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Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
117
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Posted - 2014.04.13 11:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yea, it's a couple days old news for those in the US, but...
This [url]http://news.yahoo.com/u-agency-ends-nevada-cattle-roundup-releases-herd-003456278.html?vp=1[/url]
...and for those who beleive it was simply about back payments or some turtle...
This [url]http://www.infowars.com/hours-after-infowars-breaks-sen-reidchinese-connection-to-land-grab-blm-backs-down/[/url]
The head of the BLM is an former Harry Reid top aid, and his son, which Reid is under investiagtion for diverting campiangs fund to, is the one who brokered the deal with the Chinese, who wanted the cattle of the land.
The family doesn't dispute they owe money, they just believe they owe the money to the state and that the BLM has no authority over State land. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
110771
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Posted - 2014.04.13 12:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
That family has been raising cattle around there since the 1800s and just don't want to pay their fines for illegal grazing.
But, calling upon sovereign militias and blocking Interstate traffic is no way to solve the issue or to bring the public over to their side.
Federal land is federal land, and will stay federal land until notified otherwise.
It's these armed militias that are abusing the principles of democracy. Imagine if they came out everytime they were "upset" at something determined by laws and elections. That makes them no better than Putin's goons.
This is just an ugly situation being made worse by out of state-ers with guns just trying to see what they can get away with. And it's a very dangerous precedent. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
117
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Posted - 2014.04.13 13:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's not Federal Land, it's State land. The family's grazing rights go back to the 1800's and is filed with the State of Neveda. They have continued to try and pay the State of Nevada for the grazing rights as per the original agreement. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
110771
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Posted - 2014.04.13 13:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
"Bundy's dispute with the government began about 1993 when the bureau changed grazing rules for the 600,000-acre Gold Butte area to protect an endangered desert tortoise, KLAS reported.
Bundy refused to abide by the changes and stopped paying his grazing fees to the federal bureau, which he contends is infringing on state rights. His family has been ranching since the 1800s, before the U.S. Department of Interior was created and endangered species became a federal issue, he said in an interview with KLAS."
It's just a bunch of State Rights Yokels not wanting to acknowledge that the situation has drastically changed in the last 150 years.
They have had the fair opportunity of leaving the area for over 20 years, but instead choose voluntarily to not remove themselves in order to make a seriously useless point. The feds do grant grazing rights for their land, if gone through the proper channels.
Again, it's just a bunch of State Rights nonsense being exploited for free grazing rights.
What if the American Indian descendants of the Manhato Tribe decide that they now own New York City by "ancient heritage". Same thing. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
110771
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Posted - 2014.04.13 13:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:It's not Federal Land, it's State land. The family's grazing rights go back to the 1800's and is filed with the State of Neveda. They have continued to try and pay the State of Nevada for the grazing rights as per the original agreement.
No.
Those State Lands became Federal Lands with the founding of the BLM.
Also, I find tons of references to them stopping the payment to federal government, but absolutely no references to "still pays the State of Nevada". Why would they pay Nevada if Nevada does not own the land ??? "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
jason hill
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
495
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Posted - 2014.04.13 13:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
so ...is this a story about the us government over reaching themselves ?. |
Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
119
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Posted - 2014.04.13 13:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
It's State land, by what authority does the Federal Government have to imply regualtions? if the issue is to protect a turtle, then the Federal Government should have bought the land from the State by which they then would have authority to regulate the land. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
110771
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Posted - 2014.04.13 14:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:It's State land, by what authority does the Federal Government have to imply regualtions? if the issue is to protect a turtle, then the Federal Government should have bought the land from the State by which they then would have authority to regulate the land.
Since when does the Fed Gov have to "buy" land that it already possesses? That happened with Nevada Statehood and admission to the US, the very point these loons are ignoring. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
119
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Posted - 2014.04.13 14:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
jason hill wrote:so ...is this a story about the us government over reaching themselves ?.
