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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1108
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 02:41:00 -
[31] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote: Expenditure, or Cost is not a balancing factor. That's something CCP learned the hard way after Capital, Super Capital, and Titan Proliferation.
So again: Eve isn't balanced on Expenditure vs. Reward. Eve is balanced on Risk vs. Reward.
Yet they still perpetuate it with pirate and faction ships and modules. I think you've made a mistake in determining what was learned. Cost balancing was not an issue, we still see it in the balancing of higher tech level and faction ships. It's the assumption of long term scarcity. That was the issue behind capital and supercap problems. So yes, eve IS balanced around expenditure providing reward. Nope, T2 offers specialization vs. increased power (e.g. covops cloaking). T3 was planned to offers customization, not increased power per se. Oh and T3 is getting nerfed soon ("The dog drooling all over the carpet" is how a Dev stated it). Cost isn't a balancing factor. It is, though I can see selective reading contributing to your conclusion. Even if you limit the range to T1 v T2 that specialization is a performance improvement in the area which a particular ship is specialized, which again is a reward, for isk expenditure.
Cost is a balancing factor. |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
996
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Posted - 2014.04.17 02:45:00 -
[32] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Goldiiee wrote: Expenditure is the same as Investment.
False. Buying a glass of coke is an expenditure. Buying Bonds is an investment. See the difference? Goldiiee wrote:Time, ISK, Money = Actual Risk. False again, for the same reason. Working a job as a middle management office rat (i.e. spending your time) is not a risk. Buying a glass of coke (spending money) is not a risk. I can see why you have a problem with the concept of Risk. I can see where you get all this confused, you seem to only identify Risk when it's supported as a gamble, not when it's weighed against an Investment, most poor investors do the same it's a good habit to get out of to succeed.
I risked my time expecting to have an advantage granted me for risking that time, I was awarded certain advantages that are now being given away for free to everyone. My Risk was Rewarded with a Kick in the face.
That you don't agree is of little consequence, 95% of the people on the planet get simple things like the difference between Finance and Investing wrong but are still convinced they are right.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1415
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Posted - 2014.04.17 02:51:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:which again is a reward, for isk expenditure.
Cost is a balancing factor. Here's your problem.
A Cynabal or a Vagabond or an SFI are all more powerful then a Stabber. They are also all more expensive. Does it therefore follow that cost is a a balancing factor?
No. Why? Because the Cynabal being more powerful than the Stabber does not mean it is unbalanced. The stabber can be weaker than the Cynabal without either of them being unbalanced. The Cynabal could also be weaker than the stabber, and there would still be no balance problems. There would be a risk v reward problem, but that isn't a a balance problem.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:which again is a reward, for isk expenditure.
If you take a Cynabal into PvP, you may kill more than a Stabber. But that is a reward for risking the Cynabal, not buying the Cynabal.
I can buy a Cynabal (spending isk) and keep it in my hangar. I will never be rewarded for that expenditure. I can fly my cynabal into nullsec, and I might be rewarded for taking that risk. That is the difference. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1415
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 02:53:00 -
[34] - Quote
Goldiiee wrote: I can see where you get all this confused, you seem to only identify Risk when it's supported as a gamble, not when it's weighed against an Investment, most poor investors do the same it's a good habit to get out of to succeed.
If I buy a glass of coke, is it an investment? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1108
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 03:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:No. Why? Because the Cynabal being more powerful than the Stabber does not mean it is unbalanced. The stabber can be weaker than the Cynabal without either of them being unbalanced. The Cynabal could also be weaker than the stabber, and there would still be no balance problems. There would be a risk v reward problem, but that isn't a a balance problem. This is contradictory. You've now stated an expenditure can be counted as risk, which directly contradicts the idea that expenditure shouldn't contribute to reward. You also thated that there is a risk reward problem, and prior stated that balance on reward is based upon risk, yet somehow this doesn't create an imbalance.
Wat?
Quote: If you take a Cynabal into PvP, you may kill more than a Stabber. But that is a reward for risking the Cynabal, not buying the Cynabal.
