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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 42 post(s) |
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
141
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 18:31:00 -
[841] - Quote
Ahernar wrote:Make those "80km" 100
If you want 100km then fit the second DLA.
No other ship can come even close to that kind of dps at 80km, much less 100km. If you want more range for your drones, you'll have to give up some missile DPS.
There is really nothing more to say. You can't have everything you want with no downsides in a single ship.
I would LOVE for my paladin to hit 1400 dps at 100km Vacuums suck. -á- -áDrone Overhaul Proposal |
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
2
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 19:07:00 -
[842] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:Ahernar wrote:Make those "80km" 100 If you want 100km then fit the second DLA. No other ship can come even close to that kind of dps at 80km, much less 100km. If you want more range for your drones, you'll have to give up some missile DPS. There is really nothing more to say. You can't have everything you want with no downsides in a single ship. I would LOVE for my paladin to hit 1400 dps at 100km
Don't forget that all that dps is raw dps. The drones don't hit as good as a domi and the missiles don't hit as good as a navy raven or even typhoon. This kind of dps sounds like a brawling type of ship like the navy domi or fleet typhoon. Lots of dps but bad at applying it. |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
964
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 19:28:00 -
[843] - Quote
Stein Backstabber wrote:So, a solid 1400+ (easily, I'm lowballing) DPS out passed 80km, sufficient mids to get much of the damage down and still a tank like a brick wall.
What will it take to make you happy? What more can you give this thing?
ikr Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5603
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 20:42:00 -
[844] - Quote
Ashley Animus wrote:Last Wolf wrote:Ahernar wrote:Make those "80km" 100 If you want 100km then fit the second DLA. No other ship can come even close to that kind of dps at 80km, much less 100km. If you want more range for your drones, you'll have to give up some missile DPS. There is really nothing more to say. You can't have everything you want with no downsides in a single ship. I would LOVE for my paladin to hit 1400 dps at 100km Don't forget that all that dps is raw dps. The drones don't hit as good as a domi and the missiles don't hit as good as a navy raven or even typhoon. This kind of dps sounds like a brawling type of ship like the navy domi or fleet typhoon. Lots of dps but bad at applying it. How unfortunate that there aren't ships in game that could accompany you that are specifically designed to help you (and everyone else with you) to apply full DPS... To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
3
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 20:45:00 -
[845] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Ashley Animus wrote:Last Wolf wrote:Ahernar wrote:Make those "80km" 100 If you want 100km then fit the second DLA. No other ship can come even close to that kind of dps at 80km, much less 100km. If you want more range for your drones, you'll have to give up some missile DPS. There is really nothing more to say. You can't have everything you want with no downsides in a single ship. I would LOVE for my paladin to hit 1400 dps at 100km Don't forget that all that dps is raw dps. The drones don't hit as good as a domi and the missiles don't hit as good as a navy raven or even typhoon. This kind of dps sounds like a brawling type of ship like the navy domi or fleet typhoon. Lots of dps but bad at applying it. How unfortunate that there aren't ships in game that could accompany you that are specifically designed to help you (and everyone else with you) to apply full DPS...
So if they would like to delete all projection bonuses from all ships since they are useless that would be great. |
Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
207
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 21:02:00 -
[846] - Quote
To all the pilots who want their light drones to be boosted by snakes boni keep in mind that if I fit small guns on my Abbadon they are not covered by the +5% damage from the ship's bonus. You will need to deploy different tactics to handle different situations just like all the rest of us. Same goes for the extra control range as well. It honestly just boils down to you guys wanting your cake and eating too. Oderint Dum Metuant |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
549
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 21:38:00 -
[847] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:To all the pilots who want their light drones to be boosted by snakes boni keep in mind that if I fit small guns on my Abbadon they are not covered by the +5% damage from the ship's bonus. You will need to deploy different tactics to handle different situations just like all the rest of us. Same goes for the extra control range as well. It honestly just boils down to you guys wanting your cake and eating too.
You have a point... But thats part of the benefit of using drones that gets paid for by the unequaled price of a mod slot and destructible weapons.
