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Goa Chai
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
92
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Posted - 2014.04.06 16:41:00 -
[61] - Quote
Rainus Max wrote:I don't care what the situation is but supporting what Toba and Noir did is wrong and if you support the actions of one you support the actions of the other. In both cases they targeted civilians and if you really want to stoop to that level I'm sure Sansha or the Blood Raiders would happily take you in.
Ha! Civilians... I kill several thousand civilians before I eat my breakfast, which is often organic steak and fresh Long-Limb Roes because I'm paid very well to do what I do. And no the irony of being trained to be a pseudo-immortal mass murderer by a government that exalts freedom and individual liberties is not lost on me, I just don't care because I enjoy destroying authorized installations and seeing what shakes out.
I support the actions of Admiral Tovil-Toba because he was willing to do anything and everything to ensure the survival of his people. While as a capsuleer holding myself to such an altruistic standard is purely voluntary it is never the less a quality I greatly respect. As for Admiral Alexander Noir, all I can say is history shows that his words and actions on that fateful day were very unlike the person he was known to be through out his long and exemplary career with the Federation Navy. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
4512
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Posted - 2014.04.06 17:29:00 -
[62] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I forget which of the philosophers once said that "Better an honest war than a dishonest peace." Whoever he was, he was wrong. There is no such thing as a good war or a bad peace. Mane 614
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Goa Chai
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
92
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Posted - 2014.04.06 17:45:00 -
[63] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I forget which of the philosophers once said that "Better an honest war than a dishonest peace." Whoever he was, he was wrong. There is no such thing as a good war or a bad peace. Since the dawn of humanity war has been a common, consistant, and often romanticized element of the human experience, but for all the glory to be found in waging war against one's enemies, their was one critical problem, the high risk of one's own death/defeat and an end to one's ability to continue to wage war, pillage, and destroy.
We are humanity's solution to that problem, how can their ever be peace while we exist? . |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
137
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Posted - 2014.04.06 18:34:00 -
[64] - Quote
Goa Chai wrote:We are humanity's solution to that problem, how can their ever be peace while we exist? . I believe it involves all of us dying in unison when CONCORD presses the "off" button. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3450
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Posted - 2014.04.06 18:34:00 -
[65] - Quote
Rainus Max wrote:Katrina Oniseki wrote:Rainus Max wrote: Lets not forget two small facts here either, like it or not the Caldari abandoned the planet in favour of New Caldari Prime
Your understanding of history is critically flawed. So the State didn't mass evac its population and move its capital to New Caldari? The statement does removal all historical context from the events but essentially the State left the planet willingly or not.
Yes, they did. Under fire. After a bombardment and a blockade. Let's put that context back in there, shall we? "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
6152
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Posted - 2014.04.06 19:23:00 -
[66] - Quote
What Rainus Max fails to realize with his argument is this: if the Caldari people were to displace the Gallente from Gallente Prime under threat of orbital bombardment and invasion, then the Gallente people would have no grounds for reclamation of their homeworld because-- they left it?
Really, this is the might-makes-right argument taken to its furthest extreme.
I doubt he'd in fact endorse it if it didn't favor his nationalist ideals. Priano Trans-Stellar: elegant solutions for the State's needs. |
Rainus Max
Fusion Enterprises Ltd Brothers of Tangra
43
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Posted - 2014.04.06 20:27:00 -
[67] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:What Rainus Max fails to realize with his argument is this: if the Caldari people were to displace the Gallente from Gallente Prime under threat of orbital bombardment and invasion, then the Gallente people would have no grounds for reclamation of their homeworld because-- they left it?
Really, this is the might-makes-right argument taken to its furthest extreme.
I doubt he'd in fact endorse it if it didn't favor his nationalist ideals.
Let's actually go back and read what I said.
Firstly I responded to the comment that the current arrangement on Caldari Prime is a Federation occupation. It isn't, its a shared administration of the planet between the Federation and the State as both sides have population and history on this world.
Secondly, I've never said that the Federation isn't responsible for the need to evacuate, I've merely said the State withdrew from the planet. Its an extremely basic and raw statement I grant you but it is factually correct. You also forgot to mention the Gallente citizens on Caldari Prime who were mass-murdered, granted it might have been the odd extremist, but if that was reversed would you stand idly by? The whole saga of the first Gallente - Caldari war is a dark chapter in both our histories but as I have said neither side are guilt free and I dont deny that.
Thirdly, the Caldari can have a claim on their homeworld and again I've never said you can't. I believe the present situation is the best solution presented so far to give both sides a chance at peace. Either side having full control is just going to plunge both sides into war again.
To be honest this will never end until both sides realise they are just as much to blame as the other and that compromise is the best anyone is every going to achieve. |
Goa Chai
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
93
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Posted - 2014.04.06 21:09:00 -
[68] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:Goa Chai wrote:We are humanity's solution to that problem, how can their ever be peace while we exist? . I believe it involves all of us dying in unison when CONCORD presses the "off" button. What makes you think their is some master control for every clone bay in New Eden, especially the ones in null security much less in w-space? When humanity created the hydrastatic capsule and the capsuleer they paved the way for their own demise. |
James Syagrius
Fire In The NIght
862
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Posted - 2014.04.06 21:53:00 -
[69] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Ishukone is negotiating with an aggressive foreign power towards unknown ends. Aggressive!
