up in the first place. that's kind of the whole point The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
|
CynoNet Two
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
267
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 21:10:00 -
[251] - Quote
Crystal Liche wrote:Not to flog the dead horse, but the whole thing doesn't make sense, PI was/is an individual activity.
You can't group up with some protection and a hauler and do Corp PI.
Now all of a sudden the CO is an Alliance based design.
Hellooo?
Most corps do not have all their members PI on the same planets, even in the same region, people have set it up all over the place, INDIVIDUALLY because it is a INDIVIDUAL activity.
Even the benfit of having your own POCO is pointless unless everyone tears down their PI and moves, what does that cost?
PI is as much an individual activity as ratting and mining. Yet if you're doing any of these outside of hi-sec you generally need some form of support from an organised group. POCOs are the game mechanic that lets PI feed into corp or alliance-level income in the same way as ratting taxes and refining takes on outposts. It's also a form of 'cushion' for when CCP eventually nerfs moon-mining, allowing groups to keep getting income from member activities. |
The Mittani
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2493
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 21:12:00 -
[252] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Trolling, or setting the record straight? Level 5 industry, anyone? Pretty high for a alliance with supposedly no organized mining ops. And we'll ignore those systems in Outer Ring and Fountain and Aridia you dominate entirely without actually claiming. Oh, and 4th place from the top is pretty close, actually.
i own aridia now?
thanks science and industry, i learn new things itf everyday The Office of the Chairman: A Thread for Constituent Issues |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
72
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 22:56:00 -
[253] - Quote
The Mittani wrote: also i pretty much get it up when i cause pain
He is a RL Lawyer, after all.
Poor taste? Eh f*** it.
As for the Goons mining and doing PI, I'd bet there are plenty of them doing both, but they don't have mandatory combat ops. They protect their space through volunteerism. Why in the world would they have mandatory mining ops? |
Gar Earthbendiir
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 00:18:00 -
[254] - Quote
I guess there's lotsa good points put up in these 13 pages.... TL;DR past page 3 for me.
All numbers aside, I'm a fan of putting up POCO's in my lo sec enemy's backyard and then fighting over it. I've gotten a lot of 'meh' from my corp, but I think it's because nobody's ever fought over a POCO. It's new and unknown, and generally known as boring. I think. Oh well, we'll see how it goes right? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
25
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 03:15:00 -
[255] - Quote
The Mittani wrote: my nickname is 'mittens'
Stop by my office, and get the form filled out in triplicate, have it notarized, and I'll consider calling you that.
BTW: what bar are you before? Nevada?
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
73
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 04:34:00 -
[256] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:The Mittani wrote: my nickname is 'mittens'
Stop by my office, and get the form filled out in triplicate, have it notarized, and I'll consider calling you that. BTW: what bar are you before? Nevada?
I'm often in front of any bar that hasn't 86'd me yet, but I suspect you were asking Mittens. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
141
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 04:52:00 -
[257] - Quote
Gar Earthbendiir wrote:I guess there's lotsa good points put up in these 13 pages.... TL;DR past page 3 for me.
tl;dr - I make a post about taxes which economically minded people and CCP agree is a good thing for the game. Expansion includes the change. Hysterical highsec (and some lowsec) people are mad their profits are reduced by some small percent and furiously post about how this will be THE DEATH OF EVE UNSUBBING 40000 ACCTS!!! Other people argue or laugh in response. Markets prove me correct and POCOs are a popular success, life goes on. |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 06:16:00 -
[258] - Quote
No you didnt you came on here doing damage control for the goons.... Which is funny as hell cause no one believes you anyway.... |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
212
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 07:17:00 -
[259] - Quote
Damage control? For what? We're loving the changes, at least those of us who aren't complete jews. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
73
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 08:12:00 -
[260] - Quote
Damage Control? Goons? Goons don't do PR damage control, they do PR damage amplification. They're kind of funny(sociopathic) like that. |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
26
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 14:50:00 -
[261] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Damage Control? Goons? Goons don't do PR damage control, they do PR damage amplification. They're kind of funny(sociopathic) like that.
Yeah, the smart thing would have been to ignore the grumblings instead of posting in every single thread on the subject. It makes you look desperate to hide something.
Makes people like me dig deeper and harder.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
216
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 15:17:00 -
[262] - Quote
Go ahead and dig. I'm sure you'll find absolutely ****-all.
Make sure you post your findings. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
29
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 22:08:00 -
[263] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Go ahead and dig. I'm sure you'll find absolutely ****-all.
Make sure you post your findings.
That wasn't the point and you know it. The point was that being super defensive of a given subject makes goons look like they're guilty of something.
It's sort of like:
'Who ate some of the cookies?'
'I have NO IDEA where those two cookies went! and even if I did, i certainly wouldn't have eaten them both while you were in the other room!'
