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IamBen
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Posted - 2006.05.11 00:54:00 -
[1]
Please read before flaming.
WCS: As of right now, theres no disadvantage to using them in small scale warfare. Take this for example.
A gunship like mega/apoc/geddon whatever puts on damage mods and stabs. Gets in fight with another ship with equalish setup. Check out instances below:
Option 1: Lets say stabbed ship wins fight. Other guy loses. Pretty straight forward. Option 2: Non-stabbed ship begins to win vs stabbed ship. Stabbed ship warps off. Guy who should have died survives. Stabbed ship in reality has gotten to pvp for fun without any risk.
WCS need to have some kind of penalty. If pilots want to be able to warp away from a fight then there offensive capabilities should be nerfed while in a fight.
Discuss/Flame away.
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Ebrenn Kerens
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Posted - 2006.05.11 01:02:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ebrenn Kerens on 11/05/2006 01:02:37 Oh great the daily WCS thread, well i guess there's already been a nos whine so it's good to complete the set.
"Option 1: Lets say stabbed ship wins fight. Other guy loses. Pretty straight forward. Option 2: Non-stabbed ship begins to win vs stabbed ship. Stabbed ship warps off. Guy who should have died survives. Stabbed ship in reality has gotten to pvp for fun without any risk."
You make it sound like WCS is some kind of exploit, the guy who got away should have died? i don't think so, the guy who was attacking should get some friends who can tackle and throw on a few extra points. Also please bare in mind that the reason the escapee was losing is because they sacrificed slots that could have been used for damage mods or armour tanking so they could fit WCS. I guess that's a penalty right there...
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IamBen
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Posted - 2006.05.11 01:07:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Ebrenn Kerens Edited by: Ebrenn Kerens on 11/05/2006 01:02:37 Oh great the daily WCS thread, well i guess there's already been a nos whine so it's good to complete the set.
"Option 1: Lets say stabbed ship wins fight. Other guy loses. Pretty straight forward. Option 2: Non-stabbed ship begins to win vs stabbed ship. Stabbed ship warps off. Guy who should have died survives. Stabbed ship in reality has gotten to pvp for fun without any risk."
You make it sound like WCS is some kind of exploit, the guy who got away should have died? i don't think so, the guy who was attacking should get some friends who can tackle and throw on a few extra points. Also please bare in mind that the reason the escapee was losing is because they sacrificed slots that could have been used for damage mods or armour tanking so they could fit WCS. I guess that's a penalty right there...
But its not a penalty, because he can warp away. So in a one vs one, it is a win win situation.
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Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2006.05.11 01:16:00 -
[4]
OK. Let's all agree not to equip stabbers or scramblers and promise to stick around to fight each other to the bitter end no matter how stupid it may be to do so. And we'll all sing Kumbaya while we do it.
____________________________________________________________________
Open skies policies are signs of strength and courage, not weakness. |
Ebrenn Kerens
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Posted - 2006.05.11 01:21:00 -
[5]
well the idea that WCS should be made a high slot item has already been discussed on these forums, off course you didn't add to one of those threads (which can be found quite easily by using the search function in the top right hand corner of the eve-online site). Instead you started a new thread which added absolutely nothing to the WCS discussion.
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Lord Slater
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Posted - 2006.05.11 01:32:00 -
[6]
Originally by: IamBen Please read before flaming.
WCS: As of right now, theres no disadvantage to using them in small scale warfare. Take this for example.
A gunship like mega/apoc/geddon whatever puts on damage mods and stabs. Gets in fight with another ship with equalish setup. Check out instances below:
Option 1: Lets say stabbed ship wins fight. Other guy loses. Pretty straight forward. Option 2: Non-stabbed ship begins to win vs stabbed ship. Stabbed ship warps off. Guy who should have died survives. Stabbed ship in reality has gotten to pvp for fun without any risk.
WCS need to have some kind of penalty. If pilots want to be able to warp away from a fight then there offensive capabilities should be nerfed while in a fight.
Discuss/Flame away.
You suck!!!!!!
At making NEW topics with NEW ideas.
YARRR HAHAHA im the happy pirate YARRRR
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.11 01:38:00 -
[7]
Blah blah.... 10% range and 10% explosion velocity penalty per WCS.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Beringe
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Posted - 2006.05.11 01:50:00 -
[8]
Originally by: IamBen Please read before flaming.
I read it. Now comes the flame.
Like 99% of all those WCS thread starters, you are adding nothing to the discussion. Your points have been made a dozen times before, and your arguments are identical to the majority population of those who are against WCSes.
