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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
989
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Posted - 2014.04.14 08:57:00 -
[121] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Zappity wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Simple solution...if you can't afford to lose +5s don't fly with them...? Either you fail at comprehension or you didn't read past the title. Well it is in fact far worse than that. The reason you give for change is as follows: I do not want to PvP in my learning implants because I am l33t.Hardly a valid reason. Oh and you'd do far better, by removing the hate line in the OP and title. I never said it was a valid reason and that was meant to be tongue in cheek. But consider that I could have replaced that with something about implants for mining yield (a mining ship not out there getting ganked), warp speed for freighters (another ship not out there getting ganked), whatever a mission runner might use their implants for (I have no idea, sorry), etc etc.
The only truly solo activity I can think of in game is the skill queue. Everything else I can think of involves some level of interaction: markets, PvP, just flying around in space, whatever. Training skills occurs entirely without player interactions. This should never be promoted above activities which do result in interaction.
The current situation is that if you want to maximise skill training, a truly solo activity, you have to reduce efficiency in some other aspect of your gameplay. This discourages the other gameplay, to whatever degree. Whether this is sound logic from the player is irrelevant - I have already said that this is NOT a good reason to stay docked. But it still happens.
And so it is not good design. Give us an alternative to maximise skill training without gimping other playstyles. Give us boosters! Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
357
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Posted - 2014.04.14 09:51:00 -
[122] - Quote
I have to say that if a player doesn't undock because of implants and you bring in boosters instead (thus nerfing the risk/reqard of players who *will* undock in said implants) the players who won't undock will still stay docked. They are risk averse. They don't want to lose stuff at any cost. Next they would complain about clone expense and why do we have to pay for them (and peope already are complaining about it). Or some other reason.
Those who do not undock will play the game in the same way no matter what you nerf to make it more palatable for them. As I pointed out earlier the difference in learning time between +3's and +5's is about 5 days or so. What is so important to do in that 5 days that means a player who doesn't want to lose +5's can't just do what they currently do for less than a week?
Crap grammar and syntax here before the academic police jump on me :D I'm just typing quickly in work :) |
iskflakes
905
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Posted - 2014.04.14 10:07:00 -
[123] - Quote
If I understand this right, the OP is saying: Why should I have to choose between learning and PVP implants? The choice encourages people to jump clone to a +5 set, which reduces interaction.
If this is what he is saying, then I agree with him. It's a stupid choice that players are forced to make, and speaking from personal experience it has caused decreased player interaction. If a player has enough money for a +5 set AND a pirate implant set, they should be able to get the benefits of both simultaneously.
I don't like the idea of attribute boosters though. I would rather see the learning bonus on the pirate implant sets changed to +5. That way everybody can stay in their PVP sets all the time and not be forced into making a tradeoff between PVP success and training time, which is an artificial one.
An alternative solution is to make learning and PVP implants occupy different slots, so that if somebody wants to pay for both then they can. - |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
357
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Posted - 2014.04.14 10:13:00 -
[124] - Quote
it isn't an artificial choice though by that measure...you are choosing better PvP performance over increased learning time. If the player with learning implants in then chooses not to undock they should reconsider the level of learning implants they are willing to lose. Again people seem to be hung up on how many SP they have and that isn't the defining attribute in the game, only the SP in the skills you are currently using count in any way. The difference between using +3's and +5's is not that much. Whilst it is nice to train a little faster it isn't worth it if it'll stop you from undocking. |
Little Blackjack
Money Savers Inc
10
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Posted - 2014.04.14 11:45:00 -
[125] - Quote
Being a carebear, I prolly am exactly that sort of clientel, the OP aims at. I do have some JCs and rarely do PvP cause I dont wanna loose my +5 ratings vs +3 ratings for longer time.
But instead of learning boosters, the whole could be solved if the cooldown for jumps wouldn't be 24h but much shorter. For that, the skill which now reduces this value to max 19h (1h per lvl), could be modified for a e.g. 4h per level.