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 22:19:00 -
[264] - Quote
I might believe you except for the fact goons are flooding every PI post with BS.... But hey lol you have to love people like that. They lie so much they even believe it themselves,,,... Just glance at any post with PI in it i found 1 that hasnt got some goons in it repeating the same lines over and over,
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
218
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 22:22:00 -
[265] - Quote
If you say so. We're telling you how things are, if you think that's "being defensive" then that's your problem. And I'm telling you, now, to go ahead and dig if you really think we're hiding something, and remember to tell us about it if you do find something. I'll be here, waiting. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
76
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 04:41:00 -
[266] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Go ahead and dig. I'm sure you'll find absolutely ****-all.
Make sure you post your findings. That wasn't the point and you know it. The point was that being super defensive of a given subject makes goons look like they're guilty of something. It's sort of like: 'Who ate some of the cookies?' 'I have NO IDEA where those two cookies went! and even if I did, i certainly wouldn't have eaten them both while you were in the other room!'
The depths have already been dug. (They weren't that deep anyway). Goons have been driving oxytopes up through coordinated suicide ganking. Before starting they bought enormous stockpiles of it. The alliance now has even fatter stacks of cash. The evidence for this is in the many posts where the Goons told the public their plan and how they were going to accomplish it.
... Wait, this is the Goons are mean about PI whine thread, not the Oxytopes whine thread.
This thread's OP was about how the POCOs would likely affect PI based on the SISI taxes. In some cases, the SISI taxes were 50-100x lower than what made it to TQ. Somehow this became the Goons fault (I still don't get that logical leap).
And if you were talking about digging into me, I'm former WI. Goons NOMed WI. FREE WIDOT. Hole pre-dug for you to search (it's like taking viagra on your way to the airport).
Besides, Goons make too many funny things happen in EVE to possibly dislike them for very long. |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
38
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 07:57:00 -
[267] - Quote
I could be one oft he only people here that love the goons for all they do in Eve. Granted I don't stoop low enough to mine either minerals or ice so am not subject to their suicide ganking (and if if I was, being suicide ganked mining would be doing me a service of slapping me around and asking 'WTF are you doing this for you moron?!? get out of mining NOW!').
So saying that, I've never been harassed by goons in all the time I've played and their market manipulations and trolling in the forums are almost always funny, some just make you scratch your head and move on wondering wtf you just read but that's teh same in any forum.
If they are going to hike up the PI goods, all the power to em. Grand scheme of things everyone will either directly or indirectly make more isk from a large number of activities related to PI as a consequence of a price hike. Now if they crash it (not going to happen but still IF) then it's also a win for alot of people that use PI goods to make stuff and fuel their PoS's. For me currently if the PI market goes up from goons threatening to hike it up or crashes I would be uneffected due to margins being how they are I would still make cash, or just pull out of the market totally and reinvest in something else that may end up being a gold mine that I never knew about.
All the pointless whining about PI taxes, null sec getting a great deal and HS being screwed and low sec being left in that permanent gray area are pointless. It just shows how inflexible you are to a dynamic environment. If you find HS taxes force you to make no profit for whatever reason and you refuse to go to low sec and do it with, lets admit, bugger all risk then you deserve to be left out in the cold whilst the adaptive kids have a party.
Remember there are two things certain in life: Death and Taxes...this is your wake up call :P |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
51
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 13:34:00 -
[268] - Quote
Oh, I did some calculations today. Turns out apart from 3 exceptions that market prices (the lower, buy-order ones) are already high enough to cover highsec PI taxes even if I assume you export and re-import at every stage.
All you guys who said highsec PI for newbies was dead were wrong. Anyone can thoughtlessly make isk my passively extracting PI materials - so long as they avoid Biofuels (P1), Guidance Systems (P3) and Planetary Vehicles (P3) Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 14:18:00 -
[269] - Quote
shhh...don't let the unwashed masses know this! if they do the markets will crash!
Haha who am I kidding, people are too lazy to do PI and the stigma that it's dead in high sec and low sec has already settled, even if it's only had a few days to get it's tendrils out.
Really though I'm back to normal if not slightly higher margins after a minor re-organization, mainly due to changing locations of factory worlds.
Side note: the buff to transit tubes or whatever they are called is handy as hell! |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 14:42:00 -
[270] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote: All you guys who said highsec PI for newbies was dead were wrong. Anyone can thoughtlessly make isk my passively extracting PI materials - so long as they avoid Biofuels (P1), Guidance Systems (P3) and Planetary Vehicles (P3)
So the costs of T2 drones and missiles are not yet done rising.
Again, this is bad for the game past the short tun. The effects still have not fully rippled outward through the market. They're still going, and won't be fully realized for months. Saying 'Well the price has stabilized at 'profit' for these items.' isn't even close to true, because the T2 items that are the result of these haven't really been effected much yet due to existing stockpiles.
It's the same reason that T2 didn't instantly double in price when PI was introduced but has been slowly climbing.