It's two stories, overreach of the US Government, and corruption of Harry Ried
While Reid had nothing to do with the 20 year court battle, the recent event is directly tied to Hary Reid, his former aid and his son force ably removing man's property from State land to benefit (financially and politically) from a land deal with a Chinese firm that planned to use that area to build a solar panel site. |
Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
119
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Posted - 2014.04.13 14:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Snagletooth Johnson wrote:It's State land, by what authority does the Federal Government have to imply regualtions? if the issue is to protect a turtle, then the Federal Government should have bought the land from the State by which they then would have authority to regulate the land. Since when does the Fed Gov have to "buy" land that it already possesses? That happened with Nevada Statehood and admission to the US, the very point these loons are ignoring. Sorry, but I'm never going to change my mind on this, and this whole thing sets a dangerous precedent. Calling out militias from other states to "solve" this kind of nonsense is not how things are done, and just hurts their case. These people are poor, bored, hate the feds, and are just looking for trouble. I doubt anyone involved except the Bundy's even truly have a grasp of what it's all about. The Federal Government does not own states, they are sovereign entities guaranteed under the Constitution. The Federal Government owned the land when it was a territory, but once it became a state, the land became sovereign land of the State of Nevada, not property of the US Government. |
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
110771
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Posted - 2014.04.13 14:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Regardles, my beef is mainly with the "militias" that showed up with guns and rarin' to go. That is not how any problem is solved. It turned the whole thing into a circus. And made it harder for the general public to be sympathetic to their side.
These people are just wanting "action" and absolutely no oversight by the Federal Government in anything at all. It's a very very dangerous precedent. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
119
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Posted - 2014.04.13 15:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Regardles, my beef is mainly with the "militias" that showed up with guns and rarin' to go. That is not how any problem is solved. It turned the whole thing into a circus. And made it harder for the general public to be sympathetic to their side.
These people are just wanting "action" and absolutely no oversight by the Federal Government in anything at all. It's a very very dangerous precedent.
That's a matter of opinion, which are allowed to have
I would disagree. The dangerous precedence is the one set by Federal Government (specifically the BLM) and by Harry Reid, his son, and his former aid to underhandedly and unconstitutionaly sieze the private property (in this term, the cattle, not land) of Bundy and State the sovereign land of Nevada for a financial and political gains of the the Reid family for the sale to a foreign entity.
As for the armed militia showing up, along with other protesters?...1st and 2nd amendment working as intended.
While the militia allowed the "news at 11" types to try and turn this into a circus, on the ground it served to bring this action out of abscurity and into the public eye, and hampered and slowed down the government action while giving time forBundy supporters to put out their side of the story and expose Harry Reid's actions in this land grab. This actually served to make the public more sympathetic, not less...otherwise they'd still be there rounding up cattle instead of packing up going home with their tail between their legs. |
RAIN Arthie
The Ascended Fleet Intrepid Crossing
259
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Posted - 2014.04.13 15:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Just because something is called a law, does not make it just. - RAIN Arthie |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
110774
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Posted - 2014.04.13 15:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:
As for the armed militia showing up, along with other protesters?...1st and 2nd amendment working as intended.
So, "Cowboy Diplomacy" is the way to go in this day and age ? Is an armed populace the way to go in this day and age ?
(The Shooting Gallery that our schools have become is a case in point). "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
119
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Posted - 2014.04.13 15:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Krixtal Icefor wrote:lux Snagletooth Johnson wrote:
As for the armed militia showing up, along with other protesters?...1st and 2nd amendment working as intended.
So, "Cowboy Diplomacy" is the way to go in this day and age ? Is an armed populace the way to go in this day and age ?
You should be asking that to Harry Reid and the BLM. Human nature is a constant, and all governments are a creation of man...armed vigilance against tyranny has no end time. "This day and age" is not an argument, it's wishful thinking of a phantom utopia.
Krixtal Icefor wrote:(The Shooting Gallery that our schools have become is a case in point).
You cannot compare the deranged mind of a violent individual to the collective aggression of a government entity against it's citizenry. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
110774
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Posted - 2014.04.13 15:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Krixtal Icefor wrote:(The Shooting Gallery that our schools have become is a case in point).
Snagletooth Johnson wrote:You cannot compare the deranged mind of a violent individual to the collective aggression of a government entity against it's citizenry.
Which I did not do. I was comparing it, however, to the deranged minds with guns in their hands who showed up from across the entire country. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
119
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Posted - 2014.04.13 15:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Krixtal Icefor wrote:(The Shooting Gallery that our schools have become is a case in point). Snagletooth Johnson wrote:You cannot compare the deranged mind of a violent individual to the collective aggression of a government entity against it's citizenry. Which I did not do. I was comparing it, however, to the deranged minds with guns in their hands who showed up from across the entire country. I would agree. The National Park Service bring in armed Rangers putting snipers in positions above Bundy's home while they illegally and unconstitutionally steal his property and the public lands of the State of Nevada very deranged. Luckily there were very sane people armed as well to counter the governments insanity. |
RAIN Arthie
The Ascended Fleet Intrepid Crossing
259
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Posted - 2014.04.13 16:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Krixtal Icefor wrote:(The Shooting Gallery that our schools have become is a case in point). Snagletooth Johnson wrote:You cannot compare the deranged mind of a violent individual to the collective aggression of a government entity against it's citizenry. Which I did not do. I was comparing it, however, to the deranged minds with guns in their hands who showed up from across the entire country.
