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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Kontrapshun
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 14:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
I know this will bring on the heat....so let's hear why it's a bad idea..
If a player loiters say (90 secs at a gate, within 100k of the gate) they are flagged as a camper and the gate guns start firing. Player can not re-enter gate area for a cool off timer of 15 minutes without being fired upon. Something like this, but obviously balanced within workable means. No bubbles on gates within 100k
This is why I think it's a good idea.
1) Will require that PVP players actually learn how to play PVP and hunt their targets, rather than just stupid easy gate kills that have zero value and effectively lock solo game play in these areas for the most part. (Not saying some brave soul doesn't venture out with an alt, etc.) 2) Will bring tons of HS players in these areas, if they know they at least have a chance of a fair fight and more difficult game activities.
As is, gate camps are just a great example of poor game mechanics and bad sportsmanship. |
leavemymomalone idiot
State War Academy Caldari State
28
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 14:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
as far as bad ideas go this is right up there. gate camps are an essential part of the game. |
Kontrapshun
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 14:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
leavemymomalone idiot wrote:as far as bad ideas go this is right up there. gate camps are an essential part of the game.
I know you have more thoughts on why it's bad than just that statement.....let's hear it
Why is it essential and what do you think would happen if my idea was implemented. |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
407
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 14:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
This game is about effortless and easy PVP, you cannot just remove the most important source for that need! |
Last Wolf
Umbra Wing
146
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 14:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
And how do you propose to catch players warping from gate to gate?
How about if you place a bubble in between gates it will pull people out of warp. Vacuums suck. -á- -áDrone Overhaul Proposal |
elitatwo
Congregatio
213
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Posted - 2014.04.21 14:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
There is a reason why 'solo' pvp is the hardest difficulty level in EVE you can play.
A gatecamp would be more of an 'easy' level of difficulty level of gameplay. signature |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
973
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 14:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
So last night i ran a https://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/index.php/Dread_Guristas_Fleet_Staging_Post. The last stage was in the system next to xxdeath form up system (RSLI). These people are very hostile as we send pvp fleets after them every day. I ran the site with no sign of combat scanners although neuts were in system. Then i went home to FDZ with 450 mill of loot and at one point jumped into a 15 man Razor gate camp. My tengu and loot made it safely home.
When i go shopping in high sec i take a ceptor with fast align mods. When i go scanning i take a buzzard. If my indie alt wants to goto low sec i check the map 1st and then collect my PI. If i need to move other ships i wait for a fleet, bribe a carrier /JF pilot or get someone to scout or i look for wormholes.
When i want to PVP i either select targets i think i can kill (i am not often correct) or join a fleet and go and fight others. Gate camps are trivial to avoid and stopping people fighting at natural choke points virtually ends fighting as this is where fleets meet. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Kontrapshun
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 15:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:So last night i ran a https://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/index.php/Dread_Guristas_Fleet_Staging_Post.The last stage was in the system next to xxdeath form up system (RSLI). These people are very hostile as we send pvp fleets after them every day. I ran the site with no sign of combat scanners although neuts were in system. Then i went home to FDZ with 450 mill of loot and at one point jumped into a 15 man Razor gate camp. My tengu and loot made it safely home. When i go shopping in high sec i take a ceptor with fast align mods. When i go scanning i take a buzzard. If my indie alt wants to goto low sec i check the map 1st and then collect my PI. If i need to move other ships i wait for a fleet, bribe a carrier /JF pilot or get someone to scout or i look for wormholes. When i want to PVP i either select targets i think i can kill (i am not often correct) or join a fleet and go and fight others. Gate camps are trivial to avoid and stopping people fighting at natural choke points virtually ends fighting as this is where fleets meet.
That is a great post and it sounds like you are skilled at this game.
I am of the solo casual player base (you may be as well, don't know) and I've been killed about 10 times by players over the last 3 years I've played off and on.
Of those loses.
ONE was a real fight where a Rifter pilot hunted my Kestrel and it was a very enjoyable experience for both players and we chatted afterward... Nice guy!
The other 9 kills where from gate camps with players that were obviously interested only in easy kills, as they were in packs of at least 5 or more players. Discourages game activity in these areas.
So why are Gate Camps GOOD for this game, and what do you think would happen if they were effectively removed. How could these PVP players who now camp get along? Would they quit or just start hunting and allow for a better game? |
Kontrapshun
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 15:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Last Wolf wrote:And how do you propose to catch players warping from gate to gate?
How about if you place a bubble in between gates it will pull people out of warp.
You can try and chase them, Cat and Mouse is very fun.
The point really is, you would have so many more targets to hunt, really!
