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Frost Mistress
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 07:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
What are the isk sinks in the game? Seems to me that there should be piles and piles of ISK by now with no real sink. At least none I see.
Ships get blown up yes, but the ships where sold by players so while the ships owner lost ISK, ISK was not removed from the game. Menerials are mined and sold by players with litle sinks minus some brooker fees and usage fees. Where does all this cahs go? Is it that a few over eager traders and manufactures are sitting on trillions and trillions of ISK? That one day they can introduce to the market and screw all of EvEs economy? Ssay give every player on 1 trill is and watch T1 Frigates start going for 50 Mil a pop.
Just wondering where the balance is with isk sinks and how the mony that comes in to EvE leaves EvE. Don't let my frosty appearance and cold attitude fool you.Once you get to know me you'll find I'm a complete and total *****-á |
Goodgodyourface
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 07:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Frost Mistress wrote:What are the isk sinks in the game? Seems to me that there should be piles and piles of ISK by now with no real sink. At least none I see.
Ships get blown up yes, but the ships where sold by players so while the ships owner lost ISK, ISK was not removed from the game. Menerials are mined and sold by players with litle sinks minus some brooker fees and usage fees. Where does all this cahs go? Is it that a few over eager traders and manufactures are sitting on trillions and trillions of ISK? That one day they can introduce to the market and screw all of EvEs economy? Ssay give every player on 1 trill is and watch T1 Frigates start going for 50 Mil a pop.
Just wondering where the balance is with isk sinks and how the mony that comes in to EvE leaves EvE.
Example with random numbers, don't freak out:
1.) Player buys battleship for 100mil ISK. Insures for full coverage. 2.) Player buys 50mil ISK in modules. 3.) Ship gets a.) Killed by rats, wreck out in the middle of nowhere b.) Killed by players, some loot is recovered and maybe salvaging is done, but some stuff is inevitably lost 4.) Player gets ISK back for ship, but loses a.) 50mil ISK in modules (- whatever was recovered, if anything) b.) However much the implants in their head was worth c.) Any ammo, cargo, etc. that was in the ship and not looted
That's where the money goes. Implants, and loot lost in wreckage. |
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 08:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
To be honest, most of what is listed there is not the destruction of isk but the destruction of minerals.
Isk sinks are any time you pay, with isk, an NPC corp for any good or service. So, sales tax, brokers fees, LP store purchases, T1 BPO purchases, office rental fees, insurance paid for but not claimed upon etc.
Just wondering where the balance is with isk sinks and how the mony that comes in to EvE leaves EvE.
That one is trickier, I guess this will always only ever be known (if it is) by CCP. My only sure fire hunch is that more money must be coming into eve than leaving but the ratio would be a complete guess. |
Lexmana
Imperial Stout
56
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 08:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
If I remember correctly is station services (repair, broker fees, manufacturing etc) the biggest ISK sink. Then we have NPC corp taxes and everything sold by NPC orders (skill books, BPOs) and I believe a few others. To few and to little.
We need more ISK sinks. |
Goodgodyourface
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 08:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tekota wrote:To be honest, most of what is listed there is not the destruction of isk but the destruction of minerals.
Isk sinks are any time you pay, with isk, an NPC corp for any good or service. So, sales tax, brokers fees, LP store purchases, T1 BPO purchases, office rental fees, insurance paid for but not claimed upon etc.
Just wondering where the balance is with isk sinks and how the mony that comes in to EvE leaves EvE.
That one is trickier, I guess this will always only ever be known (if it is) by CCP. My only sure fire hunch is that more money must be coming into eve than leaving but the ratio would be a complete guess.
It's still disappearing ISK, since we don't all barter... someone paid ISK for that ore/minerals, and while the chain may be a long one, it still comes down to how much is floating on the market or in peoples' wallets in liquid assets. |
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 08:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Goodgodyourface wrote:
It's still disappearing ISK, since we don't all barter... someone paid ISK for that ore/minerals, and while the chain may be a long one, it still comes down to how much is floating on the market or in peoples' wallets in liquid assets.
It's isk disappearing from your wallet for sure - but it's isk going into someone elses wallet (eg a miner). Now there's some sales tax applied to that transaction sure (which is an isk sink) but otherwise you're merely shuffling isk from one player to another. |
Goodgodyourface
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 08:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tekota wrote:Goodgodyourface wrote:
It's still disappearing ISK, since we don't all barter... someone paid ISK for that ore/minerals, and while the chain may be a long one, it still comes down to how much is floating on the market or in peoples' wallets in liquid assets.
It's isk disappearing from your wallet for sure - but it's isk going into someone elses wallet (eg a miner). Now there's some sales tax applied to that transaction sure (which is an isk sink) but otherwise you're merely shuffling isk from one player to another.
