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Prince Kobol
1638
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Posted - 2014.04.09 10:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
Soon CCP is going to have tackle the thorny issue of rebalancing Supers and Titans.
Supers and Titans have received nothing but nerfs since there inception. I know many players who are on the verge quitting Eve and another nerf to Supers and Titans will be the straw that breaks the camels back.
For me the issue is not that they are too powerful, but they are too easy to build.
This is the reason why there are so many Supers and Titans in game now and why you can replace so many in just a few days.
So the solution for me is not to nerf them yet again but make them harder to build and increasing the minerals content will not work to stop this but a simple change will.
At the moment all you need to anchor a CSAA is the Strategic Index at 1 and the ihub upgrade Supercapital Construction Facilities.
Now if you change the requirement to Strategic Index 5 and Industry Index to 5 you are going to see a lot less Supers and Titans being built.
Not only will this increase the cost of buying a Super + Titan due to far less being built which will increase demand but it will also force Null Sec entities into enticing miners into null to order to get their Industry Index to 5 as well as make sure the system is not flipped in order not to lose the Strategic Index.
For me its a very simple change, something which CCP could do in just a few minutes and it would put a big dent in the ability to produce so many Supers and Titans as well as helping get more Industry people out into null. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
1082
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Posted - 2014.04.09 10:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Just release a bigger, more powerful ship to aim for.
That'll stop it. . -á<- Argue this, not this ->-á( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦) |
brinelan
The Flying Dead Bloodline.
149
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Posted - 2014.04.09 10:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:
Now if you change the requirement to Strategic Index 5 and Industry Index to 5 you are going to see a lot less Supers and Titans being built.
This wont change a thing, itll just move construction to ratting systems. |
lanyaie
SkyNet Experiments
911
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Posted - 2014.04.09 10:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
And how does this belong in general disccusion?
From what I'm reading here, you want to raise the requirements needed to build supers and titans, so that the people who already have lots of them will get an advantage. Not to mention that most large nullsec alliances would have no problem getting those 2 to 5. Yeah..I don't see that happening, simply because the idea itself is bad. Hay |
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
178
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Posted - 2014.04.09 10:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
I agree with Prince Kobol. I always agree with prince Kobol. |
Spurty
V0LTA Triumvirate.
1320
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Posted - 2014.04.09 10:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
So we need the "Titanaught!"
Ok, I've not had any coffee this morning but whatever it is CCP does to thwart more of something (often introducing a new predator) the guys in the ships it's designed for will be the first to own an impossible to fight army of the bloody things.
You have to sour the wine instead
Make the ship opening cynos have to be of a certain class .. Want to jump Supers around?
Going to need to move your battleship into place to open the cyno ... Oh nos that's horrible... Shut up and eat your medicine.
*signature is not allowed on the EVE Online forums* |
Spurty
V0LTA Triumvirate.
1320
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Posted - 2014.04.09 10:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Shut up was aimed at the souring "idea" not the op who is actually using their brain. Please carry on :) *signature is not allowed on the EVE Online forums* |
Prince Kobol
1638
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Posted - 2014.04.09 11:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
lanyaie wrote:And how does this belong in general disccusion?
From what I'm reading here, you want to raise the requirements needed to build supers and titans, so that the people who already have lots of them will get an advantage. Not to mention that most large nullsec alliances would have no problem getting those 2 to 5. Yeah..I don't see that happening, simply because the idea itself is bad.
No matter what you do, what changes you make those with more will always have the advantage, this can be said for all situations.
Now saying this, if you make the construction of Supers and Titans more difficult, those who do have the most might, might be less inclined to field them as often as they do because they know they wont be able to replace them in a matter of hours / days.
At the moment you can take Sov and the very same day have a super building. With the requirement of having Strategic Index at 5 you will have to wait a minimum of 100 days before you can even think about building a Super or Titan.