I know that I would feel much more inclined to go into these areas knowing I had a chance to at least have a little fun before I died, if I did. |
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
60
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 15:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gate camps are as old as EVE. If I remember my ancient history, the first major gate camp in EVE was cleared by the devs (under the guise of the Jove), and the players were pretty much told - "From now on, it's up to you to deal with it, this was a one time deal".
Honestly, if you do your research, avoiding them isn't that difficult. Avoid the busy entrances, go in through the backwaters, check your map stats, and most of the time you'll be fine. (Most of the time...) |
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2183
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 15:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
There are many fundamental flaws in your thinking.
First off, most gate camps already are designed to be able to tank the gate guns. So having the guns aggress in most cases would not stop them. Increasing the gate guns DPS would hurt legitimate fights. Many good fights happen on gates and agression mechanics are very often used in these fights (especially for solo PVP'rs BTW). So yes IMO changing this would do more harm than good.
Bubbles are a part of 0.0, I don't see a compelling reason to change that. |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
330
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 15:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Could you articulate what is wrong with Null aside from the fact that you have trouble traveling once you are there because of gate camps?
Are rabid gangs of fast aligning interceptors not already proof that the problem with null is not bubbles?
You have laid out a solution; but I don't see your problem statement. You are going to 'bring the heat' because you have a poorly articulated idea in which you try to fix nullsec by getting rid of a mechanic that does not benefit your play style.
How about we fix highsec by stopping station games? |
DaReaper
Net 7 The Last Brigade
390
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 16:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
One small key point you are missing. Null has no gate guns. So flagging someone in null to have the non existent gate guns shoot them, makes this idea horrible alone.
Second, low sec gate guns already shoot campers, they just set to tank the guns.
You will never eliminate gate camps as its human nature to block and camp choke points. |
Kontrapshun
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 16:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:One small key point you are missing. Null has no gate guns. So flagging someone in null to have the non existent gate guns shoot them, makes this idea horrible alone.
Second, low sec gate guns already shoot campers, they just set to tank the guns.
You will never eliminate gate camps as its human nature to block and camp choke points.
Sure, it would require the game to change.
Camps = Weak game mechanics and Bullying.
Sorry, just the facts.
I understand that CCP promotes bullying, but it doesn't make it right. Removing this obvious method would be better for the game.
No one has said how this would change the game?
I think it would add value to explorers, am I wrong? |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2183
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 16:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kontrapshun wrote: Sure, it would require the game to change.
Camps = Weak game mechanics and Bullying.
Sorry, just the facts.
Sorry just your opinion.
Kontrapshun wrote:I understand that CCP promotes bullying, but it doesn't make it right. Removing this obvious method would be better for the game.
It really wouldn't
Kontrapshun wrote:No one has said how this would change the game?
Did you even read my post? Go watch any number of solo PVP videos. You will find numerous examples of solo PVPr's taking on gatecamps and winning. And they are using the gate aggression mechanics to great effect to do so. Mechanics that would be fundamentally broken by your suggestions.
Kontrapshun wrote:I think it would add value to explorers, am I wrong?
A properly prepared explorer will typically make it through, or learn how to avoid, most gatecamps.
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Kontrapshun
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 17:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Did you even read my post? Go watch any number of solo PVP videos. You will find numerous examples of solo PVPr's taking on gatecamps and winning. And they are using the gate aggression mechanics to great effect to do so. Mechanics that would be fundamentally broken by your suggestions.
A properly prepared explorer will typically make it through, or learn how to avoid, most gatecamps.
Yes, I read your post.
I've seen some great players take on overwhelming odds and prevailed..... and?
Still don't get the point you were making, other than PVP players would have to rethink a better strategy to engage other pilots besides camp gates for the win.
Sorry, but the game is either "very boring" or "very one sided". I only play occasionally now while watching movie or something as a distraction. I can't see how others enjoy playing this game as is, with all the bottlenecks CCP allows players to create. So many entrenched players it's ridiculous. The devs seem to be scared to change the game in any real way to make it more interesting. I suppose I hang on in hopes they will do something to challenge the system. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5270
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 17:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gates are choke-points. Militarily it makes sense to sit at a choke-point and wipe out anything that comes by.
And in 5 years of playing EVE, I have rarely had a fight (in any serious fashion) anywhere that wasn't a gate or FW complex... simply because the best/only place to force the engagement was the stargate. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Kontrapshun
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 17:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Gates are choke-points. Militarily it makes sense to sit at a choke-point and wipe out anything that comes by. And in 5 years of playing EVE, I have rarely had a fight (in any serious fashion) anywhere that wasn't a gate or FW complex... simply because the best/only place to FORCE the engagement was the stargate.
I understand your point for sure. It's an easy way to hub players and quickly find targets.
however,
Camps as mentioned above, rarely catch skilled players and prey on the new or unskilled.
So how is this rewarding to Campers, I just don't get it... how players think they're amazing for jumping one new dude coming through a gate and relish in the PIRATE brand...