You may not be able to fit fully bonused small lasers, but should you decide to fit them you may use them knowing no one will shoot them out of space. |
Exglint
Kings and Queens of Deadspace
5
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 21:42:00 -
[848] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:To all the pilots who want their light drones to be boosted by snakes boni keep in mind that if I fit small guns on my Abbadon they are not covered by the +5% damage from the ship's bonus. You will need to deploy different tactics to handle different situations just like all the rest of us. Same goes for the extra control range as well. It honestly just boils down to you guys wanting your cake and eating too.
I guess the devs should get a headstart on that and just remove it from all the ships in the game as well since there is no reason the Gallente line should be any different. Just completely screw drones use up to the point that no one would want to use them at all. We need to see more hybrid turrets on the potbelly pig Domi anyways because who needs drones when you have 6 high slots and 6 turret locations. |
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
Elysian. Heiian Conglomerate
16
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 22:04:00 -
[849] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote: Sorry but where are you getting the 700+ missile Dps from? It is supposed to be a drone boat, if your going to fit it for missile damage - why fly a Snake, there are far better options for missiles.
From messing around in EHQ, with 3 BCUs on each, the New snake has 832 DPS with Fury cruise, 6 DPS less than the raven with fury missiles Snake number seem right. Raven should get more than 838dps with the same setup. My Golem can hit 1k with 5% impants and faction BCU's Raven has the same base damage as a Golem.
Raven with all Lvl 5 skills and 3 t2 BCUs and no implants is 838. This is with the current version of EveHQ. 25% bonus on 6 launchers makes it 7.5 Effective launchers. Same as the New snake |
Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
208
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 22:09:00 -
[850] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Aralieus wrote:To all the pilots who want their light drones to be boosted by snakes boni keep in mind that if I fit small guns on my Abbadon they are not covered by the +5% damage from the ship's bonus. You will need to deploy different tactics to handle different situations just like all the rest of us. Same goes for the extra control range as well. It honestly just boils down to you guys wanting your cake and eating too. You have a point... But thats part of the benefit of using drones that gets paid for by the unequaled price of a mod slot and destructible weapons. You may not be able to fit fully bonused small lasers, but should you decide to fit them you may use them knowing no one will shoot them out of space.
Yes they can be destroyed however they do have major upsides. If your ship gets jammed they keep on firing, they require no ammo and not one GJ of cap to use, bonus from the new snake will make shooting at them very impracticable, if your ship gets SD into nothing your drones will continue to fire. Eve is all about decisions that carry weight so if you want drones then you have to take all the good and the bad that comes along with that decision. Not to mention the Warriors on a Snake with 3 DDA's will pump out 200 DPS and go 6300 meters a second...that's sufficient to handle a inty. It's not like you won't have some defense against them, more so than most BS's for that matter. Oderint Dum Metuant |
|
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
715
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 22:20:00 -
[851] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Aralieus wrote:To all the pilots who want their light drones to be boosted by snakes boni keep in mind that if I fit small guns on my Abbadon they are not covered by the +5% damage from the ship's bonus. You will need to deploy different tactics to handle different situations just like all the rest of us. Same goes for the extra control range as well. It honestly just boils down to you guys wanting your cake and eating too. You have a point... But thats part of the benefit of using drones that gets paid for by the unequaled price of a mod slot and destructible weapons. You may not be able to fit fully bonused small lasers, but should you decide to fit them you may use them knowing no one will shoot them out of space. Yes they can be destroyed however they do have major upsides. If your ship gets jammed they keep on firing, they require no ammo and not one GJ of cap to use, bonus from the new snake will make shooting at them very impracticable, if your ship gets SD into nothing your drones will continue to fire. Eve is all about decisions that carry weight so if you want drones then you have to take all the good and the bad that comes along with that decision. Not to mention the Warriors on a Snake with 3 DDA's will pump out 200 DPS and go 6300 meters a second...that's sufficient to handle a inty. It's not like you won't have some defense against them, more so than most BS's for that matter.
Actually bonuses on the snake will NOT help lights survive, that is the discussion. A Bonus has been removed with NOTHING to replace the damage lost against frigates. Range has been lost from missiles Range has been lost from drones Ability to field heavy ewar/ logi drones has gone. 2 drones apply damage less well than 5. Note I said apply.
So not so much having our cake and eat it, more heres some bread, sorry about the cake. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
715
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 22:44:00 -
[852] - Quote
The actual issues, can be solved very simply without all the chest beating and epeening, that people seem to need to vent when someone points out the negatives of an issue.
