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xTal Methodist
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Posted - 2006.05.10 01:18:00 -
[1]
I'm fairly new to cruisers so I don't know much about how to fit them but from what I've seen it seems fairly pointless to get any cruiser other than a Caracal. It can hit for massive damage from beyond the range of most NPCs and even if it does get hit you can still put a fairly good shield tank. I've been playing with an Omen recently and maybe the grass is always greener but it just doesn't seem to compare at all.
So for all you more experienced players, elighten me, why should I stick with Amarr cruisers when after a week I could be flying a Caracal?
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Entropist
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Posted - 2006.05.10 01:19:00 -
[2]
Bah, previous poster is me.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.05.10 01:24:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/05/2006 01:25:10
The Caracal is a very powerful ship, but it has its weaknesses.
Its only good tank is a passive tank, and thus for sheer ability to withstand DPS the maller easily defeats it. A Caracal is definitely not a "wet paper bag" (I wouldn't call any ship which can have 6000 or more hardened shields on a setup along with 5 of its largest guns a "wet paper bag"), but its nothing compared to a platemaller.
Its damage over time isn't really that great compared to some other ships.
Its main advantage is in its ability to have both a good passive tank and decent damage without much in terms of skill points.
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vile56
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Posted - 2006.05.10 01:24:00 -
[4]
caracal tanks like a paper bag a wet one.
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Skyler LaForge
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Posted - 2006.05.10 01:24:00 -
[5]
Really staying in range is the only downside. The Caracal is pretty thin, if it get's caught, which is easy as it's pretty slow, it's probably toast.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.05.10 01:25:00 -
[6]
Originally by: xTal Methodist Does that really matter when it can hit from 90km out, run the opposite direction, and kill you before you can get to its armor?
WTB 90km warp scrambler
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Imode
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Posted - 2006.05.10 01:25:00 -
[7]
What you fly is entirely up to you and how you set them up. ____________________________ Signature file size to large, please keep it under 24000 bytes - Petwraith How's this? -imo
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xTal Methodist
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Posted - 2006.05.10 01:25:00 -
[8]
Does that really matter when it can hit from 90km out, run the opposite direction, and kill you before you can get to its armor?
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ApollyN
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Posted - 2006.05.10 01:26:00 -
[9]
All cruisers are different but they all have a use (well, most). The caracal does indeed mount missile launchers that get good range but you could just as easily put artillery on a rupture and hit for some awesome range (I can manage 70 or so km). Plus, a thorax up close can be a fearsome pvp opponent.
Caldari tend to shield tank, the other three races normally use armour tanks but basically it all comes down to preference. Missiles dont take many skills to hit stuff at long range whereas high gunnery skills are needed to hit well at range so it takes a bit longer but amarr cruisers are just as good as caldari, just depends on the situation.
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Entropist
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Posted - 2006.05.10 01:27:00 -
[10]
So someone with experience with Amarr ships tell me.
What would you put on an Omen to combat a high-damage Caracal missile boat?
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.05.10 01:30:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/05/2006 01:30:34
Originally by: Entropist So someone with experience with Amarr ships tell me.
What would you put on an Omen to combat a high-damage Caracal missile boat?
I wouldn't. An omen would be shredded in half a minute by a properly set up Caracal.
A Maller would be much more effective. I'd fit 5 focused medium pulse with T2 ammo in highs (plus a medium nos), 2 heatsink IIs in lows, and the best armor tank I could manage in lows, maybe even a plate also (might need an RCU). Such a setup would probably tank the caracal long enough to break its shield. Never underestimate the tank of a Caracal though--I beat Orc A's maller in a duel because he set it up with a mere 3 small guns, not realizing that they wouldn't be able to break my passive shield recharge. Thats why I recommend the 5 med guns.
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Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.05.10 02:13:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/05/2006 02:14:32 For PvE (and you're talking about NPCs, so I suspect that's your purpose), there's no real reason not to pick up a Caracal. They're cheap, they're easy to use, and they're really effective against NPCs.
The Caracal gives you enough firepower to do any level II mission in your sleep, kill any cruiser rats (and probably more) effortlessly, and adapt easily to your needs (choice of damage type, heavy/assault, etc). Heavy missiles can one-salvo NPC frigates with a target painter and still hurt cruisers badly, while assaults are just obscenely good against them.
Your weapons don't need cap. So that leaves your entire cap supply available for ECM/shield boosting/AB/etc.
Then for tanking, you have the ultimate tank... 75km heavy missile range with even mediocre skills. Nothing in level II missions can even HIT you. NPC cruisers chase you in a futile effort while you run away and spam missiles back at them.
And if something does manage to get into range, you can easily fit a nice passive tank. And even with low skills and just tossing on a couple shield extenders, you can easily get 3,000+ shields. That'll buy you plenty of time to kill anything that gets into range.