Such a less-than play mechanic, with no thought and minimal skill or risk involved.
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2183
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 17:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kontrapshun wrote:Yes, I read your post.
I've seen some great players take on overwhelming odds and prevailed..... and?
Still don't get the point you were making, other than PVP players would have to rethink a better strategy to engage other pilots besides camp gates for the win.
Then you haven't watched most of these videos very carefully. In many cases they use superior tactics and prevailed. There is a reason many fights occur on gates, or on stations etc. The aggression mechanics allow the fight to be possible.
If you think trying to solo PVP on a gate is tough. it is near impossible in regular space. Gates can give a smaller force options to be able to disengage, split forces etc. The same fight in say a belt would be a blog tackling smaller force slaughterhouse.
Those gates and camps help to provide the content.
FWIW, I have spent significant non-pvp time in my 3 years of this game running through lowsec. Dodging camps etc. I have lost one ship and pod to a camp. Which was when i learned rancer is a smartbombing, bad to fly a shuttle through system. Other than that I have not had difficulty avoiding camps when I wanted to.
Kontrapshun wrote:Sorry, but the game is either "very boring" or "very one sided". I only play occasionally now while watching movie or something as a distraction. I can't see how others enjoy playing this game as is, with all the bottlenecks CCP allows players to create. So many entrenched players it's ridiculous. The devs seem to be scared to change the game in any real way to make it more interesting. I suppose I hang on in hopes they will do something to challenge the system.
Unfortunately EVE simply may not be the game for you. In EVE the players are the content. It isn't for everyone.
To use the sandbox analogy, what really is a sandbox. It is a pile of sand. Some kids will enter a sandbox and see an empty canvas and create their world. building sand castles and such. Some kids will say, "where are the toys? What am I supposed to do here? Why won't anyone tell me what to do with this sand?". And then some kids will just go running through knocking down everything they see.
That is the world of EVE. It is exactly what I DON't find boring.
to summarize.
1. Gate camps are an excellent content builder in EVE. Some people may not like the content but it is content. It also drives fights by giving opposing groups a place to clash. (ie gatecamps are more than just traps for the unsuspecting).
2. None of your recommendations so far do anything to change this. For one it won't stop camps and second it doesn't help make the game any "better"
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Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
60
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 17:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kontrapshun wrote:ShahFluffers wrote:Gates are choke-points. Militarily it makes sense to sit at a choke-point and wipe out anything that comes by. And in 5 years of playing EVE, I have rarely had a fight (in any serious fashion) anywhere that wasn't a gate or FW complex... simply because the best/only place to FORCE the engagement was the stargate. I understand your point for sure. It's an easy way to hub players and quickly find targets. however, Camps as mentioned above, rarely catch skilled players and prey on the new or unskilled. So how is this rewarding to Campers, I just don't get it... how players think they're amazing for jumping one new dude coming through a gate and relish in the PIRATE brand... Such a less-than play mechanic, with no thought and minimal skill or risk involved, yet prevents so many from exploring new content and real PVP experiences.
Null gate camps normally offer some defense to the people behind it. They have a good reason to camp.
Low-sec, there are all sorts of reasons to camp. Sometimes they're locking down a system where they are doing something, sometimes, they're just camping.
Really, there's only a few places you can fight... Gate, Station, Belt, Mission pocket/site (), customs office. Of those, gates are the best (only) chokepoint. |
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Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2462
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 17:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
Hey guys, in a game with a totally skewed predator prey mechanics set (the prey has all the advantages) lets go ahead an kill the final place outside of timer generated fleet fights that the predator has a chance of getting a fight.
No.
Lets not. Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Kontrapshun
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 17:48:00 -
[22] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote: That is the world of EVE. It is exactly what I DON't find boring.
to summarize.
1. Gate camps are an excellent content builder in EVE. Some people may not like the content but it is content. It also drives fights by giving opposing groups a place to clash. (ie gatecamps are more than just traps for the unsuspecting).
2. None of your recommendations so far do anything to change this. For one it won't stop camps and second it doesn't help make the game any "better"
You comments are well said, and I suppose you're right. If the game was for my play style, i would play more for sure. My play style is one that promotes making friends, a fair fight and allows for solo play, which is not possible 99% of the time in this game.
Although the sandbox still has rules and they are created for the enjoyment of all who participate in the playground. Many say EVE is THIS or EVE is THAT, just as you have. Yet, rules are changed as the playing field changes as well.
How long do you want to play the same game? And how can you find this enjoyable and rewarding to spend your time in, if it's just a matter of being the bigger gang? |
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
60
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 17:57:00 -
[23] - Quote
This happens to be the third time in two days that I've seen something regarding people wanting fair fights... Look in the Jita Soapbox form under a post called 1 v 1, as I'm not in the mood to retype what I added to that thread... It references this issue, and a sandbox solution to it.
