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Istyn
Freight Club
329
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 05:41:00 -
[31] - Quote
Mike Adoulin wrote:Amyclas Amatin wrote: Suppose instead of having Vendettas, penalties for dodging decs were actually enforced. Unfortunately there are no penalties for dodging decs anymore, CCP no longer considers it an exploit.
The inability to rejoin the corp for the duration of the war or 7 days, whichever is shorter, is the penalty. |
Tarojan
Tarojan Corporation
100
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 05:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
Istyn wrote:Mike Adoulin wrote:Amyclas Amatin wrote: Suppose instead of having Vendettas, penalties for dodging decs were actually enforced. Unfortunately there are no penalties for dodging decs anymore, CCP no longer considers it an exploit. The inability to rejoin the corp for the duration of the war or 7 days, whichever is shorter, is the penalty. What would be the counter mechanic to this vendetta dec? Especially when someone gets dogpiled by multiple (presumably cheap, considering war decs start at 50m and increase on the 'paying for targets' basis) vendetta decs?
the counter is to not undock. Erotica 1: "I would create a massive pyramid scheme in Eve to show you what it is, but I'm an honest business person, so you'll just have to find education elsewhere. Start with the wiki link that was linked by a person who didn't even read what he linked." Theres a reason I play eve XD |
Cannibal Kane
Viziam Amarr Empire
3678
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 06:00:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tarojan wrote:Mike Adoulin wrote:Actually I am making this proposal not because 'I want to shoot stuff', but because once upon a time CCP considered evading war decs an exploit, and NPC corps weren't supposed to be the perfect place to hide, they were supposed to be placeholders while you looked for (or made) a player corp to join.
Altho I admit I want to do something violent when I see one player with 50+ alts in a mining fleet. And they are all in NPC corps.
And yes I'm one of those players that wish CCP would ban ISboxer.
Probably the closest thing to my idea that CCP would even consider is having a wardec 'follow' anyone who dropped corp during a dec (for however long CCP decides), and I would consider that a vast improvement.
As for NPC corps in general, CCP could definitely encourage players to not stay in them by assessing a very high sales tax on ANY financial transaction they make.
Say, 50% or so. On ANY sale or purchase.
Or, even better, simply make it so players in an NPC corp have much larger penalties for reprocessing and manufacturing.
I agree players should be playing together, not ignoring each other and essentially playing solo. The problem is all you have there is a very large stick without any carrots. The current state of the war dec mechanics PUNISHES players foolish enough to leave the npc corps. Gevlon goblin argues that any player in a high sec pve corp is pretty much by definition a moron who doesn't understand the game and should be treated as such: Its hard to argue with him when I see the community treat him as such and feast on the inevitable tears. As it stands the penalty for being in a player corp (your free lunch for predators) doesnt outway any possible benefits. A 50% tax rate? fine my trader character is in its own corp in a station where it never undocks and has perfect refine. It contracts ships to my npc corp miners who contract the ore back to it. Just dodged your stick. wheres your carrot?
You want to dictate how I play my game? I will damn well play SOLO if I want to. Not because you think I am doing it wrong.
"I saw him fight by the monument in Jita. He flowed in his Machariel like a Shinto spirit, 800MM shells sprouting in his passing. His hair flowed in the corona of his target's warp core breach. It was truly majestic. And while everyone stared in awe I stole the loot and ran off. Because I am like that." - NEONOVUS |
Tarojan
Tarojan Corporation
100
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 06:15:00 -
[34] - Quote
Err Mr Kane sir, I wouldn't presume to dictate anything to you at all If i may hesitantly point it out though, you don't play alone from my understanding? the fact the people you play with wouldn't necessarily choose to be playing with you if they had a choice is neither here nor there. Erotica 1: "I would create a massive pyramid scheme in Eve to show you what it is, but I'm an honest business person, so you'll just have to find education elsewhere. Start with the wiki link that was linked by a person who didn't even read what he linked." Theres a reason I play eve XD |
Istyn
Freight Club
329
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 06:56:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tarojan wrote:Istyn wrote:Mike Adoulin wrote:Amyclas Amatin wrote: Suppose instead of having Vendettas, penalties for dodging decs were actually enforced. Unfortunately there are no penalties for dodging decs anymore, CCP no longer considers it an exploit. The inability to rejoin the corp for the duration of the war or 7 days, whichever is shorter, is the penalty. What would be the counter mechanic to this vendetta dec? Especially when someone gets dogpiled by multiple (presumably cheap, considering war decs start at 50m and increase on the 'paying for targets' basis) vendetta decs? the counter is to not undock.
