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Ohmy Fugod
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Posted - 2006.05.10 19:33:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ohmy Fugod on 10/05/2006 19:35:21 Okies so I was reading the forthcoming "balance" changes thread and noticed the following one:
Precision Missiles Cruise precision missiles * Damage 260hp * Explosion radius 200m
200m exp. rad. for t2 precision cruises. Thanks God I haven't started to train for covert ops yet - much less cruise specialization.
What's a stealth bomber supposed to be good at once this patch is applied?
- Killing a Frigate? With a 200m exp rad + Guided Missile Precision 5 that would be.. 150m explosion radius? Meaning you spend a 1k+ missile to deal the damage a standard, 5-isk missile would do (or even less)?
- Killing a Cruiser? It seems this would be the stealth bomber new, refined role. However, would it be the best, or at least good at it? Not that sure, drones could tear apart a covert ops in no time. An assault missiles/ low caliber guns Cruiser would give this ship a nice headache too. Sure, you can kill a pilot you catch with his pants down, but hey, you can pretty much dispose of anything with everything if caught with the pants down.
So, once this patch is applied, it seems Stealth Bombers will get the shaft, unless they include some ship bonii that alters explosion radius.
Otherwise, I don't see why you'd fit cruise launchers anymore, you're not going to shoot down a battleship or battlecruiser, and if you thought specializing in precision was the way to go, well it just isn't anymore.
Mainly, this ship had a role, a very specialized one, that already made them not to be exactly the preference of most pilots. Now it seems this role is narrowed down even more, with even less chances of success at it.
Anyone has any thoughts? Someone please tell me if I'm wrong and why, because I *really* want to fly a stealth bomber and be able to do something with it other than bookmarking instas.
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Wintermoon
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Posted - 2006.05.10 19:35:00 -
[2]
Stealth bombers have a hidden bonus to cruise missile explosive radius.
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Valhalior
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Posted - 2006.05.10 19:40:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Wintermoon Stealth bombers have a hidden bonus to cruise missile explosive radius.
True, with my current skills standard cruise missile on my Manticore has 40 m explosion radius. -------------------------------------------------------------
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Ohmy Fugod
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Posted - 2006.05.10 20:08:00 -
[4]
Oh, very nice, didn't know that. Thanks for your replies! Hidden bonus ftw!
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cytomatrix
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Posted - 2006.05.10 20:12:00 -
[5]
Edited by: cytomatrix on 10/05/2006 20:12:52 You better lock this thread or Bomber boogey girl will troll this thread. Back to topic, this nerf is not that bad. Without any skills your precision cruise with have 33.5 explosion radius(if my math is not wrong). With skills you should able to lower the explosion radius to 25 - 20.
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Valhalior
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Posted - 2006.05.10 20:32:00 -
[6]
Originally by: cytomatrix Edited by: cytomatrix on 10/05/2006 20:12:52 You better lock this thread or Bomber boogey girl will troll this thread. Back to topic, this nerf is not that bad. Without any skills your precision cruise with have 33.5 explosion radius(if my math is not wrong). With skills you should able to lower the explosion radius to 25 - 20.
Here is the correct calculation: 300 m exp rad for a standard cruise - 20 % (guided missile prec level 4) = 240 m 240 m * 0.167 (ship bonus) = 40 m.
All above in my case.
Anyway a standard cruise without skills will be about 50 m exp radius.
:) -------------------------------------------------------------
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Foulis
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Posted - 2006.05.10 20:58:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Foulis on 10/05/2006 21:01:21
Originally by: Valhalior
Originally by: cytomatrix Edited by: cytomatrix on 10/05/2006 20:12:52 You better lock this thread or Bomber boogey girl will troll this thread. Back to topic, this nerf is not that bad. Without any skills your precision cruise with have 33.5 explosion radius(if my math is not wrong). With skills you should able to lower the explosion radius to 25 - 20.
Here is the correct calculation: 300 m exp rad for a standard cruise - 20 % (guided missile prec level 4) = 240 m 240 m * 0.167 (ship bonus) = 40 m.
All above in my case.
Anyway a standard cruise without skills will be about 50 m exp radius.
:)
Damn, that's a nice bonus, 1/6th is pretty huge.
Edit: Ran some numbers the first guy is talking about precisions the second about standards if it wasn't clear to other people. Everyone is right! ----
Cake > Pie - Imaran
Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
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CivrGrrl19
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Posted - 2006.05.10 22:08:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
Okies so I was reading the forthcoming "balance" changes thread
Damnit... I can't FIND the thread. Where is it?