I can buy a Cynabal (spending isk) and keep it in my hangar. I will never be rewarded for that expenditure. I can fly my cynabal into nullsec, and I might be rewarded for taking that risk. That is the difference.
Obviously an unused advantage doesn't reap reward, but then, I'm not seeing anyone saying high standings alone should cause isk to fall into ones wallet. The use of those standings, much like your example, is what provided reward.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1108
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 03:05:00 -
[36] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Goldiiee wrote: I can see where you get all this confused, you seem to only identify Risk when it's supported as a gamble, not when it's weighed against an Investment, most poor investors do the same it's a good habit to get out of to succeed.
If I buy a glass of coke, is it an investment? If you resell it for more, yes.
Edit: Or use it to enhance another product or service which you offer. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1415
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 03:08:00 -
[37] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Goldiiee wrote: I can see where you get all this confused, you seem to only identify Risk when it's supported as a gamble, not when it's weighed against an Investment, most poor investors do the same it's a good habit to get out of to succeed.
If I buy a glass of coke, is it an investment? If you resell it for more, yes. Edit: Or use it to enhance another product or service which you offer. Good luck reselling a single glass of coke, if that's the train of thought you need to follow, then my point is made for me. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
899
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 03:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Goldiiee wrote: I can see where you get all this confused, you seem to only identify Risk when it's supported as a gamble, not when it's weighed against an Investment, most poor investors do the same it's a good habit to get out of to succeed.
If I buy a glass of coke, is it an investment?
The fact that you can purchase a glass of coke would tend to indicate that people do invest in glasses of coke and profit from them. You haven't provided enough information for us to know whether you intend profit seeking with it or not.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1108
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 03:11:00 -
[39] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Goldiiee wrote: I can see where you get all this confused, you seem to only identify Risk when it's supported as a gamble, not when it's weighed against an Investment, most poor investors do the same it's a good habit to get out of to succeed.
If I buy a glass of coke, is it an investment? If you resell it for more, yes. Edit: Or use it to enhance another product or service which you offer. Good luck reselling a single glass of coke, if that's the train of thought you need to follow, then my point is made for me. So basically your issue is your lack of creativity and resourcefulness. Gotcha. Nothing i can do about that really.
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PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1415
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 03:11:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Goldiiee wrote: I can see where you get all this confused, you seem to only identify Risk when it's supported as a gamble, not when it's weighed against an Investment, most poor investors do the same it's a good habit to get out of to succeed.
If I buy a glass of coke, is it an investment? The fact that you can purchase a glass of coke would tend to indicate that people do invest in glasses of coke and profit from them. You haven't provided enough information for us to know whether you intend profit seeking with it or not. Thank you for proving my point. Lol. Introduction to Economics 102: Profit-Seeking with a Glass of Coke. |
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PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1415
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 03:14:00 -
[41] - Quote
My point, for those that missed it, is that not every single thing we spend time or money on in our lives is an investment or a risk. Spending isk, money, or time does not necessarily imply investment or risk.
For those that disagree with this one simple point, I fart in your general direction. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
1108
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 03:14:00 -
[42] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Tauranon wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Goldiiee wrote: I can see where you get all this confused, you seem to only identify Risk when it's supported as a gamble, not when it's weighed against an Investment, most poor investors do the same it's a good habit to get out of to succeed.
If I buy a glass of coke, is it an investment? The fact that you can purchase a glass of coke would tend to indicate that people do invest in glasses of coke and profit from them. You haven't provided enough information for us to know whether you intend profit seeking with it or not. Thank you for proving my point. Lol. Introduction to Economics 102: Profit-Seeking with a Glass of Coke. You know, it's funny how so many companies around here have rules about socializing with potential clients or business partners because of the difficult to quantify affect a single drink or meal could have. Like I said, if all you can see is a glass of coke, it's you that is the issue, not the coke.