Well now that is hurtful Pieter.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:This makes people nervous. Tell me about it. ~smirks~
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You might think you like Ishukone more because of the tenor of their PR, but never forget that first, last and always they are a Caldari Okusaiken. They might look more like you than we do, but they are not you. Now see this is why I like you Pieter.
You're observant, suspicious and always notice the important bits.
I comment your recommendation to my Federal compatriots, who would do well to remember this. GÇ£Here also are the heralds of his praise."
-á
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Pieter Tuulinen
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3452
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Posted - 2014.04.06 22:10:00 -
[70] - Quote
Goa Chai wrote:Bryen Verrisai wrote:Goa Chai wrote:We are humanity's solution to that problem, how can their ever be peace while we exist? . I believe it involves all of us dying in unison when CONCORD presses the "off" button. What makes you think their is some master control for every clone bay in New Eden, especially the ones in null security much less in w-space? When humanity created the hydrastatic capsule and the capsuleer they paved the way for their own demise.
Do you think the nullsec powers would pay rent to Concord if they didn't have to.
I would be very unsurprised if there wasn't an offswitch that cut the transmissions between the hydrostatic pod and the cloning bays, as well as an off-switch for the bays themselves. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3490
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Posted - 2014.04.07 02:03:00 -
[71] - Quote
even if there isn't one built into the clones, there's certainly a whole host of overrides built into our ships, doing things like...
Stopping us from launching bombs in highsec Restricting us from deploying bubbles in high- or lowsec Preventing us from anchoring POS towers where we are not welcome completely neutralizing our ships should we attract a DED response in highsec
An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
973
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Posted - 2014.04.07 05:47:00 -
[72] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Tuulinen, haven't you yourself lamented how the others of the big eight forced Ishukone into the cold? The black sheep is of your making, and you've said as much before. Now, after ostracizing Ishukone for its rejection of the Provists, you use that same mistrust to justify investigations into Ishukone's dealings.
Do you really want to push Ishukone further away? Priano-haani, look, nobody ostracized Ishukone except Ishukone itself.
Provists were patriotic men and women from ALL Corporations of the State, bound together to bring back glory of the Caldari. It was Ishukone decision to stand away from them, and, thus from all other Corporations.
And now Ishukone pushes itself away, by holding hand of our greatest enemy.
Did we push Ishukone towards Federation? Any other corporation told them to do so?..
NO.
It was Ishukone's decision, not Caldari. And pay for this must Ishukone, but not other megacorps. Don't relay misdeeds of an ill head to healthy ones. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
973
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Posted - 2014.04.07 05:49:00 -
[73] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:Caldari Liberals serve the Caldari. Caldari patriots serve only their corporation. With the best will in the world, you do not understand either the Caldari nor the Patriot bloc. And with this, I agree fully. Jaijii must know their place. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
973
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Posted - 2014.04.07 06:07:00 -
[74] - Quote
Rainus Max wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Valerie Valate wrote:Why are the State and Federation still at war, hmmmmmm?
Federation still occupies almost half of our homeworld. Actually the Federation administers less than half the planet, Mordu's Legion police it. Still, they are occupants on our land, and must be purged out with fire.
Rainus Max wrote: Lets not forget two small facts here either, like it or not the Caldari abandoned the planet in favour of New Caldari Prime and secondly there is a significant Gallente population living on the planet. Both sides have tried sole control of the planet and failed and so far this latest attempt seems to be working.
I repeat after Oniseki-haani. Your understanding of history is critically flawed.
Rainus Max wrote: Highlander might have been a terrible loss of life on both sides but given that Heth was a few neurons short of a synapse especially in the last few months of his reign I think the Federation did the right thing in the end.
Highlander was a crime against humanity. And your stupid insults of our greatest hero Tibus Heth are not acceptable. Your place is to scrub decks of salvaging frigate, gallentean disrespectful scum.
Soon Caldari Navy will break into your homes and will stomp subhumans like you into dirt. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
4514
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Posted - 2014.04.07 07:28:00 -
[75] - Quote
You sure do talk a lot for a coward too scared to back up her words with actions. Mane 614
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Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
183
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Posted - 2014.04.07 10:44:00 -
[76] - Quote
I remain cautiously hopefully that dealings between The Federal Senate and The Ishukone Corporation will prove fruitful towards a more peaceful future.
However on this matter I feel I must voice my agreement with the CEP and their publicly announced actions on this matter. I find nothing overtly threatening in the other Mega Corporations intent to investigate the dealings of one of their own, and I hope that Isukone and their supporters will be as transparent and forthcoming as possible.
In the event that the CEP discovers no wrong doings, then Mr. Reppola and Ishukone as a whole will likely garner a positive reputation which could in turn bring more moderates on both sides of the Federation / State conflict to the diplomacy table.