The real issue come about when t2 prices rise. Sure, the individual items increase in profit, but demand starts to decline the higher the price goes. A few people hav told me I'm over estimating the elasticity in demand for t2, but my own experiences in the market tell me I'm not.
We'll see if this remains healthy six months from now when stockpiles have dwindled a bit.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
225
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:05:00 -
[271] - Quote
Why is this "bad for the game"? Are you expecting T2 modules to double or quadrouple in price, or are you really saying that f.ex a 10% increase in t2 modules/ships/ammo's price will break the game? |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:23:00 -
[272] - Quote
In the last year prices have increased 50-100% before the PI changes. Some have increase 20% or more in the few days since.
That they might double again within six months is not outside the realm of possibility, though I'm thinking closer to the year mark.
That it might break the game is a real possibility. The higher the prices rise, the more difficult it is for new players to be competitive with older players. These guys eventually get frustrated and quit, heading over to games like WoT or ToR or whatever.
Remember that the majority of alliances don't recruit heavily below the 1 year mark, which is the time period that the majority of these budding pvpers get disgusted and pack it in, even though it's possible to get into tech 2 in a month or two.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
226
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:52:00 -
[273] - Quote
Why would they double? You realize that the reason they doubled in the first place was the stuff we make out of PI was NPC seeded, and as such had artificially low prices? This change adds 10-20%, the fuel price might add a few percent more. I strongly doubt t2 prices'll double. |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
51
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 15:57:00 -
[274] - Quote
There's no real reason for PI goods to further increase in cost - the adjustment to the new PI tariffs has taken place. In fact, I expect some prices to decrease as margins become tighter. Whilst POCOs can undercut these margins, highsec tariff rates will set the standard prices in general.
Please bear in mind that the changes (to the tariff rates and the increase to 10%) has resulted in an effective increase of PI taxes of between 400,000-700,000k isk per P4 unit. Each 5% increase to PI tax rates causes a further 300,000-500,000k PI tax increase.
So I don't expect the PI changes to cause further effects to T2 prices. The biggest up coming change will be the fuel pellets and the homogenisation of fuels costs regardless of tower setup. Make isk with PI: http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?1207-What-to-do-PI-Processor-only-planets |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
27
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 18:01:00 -
[275] - Quote
I'm sorry, I still don't get the whole worry about the price of T2 stuff and PI. I really just have to say "So what!"
Are we worried that people will stop using T2 drones and Missiles in PVE? T2 drones are a drop in the bucket to most decent L4 setup. I am sure the people flying around in CNR's and Golems are going to stop running L4's because a Hammerhead II went from 500k to 750K each, or a DCII went from 1M to 1.5M. And really PVE sales should pale in comparison to PVP.
And for PVP, do you think someone is going to buy a 30M hull for a decent DPS BC, and then worry about spending 2-3M more for T2 fit than Meta 3?
People are also speaking out of both sides of their mouth with "PI cost are going to make T2 soar" and "I bought enough old NPC PI stuff to last forever". So if I figure that one person was not the only one smart enough to make those plans, then I am assured stable prices until all the smart people's supply of old NPC goods runs out.
In the end, the demand for PI stuff is going to stay relatively constant, and mainly from POS usage, not the T2 market.
The initial reaction to the new tariffs has already stabilized and returned to a profit level about where it was for HS. The question long term will be what Null/Low/W-space people decide to do if they have 0% tax rate on their POCO's. If they are stupid they will undercut the HS market and establish a level HS can not compete on. Or, more hopefully, they will take the Tariff's (or lack thereof) and pocket more isk to help offset logistics costs and investment costs.
So here's to 2M Isk for a DCII's and 1M Isk for T2 drones soon. I am for it.
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 23:05:00 -
[276] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote: People are also speaking out of both sides of their mouth with "PI cost are going to make T2 soar" and "I bought enough old NPC PI stuff to last forever". So if I figure that one person was not the only one smart enough to make those plans, then I am assured stable prices until all the smart people's supply of old NPC goods runs out.
In the end, the demand for PI stuff is going to stay relatively constant, and mainly from POS usage, not the T2 market.
The initial reaction to the new tariffs has already stabilized and returned to a profit level about where it was for HS. The question long term will be what Null/Low/W-space people decide to do if they have 0% tax rate on their POCO's. If they are stupid they will undercut the HS market and establish a level HS can not compete on. Or, more hopefully, they will take the Tariff's (or lack thereof) and pocket more isk to help offset logistics costs and investment costs.
So here's to 2M Isk for a DCII's and 1M Isk for T2 drones soon. I am for it.
Actually, I'm willing to bet that most people did not buy enough robotics to keep their POS running for 28,000 years. I know that I did only by accident, but it turned out for the best.
'Most' producers have since exhausted their surplus from before PI, which is why the cost of T2 has risen as far as it has.
As far as it being kept artificially low, there was a reason, mostly the crippling effect that high Tech II had on new players previous to that point.
And at the moment, you are not yet seeing how far the price will rise. Prices may have stabilized in the short term only to rise in the long term (such as happened with command ships).
