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Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2621
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Posted - 2014.04.17 02:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
The rookie systems provide an area of EVE that is (almost) PVP-exempt, to let players learn the game interface in a sheltered environment. Various forms of PVP are expressly banned in these systems - invading missions to hold objectives hostage, suicide ganking, suspect games and the like.
However, this protection is routinely exploited by fleets of mining barges and exhumers (often with Orca support) who are not rookies and who engage in a (presently allowed) form of PVP against the actual rookies - competition for limited asteroid resources. This results in confusion for rookies who cannot find their 333 Veldspar for the tutorials and have to travel to surrounding systems, and is particularly evident during AU peak time (just before the downtime reset of asteroid fields).
My proposal is for a CCP policy change that removes this loophole, and allows only ships that rookies can fly (rookie ships, Ventures, and the other ships rookies use to mine because they do not know better - destroyers, frigates, Iterons and cruisers) to mine in these systems.
In particular, ships that require a week to train into (barges), a month (exhumers) or two months (Orca) would be disallowed from mining in those belts.
This would be in-line with the restrictions against other forms of PVP in those systems. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=326497 --áPsychotic Monk for CSM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
567
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Posted - 2014.04.17 04:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
This would be a very sad day if this happens. I remember when I was weeks old and just into my first hauling bestower teaming up with another new player (Russian) who just got into his first barge, a retriever. We mined every night for a lot of weeks and made what I considered a lot of ISK at the time. I hauled, he mined and we split the yield in equal shares. This was my first good experience in EVE. I would hate to deny other new players this fledgling mining experience just because someone didn't like that barges were able to get into a "rookie system".
-1 on the idea. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Asia Leigh
Beyond New Frontier
114
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Posted - 2014.04.17 04:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
eh...
The rules say your not allowed to 'grief' rookies in the rookie systems. We can assume that people in orca's and exhumers are not rookies. My question then becomes, Are we allowed to suicide gank people in rookie systems that clearly aren't rookies? I've never seen anything concrete on this.
I would probably give the T1 mining barges a pass as they can be trained for under a week with the booster, but that's an edge case at best. Erotica 1: Scams someone-á-á Ripard: Makes inflamatory blog post that incites eve community and the MMO community-á Sohkar: I wasn't harrased-á-á-á-áCCP: Banned-á-á-á Moral of this story? If you don't want to get banned, don't **** off CSM |
Asia Leigh
Beyond New Frontier
114
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Posted - 2014.04.17 04:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:This would be a very sad day if this happens. I remember when I was weeks old and just into my first hauling bestower teaming up with another new player (Russian) who just got into his first barge, a retriever. We mined every night for a lot of weeks and made what I considered a lot of ISK at the time. I hauled, he mined and we split the yield in equal shares. This was my first good experience in EVE. I would hate to deny other new players this fledgling mining experience just because someone didn't like that barges were able to get into a "rookie system".
-1 on the idea.
I think he is talking about the 20 man fleets that goes in with hulks and orca's that clearly aren't new players as they require months to train for.
Erotica 1: Scams someone-á-á Ripard: Makes inflamatory blog post that incites eve community and the MMO community-á Sohkar: I wasn't harrased-á-á-á-áCCP: Banned-á-á-á Moral of this story? If you don't want to get banned, don't **** off CSM |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2621
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Posted - 2014.04.17 04:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:This would be a very sad day if this happens. I remember when I was weeks old and just into my first hauling bestower teaming up with another new player (Russian) who just got into his first barge, a retriever. We mined every night for a lot of weeks and made what I considered a lot of ISK at the time. I hauled, he mined and we split the yield in equal shares. This was my first good experience in EVE. I would hate to deny other new players this fledgling mining experience just because someone didn't like that barges were able to get into a "rookie system".
-1 on the idea.
That other player wasn't a rookie, they were flying a ship that takes a full week to train into. (Edit: Historically some barges did not take that long to train into IIRC, but they all take a week now). There is a reason that newbie systems do not have level 3 security mission agents in them or DED 3/10 complexes (two other activities risk-averse players might take part in after a week of training).