Understandably the possibility exists, there may be some in the Caldari State with an agenda against Reppola who may wish to smear his name while sabotaging efforts between Isukone and The Senate. As such it is a risk I feel must be taken, and we can only await the outcome. |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
138
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Posted - 2014.04.07 13:16:00 -
[77] - Quote
It's true, we really don't have anything to lose with this investigation. I might even go so far as to say that whichever Federal legislator pushed for the senate to engage Ishukone as closely as it has is somewhat of a genius.
If the investigation finds nothing then Ishukone's enemies will be discredited and embarrassed, strengthening the corporation's own position within the State and marginalizing entities that would otherwise interfere with Ishukone/Federation negotiations. If, on the other hand, Ishukone is actually collaborating with the Federation (to whatever degree) that will bring about a whole new period of infighting for the State, leaving the Federation in a stronger position over it. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
983
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Posted - 2014.04.07 13:20:00 -
[78] - Quote
Or we just execute corrupted Ishukone management, reincorporate them into the State... And kick out fat ugly gallentean occupants from our homeworld. And maybe even burn down some gallentean planets, so they won't have ideas of coming back. Starting with Gallente Prime and some planets in Villore can be a good idea. |
Anja Suorsa
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
273
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Posted - 2014.04.07 13:20:00 -
[79] - Quote
Quite astute all around, Msr Vorpalstar.
I will simply add that any agenda held against Mens Reppola is largely meaningless in the context of this investigation. The CEP is not run by or for the CEOs of Lai Dai and Kaalakiota, but the CEOs of all Caldari Okusaiken. Their peers on the panel will ensure neutrality. That's the whole point of it. |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3493
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Posted - 2014.04.07 13:41:00 -
[80] - Quote
One hopes, yes. If the Practical bloc decide that they'd rather not help the Patriots set a precedent of CEP investigations every time a megacorporate executive so much as shakes hands with a senator, it would be very encouraging. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate Heiian Conglomerate
131
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:20:00 -
[81] - Quote
There are more ways to fight a war than with guns and giant ships, Diana. |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3493
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:29:00 -
[82] - Quote
Not just more ways, but better ones. The very oldest texts we have on strategy and warfare express the opinion that wars are best won without having to resort to the crude business of actual fighting, and I'm inclined to agree with them. Violence is what you resort to in order to attain the objective, not the objective itself. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Pieter Tuulinen
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3457
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:34:00 -
[83] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:One hopes, yes. If the Practical bloc decide that they'd rather not help the Patriots set a precedent of CEP inquisitions every time a megacorporate executive so much as shakes hands with a senator, it would be very encouraging.
Never mind the Practical bloc, I find it interesting that Wiyrkomi has kept itself pretty much solidly out of the spotlight during this period. "You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions." "Only a killer would know that..." |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3493
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Posted - 2014.04.07 14:40:00 -
[84] - Quote
Good point, and my apologies to them for ignoring them. Throw in Hyasyoda and I really don't have an excuse for falling into that old trap of looking at the loudmouth in the foreground rather than the quiet one in the back. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
985
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:06:00 -
[85] - Quote
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:There are more ways to fight a war than with guns and giant ships, Diana. With many small ships? |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3493
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:13:00 -
[86] - Quote
Bribery, propaganda, intimidation, espionage, surveillance and SigInt all spring to mind, too. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
986
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:22:00 -
[87] - Quote
Can we just kill them instead?.. |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox
3493
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:34:00 -
[88] - Quote
Bribery is the art of getting your soldiers to fight for you. Propaganda is the art of getting their civilians to work for you. Intimidation is the art of convincing them not to fight you, thereby preserving your soldiers and materiel from needless attrition. Espionage is the art of detecting what they're about to do so you can stop them. Surveillance is the art of seeing where they are so you can outmaneouver them. SigInt is the art of knowing what they're thinking, so you can anticipate them. Deception is the art of falsifying their senses, so you can control them.
War is the art of winning: The art of killing has a different name.
If the victor can't profit in the aftermath, then they didn't win. Anybody can nuke a world until the ash glows at night, but what's the point if nobody could live there afterwards? An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Claudia Osyn
Mythic Security Service
285
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Posted - 2014.04.07 16:50:00 -
[89] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Can we just kill them instead?.. No. That would be costly and counter productive. The lack of money is the root of all evil. |
Agiri Falken
State War Academy Caldari State
154
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Posted - 2014.04.07 19:25:00 -
[90] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Bribery is the art of getting their soldiers to fight for you. Propaganda is the art of getting their civilians to work for you. Intimidation is the art of convincing them not to fight you, thereby preserving your soldiers and materiel from needless attrition. Espionage is the art of detecting what they're about to do so you can stop them. Surveillance is the art of seeing where they are so you can outmaneouver them. SigInt is the art of knowing what they're thinking, so you can anticipate them. Deception is the art of falsifying their senses, so you can control them.
War is the art of winning: The art of killing has a different name.
If the victor can't profit in the aftermath, then they didn't win. Anybody can nuke a world until the ash glows at night, but what's the point if nobody could live there afterwards? Good summation of strategic thinking as a whole really. Focusing on singular battles might win fights, focusing on all aspects of warfare will keep you from having to expend men and materiel in them to start with. |
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