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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 42 post(s) |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1187
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:28:00 -
[1321] - Quote
ECM does work, however. |
Stein Backstabber
The Forgotten Wanderers
32
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:29:00 -
[1322] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote: Left at the same DPS level, the superdrone bonus does more harm than good. They will be simple to negate with some ewar, drones are far from immune to those effects they are just not normally worth the attention being only a small part of a larger package.
Try TDing or RSDing a drone, let me know how you get on.
Well they can certainly be jammed, I've seen it. No idea on the other effects because they are not "hard blockers"
edit, damn your fast second post |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1187
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:31:00 -
[1323] - Quote
The problem of webbing a heavy drone isn't significant either. You're only likely to use heavies against a nearby tackled or very slow target, and the delay in damage application produced by webbing the incoming drone is generally minimal.
It'd be a lot more serious if you have range-bonused webs or a target at range, but in those cases you should be using sentries. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
558
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:34:00 -
[1324] - Quote
In all honesty, I have never personally tested ewar on drones. It is possible they are immune and I never noticed. I have seen them start to miss when sensor damped in Serpentis mission, but that may just be ancedotal happenstance... Misses do happen.
If that is the case I have few misgivings, and my desire for actual superdrones in the battleship class is just my own personal pipedream with little need for implementation. |
baltec1
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
11249
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:35:00 -
[1325] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:ECM does work, however.
Better off jamming the battleship. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:36:00 -
[1326] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:The problem of webbing a heavy drone isn't significant either. You're only likely to use heavies against a nearby tackled or very slow target, and the delay in damage application produced by webbing the incoming drone is generally minimal.
It'd be a lot more serious if you have range-bonused webs or a target at range, but in those cases you should be using sentries At what range do you switch over from Bouncers to Berserkers? In a Rattlesnake I usually pack LMJD as prop mod, so I move under 150m/s (meaining I won't get to it), and a double-npc-webbed heavy moves... well it doesn't really move... Crawls at 25m/s? Not sure if their MWD is shut down. Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting. |
Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
3352
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:36:00 -
[1327] - Quote
There is one Pirate Faction Battleship missing from this list: the Nestor. Forget the Covert Ops cloak, laser, scanning and RR bonuses - I think we should just turn it into a dedicated drone platform.
Gallente Battleship Bonus: 20% bonus to Sentry Drone hit points and damage Amarr Battleship Bonus: 4% bonus to all armor resistances Role Bonus: 50% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1187
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:39:00 -
[1328] - Quote
Yeah, someone posted something about drones being immune to TDs a week or so ago. Plus someone had posted something about TDing sentries during a tournament, only to find out later that it hadn't done a thing.
So I went out and tested it last week. Yeah, ECM works, TDs and RSDs don't. I didn't bother testing painter but I'd expect them to work.
And yes, you probably would be better off just jamming the Rattlesnake. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
558
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:44:00 -
[1329] - Quote
The problem of webbing a second drone isnt huge, its just magnified compared to a standard drone ship.
A target can with a single web just about negate the dps of a single heavy. When you are being hit by 5 its hardly worth the effort. When its just two, even if all you do is web and keep it at range you have cut incoming dps significantly.
The same is true of the ramifications of ECM on drones... Normally they just are not worth the effort. On the smaller hulls this is made up in the fact that each drone is almost a flights worth of dps individually, but on the Rattlesnake that is not the case... The Superdrone concept is actually a weakness if left at a break even point.
I will have to look again, as I am at work, but I dont recall sentries or heavies having especially strong sensors, and there is no way to improve it unless Command bonuses apply to drones, and I have never noticed that they do. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
1187
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 18:51:00 -
[1330] - Quote
Heavies and sentries have sensor strength 22.5, which is respectable.
And I think the thing about a target webbing a single heavy drone to cut incoming DPS by keeping it at range is not realistic. A webbed Ogre will decelerate to 700 m/s, meaning that a tackled target about 10 km away will not be able to significantly delay its arrival to activation range.
