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Commander Thrawn
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Posted - 2006.05.13 22:05:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: smallgreenblur
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But they work though. Can kill tacklers and jam enemies for gang mates. Also more efficient at producing killmails than missiles.
Surely A/Cs with their less CPU and better falloff would be a better choice? with barrage L they are perfectly capable of killing frigs in a sphere 50ks or so in diameter :) might have to try that on my next scorp...
sgb
I only use/fly Made in Caldari. Cant fly Gallentean, Amarrian or Minnie-trash.  
lol dont you have 2 or 3 vag BPO's train those minnie skills, your sitting on a gold mine
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.05.13 22:05:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Agent2 Holtze
I thoughed you where joking jenny, that's all ;)
Allthough wouldn't you be better of with missils light, heavies with Precious (or how they are spelled) for killing off frigs and tacklers while jamming and flying aound ? 
Missiles? Too slow. After using turrets, my name on killmails has increased by 100%.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
Corporate Consultation Services
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.05.13 22:08:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Commander Thrawn
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: smallgreenblur
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But they work though. Can kill tacklers and jam enemies for gang mates. Also more efficient at producing killmails than missiles.
Surely A/Cs with their less CPU and better falloff would be a better choice? with barrage L they are perfectly capable of killing frigs in a sphere 50ks or so in diameter :) might have to try that on my next scorp...
sgb
I only use/fly Made in Caldari. Cant fly Gallentean, Amarrian or Minnie-trash.
lol dont you have 2 or 3 vag BPO's train those minnie skills, your sitting on a gold mine
CBA to waste time on cross training. Already heavily specialised in Caldari. Might as well get a professorship in Caldari warfare. Might trade Vagabond for Cerberus. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
Corporate Consultation Services
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Agent2 Holtze
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Posted - 2006.05.13 22:08:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Agent2 Holtze
I thoughed you where joking jenny, that's all ;)
Allthough wouldn't you be better of with missils light, heavies with Precious (or how they are spelled) for killing off frigs and tacklers while jamming and flying aound ?
Missiles? Too slow. After using turrets, my name on killmails has increased by 100%.
okay, i don't got a single SP in missils, so i wouldn' know =)
Amarr 4tw =)
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Aemilus Brutus
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Posted - 2006.05.13 22:23:00 -
[35]
I have used nos, but my cap isn't really the issue, it's my damage output. Also about the Tempest and the Mega, both are getting some help in the next patch with the blaster and artilery improvements. And the Gallente have the a Tier 1 battleship that seems good at mission running. Perhaps I'm not fighting the right NPCs, but do the other factions have NPCs that they have to avoid like I have to avoid, if so then I probably should drop the subject... Yes, everyone keeps bringing up fleet combat and the Raven's possible problems there.... but be honest how much of your game time is spent in a fleet battle? For some of you it's probably a lot, but I bet you're in the minority as far as most players are concerned. I could fly down to amarr space, leave all my corp mates behind... well, no that's not really a good option.
Also read what I said carefully, my Raven with crap sp in shields and missiles is far, far better for NPC killing. Most Amarr pilots have electronics 5 for fitting turrets too, so it isn't like that's a Raven pilot only skill...
I'm not asking for the Apoc to be an I-Win button (which after flying my Apoc so much, the Raven seems really close too), I just think that gun users, and lasers (what I have the most experience with, which may color my viewpoint) may need a little help for us poor casual playing, mission runners, that may see small gang PVP and PVE, but never a fleet battle.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.13 22:26:00 -
[36]
..which NPC's?
Because some NPC types resist EM and thermal well. Simple as that. That's NOT "broken", that's those NPC types. Others sre far more vulnrable.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Agent2 Holtze
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Posted - 2006.05.13 22:33:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Aemilus Brutus
I have used nos, but my cap isn't really the issue, it's my damage output. Also about the Tempest and the Mega, both are getting some help in the next patch with the blaster and artilery improvements. And the Gallente have the a Tier 1 battleship that seems good at mission running. Perhaps I'm not fighting the right NPCs, but do the other factions have NPCs that they have to avoid like I have to avoid, if so then I probably should drop the subject... Yes, everyone keeps bringing up fleet combat and the Raven's possible problems there.... but be honest how much of your game time is spent in a fleet battle? For some of you it's probably a lot, but I bet you're in the minority as far as most players are concerned. I could fly down to amarr space, leave all my corp mates behind... well, no that's not really a good option.