I really don't care that much about the corner cases like that though, it's the whole fleets of multiboxed (or maybe botted) Mackinaws and Retrievers with Orca support that are the ones griefing rookies by preventing them learning the mining interface. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=326497 --áPsychotic Monk for CSM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
363
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Posted - 2014.04.17 08:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'd be fine with disallowing orca and the like along with exhumers, but retriever should stay as it is the next step up from venture(or rather a big sideways step as they are intended for different things) so a couched +1 from me |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
156
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Posted - 2014.04.17 09:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
limit the exclusion to (all) T2 ships and the orca maybe? For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
5
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Posted - 2014.04.17 09:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
Like many, exhumers and orca shouldn't be able to enter/use belts in rookie systems, but mining barge should.
Rookies can focus fast enough mining barge now (admitting they get the money too) to be able to fly one in a few day/week.
So, the two choices are : - disallow exhumers/orca in rookie - allow people to gank player older than, let's say, 2 weeks (2weeks player are not rookie)
But in some case, seeing people beeing gank while players are still rookies (especially in belts) can prevent them from playing anymore EVE, as it "may be too risky" for the way the want to play the game. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1256
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Posted - 2014.04.17 09:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
Like the last dozen times this came up, I'm going to say this. You are trying the wrong solution.
The problem is nothing to do with the barges. It's to do with the tied to downtime mechanic of respawning asteroids. Asteroid belts should simply be removed. We already have a great system in Null Industry respawning grav clusters of ores. This makes a lot more sense in grav clusters appearing at weak larange points randomly, rather than the once a day respawn and some time zones are at a disadvantage if they are late in the EVE day.
This then solves the multibox mining fleet issue since the newbie just has to wait a little while. While creating a more even experience regardless of timezone. |
Dreadchain
Lavateinn
69
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Posted - 2014.04.17 10:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Like the last dozen times this came up, I'm going to say this. You are trying the wrong solution.
I don't think spawning infinite ore in highsec is exactly a good idea. We have enough of those 50 man macrofleets running 16 hours a day, don't want to fuel the fire even more. Anomalies would be a good thing with some changes to how they work in 0.0, but that's a topic for another thread.
Barges cleaning out the newbie systems right after downtime is disgusting. For example, look at this thread:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=337571&find=unread
And if you've been in the rookie channel recently, this is one of the most common questions to see, to the point where some of the newbies just quit in their confusion.
There's a few solutions, but personally I think older players shouldn't be allowed to do any for-profit activities in these systems.
www.minerbumping.com |
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Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
156
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Posted - 2014.04.17 11:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
how about - players older than a month may not undock in or enter this system when piloting any of the following ships: mining barge, exhumer, industrial command ship (covert ops, AF, 'ceptor, EA frig, bomber, 'dictor, HAC, HIC, recon, Strat cruiser, Command ship, BlOps, marauder) not that Logistics cruisers are permitted, as are industrials, BR's and DST's For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2627
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 12:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:how about - players older than a month may not undock in or enter this system when piloting any of the following ships: mining barge, exhumer, industrial command ship (covert ops, AF, 'ceptor, EA frig, bomber, 'dictor, HAC, HIC, recon, Strat cruiser, Command ship, BlOps, marauder) not that Logistics cruisers are permitted, as are industrials, BR's and DST's EDIT - how about you can undock in the bare/exhumer/orca, but become a suspect for doing so in a rookie sys? risk vs reward and all that
There's not really much you can do to disrupt rookies in combat ships (other than ganking which in these systems is not allowed). Someone in a Marauder isn't going to compete with rookies for the required kills in a mission (and if they were, GMs would tell them to stop it).
I don't care if someone spends ten minutes in a Procurer (which is the actual next step from a venture) once, but the 15 Retriever fleets are sabotaging rookie missions for profit, something CCP have clear policies against that even extend to the Sisters epic arc, but that a loophole exists for mining.
I'd propose that minor violations result in nothing more than an informal reprimand. But those big fleets have to go. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=326497 --áPsychotic Monk for CSM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
Leoric Firesword
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
16
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Posted - 2014.04.17 13:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm good with this suggestion |
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult
754
|
Posted - 2014.04.17 15:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
I don't believe there are any rules about ganking people who aren't new in starter systems so I don't think any change needs to be made.
If you don't like exhumers and orcas in those systems you can either wardec their corp or suicide gank them. There's no point in banning people from doing things when there isn't really a need to.