For PvP, you obviously don't get it so easy. But the Caracal still has some nice advantages, and as a tech 1 cruiser, it's cheaper than dirt to fly.
But really, it's just a tech 1 cruiser. 1.5 million price tag for the ship + modules, so just give it a try. Fly them all, pick the one you like best.
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Ernest Graefenberg
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Posted - 2006.05.10 02:26:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 10/05/2006 02:27:16 Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 10/05/2006 02:26:13 If a single Caracal breaks a (lightly tanked) Mallers tank, you need a rethink. With 80% to all, a single repper (WEAAAAAAAAAAK) maller eats nearly 180hp/sec.
A Caracal with HM5/5 Arbys/Cruiser 5/Warhead up 5/Rapid Launch 5/MLO 5/2x BCU2 gets 198 DPS (smack me if quickfit says dramatically otherwise, was just done on the fly - but its probably still fairly accurate). So without furys its barely happening, and against doublereppers its not happening at all - and this is just to overcome the active tank itself. You've got another 1.5-5k armor to go through at whatever piddly rate you break it.
Against a decent doublerepper setup, you're not breaking the tank no matter what you do. Furys and max skills and all that - and that tank can be run perfectly with less skills than it takes to max that Caracal. Yeah, Amarr suck so hard :(
Oh wait, no. Some people are just incredibly bad.
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Outa Rileau
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Posted - 2006.05.10 02:48:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Outa Rileau on 10/05/2006 02:49:32 bah, you can get some crazy dps from an omen. 4 focused med pulse II, some heat sinks and repper/plate in lows... if the caracal isn't very well hardened it's going to die. Other than that Moa's and mallers can WAAAYY out-tank the caracal, but have a bit lesser dps(i think).
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Benglada
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Posted - 2006.05.10 03:38:00 -
[15]
Dark shikari, if you dont have t2 launchers and t2 bcus, a caracal doesent do very good damage.(not verse a 4 focused pulse 3 heatsink omen...) ---------------------------
Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2006.05.10 04:19:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 10/05/2006 04:21:36
Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 10/05/2006 02:27:16 Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 10/05/2006 02:26:13 If a single Caracal breaks a (lightly tanked) Mallers tank, you need a rethink. With 80% to all, a single repper (WEAAAAAAAAAAK) maller eats nearly 180hp/sec.
A Caracal with HM5/5 Arbys/Cruiser 5/Warhead up 5/Rapid Launch 5/MLO 5/2x BCU2 gets 198 DPS (smack me if quickfit says dramatically otherwise, was just done on the fly - but its probably still fairly accurate). So without furys its barely happening, and against doublereppers its not happening at all - and this is just to overcome the active tank itself. You've got another 1.5-5k armor to go through at whatever piddly rate you break it.
Against a decent doublerepper setup, you're not breaking the tank no matter what you do. Furys and max skills and all that - and that tank can be run perfectly with less skills than it takes to max that Caracal. Yeah, Amarr suck so hard :(
Oh wait, no. Some people are just incredibly bad.
Max skills, using Heavy Launcher IIs and Scourge with two ballistic control II is 232.1 DPS, doubt many maxed out people will be flying Caracals though.
Dual Medium Rep Maller gets ~71.1hp/s, which means he would need a minimal of 70% kinetic resist to tank a Caracal forever.
Fury Scourge Caracal (which I guess might be doable with a passive tank) does 278.52 DPS with max skills and two bcu II if anyone cares, that should break most tech I cruiser tanks.
It's too bad the Caracal doesn't get a rate of fire bonus, instead of kinetic missile damage, it would be more powerful.. also it needs assault missiles (come on ccp you promised, sorta!). ------ FPDOMS MINER KILLBOARD |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.05.10 10:12:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/05/2006 10:12:39
Originally by: Benglada Dark shikari, if you dont have t2 launchers and t2 bcus, a caracal doesent do very good damage.(not verse a 4 focused pulse 3 heatsink omen...)
I have T2 launchers with fury
Maxed out people do use caracals because they're very cost-effective. Cerberus = 230m, Caracal = 5m, its a no-brainer tbh
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.05.10 10:15:00 -
[18]
Caracals == Papers. They get torn up easily. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT! Corporate Consultation Services |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.05.10 10:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Caracals == Papers. They get torn up easily.
Maybe a badly fitted Caracal, yes. Just like Mallers are paper if they're fitted with reinforced bulkheads in lows instead of a tank.
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Frools
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Posted - 2006.05.10 10:43:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Frools on 10/05/2006 10:44:24
Originally by: Entropist So someone with experience with Amarr ships tell me.
What would you put on an Omen to combat a high-damage Caracal missile boat?
a friend in a cov ops so you can warp in right on top of him and unleash teh lasar pain!
4 focused pulse II + conflag + 3 hs2 on an omen with cruiser 5 is mucho fun
edit: shikari what kind of em/therm resists do you have on those 6000 shields?