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.10 22:23:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/05/2006 22:25:03
Originally by: Wintermoon Stealth bombers have a hidden bonus to cruise missile explosive radius.
Which is completely and utterly ridiculous, yes.
A "stealth" bomber...should ditch the stealth gimmick, become as tough as an AF and mount 30-4 heavy rocket launchers.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Litus Arowar
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Posted - 2006.05.10 22:34:00 -
[10]
maya if you don't watch out you'll start sounding like a raving lunatic... just my opinion, but even when I agree with you it makes my posts seem less credible, since you have YET to ever budge from your original point of view, which is always the same: "inties are fine, destroyers, AFs, and bombers need to diversify, by making bombers anti-big ship, and completely deleting the destroyers"
sound about right? I've yet to see you concede to someone else's idea, and constantly troll all threads with even the slightest connection to the above four ship classes...
Originally by: cytomatrix Try sitting inside a big frickin ball filled up with glue and tubes stuck up your nose and your arse. Then compare RL and Eve.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.05.10 22:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: CivrGrrl19
Originally by: Ohmy Fugod
Okies so I was reading the forthcoming "balance" changes thread
Damnit... I can't FIND the thread. Where is it?
Second sticky from top, also second dev blog from top. New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards) |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.10 22:46:00 -
[12]
Litmus Arrow,
So sorry ...that I hold a consist idea across multiple threads. ...that you can't read and understand what I actually proposed for destroyers. ...I have sensible ideas for what bombers should do. ...you don't have a single deacent argument to disprove what I said.
I'm not the one howling to the moon.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Foulis
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Posted - 2006.05.11 00:09:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 10/05/2006 22:25:03
Originally by: Wintermoon Stealth bombers have a hidden bonus to cruise missile explosive radius.
Which is completely and utterly ridiculous, yes.
A "stealth" bomber...should ditch the stealth gimmick, become as tough as an AF and mount 30-4 heavy rocket launchers.
And become... a caracal? w00t! We get a caracal.
No, really, it would just be a caracal with a smaller sig radius. At least as a stealth unit it has a definable role. ----
Cake > Pie - Imaran
Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
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Zhon
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Posted - 2006.05.11 00:17:00 -
[14]
Well doing as you proposed would kinda of not fit the roll of a stealth bomber. The whole stealth bit i mean.
As it stands stealth bombers are really only useful in groups. This missile nerf (Yes it is a nerf) will probably make it impossible to 1 volley most intercepters making the single bomber gank setup rather pointless.
When the soft targets (Frigate class and Industrial class ships) are putting in plates and having well over 2k total hitponts it becomes a mute point to argue over a nerf that wasnt needed in the first place. This missile nerf for cruise missiles was purly set against the Raven and its abilty to kill frigates. From people constantly trying compare and balance missiles and Turrets. The Devs constantly say that they are totaly diffrent weapons sytems, but then turn around and nerf them into oblivion in the sake of game balance. Unfortunatly The Bombers are going to suffer from it.
My proposal is that the bombers use Heavy Missles but get a Huge damage bonus (upwards of 300%) and Missiles travel velocity bonus (%50-%100)as for the Hidden Bonus it should be adjusted to give precision Heavies an Exp Velocity around 20. This would allow for the missiles on the cruise level to be balanced out while not effecting the bomber class ship. Instead of modifing the missiles to fit the ship you should just modifie the ship to use the missiles to do what you want it to. In the end the Bombers would benifit this.
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Lygos
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Posted - 2006.05.11 02:04:00 -
[15]
It's fine I guess, but I didn't really see anything wrong with Bombers being a threat to inties that stuck around for a second volley.
It's not like they can warp cloaked. Let em do what they're designed to do.
Oh well, I hate toys that don't work without 50m isk in "the appropriate modules" anyway.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.11 02:09:00 -
[16]
Zhon, sure, it'd just be a bomber afterwards. That IS kinda the point of the suggestion :)
And yes, it's fixing being able to sweep other frigs away with the press of a few keys. Which is good.
Why should they have range? Heavy rockets would suit them far better (if tey were tougher), no more than 30km range, but able in packs to deverstate larger ships efficiently. But vulnrable as anything to other sorts of enemy frigates which heavy rockets would barely scratch.