P.S. It's not something I'm suggesting, I'm just trying to tie 3 people asking for the same thing together.
Edit: Should be Jita's Speaker's Corner Form, not soapbox. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2183
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 18:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kontrapshun wrote: You comments are well said, and I suppose you're right. If the game was for my play style, i would play more for sure. My play style is one that promotes making friends, a fair fight and allows for solo play, which is not possible 99% of the time in this game.
I guess this is where we may differ on philosophy. I'm a nice guy IRL and in game. Some tell me I'm not cutthroat enough for EVE. I find it a challenge to hold to my values in a sea of sharks. I find the friendships I have made in EVE are far more real than in any other game.
To put it another way, how can you truly trust a friend in game to not stab you in the back if the game mechanics don't allow them to? Yes the nature of EVE makes it harder to build true trusting friendships. But those friendships I've made are far stronger than in any other game I've played.
Solo play is very possible. it is the most challenging and difficult way to play EVE.
"Fair fight"? How is that even defined? In most games a "fair fight" means staged fight. Boring. Honestly this video i think is the best I've seen to illustrate. When watching it people seem to have 2 reactions. Either YEA that's what I love about EVE. I died and died, but then I got that kill and it was all worth it. Others say this is what I find so frustrating about EVE. The people who truly love this game are generally the former.
Kontrapshun wrote:Although the sandbox still has rules and they are created for the enjoyment of all who participate in the playground. Many say EVE is THIS or EVE is THAT, just as you have. Yet, rules are changed as the playing field changes as well.
This statement is flat out disingenuous. It is clear the adage that you cannot please all the people all of the time. There are no rules you could ever impose on ANY game, EVE included what would yield "enjoyment of all". EVE's rules are there for the enjoyment of as many as possible who enjoy its style of play. it isn't for everyone.
Kontrapshun wrote:How long do you want to play the same game? And how can you find this enjoyable and rewarding to spend your time in, if it's just a matter of being the bigger gang?
To me the game is different everyday. And I am NEVER the bigger gang. In fact I can go days looking for anything to fight. But when I do it is usually satisfying and worth it.
That being said I have spent most of my EVE time in WH space. It is the playstyle I enjoy most. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy Disband.
1132
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 18:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kontrapshun wrote:Camps = ...Bullying.
'Fess up - are you a terrible troll, or are you just completely clueless about the game to the point where you shouldn't be posting suggestions? No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
17107
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 18:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
I have to ask why you think playing a game for 5 months, qualifies you to say a style that's been a part of the game for 10 years needs nerfing?
Also, if you were stating facts, then you wouldn't be trying to illicit emotional responses with ridiculous claims of bullying.
This game is PvP centric and as much of a sandbox as one could be without anarchy. This means that although you can do whatever you wish within it's boundaries, others can do things that may interfere with your goals. Those of us that accept the game for what it is, know that means we should take on the responsibility ourselves to stop them. Meaning we interfere with theirs.
As has already been pointed out, gates are choke points, but ones that are not set in stone. Meaning they can be either bypassed, or tools provided that allow us to pass through them. What you are asking for is a nerf to PvP and safer passage to those that do not wish to use the current tools at their disposal.
This is bad, your idea is bad and you should feel bad.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Kontrapshun
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 18:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Kontrapshun wrote:Camps = ...Bullying. 'Fess up - are you a terrible troll, or are you just completely clueless about the game to the point where you shouldn't be posting suggestions?
I think the later for sure.... funny though, I've played part time for 3 years now and will never understand how picking on new players is fun.... sorry, never!
But, I think I'm beating a dead horse here for sure with this idea. |
Kontrapshun
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 18:23:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mag's wrote:
This is bad, your idea is bad and you should feel bad.
I love this comment and it should be a sticky somehow, as it reflects my point about the nature of this game and PVP in it in general.
"you have me cracking up, really!"
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admiral root
Red Galaxy Disband.
1135
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 18:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
Kontrapshun wrote:funny though, I've played part time for 3 years now and will never understand how picking on new players is fun.... sorry, never!
You're not new if you've been playing for three years, even part time. Shooting someone's ship (or post) isn't picking on you, it's PvP.
Quote:But, I think I'm beating a dead horse here for sure with this idea.
Yes. Browse through this sub-forum and you'll find many, many examples of other suggestions and ideas made by people who lack the necessary knowledge to be making them. They're the ones piled up at the side of the road, often in triplicate.
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3881
|
Posted - 2014.04.21 18:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
What type of nonsense are you spouting?
Gate Camping == Bullying??
and
Gate Camping == Picking on newbies???
How did you form such nonsensical opinions? It is obvious you need help., so tou should post "help me threads" rather than bad ideas about game aspects you really don't seem to understand.
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