Yes, non-tackled targets at longer ranges, particularly those with long-range webs, would be able to delay the drone to a useful extent. But the Rattler should normally be using sentries in those situations, not heavies. So I don't think it's a huge problem.
I'm mostly talking PVP here, but the principle should still hold for PVE. |
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
558
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:52:00 -
[1331] - Quote
You are certainly better off just jamming the Rattlesnake if you can force it to recall its drones...
However, with the fluffed HP that will be a bit harder. On the other hand I am betting a skilled pilot in an unbonused hull could jam a sentry reliably with a multispectral jammer, while the same is much less certain for the snake itself. Again, I need to look at the base stats of the drones, but even so there is no way to improve that. |
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:53:00 -
[1332] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:A target can with a single web just about negate the dps of a single heavy. Funny random fact: If the drone stays in range because the target doesn't run away, webing the heavy probably improves it's tracking. Someone made extensive testing on the topic of drones and their tracking a long time ago.
Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
558
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Posted - 2014.04.21 18:59:00 -
[1333] - Quote
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:A target can with a single web just about negate the dps of a single heavy. Funny random fact: If the drone stays in range because the target doesn't run away, webing the heavy probably improves it's tracking. Someone made extensive testing on the topic of drones and their tracking a long time ago.
Yes, I assumed the target would continue to move and make an attwmpt to keep the drone at the edge of its range.
Edit: on the topic of things that dont work on drones, anyone ever tried keeping one scrambled? It occurs to me someone benefitting from skirmish links might have a significantly easier time dealing with superdrones. |
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2014.04.21 19:14:00 -
[1334] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:And I think the thing about a target webbing a single heavy drone to cut incoming DPS by keeping it at range is not realistic. A webbed Ogre will decelerate to 700 m/s, meaning that a tackled target about 10 km away will not be able to significantly delay its arrival to activation range.
Yes, non-tackled targets at longer ranges, particularly those with long-range webs, would be able to delay the drone to a useful extent. But the Rattler should normally be using sentries in those situations, not heavies. So I don't think it's a huge problem.
I'm mostly talking PVP here, but the principle should still hold for PVE. Yes, it will arrive sometimes into activation range (4km) with the speed of 500-750 depending on the type of T2 Heavy. Then it shuts down the MWD, and goes with the orbit speed 180-252. If it slips out of the 4km barrier then, it turns off the guns, and starts the MWD cycle. Not sure how bad that game is with them, but defo takes some time. Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting. |
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
148
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Posted - 2014.04.21 19:26:00 -
[1335] - Quote
I wonder if there is a reason why drones can't shoot while MWD is active. I understand needing to turn off MWD so they don't out-fly their tracking when in orbit, but if they are chasing the target with MWD on and not getting into orbit range it would be awesome if they would still shoot. Vacuums suck. -á- -áDrone Overhaul Proposal |
Myrthiis
Lost World Compagny Quebec United Legions
5
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Posted - 2014.04.21 19:30:00 -
[1336] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Sixty pages. Can we talk about something else now?
I, for one, am absolutely horrible at reading agility stats no matter what. Exactly how significant is the agility nerf on the Machariel? Objective statements only, if that's okay. I'm not looking for opinions. Opinions are how we get flame wars.
With rough math thats a 15 % nerf to mach overall agility ,losing 1 s to 2 s warp out time from 0 velocity ,its no longer possible to warp out in 5 s with a nanomach (2 nano fitted) will be around 7 s from o velocity .
Over all serpentis ships will warp out faster than the angel except for the vigilant ,but we keep the drawback low grid or low cpu that we paid for the increased mobility .Taste like bleached water (personnal opinion) |
Ebag Trescientas
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.04.21 19:51:00 -
[1337] - Quote
I haven't seen any hard numbers posted, but playing with Pyfa and adjusting the hull bonuses, you end up with this (assumes all Level 5 skills).