And you wouldn't need a hidden bonus for them to viable.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Viktor Fyretracker
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Posted - 2006.05.11 03:38:00 -
[17]
stealth bombers should truely be stealth honestly, as in never show up on the overview or blink when locking/attacking basicly an observent player would see the ship in space but couldnt depend on the overview. but whats needed is a special weapon for bombers. "Space Bombs" or something. low or no damage to frigates, moderate to cruisers, high to battleships and total *****to capitols. basicly the larger the ship the more damage a space bomb would do. but have them be fairly short range. basicly make them true stealth bombers, hard to track on sensor systems but if engauged by an enemy they would be dead.
so a dread in siege mode would have alot to fear from the stealths however the intercepters guarding it would have no fear of being bomber sniped.
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.05.11 03:55:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 11/05/2006 03:57:45
Originally by: Maya Rkell A "stealth" bomber...should ditch the stealth gimmick, become as tough as an AF and mount 30-4 heavy rocket launchers.
And then we could call it a 'Hawk'.
BRILLIANT!
edit: Or maybe make the stealth bomber, actually stealth.
Let the damn thing warp cloaked, come out of warp, decloak, lock, fire, and run, or sit there and die under return fire.
The durability (lack of) of a stationary interceptor, the alpha strike of a BC or Battleship, and stealth. That'd be better than just turning them into some bastard-child AF or leaving them as their current 'wtf' setup.
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DarK
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Posted - 2006.05.11 04:43:00 -
[19]
It would be cool if they each mounted 4 torp launchers, were unable to kill small ships and were way faster and agile.
Ideally they would be anti-bs or Capital ship.
This combined with small weapons not doing as much damage to large ships, as suggested in a few other threads.
"stealth" bombers would then be more useful.
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Eudoxus
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Posted - 2006.05.11 05:22:00 -
[20]
Take away the stealth 'gimmick' - pass on that! The main reason I fly this, even though practically everything it seems other than t1 frigs is better than it, is because the whole stealth aspect makes it fun. If you take away stealth it is just a high damage low hit point AF. Give it a bunch of HP and then AF is obsolete.
They are so soft and squishy and slow it is just not sensible to try and engage big ships with them as it is instant death in a ship that the killer gets tons of killboard credit for. They could use some tweaking but losing the stealth aspect means you might as well remove them from the game - its the only ship worth a damn that can be like a klingon bird of prey (sorta). If it couldn't cloak, well I am training up for a Taranis and being like every other person wanting to play the 'i win/easy mode' ship that is in the same t2 frigate class (but utterly outclasses all the other t2 frigs).
The only catch I can see with the warp while cloaked suggestion (which I like) is that it would kill the covops ship. So, rather than that, give it monster speed while cloaked.
And yea, none of these cloaking ships should show up on local if they are cloaked, that is a fantastic idea. That would actually make bombers become immensely more interesting even though they still could/would be only good for shooting at frigs (which is fine by me).
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Nukeitall
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Posted - 2006.05.11 06:00:00 -
[21]
In most space games you have bombers fighting enemy capital ships...attacking subsystems and otherwise delivering weaponry that normal fighters just cannot.
Similarly, I think the stealth bomber should have a similar role. It should smush cruisers or really sting battleships while being vulnerable to smaller faster frigates. --------- >>Disclaimer: Anything Nukeitall says is not to be taken seriously. Mostly. |
Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.05.11 06:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nukeitall In most space games you have bombers fighting enemy capital ships...attacking subsystems and otherwise delivering weaponry that normal fighters just cannot.
Similarly, I think the stealth bomber should have a similar role. It should smush cruisers or really sting battleships while being vulnerable to smaller faster frigates.
I second this thought... if destroyable subsystems are ever added, bombers should definitely get that role. Give those uber-precision cruise missiles equal ability to either snipe frigates or snipe away a battleship's guns/other modules to leave it open to attack by other ships.
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Eudoxus
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Posted - 2006.05.11 07:17:00 -
[23]
If destroyable subsystems ever came around, it might be interesting to envision bombers in this role. But I don't think in practice it would happen. Big BS's with cruises can already do this role as well but with multitudes more hit points.
I am not sure where the idea of small ships (bombers) wailing on huge ships gets this appeal. You are never going to kill the big ship. And you are so soft and squishy and slow you will get killed yourself (bombers are not only vulnerable to big ships, they are vulnerable to small ships as well!). And with the cruise missiles not doing damage after you cloak, you can't do the much touted 'decloak, fire, recloak' thing to BS's from range. And up close, you are dead meat in these things - either get decloaked by a drone or an inty or outright destroyed by a smartbomb.
