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Capital Ships need to be more 'Capital'

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Author	Topic
Rider Zane	Posted - 2006.05.16 19:47:00 - [1] I can get an armageddon to 20,000 armor, with still a decent offensive set up for a good old fleet fight. I look at Capital ships and defensively they don't look worth all that insane isk. A geddon battleship is only about 60-70 million, and can be pimped to 20,000+ armor with mods & skills. An Avatar Titan has only 70,000 armor yet costs billions upon billions upon billions. Even if you were to try pimp out a Avatar defensively, we're looking at maybe 95,000 armor because you wont get the same increase using battleship sized mods e.g. 1600mm plates. (add 16000mm plates maybe? Theres an idea... :)) I'd take a geddon into battle even if i had the cash for a Avatar. Yeh you could doomsday everyone to smithereens in a Av, but if they dont engage with thier whole fleet, your ass is grass when the rest arrive after. Yes and I know Capital ships are not solo pwnmobiles (they obviously should be in fleets), what im concerned about is when in a fleet a 30 billion isk ship should not be worried by a handful of battleships shooting its armor. If anything, Capital ships should be the tanks of fleets, drawing fire. I'm not saying make Titans or Carriers or Dreads cheaper (hell no!), im just saying they need to 'feel' capital, not just look it. If your opponents happen to have a few dreads with them in siege mode, you can kiss goodbye to your 30 billion isk Titan in maybe 2 minutes if it has anything near 70,000 armor to start. Suggestions: Carriers Base Armor/Shields: 70,000-90,000 Base Structure: 60,000-90,000 Dreadnoughts Base Armor/Shields: 130,000-150,000 Base Structure: 80,000-110,000 Motherships (why still listed under carriers ingame?) Base Armor/Shields: 160,000-190,000 Base Structure: 120,000-130,000 Titans Base Armor/Shields: 260,000-280,000 Base Structure: 140,000-170,000 or increase resistances to give these sort of figures. Whether Capital ships need an increase in shields, armor and resistances or a suite of new defensive capital modules - something needs to be done to truely set them apart. Just some thoughts.
M00dy	Posted - 2006.05.16 19:49:00 - [2] Yeah, they're weak-sauce atm tbh.
Pottsey	Posted - 2006.05.16 19:52:00 - [3] Edited by: Pottsey on 16/05/2006 19:58:49 öEven if you were to try pimp out a Avatar defensively, we're looking at maybe 95,000 armor because you wont get the same increase using battleship sized mods e.g. 1600mm plates.ö ThatÆs because you donÆt use plates but instead Energized Regenerative Membrane II which are much better. DonÆt they gave way over 10k amour hitpoints per Regenerative Membrane? EDIT: ôAn Avatar Titan has only 70,000 armor yet costs billions upon billions upon billions. Even if you were to try pimp out a Avatar defensively, we're looking at maybe 95,000 armor because you wont get the same increase using battleship sized mods e.g. 1600mm plates.ö I get 70,000 base +25% from skills = 87,500. Now add 1 module for 15% more and you get 100,625k and thatÆs without implants. You seem to be comparing a Battleship with full modules and skills to a Titan without any skills or decent modules. Passive shield tanking guide, click here.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.05.16 19:54:00 - [4] 16metre plating is a little excessive wouldn't ya think? --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.05.16 19:55:00 - [5] I dont think the resists should be changed, but definately an hp change. Even with a Slave set, the Avatar will only get about 135k armor. ~Eximius Josari, Hegemon of the E.A.R.T.H. Federation
Elaron	Posted - 2006.05.16 19:57:00 - [6] Originally by: Rider Zane Even if you were to try pimp out a Avatar defensively, we're looking at maybe 95,000 armor because you wont get the same increase using battleship sized mods e.g. 1600mm plates. (add 16000mm plates maybe? Theres an idea... :)) Can't really comment on some of your other thoughts, as I'm not a capship pilot, but capital pilots looking to boost armour are more likely to mount this than a static plate - on a Naglfar, for example, one module would boost armour by 3437 points
Rider Zane	Posted - 2006.05.16 20:02:00 - [7] Yes it was an example pointing out that cap ship owners are limited to old battleship modules. 8%, 10%, or 12% more hitpoints as you can get with regenetarive plates does not achieve the kind of hp's im suggesting capital ships need. I'm talking about raising the base stats immensely to set this class of ships apart.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2006.05.16 20:02:00 - [8] Originally by: Hllaxiu 16metre plating is a little excessive wouldn't ya think? on ships that might be 50-100 kilometer long ? (granted, carriers are just about 4-8 km long, but the dreads are twice that and the titans dwarf those ;P ) . ----- Apologies for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Andreask14	Posted - 2006.05.16 20:05:00 - [9] Captials need armour ? Look, fleet fights are not hour long slug fests where one ship with a tank can draw fire or protect the rest of the fleet, it cant. No ship can, regardless of its armour. What do capitals do instead? They hump safe-spots, support ppl that have to warp out, and lend fighter-power via their drones. Additionally, they provide transport via jump-gates and clone bays. They are not battle-ships, but fleet-support ships, all of them, except the dreadnaughts. And guess what ? Thanks to siege mode, i figure that dreads, being the only caps actually requiered to enter the frey, have the hardest armor and most direct firepower of the caps. I dont count doomsday as a direct fire weapon because it is essentially an Area of Effect weapon, which can only be effectively used in a camp, and only once. ________________________________________________ Just a quick reminder that "Local" and "Instas" will always be what they are.