And how would undercutting HS be stupid on their part? That's like saying that major alliances were stupid to set up cabals to control the price of t2 before invention. Remember that PvP in EvE isn't limited to just ship on ship violence. The marketbears are just as eager to bankrupt other players as PvP players are to gank them and loot their wrecks.
You're all for it because you do not see how it impacts you, personally.
You're missing the bigger picture. Requiring a higher fiscal level to viably PvP hinders the game when it comes to gaining users, particularly since it's no longer the only game in town anymore.
This in turn is bad for CCP, who are laying off and trying to consolidate around what they see as their money makers. The fewer new players EvE retains, the more difficult it is to justify the expense of developing new content.
Which hurts everyone.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Hundo Kay
Great White North Exploration Gryphon League
29
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 23:24:00 -
[277] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Hundo Kay wrote: People are also speaking out of both sides of their mouth with "PI cost are going to make T2 soar" and "I bought enough old NPC PI stuff to last forever". So if I figure that one person was not the only one smart enough to make those plans, then I am assured stable prices until all the smart people's supply of old NPC goods runs out.
In the end, the demand for PI stuff is going to stay relatively constant, and mainly from POS usage, not the T2 market.
The initial reaction to the new tariffs has already stabilized and returned to a profit level about where it was for HS. The question long term will be what Null/Low/W-space people decide to do if they have 0% tax rate on their POCO's. If they are stupid they will undercut the HS market and establish a level HS can not compete on. Or, more hopefully, they will take the Tariff's (or lack thereof) and pocket more isk to help offset logistics costs and investment costs.
So here's to 2M Isk for a DCII's and 1M Isk for T2 drones soon. I am for it.
Actually, I'm willing to bet that most people did not buy enough robotics to keep their POS running for 28,000 years. I know that I did only by accident, but it turned out for the best. 'Most' producers have since exhausted their surplus from before PI, which is why the cost of T2 has risen as far as it has. As far as it being kept artificially low, there was a reason, mostly the crippling effect that high Tech II had on new players previous to that point. And at the moment, you are not yet seeing how far the price will rise. Prices may have stabilized in the short term only to rise in the long term (such as happened with command ships). And how would undercutting HS be stupid on their part? That's like saying that major alliances were stupid to set up cabals to control the price of t2 before invention. Remember that PvP in EvE isn't limited to just ship on ship violence. The marketbears are just as eager to bankrupt other players as PvP players are to gank them and loot their wrecks. You're all for it because you do not see how it impacts you, personally. You're missing the bigger picture. Requiring a higher fiscal level to viably PvP hinders the game when it comes to gaining users, particularly since it's no longer the only game in town anymore. This in turn is bad for CCP, who are laying off and trying to consolidate around what they see as their money makers. The fewer new players EvE retains, the more difficult it is to justify the expense of developing new content. Which hurts everyone.
No I see it fine.
Incursions are sick isk
L4's are sick Isk
No one with any skill in the game is going to sneeze at higher cost for some T2 items, as they are not the major cost in a ship setup.
Sure if they go up 10x or 20x that will have an impact. But not the level the PI increase will contribute.
Keep all your "Chicken Little" posts and we will see in 6 months how many people have decided to not PvP because of the astronomical cost of T2 goods.
And I do PvP, so I do see the cost. So with the increase in my PI income I will more then offset the ships and mods i go through in pew pew. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
142
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 01:19:00 -
[278] - Quote
Hundo Kay wrote: Incursions are sick isk
That's actually the next thing that needs to be nerfed. Incursions are too much of an isk fountain, it's crazy. They are in need of iteration.
POCOs seem to be turning out quite well so far, I am happy. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1215
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 07:54:00 -
[279] - Quote
someone tl;dr me this is a ******* long thread that i don't want to be bothered to skim through |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 08:00:00 -
[280] - Quote
TL;DR version:
People: QQ!!! CCP wtf you do with PI taxes?!?! You have destroyed the game...I'm going to quit
Other people: Cool, go, can I have your stuffz
Smart people: PI tax is fine, POCO are fine. Learn to adapt and HTFU or GTFO of PI and go back to incursions/mining/insert other activity.
There is alot more subtleties in the thread and other things been covered, but thats the basics with no flesh.
EDIT: also forgot the bitching and moaning towards teh goons, but that's normal from people being jelly of them. Again the general consensus is for them to HTFU too. |
|
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
234
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 08:19:00 -
[281] - Quote
The titan in my pants is certainly doing a HTFU impression at the tinfoilhattery expressed by some of the posters in these PI threads. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 08:54:00 -
[282] - Quote
Alisarina wrote:TL;DR version:
People: QQ!!! CCP wtf you do with PI taxes?!?! You have destroyed the game...I'm going to quit
Other people: Cool, go, can I have your stuffz
Smart people: PI tax is fine, POCO are fine. Learn to adapt and HTFU or GTFO of PI and go back to incursions/mining/insert other activity.