All right, my bad. I'll admit my ignorance on this one. |
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 09:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
It is a common misconception not only in Eve but in the world in general. Destruction of resources does not fight inflation. It actually increases it if you think about it. A bunch of people buy ships to get their pew-pew on. their isk ends up in different wallets yet remains in the general economy. They destroy some of their own and others resources. The same isk (plus a little extra from insurance) is still on the market. There are just less resources (the ships and modules destroyed) for that isk to be spent on. Linky: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window
The up side as far as isk sinks go is that the new demand for ships and modules becomes demand for BPOs and LP items which are isk sinks as they are purchased from NPCs. The oldmyth that war is good for the economy (out in the real world where there are not infinite supplies of both labor and goods mines go dry, those killed in battle do not respawn in pods) is just supply and demand. Wars consume both materials and manpower making both scarse so the demand for both rises. |
Frost Mistress
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 09:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yes that is what I ment ISK leaving not just going to another player. Hmmm so most be the later there are some sitting on piles and piles of ISK. The Taxes and the like don't zap enough, as whoever trades needs to make up the differance to make profit so More rats will be killed to generate more isk so it never will.
I guess getting killed by rats is the biggest one. Unclaimed insurance yes but I think as a whole insurance is an isk generator rather than a sink. Maybe new players that bought large amounts of isk with PLEX rage quiting and thus taking unspent ISK with them?
Oh well just something I have been wondering about. Don't let my frosty appearance and cold attitude fool you.Once you get to know me you'll find I'm a complete and total *****-á |
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 10:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Not so sure sales/broker taxes are as insignificant as you may think.
Typical daily volume of Tritanium in Jita is 30 billion units - multiply by 3.3 and we get an isk volume of 99 billion isk. Finger in the air guess of typical tax revenue being 1% (0.5% sales tax and c. 0.5% brokers fees - this is probably a lowball guess) and we see just under 1 billion isk removed every day just on Trit sales and just in Jita.
Use the same guestimation on PLEX and we see a 2500 daily volume at c.430m apiece for an isk volume of over 1 trillion isk per day - 1% of this being 10 billion isk.
So sales of just Trit and Plex, just in Jita, are potentially removing around 11b of isk from the economy every day.
As already noted above, rats will generally (beyond, eg. LP store bought faction mods) be destroying materials rather than isk but I agree that insurance is going to be a net faucet.
Players quitting with isk in their wallet is, as you say, perhaps the only isk "sink" in that it holds the potential for being realised later on wheras other things we refer to as isk "sinks" are more isk shredders. |
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Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers Black Thorne Alliance
50
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 11:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
According to the last QEN (Q4 2010 - would be nice to have a new one) the top ISK sinks in the game are as follows:
1) Skillbooks 2) BPOs 3) LP Stores (you pay ISK for certain items in LP stores) 4) Transaction Tax 5) Brokers Fee
Hope it helps. It is interesting that a lot of this is driven by the caps/supercaps economy as both the skillbooks and the blueprints needed for that are fairly expensive. |
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 11:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
That is interesting, I'd forgotten about that (and concur, would be nice to see QEN, but apparently unlikely tor return). Just been re-reading; a lot of the skill book purchases in that quarter were put down to the learning skill removals (and people buying new skills with the released SP) and a lot of the BPO purchases were Noctis - 2 trillion isk spent on Noctis prints in one month!
I would guess that at the very least we can quadruple that figure come the release of the tier 3 BC prints. |
AureoLion
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 12:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
Remember that you don't need the isk to be stable, you merely need the ISK influx to be on par to the goods influx. If 50b (completely made up number) are mined / moon mined / LP stored / dropped / manufactured / PI'd / whatever creates goods a day, you also need 50b isk being created a day (through bounties, insurance, more bounties, mission rewards, did i mention bounties?) |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
135
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 15:00:00 -
[14] - Quote
Examples of ISK Sinks: * Office rental fee. * Corp and alliance creation fee. * Sovereignty payments. * Buying anything from NPC: skill books, BPO, reactions, PI command centers, etc. * PI import / export taxes. * Broker fees. * Transaction taxes. * Contract fee. * CSPA fees. * Customs penalties. * Clone upgrades. * Repair costs. * Insurance fees. * Wardecs.
Examples of ISK Faucets: * Mission rewards. * Insurance payouts. * Selling anything to NPC: Sleeper tags, faction tags, DNA, etc. * New characters (5000 ISK?). |
Kara Books
Hedion University Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 16:42:00 -
[15] - Quote
hmm...
---Number1 ISK SInk in the game the destruction of faction goods in the game, some examples:
+6 implants run a Cool 250 mill iskies. Full implant sets run from 150M for low and close to 1000 mil for some highgrade sets, Le'Rich get podded to you know.
+3, +4 and +5 implants cost a bit to buy out from NPC stations! all other implants also cost ISK
The list goes on and on for all the other faction stuff like Navy heatsinks etc etc...
---Ship insurance ---loss of loot to rats ---NPC sold goods ---Broker fee's & sales taxes ---POSIBLY---Banned bot accounts (usually with epic heaps of ISK) ---Abandoned accounts.
---- I guess there is more, but I gotta run. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 17:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
Far and away the largest "sink" is people quitting the game with billions of isk in their inactive accounts.
There was a developer post on this.. can't link it right now.
People can use semantics to argue whether or not the isk is really gone because it's still there on innactive accounts...
...they'd be right if you defined sink in one way, wrong if you defined it another way.