Zungen	Posted - 2006.05.16 20:14:00 - [10] then a titan and a mothership should at least have a bonus to tanking or a special rep to use as they have more hp then the ships and a 9800hp repper isnt going to repair much of its base 70k armor as compare to reppers of other ships in comparision to their hps

Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.05.16 20:18:00 - [11] Originally by: Zungen then a titan and a mothership should at least have a bonus to tanking or a special rep to use as they have more hp then the ships and a 9800hp repper isnt going to repair much of its base 70k armor as compare to reppers of other ships in comparision to their hps 1/7 is unusually HIGH. It's usually 1/8 or 1/9 on a armour tanking ship. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Locke Ateid	Posted - 2006.05.16 20:22:00 - [12] Originally by: Andreask14 Captials need armour ? Look, fleet fights are not hour long slug fests where one ship with a tank can draw fire or protect the rest of the fleet, it cant. No ship can, regardless of its armour. What do capitals do instead? They hump safe-spots, support ppl that have to warp out, and lend fighter-power via their drones. Additionally, they provide transport via jump-gates and clone bays. They are not battle-ships, but fleet-support ships, all of them, except the dreadnaughts. And guess what ? Thanks to siege mode, i figure that dreads, being the only caps actually requiered to enter the frey, have the hardest armor and most direct firepower of the caps. Agreed, Cap. ships are fine the way they are. Originally by: Andreask14 I dont count doomsday as a direct fire weapon because it is essentially an Area of Effect weapon, which can only be effectively used in a camp, and only once. Not to mention that they also wipe out all of your ships as well. To me, the Doomday modules are a last stance weapon for when you're about to lose and you're like, "Forget it! We're going lose, activate the D-day weapon and kiss our asses good-bye."
Tyrus Drake	Posted - 2006.05.16 20:49:00 - [13] Edited by: Tyrus Drake on 16/05/2006 20:49:43 Edited by: Tyrus Drake on 16/05/2006 20:49:29 For a ship that cost billions they are in no way "fine". But I think this is a problem with all ships and their lack of defence. Any ship getting focus fire going to go down and fast. The defensive cappablities in this game is not on par with the offensive cappabilities, not by a long shot. What needs to be done is a % increase of armor and shield so battles last longer or modules that give ultra high resists but suffer some drawbacks, like high energy use and unable to use weapons. "I am the Homo Superior." Mike Tyson
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.05.16 21:16:00 - [14] The way Titans are designed would imply CCP plans on people firing their weapons at something. They arent too much use at a SS. Although to be frank, the role of a Titan atm is hidden from me. Is it a massive ship designed to dish out damage, take damage, or neither? If it had a fighter ability like carriers (tbh I think it should...) it would be more useful. And ALL of them need bigger ship maintenance bays. ~Eximius Josari, Hegemon of the E.A.R.T.H. Federation
delta2zero	Posted - 2006.05.16 21:57:00 - [15] titans are for jumping whole fleets and using doomsday via a cynosual field
Kollgorholl	Posted - 2006.05.16 22:02:00 - [16] Originally by: delta2zero titans are for jumping whole fleets and using doomsday via a cynosual field according to the doomsday description though it seems the remote activation of Titan weapons can only be done at cyno's which are in the same system that the Titan is currently in. I think this limits their use. On the other using a superweapon on a fleet in a different region could be overpowered. I think Titans just came into the game pre-nerfed and imho that's a good thing. once a Titan or two has been used for combat in game they may get tweaked. Inside my mind.
Angus McLein	Posted - 2006.05.16 22:17:00 - [17] My take on the Titans offense is this. The Avatar has, what I forget, like 6 turrets? or maybe it was 8. Either way heres my problem, 1: 8 X-L turrets....thats already stupid. They should at least have more. 2: These 8 X-L turrets cant hit freakity jack squat if they wanted to. Besides other capital ships that is. Fix: Give them banks of turrets. Say they (instead of 6-8 X-L turrets) give them 30-45 BS sized turrets in banks. (I.E. 30 little buttons on your screen would be annoying so make it like in banks of 5 so on a 30 turret ship there would only be 6 buttons to press. Then the 5 turrets would fire 1 after another and restart so you'd have a ton of turrets. The point: Titans wouldnt be so Horridly underpowered against a group of BS's just because they cant hit them with there X-L turrets. And quite honestly Capital to Capital battles would just look far more amazing. instead of 6 lame beams flying thered be the 4th of July coming off a Titan popping BS's. Then capital ships would be feared by all instead of hunted by a pack of BS's.