Yes that will not make any difference... |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
160
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Posted - 2014.04.09 11:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Can you explain how a delay makes anything more difficult?
Because that's what you are asking for. A delay. They need to get to V first.
What's the increased difficulty here exactly? |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
160
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Posted - 2014.04.09 11:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
And not only that... you think that making it more costly equals making it more difficult!
ISK never has been a balancing factor, ever!
And you are completely forgetting that all the bigger entities are perfectly capable to influence mineral prices across all systems. They can make them go up or dow at will, simply because they have the manpower, influence and money to do so!
So even if it was superuberexpensive to build them and would even be more expensive than what even the goons can afford, all they'd need to do is influence the market enough to make mineral prices drop and then buy them up from the market as usual!
You think they can't do that? Hahahahahahaha okay! |
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Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
91
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Posted - 2014.04.09 11:41:00 -
[11] - Quote
How to fix supercap spam: 1. Make them buildable in highsec only 2. Disable their jump drives for 1 year 3. Disable all supercap production in nullsec 4. Ban all supercap pilots |
Nyreanya
Serenity Labs
411
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Posted - 2014.04.09 11:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
This would make it pretty easy to spot what systems are construction systems on the map. And all it would take is a handful of cloaky campers harassing the miners for a week or two to drop the index down. Thus, large organized entities could effectively eliminate the ability to produce these ships.
Having a quick glance at the ingame map, I saw 6 systems that have Industry 5. I probably missed some, so lets say there's 10. Each alliance probably wouldn't try to interfere with it's own, or it's allies, so let's say that a given nullsec alliance has 6 of those systems they would like to shut down. How much work would it take to get guys over there to disrupt mining enough to drop the index down? How hard would it be to look at the map and guess where your enemies are building their supers? Everyone would know exactly where to hit their enemies to cripple their super production. [/sarcasm] |
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
2153
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Posted - 2014.04.09 11:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:And not only that... you think that making it more costly equals making it more difficult!
ISK never has been a balancing factor, ever!
And you are completely forgetting that all the bigger entities are perfectly capable to influence mineral prices across all systems. They can make them go up or dow at will, simply because they have the manpower, influence and money to do so!
So even if it was superuberexpensive to build them and would even be more expensive than what even the goons can afford, all they'd need to do is influence the market enough to make mineral prices drop and then buy them up from the market as usual!
You think they can't do that? Hahahahahahaha okay! "Isk is not a balancing factor" is the stupidest statement one can make regarding EvE. It's the ultimate balancing factor in EvE. Jubus ...
Want to make billions a week solo running combat sites in null sec? -á Read my Exploratation Guide here -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=309467 |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2857
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Posted - 2014.04.09 11:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
you mean make it relatively harder for everyone but the biggest oldest established groups to build supers?
implementing this'd basically confirm dinsdale's accusation of nullsec cartels running ccp? |
Prince Kobol
1639
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Posted - 2014.04.09 12:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:you mean make it relatively harder for everyone but the biggest oldest established groups to build supers?
implementing this'd basically confirm dinsdale's accusation of nullsec cartels running ccp?
Actually its the opposite.
Doing this actually gives the smaller guys a chance to hurt the big guys for once.
As another poster has stated, it is very easier to see what systems have a Indy Index of 5.
To get the index to 5 requires miners, a lot of miners.
I am not sure how reliable these figures are as they are a couple years old however they are the best I can find.
Index 1 Mined volume to obtain (m3) - 1,500,000 Volume/day to maintain (m3) - 750,000
Index 2
Mined volume to obtain (m3) - 3,000,000 Volume/day to maintain (m3) - 1,500,000
Index 3
Mined volume to obtain (m3) - 6,000,000 Volume/day to maintain (m3) - 3,000,000
Index 4
Mined volume to obtain (m3) - 12,000,000 Volume/day to maintain (m3) - 6,000,000
Index 5
Mined volume to obtain (m3) - 24,000,000 Volume/day to maintain (m3) - 12,000,000
You also have the 25% decay rate as well.