Even if you don't want to use the word "sink" people retiring with isk in their wallets certainly is a huge factor in the amount of isk in circulation at any given time and without that large portion of isk being made inactive the amount of bounties being paid out without nearly as many NPC isk sinks would create an inflation like nothing we've seen to date. |
Kara Books
Hedion University Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 18:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:Far and away the largest "sink" is people quitting the game with billions of isk in their inactive accounts.
There was a developer post on this.. can't link it right now.
People can use semantics to argue whether or not the isk is really gone because it's still there on innactive accounts...
...they'd be right if you defined sink in one way, wrong if you defined it another way.
Even if you don't want to use the word "sink" people retiring with isk in their wallets certainly is a huge factor in the amount of isk in circulation at any given time and without that large portion of isk being made inactive the amount of bounties being paid out without nearly as many NPC isk sinks would create an inflation like nothing we've seen to date.
Reinforcing your idea, some of these people might have quite due to passing away. |
yumike
Eve of Madness
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.14 18:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kara Books wrote: +6 implants run a Cool 250 mill iskies. Full implant sets run from 150M for low and close to 1000 mil for some highgrade sets, Le'Rich get podded to you know.
That is not an isk sink, That's an item desctruction and you likely gave that isk to another player to purchase said item. ISK sink's are things like skill books where all the money is given to an npc and destroyed. Isk sink's are NOT giving it to another player, that is merely a transfer. |
Frost Mistress
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
yumike wrote:Kara Books wrote: +6 implants run a Cool 250 mill iskies. Full implant sets run from 150M for low and close to 1000 mil for some highgrade sets, Le'Rich get podded to you know.
That is not an isk sink, That's an item desctruction and you likely gave that isk to another player to purchase said item. ISK sink's are things like skill books where all the money is given to an npc and destroyed. Isk sink's are NOT giving it to another player, that is merely a transfer.
I think the refrance was to the implans bought through LP stores which run high price tags as well. These are a very common buys as you can normally fill a buy order right away and make a large profit. I might even say it is the most common way to turn LP into quick isk> (Ammo might bet this out but you normally have to make a sell order as buy orders will net you a loss most of the time)
Don't let my frosty appearance and cold attitude fool you.Once you get to know me you'll find I'm a complete and total *****-á |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
357
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Short rule of thumb:
Faucet: ISK flows from an NPC wallet into your wallet Sink: ISK flows from your wallet into an NPC wallet
(Anything else, such as inter-player trading is neither a sink nor a faucet, other then fees/taxes on the transaction.) |
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yumike
Eve of Madness
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
Frost Mistress wrote:yumike wrote:Kara Books wrote: +6 implants run a Cool 250 mill iskies. Full implant sets run from 150M for low and close to 1000 mil for some highgrade sets, Le'Rich get podded to you know.
That is not an isk sink, That's an item desctruction and you likely gave that isk to another player to purchase said item. ISK sink's are things like skill books where all the money is given to an npc and destroyed. Isk sink's are NOT giving it to another player, that is merely a transfer. I think the refrance was to the implans bought through LP stores which run high price tags as well. These are a very common buys as you can normally fill a buy order right away and make a large profit. I might even say it is the most common way to turn LP into quick isk> (Ammo might bet this out but you normally have to make a sell order as buy orders will net you a loss most of the time)
Then i'm even more confused, if memory serves none of the implants are more then 15mil isk when dumped into LP store, Which granted is a sink but hardly a considerable one which the poster claims |
Kara Books
Hedion University Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
yumike wrote:Frost Mistress wrote:yumike wrote:Kara Books wrote: +6 implants run a Cool 250 mill iskies. Full implant sets run from 150M for low and close to 1000 mil for some highgrade sets, Le'Rich get podded to you know.
That is not an isk sink, That's an item desctruction and you likely gave that isk to another player to purchase said item. ISK sink's are things like skill books where all the money is given to an npc and destroyed. Isk sink's are NOT giving it to another player, that is merely a transfer. I think the refrance was to the implans bought through LP stores which run high price tags as well. These are a very common buys as you can normally fill a buy order right away and make a large profit. I might even say it is the most common way to turn LP into quick isk> (Ammo might bet this out but you normally have to make a sell order as buy orders will net you a loss most of the time) Then i'm even more confused, if memory serves none of the implants are more then 15mil isk when dumped into LP store, Which granted is a sink but hardly a considerable one which the poster claims
Every single character in this game WILL eventually use some form or shape of an implant.
If I go do some Amattar navy missions, and accumulate 1 billion Loyalty points AND 1 billion ISK at the same time:
I Accumulated 1 billion ISK from a faucet (correct?)
If I go and TURN those Loyalty Points, into Items, like, Implants for example, then I will have to turn in 1 isk for every LP point that I spend. a +5 implant runs about 65 million Loyalty points and 65 Million ISK.
So, DISAPPEARS into THIN AIR, both 65M isk and 65M loyalty points at the same time.
For every LP turned in the same amount of ISK you "Turn in"
Then you go Sell this implant on the market to people who maybe Mined minerals, sold the minerals and used the ISK to buy the implant. Or some one who bought a PLEX from CCP and sold it on the market then used the ISK from the sale to buy the implant.