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Muestereate
Minions LLC
297
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 03:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ganking appears to be alive and well in Osmon. None of my business but the answer seemed so obvious I assumed I must be mistaken and had to look it up again. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
1416
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 03:44:00 -
[44] - Quote
Muestereate wrote:Ganking appears to be alive and well in Osmon. None of my business but the answer seemed so obvious I assumed I must be mistaken and had to look it up again. Yeah if you run missions in a bling fit ship or under war dec, you'll get ganked.
If we're assuming the mission runner is a total moron, then yes there's "risk". |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
25228
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 05:18:00 -
[45] - Quote
OK, I read this whole thread and what was the topic about again?
Umm, Faction standing requirements being removed for POS anchoring in high sec systems?
Is there a link to a Dev Blog about this or is this just conjecture?
DMC Faction Standing Repair Plan | California Eve Players | (Proposal) Bring Back 'The Endless Battle' Missions |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4731
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 05:23:00 -
[46] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:OK, I read this whole thread and what was the topic about again? Umm, Faction standing requirements being removed for POS anchoring in high sec systems? Is there a link to a Dev Blog about this or is this just conjecture? DMC
Right below your portrait at the top of the forums, there is a button that says "Dev Blogs". "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
20880
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 05:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
I just have one thing to say about standings being kicked in the crotch. It deserved it, and I hope we see more of it in the near future. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
25228
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 05:34:00 -
[48] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:OK, I read this whole thread and what was the topic about again? Umm, Faction standing requirements being removed for POS anchoring in high sec systems? Is there a link to a Dev Blog about this or is this just conjecture? DMC Right below your portrait at the top of the forums, there is a button that says "Dev Blogs". So what? A link to the Dev Blog should have been posted in the op to begin with, especially since the op pertains to it.
Also I'm not gonna waste my time searching for it when there's way too much crap to sift through here in this sub-forum.
DMC Faction Standing Repair Plan | California Eve Players | (Proposal) Bring Back 'The Endless Battle' Missions |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
4736
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 05:35:00 -
[49] - Quote
DeMichael Crimson wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:OK, I read this whole thread and what was the topic about again? Umm, Faction standing requirements being removed for POS anchoring in high sec systems? Is there a link to a Dev Blog about this or is this just conjecture? DMC Right below your portrait at the top of the forums, there is a button that says "Dev Blogs". So what? A link to the Dev Blog should have been posted in the op to begin with, especially since the op pertains to it. Also I'm not gonna waste my time searching for it when there's way too much crap to sift through here in this sub-forum. DMC
It's literally two clicks, and he can't be asked.
Gotta love carebears... "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
187
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 06:24:00 -
[50] - Quote
Missions are awful. Having to grind them forever in order to do things in EVE is probably not a great idea. I'm grinding standing with a corp up to 8 now, so I can install jump clones in the system I moved to. Rather than continuing to make them in my old home on the other side of empire space and moving them over. It blows. I can only run a few missions at a time before I get really antsy and want to scream like a madman and run up and down the street naked with a package of cold cut meats stapled to me in various places. Next I'll probably give in and grind missions a bit on my market alt to evade taxes. That'll be a blast.
If allowing any noob to set up a tower in hisec is an offensive idea, I guess they could make them like ships and work skills into it more. Require Anchoring 5. Rename Starbase Defense Management to Starbase Operation, and require lvl 1 for a small tower, lvl 3 for a medium, and lvl 5 for a large. So nobody would be able to anchor a large tower until they are actually capable of fully doing their part in its defense.
I dunno why anyone wants to babysit a POS anyway. Just another part of EVE that is annoying as hell.
FEED ME SEYMOURE!!! |
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Rolstra
Moo's Mudpit
21
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Posted - 2014.04.17 17:49:00 -
[51] - Quote
Well I guess if the Attributes that standings gave are no longer relevant then hindsight shows it was most certainly a risk grinding them. Industrialist should have done what all the other lazy players did and buy a Corp with standings rather than build one of your own. Eve-Online's new Motto 'Don't build it Buy it'.