There is alot more subtleties in the thread and other things been covered, but thats the basics with no flesh.
EDIT: also forgot the bitching and moaning towards teh goons, but that's normal from people being jelly of them. Again the general consensus is for them to HTFU too.
Who said anything about any of the posters (at least that I've noticed) quitting?
You left out the usual nullsec whining about highsec having too many isk faucets and not enough being herded into lowsec because PvP players haven't had enough easy kills, as well as the usual posting alt tomfoolery.
Lord Zim wrote:The titan in my pants is certainly doing a HTFU impression at the tinfoilhattery expressed by some of the posters in these PI threads.
Put that noobship away.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1217
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 09:39:00 -
[283] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Who said anything about any of the posters (at least that I've noticed) quitting?
You left out the usual nullsec whining about highsec having too many isk faucets and not enough being herded into lowsec because PvP players haven't had enough easy kills, as well as the usual posting alt tomfoolery.
i am an honourable player who does not engage in any pvp at all whatsoever
*strongarms 20 other PI producers out of a market* |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
236
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 09:54:00 -
[284] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Who said anything about any of the posters (at least that I've noticed) quitting? You haven't been looking very hard at the myriad of posters saying "that's it, I'm quitting because of PI!", have you?
There's been tons.
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:You left out the usual nullsec whining about highsec having too many isk faucets and not enough being herded into lowsec because PvP players haven't had enough easy kills, as well as the usual posting alt tomfoolery. If you must call pointing out the fact that lots of people left nullsec to go incursioning in hisec instead, for whining, sure. Go ahead. You'd be wrong, but go right ahead. I'll just put that in the same basket as your other "the goons are protesting too much, there must be a nefarious reason behind this, I just have to find it! A HA! The devblog for POCOs were released 'shortly' before crucible, so now the goons must be hitting lowsec POCOs!" vOv
As to the lowsec POCOs, please don't mention that to boat, he'll go at them structures like a pig after truffles. :cripes: |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1218
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 10:42:00 -
[285] - Quote
quick quick broadcast for caps and supers THIS POCO WILL BURN |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
238
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 10:48:00 -
[286] - Quote
No no no no nooooo shut up shut up shut up no more structures mommy please I'll be good |
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 11:08:00 -
[287] - Quote
for a bit of fun, can you doomsday the interbus CO's and POCO's?
Could make for some funny vids if you could with a few titans DDing a POCO with the caption 'GTFO my lawn!'. It would be mildly amusing, even though it wouldn't kill it. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1218
|
Posted - 2011.12.07 11:22:00 -
[288] - Quote
Alisarina wrote:for a bit of fun, can you doomsday the interbus CO's and POCO's?
Could make for some funny vids if you could with a few titans DDing a POCO with the caption 'GTFO my lawn!'. It would be mildly amusing, even though it wouldn't kill it.
can't DD structures |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
145
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 01:19:00 -
[289] - Quote
When I was reloading my Erebus shooting an Interbus CO, I kinda wished I had cross trained to a Rev on my dread char so I could just totally afk this sort of thing.
hey team papercuts where is my 'resume shooting after reloading' option |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
32
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 16:59:00 -
[290] - Quote
pmchem wrote:When I was reloading my Erebus shooting an Interbus CO, I kinda wished I had cross trained to a Rev on my dread char so I could just totally afk this sort of thing.
hey team papercuts where is my 'resume shooting after reloading' option
we are the 1% |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
32
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 22:20:00 -
[291] - Quote
pmchem wrote:When I was reloading my Erebus shooting an Interbus CO, I kinda wished I had cross trained to a Rev on my dread char so I could just totally afk this sort of thing.
hey team papercuts where is my 'resume shooting after reloading' option
Probably wherever they put loot corps suggestion for a 'target, fire, armor rep, and warp if we're outnumbered' button.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 14:49:00 -
[292] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: If you must call pointing out the fact that lots of people left nullsec to go incursioning in hisec instead, for whining, sure. Go ahead. You'd be wrong, but go right ahead.
Meh. The only difference between easily mocked whining and calling out valid points is who's side you are on....
At the end of the day, this changed had winners and losers. Some people were nerfed, some people were buffed. Naturally the people who got a buff are happy, and the people who got nerfed are not. Same applies to the concepts behind the change.. some people see the direction the developers are trying to push people as 'correct' and thus good, others see the push as taking forcing people into playstyles they don't enjoy. Thus again, whining and legitimate points depend on which side of that opinion one is on. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.09 16:42:00 -
[293] - Quote
Bleh.
I finally got to sit down and figure out the taxes for my worst case production run... maybe prices will continue to adjust, but for the moment high sec robotics at least are doing pretty badly.
Taxes come out to 91k (using 4 production and 1 factory planet) while buy/sell orders run from 56k-75k.
So for the time being, those intermediate taxes are real killers.