Please - don't post a new thread if you have nothing new to say. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Lygos
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Posted - 2006.05.11 01:51:00 -
[9]
Argument: Stabs need to increase a fixed warp out time lull on aligned Sniper BS so covops tactics are a lil more effective.
Counterargument: The profit of interdictor bpos stays higher.
Well I'm just torn up over it.
I may just stop fitting warp scramblers to setups altogether and fit more EW. Warp out all you like. Just give us the scan probe bpo ccp, even if it's 0.0 or POS factory only and it'll all be good.
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Morrigan Starlover
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Posted - 2006.05.11 03:36:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Morrigan Starlover on 11/05/2006 03:37:40
Originally by: IamBen Please read before flaming.
WCS: As of right now, theres no disadvantage to using them in small scale warfare. Take this for example.
A gunship like mega/apoc/geddon whatever puts on damage mods and stabs. Gets in fight with another ship with equalish setup. Check out instances below:
Option 1: Lets say stabbed ship wins fight. Other guy loses. Pretty straight forward. Option 2: Non-stabbed ship begins to win vs stabbed ship. Stabbed ship warps off. Guy who should have died survives. Stabbed ship in reality has gotten to pvp for fun without any risk.
WCS need to have some kind of penalty. If pilots want to be able to warp away from a fight then there offensive capabilities should be nerfed while in a fight.
Discuss/Flame away.
I agree, but also do the same thing with scramblers.
Say someone roles without a scramber or a wcs. They should have an damage advantage over scramblers too. Besides the small-scale PvP in eve is a freakin joke. Gatecamps and gangbangs. Counterstrike is better.
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Hitomi Ayame
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Posted - 2006.05.11 03:41:00 -
[11]
Originally by: IamBen
...yeah, sorry.
If you were really sorry, you wouldnt have started this thread in the first place.
So you think WCS should have a penalty to a ship's offensive capablities? Get in line, right behind everyone else. - - - 'Till human voices wake us, and we drown.
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Viktor Fyretracker
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Posted - 2006.05.11 03:46:00 -
[12]
id rather let them just nerf WCS badly but then give all industrial class ships +1 warp power per level of industrial.
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Pointless Vengence
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Posted - 2006.05.11 04:16:00 -
[13]
A Constructive Reply:
Argument:
Originally by: IamBen
WCS: As of right now, theres no disadvantage to using them in small scale warfare . .. .
Counter Argument: You are using up a low slot. This is a disadvantage because it restricts the use of tanking and firepower augmenting mods.
Example Given:
Originally by: IamBen
Option 1: Lets say stabbed ship wins fight. Other guy loses. Pretty straight forward. Option 2: Non-stabbed ship begins to win vs stabbed ship. Stabbed ship warps off. Guy who should have died survives. Stabbed ship in reality has gotten to pvp for fun without any risk.
Counter To The Example: The situation you are proposing suggests that retreat isn't an option. It also suggests that all combat is consensual. Both are not the case. The ability to evade, retreat and regroup is an integral part of combat. There are no rules to war, if you want to stick around and die on principal then go for it. Others, however, would most likely save their resources to fight another day.
Argument:
Originally by: IamBen
WCS need to have some kind of penalty. If pilots want to be able to warp away from a fight then there offensive capabilities should be nerfed while in a fight.
Counter Argument: As shown, WCS using ships sacrifice a slot to use the mod. They also apparently lose standing according to your rules of combat. If anything a system should be in place which indicates those who retreat from combat rather then allow themselves to be blown up. That way people will know who to go after and not have to fit a warp scrambler.
Request:
Originally by: IamBen
Discuss/Flame away.
Response: Sure. I think that all further responses to any type of WCS nerf thread should include a reference to a Wisconsin Cheddar Sticks. It may not be the most elegant type of cheese, but I think Wisconsin Cheddar Sticks go great with this particular type of wine.
When will people realize that posting threads of this type is . . .
-Pointless
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Foulis
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Posted - 2006.05.11 04:19:00 -
[14]
gimme an S, T, F, U! With the damn WCS threads. It's been covered, it's been recovered, it's been flamed about from EVERY ******* ANGLE. ----
Cake > Pie - Imaran
Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
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Alliaanna Dalaii
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Posted - 2006.05.11 07:18:00 -
[15]
I myself am well up for stabs being given ridiculous penalties to a combat fitted ship.... can we all say -25% RoF per stab. BUT
In your argument the risk-free stabbed up ship does have risks. If he does indeed find himself tackled (1 frig can catch most stabbed battleships if they want any form of dmg mods/tank) then to put it simply.... he's *****ed . His setup is gimped and if the other bs has half a clue its won.