Guns are not to be feared, however the people holding them are.- RAIN Arthie
I find that there is no easy solution to the issue, yet our government does not make themselves look very freindly. The militia showed up out of patriotic spirit to defend the rights of the people. Take a mans cattle and not expect people to be upset? The cattlemans property and the ranchers on it date back to the 1800 before the BLM existed. Grandfather clause after grandfather clause. Just because people claim to be something, judge, cop, lawyer, does not mean they have the best intensions or a moral disposition.- RAIN Arthie So really is it about the guns, the laws, the corruption, or freedom?
Note one word: Indian |
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters Disturbed Acquaintance
7387
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Posted - 2014.04.13 17:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
the US government clearly likes turtles. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
110774
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Posted - 2014.04.13 18:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
The dude has had over 20 years to move his cattle elsewhere.
Enough was enough.
The Chinese connection through that other guy, and the solar power farm is a side issue, tbh.
If states and their "militias" start trying to reclaim past ownership......that's going to be a huge can of worms as people whose ancestors actually owned land in the South start trying to claim their soveriegn rights to land and properties they lost over 150 years ago. Sounds ridiculous but that is exactly where this type of thinking is going to lead.
Sorry, but there is no way to "un-burn" Atlanta. "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
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Webvan
State Protectorate Caldari State
860
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Posted - 2014.04.13 19:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:The Chinese connection through that other guy, and the solar power farm is a side issue, tbh. http://www.westernjournalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/free-republic2.jpg Follow the money. Reid and his Obuddies are corrupt to the core.
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Federal land is federal land, and will stay federal land until notified otherwise.
It's these armed militias that are abusing the principles of democracy. Wait, when did we "vote" for a land grab by the feds under the guise of environmental protections to build a Chinese backed solar plant? I must have missed that Ballot Check Box. Those are odd ideas of "democracy" there in your postings.
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
110776
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Posted - 2014.04.13 19:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Webvan wrote: Wait, when did we "vote" for a land grab by the feds under the guise of environmental protections to build a Chinese backed solar plant? I must have missed that Ballot Check Box. Those are odd ideas of "democracy" there in your postings.
The original "land grab" happened in the 1800s. It became Federal Land. They can parse it out to whomever warrants it legitimately.
ed: I think the fact that it's the Chinese is why the Yahoo-Redneck Militia came out of their closet for this one. Had this not been the case, this would not have even made the local papers in Nevada. I mean, 20 years of it and only recently does it make the news ??? "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Webvan
State Protectorate Caldari State
860
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Posted - 2014.04.13 20:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:The original "land grab" happened in the 1800s. It became Federal Land. They can parse it out to whomever warrants it legitimately. ed: I think the fact that it's the Chinese is why the Yahoo-Redneck Militia came out of their closet for this one. Had this not been the case, this would not have even made the local papers in Nevada. I mean, 20 years of it and only recently does it make the news ??? Has nothing to do with land rights as shown from my post, it's about "trespassing cattle" onto land they want to use for a Chinese backed solar plant, btw which is a bane to both man and beast. Yes-yes we'll call them yahoo-redneck militia, I guess vs. the red-imperialist-libs. Lets just sink into the realm of derogatory name calling and forget that these are Americans, further divided by these out of control politicians acting under the guise of "democracy" for their own monetary gains. But to some, the division is a gain, a means to an end, and more so in recent years as I have never seen before of my country. Wellp, cat's out of the bag, they got caught once again and immediately backed down, at least until the next time - same as the last time. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
110776
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Posted - 2014.04.13 20:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Webvan wrote: Lets just sink into the realm of derogatory name calling and forget that these are Americans, further divided by these out of control politicians acting under the guise of "democracy" for their own monetary gains. But to some, the division is a gain, a means to an end, and more so in recent years as I have never seen before of my country. Wellp, cat's out of the bag, they got caught once again and immediately backed down, at least until the next time - same as the last time.
Yeah, it's all a real mess.