My experience with my bombers in fleets - no thank you! Now if you 'fixed' the missiles ability to hit after cloaking, then MAYBE that would change. But if you have to sit out in the open waiting for your cruise to hit from range, inevitably you are targetted and either die or have to run. These ships suck in fleets in my experience.
And as to 'make them be able to smush' cruisers. Well if they can smush a cruiser (which they definitely can't now) that would just make them that much more of an uber frigate/t2 frigate killer - which is what I use mine for now. Don't get me wrong, you want to up the damage, I will take it but we all know that won't come because the vast number of frigate fliers would complain about getting popped - inty pilots in particular I am sure given their huge numbers and not wanting to get popped by bombers given they currently generally own them. I really don't see these ships being anything other than good frigate poppers short of giving them a fat boost to survivability via shield/armor/hull points which does not really make sense to me given how I see them being small ships barely holding together in order to be able to shoot big guns.
So if bombers need something, it probably is not more damage. It is either something like warp while cloak (which I doubt) or more speed while cloaked (which I think is great). I know the dream of not showing up in local is not going to happen so won't try and pump that one again.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.05.11 07:19:00 -
[24]
Quote: In addition, stealth bombers' extremely advanced missile navigation subroutines are able to triangulate a cruise missile's trajectory in advance, resulting in a decreased factor of signature radius and making the missile more effective against smaller targets.
Since that was put in the stealth bombers description, its hardly been a hidden bonus, has it?
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Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.05.11 07:42:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Eudoxus If destroyable subsystems ever came around, it might be interesting to envision bombers in this role. But I don't think in practice it would happen. Big BS's with cruises can already do this role as well but with multitudes more hit points.
But they shouldn't be able to. A battleship doesn't get the obscene bonus to cruise missile precision that a bomber has. A battleship's cruise missiles are for long-range firepower, just accurate enough to hit the target ship. A bomber can put its entire salvo into a target the size of a small frigate, which is conveniently about the right size for a battleship gun.
So a battleship will be vastly better at actually killing another battleship, but a stealth bomber can sneak in and wound it (or in packs, cripple the ship... a bomber pack sneaks in, launches missiles, and 10 seconds later your battleship has no guns until it docks for repairs). That would be a priceless ability in fleets, at least ones small enough where calling a primary target isn't an insta-kill.
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Eudoxus
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Posted - 2006.05.11 07:45:00 -
[26]
Thats a very good point Hippoking...and also sorta makes it obvious the envisioned use from ccp is not big ships but small ones.
Now if only with all that 'advanced' ability with cruise missiles they could actually "triangulate a cruise missile trajectory in advance" and hit a target without needing to have the ship all naked and out in the open. Cruise missiles today fly on their own guidance, and yet in the far distance future with faster than light communication, warp drives, laser beams etc etc cruise missiles somehow got dumber along the way.
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Eudoxus
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Posted - 2006.05.11 07:57:00 -
[27]
That is a good point Merin and I like the explanation. BS just aiming to smack 'something' whereas a precision guided bomber aims for the soft spot or what have you. Makes a lot of sense.
Of course, we don't have modules to shoot at so it is kinda moot point for the time being. Until we actually have something like that in game (and a bomber can recloak after shooting so it doesn't just get spanked down in one shot after shooting its load), anything involving me in a bomber and someone in a battleship will be me being cloaked and watching or running away. I don't think that ability would make a bomber uber either - if 130km away and I shoot at you it takes about 30 seconds to hit something even if recloaked. By then everything warps away.
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2006.05.11 08:05:00 -
[28]
I think this hidden bonus is stupid.
Bombers, stealthed or not, are supposed to be always pwnd by Interceptors. When I see a thread asking whetther or not a stealth bomber can kill an inty in one salvo, it makes me sad.
As for those who whine that, because they can't solo kill a large ship, they sould be able to kill easily small ships, they should understand that stealth bombers are meant to be used in packs, concentrating against a single larger ship. To do that, they don't need an explosion velocity bonus.
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Boonaki
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Posted - 2006.05.11 08:09:00 -
[29]
I was really hoping for those bombs that were on the market before the stealth bombers were...
It was basicly a heavy missile with very short range and when it they hit a target it had a smart bomb like effect.
Sure what we have now has more uses, but I really wanted to do trench type runs on big ships.
Fear the Ibis of doom! |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.05.11 08:30:00 -
[30]
What would be the point of disabling a target's systems in any fleet operation when a volley would just obliterate it completely, leading to one enemy less in the scene? --*=*=*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
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