Which is exactly what people complain about when they decide to wardec a 5 man mining corp who, unsurprisingly, just play something else for a week.
That's not a counter. |
Tarojan
Tarojan Corporation
100
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 07:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
same counter if your being corpse camped in a diff mmo: log out as a ghost. War decced and cant drop corp? set your skill queue for a week and go play a different game. Mike Adoulin is trying to solve a problem hes having and I appreciate his issue, BUT you cant force people to play if they arent having fun. Try to force them and you'll just make them stop playing. Thats why I think the ops idea isnt a good one. Erotica 1: "I would create a massive pyramid scheme in Eve to show you what it is, but I'm an honest business person, so you'll just have to find education elsewhere. Start with the wiki link that was linked by a person who didn't even read what he linked." Theres a reason I play eve XD |
Jake Patton
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
64
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 11:16:00 -
[37] - Quote
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:If a player drops corp during nay wardec, they would have a vendetta for the remaining period of the dec. This would turn into a management nightmare. For instance, imagine you dec a small corp and this corp joins a large alliance. From that point on, every member that drops from any corp in that alliance will create a new Vendetta. And when that player joins another corp, a new wardec is created. If the alliance is big enough, the amount of new wars / Vendettas being created will be ridiculously high.
Also, if this works both ways, I can see it being abused for dec sharing. Example, if Alliance A decs Alliance B, players in those alliances can transfer the war to any other entity of their choosing. If it works like that I can see people getting free wars with, for instance, the Goons by exploiting their war with Marmite/Lemmings.
Very soon everyone will be at war with everyone. |
Mike Adoulin
Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters
644
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 12:22:00 -
[38] - Quote
Jake Patton wrote: Very soon everyone will be at war with everyone.
As beautifully glorious that would be to see......yeah, not good for the game.
Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.
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Froggy Storm
The Praxis Initiative Gentlemen's Agreement
204
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 12:28:00 -
[39] - Quote
Perhaps a simpler way to address the "drop corp" dodge on wardecs is for "concord" to put a luxury tax on the process. When a player drops corp during a Dec he or she has to pay a concord filing tax (a percentage of the DEC cost perhaps?) to compensate for the administrative support required to reset global standings across the empire.
This adds some "pain" or detrimental factor for the dropper and gives a much needed isk sink to further stem isk floods. And gives a means for fun new mission class doing concord administration (the last is sarcasm) |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
901
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 14:57:00 -
[40] - Quote
My obligatory chiming in with fixes to existing war mechanics...
- Increase NPC corp taxes to 50%, as incentive for players to join & remain in player (deccable) corps. Incentive, NOT force mind you. You can hide out there forever like a pansy if you insist, but it should cost hella more for that privilege than does today.
- Transfer wars with an individual to his desto corp when leaving corp under wardec. Dropping to an NPC corp? Put him in stasis for 7 days (or duration of dec, whichever is shorter). Joining a corp means you accept the risk of being decced, don't want to be decced then dont join a corp, but you then need to pony up on that 50% NPC corp tax then.
- Put wardec fees into a pot that are claimable by the defender, based on kill values against the aggressor, to try and inspire defenders to come out and fight (or hunt aggressor targets).
Wars should mean something when they happen, and the existing exploit allowing their ducking on a whim closed. Today wars are actually already 100% consensual because pansies can just drop corp, without even paying a premium or delay.
As always, until the above changes are made Lords Of Midnight will continue to hunt down innocent carebears in their mission pockets and shoot them in the face.
F
Would you like to know more? |
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Subject 4927
AwoxxowA
39
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Posted - 2014.04.17 15:59:00 -
[41] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:My obligatory chiming in with fixes to existing war mechanics...
- Increase NPC corp taxes to 50%, as incentive for players to join & remain in player (deccable) corps. Incentive, NOT force mind you. You can hide out there forever like a pansy if you insist, but it should cost hella more for that privilege than does today.
Wars should mean something when they happen, and the existing exploit allowing their ducking on a whim closed. Today wars are actually already 100% consensual because pansies can just drop corp, without even paying a premium or delay.
You still don't get it do you?