So it means you need a lot of miners out there mining every single day.
So that means as soon as the Indy Index say hits 3 or 4 you move in a few cloaky ships with cyno's and boom you make it a lot harder for them to hit Indy 5.
You do not need to be a 1000 man alliance to do this. Hell you can perma camp a system with a just a few guys.
Sure which ever alliance is wanting that system at Indy 5 will need to keep a force there to defend there miners but that is a good thing because at the moment you don't.
So yes it will be easier to disrupt their mining ops, you will be forcing them to run defence fleets to protect their miners, all of which is currently not needed and you do not have to have 1000's of guys to do this. |
Nolen Cadmar
Nexus Ore Technologies and Excavations Surely You're Joking
138
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Posted - 2014.04.09 12:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:So the solution for me is not to nerf them yet again but make them harder to build
Which is effectively a nerf. Nolen's Spreadsheet Guru Services: Need a spreadsheet created, maintained, updated or repaired? Learn more about my services at:-á https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3865379 |
Percival Rose
J44 Capital Axiom Initiative
15
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Posted - 2014.04.09 12:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nolen Cadmar wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:So the solution for me is not to nerf them yet again but make them harder to build Which is effectively a nerf. Yes, but it will not affect their combat effectiveness. The alternative would be to nerf the nukes of New Eden to the level of firecrackers. Nobody wants that. De you know who's going to inherit New Eden? Arms dealers. Because everyone else is too busy killing each other. |
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
369
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Posted - 2014.04.09 12:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Raising the build time or cost won't help at all. It reinforces established groups who have stashes of these ships on holding characters in anyway.
The only real way to manage them is to make them highly dependent on other ship classes. You don't have battle ship fleets without logistics, interdictors or webbing ships but at the moment you can have a supercap fleet with little need for other ship types because they can do everything in one hull type. |
Nolen Cadmar
Nexus Ore Technologies and Excavations Surely You're Joking
138
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Posted - 2014.04.09 12:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Percival Rose wrote:Nolen Cadmar wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:So the solution for me is not to nerf them yet again but make them harder to build Which is effectively a nerf. Yes, but it will not affect their combat effectiveness. The alternative would be to nerf the nukes of New Eden to the level of firecrackers. Nobody wants that.
It will not change their combat effectiveness, but do you think that the sov-nullsec groups will support a change that makes supercapitals more difficult to build? To them, it's a nerf whether it effects the combat usage, or the difficulty of obtaining one.
Requiring more upgrades will not change much. There will still be supercapital construction at almost the same rate. It will just cost them a tiny bit more. With moon goo and renting income, they can afford it.
The only thing I can see this proposed change doing is making it MORE difficult for groups outside of sov nullsec to obtain supers. The sov-nullsec groups will still build and use them, but prices will increase, making it more difficult for npc null or lowsec groups to obtain them. Nolen's Spreadsheet Guru Services: Need a spreadsheet created, maintained, updated or repaired? Learn more about my services at:-á https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3865379 |
Vaffel Junior
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
110
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
Death to all supers |
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Prince Kobol
1640
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nolen Cadmar wrote:Percival Rose wrote:Nolen Cadmar wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:So the solution for me is not to nerf them yet again but make them harder to build Which is effectively a nerf. Yes, but it will not affect their combat effectiveness. The alternative would be to nerf the nukes of New Eden to the level of firecrackers. Nobody wants that. It will not change their combat effectiveness, but do you think that the sov-nullsec groups will support a change that makes supercapitals more difficult to build? To them, it's a nerf whether it effects the combat usage, or the difficulty of obtaining one. Requiring more upgrades will not change much. There will still be supercapital construction at almost the same rate. It will just cost them a tiny bit more. With moon goo and renting income, they can afford it. The only thing I can see this proposed change doing is making it MORE difficult for groups outside of sov nullsec to obtain supers. The sov-nullsec groups will still build and use them, but prices will increase, making it more difficult for npc null or lowsec groups to obtain them.
