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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
350
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:03:00 -
[61] - Quote
I understand the concept of attainability. CCP wants the isk price of PLEX to be low enough for people to want to purchase it to continue their game play so the PLEX purchasers will want to buy it since people in game are willing to spend the ISK to make the purchase worth the PLEX purchasers investment.
But at the same time, it works both ways. The isk price needs to be low enough for the PLEX purchasers to feel that they'll get a return on their investment, but they want it to be worth more to make their investment more valuable. It's all about trying to find the most people are willing to pay.
With PLEX right now being sold at 740million, that could be enticing people who don't already have PLEX in supply to buy plex, which is a benefit to CCP. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21084
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:06:00 -
[62] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:But at the same time, it works both ways. The isk price needs to be low enough for the PLEX purchasers to feel that they'll get a return on their investment, but they want it to be worth more to make their investment more valuable. It's all about trying to find the most people are willing to pay.
With PLEX right now being sold at 740million, that could be enticing people who don't already have PLEX in supply to buy plex, which is a benefit to CCP. GǪexcept that this isn't happening. Again, and I'll keep repeating this until it sinks in: they were desirable to buy at a quarter the price and if anything, lower ISK prices means people will have to buy more of them to make up for their ISK needs. The trade volume at 740M is the same as it were at 540M GÇö there is no visible GÇ£enticementGÇ¥ from the higher price.
So all that is happening is that the higher price makes people shut down their accounts, which inevitably translates into lost money for CCP. That's why they have their PLEX slush fund to push prices down and why there is pretty much nothing to suggest that they have ever pushed it upwards. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
350
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:12:00 -
[63] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:But at the same time, it works both ways. The isk price needs to be low enough for the PLEX purchasers to feel that they'll get a return on their investment, but they want it to be worth more to make their investment more valuable. It's all about trying to find the most people are willing to pay.
With PLEX right now being sold at 740million, that could be enticing people who don't already have PLEX in supply to buy plex, which is a benefit to CCP. GǪexcept that this isn't happening. Again, and I'll keep repeating this until it sinks in: they were desirable to buy at a quarter the price and if anything, lower ISK prices means people will have to buy more of them to make up for their ISK needs. The trade volume at 740M is the same as it were at 540M GÇö there is no visible GÇ£enticementGÇ¥ from the higher price. So all that is happening is that the higher price makes people shut down their accounts, which inevitably translates into lost money for CCP.
I never said they weren't desirable enough to be bought. I stated that PLEX being sold for more isk makes PLEX MORE desirable than a PLEX worth less ISK. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21084
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:15:00 -
[64] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:I never said they weren't desirable enough to be bought. I stated that PLEX being sold for more isk makes PLEX MORE desirable than a PLEX worth less ISK. GǪexcept that there is nothing to suggest that it actually happens that way, and even if it did, being GÇ£more desirableGÇ¥ is only beneficial to CCP if it at the same time both creates more sales and keeps people from closing down their accounts. By all appearances, it does neither. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
350
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:20:00 -
[65] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:I never said they weren't desirable enough to be bought. I stated that PLEX being sold for more isk makes PLEX MORE desirable than a PLEX worth less ISK. GǪexcept that there is nothing to suggest that it actually happens that way, and even if it did, being GÇ£more desirableGÇ¥ is only beneficial to CCP if it at the same time both creates more sales and keeps people from closing down their accounts. By all appearances, it does neither. So again, the only one who benefits from the higher price point is the PLEX sellers GÇö CCP certainly doesn't.
We don't have the figures of PLEX being bought from CCP, so we have no idea of knowing if they are benefiting from an increase in PLEX being bought.
Because we can't know since they won't tell us, you can't state the "the only one who benefits" because you can't know if CCP is not also benefiting.
You can't know it.
You can suppose, you can believe, think, feel, but you can't know it.
Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
4705
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:20:00 -
[66] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Tippia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:But at the same time, it works both ways. The isk price needs to be low enough for the PLEX purchasers to feel that they'll get a return on their investment, but they want it to be worth more to make their investment more valuable. It's all about trying to find the most people are willing to pay.
With PLEX right now being sold at 740million, that could be enticing people who don't already have PLEX in supply to buy plex, which is a benefit to CCP. GǪexcept that this isn't happening. Again, and I'll keep repeating this until it sinks in: they were desirable to buy at a quarter the price and if anything, lower ISK prices means people will have to buy more of them to make up for their ISK needs. The trade volume at 740M is the same as it were at 540M GÇö there is no visible GÇ£enticementGÇ¥ from the higher price. So all that is happening is that the higher price makes people shut down their accounts, which inevitably translates into lost money for CCP. I never said they weren't desirable enough to be bought. I stated that PLEX being sold for more isk makes PLEX MORE desirable than a PLEX worth less ISK.