I personally don't understand people trying to change highsec and wars. If you wardec a mining corp and they drop to an NPC because 1. They don't know how to pvp 2. Are scared 3. Want to undock. Then who's the complaining child? Do you want to pvp? Wardec a real corp, go to lowsec etc. Sending a war to people who just mine all day comes at a risk. If you can't throw around 50mil worth of isk then please find another hobby.
/scene |
Reppyk
The Black Shell Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
557
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 15:59:00 -
[42] - Quote
To balance the OP idea, you may want to add a little line : - During the vendetta, if the agressor (the one that started the vendetta) is attacking the target, he goes immediately suspect.
So people inside corporations can still be defended by friends. Or a lone freighter in Niarja can hope that Marmitte will save his as-- bottom. I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. -áI AM A LOWSEC GANKER, HIGHSEC SCUM, NULLSEC BASTARD, WORMHOLE INVADER. Welcome to, welcome to, welcome to my scramble. GÖÑ |
Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
54
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 16:05:00 -
[43] - Quote
As others have said, right now Wardecs are dropped because there is generally no reason for the defenders to fight over anything, probably because most wardecs are issued as an attempt to farm kills rather than resolve a conflict. Why do you expect other people to offer themselves up as content for you, and how do you even expect hisec to function if NPC Corps are unlivable and anyone can buy an inescapable week-long "slaughter miners" permit whenever they want for no reason?
Killing people is great and you should do it all the time, but the wardec mechanic isn't some divine mandate for hapless hisec PvE corps to let you farm them.
If you really want to kill miners for no reason, take that wardec fee and use it to fit out a stack of Catalysts. |
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Panhandle Industries Order of the Exalted
460
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 17:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jake Patton wrote:BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:If a player drops corp during nay wardec, they would have a vendetta for the remaining period of the dec. This would turn into a management nightmare. For instance, imagine you dec a small corp and this corp joins a large alliance. From that point on, every member that drops from any corp in that alliance will create a new Vendetta. And when that player joins another corp, a new wardec is created. If the alliance is big enough, the amount of new wars / Vendettas being created will be ridiculously high. Also, if this works both ways, I can see it being abused for dec sharing. Example, if Alliance A decs Alliance B, players in those alliances can transfer the war to any other entity of their choosing. If it works like that I can see people getting free wars with, for instance, the Goons by exploiting their war with Marmite/Lemmings. Very soon everyone will be at war with everyone. Yeah, just trying to brainstorm on how to make such a mechanic manageable. I've never understood why a war dec should be transfered upwards when joining an alliance. Make the corp deal with it themselves, but when it comes time to renew the agressor should have ot pay to dec the full alliance. Vendettas could do the same thing. If they join a corp while under active vendetta, it would not be transferred into a full blown war, but the aggressor would have to pay a (higher) cost to dec the full corp when the vendetta runs out. New player resources: http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Main_Page - General information http://www.evealtruist.com/p/know-your-enemy.html - Learn to PvP http://belligerentundesirables.com/ - Safaris, Awoxes, Ganking and Griefing-á |
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
903
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 18:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
Subject 4927 wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:My obligatory chiming in with fixes to existing war mechanics...
- Increase NPC corp taxes to 50%, as incentive for players to join & remain in player (deccable) corps. Incentive, NOT force mind you. You can hide out there forever like a pansy if you insist, but it should cost hella more for that privilege than does today.
Wars should mean something when they happen, and the existing exploit allowing their ducking on a whim closed. Today wars are actually already 100% consensual because pansies can just drop corp, without even paying a premium or delay.
You still don't get it do you? I personally don't understand people trying to change highsec and wars. If you wardec a mining corp and they drop to an NPC because 1. They don't know how to pvp 2. Are scared 3. Want to undock. Then who's the complaining child? Do you want to pvp? Wardec a real corp, go to lowsec etc. Sending a war to people who just mine all day comes at a risk. If you can't throw around 50mil worth of isk then please find another hobby. /scene The point is if a wardec mechanic is going to exist at all, it should be meaningful. Being able to duck it makes it irrelevant and a broken mechanic. Wars should mean things, today they don't. My ideas tried to address that.
Also, I would say this about any game mechanic that is broken, like 'bounties' for example.... Would you like to know more? |
Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
54
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 19:33:00 -
[46] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Subject 4927 wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:My obligatory chiming in with fixes to existing war mechanics...