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Dr Cedric
Independent Miners Corporation Care Factor
44
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Posted - 2014.04.17 15:59:00 -
[15] - Quote
Here's an out of the box idea on this, specifically in reponse to Rookies quitting because the bots have taken over.
I can mine like 10M units of veldspar on my own in Null-Sec in however long that takes. If my maths are correct, thats A FREAKING TON OF VELDSPAR.
I say take advantage (older/veteran players) of your own ability to mine for yourself, and give the newbies their Ore. Truck it in from wherever. I could single handedly supply the Veldspar needs of like 10000 newbies for this particular mission. This is a GREAT opportunity for corps/alliances to make an impact in a GOOD way on the New Player Experience. Its a great time for recruiters to explain some mechanics, and instead of this being a negative situation for the new player, it turns into a Great PR opportunity for corps/alliances and the best educational opportunity for new players.
On a certain level, I excited that the belts are mined out in an hour, that means for 22 hours of the day, I can brainwa...er..."educate" the new players!!!
Ced Cedric
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Ix Method
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
128
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Posted - 2014.04.17 17:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
TBH i'd go further, do the Rookie Help thing and simply ban characters over 30 days from these systems. Sounds a little drastic but the markets don't really need seeding, there's thousands of other systems to mine/rat in and 99% of older players there contribute nothing to the new player experience.
To do anything worthwhile at all these players are going to have to leave so it's not exactly sheltering them. Travelling at the speed of love. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1106
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Posted - 2014.04.17 17:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:This would be a very sad day if this happens. I remember when I was weeks old and just into my first hauling bestower teaming up with another new player (Russian) who just got into his first barge, a retriever. We mined every night for a lot of weeks and made what I considered a lot of ISK at the time. I hauled, he mined and we split the yield in equal shares. This was my first good experience in EVE. I would hate to deny other new players this fledgling mining experience just because someone didn't like that barges were able to get into a "rookie system".
-1 on the idea. You had a barge and you were unable to move out of your rookie system?
@OP: howabout disallow strip miner activation instead of disallowing mining barges. Maybe people want to show off their cool bigships to make the newbies swoon. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Vic Jefferson
Life. Universe. Everything. Clockwork Pineapple
2
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Posted - 2014.04.17 18:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
This idea is well reasoned and insightful. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2176
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Posted - 2014.04.17 19:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
So Rookie systems are there primarily just for new players to learn the game, primarily through the tutorials etc right?
So why not just get rid of the ore. Make the missions requring mining use some "mission ore", which already exists for other missions anyhow. If a rookie wants to mine for isk they can easily fly one system over and do so.
Seems like an easier fix that all these wonky ship/module restrictions. |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2641
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 00:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:So Rookie systems are there primarily just for new players to learn the game, primarily through the tutorials etc right?
So why not just get rid of the ore. Make the missions requring mining use some "mission ore", which already exists for other missions anyhow. If a rookie wants to mine for isk they can easily fly one system over and do so.
Seems like an easier fix that all these wonky ship/module restrictions.
I think tutorials should teach the mechanics of public asteroid belts as they are part of the game.
IIRC there is also a deadspace mining tutorial. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=326497 --áPsychotic Monk for CSM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2177
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Posted - 2014.04.18 01:29:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:So Rookie systems are there primarily just for new players to learn the game, primarily through the tutorials etc right?
So why not just get rid of the ore. Make the missions requring mining use some "mission ore", which already exists for other missions anyhow. If a rookie wants to mine for isk they can easily fly one system over and do so.
Seems like an easier fix that all these wonky ship/module restrictions. I think tutorials should teach the mechanics of public asteroid belts as they are part of the game. IIRC there is also a deadspace mining tutorial.
Yes but the public belts don't have to be profitable.
Either way making the rookie systems a tutorial system (not something you live and make isk in) seems to make more sense than arbitrarily trying to restrict certain ship access. |
Cekle Skyscales
X-Prot Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
35
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Posted - 2014.04.18 02:43:00 -
[22] - Quote
Remove the anti-PVP restrictions from rookie systems, have concord ships in every asteroid belt in 1.0-0.9 systems. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
697
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 11:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
I fully support this, if you mean by rookie systems the career agent systems.