I tried my best to clear it up. |
Frost Mistress
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 05:28:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:yumike wrote:Frost Mistress wrote:yumike wrote:Kara Books wrote: +6 implants run a Cool 250 mill iskies. Full implant sets run from 150M for low and close to 1000 mil for some highgrade sets, Le'Rich get podded to you know.
That is not an isk sink, That's an item desctruction and you likely gave that isk to another player to purchase said item. ISK sink's are things like skill books where all the money is given to an npc and destroyed. Isk sink's are NOT giving it to another player, that is merely a transfer. I think the refrance was to the implans bought through LP stores which run high price tags as well. These are a very common buys as you can normally fill a buy order right away and make a large profit. I might even say it is the most common way to turn LP into quick isk> (Ammo might bet this out but you normally have to make a sell order as buy orders will net you a loss most of the time) Then i'm even more confused, if memory serves none of the implants are more then 15mil isk when dumped into LP store, Which granted is a sink but hardly a considerable one which the poster claims Every single character in this game WILL eventually use some form or shape of an implant. If I go do some Amattar navy missions, and accumulate 1 billion Loyalty points AND 1 billion ISK at the same time: I Accumulated 1 billion ISK from a faucet (correct?) If I go and TURN those Loyalty Points, into Items, like, Implants for example, then I will have to turn in 1 isk for every LP point that I spend. a +5 implant runs about 65 million Loyalty points and 65 Million ISK. So, DISAPPEARS into THIN AIR, both 65M isk and 65M loyalty points at the same time. For every LP turned in the same amount of ISK you "Turn in"
Then you go Sell this implant on the market to people who maybe Mined minerals, sold the minerals and used the ISK to buy the implant. Or some one who bought a PLEX from CCP and sold it on the market then used the ISK from the sale to buy the implant. I tried my best to clear it up.
Yes that is how I understood the person that mentioned implants being a sink. Just from the LP store cost not selling to players which is just a transfer of isk from player to player.
Don't let my frosty appearance and cold attitude fool you.Once you get to know me you'll find I'm a complete and total *****-á |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 08:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:
If I go and TURN those Loyalty Points, into Items, like, Implants for example, then I will have to turn in 1 isk for every LP point that I spend.
For implants, it's typically 1,000 isk for each LP. But yes, this is a fair sized isk sink. |
David Forge
Forge Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 23:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
Diomedes Calypso wrote:Far and away the largest "sink" is people quitting the game with billions of isk in their inactive accounts.
There was a developer post on this.. can't link it right now.
I'm sorry, could somebody link this? I'm not having much luck searching for it but I would like to read it. Thanks for your trouble. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
191
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 22:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
There really needs to be a wiki page about this with explanation and examples. A day does not pass in MD without someone claiming that them losing their faction fitted Machariel is an ISK sink. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
207
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 06:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Goodgodyourface wrote:Frost Mistress wrote:What are the isk sinks in the game? Seems to me that there should be piles and piles of ISK by now with no real sink. At least none I see.
Ships get blown up yes, but the ships where sold by players so while the ships owner lost ISK, ISK was not removed from the game. Menerials are mined and sold by players with litle sinks minus some brooker fees and usage fees. Where does all this cahs go? Is it that a few over eager traders and manufactures are sitting on trillions and trillions of ISK? That one day they can introduce to the market and screw all of EvEs economy? Ssay give every player on 1 trill is and watch T1 Frigates start going for 50 Mil a pop.
Just wondering where the balance is with isk sinks and how the mony that comes in to EvE leaves EvE. Example with random numbers, don't freak out: 1.) Player buys battleship for 100mil ISK. Insures for full coverage. 2.) Player buys 50mil ISK in modules. 3.) Ship gets a.) Killed by rats, wreck out in the middle of nowhere b.) Killed by players, some loot is recovered and maybe salvaging is done, but some stuff is inevitably lost 4.) Player gets ISK back for ship, but loses a.) 50mil ISK in modules (- whatever was recovered, if anything) b.) However much the implants in their head was worth c.) Any ammo, cargo, etc. that was in the ship and not looted That's where the money goes. Implants, and loot lost in wreckage.
Absolute rubbish - do not listen to this person.
ISK appears in the game via rat bounties, mission rewards, trade purchases from NPC corps and insurance payouts.
ISK disappears from the game via BPO and trade purchases from NPC corporations, insurance premiums, loyalty store purchases that involve ISK, taxes, PI taxes, PI factories and extractors, skillbook and clone purchases.
When you buy a battleship for 100mil ISK, you are giving 100mil ISK to another player who made your battleship. ISK does not leave the game. When you insure your ship ISK leaves the game - however you will be paid back your premium plus an extra amount, so insurance purchasing is actually a faucet not a sink. If you let your insurance expire or the policy is voided, it becomes a sink.
When you buy 50 mil ISK in modules, you are giving 50 mil ISK to other players. ISK does not leave the game when you buy modules.
When your ship gets destroyed, no ISK is destroyed. In fact ISK is created because you receive an insurance payout. Whether modules are destroyed or looted is irrelevant since they do not involve ISK.