I fully expect some null sec peeps to hate this idea.
At the moment other then visual scouting you have no idea where Supers and Titans are currently being built. All that is required is Sov + ihub with upgrade.
By changing the requirements to Strategic and Indy to 5 it becomes a hell of a lot easier to find the systems which are capable to building them, by default it makes it a lot easier to camp those systems and disrupt the building process.
Will this stop them building built, of course not and nor should it, but it will certainly make a massive difference in how many can be built.
As for the cost, its called supply and demand. Of course it will take time as current ships are destroyed and what ever stocks are available become depleted but at some point you will find that the price will go up significantly.
As the price goes up and the difficulty of construction increases they become more valuable and are thus are less inclined to be used to the extent they are being used now.
Hell at the moment Supers are being used here there and everywhere. To lose a super is no big deal any more. Those who have them get them replaced in days, quite a people are now multi boxing supers they are becoming that common.
As for low sec groups and NPC guys, they will always be Supers and Titans up for sale regardless of difficult they are to be built .
Also life isn't fair and not everybody can have everything so get used to it. |
E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy Caldari State
567
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Can you explain how a delay makes anything more difficult?
Because that's what you are asking for. A delay. They need to get to V first.
What's the increased difficulty here exactly? My guess would be he is referring to time. Time to build the titans time to harvest the materials. You are correct when you say increasing the cost will do nothing because Bluesec has deep pockets.
Time is the only thing everyone has in common regardless of who you are and where you play. Time is constant in any equation.
BTW what happened to your other forum posting toon? Just opted for a gender change or did you earn a perma ban?
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Prince Kobol
1640
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Raising the build time or cost won't help at all. It reinforces established groups who have stashes of these ships on holding characters in anyway.
The only real way to manage them is to make them highly dependent on other ship classes. You don't have battle ship fleets without logistics, interdictors or webbing ships but at the moment you can have a supercap fleet with little need for other ship types because they can do everything in one hull type.
They are already very dependent on other ships. Tell everybody how a super by itself can defend itself against a couple of dictors and a decent size fleet of battle ships + logi?
Hence the wrecking ball fleet, remove the carries and the supers by themselves become nothing but very expensive killmails.
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Prince Kobol
1640
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Can you explain how a delay makes anything more difficult?
Because that's what you are asking for. A delay. They need to get to V first.
What's the increased difficulty here exactly?
First the time increase.
At the moment all you need to do is acquire some backwater system in null, drop a ihub, install the required upgrade and of you go.
You can do this within 24 hours of capturing a system.
With what I have proposed, it would take a minimum of 100 days before you could even anchor your CSAA.
With needing both index's at 5 it becomes much more easier to find which systems are capable of building Supers + Titans.
That means CSAA hunting becomes a whole easier making them much more valuable to attack.
On top of this you need to get miners into null and then protect them in order to get the Indy Index to 5 which is not as easy as it sounds.
Add this all together and it will become a hell of a lot harder to pump out Supers and Titans in the number in which they are being produced today and you do not have to change their combat abilities which is the worst thing you can do to them |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
160
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Can you explain how a delay makes anything more difficult?
Because that's what you are asking for. A delay. They need to get to V first.
What's the increased difficulty here exactly? My guess would be he is referring to time. Time to build the titans time to harvest the materials. You are correct when you say increasing the cost will do nothing because Bluesec has deep pockets. Time is the only thing everyone has in common regardless of who you are and where you play. Time is constant in any equation. BTW what happened to your other forum posting toon? Just opted for a gender change or did you earn a perma ban? I don't have forum toons. I'm only me... and I'm kind of regretting having a female char.
I sold Solstice Project for PLEX4GOOD and was busy with my grandma being in hospital.
You can ask google for verification, which will point at the charbazarr.
