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Fronn Penken
Fearful Symmetry Northern Associates.
1
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Posted - 2014.04.06 03:39:00 -
[1] - Quote
One of the reasons I love eve so much is because it is not a game where a person goes out and gets a big stick to smash everything in sight. In eve, there is an effective counter for even advanced tactics and situations that is easily accessed by pilots with moderate skill levels and bank accounts. There is however, one area where my beloved game falls short, and that is in the current mechanics of the cloaking devices. these devices are wonderful, and used by many pilots every day to move goods, scout, and sneak up on targets covertly. But in its current "Set it and forget it" model, the device is easily used to generate resource denial and much ship spinning without any required input from the pilot. A pilot can simply warp 100km off a station and activate the cloaking device, then walk away from his/her computer and leave it there for hours on end without any fear of detection, or retaliation. This is simply unacceptable in my opinion, and I believe there should be a way to counter this and other scenarios where one pilot can bring the operations of a system to its knees with the click of a "cloak" button. Here is an idea that I have come up with as one possible counter.
Cloaking Detection Probe & Skills
A probe launched from an expanded probe launcher that can only be used to detect ships actively using a cloaking device. This probe would require a good deal of scanning skills to launch and use, and also possibly a few new skills such as, Cloaking Detection Probe Operation, allowing 1 additional probe in space per level, and Cloaking Detection, which would increase the accuracy of the probes by 5% per level.
Restricting the total number of Covert Detection Probes a pilot can use at the same time to 6 (1 + 1 per level of Covert Detection Probe Operation) would make it harder to pinpoint cloaked ships thus giving the cloaked pilot more time to escape or move.
This is just one idea of how to deal with this issue but the bottom line is I think its worth some time and effort to come up with some kind of a counter.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post and please drop some ideas to improve the idea, or problems to consider. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
393
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Posted - 2014.04.06 03:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Search bar, top right corner, search "cloaking detection". It's been suggested before, multiple times, by many people.
Please and thank you.
e: don't mean to be rude just informing you before someone not as nice shows up |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
369
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Posted - 2014.04.06 04:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Search bar, top right corner, search "cloaking detection". It's been suggested before, multiple times, by many people.
Please and thank you.
e: don't mean to be rude just informing you before someone not as nice shows up You are right. This has indeed shown up before.
Lol OP you so d¦¦u¦¦m¦¦b¦¦ slow.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
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Fronn Penken
Fearful Symmetry Northern Associates.
4
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Posted - 2014.04.06 04:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
good then I am glad to add my voice to that group in hopes someone will take it into serious consideration |
Ingrid spasskowski
Dehar investments
0
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Posted - 2014.04.06 04:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Then there has probable be a idea of letting the cycle cost more juice increasing it first after 10 minutes then 20 minutes then at 30 minutes were u have not interacted with your ship your cloak deactivates as there is no cap to maintain it.
Another idea is side implementation on that covert op scanning idea .. we don-¦t want covert ops to be useless .. so if you are in same position for a long time (AFK Cloak blocking system) then you will be detectable with probes, be it specialized probes or just combat probes(I like combat probes) giving the system a chance to find that pilot.
-Ingrid |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1175
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Posted - 2014.04.06 06:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Fronn Penken wrote:good then I am glad to add my voice to that group in hopes someone will take it into serious consideration no, that means your thread is going to be locked for 2 reasons
1) Its a repeat thread, if you wish to contribute, post in a thread on this topic that ISNT locked for being a duplicate
2) its going to be locked because at this point "lol nerf-cloak now plz nullsec not safe" threads are either ranting or trolling, because its been discussed to death for YEARS. You cannot "nerf" cloaking until you first nerf the perfect safety of the intel system known as "local", as well as a myriad of other issues that the only counter to for a small-man/group is cloaking and cloaking related tactics.
Also, be aware, that short of cynos, NO cloaking ship is as combat capable as a non-cloaking ship, so if what you are scared of is that cloaker turning into a whole fleet through a cyno, then your fear is of FORCE PROJECTION, not cloaking.
Also be aware, 99% of any idea involving a way to hunt a cloaked ship, negates the entire existence of the cloak in the first place, and utterly breaks any and all forms of wormhole warfare or intel gathering, making wormholes nigh unlivable for the smaller groups, and entrenched alliances impossible to evict.
this also breaks scanning as you can no longer cloak up to drop probes, because your stuck on an entirely different screen unable to warp. a further nerf to exploration and wormholes. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
17007
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Posted - 2014.04.06 06:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Reported as a redundant thread.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Cloak n'all
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
34
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Posted - 2014.04.06 06:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ingrid spasskowski wrote:Then there has probable be a idea of letting the cycle cost more juice increasing it first after 10 minutes then 20 minutes then at 30 minutes were u have not interacted with your ship your cloak deactivates as there is no cap to maintain it.