Also read what I said carefully, my Raven with crap sp in shields and missiles is far, far better for NPC killing. Most Amarr pilots have electronics 5 for fitting turrets too, so it isn't like that's a Raven pilot only skill...
I'm not asking for the Apoc to be an I-Win button (which after flying my Apoc so much, the Raven seems really close too), I just think that gun users, and lasers (what I have the most experience with, which may color my viewpoint) may need a little help for us poor casual playing, mission runners, that may see small gang PVP and PVE, but never a fleet battle.
Tell us alittle about your setup and which rats you hunt instead. maybe that is the problem.
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Mazar Byrd
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Posted - 2006.05.13 23:06:00 -
[38]
Put 425mm railguns on your apoc and it will chew up what lasers wont. Fit antimatter for kinetic/thermal. 425s are easier to fit then mega beams/pulses. It only takes a day to train for large hybrid turrets.
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Aemilus Brutus
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Posted - 2006.05.13 23:20:00 -
[39]
I have the misfortune of residing in Lonetrek and running RSS agents, so I get Guristas, Angels, Mercs, and some Sansha as far as npcs. If I'm feeling stupid I'll venture out into low sec, usually in a Maller or Prophecy. Now with lvl3 agents, my geddon, apoc, and prophecy have no problem against anything, even though Angel Ext. is annoying, so I usually turn it down. If I had known how much trouble I would have with lvl 4 versions of these NPCs I may have focused my limited playing time on different agents and in a different region, as it stands now with my limited playtime and somewhat low amarr standing I'm pretty much stuck, unless I spend months slowly working toward good amarr agents far away from my corp, or I head to Gallente space where I can fly decent Federal Int missions.
Setups -
High Slots - 7 or 8 named mega beams, or 6,7, or 8 named Pulse (just bought the best named , pretty much bankrupting me) sometimes I have a cruise missile launcher or 2, sometimes I've used NOS.
Meds - 3 best named cap chargers, either an Afterburner when I have the pulse setup, or a good named target painter, or a fleeting webber, otherwise cruisers are just too hard to hit (even with a tracking implant and motion prediction 5)
Lows - 2 T2 Large reps, 3 N-type hardeners (which ones depends on the NPC), 1 cap relay, one t2 heatsink or another cap relay
Now some Guristas kill missions I've had no problem with, but if I get a decent NPC battleship I have almost no chance of killing it, I just can't ***** their tank, even with multi-frequency.
I can forget running an Angel mission, lasers just don't cut it
That's largely why I'm so annoyed, a mega or a tempest probably would work better in my situation (kinetic damage works great), I know my raven has no real trouble... but my favorite ship, the Apoc, is next to useless.
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Aemilus Brutus
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Posted - 2006.05.13 23:22:00 -
[40]
Will give the rails a try, I've got medium hybrid already so not much more training.
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Commander Thrawn
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Posted - 2006.05.13 23:24:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Mazar Byrd
Put 425mm railguns on your apoc and it will chew up what lasers wont. Fit antimatter for kinetic/thermal. 425s are easier to fit then mega beams/pulses. It only takes a day to train for large hybrid turrets.
a good point
Also if you say you have no problems with cap and you equally have no problems tanking, try a geddon, you'll get a hell of better dmg output with this ship.
apoc really isn't a very good dmg dealer, but i can't say all lasers are gimped therefore causing amarr ships to be doomed. To be honest i don't yet have the skills required to realy fly a amarr Bs well(large energy to 4) but my zealot is one hell of a beast in the dmg departement. 9.16 dmg mod. i don't really care what the resist of npc's are, most die really fast.
try the geddon, see how the goes. And if you can't tank the missions in it and the NPC have high em and thermal resistance, fit hybrids.
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Commander Thrawn
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Posted - 2006.05.13 23:36:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Aemilus Brutus
I have the misfortune of residing in Lonetrek and running RSS agents, so I get Guristas, Angels, Mercs, and some Sansha as far as npcs. If I'm feeling stupid I'll venture out into low sec, usually in a Maller or Prophecy. Now with lvl3 agents, my geddon, apoc, and prophecy have no problem against anything, even though Angel Ext. is annoying, so I usually turn it down. If I had known how much trouble I would have with lvl 4 versions of these NPCs I may have focused my limited playing time on different agents and in a different region, as it stands now with my limited playtime and somewhat low amarr standing I'm pretty much stuck, unless I spend months slowly working toward good amarr agents far away from my corp, or I head to Gallente space where I can fly decent Federal Int missions.