- Increase NPC corp taxes to 50%, as incentive for players to join & remain in player (deccable) corps. Incentive, NOT force mind you. You can hide out there forever like a pansy if you insist, but it should cost hella more for that privilege than does today.
Wars should mean something when they happen, and the existing exploit allowing their ducking on a whim closed. Today wars are actually already 100% consensual because pansies can just drop corp, without even paying a premium or delay.
You still don't get it do you? I personally don't understand people trying to change highsec and wars. If you wardec a mining corp and they drop to an NPC because 1. They don't know how to pvp 2. Are scared 3. Want to undock. Then who's the complaining child? Do you want to pvp? Wardec a real corp, go to lowsec etc. Sending a war to people who just mine all day comes at a risk. If you can't throw around 50mil worth of isk then please find another hobby. /scene The point is if a wardec mechanic is going to exist at all, it should be meaningful. Being able to duck it makes it irrelevant and a broken mechanic. Wars should mean things, today they don't. My ideas tried to address that. Also, I would say this about any game mechanic that is broken, like 'bounties' for example....
You can't assign meaning and power to something that can be done by anyone to anyone else at any time for no reason. |
Istyn
Freight Club
329
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 23:04:00 -
[47] - Quote
As someone that has sat and watched jump freighters fly past me after dropping corp... I'm not really convinced corp dropping is that much of a problem. There's the current 7 day/duration of dec stasis period that is an improvement over the previous non-existant punishment mechanic, but, frankly, certain targets are more likely to drop corps than others.
People generally only drop if the corp means nothing other than a chatroom, and those are typically tiny mining outfits or the like. You can't make a war against a meaningless corp meaningful no matter how hard you try, and they will continue to drop no matter what.
If you pick your targets well, you'll fairly rarely experience corp dropping in my experience (albeit, ~2 years ago) - the first step is not dogpiling a 10 man corp with 60 guys and then yelling 'WHY AREN'T YOU UNDOCKING?' at them. |
Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 00:12:00 -
[48] - Quote
I should clarify, just in case it wasn't obvious, that I am 100% in the "Death to Carebears" camp. It's just that complaining about people dropping corp to avoid random wardecs is like bitching at miners for flying Skiffs or mission runners for warping out when your Tornados show up on dscan.
If people are willing to take steps to protect themselves, why shouldn't they be rewarded? |
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar E.A.R.T.H. Federation
423
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 00:39:00 -
[49] - Quote
Nobody should be immune to violence or war. That said, I've always wanted this type of thing for bounty hunting, not necessarily a 1v1 war.
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Moonlit Raid
State War Academy Caldari State
173
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 07:11:00 -
[50] - Quote
Cavalira wrote:Why don't you just move to low/nullsec? Shush, he doesn't want to go against people who want to fight back for heavens sake! If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough. |
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Iudicium Vastus
Incognito Holdings and Savings
256
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 10:59:00 -
[51] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
The point is if a wardec mechanic is going to exist at all, it should be meaningful. Being able to duck it makes it irrelevant and a broken mechanic. Wars should mean things, today they don't. My ideas tried to address that.
Also, I would say this about any game mechanic that is broken, like 'bounties' for example....
Like passing around wardecs on random passerby in a barge or industrial doesn't also make it meaningless. Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW? No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too) |
Subject 4927
The United Nations
40
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 15:42:00 -
[52] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:Subject 4927 wrote:Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:My obligatory chiming in with fixes to existing war mechanics...
- Increase NPC corp taxes to 50%, as incentive for players to join & remain in player (deccable) corps. Incentive, NOT force mind you. You can hide out there forever like a pansy if you insist, but it should cost hella more for that privilege than does today.
Wars should mean something when they happen, and the existing exploit allowing their ducking on a whim closed. Today wars are actually already 100% consensual because pansies can just drop corp, without even paying a premium or delay.
You still don't get it do you? I personally don't understand people trying to change highsec and wars. If you wardec a mining corp and they drop to an NPC because 1. They don't know how to pvp 2. Are scared 3. Want to undock. Then who's the complaining child? Do you want to pvp? Wardec a real corp, go to lowsec etc. Sending a war to people who just mine all day comes at a risk. If you can't throw around 50mil worth of isk then please find another hobby. /scene The point is if a wardec mechanic is going to exist at all, it should be meaningful. Being able to duck it makes it irrelevant and a broken mechanic. Wars should mean things, today they don't. My ideas tried to address that. Also, I would say this about any game mechanic that is broken, like 'bounties' for example....