Zooish	Posted - 2006.05.16 22:29:00 - [18] When a Carrier and a Non Siege Dreadnaugh can get Warp Scrambled by a Frigate, Jammed by a Falcon and killed by a few battleship then they are NOT fine .... They are laughable at the moment ...
Kollgorholl	Posted - 2006.05.16 22:32:00 - [19] Edited by: Kollgorholl on 16/05/2006 22:32:32 Originally by: Angus McLein My take on the Titans offense is this. The Avatar has, what I forget, like 6 turrets? or maybe it was 8. Either way heres my problem, 1: 8 X-L turrets....thats already stupid. They should at least have more. 2: These 8 X-L turrets cant hit freakity jack squat if they wanted to. Besides other capital ships that is. Fix: Give them banks of turrets. Say they (instead of 6-8 X-L turrets) give them 30-45 BS sized turrets in banks. (I.E. 30 little buttons on your screen would be annoying so make it like in banks of 5 so on a 30 turret ship there would only be 6 buttons to press. Then the 5 turrets would fire 1 after another and restart so you'd have a ton of turrets. The point: Titans wouldnt be so Horridly underpowered against a group of BS's just because they cant hit them with there X-L turrets. And quite honestly Capital to Capital battles would just look far more amazing. instead of 6 lame beams flying thered be the 4th of July coming off a Titan popping BS's. Then capital ships would be feared by all instead of hunted by a pack of BS's. I think this is a terrible idea, Titans should have backup with them, or alternatively should remain within POS shields when that is not possible. Otherwise in a fleet battle the Titan could lose all of its support fleet and then the Titan pilot sould just say: "actually i'm not in the mood to lose a fight today,everyone dock their pods for safety." Then Boom, off goes the superweapon destroying every cruiser and frig in the enemy fleet, then the turrets activate and there goes the enemy BS fleet in a few minutes. Meanwhile inside the Titan the other fleet jump back inside ships and refit them in what is essentially a mobile station undock and pwn and capital ships the other guys brought with them. Voila an unstoppable super weapon which would roam the Galaxy without fear or the need for anything as obsolete as tactics. Inside my mind.
Stamm	Posted - 2006.05.16 22:33:00 - [20] Originally by: Zooish When a Carrier and a Non Siege Dreadnaugh can get Warp Scrambled by a Frigate, Jammed by a Falcon and killed by a few battleship then they are NOT fine .... They are laughable at the moment ... If they have anything close to reasonable support then that won't happen.

Kollgorholl	Posted - 2006.05.16 22:40:00 - [21] Originally by: Stamm Originally by: Zooish When a Carrier and a Non Siege Dreadnaugh can get Warp Scrambled by a Frigate, Jammed by a Falcon and killed by a few battleship then they are NOT fine .... They are laughable at the moment ... If they have anything close to reasonable support then that won't happen. I agree. Carriers and Motherships are long range fleet support ships for ss'ing and providing a point pilots can warp to for refit and repair whilst using command mods and deploying fighters to help with the fighting Dreadnoughts are anti-pos, and should not be pwnmobiles meant for the destruction of BS groups whilst cruising around a system solo. Titans are mobile stations and provide repair, refit, clone bays and a superweapon that can be remotely used across a star system, they represent the ultimate mobile command centre and forwards logistic base for alliance level offensive operations. All of these ships should require support fleets for their actions. Inside my mind.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2006.05.16 22:42:00 - [22] Personally I think titans should be more or less weaponless but rather have pretty much all the basic abilities of a station (basically be a mobile station) albiet, much less efficient versions of them) with the advantage of being a mobile base of operations for a corp or alliance. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Stamm	Posted - 2006.05.16 22:48:00 - [23] Originally by: Wild Rho Personally I think titans should be more or less weaponless but rather have pretty much all the basic abilities of a station (basically be a mobile station) albiet, much less efficient versions of them) with the advantage of being a mobile base of operations for a corp or alliance. Well, that's kind of what motherships are supposed to be, although I don't think motherships have enough ship space. Titans are supposed to be big weapons platforms, which have a bit of carrier ability.