So Risk with no Reward. |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
2882
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 20:01:00 -
[52] - Quote
Standings could reduce the science and industry taxes/fees by up to a certain percentage. NPC corporation standings work on stations and faction standings on the POS. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
697
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 20:22:00 -
[53] - Quote
Patri Andari wrote:I am not asking that CCP stop making changes to the game. I am asking that you stop allowing people to waste time doing things you know will be useless when you know it right now!
The you should ask CCP to remove standings as fast as possible. It's always been a stupid game mechanic in any game with no useful purpose, even more so in a game like EVE.
Remove insurance. |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
327
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 20:25:00 -
[54] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Patri Andari wrote:In Law there is a well known doctrine of Reliance
I have no interest in educating the trolls on the importance or niceties of this doctrine, but it basically holds that leaving someone holding a bag you know will go sour will make you liable if you know they relied on past promises and you know they will not apply in the future. While I have no intention of ever pursuing an action, I think the spirit of this doctrine makes for good neighbors.
Do not sell me a house you know will be condemned unless you share that knowledge. Internet Spaceship Lawyers. *Sigh* Do you know how you get trolls? You get trolls when people repeatedly and incessantly post the same garbage on a particular forum with little or no variation. A good example: applying RL law, precedent, and custom to what happens in a videogame. "Intention of ever pusuing action" ~ lol. Do you want trolls? This is how you get trolls.
Apparently you get trolls by shutting them down and then watching them scramble around like ants trying to label their destroyer as the troll. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
25286
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 20:37:00 -
[55] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:DeMichael Crimson wrote:OK, I read this whole thread and what was the topic about again? Umm, Faction standing requirements being removed for POS anchoring in high sec systems? Is there a link to a Dev Blog about this or is this just conjecture? DMC Right below your portrait at the top of the forums, there is a button that says "Dev Blogs". So what? A link to the Dev Blog should have been posted in the op to begin with, especially since the op pertains to it. Also I'm not gonna waste my time searching for it when there's way too much crap to sift through here in this sub-forum. DMC It's literally two clicks, and he can't be asked. Gotta love carebears...
Unfortunately can't say the same for Forum trolls and judging by your replies, you're definitely working hard at training level 5.
DMC
Faction Standing Repair Plan | California Eve Players | (Proposal) Bring Back 'The Endless Battle' Missions |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1441
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 22:04:00 -
[56] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:PotatoOverdose wrote:Goldiiee wrote: I can see where you get all this confused, you seem to only identify Risk when it's supported as a gamble, not when it's weighed against an Investment, most poor investors do the same it's a good habit to get out of to succeed.
If I buy a glass of coke, is it an investment? If you resell it for more, yes. Edit: Or use it to enhance another product or service which you offer. Good luck reselling a single glass of coke, if that's the train of thought you need to follow, then my point is made for me. hm.... you bought it somewhere? So it IS tradeable. So it CAN be sold again.
Yea, that was really difficult The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
643
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Posted - 2014.04.17 22:31:00 -
[57] - Quote
I clearly remember a time before high sec POSs. The standing system was the same, and I assure you mission running and Eve in general functions just as well as it does now.
Faction and corp standing are just 2 more variables in a sea of variables that CCP ties to game systems as they see fit. |
Muestereate
Minions LLC
304
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 22:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:My point, for those that missed it, is that not every single thing we spend time or money on in our lives is an investment or a risk. Spending isk, money, or time does not necessarily imply investment or risk. For those that disagree with this one simple point, I fart in your general direction.
Everything that involve probability weighing on the accuracy of predictable outcomes is called risk. Anything that increase the accuracy of the predicted outcome decreases risk.
If you take one cycnabal against another cynabal, you expose yourself so a certain percentage of chance that you are not going win. If you take two cynabals against one, the chances of you losing goes down. by puttin two cynabals in the fight you have decreased your risk and not doubled your risk as your logic implies. You knowledge of risk versus reward is incomplete if you do not factor in changes in probability. |
Masuka Taredi
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
70
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 22:51:00 -
[59] - Quote
Adapt and move on. |
Adunh Slavy
1360
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 23:28:00 -
[60] - Quote
Some recent vid said something like "The empires are losing control" ... there's your vague hint. Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.-á-á- William Pitt |
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