Alliaanna
Official Follower of =-= Royal Hiigaran Navy =-= |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.05.11 07:22:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lygos I may just stop fitting warp scramblers to setups altogether and fit more EW. Warp out all you like. Just give us the scan probe bpo ccp, even if it's 0.0 or POS factory only and it'll all be good.
because that will help!
oh, wait
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.05.11 07:28:00 -
[17]
I generally fly around in a -6 stiletto atm so stabs aren't really much of an issue ;)
Originally by: Fi T'Zeh I'm a complete tosser.
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Serj Darek
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Posted - 2006.05.11 07:40:00 -
[18]
Originally by: IamBen Please read before flaming.
WCS: As of right now, theres no disadvantage to using them in small scale warfare. Take this for example.
A gunship like mega/apoc/geddon whatever puts on damage mods and stabs. Gets in fight with another ship with equalish setup. Check out instances below:
Option 1: Lets say stabbed ship wins fight. Other guy loses. Pretty straight forward. Option 2: Non-stabbed ship begins to win vs stabbed ship. Stabbed ship warps off. Guy who should have died survives. Stabbed ship in reality has gotten to pvp for fun without any risk.
WCS need to have some kind of penalty. If pilots want to be able to warp away from a fight then there offensive capabilities should be nerfed while in a fight.
Discuss/Flame away.
Fix the Typhoon description! 3 years in the making!
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.11 07:44:00 -
[19]
This is the problem!
5 geddens with megapulse + 3dmg mods +2 plates +3wcs VS 5 other non stabed BS
geddens warp in or jump in, alling, when ur into deep armor hit warp off, rinse and repete!! basicly a stabed BS has done a good job [good dmg to the enermy] and then warped. this is the sort of thing thats ****e -------------------Sig-----------------------
Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen |
Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.05.11 07:49:00 -
[20]
Option 3: the non-stabbed ship, since its pilot actually cares about not letting his target warp away, is equipped with a decent tackler setup instead of just a token single warp scrambler. The target is still pinned in place, and dies even faster because of useless WCS taking up valuable slots that might have allowed it to win.
I don't know why this is so hard to understand. It's a trivial task to fit enough scramble strength that no ship in the game can fit enough WCS to escape. If you want to keep them from getting away, use some common sense and tactics and fit more than a token scrambler. If your prey warps away, it is entirely your fault. Not the WCS, your lazy tactics.
Every single WCS complaint I've seen is from lazy people who just don't understand this. Stop whining about them and accept that you don't get high rewards for zero effort.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.05.11 07:56:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Option 3: the non-stabbed ship, since its pilot actually cares about not letting his target warp away, is equipped with a decent tackler setup instead of just a token single warp scrambler. The target is still pinned in place, and dies even faster because of useless WCS taking up valuable slots that might have allowed it to win.
I don't know why this is so hard to understand. It's a trivial task to fit enough scramble strength that no ship in the game can fit enough WCS to escape. If you want to keep them from getting away, use some common sense and tactics and fit more than a token scrambler. If your prey warps away, it is entirely your fault. Not the WCS, your lazy tactics.
Every single WCS complaint I've seen is from lazy people who just don't understand this. Stop whining about them and accept that you don't get high rewards for zero effort.
is that a joke? -2 scramblers are only effective on interceptors that have the speed to get into range. on anything else the target will have warped by the time you get within range
Originally by: Fi T'Zeh I'm a complete tosser.
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Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.05.11 08:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sarmaul is that a joke? -2 scramblers are only effective on interceptors that have the speed to get into range. on anything else the target will have warped by the time you get within range
Ever hear of Warp Disruptor IIs? Same 20km scramble range, -2 strength. If you're too lazy to train the skill for them (which isn't even a level V requirement!), don't whine and demand WCS nerfs to make up for your lazyness.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.11 08:12:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Gronsak on 11/05/2006 08:14:40 Edited by: Gronsak on 11/05/2006 08:13:10
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Sarmaul is that a joke? -2 scramblers are only effective on interceptors that have the speed to get into range. on anything else the target will have warped by the time you get within range
Ever hear of Warp Disruptor IIs? Same 20km scramble range, -2 strength. If you're too lazy to train the skill for them (which isn't even a level V requirement!), don't whine and demand WCS nerfs to make up for your lazyness.