Another idea is side implementation on that covert op scanning idea .. we don-¦t want covert ops to be useless .. so if you are in same position for a long time (AFK Cloak blocking system) then you will be detectable with probes, be it specialized probes or just combat probes(I like combat probes) giving the system a chance to find that pilot.
-Ingrid I like this idea. Make them use cap at exponential rates. I think that would be a good compromise if the time between the increases was an hour. That would not "kill Cloaking", it would just keep cloaked Pilots from abusing the cloak system in the many ways you can abuse it. 1. with a long enough delay between increase, a WH pilot could leave the current WH and turn it off for a sec, then go back to hunting. This would only need to be done about ever 2 or 3 hours, depending on your cap stability over all. 2. Would not change Null sec at all as all the pilot would have to do is uncloak for a second ever now and than plus there already visible in local. 3. would hurt Blockade Runners on long trips if the delay is not long enough. These ships are so fast now though, that it may not even matter. That being said, CCP will most likely not even read this as it is a taboo topic for them. Bet this will be locked by the end of the weekend, since I just watched another one get locked yesterday. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
17007
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Posted - 2014.04.06 06:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
These are all old and tired arguments, that have already been countered numerous times. They all seek to nerf cloaks and break covert game play, All because of a small group in sov holding null.
There is no abuse or exploit and cloaks do already have counters. Deal with them as we all do, even us in low.
Also the fact that you can create the same effect without a cloak, should point to their being another mechanic at fault here. But I don't see anyone asking to nerf that mechanic yet.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Humang
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
58
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Posted - 2014.04.06 08:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mess with cloaking and you screw over every single person that live in Worm-Holes.
However; what are the mechanics of cloaking that you claim are being abuses? Because if you say "AFK cloaking" then this thread is no different to the plethora of others before it. AFK Cloaking Thread summary - Provided by Paikis
-á-á-á-á-á - Witty Comment Here - |
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Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
323
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Posted - 2014.04.06 11:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
The counter for covert cloak ships is, they are weaker and expensiver then non cover cloaked ships. |
Fronn Penken
Fearful Symmetry Northern Associates.
4
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Posted - 2014.04.06 12:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mag's wrote:These are all old and tired arguments, that have already been countered numerous times. They all seek to nerf cloaks and break covert game play, All because of a small group in sov holding null.
There is no abuse or exploit and cloaks do already have counters. Deal with them as we all do, even us in low.
Also the fact that you can create the same effect without a cloak, should point to their being another mechanic at fault here. But I don't see anyone asking to nerf that mechanic yet.
I have used this tactic in highsec wars to camp systems for long periods of time to lure miners out. So no it is not a small problem that only effects sov holding nulsec groups. Also this cannot be done without a cloaking device because you can be seen on D-scan and scanned down using combat probes.
Your argument is invalid |
Fronn Penken
Fearful Symmetry Northern Associates.
4
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Posted - 2014.04.06 12:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
Humang wrote:Mess with cloaking and you screw over every single person that live in Worm-Holes.
However; what are the mechanics of cloaking that you claim are being abuses? Because if you say "AFK cloaking" then this thread is no different to the plethora of others before it.
It is not the afk cloak that I have a problem with, it is the ability to camp without and means of countering, I don't believe this would screw people over in worm holes either as you would just have to d-scan and if you see covert probes warp away or uncloak as the probes would not detect an uncloaked ship. I am simply looking for a way to add content to the game in an interesting way to counter the stationary cloaked ships, be them active or AFK. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
17008
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Posted - 2014.04.06 12:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fronn Penken wrote:Mag's wrote:These are all old and tired arguments, that have already been countered numerous times. They all seek to nerf cloaks and break covert game play, All because of a small group in sov holding null.
There is no abuse or exploit and cloaks do already have counters. Deal with them as we all do, even us in low.
Also the fact that you can create the same effect without a cloak, should point to their being another mechanic at fault here. But I don't see anyone asking to nerf that mechanic yet. I have used this tactic in highsec wars to camp systems for long periods of time to lure miners out. So no it is not a small problem that only effects sov holding nulsec groups. Also this cannot be done without a cloaking device because you can be seen on D-scan and scanned down using combat probes. Your argument is invalid Your counter would be valid if:
A. You could link the many forum posts to show, that this also affects war targets as you suggest.
B. You couldn't gain the same effect by being AFK speed fit in a fast ship. (One could even argue AFK docked and AFK posed)
You also failed to mention (again) the mechanic being used to cause the effect whilst they are supposedly AFK and your thoughts on how it can be nerfed.