This would enable a jump in a lvl5 skill every 4h and be much more interesting to jump into pvp for me. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
357
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Posted - 2014.04.14 11:58:00 -
[126] - Quote
Little Blackjack wrote:Being a carebear, I prolly am exactly that sort of clientel, the OP aims at. I do have some JCs and rarely do PvP cause I dont wanna loose my +5 ratings vs +3 ratings for longer time.
But instead of learning boosters, the whole could be solved if the cooldown for jumps wouldn't be 24h but much shorter. For that, the skill which now reduces this value to max 19h (1h per lvl), could be modified for a e.g. 4h per level.
This would enable a jump in a lvl5 skill every 4h and be much more interesting to jump into pvp for me.
Agreed, I proposed the same in one of the various threads on this subject, although I think I made it reduced by 3 hours per level, phr cooldown minimum so the average player would probably have to trade a days play for a days lower training, but not be so constrained by JC times. 1 hour per level just seems way too low for that skill. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1883
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Posted - 2014.04.14 14:25:00 -
[127] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Zappity wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Simple solution...if you can't afford to lose +5s don't fly with them...? Either you fail at comprehension or you didn't read past the title. Well it is in fact far worse than that. The reason you give for change is as follows: I do not want to PvP in my learning implants because I am l33t.Hardly a valid reason. Oh and you'd do far better, by removing the hate line in the OP and title.
I agree with you on that point but, I think the intention is that these prevent playing the game like learning skills did. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Proof Highsec reward needs to be nerfed: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqC-BTui2uSGdDlxa2dWOG5ieHB0QXBVWW82bGN5TFE&usp=sharing |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
991
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Posted - 2014.04.14 21:01:00 -
[128] - Quote
Decreasing jump clone time is a solution but would complicate other areas of the game. I thunk it is already far too easy to cross the map and further decreasing jump clone time would just enhance power projection further. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Nariya Kentaya
Phoenix funds
1208
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Posted - 2014.04.14 23:36:00 -
[129] - Quote
+4's are just as good as +5's, unless your so super anal about your sp'hour its physically painful to get less, in that case though i recommend going back to raiding in WoW.
as for your cowardess tor eamin docked because of implants. I routinely PvP in +4's, because i want the training speed, but im not going to suffocate on the stench of cowards in station. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
138
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Posted - 2014.04.15 01:16:00 -
[130] - Quote
to all those whining about 'risk averse players' and nullsec gouging the market, please look at the (updated) front post:
the gas would come from low, thus preventing too much of a monopoly the OP claims to fly PVP with more expensive implants than +5's (I presume this is something like a snake set or w/e) he also claims to know how to keep his pod safe (mostly) the boosters would cap out at a certain attribute max so +5's wouldn't benefit from using them +5's have taken a month or two off my skill plan to date, and I've had them a smidgen over a year (I also remap, which probably helps....) this is not about being able to JC back and forth quickly - it's about being able to swap to your uber PVP clone without suffering too many learning penalties for those times when you have half an hour or so....
I think OP's forgotten that at some point these boosters will finish, and you're in the same boat - and no - I do not think that having them last for a week or so is viable. For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
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Johm Luck
Perkone Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2014.04.18 11:15:00 -
[131] - Quote
Little Blackjack wrote:Being a carebear, I prolly am exactly that sort of clientel, the OP aims at. I do have some JCs and rarely do PvP cause I dont wanna loose my +5 ratings vs +3 ratings for longer time.
But instead of learning boosters, the whole could be solved if the cooldown for jumps wouldn't be 24h but much shorter. For that, the skill which now reduces this value to max 19h (1h per lvl), could be modified for a e.g. 4h per level.
This would enable a jump in a lvl5 skill every 4h and be much more interesting to jump into pvp for me.
Zappity wrote:Decreasing jump clone time is a solution but would complicate other areas of the game. I thunk it is already far too easy to cross the map and further decreasing jump clone time would just enhance power projection further.