Right, We all understand that their's a butt load of broken in-game mechanics. That being acknowledged you have to look at both sides of the argument so you can make a educated and unbiased opinion worth writing down. Like Istyn said it's all in the homework, pick your targets correctly.
If they can't fight back or don't know how, should CCP make it so they're fish in a barrel? No. When they drop corp you can buy a few cats and gank his barge if need be. Putting more rules and chains on bears is going to break the game. |
Dalto Bane
Black Swarm Locust
71
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 16:26:00 -
[53] - Quote
Mike Adoulin wrote:So, I was remembering the days when dropping corp to avoid wardecs was considered an exploit.
Ah, memories.
As most of the posters in C&P are aware, it's easy.....too easy....to avoid wardecs.
Not to mention the outright silliness of being immune from hisec wardecs by staying in an NPC corp.
So...I began drinking heavily, and then it came to me in a flash.
What if you could wardec individuals, regardless of what corp they are in?
A new form of wardec, called Vendetta?
Proposal: Anyone can 'Declare a vendetta' vs anyone else for 50 million ISK per week. Both parties in a Vendetta can attack each other anywhere in hisec. Their corpmates (if any) are NOT included in the Vendetta. Dropping/joining corps does NOT shed a Vendetta.
This would include players in NPC corps.
This would be in addition to normal wardecs. IE, someone wardecs my corp, I drop corp, they can't attack me (without getting CONCORDed anyway). If someone also declared a Vendetta against me, that person could attack me (and vice versa) regardless of my corp status.
CAVEAT: Trial accounts cannot declare a Vendetta nor can they be Vendetta'd.
IMO this would add a further element of risk to hisec, and help deal with the whole wardec avoidance exploit (and yes IMO its an exploit).
End of proposal.
*turns on hardeners and gets thermal resist to 99%*
Great minds think alike...
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4465517#post4465517
"Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep." |
Malcolm Shinhwa
Bad Touches
2142
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 17:56:00 -
[54] - Quote
The problem is other than the NPC tax rate, there is no reason to be in a hisec corp at least for most corps. The POCO changes and now the POS/Industry changes are I think working towards changing that. Corporations should have some reason for being, and something worth defending, to exist at all. "You're a d-bag. But you're a caring d-bag." -- Sindel Pellion
***** Psychotic Monk and DJ FunkyBacon for CSM ***** |
gaijiin pok
Scope Works
37
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 23:08:00 -
[55] - Quote
Winchester Steele wrote:Make your vendetta be the penalty for dropping corp during a wardec. You leave corp you are stuck in a vendetta for 7 days with the aggressors corp.
Just a thought.
a damn fine thought!! my previous corp went through a ton of effort in our research of a griefer corporation *(never mind that we fit the same discription) that was bullying a friendly mining/industry corporation who were in the habit of making nice toys for us to play with - our wardec went live and after the first skirmish the rat bastards bailed like rats on a sinking ship - even the ceo jumped to npc closing the corp.
lots of work for such an easy dodge
have a like for such an awesome idea!
now... go run for csm! you would get my vote
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Anya Klibor
Guy Fawkes Trust Fund 31ST Reliables Division
702
|
Posted - 2014.04.20 08:36:00 -
[56] - Quote
Except dropping corp to avoid a wardec was never against the rules. Having your corporation join an alliance only to immediately leave in order to shed war decs was. |
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague Fidelas Constans
73
|
Posted - 2014.04.20 09:25:00 -
[57] - Quote
Mike Adoulin wrote:A new form of wardec, called Vendetta?
Proposal: Anyone can 'Declare a vendetta' vs anyone else for 50 million ISK per week. Both parties in a Vendetta can attack each other anywhere in hisec. Their corpmates (if any) are NOT included in the Vendetta. Dropping/joining corps does NOT shed a Vendett
Vendetta would imply that the person activating it has been wronged against (blood feud etc).
You should change the name to "murderous rampage" as your name tries to look all justified and ****.
Or just name it "blood feud" and extend it from the kill right system.
Edit: if you want to just shoot them, go do it? |
Dsparil Mal
Crime Incorporated
11
|
Posted - 2014.04.20 12:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
I think vendetta would be a great balance to the retribution changes to killrights. It'll make griefing high sec fun again. |
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