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Astrum Ludus
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Posted - 2006.05.10 10:44:00 -
[21]
I know the fact that right now your Caldari flying mate is out doing you in every department is annoying/disheartening/seemingly unfair but stick at it, things get a lot better
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.05.10 10:48:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 10/05/2006 10:51:16
Originally by: Frools Edited by: Frools on 10/05/2006 10:44:24
Originally by: Entropist So someone with experience with Amarr ships tell me.
What would you put on an Omen to combat a high-damage Caracal missile boat?
a friend in a cov ops so you can warp in right on top of him and unleash teh lasar pain!
4 focused pulse II + conflag + 3 hs2 on an omen with cruiser 5 is mucho fun
edit: shikari what kind of em/therm resists do you have on those 6000 shields?
My anti-cruiser setup would be either:
Scrambler+2 L shield extender II +EM/therm hardener or Scrambler+2 L shield extender II + 2x jammer
So if I didn't jam like a lamer, I'd have about 50% EM and 60% thermal resist.
Generally, no gankship in EVE can beat a shield extended Caracal unless it has some sort of a tank. A completely untanked cruiser will last a grand total of 3 or 4 volleys.
I've faced a gank-thorax with Void (and killed it after losing about 4k shields), and since no cruiser in EVE can outdamage that IIRC, I don't think that an untanked gank-omen could break my shields either.
As I've said, the best way to defeat a Caracal is to use a hybrid gank/tank setup. It must have enough DPS to break the Caracal's shield and enough of a tank to survive the Caracal's onslaught of missiles. The Maller can do this, and the Vexor can do this also. I'm pretty sure the Moa might be able to do it too.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.05.10 11:04:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Caracals == Papers. They get torn up easily.
Maybe a badly fitted Caracal, yes. Just like Mallers are paper if they're fitted with reinforced bulkheads in lows instead of a tank.
IMHO, with a decent fitting, Caracals are still bad. Only good thing about the Caracal is that it is good in small gang support. Caracal is not a solo ship, I think.
Then again, I was thinking of PvP but OP meant NPCing so Caracal is OK for that. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT! Corporate Consultation Services |
Frools
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Posted - 2006.05.10 11:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
My anti-cruiser setup would be either:
Scrambler+2 L shield extender II +EM/therm hardener or Scrambler+2 L shield extender II + 2x jammer
yea, would almost certainly die to either of those, the 'tank' on my omen is a 400mm plate and a med rep
omen is an excellent ship in gangs tho imo, does a lot of damage and can do it out to useful range (~20km with scorch) i love flying mine, its great fun and very cheap
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2006.05.10 11:43:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Caracals == Papers. They get torn up easily.
only the active tanked fools ------------------------------ if you want peace, prepare for war ... ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well |
Twilight Moon
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Posted - 2006.05.10 11:46:00 -
[26]
Quote: What's the point in not getting a Caracal?
I dont like the look of them, I am not particularly well skilled in Missiles, and dont like relying in a 3 slot tank in PvP in a ship made of paper.
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sallyr
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Posted - 2006.05.10 11:48:00 -
[27]
my ACTIVE tanked carical beat a t2 fitted passive one . . .but only just lol . . but then when u have a large booster with an amp and a med cap booster with 800's in it .. . you going to tank like a ***** (\_/) (O.o) (> <)
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Kilo Paskaa
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Posted - 2006.05.10 11:56:00 -
[28]
Caracal is very good low tier cruiser. Better than Moa and cheaper, but still it isnt that great. Vexor or any higher tier ship can and will eat it alive in 1vs1. With good setup you can get nifty damage, but why to get 20mil setup in a ship that cant suck the damage?
In gang or fleet its damageoutput is nice and pain can be delivered up to 100km. Fit some ewar and you got nifty support cruiser. --------
As you can see, i pwned Kieron for iskies. |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.05.10 12:24:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Caracals == Papers. They get torn up easily.
Maybe a badly fitted Caracal, yes. Just like Mallers are paper if they're fitted with reinforced bulkheads in lows instead of a tank.
IMHO, with a decent fitting, Caracals are still bad. Only good thing about the Caracal is that it is good in small gang support. Caracal is not a solo ship, I think.
Then again, I was thinking of PvP but OP meant NPCing so Caracal is OK for that.
Do you even pay attention to my posts and/or the FIX killboard?
I use the Caracal soley as a solo PvP ship. It is nearly unbeatable in that regard.
As I've said, its main enemies are the Maller and Vexor, primarily the Maller.
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Degale
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Posted - 2006.05.10 12:25:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 10/05/2006 02:14:32 The Caracal gives you enough firepower to do any level II mission in your sleep, kill any cruiser rats (and probably more) effortlessly.
what first or second rank cruiser doesnt let you do this?
I mean if you want to do level 2s fast get a frigate, all the docking, undocking, warping, and loot collecting is much faster if your doing 1000m/s and can turn on a dime.
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