Johm Luck wrote:...swap to clones in the same station without triggering the cooldown.
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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
713
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Posted - 2014.04.18 11:43:00 -
[132] - Quote
So summarising this entire thread and those that spawned it.
Those who have the skills are in favour of training being a long rewarding progression to eve nirvana.
Those who are yet to gain the skills would like the training to be shorter by whatever means can be made possible, either by reducing the time needed or with a mechanic that maximises training speed.
Which method will result in player retention or gain, and which will maintain the status quo?
Will a change similar to removing learning skills, make the game worthless for existing players? Will a change similar to removing learning skills, make the game more enjoyable for players under 1 or 2 years of game age.
Sometimes we avoid asking the right questions and will not listen to them when asked, because we are afraid of the answer.
Maybe we should be either asking the right question or be willing to listen to the answer rather than hiding from it by finding fault with the mechanic or the questioners fitness to ask it in the first place. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
369
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Posted - 2014.04.18 13:12:00 -
[133] - Quote
To answer this point...I am not one with massive SP, only been here just over 6 months. I am perfectly happy with SP rate and implant levels (along with remap limits) as they stand. It is not slow to learn a new career, it does however take time to perfect it which is as it should be. There are very few careers you cannot turn to relatively quickly, and usually those that take longer are because they are very specialized which again is as it should be.
I like the choice I get from remaps and implants. I choose to fly in +3's as a compromise between cost and SP rate. I have the choice to do so because of the current system. People should make their choice and live with the consequences...you can always make another choice if you aren't happy with your current one. |
Burneddi
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
46
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Posted - 2014.04.18 17:18:00 -
[134] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Decreasing jump clone time is a solution but would complicate other areas of the game. I thunk it is already far too easy to cross the map and further decreasing jump clone time would just enhance power projection further. Reducing JC timers would hardly increase power projection. It's already possible to just podjump around, which is what many/most nullsec alliances actually do. Podjump costs are almost completely negligible even for >100m SP pilots, that is to say they're an annoying and dumb inconvenience to pay but not something that will discourage people from podjumping to that stratop if they have to. If you have expensive implants, just jump to an empty clone and podjump.
What reducing JC timers would do is increase convenience. The current clone/attribute system greatly disfavours some groups of people and favours others -- clone costs are completely negligible to people with less than 70-ish million SP and don't really discourage people from podjumping, while they discourage pilots with 150m SP from going on drunken zero-fugs-given roams in T1 frigates into nullsec because their empty pod will cost more than the entire fleet combined (which I repeat isn't a prohibitive cost, but a principally annoying one).
Additionally, the implants/attributes system disfavours people with low SP who really need those critical skills to get into the game properly, while the effect is greatly diminished for people with high SP. The starter pack learning boosters help this to some degree, but I would consider it somewhat of a bandaid fix to a fundamentally illogical system. For a veteran pilot a 4-day train is a short one, but for a newbie fresh and excited about the game it can feel like an eternity, especially if it's the thing keeping them from progressing to the next step.
Personally I feel like skill training time should be a constant, same for everyone, or alternatively favour fresh characters instead of old or rich characters who can afford learning implants. SP is the most fundamental concept in Eve, and the way attributes interact with it feels kind of out of place and outdated. The whole remap/implant system feels like it was specifically built to give veteran players training alts an edge, while shafting newbies who waste all their remaps and put SP into mining.
As a side note, removing learning skills had to be the best thing CCP's ever done to fix the training system. Back when I started and they were still in the game I actually took a month's (or two's) break just logging in to train learning skills so I wouldn't be rump ravaged trying to train other skills. That definitely wasn't my fondest memory of Eve (but getting the "free" SP later when they were finally removed felt kinda good), and I wouldn't mind another change like the removal of learning skills, be that removing clone grades altogether or doing something about the silly attribute system. |
Phaade
Perimeter Defense Systems Templis CALSF
157
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Posted - 2014.04.18 17:42:00 -
[135] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Loraine Gess wrote:Or just learn how to warp away when your ship explodes... I use other implants in my PvP clones. I know how to warp away. Most of the time. It is just a generally bad mechanic in that it discourages PvP. It can be worked around but why have it in the first place? Surely you want to encourage PvP rather than discourage it.