Not sure why that is but hey ho.
To resolve the drone issue Gila to receive 200% bonus to light combat drones to both damage and hit points. ( 8 effective light drones, was 7.5) To resolve the drone issue Rattlesnake to receive 50% bonus to light combat drones to both damage and hit points 7.5 effective drones-unchanged.
Rattlesnake either 25km boost to drone control range OR 25% additional damage bonus but launchers remain unchanged at 4. ( an additional High slot would have the potential to cause balance disruption)
Result for rattlesnake as follows;- Drone control range unchanged, drones are still a practical primary weapon. Light drone capability unchanged, light drones remain useful anti frigate weapon. Missile damage unchanged from CCP Rises original bonus levels. NO ADDITIONAL DAMAGE ABILITY OR PROJECTION Occurs.
Missile range decreases from previous extreme levels, a reasonable exchange. New drone mechanic gets the opportunity to show it's value on a balanced weapons platform, drones still are able to project and damage at previous levels to enable a fair comparison to be made. Rattlesnake gets the missile bonus it has desperately needed for years to enable it to be an equal member of the pirate ship fleet.
The likelihood is that all ships will sooner or later use fewer drones and these ships are a testbed, nerfing the core drone usage, as some players seem to demand (well cripple any ship or weapon they do not use) will harm all players if not now then later.
This keeps the rattlesnake balanced, gives the bonus numbers that CCP Rise stated and resolves issues that have unintended consequences. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1119
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 22:49:00 -
[853] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Aralieus wrote:To all the pilots who want their light drones to be boosted by snakes boni keep in mind that if I fit small guns on my Abbadon they are not covered by the +5% damage from the ship's bonus. You will need to deploy different tactics to handle different situations just like all the rest of us. Same goes for the extra control range as well. It honestly just boils down to you guys wanting your cake and eating too. You have a point... But thats part of the benefit of using drones that gets paid for by the unequaled price of a mod slot and destructible weapons. You may not be able to fit fully bonused small lasers, but should you decide to fit them you may use them knowing no one will shoot them out of space. Yes they can be destroyed however they do have major upsides. If your ship gets jammed they keep on firing, they require no ammo and not one GJ of cap to use, bonus from the new snake will make shooting at them very impracticable, if your ship gets SD into nothing your drones will continue to fire. Eve is all about decisions that carry weight so if you want drones then you have to take all the good and the bad that comes along with that decision. Not to mention the Warriors on a Snake with 3 DDA's will pump out 200 DPS and go 6300 meters a second...that's sufficient to handle a inty. It's not like you won't have some defense against them, more so than most BS's for that matter. Immunity to ewar was actually reduced. Either by having lights and mediums unbonused and thus doing less damage and being more fragile, or by having DPS concentrated into fewer targets allowing a single method of disruption to have greater effect. Not to mention the inability to direct drones when jammed/damped means it's not a true get out of ewar free card.
I'm not seeing how you are getting 200 DPS from warrior 2's with 3 DDA's (assuming post changes). I get ~150 DPS when being too lazy to account for stacking penalties, so the reality should be at least notably less. And honestly, since the drones don't MWD and fire that DPS is effectively far less. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
715
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:11:00 -
[854] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aralieus wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Aralieus wrote:To all the pilots who want their light drones to be boosted by snakes boni keep in mind that if I fit small guns on my Abbadon they are not covered by the +5% damage from the ship's bonus. You will need to deploy different tactics to handle different situations just like all the rest of us. Same goes for the extra control range as well. It honestly just boils down to you guys wanting your cake and eating too. You have a point... But thats part of the benefit of using drones that gets paid for by the unequaled price of a mod slot and destructible weapons. You may not be able to fit fully bonused small lasers, but should you decide to fit them you may use them knowing no one will shoot them out of space. Yes they can be destroyed however they do have major upsides. If your ship gets jammed they keep on firing, they require no ammo and not one GJ of cap to use, bonus from the new snake will make shooting at them very impracticable, if your ship gets SD into nothing your drones will continue to fire. Eve is all about decisions that carry weight so if you want drones then you have to take all the good and the bad that comes along with that decision. Not to mention the Warriors on a Snake with 3 DDA's will pump out 200 DPS and go 6300 meters a second...that's sufficient to handle a inty. It's not like you won't have some defense against them, more so than most BS's for that matter. Immunity to ewar was actually reduced. Either by having lights and mediums unbonused and thus doing less damage and being more fragile, or by having DPS concentrated into fewer targets allowing a single method of disruption to have greater effect. Not to mention the inability to direct drones when jammed/damped means it's not a true get out of ewar free card. I'm not seeing how you are getting 200 DPS from warrior 2's with 3 DDA's (assuming post changes). I get ~150 DPS when being too lazy to account for stacking penalties, so the reality should be at least notably less. And honestly, since the drones don't MWD and fire that DPS is effectively far less. Unfortunately it is commonly the case that players who are focused on the fitting tools greatly overestimate the damage and application of drone damage, every post that discusses drones or drone ships raises the same.