(edited to add - going to have to recheck these numbers though...) |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
145
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 02:30:00 -
[294] - Quote
Nekopyat wrote: Yep, the numbers were screwy. The market has actually adjusted nicely.
Yeah, as I posted elsewhere -- the pre-crucible speculation and tax effects are kind of cancelling each other out for large segments of the market. Everything is going quite smoothly and no tax cut is needed. If anything, raise them even higher. |
Setamies
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 00:26:00 -
[295] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Alisarina wrote:TL;DR version:
Smart people: PI tax is fine, POCO are fine. Learn to adapt and HTFU or GTFO of PI and go back to incursions/mining/insert other activity.
Noone on the PI production sides could give two ***** if the prices go up or down when the costs for producing do the same.
Understand this. The prices will go down again, probably to the levels they were before, and POCO owners will be able to produce even cheaper than before. But the problem we have with the changes is that it now requires a very large investment for a not-so-large and unreliable income. The investment is a bit over a billion per character for the moment. Personally I use three characters on two accounts, and need no less than ten POCOs to keep it going, for a grand total of 2,5 billion.
That is not adapting. That is paying up nicely, or moving to something else. Using the NPC POCOs will cause losses. You WILL lose money every time you export stuff from those.
|
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 01:00:00 -
[296] - Quote
Strange, I'm making millions per planet per day on all of my characters doing PI in high sec on factory planets. With you saying if you don't use POCO's you loose money it seems I'm breaking your rule.
Also if prices for lower tier materials goes up, but the next tier stays the same, then no, you are not making the same as before. In fact your making less if your making the next tier of product, and making more if your making the previous tier of goods. So the materials cost is up, so the 'cost of producing' will not go up proportionally or down.
Some people have gotten out of the market which to me personally is a good thing. It means less competition for materials and less undercutters when I go to sell.
If I missed the mark on what you ment I'm sorry. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
145
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 05:34:00 -
[297] - Quote
Alisarina wrote:Strange, I'm making millions per planet per day on all of my characters doing PI in high sec on factory planets. With you saying if you don't use POCO's you loose money it seems I'm breaking your rule.
it's because he is bad at eve and life |
bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 18:37:00 -
[298] - Quote
MAYBE hes bad or maybe the other dudes lieing like you usually do? |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
146
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 23:03:00 -
[299] - Quote
bilingi wrote:MAYBE hes bad or maybe the other dudes lieing like you usually do?
yes, by being exactly correct in all my posts in this thread it means I usually lie
good call |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
116
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 23:06:00 -
[300] - Quote
pmchem wrote:bilingi wrote:MAYBE hes bad or maybe the other dudes lieing like you usually do? yes, by being exactly correct in all my posts in this thread it means I usually lie good call
pmchem is the Good Goon Faerie. |
|
Kurumia
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 15:06:00 -
[301] - Quote
Mishatola wrote:CCP Omen wrote:You may accuse us of many things, but one thing we are not guilty of is not reading this thread!
I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income.
Regarding the taxation topic itself. I have called a meeting with CCP:s economist to go through the issues raised.
Best regards Omen Right now they ARE valid for small corporations IF they use the planets themselves, and use the POCO's to deny anybody else;s use of the planet... to prevent depletion issues. However, is that all you want? Or is your goal to make it so small corps (or any size for that matter) can provide POCOs as a service to others? If so then work needs to be done. I think I've followed all your posts and i'm still unclear on your goals in this area. edit: If you removed the planet depletion mechanic, than at least a corp would not be harmed by letting people use their POCO. (it being understood that the only reason it is there is because the corps members have colonies on the planet, given the current tax situation).
This is exactly the situation I am currently contemplating. I have about 15 PI operations all in one planetary system, and got by fine just making pickups at odd times. Now the small Corp living there have replaced all the Interbus with POCOs and have set the tax rate to something like 100%. Now I either have to relocate everything, and they lose out on what they could have made off me in taxes.... Or I turn ugly and just change all my operations to cause maximum depletions on every planet.. If I switch to a wasteful depletions mode, I can screw over the planets for them also.
On the other hand if there were no depletions, then the corp would benefit by setting a more reasonable tax rate which can only make them more Isk.
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
242
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 15:19:00 -
[302] - Quote
Are you sure they are using the planets themselves? Some people are setting up their offices at very high tax to bait fights. Can't say whether it will work, as it's not that hard to just move to a more reasonable system. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
Droxlyn
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 15:40:00 -
[303] - Quote
Kurumia wrote: This is exactly the situation I am currently contemplating. I have about 15 PI operations all in one planetary system, and got by fine just making pickups at odd times. Now the small Corp living there have replaced all the Interbus with POCOs and have set the tax rate to something like 100%. Now I either have to relocate everything, and they lose out on what they could have made off me in taxes.... Or I turn ugly and just change all my operations to cause maximum depletions on every planet.. If I switch to a wasteful depletions mode, I can screw over the planets for them also.
On the other hand if there were no depletions, then the corp would benefit by setting a more reasonable tax rate which can only make them more Isk.