Garde II (standard RS bonus) Shield: 1367 Armor: 1800 Structure: 3420 Shield Regen Rate: 8.202
Garde II (Superdrone) Shield: 3417 Armor: 4500 Structure: 8100 Shield Regen Rate: 20.502
Ogre II (Standard RS bonus) Shield: 504 Armor: 1080 Structure: 2644 Shield Regen Rate: 4.8384
Ogre II (Superdrone) Shield: 1261 Armor: 2700 Structure: 6661 Shield Regen Rate: 12.1056
The heavies still seem underwhelming to me, while their survival rate will go up, the base shield regen doesn't seem to be enough to make much of a difference to me. Sentries should be able to mostly shrug off the random incoming fire (in PvE L4's), and have to be pulled in and swapped a lot less often.
It'd be nice to see heavies get a shield/armor/hull bonus in the drone revamp, they certainly need it.
For light/medium/heavy drones, seems your best strategy is to treat them as disposable. Don't bother recalling, just carry enough to replace as they die. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1176
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Posted - 2014.04.21 19:58:00 -
[1338] - Quote
Thread temp locked for some cleaning. ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
151
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Posted - 2014.04.22 01:29:00 -
[1339] - Quote
Ebag Trescientas wrote:I haven't seen any hard numbers posted, but playing with Pyfa and adjusting the hull bonuses, you end up with this (assumes all Level 5 skills).
Garde II (standard RS bonus) Shield: 1367 Armor: 1800 Structure: 3420 Shield Regen Rate: 8.202
Garde II (Superdrone) Shield: 3417 Armor: 4500 Structure: 8100 Shield Regen Rate: 20.502
Ogre II (Standard RS bonus) Shield: 504 Armor: 1080 Structure: 2644 Shield Regen Rate: 4.8384
Ogre II (Superdrone) Shield: 1261 Armor: 2700 Structure: 6661 Shield Regen Rate: 12.1056
The heavies still seem underwhelming to me, while their survival rate will go up, the base shield regen doesn't seem to be enough to make much of a difference to me. Sentries should be able to mostly shrug off the random incoming fire (in PvE L4's), and have to be pulled in and swapped a lot less often.
It'd be nice to see heavies get a shield/armor/hull bonus in the drone revamp, they certainly need it.
For light/medium/heavy drones, seems your best strategy is to treat them as disposable. Don't bother recalling, just carry enough to replace as they die.
Remember that the heavies will be moving, unlike the sentries so they should be a heartier than the base numbers appear. We will have to test them to see how much functional tank they end up with. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
611
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 01:50:00 -
[1340] - Quote
Seems to me the reason lights and mediums are not getting the 275% bonus is pretty obvious.
With 50m3 bandwidth and a 275% bonus on hammerheads you would be fielding a flight of 5 hammerheads doing the equivalent damage of 18.75 hammerheads.
That would be an awful lot of DPS. |
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Arthur Aihaken
Perkone Caldari State
3352
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 02:06:00 -
[1341] - Quote
CCP Rise, is there any chance that a hard point can be added to the center underside of the Rattlesnake for the 5th launcher? (right under the lower "grill" in front would be perfect) That way the last turret appears below and on top of the Rattlesnake. Thanks. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Ebag Trescientas
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.04.22 02:38:00 -
[1342] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote: Remember that the heavies will be moving, unlike the sentries so they should be a heartier than the base numbers appear. We will have to test them to see how much functional tank they end up with.
That's a fair point, but unless they're going up against a BS with arties or other long ranged weaponry, I don't think it's going to make much (if any) of a difference. They just don't move fast enough and have a small enough sig size. Sentries, on the other hand, have the advantage of range tank.
While I wouldn't want to swap the stats straight across, I would like to see heavies bonused to be at least equivalent to sentries. IMHO they should also have a damage bonus greater than sentries, due to the damage application issues they have. Leave the drone bonus for sentry where it's at, add another 50-100% for heavies, and things would start to get real interesting.