No matter how much a drone user tries to explain, they are unfortunately unable to look beyond the numbers they see, so there is very little point in trying to explain.
The issues are simply resolvable, the 2 superdrone 5 drone testing on these ships needs a clear playing field so the true effects can be seen, my post above, tries to ensure that can happen.
Thankfully CCP are aware of the drone limitations of applying damage, so it is they who we should be assisting with discussing issues found and potential resolutions, arguing with users who do are not familiar with the weapon system or ship is pointless and frustrating, and just makes it harder for CCP to get reasonable feedback.
If players do not like drones, rather than trying to cripple a ship for users that do use them should form a separate "i hate drones" thread and they can argue amongst themselves there. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
208
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:29:00 -
[855] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aralieus wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Aralieus wrote:To all the pilots who want their light drones to be boosted by snakes boni keep in mind that if I fit small guns on my Abbadon they are not covered by the +5% damage from the ship's bonus. You will need to deploy different tactics to handle different situations just like all the rest of us. Same goes for the extra control range as well. It honestly just boils down to you guys wanting your cake and eating too. You have a point... But thats part of the benefit of using drones that gets paid for by the unequaled price of a mod slot and destructible weapons. You may not be able to fit fully bonused small lasers, but should you decide to fit them you may use them knowing no one will shoot them out of space. Yes they can be destroyed however they do have major upsides. If your ship gets jammed they keep on firing, they require no ammo and not one GJ of cap to use, bonus from the new snake will make shooting at them very impracticable, if your ship gets SD into nothing your drones will continue to fire. Eve is all about decisions that carry weight so if you want drones then you have to take all the good and the bad that comes along with that decision. Not to mention the Warriors on a Snake with 3 DDA's will pump out 200 DPS and go 6300 meters a second...that's sufficient to handle a inty. It's not like you won't have some defense against them, more so than most BS's for that matter. Immunity to ewar was actually reduced. Either by having lights and mediums unbonused and thus doing less damage and being more fragile, or by having DPS concentrated into fewer targets allowing a single method of disruption to have greater effect. Not to mention the inability to direct drones when jammed/damped means it's not a true get out of ewar free card. I'm not seeing how you are getting 200 DPS from warrior 2's with 3 DDA's (assuming post changes). I get ~150 DPS when being too lazy to account for stacking penalties, so the reality should be at least notably less. And honestly, since the drones don't MWD and fire that DPS is effectively far less.
I'm not seeing how you're not getting 200 DPS...actually you're right, it's not 200 dps. It's 201.