You must understand that there are two economies - the ISK economy and the material economy. Material comes into the game via moon mining, PI, ice/roid mining, and loot drops from rats. Material is destroyed when a ship is destroyed and/or modules are deleted, or when players reprocess into minerals (including the refinery loss). Players interchange both material and ISK. Material makes ISK move from one player to another. However the destruction of material does not affect ISK at all.
While you THINK you are losing 1 billion ISK when that faction module gets destroyed - you are not losing anything except the module. The 1 billion ISK was already paid to someone else when you bought it, and that person still has the ISK whether the module exists or not. And it would cost you 1 billion ISK to buy another one, but that has nothing to do with the module that just got deleted.
Hope this helps clear things up. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
401
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 06:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
By "class" of ISK sink...
Largest ISK sink : NPC-sold items - blueprint originals and skillbooks
Second largest ISK sink : LPshop items - almost all of them need both LP and ISK to purchase
Third largest ISK sink : various NPC taxes and fees - market sales tax, broker fees, office rentals, wardecs, sovereignty costs, ship insurance costs (NOT payouts) and other similar things
Everything else is negligible.
...
By "class" of ISK source (or "faucet", if you prefer)...
Largest ISK source : NPC pirate ship bounties (anything from 65% to 90% of the TOTAL ISK added to the game in any given day)
Second largest ISK source : agent mission rewards (combined regular+bonus pay, between 10% and 25% of the total ISK)
Third largest ISK source : insurance payouts (up to 10% of the total ISK, usually noticeably less)
Everything else is negligible. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
20
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 06:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tekota wrote:To be honest, most of what is listed there is not the destruction of isk but the destruction of minerals.
Isk sinks are any time you pay, with isk, an NPC corp for any good or service. So, sales tax, brokers fees, LP store purchases, T1 BPO purchases, office rental fees, insurance paid for but not claimed upon etc.
Just wondering where the balance is with isk sinks and how the mony that comes in to EvE leaves EvE.
That one is trickier, I guess this will always only ever be known (if it is) by CCP. My only sure fire hunch is that more money must be coming into eve than leaving but the ratio would be a complete guess.
Someone mined minerals and put them on the market, paying broker fee and tax. You buy minerals with ISK and pay the broker fee (assuming you put a buy order). You make a ship. You sell the ship, you lose ISK to broker fee and tax again. You buy more minerals, you lose more ISK to broker fee and tax etc. This repeats indefinitely, ISK sinks to broker fees and taxes in a geometric progression. I'm guessing this is probably the biggest sink, since each market transaction is taxed.
Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :) |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
401
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 06:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
Dream Five wrote:Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :) Define "a lot"
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
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Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
20
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 06:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
Akita T wrote:Dream Five wrote:Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :) Define "a lot"
Trillions. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
401
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 07:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
Dream Five wrote:Akita T wrote:Dream Five wrote:Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :) Define "a lot" Trillions. I doubt there's more than a handful of people that ever had more than a trillion as liquid ISK in their wallet for more than a few moments. Total asset value though, yeah, enough of those around. Just not liquid. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Contributor_name:Akita_T#Contributions_link_collection |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
20
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Posted - 2011.11.30 07:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
Akita T wrote:Dream Five wrote:Akita T wrote:Dream Five wrote:Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :) Define "a lot" Trillions. I doubt there's more than a handful of people that ever had more than a trillion as liquid ISK in their wallet for more than a few moments. Total asset value though, yeah, enough of those around. Just not liquid.
WTB ISK! |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
209
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 12:19:00 -
[34] - Quote
Dream Five wrote: Someone mined minerals and put them on the market, paying broker fee and tax. You buy minerals with ISK and pay the broker fee (assuming you put a buy order). You make a ship. You sell the ship, you lose ISK to broker fee and tax again. You buy more minerals, you lose more ISK to broker fee and tax etc. This repeats indefinitely, ISK sinks to broker fees and taxes in a geometric progression. I'm guessing this is probably the biggest sink, since each market transaction is taxed.
Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :)
You buy minerals with ISK, but from another player. No NPC corp sells moon minerals. Therefore this is neither a faucet or sink, it's merely ISK moving from A to B - a transfer of wealth. |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
21
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Posted - 2011.11.30 23:36:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:Dream Five wrote: Someone mined minerals and put them on the market, paying broker fee and tax. You buy minerals with ISK and pay the broker fee (assuming you put a buy order). You make a ship. You sell the ship, you lose ISK to broker fee and tax again. You buy more minerals, you lose more ISK to broker fee and tax etc. This repeats indefinitely, ISK sinks to broker fees and taxes in a geometric progression. I'm guessing this is probably the biggest sink, since each market transaction is taxed.
Also some people hoard a lot of ISK :)
You buy minerals with ISK, but from another player. No NPC corp sells moon minerals. Therefore this is neither a faucet or sink, it's merely ISK moving from A to B - a transfer of wealth.