Inaro is a 0.8 high-sec system 4 jumps from Jita and 5 jumps from Amarr. It has 4 barren planets and 2 temperate planets. The tax rate is 10%. It is pretty sweet for factories. |
Kurumia
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 15:40:00 -
[304] - Quote
Yes, I searched, and the planetary operations of some corp members are there. Even better it is usually pretty clear exactly which resources they have set up for extraction. Thus it almost behooves me to switch over some of my operations for extraction only right on top of their extraction. But I am not totally sure if they will get the point. |
Kurumia
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.12 15:46:00 -
[305] - Quote
Droxlyn wrote:Kurumia wrote: This is exactly the situation I am currently contemplating. I have about 15 PI operations all in one planetary system, and got by fine just making pickups at odd times. Now the small Corp living there have replaced all the Interbus with POCOs and have set the tax rate to something like 100%. Now I either have to relocate everything, and they lose out on what they could have made off me in taxes.... Or I turn ugly and just change all my operations to cause maximum depletions on every planet.. If I switch to a wasteful depletions mode, I can screw over the planets for them also.
On the other hand if there were no depletions, then the corp would benefit by setting a more reasonable tax rate which can only make them more Isk.
Inaro is a 0.8 high-sec system 4 jumps from Jita and 5 jumps from Amarr. It has 4 barren planets and 2 temperate planets. The tax rate is 10%. It is pretty sweet for factories.
I have a few high sec operations also, but when making an end product like Rocket fuel, Enriched Uranium, or Coolant, I can make approximately 4 times as much on a nice null-sec planet compared to a high sec planet. So I really need to find a way past my current bad situation. Or I am forced to find other planets somewhere else that are just as nice, but then face the same possibility of 100% taxes all over again. |
Mitchel Rei
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 05:53:00 -
[306] - Quote
Kurumia wrote:
Now the small Corp living there have replaced all the Interbus with POCOs and have set the tax rate to something like 100%.
Have you tried opening negotiations for a lower tax rate? I would propose a flat fee per month for gauranteed reasonable rate. The lease provides opportunity and the tariff provides the revenue stream. At least talk to them first.
- MR |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
135
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 06:54:00 -
[307] - Quote
Mitchel Rei wrote:Kurumia wrote:
Now the small Corp living there have replaced all the Interbus with POCOs and have set the tax rate to something like 100%.
Have you tried opening negotiations for a lower tax rate? I would propose a flat fee per month for gauranteed reasonable rate. The lease provides opportunity and the tariff provides the revenue stream. At least talk to them first. - MR
Another alternative: You know these new POCO's are destructible, right? So go destroy them and put up your own. |
Nyrak
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 16:44:00 -
[308] - Quote
Side note curiousity:
Does the owner of a POCO see the items of another user that passes through the CO or just get a tax notification when items are charged either through export or import? |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
137
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 20:46:00 -
[309] - Quote
Nyrak wrote:Side note curiousity:
Does the owner of a POCO see the items of another user that passes through the CO or just get a tax notification when items are charged either through export or import?
We spy on all your Sekrits
....Isky tax numbers only, I'm sad to say. |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
40
|
Posted - 2011.12.13 23:42:00 -
[310] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:pmchem is the Good Goon Faerie.
Does that mean he comes out of a bottle of absinthe? If so, that would explain how goons seem to have such power at CCP, what with all the devs getting hammered and coming up with new features....
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
|
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
137
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 01:00:00 -
[311] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:RubyPorto wrote:pmchem is the Good Goon Faerie. Does that mean he comes out of a bottle of absinthe? If so, that would explain how goons seem to have such power at CCP, what with all the devs getting hammered and coming up with new features....
Nah that's the Green Goon Fairy, hard to say who that is, but I'd lay odds on some of the WInoDOTers. |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
286
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 02:04:00 -
[312] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:Does that mean he comes out of a bottle of absinthe? If so, that would explain how goons seem to have such power at CCP, what with all the devs getting hammered and coming up with new features.... I love reading your tinfoil posts. They're so ... tinfoily. :3 |
LordAssasin
Tz Industries RED Citizens
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 15:28:00 -
[313] - Quote
Kurumia wrote:Mishatola wrote:CCP Omen wrote:You may accuse us of many things, but one thing we are not guilty of is not reading this thread!
I will re-iterate that we want POCOs to be valid for small corporations, we want highsec to act as a crowded/low income safety for the market as a whole while the land of opportunity is Lowsec. We want Alliances to be able to enjoy 0% tax for their own space. We want PI be a catalyst for space battles as much as it is a low effort passive income.
Regarding the taxation topic itself. I have called a meeting with CCP:s economist to go through the issues raised.