Source
At any rate my point is there are some major upsides to using drones, especially with ships such as the snake. There are also downsides as with any weapon system in Eve and it seems like alot of pilots in this thread are asking for no downsides at all to be implemented. For the decision to use drones as your main weapon platform to come with no repercussions whatsoever and that just seems very un-Eve like. Oderint Dum Metuant |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
715
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:34:00 -
[856] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aralieus wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Aralieus wrote:To all the pilots who want their light drones to be boosted by snakes boni keep in mind that if I fit small guns on my Abbadon they are not covered by the +5% damage from the ship's bonus. You will need to deploy different tactics to handle different situations just like all the rest of us. Same goes for the extra control range as well. It honestly just boils down to you guys wanting your cake and eating too. You have a point... But thats part of the benefit of using drones that gets paid for by the unequaled price of a mod slot and destructible weapons. You may not be able to fit fully bonused small lasers, but should you decide to fit them you may use them knowing no one will shoot them out of space. Yes they can be destroyed however they do have major upsides. If your ship gets jammed they keep on firing, they require no ammo and not one GJ of cap to use, bonus from the new snake will make shooting at them very impracticable, if your ship gets SD into nothing your drones will continue to fire. Eve is all about decisions that carry weight so if you want drones then you have to take all the good and the bad that comes along with that decision. Not to mention the Warriors on a Snake with 3 DDA's will pump out 200 DPS and go 6300 meters a second...that's sufficient to handle a inty. It's not like you won't have some defense against them, more so than most BS's for that matter. Immunity to ewar was actually reduced. Either by having lights and mediums unbonused and thus doing less damage and being more fragile, or by having DPS concentrated into fewer targets allowing a single method of disruption to have greater effect. Not to mention the inability to direct drones when jammed/damped means it's not a true get out of ewar free card. I'm not seeing how you are getting 200 DPS from warrior 2's with 3 DDA's (assuming post changes). I get ~150 DPS when being too lazy to account for stacking penalties, so the reality should be at least notably less. And honestly, since the drones don't MWD and fire that DPS is effectively far less. I'm not seeing how you're not getting 200 DPS...actually you're right, it's not 200 dps. It's 201. SourceAt any rate my point is there are some major upsides to using drones, especially with ships such as the snake. There are also downsides as with any weapon system in Eve and it seems like alot of pilots in this thread are asking for no downsides at all to be implemented. For the decision to use drones as your main weapon platform to come with no repercussions whatsoever and that just seems very un-Eve like.
Do we care? We are trying to discuss the rebalance of the rattlesnake here, we are not discussing your dislike of drones. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
162
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:41:00 -
[857] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote: Sorry but where are you getting the 700+ missile Dps from? It is supposed to be a drone boat, if your going to fit it for missile damage - why fly a Snake, there are far better options for missiles.
From messing around in EHQ, with 3 BCUs on each, the New snake has 832 DPS with Fury cruise, 6 DPS less than the raven with fury missiles Snake number seem right. Raven should get more than 838dps with the same setup. My Golem can hit 1k with 5% impants and faction BCU's Raven has the same base damage as a Golem. Well in that case My Apologies I stand corrected - and CCP Rise deserves a medal because with those numbers the Rattlesnake can indeed field over 1500Dps.
A drone boat, that without implants has over 800 Dps in missiles @ 148k, also has over 700 Dps from Sentries.
One of 2 things happened here - somebody in the balancing department screwed up Royally - or - The new "Super Drones" aren't going to be so super so the ship was given good missile Dps to make up for it.
The RattleSnake will no longer be a Guristas Drone Battleship, it has become a Missile Battleship - with drones. (Move a high to a low on the Gila, it would work much the same way - Fit for missiles would eliminate drones altogether)
Give Domi 10% to Hybrids (and a small tracking bonus) - Super 2 Sentries - no more insta Tidi.
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Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
6078
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:51:00 -
[858] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
So can we please stay on topic?
He is on topic. What you are asking for is overpowered and i'd bet isk CCP won't do any of what you are asking for because of that.