I'm sorry dude but I don't think you read what i wrote. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
108
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 23:58:00 -
[36] - Quote
Dream Five wrote: Someone mined minerals and put them on the market, paying broker fee and tax. You buy minerals with ISK and pay the broker fee (assuming you put a buy order). You make a ship. You sell the ship, you lose ISK to broker fee and tax again. You buy more minerals, you lose more ISK to broker fee and tax etc. This repeats indefinitely, ISK sinks to broker fees and taxes in a geometric progression. I'm guessing this is probably the biggest sink, since each market transaction is taxed.
Been a while since I read it, but Skill Books were the largest Sink, LP was next and then taxes/fees. |
Frost Mistress
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2011.12.01 04:43:00 -
[37] - Quote
Yeah I don't see taxes and the like having an impact. Sure the take some ISK out, but when you compare to what was needed to buy a good IE amount drawn from a faucet it is like dumping a cup of water out of a full bathtub. Don't let my frosty appearance and cold attitude fool you.Once you get to know me you'll find I'm a complete and total *****-á |
Zions Child
Odyssey Inc SpaceMonkey's Alliance
200
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 04:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
Frost Mistress wrote:Yeah I don't see taxes and the like having an impact. Sure the take some ISK out, but when you compare to what was needed to buy a good IE amount drawn from a faucet it is like dumping a cup of water out of a full bathtub. Although I believe Incursions are severely imbalancing the isk faucet/sink thing (e.g. I made about 400mill in rewards from Incursion running, and only got around 50k LP, which is not nearly enough of a sink), the ISK in this game is fairly well balanced. |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 04:58:00 -
[39] - Quote
I'm a bit curious if CCP has all sinks pool into one NPC wallet. Would also be interesting to see how much isk is made in one day and how much isk was removed in one day. Or in one hour. PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them! |
Venkul Mul
Vikramaditya
2
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Posted - 2011.12.01 12:48:00 -
[40] - Quote
From the graph in QUEN4 2010 (and discarding the last quarter here the removal of the training skill skewed a buit the expenses in training skills):
Isk sinks: skills: about 6 trillions blueprints: 4-5 trillions LP store: 4 trillions Transaction tax 1 trillion Broker fee 1 trillion
Sovereignty costs, offices rentals and insurance cost aren't even cited, so each one of those expenses should be under the trillion.
Isk faucets: Bounties: 24 trillions commodities sales 5-6 trillions Agent mission reward 2-3 triillions Mission time bonus 2-3 billions
From that QUEN: "EVE Central Bank has been monitoring the money supply closely and is becoming increasingly concerned about the rate of growth in the total money supply and the subsequent risk of inflation increase (see next section). The bank has therefore proposed that in 2011 there should be a focus on increasing ISK sinks in order to curb potential inflation."
Maybe the new PI tax rate is a step in that direction, but it will be counter balanced by moving from NPC owned to player owned custom offices in low sec and 0.0.
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Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids Pleasure Syndicate
26
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 08:17:00 -
[41] - Quote
Frost Mistress wrote:Yeah I don't see taxes and the like having an impact. Sure the take some ISK out, but when you compare to what was needed to buy a good IE amount drawn from a faucet it is like dumping a cup of water out of a full bathtub.
CCP needs to upgrade their sinks to Kohler. |
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 11:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
David Forge wrote:Diomedes Calypso wrote:Far and away the largest "sink" is people quitting the game with billions of isk in their inactive accounts. There was a developer post on this.. can't link it right now. I'm sorry, could somebody link this? I'm not having much luck searching for it but I would like to read it. Thanks for your trouble. From QEN 2010 Q4:
QEN wrote:In Q4, 2010, EVE's subscriber count grew by 9 percent, which translated into an increase in money supply. The money supply rose by 11 percent in Q4 2010 and there is now a combined 445 trillion ISK on all accounts within EVE. That represents the sum total of ISK in the game, on both active and inactive accounts. To get a better understanding of the current money supply, we also calculate the total money supply of players currently playing EVE, omitting lapsed subscriptions. Approximately 258 trillion ISK are on active paying accounts and 33 trillion on player corporation accounts, increasing the total on active paying accounts and player corporation accounts by around 35 trillion in the quarter. Therefore 154 trillion were on inactive accounts at the time of the stats snapshot.
And some stats on ISK faucets and sinks: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1401431&page=3#67 |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
41
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 14:59:00 -
[43] - Quote
In my (deep) pockets Need Researched BPO's? Be it drones, ammo, charges, you name it, visit my forum store now! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
0
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Posted - 2011.12.15 15:23:00 -
[44] - Quote
I'm kinda confused by alot of peoples defenition of 'sink'.
To me any action that destroys property or Isk could be considered a sink.
LP/NPC merchants to me don't fit this description as when your ISK disappears something of equal (and sometimes greater) value was spawned.
Take a book for example I pay 1 mill for book, I then own the book which is worth 1 mil , this book would never have exsisted if I had not bought it (except as a 'potential' item on a market list) therefore no isk/materials where created or destroyed it has merely changed form.
The 'use' of a book (player or npc bought) is a diffrent matter, once it's used it no longer has any material value, therfore my 1 mll isk has been 'sunk'.
The same with the use of any consumable possibly the biggets I'm suprised no one has mentioned is Ammo. POS feul must also rate highly I would imagine.
Sinks also include any time you pay an NPC for a service for which there is no material return. ie Taxes, Corp offices.