Setups -
High Slots - 7 or 8 named mega beams, or 6,7, or 8 named Pulse (just bought the best named , pretty much bankrupting me) sometimes I have a cruise missile launcher or 2, sometimes I've used NOS.
Meds - 3 best named cap chargers, either an Afterburner when I have the pulse setup, or a good named target painter, or a fleeting webber, otherwise cruisers are just too hard to hit (even with a tracking implant and motion prediction 5)
Lows - 2 T2 Large reps, 3 N-type hardeners (which ones depends on the NPC), 1 cap relay, one t2 heatsink or another cap relay
Now some Guristas kill missions I've had no problem with, but if I get a decent NPC battleship I have almost no chance of killing it, I just can't ***** their tank, even with multi-frequency.
I can forget running an Angel mission, lasers just don't cut it
That's largely why I'm so annoyed, a mega or a tempest probably would work better in my situation (kinetic damage works great), I know my raven has no real trouble... but my favorite ship, the Apoc, is next to useless.
im quite suprised you have this much trouble with mega pulse
but then again im used to killing 0 BS spawns in a apoc. I found 6 tachyon was more then enough to kill most 0 BS spawns, but i was fighting sansha.
maybe try 6 mega pulse and 2 siege launcher(kin dmg)
or try 6 tachyon with the 2 launcher. might be hard to fit, i'll see if i can play around with quickfit for this
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Seleene Ni'Traho
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Posted - 2006.05.13 23:39:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Seleene Ni''Traho on 13/05/2006 23:44:52
I found with my apoc, it's all about closing range with megapulses and rip loose with MF crystals.
My setup for NPC'ing:
6* Modulated Megapulses, 2* Medium Pulse II
1 Gisty X AB, 3* Cap Recharger II
1 LAR II, 3 Hardeners (sometimes 4, eg. vs angels and mercs), HS II, 2* Cap Relays
Vs Blood raiders gives me enough res to tank allmost forever. Use drones + small guns to kill inty's etc.
Vs Minmater it's sower, as the Stabbers stay at range. UV takes them out nicely, though. Only foes I don't close but snipe against are rogue drones. They die nicely at range though.
EG the Vengeance Boss (Guerista or Blood Raider) very fast once you're at 6000 m and rip loose with all guns and 5* medium drones.
Use all your capabilities, use right drones for NPC's type, and you're able to break any tank out there.
(edit: in case you wonder about my skills, forum insists on posting with this char instead of my main :( )
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Commander Thrawn
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Posted - 2006.05.13 23:49:00 -
[44]
so this was done in like 5 second so feel free to make changes
high:
6 Tachyon
2 siege launcher
med: AB II, 3 cap rechargers
low: 1 LAR2, 1 MAR2, 1600 tungston, 2 energize nano2, 2 cap relay or in your case two heatsinks if your cap if fine, and a RC tech 2
reactor tech 2 required or that second seige isn't gonna fit. maybe if you took the AB out you could fit a tech 1 RC. Same thing with a second large armor rep, i could only get one in and this wont change if you take the AB out. i added a med rep to help. I personally perfer passive tank with tach since they eat cap like mad. but if you find it work will fell free to fit dmg mods as the dmg is the issue here
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Aemilus Brutus
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Posted - 2006.05.14 00:23:00 -
[45]
Most of the suggested setups are close to what I've used, I'll try another round of level 4s with my new pulse lasers and some of these setups and see if they go any better. Thanks for the advice, but I get the feeling I may just have to be another Raven pilot if I'm going to make decent use of my time  which is why I'm a little annoyed with the balance in the game... but that tier 3 amarr battleship looks great and I still have a Nightmare to aim for so I won't stay annoyed with the game for too long
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d'hofren
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Posted - 2006.05.14 01:20:00 -
[46]
Edited by: d''hofren on 14/05/2006 01:21:28
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Agent2 Holtze
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Eximius Josari
My ships require heavy investments in Lasers, Missiles, Drones, Shields, and Armor. 
Pfffttt... OK I use BlasterScorp so my skills require heavy investments in Gunnery, Missiles, Drones, Electronics, Engineering and Mechanic. 
lol.
Why LOL? 
I think the point is:
Your one specialised / niche blaster scorp setup require these skills.
Any minmatar pilot requires all of these plus the shield tanking stuff as well.
welcome to the world of the minmatar.