I'm a lover of the Guristas ships, but all ships need downsides to be balanced. The balance here is "5 bonused launcers on a mid ranged killer or 4 bonused launchers and an extra DLA on a sniper". And the launchers (with appropriate ammo) + drones are all anyone needs to kill small ships. |
Sgt Ocker
Last Bastion of Freedom
162
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:55:00 -
[859] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aralieus wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Aralieus wrote:To all the pilots who want their light drones to be boosted by snakes boni keep in mind that if I fit small guns on my Abbadon they are not covered by the +5% damage from the ship's bonus. You will need to deploy different tactics to handle different situations just like all the rest of us. Same goes for the extra control range as well. It honestly just boils down to you guys wanting your cake and eating too. You have a point... But thats part of the benefit of using drones that gets paid for by the unequaled price of a mod slot and destructible weapons. You may not be able to fit fully bonused small lasers, but should you decide to fit them you may use them knowing no one will shoot them out of space. Yes they can be destroyed however they do have major upsides. If your ship gets jammed they keep on firing, they require no ammo and not one GJ of cap to use, bonus from the new snake will make shooting at them very impracticable, if your ship gets SD into nothing your drones will continue to fire. Eve is all about decisions that carry weight so if you want drones then you have to take all the good and the bad that comes along with that decision. Not to mention the Warriors on a Snake with 3 DDA's will pump out 200 DPS and go 6300 meters a second...that's sufficient to handle a inty. It's not like you won't have some defense against them, more so than most BS's for that matter. Immunity to ewar was actually reduced. Either by having lights and mediums unbonused and thus doing less damage and being more fragile, or by having DPS concentrated into fewer targets allowing a single method of disruption to have greater effect. Not to mention the inability to direct drones when jammed/damped means it's not a true get out of ewar free card. I'm not seeing how you are getting 200 DPS from warrior 2's with 3 DDA's (assuming post changes). I get ~150 DPS when being too lazy to account for stacking penalties, so the reality should be at least notably less. And honestly, since the drones don't MWD and fire that DPS is effectively far less. I'm not seeing how you're not getting 200 DPS...actually you're right, it's not 200 dps. It's 201. SourceAt any rate my point is there are some major upsides to using drones, especially with ships such as the snake. There are also downsides as with any weapon system in Eve and it seems like alot of pilots in this thread are asking for no downsides at all to be implemented. For the decision to use drones as your main weapon platform to come with no repercussions whatsoever and that just seems very un-Eve like. You do realize the "Source" you used currently has a bonus to "all" drones - Post patch, Rattlesnake will have no bonus to light or medium drones - Dps from 5 Warriors + 3 DDU is closer to 145 Dps with all lvl 5 skills (with roughly added stacking penalties).
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Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
209
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:57:00 -
[860] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Do we care? We are trying to discuss the rebalance of the rattlesnake here, we are not discussing your dislike of drones.
The issues are relating to the way light drones have lost capability to deal with frigates on the Gila and rattlesnake, and with the effect of the method chosen to buff missile damage.
This relates to the overall capabilities of the ships and how they are rolled out.
This is not about your opinion of drones, and what we should expect from them. We are trying to give CCP feedback on the changes and how we see the effect of them on the ships we fly,
There are no doubt threads on drone balance you can participate in, that is the place for them.
So can we please stay on topic?
I would like to think some care about logic, reason and a fair re-balance, do you?
Because it seems apparent that anybody who says differently from what your opinion is is a troll, going off-topic(lol) or not participating in the discussion in a manner of your liking and written off and blocked(lol)
I am also not here to discuss your assumption that I dislike drones (6 Million SP in Drones says I do btw) but to address the issue that it would not be wise to allow one ship to have so much power and handle so many different situations so efficiently with just a standard fit. This may rub you the wrong way however that's why we are here, to put our feedback on the table and let CCP sort it out.
Oderint Dum Metuant |
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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
715
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:58:00 -
[861] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Last Wolf wrote:Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote: Sorry but where are you getting the 700+ missile Dps from? It is supposed to be a drone boat, if your going to fit it for missile damage - why fly a Snake, there are far better options for missiles.
From messing around in EHQ, with 3 BCUs on each, the New snake has 832 DPS with Fury cruise, 6 DPS less than the raven with fury missiles Snake number seem right. Raven should get more than 838dps with the same setup. My Golem can hit 1k with 5% impants and faction BCU's Raven has the same base damage as a Golem. Well in that case My Apologies I stand corrected - and CCP Rise deserves a medal because with those numbers the Rattlesnake can indeed field over 1500Dps. A drone boat, that without implants has over 800 Dps in missiles @ 148k, also has over 700 Dps from Sentries. One of 2 things happened here - somebody in the balancing department screwed up Royally - or - The new "Super Drones" aren't going to be so super so the ship was given good missile Dps to make up for it. The RattleSnake will no longer be a Guristas Drone Battleship, it has become a Missile Battleship - with drones. (Move a high to a low on the Gila, it would work much the same way - Fit for missiles would send Drones to secondary weapon status)) Give Domi 10% to Hybrids (and a small tracking bonus) - Super 2 Sentries - no more insta Tidi.
Interesting numbers, it is expected for a pirate ship to have better damage than a T1 battleship, the raven can also field five medium drones, don't forget to add that damage, and it has bonuses to projection range too. Plus an additional hi slot can be useful
Also bear in mind that sentries have somewhat imperfect damage application as well, so adding up bare numbers will always make a sentry ship seem very very powerful, the domi benefits here because with it's bonuses it can actually apply that damage too.