Angus McLein	Posted - 2006.05.16 22:58:00 - [24] Ok so my last idea was probably stupid. (Dont say anything.) BUT, Titans are SUPPOSED to be flagships. Killer ships with super uber weapons that pwn any ship. What we have now is a battleship with an oversized tank and a 1 time superweapon that doest even kill battleships all the way. That my friends...is sad.... (Note: To some of the above posters, no offense, but thats just stupid. Making the Titan weaponsless? It supposed to be a pwnmobile that kills. Not a re-fitting station that gets downed by a few well places BS's)
delta2zero	Posted - 2006.05.16 23:29:00 - [25] Quote: Carriers and Motherships are long range fleet support ships for ss'ing and providing a point pilots can warp to for refit and repair whilst using command mods and deploying fighters to help with the fighting they should still be feared and not easyily killed by 4bs and a few frigs. there suposed to be huge vessels capable of changing the balance on the battlefield by there presence alone in fleets not ships that hide at safespots never to be seen and have little impact in large scale fights. if they are suposed to stay hidden then maybe ccp should consider adding bombing drones that can attack pos ,stations and ships from a remote location somewhere in the solar system like real carriers do but make them take up alot of space so you either have fighters or bombing drones.
Kollgorholl	Posted - 2006.05.16 23:46:00 - [26] Edited by: Kollgorholl on 16/05/2006 23:51:58 Originally by: delta2zero if they are suposed to stay hidden then maybe ccp should consider adding bombing drones that can attack pos ,stations and ships from a remote location somewhere in the solar system like real carriers do but make them take up alot of space so you either have fighters or bombing drones. I really like the idea of bombing drones but there's always the fear that Carriers could make Dreads obsolete if they could attack POS's remotely. On the point of carrier impact on the battlefield i would argue that the ability to carry a small number of spare ships and provide repair and refit facilities for the rest of the fleet whilst allowing the whole fleet to benefit from Command Mod effects and the added firepower of a fighter squadron is a nice benefit. Also: can't the mothership have clones on board as well? certainly a bonus for getting pilots right back into the fight. Edit: on the point of having bomber drones to make carriers more "real" though i would point out that it makes your earlier point about a carrier running into 4 BS incorrect because in real life whilst carriers may have made BS obsolete by their ability to carry out litoral warfare at unprecedented ranges (ie: turning afghanistan (a land locked nation) into a Litoral warzone) and to sink multiple capital ships (real life cap ships not in game dreads etc), if a real life carrier were to come into range of four Battleships and a few frigates the Carrier would be annihilated. Inside my mind.
Atlanton Marcus	Posted - 2006.05.16 23:51:00 - [27] I agree that Capital ships should have more of a Capital feel to them, but I think they should be taken out quickly if they do not have a support fleet. I think that Titans should have increased armor and incredible damage, but have no defense against EWAR. This would make the ship very powerful with back-up, but very weak when not protected. In a fleet battle with a titan, the fleet with the titan would have to destroy all potential jammers so the titan can use it's weapons. The opposing fleet would have to have many jamming ships on the Titan, while Battleships take out the Titan's support. This idea might not necessarily work, but I think that having incredible power while having a exploitable weakness would make capital ship fights much more interesting. Any thoughts?
Angus McLein	Posted - 2006.05.17 00:17:00 - [28] Would anyone care to look yp TITAN in the dictionary? To quote Webster its: 'One of prodigious size, strength, or achievement'. Now when I read that the first thing that comes to my mind IS NOT a ship that needs a variety fleet of 20+ battlehsips just to keep it alive. I think of ship able to single fleets mentioned above. Not rely on them.
FFGR	Posted - 2006.05.17 00:20:00 - [29] GET YOUR THINGS TOGETHER ! Bigger should not be just "better". Capital ships are extremely focused ships at what they do. Dreads are damage and tanking platforms for destruction of stationary targets (POS, station siege) and destruction of other forms of capital ships. Carriers are small mobile capital ships that are there to boost your ships (did anyone notice that 99% CPU reduction in Gang assisting modules ? NO). Motherships are big carriers that are IMMUNE to EW and have the ability to use Cloning Vats and carry more ships than the standard Carriers (and it also has "Can fit 1 additional Warfare Link module per level" bonus) Titans are the biggest possible ship that gives BONUS TO ALL THE SHIPS IN THE GANG such as extra ARMOR, SHIELD, CAP RECHARGE and SIGNATURE RADIUS. They can also use XL guns (they do less damage than a Dread in siege mode though) and create JUMP GATES. As a form of EW is webs and scramblers (yes they count as one). Also if you are moving Capital ships alone you are doing something horribly wrong. Honestly, if you can't even READ A DESCRIPTION don't post on this matter. _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Wesley Harding	Posted - 2006.05.17 00:33:00 - [30] I suppose Titans are meant to be remotely repaired? I guess that's why the captial remote repairers haven't been released yet. Afraid of having dreadnaughts in siege mode repairing Titans and Carriers.

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