It doesn't make sense, that very new players have to compete for the tiny roids in their ventures or rookie frigates (when they lost their first venture) against older players in exhumer or barges or players that have trained long enough to get into their first barge.
Once you are able to field a barge, your good to go out into the surrounding highsec systems anyway.
Yes, there is a lot of ore in career agent missions. But many players just grind away the little belts available in those systems. Remove insurance. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
697
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 11:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:This would be a very sad day if this happens. I remember when I was weeks old and just into my first hauling bestower teaming up with another new player (Russian) who just got into his first barge, a retriever. We mined every night for a lot of weeks and made what I considered a lot of ISK at the time. I hauled, he mined and we split the yield in equal shares. This was my first good experience in EVE. I would hate to deny other new players this fledgling mining experience just because someone didn't like that barges were able to get into a "rookie system".
-1 on the idea. You don't have to. Leave the career agent system. It's just one jump. Remove insurance. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
713
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Posted - 2014.04.18 11:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
If it really is a serious problem and not a solution in search of a problem then the original post makes sense. Otherwise, just messing with things, well just because.
So if there is a general problem, by all means put something in place, have concorde gank large fleets trying it, if it really is a big issue. Good training exercise for noobs to be aware of gank mechanics and how tanking can help, build it into the lesson plan when it happens.
If it is a minor edge case, lots of effort for little gain, ignore and move on.
Next. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
697
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 11:11:00 -
[26] - Quote
Asia Leigh wrote:eh...
The rules say your not allowed to 'grief' rookies in the rookie systems. We can assume that people in orca's and exhumers are not rookies. My question then becomes, Are we allowed to suicide gank people in rookie systems that clearly aren't rookies? I've never seen anything concrete on this.
I would probably give the T1 mining barges a pass as they can be trained for under a week with the booster, but that's an edge case at best. Yes you are.
Problem is, that there are edge cases ofc. Also a rookie might get involved. Or an older player might trick you into doing something using an alt on a new account. Not every GM might look at it the same, so their recommendation is, "don't do anything in rookie systems, that might get you into trouble".
Also, this is a waste of precious GM resources really. Remove insurance. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1258
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 11:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
Dreadchain wrote:
I don't think spawning infinite ore in highsec is exactly a good idea.
Doesn't have to be infinite. If it's on a timed respawn it's going to be a controllable amount of spawns. Doesn't need to be a timer as long as ice spawns. And it solves vastly greater issues than rookies having trouble getting spawns. Without isolating them from the competitive nature of EVE |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
697
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 11:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:@OP: howabout disallow strip miner activation instead of disallowing mining barges. Maybe people want to show off their cool bigships to make the newbies swoon. I'd be fine with that too. Remove insurance. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
115
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 14:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
While I agree that mining fleets in rookie systems are ridiculously lame, I don't think they should be restricted by game mechanics (otoh, deccing or ganking them is a good idea obviously!).
Most of us are often saying tutorials should show as much as possible the 'real' face of EVE: making it too easy for rookies is a bad idea imo.
IIRC there's already a tutorial mission that spawns a couple of asteroids to mine, the mission(s) that do NOT spawn asteroids are 'working as intended' if they're forcing rookies to hunt around a bit - or figure out that they can just buy the ore/minerals.
Just look at the newbie that made that post in New Citizens Q&A (that I assume inspired this post in F&I): he encountered a problem, came to the forums, met a bunch of helpful people, learned a lot more than what a system without lame multiboxers would've taught him!
TL;DR: the rookie system miners are lame and should be ganked, but don't make it too easy for the rookies. We wanna forge them into hardened EVE citizens! |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
570
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 04:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
Asia Leigh wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:This would be a very sad day if this happens. I remember when I was weeks old and just into my first hauling bestower teaming up with another new player (Russian) who just got into his first barge, a retriever. We mined every night for a lot of weeks and made what I considered a lot of ISK at the time. I hauled, he mined and we split the yield in equal shares. This was my first good experience in EVE. I would hate to deny other new players this fledgling mining experience just because someone didn't like that barges were able to get into a "rookie system".
-1 on the idea. I think he is talking about the 20 man fleets that goes in with hulks and orca's that clearly aren't new players as they require months to train for. While that may be what he is "talking about" what he outlines in his post will effect all players not just "vets".. banning mining barges...really? That's going to hit noobs harder than anyone else. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
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