Overall the ship (once the small but important issues are solved) will be more powerful than the current model, but probably less so than the raw damage figures from the fitting tool will imply.
If a pirate ship was not more powerful than a T1 battleship something would be somewhat wrong, but when the applied damage is taken into account, it will be more powerful, but not unexpectedly so. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1119
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:02:00 -
[862] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Aralieus wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Aralieus wrote:To all the pilots who want their light drones to be boosted by snakes boni keep in mind that if I fit small guns on my Abbadon they are not covered by the +5% damage from the ship's bonus. You will need to deploy different tactics to handle different situations just like all the rest of us. Same goes for the extra control range as well. It honestly just boils down to you guys wanting your cake and eating too. You have a point... But thats part of the benefit of using drones that gets paid for by the unequaled price of a mod slot and destructible weapons. You may not be able to fit fully bonused small lasers, but should you decide to fit them you may use them knowing no one will shoot them out of space. Yes they can be destroyed however they do have major upsides. If your ship gets jammed they keep on firing, they require no ammo and not one GJ of cap to use, bonus from the new snake will make shooting at them very impracticable, if your ship gets SD into nothing your drones will continue to fire. Eve is all about decisions that carry weight so if you want drones then you have to take all the good and the bad that comes along with that decision. Not to mention the Warriors on a Snake with 3 DDA's will pump out 200 DPS and go 6300 meters a second...that's sufficient to handle a inty. It's not like you won't have some defense against them, more so than most BS's for that matter. Immunity to ewar was actually reduced. Either by having lights and mediums unbonused and thus doing less damage and being more fragile, or by having DPS concentrated into fewer targets allowing a single method of disruption to have greater effect. Not to mention the inability to direct drones when jammed/damped means it's not a true get out of ewar free card. I'm not seeing how you are getting 200 DPS from warrior 2's with 3 DDA's (assuming post changes). I get ~150 DPS when being too lazy to account for stacking penalties, so the reality should be at least notably less. And honestly, since the drones don't MWD and fire that DPS is effectively far less. I'm not seeing how you're not getting 200 DPS...actually you're right, it's not 200 dps. It's 201. SourceAt any rate my point is there are some major upsides to using drones, especially with ships such as the snake. There are also downsides as with any weapon system in Eve and it seems like alot of pilots in this thread are asking for no downsides at all to be implemented. For the decision to use drones as your main weapon platform to come with no repercussions whatsoever and that just seems very un-Eve like. Why are you quoting numbers that will be obsolete come the deployment of the changes being discussed. The RS is losing it's bonuses to light and medium drones. That number is wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Also, you seem to be missing the fact that the snake makes of for some vulnerabilities of drones by introducing others. I'm fine with the loss of a high slot. Some understandably aren't. But taking the RS and drone boats as a whole it isn't the prefect damage application that you seem to be insinuating, nor is the trade of drone number for HP a pure gain. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
715
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:12:00 -
[863] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Do we care? We are trying to discuss the rebalance of the rattlesnake here, we are not discussing your dislike of drones.
The issues are relating to the way light drones have lost capability to deal with frigates on the Gila and rattlesnake, and with the effect of the method chosen to buff missile damage.
This relates to the overall capabilities of the ships and how they are rolled out.
This is not about your opinion of drones, and what we should expect from them. We are trying to give CCP feedback on the changes and how we see the effect of them on the ships we fly,
There are no doubt threads on drone balance you can participate in, that is the place for them.
So can we please stay on topic? I would like to think some care about logic, reason and a fair re-balance, do you? Because it seems apparent that anybody who says differently from what your opinion is is a troll, going off-topic(lol) or not participating in the discussion in a manner of your liking and written off and blocked(lol) I am also not here to discuss your assumption that I dislike drones (6 Million SP in Drones says I do btw) but to address the issue that it would not be wise to allow one ship to have so much power and handle so many different situations so efficiently with just a standard fit. This may rub you the wrong way however that's why we are here, to put our feedback on the table and let CCP sort it out.
Very well, as a drone user you are no doubt aware that sentries do not apply 100% damage Light drones do not keep a consistant speed applying damage in a continuous stream.