Best regards Omen Right now they ARE valid for small corporations IF they use the planets themselves, and use the POCO's to deny anybody else;s use of the planet... to prevent depletion issues. However, is that all you want? Or is your goal to make it so small corps (or any size for that matter) can provide POCOs as a service to others? If so then work needs to be done. I think I've followed all your posts and i'm still unclear on your goals in this area. edit: If you removed the planet depletion mechanic, than at least a corp would not be harmed by letting people use their POCO. (it being understood that the only reason it is there is because the corps members have colonies on the planet, given the current tax situation). This is exactly the situation I am currently contemplating. I have about 15 PI operations all in one planetary system, and got by fine just making pickups at odd times. Now the small Corp living there have replaced all the Interbus with POCOs and have set the tax rate to something like 100%. Now I either have to relocate everything, and they lose out on what they could have made off me in taxes.... Or I turn ugly and just change all my operations to cause maximum depletions on every planet.. If I switch to a wasteful depletions mode, I can screw over the planets for them also. On the other hand if there were no depletions, then the corp would benefit by setting a more reasonable tax rate which can only make them more Isk. I dont know if one person even with 3 chars can deplete a plannet, i've myself whached how rates in the same place go down, well it got from 60% full link to 40 in 6 month. and i think it gets old not making isk and just going destructive...plus is not lucrative...i do not know how it will be. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
158
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 16:47:00 -
[314] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:RubyPorto wrote:pmchem is the Good Goon Faerie. Does that mean he comes out of a bottle of absinthe? If so, that would explain how goons seem to have such power at CCP, what with all the devs getting hammered and coming up with new features....
I did drink a 5-year old bottle of absinthe when I finished my PhD. So in a sense, that's true. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
145
|
Posted - 2011.12.14 17:58:00 -
[315] - Quote
pmchem wrote: I did drink a 5-year old bottle of absinthe when I finished my PhD. So in a sense, that's true.
Gratz Doctah |
Kurumia
EVE University Ivy League
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 14:25:00 -
[316] - Quote
deleted |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
159
|
Posted - 2011.12.16 19:18:00 -
[317] - Quote
I kind of miss the controversy and panic of 8 pages ago.
GSF is taxing its POCOs to pay for their install and defense and things are working quite well so far. Any special news from highsec or lowsec? |
Lord Zim
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
304
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Posted - 2011.12.16 22:53:00 -
[318] - Quote
I think they've all quit, leaving us to our elevated profits. vOv |
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
40
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Posted - 2011.12.16 23:31:00 -
[319] - Quote
Actually ToR has opened it's servers for people who pre-ordered. Even if they don't unsub, I suspect Eve's servers will be less busy for a month or two.
Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium |
Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
14
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Posted - 2011.12.17 03:32:00 -
[320] - Quote
pmchem wrote:I kind of miss the controversy and panic of 8 pages ago.
GSF is taxing its POCOs to pay for their install and defense and things are working quite well so far. Any special news from highsec or lowsec?
Generally the tax rate for the few Low Sec PCO' s is the same as High Sec , 10%. So there is no reason to move from High Sec to Low Sec. The few 1% Tax PCO's are just gank bait. The few Low Sec PI users have either adjusted thier prices or moved back to High Sec when the PCO owner locks them out.
The next step will be for the Null Alliance PCO owners to flood the market with with cheap PI goods so it will no longer be cost effective to do PI even in High. |
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bilingi
Ghosts of the Storm
13
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Posted - 2011.12.17 06:10:00 -
[321] - Quote
hahah actually theres about 200 of us from eve On Stwor right now... and thats just people i know from various corps. Probably wont unsub as i have like 6 months left but theres no real reason to log on to eve presently. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
253
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Posted - 2011.12.17 12:16:00 -
[322] - Quote
pmchem wrote:I kind of miss the controversy and panic of 8 pages ago.
GSF is taxing its POCOs to pay for their install and defense and things are working quite well so far. Any special news from highsec or lowsec? So far, they've been a good driver of conflict in lowsec. Dreads have died reinforcing them, carriers have died repairing them, and random people completely unrelated to attackers or defenders have shown up for timers expecting fights and gotten them.
Most lowsec POCOs are taxed at 8-10%, so the motivation to go to lowsec is the same as it was pre-patch: more resources per planet. A few are taxed at very high levels to bait fights, but I'm not sure that's actually working.
What I have noticed in the last week or so is a big increase in the number of people using lowsec POCOs, so profitability is more predictable now. Still, the ROI is a bit too long, and the income too low, and most interbus COs are still in place.
If that trend continues, the devs might want to lower resource depletion drastically, so more people can use the same planet and so the income becomes more concentrated on a few POCOs. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
159
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Posted - 2011.12.18 20:29:00 -
[323] - Quote
I like that people unrelated to the POCO reinforcement or defense are just showing up for fights. It's like a mini PVP arena. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
254
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Posted - 2011.12.18 23:34:00 -
[324] - Quote
The timer is visible to anyone who has POCOs on brackets and is in system. In busy systems, that's a lot of people who know of a time and place a fight might go down. Makes me wonder whether making towers (and their timers) visible system wide would be a good idea. What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644 |
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