But I guess you must be the first to post such ideas and they have never ever been discussed before (to death)?
INB4TL
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Fronn Penken
Fearful Symmetry Northern Associates.
4
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Posted - 2014.04.06 13:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
A) System camping has never been a exclusivly nulsec activity, that is just fact. and you cannot deni that it can be used as an effective way to hold war targets in a station
B) In both situations the targets location can be found. You can dock in a station and see that they are there, or combat scan a speed ship and find it. It may not be easy but even a speed tank ship can be caught using combat probes and a faster ship.
A cloaked ship however cannot be pinpointed or caught and the ship type cannot be determined, that is my issue. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1299
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Posted - 2014.04.06 13:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
Fronn Penken wrote:A) System camping has never been a exclusivly nulsec activity, that is just fact. and you cannot deni that it can be used as an effective way to hold war targets in a station
B) In both situations the targets location can be found. You can dock in a station and see that they are there, or combat scan a speed ship and find it. It may not be easy but even a speed tank ship can be caught using combat probes and a faster ship.
A cloaked ship however cannot be pinpointed or caught and the ship type cannot be determined, that is my issue.
we've literally just been discussing this for the millionth time.
and the point u make in A is exactly why i am opposed to this.
(i got to this thread through an ISD's link and it auto liked the post for me...wtf?)
gonna laugh so hard if CCP implement this and AFK camping becomes a problem in high sec. gonna laugh so hard.
ur point B is also not true. in null sec u cant dock in their stations and u cannot be caught because u cannot be probed down fast enough. ECCM is a thing. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
17009
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Posted - 2014.04.06 18:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Fronn Penken wrote:A) System camping has never been a exclusivly nulsec activity, that is just fact. and you cannot deni that it can be used as an effective way to hold war targets in a station
B) In both situations the targets location can be found. You can dock in a station and see that they are there, or combat scan a speed ship and find it. It may not be easy but even a speed tank ship can be caught using combat probes and a faster ship.
A cloaked ship however cannot be pinpointed or caught and the ship type cannot be determined, that is my issue. But you suggested my argument was invalid using two main points. I listed them A and B.
A. For that to be the case when we are discussing AFK cloaking, I would expect you to be able to point me to the myriad of forum posts from war targets complaining about AFK cloaking. Not just hundreds from sov null pilots. I'll wait if you are collecting them as we speak, no rush. I'm sure you can show just how invalid my point was with how many you collect.
As far as B is concerned, I'm talking about the effect. If you cannot catch them, they will have the same effect on those in system. It all depends on the fit and some knowledge. You have to remember that this is a two way street after all, so the effect can be made to either side. So yes, AFK speeding, POSing and docking all have the chance of cause that effect. I say chance, because the effect from AFKing is not guaranteed. Some pilots are not affected by this in anywhere near the same way, they use the options already available and carry on playing.
You have also failed to mention (yet again) the mechanic used to create that effect and any nerf you would apply to that.
Also a cloaked ship may not be pinpointed (Although they can in specific circumstances), but they can be caught and ship type can be determined. But I fail to see why you should be allowed, to pinpoint a ship with a device specifically made to make it covert. Especially when the mechanic used for AFKing in this regard would still exist, if cloaks were nerfed in this way. Not only that, but I can already imagine a fit that would make your probes pointless. Based on the current speed fit design.
So what would happen? Well active players would be nerfed far more and those that fit correctly and AFK could carry on as before.
Anyone would think we've been over this countless times before. Go figure.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
552
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Posted - 2014.04.06 21:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Lame. This has been suggested.. it's not a good idea. First off, there are counters to cloaking already especially covert cloaking. Second, cloaking should and does make you so undetectable that a random magnetically generated radio signal from a volcano on some planet would be easier to scan for and in truth would interfere and make it even harder to detect a cloaked vessel. Fourth, as soon as scanning for cloakers is possible everyone and their brother will train to the max to be able to nullify cloaking as a useful tool in WH's, gate camps, or for recon intel gathering. How many scanners will a fleet employ to make it impossible for a cloaked ship to try to circumnavigate a gate camp? Answer: as many as it takes.
Not only is a covert cloaked ship weaker than a lot of other ships but a cloaked vessel cannot hurt you.
I vote "no" on this disaster of an idea. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1111
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Posted - 2014.04.06 23:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
As there already are numerous threads on the same topic, this one gets a lock.
The rules: 16. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.
As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.
ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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