The trade data (which is available to anyone via the market) shows that PLEX volume is not reflecting that position. Volume would need to increase under your assumption.
Your position assumes the seller of the PLEX in-game is the driving force of the PLEX Market, but it's the consumer as usual that drives the market.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
273
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:23:00 -
[67] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:when did we start forming conclusions based on zero actual factsahahahaha GD
It all started when that damn Eve Gate collapsed... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21084
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:25:00 -
[68] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:We don't have the figures of PLEX being bought from CCP, so we have no idea of knowing if they are benefiting from an increase in PLEX being bought. We have the trade volumes, which speakGǪ wellGǪ volumes.
Quote:Because we can't know since they won't tell us, you can't state the "the only one who benefits" because you can't know if CCP is not also benefiting. Since we know how many PLEX change hands and we can state with certainty that this isn't being affected by the price, we can indeed know that the higher price does not benefit CCP since it doesn't actually lead to more sales.
Your unfounded suppositions are in one case flat-out wrong, and in the other case contradicted by reality. Live with it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
350
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:31:00 -
[69] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:We don't have the figures of PLEX being bought from CCP, so we have no idea of knowing if they are benefiting from an increase in PLEX being bought. We have the trade volumes, which speakGǪ wellGǪ volumes. Quote:Because we can't know since they won't tell us, you can't state the "the only one who benefits" because you can't know if CCP is not also benefiting. Since we know how many PLEX change hands and for what price, and we can state with certainty that the volume isn't being affected by the price, we can indeed know that the higher price does not benefit CCP since it doesn't actually lead to more sales. Your unfounded suppositions are in one case flat-out wrong, and in the other case contradicted by reality. Live with it.
The trade volumes only show the amount of PLEX bought and sold within EvE, but it doesn't show the volume of PLEX bought from CCP with real money.
You can state with certainty about how many PLEX are being traded within the confines of the EvE universe, PLEX for ISK. But you cannot state with certainty about how many PLEX are being bought from CCP with money.
Unless of course CCP releases information that shows previous and current PLEX purchases from CCP with real money, then whatever "certainty" you come to regarding the volume of it is false.
Any statement about what you feel is certain or not regarding the amount of PLEX being bought from CCP for money is merely your opinion. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
350
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:33:00 -
[70] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Tippia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:But at the same time, it works both ways. The isk price needs to be low enough for the PLEX purchasers to feel that they'll get a return on their investment, but they want it to be worth more to make their investment more valuable. It's all about trying to find the most people are willing to pay.
With PLEX right now being sold at 740million, that could be enticing people who don't already have PLEX in supply to buy plex, which is a benefit to CCP. GǪexcept that this isn't happening. Again, and I'll keep repeating this until it sinks in: they were desirable to buy at a quarter the price and if anything, lower ISK prices means people will have to buy more of them to make up for their ISK needs. The trade volume at 740M is the same as it were at 540M GÇö there is no visible GÇ£enticementGÇ¥ from the higher price. So all that is happening is that the higher price makes people shut down their accounts, which inevitably translates into lost money for CCP. I never said they weren't desirable enough to be bought. I stated that PLEX being sold for more isk makes PLEX MORE desirable than a PLEX worth less ISK. The trade data (which is available to anyone via the market) shows that PLEX volume is not reflecting that position. Volume would need to increase under your assumption. Your position assumes the seller of the PLEX in-game is the driving force of the PLEX Market, but it's the consumer as usual that drives the market.
Yea, the consumer generates the demand, but the PLEX purchasers generates the supply, and CCP provides the opportunity.
Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21085
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:36:00 -
[71] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:The trade volumes only show the amount of PLEX bought and sold within EvE GǪwhich is where the ISK price matters. Since we can trivially correlate price with volume, we see that price does not affect volume. That's all there is to it. In addition, CCP is actively trying to keep the price down since this ensures that they don't lose accounts.
So no, CCP very obviously does not benefit from higher prices. Instead, they benefit from lower prices. Exactly why they do so is hardly rocket surgery.
For your idea to hold true, CCP would have to act against their own interests and people would have to buy things they can't actually make use of. If you want to defend your position, explain those two rather than insisting on being wrong about what we do and do not know.