Also as I understand it destrution of ships and modules is a sink.
If your ship is destroyed then you lost (ship cost + insurance cost) you gain (insurance payout) a net loss of property or isk.
Any module on your ship that isn't looted within 2 hours is also property lost to oblivion.
I would say rigs/cybernetics are also a sink , as they loose any intrinsic value on use and could be seen as a form of consumable ( consumed for a long term buff ), They can also be destroyed and need replacing therefore sinking more isk.
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Jenn Makanen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
96
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 15:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
Professor Alphane wrote:I'm kinda confused by alot of peoples defenition of 'sink'.
To me any action that destroys property or Isk could be considered a sink.
LP/NPC merchants to me don't fit this description as when your ISK disappears something of equal (and sometimes greater) value was spawned.
Take a book for example I pay 1 mill for book, I then own the book which is worth 1 mil , this book would never have exsisted if I had not bought it (except as a 'potential' item on a market list) therefore no isk/materials where created or destroyed it has merely changed form.
The 'use' of a book (player or npc bought) is a diffrent matter, once it's used it no longer has any material value, therfore my 1 mll isk has been 'sunk'.
The same with the use of any consumable possibly the biggets I'm suprised no one has mentioned is Ammo. POS feul must also rate highly I would imagine.
Sinks also include any time you pay an NPC for a service for which there is no material return. ie Taxes, Corp offices.
Also as I understand it destrution of ships and modules is a sink.
If your ship is destroyed then you lost (ship cost + insurance cost) you gain (insurance payout) a net loss of property or isk.
Any module on your ship that isn't looted within 2 hours is also property lost to oblivion.
I would say rigs/cybernetics are also a sink , as they loose any intrinsic value on use and could be seen as a form of consumable ( consumed for a long term buff ), They can also be destroyed and need replacing therefore sinking more isk.
ISK Sink - Something that takes ISK out of player hands. ISK Faucet - Something that puts ISK into player hands.
Note, this isn't a specific players hands. This is any players hands.
A ship being destroyed removed no isk from anyone. yes, a player no longer has the value of the asset, but the isk in their wallet doesn't change. The ISK that was paid for the ship is safe and warm in the manufacturers wallet.
So you understand it wrong. We're not concerned about an individuals wallet. We're concerned about the total value of isk in all player wallets as a whole.
Rigs aren't a sink, as no isk was destroyed in their making (except a minor cost for the use of a manufacturing slot).
Implants are a sink, but only those bought from the LP store (implants from missions don't count). And they're a sink at the time they're bought.
PI taxes are going to be interesting here. There's a significantly higher percentage leaving there, as related to the total value of the PI goods. |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
41
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Posted - 2011.12.15 15:32:00 -
[46] - Quote
Sink means when actual isk is destroyed.
Suppose the entire eve economy has 5.000 trillion isk, and suddenly one person has all this isk. If he buys a 5.000 Trillion isk bpo from a npc, that isk is destroyed, and the entire eve economy has 0 isk and a bpo. At this point the bpo is worth less then it was before.
The point of isk sinks is to counter inflation by removing the isk itself, the value of goods will change depending on how much isk is left in the total pool. Need Researched BPO's? Be it drones, ammo, charges, you name it, visit my forum store now! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.15 16:19:00 -
[47] - Quote
OK sorry my bad, you literally mean just the currency not assests. |
Ulstan
State Protectorate Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2011.12.15 19:10:00 -
[48] - Quote
As said, an ISK sink is when ISK ceases to exist - not when it is transferred from player to player.
an ISK faucet is when new ISK is introduced.
Ships being destroyed or sold is not an ISK sink or faucet.
Sinks are things where a player spends money and it doesn't go to another player: med clone upgrades, jump clone installations, LP store offers, station services, taxes, broker fees, office rentals, insurance premiums, anything bought from an NPC corporation, all are sinks.
Faucets are things like NPC bounties and mission ISK rewards (NOT LP REWARDS) or insurance payouts.
Are PLEX an ISK sink? I haven't bought any in a long time and I can't remember if the players buy them only from other players or can also buy them directly from CCP (using ISK) |
David Forge
Forge Enterprises
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.16 02:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
PLEX are faucets. |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
42
|
Posted - 2011.12.16 02:16:00 -
[50] - Quote
David Forge wrote:PLEX are faucets.
No, they're not. Plex is an item that gets created which then is traded for already existing isk. Need Researched BPO's? Be it drones, ammo, charges, you name it, visit my forum store now! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
27
|
Posted - 2011.12.16 03:33:00 -
[51] - Quote
eve q4 2010 http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf
The Monetary System In Q4, 2010, EVEGÇÿs subscriber count grew by 9%, which translated into an increase in money supply. The money supply rose by 11% in Q4 2010 and there is now a combined 445 trillion ISK on all accounts within EVE. That represents the sum total of ISK in the game, on both active and inactive accounts. To get a better understanding of the current money supply, we also calculate the total money supply of players currently playing EVE, omitting lapsed subscriptions. Approximately 258 trillion ISK are on active paying accounts and 33 trillion on player corporation accounts, increasing the total on active paying accounts and player corporation accounts by around 35 trillion in the quarter.