My gut feeling is that the way heavies are setup now, you're going to have to treat them as disposable. Sure you only lose 2 compared to someone else losing 5, but no way are you going to be able to recall them in time to save them in most situations (mediums on the Gila will have the same problem, which is offset a little bit with the MWD changes coming). If they were tankier, you might have the option of being close in brawling like you will with the Gila, and swapping through drones as their shield tank broke. The shield buffer/regen just isn't enough as it stands now to make a significant difference, which is more than a little confusing considering that heavies are going to take FAR more damage than sentries will (being in the thick of things, as opposed to being at 30km-100km stand off range). |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1261
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 02:49:00 -
[1343] - Quote
A damage bonus on the snake for heavies would just be a bandaid. And wouldn't solve the heavy issue for other ships. Heavies themselves should be altered. Imagine about double the optimal/fall off (Meaning double the orbit radius also), changing the drone MWD mechanics for all sizes so that they attempt to match speed with the target to orbit, leaving their MWD on if they have to for speed, and maybe a 10-15% DPS increase so that heavies out DPS sentries properly, but still have travel time involved.
That might be about what is actually needed for heavies. But a special snake only DPS bonus for Heavies isn't the answer. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1261
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 02:51:00 -
[1344] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:CCP Rise, is there any chance that a hard point can be added to the center underside of the Rattlesnake for the 5th launcher? (right under the lower "grill" in front would be perfect) That way the last turret appears below and on top of the Rattlesnake. Thanks. Try a current snake putting the launcher in the 5th slot. The hard points already exist. It's based on which slot you put the turrets/launchers in as to where they appear, so if you leave the first two slots empty and put them in the last slots, you get a different turret layout. Or you can leave the middle two slots empty at present for a different layout again etc. |
Myrthiis
Lost World Compagny Quebec United Legions
5
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Posted - 2014.04.22 04:46:00 -
[1345] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:CCP Rise, is there any chance that a hard point can be added to the center underside of the Rattlesnake for the 5th launcher? (right under the lower "grill" in front would be perfect) That way the last turret appears below and on top of the Rattlesnake. Thanks. Pretty much every ships with ahigh slots odd number or high + a turret odd number have this kind of problem making the disposion of turrets looking undesigned and cluncky ,thats what we 're talking about when we mentioned "turret symmetry" .
Basically this is just some 3 d model works and a smart redispotion of turrets slots on the 3 d model for a great visual satisfaction for something that had bothered some of us for quite a long time now .Hope we could have good news on this front . |
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
37
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Posted - 2014.04.22 05:56:00 -
[1346] - Quote
On the Rattlesnake, the loss of 50% more damage and HP on light and medium drones is nowhere near worth having 2 Drones that are only equivalent to 5 drones on paper. 5 drones are almost always better than 2 and the 175m3 drone bay only has enough space for the bare minimum operational capacity of drones. No reason to remove missile velocity bonus. The role of the rattlesnake is versatility. This is not the pirate faction battleship we trained for. Nobody trains a snake because they want specialized high-DPS.
Why is does CCP think its okay to screw people over that have spent a lot of time and money training to use these skill intensive battleships by changing them so drastically? The Rattlesnake only needs more high/mid/low slots to come in-line. These drastic changes are totally unnecessary. A disgusting and callous way to treat your customers. Do the right thing and take it back to the drawing board. These changes clearly are not about balance but are instead a forceful and poorly thought-out attempt to make ships unnecessarily more different from each other. The overlap argument doesn't make much sense since the only commonality between Guristas and Gallente is the use of drones. The use of missiles, shield-tanking, the hull, stats and ship maneuverability all are typical of Caldari.
Create new ships if you want ships that use 2 super drones. The Guristas pilots have spoken. Don't be an ******* just because some forum clown likes your dumb ideas. Of course the majority is going to be happy when the ship they don't fly receives glaring weaknesses that it never had before. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
2102
|
Posted - 2014.04.22 06:01:00 -
[1347] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote: Nobody trains a snake because they want specialized high-DPS. That's probably because right now, the Rattlesnake doesn't even provide it. Right now, the Rattlesnake doesn't provide anything worth training for except drones (which other ships can do equally well or better) and a heavy shield tank for AFKing.