(i am grumpy today sorry)
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
Galactic Exploration and Mining - Web and T II Shop
(Including Cerbs)
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Kolhell
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Posted - 2006.05.14 01:26:00 -
[47]
seeing as the raven is viewed as the ultimate npcing ship, should you really be all that surprised? missiles have amazing dps, hit accurately at all ranges, take less effort to use, and take less sp to be good with them, but they have their own problems as well. missiles are worthless at extreme ranges because your target will warp out by the time it gets to him, making ravens useless in fleet battles. different weapons, different strengths, different weaknesses, different uses.
you might also want to consider the types of rats you were facing - i fly minmatar and reside in impass (angel rats) and my phoon shield tanks with 4 mid slots better than it armor tanks with 7 lows solely because angels do a high amount of explosive damage. go fight some sanshas with your raven and your apoc and then see which tanks better.
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bury the hatchet |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.14 01:39:00 -
[48]
Aemilus Brutus,
Try carrying a Nos and draining the BS you're fighting. Does wonders for killing its tank. And maybe carry missile launchers loaded with kinetic missiles.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
twit brent
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Posted - 2006.05.14 10:35:00 -
[49]
An armageddon will get your dps up but you will have to sacrifce a bit of tank.
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Kilo Paskaa
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Posted - 2006.05.14 10:48:00 -
[50]
Quote:
Moral of story, missiles are different than turrets. Doesn't change the fact that by only looking at this graph then I'd put my money on the Raven but that doesn't have so much to do ...
¦Tux said.
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As you can see, i pwned Kieron for iskies. |
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Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2006.05.14 11:11:00 -
[51]
this is what i use and it's quite common afaik
8x megapulse II (some switch the last for a cruiser launcher due to pg problems)
AB, 3x cap recharger
2x LAR II, 3x racial hardeners (2x thermal 1x em for sansha's) 2x cap relay
with good skills everything runs forever (get decent cap rechargers man)
wtf pwns just about anything
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Da Death
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Posted - 2006.05.14 11:21:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Aemilus Brutus
First point, I am going to write about the Raven some, I DO NOT want the Raven nerfed, that is not what is post is about. This post is about my slight disappointment in the current state of Amarr ships,lasers and guns in general...
/.signed
Absolution - Curse - T2 Laser Crystals - T2 Drones and more -> check Bio
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.05.14 11:22:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: smallgreenblur
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But they work though. Can kill tacklers and jam enemies for gang mates. Also more efficient at producing killmails than missiles.
Surely A/Cs with their less CPU and better falloff would be a better choice? with barrage L they are perfectly capable of killing frigs in a sphere 50ks or so in diameter :) might have to try that on my next scorp...
sgb
I only use/fly Made in Caldari. Cant fly Gallentean, Amarrian or Minnie-trash.
Why Jenny... oh why say such hurtful things?!
Originally by: "Oveur"
I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Kunming
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Posted - 2006.05.14 11:23:00 -
[54]
Nerf the raven already,
Raven can choose dmg type
Raven can tank, gank, jam at the same time
Raven will always hit you
Raven will always NOS the juice out of you at close range with its standart 2 Heavy NOS - 6 launcher setup
To beat a raven u need at least 4 heavy nos (to break its tank) and drones (incase he jams you) and a godly tank of your own...
Every raven pilot knows its overpowered, none of them will admit it as its the I-WIN button for most stuff except fleet battles @ 150+ km.
Now that caldari are even getting a rail boat for fleet battles (oh the whinage we had to hear from caldari pilots to make this finally happen) whats really the point for training up another race? And why is CCP constantly catering for caldari, is it cause majority of the ppl are caldari maybe, or is it cause that majority can cause the loudest whinage??
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Kye Kenshin
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Posted - 2006.05.14 11:29:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Kunming
Nerf the raven already,
Raven can choose dmg type
Raven can tank, gank, jam at the same time
Raven will always hit you
Raven will always NOS the juice out of you at close range with its standart 2 Heavy NOS - 6 launcher setup
To beat a raven u need at least 4 heavy nos (to break its tank) and drones (incase he jams you) and a godly tank of your own...
Every raven pilot knows its overpowered, none of them will admit it as its the I-WIN button for most stuff except fleet battles @ 150+ km.
Now that caldari are even getting a rail boat for fleet battles (oh the whinage we had to hear from caldari pilots to make this finally happen) whats really the point for training up another race? And why is CCP constantly catering for caldari, is it cause majority of the ppl are caldari maybe, or is it cause that majority can cause the loudest whinage??