Missiles and drones have a different range profile, sentries are of multiple types and range, therefore 100% of damage is not applied at all the same ranges all the time. Drones are recalled to mitigate damage and break lock so do not apply 100% damage 100% of the time.
So why do you quote figures that assume these facts are not the case to make an argument that simply clouds the actual issues. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Aralieus
The Inf1dels Spaceship Samurai
209
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:20:00 -
[864] - Quote
Yes my assumption on the post-patch numbers was incorrect however the point still stands...you will have means to swat off inty's and frigs with 5 lights boosted by 3 DDA's. Oderint Dum Metuant |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
715
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:24:00 -
[865] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Yes my assumption on the post-patch numbers was incorrect however the point still stands...you will have means to swat off inty's and frigs with 5 lights boosted by 3 DDA's.
That is so reassuring...........
If wrong. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1119
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:32:00 -
[866] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Yes my assumption on the post-patch numbers was incorrect however the point still stands...you will have means to swat off inty's and frigs with 5 lights boosted by 3 DDA's. Which isn't a terribly unique ability nor will it likely play out as well as the term "swatting" would imply, else inty's would already be largely obsolete in any situation where a ship was present that had 25mb drone band.
I can see where the balance was struck here though, in trade for having much higher potential max DPS some specialized high application DPS was lost. Which is cool, I just had a bone to pick with the idea that 5 lights, bonussed or not reliably meant dead ceptors (it doesn't, and rightly so), and the inclusion of a bonus that would no longer exist when calculating effect.
Those aside we pretty much agree. |
Endo Saissore
Bananas Never Did Me Dirty
49
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:44:00 -
[867] - Quote
Can I just applaud you two for the debate you're having? You guys obviously disagree but I admire the way that you're keeping it civilized and are actually listening to each other. Hear hear! |
Tempban Darkfall
Darkfall Corp
20
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:44:00 -
[868] - Quote
Can't you ******* retards do anything right? Rattlesnake is going to be worse than it was before now.
The sheer number of posts complaining about Guristas should tell you that your reluctant addition of sentries wasn't nearly enough to make your bad idea moderately acceptable. We spent a lot of time training these pirate faction battleships and now you are shitting all over us with major changes. **** you. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
715
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 01:04:00 -
[869] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:
So can we please stay on topic?
He is on topic. What you are asking for is overpowered and i'd bet isk CCP won't do any of what you are asking for because of that. I'm a lover of the Guristas ships, but all ships need downsides to be balanced. The balance here is "5 bonused launcers on a mid ranged killer or 4 bonused launchers and an extra DLA on a sniper". And the launchers (with appropriate ammo) + drones are all anyone needs to kill small ships.
Jenn, i am a little suprised that you think that what I am suggesting is overpowered, I am pretty certain you know I am not talking about adding peak damage. The DLA is what people currently fit, not additional, the new requirement is to remove it. Remember the rattlesnake has a drone ship slot layout even though it is now much more a missile ship.
The ship has always languished as a pirate vessel because it was underpowered in comparison. Ccp rise has taken the sniping range bonus away from the missile launchers, good call i think
But to have sentries also reduced in range is pretty serious, forget wardens,there now is not a need for them. 100km was not really a sniper range.
The light drones have lost both their damage and hitpoint bonus, and no longer has a drone bay to replace them on mass. For some areas of combat, that is a real issue. Nasty on the rattlesnake, but losing 3.5 effective drones and the hit point bonus on the Gila is much harder to deal with
The superdrone concept, I like, but one will never be able to evaluate it clearly if you degrade the rest of the weapon system too.
All i am asking for is to NOT degrade the drone system so that the superdrone concept can be seen to work.
The missile damage increase, however it is applied is needed to bring the ship up to the same level as the other pirate battleships, to make it desireable.
Currently little fixes will achieve this, minor changes that really have little effect on balance, but a big effect on the perception and experience of pilots. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
George Wizardry
Asian P0RN
11
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 01:13:00 -
[870] - Quote
What role will the rattlesnake play now? Before the proposed change is was/is an awesome long range sniper.
By removing the size of the drone bay/bandwidth it is reduced to only a couple of sentry or heavy drones + it doesn't have the maneuverability to be a medium or up close brawler.
I do like the idea of the extra launcher though :)
Within the EVE universe I have no interest or desire to kill other players, real life is a different story...... |
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