This kind of behavior just was not happening even 10 years ago, from either side. It is truly astonishing how the rich now get people into government power, in order to enact policy that makes them even richer. It's all just a snake eating it's own tail at this point.
And this is not even mentioning how the Internet has unfortunately dumbed down the populace severely. Even Entertainment Weekly has announced they are only taking freelance non-paid submissions for movie reviews and stuff. Intelligent, legitimate opinions are becoming impossible to find. Almost all "dialogue" is reactive.
When everyone's opinions and "knowledge" are equalized to that degree (no bonus points for the professional, and everyone has a voice), it's the death of a culture. But then Democracy is supposed to be about everyone having a voice. But that is turning out to have some unforseen consequences, indeed. Perhaps Democracy is a flawed, unworkable concept from inception ? "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Karl Staufenberg
AAR Defense Contracting
1
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Posted - 2014.04.14 06:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
The US does not function as a true democracy. It's a constitutional republic. There's a pretty significant difference. As of so far, there aren't any viable alternatives either. Feudalism, dictatorships, pretty much any form of government that has been tried has someone that's pissed at the status quo. |
Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
2686
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Posted - 2014.04.14 23:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
LMAO!!!
To both side of this problem.
This is not a liberal or a conservative issue but many will never realize this. 'They' keep us divided with their tripe while all of 'them' continue to run to the banks.
I am not going to get much deeper, but if you feel this is the gravest of the offenses the US government puts its people through then eyes need to be opened a tab bit more.
All I will say is prisons.
EDIT: Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
When everyone's opinions and "knowledge" are equalized to that degree (no bonus points for the professional, and everyone has a voice), it's the death of a culture.
The funniest thing I read is when someone on a forum says you are an internet....(psychologist, lawyer...) and say they are not going to entertain your text because, anyone could sit on the other side of the screen and say what you are saying and since I can not verify your credentials, you are a fake.
I am thinking that these people never, ever have a successful debate or conversation in real life. It must go something like, show me your degree before we go any further with this convo lmao!!! |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
110788
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Posted - 2014.04.15 16:43:00 -
[27] - Quote
Even notoriously conservative columnists think Bundy over-reached:
"The rancher says he does not recognize the authority of federal courts. "I abide by all of Nevada state laws," Breitbart Texas reports that the scion told talk radio. "But, I don't recognize the United States government as even existing.""
"He was willing to start a "range war" and risk the lives of his supporters in order to retrieve some cows. He doesn't feel he has to recognize a government elected by his fellow citizens. "
"Bundy could have fought the government at the ballot box by trying to elect members of Congress who want to de-fang the BLM....That's the American way. Threatening to shoot law enforcement officers who simply are carrying out court orders is not."
The tortoise and the hair-trigger "He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."-á - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882 |
Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
122
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Posted - 2014.04.15 20:08:00 -
[28] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:Even notoriously conservative columnists think Bundy over-reached: "The rancher says he does not recognize the authority of federal courts. "I abide by all of Nevada state laws," Breitbart Texas reports that the scion told talk radio. "But, I don't recognize the United States government as even existing."" " He was willing to start a "range war" and risk the lives of his supporters in order to retrieve some cows. He doesn't feel he has to recognize a government elected by his fellow citizens. " "Bundy could have fought the government at the ballot box by trying to elect members of Congress who want to de-fang the BLM....That's the American way. Threatening to shoot law enforcement officers who simply are carrying out court orders is not." The tortoise and the hair-trigger From the same atricle: "The federal government, which owns more than 80 percent of Nevada land, including the land on which the Bundy family had settled, threatened to put him out to pasture. "
Debra J. Saunders, the author of the article, is assuming the Federal Government owns the land, which it does not. Anything after that and her argument falls apart under false assumptions.
It's clear she knows little of the events, and is just quoting (misquoting) from other articles written by other people.
She's a "conservative" columnists for the San Francisco Times. In Far Left San Fran, being a moderate liberal will get you labeled a Far Right Nutwing. |
Adunh Slavy
1359
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Posted - 2014.04.15 22:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: They just absolutely cannot stand the fact that there is a person of color sitting in the White House determining policy.
Al Sharpton, is that you? I didn't know you played Eve. Race baiting hustler gig on MSNBC getting old? Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
Adunh Slavy
1359
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Posted - 2014.04.15 22:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote: Which I did not do. I was comparing it, however, to the deranged minds with guns in their hands who showed up from across the entire country.
The first people to show up on the scene, with guns, were from the government. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
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