Aye, completely agree.
Nothing wrong with amarr BS or any other BS for that matter (apart from domi but thats due to overpowered ECM) the raven just makes the other BS look inferior.
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Mizura
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Posted - 2006.05.14 11:33:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kunming
Nerf the raven already,
Raven can choose dmg type
Raven can tank, gank, jam at the same time
Raven will always hit you
Raven will always NOS the juice out of you at close range with its standart 2 Heavy NOS - 6 launcher setup
Dominix can choose damage type (Drones)
Dominix can tank, gank, jam at the same time.
Dominix can arguably always hit you (Drones)
Dominix will NOS the juice out of you at close range.
Clearly the Dominix should also be nerfed, or maybe you guys should adapt
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2006.05.14 11:36:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Vishnej on 14/05/2006 11:42:09
What I don't get is why the Guristas rats have awesome EM shield resists - usually better than the other resists. It's never made since to me, since shields are the weakest EM on player ships, and we have Minmatar rats to hate on Amarr. Take a look:
http://tinyurl.com/othvl
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MELEK ICO
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Posted - 2006.05.14 11:44:00 -
[58]
well i dont think a raven is overpowered. I am a raven pilot and i know ppl from my corp that can take me out in ships from other races. The tempest can take my raven out very fast the only thing i can do to help my self is warp at 150km and use the range to do some damage to him before he gets too close. I think all the ships are the same its only up to you to make them work good and i have seen an apoc take out a npc raven faster than i can do it with my rave so plz dont say the raven is overpowered. Just take a look at what you are using and how and get a better setup and you should be fine all the ships in the game can do all the missions and how much more are you gonna want to make the raven wors look at the rof on the raven and look at yours rof and the damage you can do with good skills. And lets not even talk about which ship is better for tanking raven or the apoc. The apoc will tank so much better than the raven so stop complaning and play the game and finde a way to be more eficient. I can be here and cry about how good the tempest or the marchinel is i can tank them buhu. If i see a good apoc pilote i cant tank him for as long as he can tank me its all the same stop complaining.
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Brother Tycho
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Posted - 2006.05.14 11:54:00 -
[59]
i NPC on Guristas in 0.0 with a Geddon and have no problems its just takes a longer than it would if i was in my t1 raven, but thats kinda funny with my 1 mill sp in missles and 12 mill sp in gunnery anyway i use this setup for Guristas.
7 megapulse II, 1 hvy nos
AB II, 2 Cap charger II
1 LAR II, 3 Active Hardners,1 HS II,2 Cap Relays,1 Diagnostic II
requires advanced wep upgrades 4 to fit last hvy nos.
i just AB into Multi Opt and f1-f8 they die just as fast as they would to a raven its just the getting to range part thats a pain.
i do understand why people complain about the raven all the time it can NPC any place in 0.0 with a t1 setup with no problems and not require tons of sp, ravens are about as near to the I win button for pve as we can get ingame,
dont give up on Amarr getting a zelot will change your who outlook.
-------------[B«+tHd« T¦¦H+]-------------
åå Spreading the good word since beta åå |
Kunming
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Posted - 2006.05.14 12:10:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Mizura
Originally by: Kunming
Nerf the raven already,
Raven can choose dmg type
Raven can tank, gank, jam at the same time
Raven will always hit you
Raven will always NOS the juice out of you at close range with its standart 2 Heavy NOS - 6 launcher setup
Dominix can choose damage type (Drones)
Dominix can tank, gank, jam at the same time.
Dominix can arguably always hit you (Drones)
Dominix will NOS the juice out of you at close range.
Clearly the Dominix should also be nerfed, or maybe you guys should adapt
Yeah maybe domi needs a nerf too but THIS THREAD is more about raven vs other BS not missiles vs drones or drones vs turrets.. but I can take down a domi in an arbitrator (its a frikkin cruiser), hardly the case against a raven.
- Drones can be killed, jammed, tracking disrupted etc.
Missiles cant be killed, jammed (FoF), tracking disrupted etc.
- Drones move much slower than missiles (my missiles cant insta hit whAAAAA.. remember these threads?)
- Drones have a rather limited max range compared to missiles.
- Drones are not fire and forget like missiles, if u leave the battlefield without scooping them back you will lose all your offensive power.
About jamming, its gonna get nerfed anyway, BUT do I need to remind you that ECM is actually the CALDARI EW?.. sensor damp gall, tracking disr. amarr etc.
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