sarm you lazy bum, use the warp disruptor T2 -------------------Sig-----------------------
Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen |
R31D
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Posted - 2006.05.11 08:27:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Gronsak Edited by: Gronsak on 11/05/2006 08:14:40 Edited by: Gronsak on 11/05/2006 08:13:10
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Sarmaul is that a joke? -2 scramblers are only effective on interceptors that have the speed to get into range. on anything else the target will have warped by the time you get within range
Ever hear of Warp Disruptor IIs? Same 20km scramble range, -2 strength. If you're too lazy to train the skill for them (which isn't even a level V requirement!), don't whine and demand WCS nerfs to make up for your lazyness.
sarm you lazy bum, use the warp disruptor T2
Damn, why didn't I think of using that >.<
On the other hand, to the guy saying we should fit more warp scrams, fitting multiple scrams will gimp your setup a lot more than an equal number of WCS
Free bumpage for all |
Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.05.11 08:31:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gronsak Edited by: Gronsak on 11/05/2006 08:14:40 Edited by: Gronsak on 11/05/2006 08:13:10
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Sarmaul is that a joke? -2 scramblers are only effective on interceptors that have the speed to get into range. on anything else the target will have warped by the time you get within range
Ever hear of Warp Disruptor IIs? Same 20km scramble range, -2 strength. If you're too lazy to train the skill for them (which isn't even a level V requirement!), don't whine and demand WCS nerfs to make up for your lazyness.
sarm you lazy bum, use the warp disruptor T2
I'm missing the joke here... the items database lists them, the in-game market lists them, is this just another case of CCP taunting us with items that don't really exist?
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.05.11 08:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Gronsak Edited by: Gronsak on 11/05/2006 08:14:40 Edited by: Gronsak on 11/05/2006 08:13:10
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Sarmaul is that a joke? -2 scramblers are only effective on interceptors that have the speed to get into range. on anything else the target will have warped by the time you get within range
Ever hear of Warp Disruptor IIs? Same 20km scramble range, -2 strength. If you're too lazy to train the skill for them (which isn't even a level V requirement!), don't whine and demand WCS nerfs to make up for your lazyness.
sarm you lazy bum, use the warp disruptor T2
I'm missing the joke here... the items database lists them, the in-game market lists them, is this just another case of CCP taunting us with items that don't really exist?
they are not ingame, although there are a few wcs t2 ingame -------------------Sig-----------------------
Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen |
Merin Ryskin
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Posted - 2006.05.11 08:50:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 11/05/2006 08:55:09
Originally by: Gronsak they are not ingame, although there are a few wcs t2 ingame
I see.
But the basic point is still true... tackling is easy if you focus your strategy on it. Mount a full rack of scramblers, work with an interceptor, have an interdictor anywhere nearby, etc. It's very easy to out-scramble the most dedicated WCS user, you just have to work at it a bit.
And that's how it should be... if your opponent dedicates considerable resources to saying "I want to be able to escape" (and mass WCS use does mean sacrifices elsewhere), why should you be able to negate that easily? Most of the posts I see have a very strong hint of "my single scrambler isn't an 'I win' button 100% of the time", and there is no reason to satisfy those whiners at the expense of everyone else.
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MrRookie
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Posted - 2006.05.11 09:36:00 -
[28]
Originally by: IamBen Please read before flaming.
WCS: As of right now, theres no disadvantage to using them in small scale warfare. Take this for example.
A gunship like mega/apoc/geddon whatever puts on damage mods and stabs. Gets in fight with another ship with equalish setup. Check out instances below:
Option 1: Lets say stabbed ship wins fight. Other guy loses. Pretty straight forward. Option 2: Non-stabbed ship begins to win vs stabbed ship. Stabbed ship warps off. Guy who should have died survives. Stabbed ship in reality has gotten to pvp for fun without any risk.
WCS need to have some kind of penalty. If pilots want to be able to warp away from a fight then there offensive capabilities should be nerfed while in a fight.
Discuss/Flame away.
Well there is no disadvantages using a scrambler either. There is not realy any disadvantages using guns shieldboosters either. On the other hand there are counters for most mods. In this case, more scramblers etc. What exactly are you looking for? If a raven with 5 WCS wins vs a raven with 5 pdus/dmg mods, then **** practicaly happens... he sucks. Who realy cares? _____________________________________________
\o/ I got a siggy...
WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877 |
Forsch
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Posted - 2006.05.11 09:41:00 -
[29]
A 5 WCS Raven would most likely win against a 3 warp scrambler raven.
Forsch Defender of the empire
More love for side factions! |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.05.11 09:43:00 -
[30]
Yet another thredÖ
Arguments are old, counter arguments older. Our tacklers lack mid slots. That's not an argument, that's a fact. Keep your stabs, but give our tacklers more mid slots. New sig coming soonÖ Drone musing (MC-boards) |
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