....
I'll leave my commentary off mostly as its more complicated than most will grok, but the long and short of it is that 11% a quarter would be like a 50% inflation rate annually without probably 1/2 of that moving from active to inactive status.
Read the report farther and you get an idea about the magnitude of net earnings faucets vs sinks. Not only are Faucets 2x what the sinks are, the totaly daily flow o netf isk created is of an ammount of a similar order of magnitude of the total daily market trades (its about 1/2......not 1/10th is what i mean).
Much of the trade on the market we know has got to be cycling of isk of traders turning around and buying more stuff with the isk they just collected....so truly the isk creation is substantial
Given the retirement figures as proprotion of total isk outstanding and the percentages of flow per day to trading
I have got to think that the vast majority of the isk in the game never gets touched at all but piles up in peoples accounts who like shooting red boxes and then only leaves the game( (and doesn't really leave by some definition) when they let their account go innactive.
Basically, the player given economy is a fraction of the META game player moves of piling up isk they'll never use and retiring with amounts that would absolutely overwhelm the markets if they had instead tried to use it actively. |
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
20
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Posted - 2011.12.16 04:02:00 -
[52] - Quote
It's worth noting that even if you don't count inactive accounts as an isk sink, it still messes with velocity of money. A money sink is equivalent inflation-wise to putting money into something with zero money velocity (that is, the money comes, but it never leaves).
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
27
|
Posted - 2011.12.16 04:17:00 -
[53] - Quote
Quote:This quarter was an unusual one for EVE Online for several different reasons. Starting at a slow pace, it quickly jumped into overdrive once the details of the Incursion expansion started to become clear. The introduction of a new salvage ship (the Noctis), removal of learning skills, and excitement about the final release of the Incursion feature in January all contributed to a very active Q4 of 2010. So active, in fact, that we saw the daily trade value record increasing twice in December, ending in an incredible 1.8 trillion ISKGÇÖs worth of trades in a 24-hour period, in more than 1.2 million individual trades GÇô and this is only on the main EVE market, not taking into account contracts or direct trade between players.
brags about the immense record trade volume achieved one december day of 1.8 trillion isk. Now, in the quote from my other post above we noted that active accounts had about 300 trillion sitting in them and inactive accounts another 150 trillion or so.
I know there are isk transactions outside of the markets (contracts, player to player) but the open market has got to be at least what those are (i'd guess way more but still)
That trading volume is such a tiny portion of isk reserves.. even at double or tripple it we're still talking about trade only being in a 1% of Isk in accounts .....
.... and we know that traders make up a fair chunk of the volume too ..active traders will likely cycle their isk more quickly until they have too much isk to employ with their time and interest in the game.
I'm guessing that if you tried to estimate natural user-buyers of goods and services (as opposed to peole buying with the expectation to resell or use items to create an item that they will in) its far less than 1 trillion total daily including the end user portion of player to player transactions.
For all you guys arguing about the purity of eve money supply and the risks of ccp tampering in the markets...
.... take a closer look at the magnitudes.
what you do and your friends do in game are much more the exception perhaps.
It looks like the big story of the game is a that a Fair segment of the players collect ISK as a large portion of their game play then leave in in their accounts when they move to play another game
Thats what the economy is really about... meta things like real people collecting some game points in he way of virtual currency then leaving the "score" intact with it worth little to them unless and until they come back 3 years later, at which time it would likely be worth 1/4 of what it was when they left in terms of the relative effort needed to get isk per hour then vs now.
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Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
299
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Posted - 2011.12.16 04:34:00 -
[54] - Quote
insurance is an isk sink. did anyone do that one yet? |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
27
|
Posted - 2011.12.16 04:52:00 -
[55] - Quote
Woo Glin wrote:insurance is an isk sink. did anyone do that one yet?
If you look at the numbers on the CCP report I linked you can squint your eyes and see insurance on the graphs
BTW insurance purchase is a sink but the insurance payout is a faucet
They show more being paid out than taken in by insurance so insurance is a net faucet of ISK into the game
Basically insurance looks to be almost negibible in magnitude in its contribution as a faucet or sink.
HOWEVER,, this excercise is leading me to beleive you have two seperate economies in eve.. that in which players who actually use the ships and get them blown up, participate, and another "economy" of people who create isk with pve and let it stack up.
the "real" economy is probably much smaller in size than the isk values unrelated to eventual ship warfare ... but as that is the true game economy, insurance MAY be a quite important factor in that real portion of the economy....it could grow from being 3% of economic activity to 30% of activity for the portion of players that it matters to
(NOTE all of you guys with a problem with words.. yes ships can get detroyed and game Wealth can get detroyed meaning you'd have less stuff you could sell for isk.... but isk itself isn't destroyed only things that have an isk value) |
David Forge
Forge Enterprises
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.16 16:58:00 -
[56] - Quote
Riley Moore wrote:David Forge wrote:PLEX are faucets. No, they're not. Plex is an item that gets created which then is traded for already existing isk.
Now that you've said I wonder how I could have thought differently. The idiot thanks you for your correction.
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