Quote:Yea, the consumer generates the demand So you agree, then, that your position is rather nonsensical. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
4706
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:40:00 -
[72] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote: You can state with certainty about how many PLEX are being traded within the confines of the EvE universe, PLEX for ISK. But you cannot state with certainty about how many PLEX are being bought from CCP with money.
All PLEX are purchased from CCP with real money, and it's safe to assume that the total number being bought for cash is greater than or equal to the number being traded.
Any players "holding" PLEX benefit when they either redeem or sell them, the former has no bearing on your position. If players holding PLEX sell them, the isk value will decrease as volume increases.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
351
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:40:00 -
[73] - Quote
No, it proves that it's possible. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1708
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:44:00 -
[74] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:No, it proves that it's possible.
Well, a lot of things are possible. But it isn't likely because it would be a bad idea for CCP to interfere in the way you describe. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Prt Scr
569th Freelancers Eternal Evocations
28
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:45:00 -
[75] - Quote
The reason plex have gone up in price is cause silly buggers will pay the higher price |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
351
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:45:00 -
[76] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Divine Entervention wrote: You can state with certainty about how many PLEX are being traded within the confines of the EvE universe, PLEX for ISK. But you cannot state with certainty about how many PLEX are being bought from CCP with money.
All PLEX are purchased from CCP with real money, and it's safe to assume that the total number being bought for cash is greater than or equal to the number being traded. Any players "holding" PLEX benefit when they either redeem or sell them, the former has no bearing on your position. If players holding PLEX sell them, the isk value will decrease as volume increases.
Except an increased value of PLEX determined through ISK price makes people considering to invest in PLEX for the purpose of selling it more desirable to engage, which will result in a temporary increase in supply, resulting in a temporary increase in profit by CCP for the additional PLEX being bought. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1708
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:46:00 -
[77] - Quote
Prt Scr wrote:The reason plex have gone up in price is cause silly buggers will pay the higher price
It really is this simple. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21085
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:49:00 -
[78] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:Except an increased value of PLEX determined through ISK price makes people considering to invest in PLEX for the purpose of selling it more desirable to engage, GǪexcept that this isn't happening. If it did, we'd either see higher volumes, or we'd have to explain why people buy stuff they can't use. Making stuff GǣconsiderGǥ something is of absolutely no use to anyone.
Quote:which will result in a temporary increase in supply, resulting in a temporary increase in profit by CCP for the additional PLEX being bought. GǪneither of which seems to be happening, and which would directly clash with CCP's attempts at bringing the prices down. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
4709
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:50:00 -
[79] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:No, it proves that it's possible.
O.K. I see..
Is CCP CAPABLE of what you are suggesting? Sure, I would not put anything past them.
Are they actually DOING it? The evidence says no, and it would be very bad for them when it was discovered, this is spreadsheets online after all..
/wonders if the quickie-mart on the corner sells jiffy-pop.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
351
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:51:00 -
[80] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Except an increased value of PLEX determined through ISK price makes people considering to invest in PLEX for the purpose of selling it more desirable to engage, GǪexcept that this isn't happening. If it did, we'd either see higher volumes, or we'd have to explain why people buy stuff they can't use. Making stuff GǣconsiderGǥ something is of absolutely no use to anyone. Quote:which will result in a temporary increase in supply, resulting in a temporary increase in profit by CCP for the additional PLEX being bought. GǪneither of which seems to be happening, and which would directly clash with CCP's attempts at bringing the prices down.
You don't know if it's happening or not. There is no metric used to show the total amount of PLEX being bought by players from players for isk, and there's no metric showing the amount of PLEX bought from CCP by players for money.
You assuming to know is merely your belief of what you feel is happening, your opinion. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21085
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:55:00 -
[81] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:You don't know if it's happening or not. How do you explain people buying stuff they can't use?
Quote:There is no metric used to show the total amount of PLEX being bought by players from players for isk Yes there is. It can't be any higher than the number of PLEXes traded on the market, especially not if the price keeps going up.
Quote:You assuming to know No. We know all we need to know. We know for a fact that higher prices do not lead to more PLEX being traded. We know for a fact that CCP is trying to keep prices down. If you want to fit your hypothesis with these facts, you will have to come up with some really good explanations for the deeply irrational behaviour this would mean on both the players' and CCP's part. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
351
|
Posted - 2014.04.18 23:56:00 -
[82] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:No, it proves that it's possible. O.K. I see.. Is CCP CAPABLE of what you are suggesting? Sure, I would not put anything past them. Are they actually DOING it? The evidence says no, and it would be very bad for them when it was discovered, this is spreadsheets online after all.. /wonders if the quickie-mart on the corner sells jiffy-pop.