Anyhow... Infinity Ziona... hasn't changed one bit, I see. Obviously knows the game even better than CCP. |
Benny Ohu
Beneath the Ashes Margin of Silence
2857
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:you mean make it relatively harder for everyone but the biggest oldest established groups to build supers?
implementing this'd basically confirm dinsdale's accusation of nullsec cartels running ccp? Actually its the opposite. Doing this actually gives the smaller guys a chance to hurt the big guys for once. and even greater opportunity for the 'big guys' to hurt the 'small guys'
that's leaving aside the fact that the biggest winners would be the big established groups that already own supers
oh yeh, that's the 'big guys', winning again |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
160
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:42:00 -
[27] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Can you explain how a delay makes anything more difficult?
Because that's what you are asking for. A delay. They need to get to V first.
What's the increased difficulty here exactly? First the time increase. At the moment all you need to do is acquire some backwater system in null, drop a ihub, install the required upgrade and of you go. You can do this within 24 hours of capturing a system. With what I have proposed, it would take a minimum of 100 days before you could even anchor your CSAA. With needing both index's at 5 it becomes much more easier to find which systems are capable of building Supers + Titans. That means CSAA hunting becomes a whole easier making them much more valuable to attack. On top of this you need to get miners into null and then protect them in order to get the Indy Index to 5 which is not as easy as it sounds. Add this all together and it will become a hell of a lot harder to pump out Supers and Titans in the number in which they are being produced today and you do not have to change their combat abilities which is the worst thing you can do to them You need to get miners into null to raise it to V?
Okay, even although I don't understand how this works... nobody needs to get miners to null. The people already are there. They can start mining in hundreds on the first day. There aren't even enough roids to mine for all these people.
Interesting. Not sure if I should waste my time looking up these mechanics...
Btw, do you actually live in nullsec? |
Rikanin
30plus Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
84
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Posted - 2014.04.09 13:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
Solecist Project wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Solecist Project wrote:Can you explain how a delay makes anything more difficult?
Because that's what you are asking for. A delay. They need to get to V first.
What's the increased difficulty here exactly? First the time increase. At the moment all you need to do is acquire some backwater system in null, drop a ihub, install the required upgrade and of you go. You can do this within 24 hours of capturing a system. With what I have proposed, it would take a minimum of 100 days before you could even anchor your CSAA. With needing both index's at 5 it becomes much more easier to find which systems are capable of building Supers + Titans. That means CSAA hunting becomes a whole easier making them much more valuable to attack. On top of this you need to get miners into null and then protect them in order to get the Indy Index to 5 which is not as easy as it sounds. Add this all together and it will become a hell of a lot harder to pump out Supers and Titans in the number in which they are being produced today and you do not have to change their combat abilities which is the worst thing you can do to them You need to get miners into null to raise it to V? Okay, even although I don't understand how this works... nobody needs to get miners to null. The people already are there. They can start mining in hundreds on the first day. There aren't even enough roids to mine for all these people. Interesting. Not sure if I should waste my time looking up these mechanics... Btw, do you actually live in nullsec?
Mining upgrades produce small moderate and large asteroid clusters that have to be scanned down at various levels of industry so those would add significantly to the amounts available for mining but I agree that a system with more belts would be better suited to keeping the level up at V which is not easy to do.
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Baneken
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
195
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Posted - 2014.04.09 14:23:00 -
[29] - Quote
Interesting proposal and it would certainly slow supercap building for a while, not to mention the emergent gameplay for all those AFK cloakers sitting in your systems. Also 24mil units of ore really isn't that much when you need equal amounts of trit for a single capital anyway.
But one thing about this change would be a price hike for supers when you can't just rush to Jita and shop for minerals. |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar E.A.R.T.H. Federation
388
|
Posted - 2014.04.09 14:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Want to stop Proliferation dead in its tracks? Make them only buildable in FW Systems.
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