Amazing how most people fail at reading comprehension.
You are 100% correct, learning implants do nothing but encourage risk aversion. Even if you are loaded, you still don't want to pvp with a full set of +5's and run into that smartbombing Maller.
In my opinion, learning implants are as outdated as learning skills were. They don't add content to the game, they remove it.
A solution could be the way that jump clone cooldowns work, (once per 20 hour period rather than jumping, then starting a 20 hour cooldown), but that might cause imbalances elsewhere.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
372
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Posted - 2014.04.18 17:52:00 -
[136] - Quote
Burneddi wrote: Additionally, the implants/attributes system disfavours people with low SP who really need those critical skills to get into the game properly, while the effect is greatly diminished for people with high SP.
I have to disagree here...I've been playing just over six months and have been building control towers for 4 months, and inventing tech II goods for two, this is whilst still running missions. I made choices that worked out for me and in no way believe that the progression in careers I can perform is slow |
Johm Luck
Perkone Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2014.04.18 19:54:00 -
[137] - Quote
This has nothing to do with SP. It's about whether the movement and implant switching abilities of jump clones should be separated. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
112
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Posted - 2014.04.18 20:40:00 -
[138] - Quote
I usually have +3s on all my characters PvP or otherwise.
Getting rid of something because X does not want to use it because they are afraid of losing it in PvP while Y is a station dweller, is just plain silly. |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1016
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Posted - 2014.04.18 20:59:00 -
[139] - Quote
Petrified wrote:I usually have +3s on all my characters PvP or otherwise.
Getting rid of something because X does not want to use it because they are afraid of losing it in PvP while Y is a station dweller, is just plain silly. ...and another one. This has nothing to do with losing implants. Go and actually read the OP. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
112
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Posted - 2014.04.18 21:43:00 -
[140] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Petrified wrote:I usually have +3s on all my characters PvP or otherwise.
Getting rid of something because X does not want to use it because they are afraid of losing it in PvP while Y is a station dweller, is just plain silly. ...and another one. This has nothing to do with losing implants. Go and actually read the OP.
Some of us are responding to more recent postings and the current iteration of the thread and idea.
Besides, I've posted regarding the OP prior.... many pages ago. |
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
113
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Posted - 2014.04.18 21:58:00 -
[141] - Quote
Petrified wrote:Zappity wrote:Petrified wrote:I usually have +3s on all my characters PvP or otherwise.
Getting rid of something because X does not want to use it because they are afraid of losing it in PvP while Y is a station dweller, is just plain silly. ...and another one. This has nothing to do with losing implants. Go and actually read the OP. Some of us are responding to more recent postings and the current iteration of the thread and idea. Besides, I've posted regarding the OP prior.... many pages ago.
oh... but wait... no wonder this thread looked so familiar! It looks like this one.
So... all things considered, my thoughts between the two are the same: no need to get rid of learning implants (which I know the OP is not proposing) and having learning boosters added would be peachy. Cause it would cap my +3s across the board.
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Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1016
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Posted - 2014.04.18 23:04:00 -
[142] - Quote
Petrified wrote:Zappity wrote:Petrified wrote:I usually have +3s on all my characters PvP or otherwise.
Getting rid of something because X does not want to use it because they are afraid of losing it in PvP while Y is a station dweller, is just plain silly. ...and another one. This has nothing to do with losing implants. Go and actually read the OP. Some of us are responding to more recent postings and the current iteration of the thread and idea. Besides, I've posted regarding the OP prior.... many pages ago. Oh, sorry. Fair enough and carry on! Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
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