Yea totally.
I use jolly time. I've got this bad ass little Pop Pup from the great north western pop corn factory. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
351
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:02:00 -
[83] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:You don't know if it's happening or not. How do you explain people buying stuff they can't use? Quote:You assuming to know No. We know all we need to know. We know for a fact that higher prices do not lead to more PLEX being traded. We know for a fact that CCP is trying to keep prices down. If you want to fit your hypothesis with these facts, you will have to come up with some really good explanations for the deeply irrational behaviour this would mean on both the players' and CCP's part.
You believe you know all you need to know. You can't know that more or less total plex is being traded, you only assume you do with the information provided to you, but there is information that none of us knows. Because of what we can't know, it's impossible to say one way or the other as a certainty.
As for CCP wanting to keep prices down, well personally I've never seen a Dev statement confirming one way or the other. Does one exist? Potentially. Just because I haven't seen the statement doesn't mean I'm going to claim it doesn't exist. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21086
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:08:00 -
[84] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:You can't know that more or less total plex is being traded Basic economics. Learn it, love it. If you want to offer a different explanation, will have to explain why people are buying stuff they can't use. And while you're at it, explain why CCP would act against its own interests.
Quote:As for CCP wanting to keep prices down, well personally I've never seen a Dev statement confirming one way or the other. Does one exist? Watch almost any of the fanfest security or economics presentations for the last couple of years. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
351
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:09:00 -
[85] - Quote
So it's proven you don't know what you can't know, but you believe strongly.
OK cool, it's nice to see you finally acknowledge that you can't know the unknowable. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1711
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:10:00 -
[86] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:
You believe you know all you need to know. You can't know that more or less total plex is being traded, you only assume you do with the information provided to you, but there is information that none of us knows. Because of what we can't know, it's impossible to say one way or the other as a certainty.
As for CCP wanting to keep prices down, well personally I've never seen a Dev statement confirming one way or the other. Does one exist? Potentially. Just because I haven't seen the statement doesn't mean I'm going to claim it doesn't exist.
The problem with this reasoning is that, if we assume your premise, we can't know anything about anything and therefore we cannot draw any conclusions. It's a futile mental exercise. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5087
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:12:00 -
[87] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:So it's proven you don't know what you can't know, but you believe strongly.
OK cool, it's nice to see you finally acknowledge that you can't know the unknowable.
Price history charts are available in the game client, dumbass.
Do you even economics? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
|
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
351
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:12:00 -
[88] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:
You believe you know all you need to know. You can't know that more or less total plex is being traded, you only assume you do with the information provided to you, but there is information that none of us knows. Because of what we can't know, it's impossible to say one way or the other as a certainty.
As for CCP wanting to keep prices down, well personally I've never seen a Dev statement confirming one way or the other. Does one exist? Potentially. Just because I haven't seen the statement doesn't mean I'm going to claim it doesn't exist.
The problem with this reasoning is that, if we assume your premise, we can't know anything about anything and therefore we cannot draw any conclusions. It's a futile mental exercise.
That is a perfectly valid opinion you're allowed to have. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
masternerdguy
Dominion Task Force
1711
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:14:00 -
[89] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:
You believe you know all you need to know. You can't know that more or less total plex is being traded, you only assume you do with the information provided to you, but there is information that none of us knows. Because of what we can't know, it's impossible to say one way or the other as a certainty.
As for CCP wanting to keep prices down, well personally I've never seen a Dev statement confirming one way or the other. Does one exist? Potentially. Just because I haven't seen the statement doesn't mean I'm going to claim it doesn't exist.
The problem with this reasoning is that, if we assume your premise, we can't know anything about anything and therefore we cannot draw any conclusions. It's a futile mental exercise. That is a perfectly valid opinion you're allowed to have.
It's an informed opinion, however. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Divine Entervention
Abyss Cooperative 3
351
|
Posted - 2014.04.19 00:14:00 -
[90] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:So it's proven you don't know what you can't know, but you believe strongly.
OK cool, it's nice to see you finally acknowledge that you can't know the unknowable. Price history charts are available in the game client, dumbass. Do you even economics?
Did you know that the Price History charts only show what happens through the EvE market? It does not take contracts into consideration. It does not take player to player trades into consideration.
Because it's not all encompassing, it's impossible to know.
Nice try though. I'd have thought with you playing EvE for so many years that you'd have learned the price history chart doesn't cover those things. Proof of lying in thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4349703#post4349703 |
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