If you don't like it, vote with your subscription. Please. I encourage it. |
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
38
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Posted - 2014.04.22 06:38:00 -
[1348] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Fabulous Rod wrote: Nobody trains a snake because they want specialized high-DPS. That's probably because right now, the Rattlesnake doesn't even provide it. Right now, the Rattlesnake doesn't provide anything worth training for except drones (which other ships can do equally well or better) and a heavy shield tank for AFKing. If you don't like it, vote with your subscription. Please. I encourage it.
Try not to fail so hard at reading comprehension and rational thought, clown. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
734
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Posted - 2014.04.22 06:45:00 -
[1349] - Quote
I know on the rattlesnake that we have real concerns with the effective neutering of lit and medium drones on the rattlesnake and Gila.
And how it seems that althought the may be welcome and advantageous bonuses to the missile damage.. And it seems now that the balance has been completely disrupted, i know some will like that the ship can be a more missile ship and drones are now not really an option to fit for, almost always best to fit for millile damage and application mods.
But are we actually missing something and making a false assumption,
When ford bring out a new model, they give their press release and a little speech, must like a dev announcement.
They list the new features, but they do not tend to say, ah the car still has a laminated windscreen and electric windows.
I notice CCP rise does not say " I am unbonusing light and medium drones and give a brief reasoning why"
For ships that are currently drone boats, and flown in that way, that is a curious ommission.
Rather than assume it was deliberate, might it be a more reasonable assumption that he has no intention of making the ships so unbalanced, with such a change to their core useage, that he has no plans to neuter and nerf light and medium drones on these ships at all and we are getting so worried and excited over a simple misunderstanding on our part?
Please CCP rise, put our minds at rest, We are really concerned, and a shame if for nothing but the comfort of a few words. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
Elysian. Heiian Conglomerate
19
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Posted - 2014.04.22 06:56:00 -
[1350] - Quote
Fabulous Rod wrote:On the Rattlesnake, the loss of 50% more damage and HP on light and medium drones is nowhere near worth having 2 Drones that are only equivalent to 5 drones on paper. 5 drones are almost always better than 2 and the 175m3 drone bay only has enough space for the bare minimum operational capacity of drones. No reason to remove missile velocity bonus. The role of the rattlesnake is versatility. This is not the pirate faction battleship we trained for. Nobody trains a snake because they want specialized high-DPS.
Why is does CCP think its okay to screw people over that have spent a lot of time and money training to use these skill intensive battleships by changing them so drastically? The Rattlesnake only needs more high/mid/low slots to come in-line. These drastic changes are totally unnecessary. A disgusting and callous way to treat your customers. Do the right thing and take it back to the drawing board. These changes clearly are not about balance but are instead a forceful and poorly thought-out attempt to make ships unnecessarily more different from each other. The overlap argument doesn't make much sense since the only commonality between Guristas and Gallente is the use of drones. The use of missiles, shield-tanking, the hull, stats and ship maneuverability all are typical of Caldari.
Create new ships if you want ships that use 2 super drones. The Guristas pilots have spoken. Don't be an ******* just because some forum clown likes your dumb ideas. Of course the majority is going to be happy when the ship they don't fly receives glaring weaknesses that it never had before.
With the lights and mediums it really only amounts to a 33% loss of damage and HP, While annoying if their are lots of frigs, Precision cruise missiles and the DDA bonused lights will still destroy the frigs. Most of the time i don't even have to deploy lights cause i hit the Frigs at range.
The drone bay has almost the same effective size, 16 Sentrys worth of space vs 17.5 Sentrys worth of space for the new snake. If you had 3 flights of sentry, and a flight of lights you get the exact same number of flights as the current snake.
The 5v2 Argument DOES have some Merritt. For PVE with sentry's it wont matter much, heavys could get ****** up, Or the New EHP could let them function. PVP, however,with either could be interesting.
The changes don't screw you over unless you use lights and mediums a lot. A slot bonus would just be used for more tank.
Think of it as having 2 Primary weapon systems, Same DPS for pve with drones, But a lot more DPS from missiles. The damage from both are about even. |
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