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Capital Ships need to be more 'Capital'

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Author	Topic
delta2zero	Posted - 2006.05.17 00:54:00 - [31] Edited by: delta2zero on 17/05/2006 00:55:37 Quote: Carriers are small mobile capital ships that are there to boost your ships (did anyone notice that 99% CPU reduction in Gang assisting modules ? NO). command ships do it better and cheaper. Quote: if a real life carrier were to come into range of four Battleships and a few frigates the Carrier would be annihilated. in ral life they would have been picked up on the scanner and owned, they wouldnt attack a carrier because it would mean they would be destroyed even if they owned the carrier.
FFGR	Posted - 2006.05.17 02:01:00 - [32] Originally by: delta2zero Quote: Carriers are small mobile capital ships that are there to boost your ships (did anyone notice that 99% CPU reduction in Gang assisting modules ? NO). command ships do it better and cheaper. I haven't seen a Command ship with bonus to remote repairers/shield boosters, having a corp hangar and beeing able to carry some ships. Carriers and their big brothers, the Motherships are gang assisting capital ships in every situation (provided they will seed sometime the modules needed ). They fix you, they give you ships, they give you clones ect. And command ships are t2, while Carriers are t1. BC can use gang assist modules aswell, but can they do the rest ? _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Kollgorholl	Posted - 2006.05.17 02:25:00 - [33] Originally by: delta2zero Quote: if a real life carrier were to come into range of four Battleships and a few frigates the Carrier would be annihilated. in ral life they would have been picked up on the scanner and owned, they wouldnt attack a carrier because it would mean they would be destroyed even if they owned the carrier. Hence the reason i also pointed out the fact that carriers have made BS obsolete and carriers in eve can attack from a distance (with fighters) like carriers in rl but the poster i was responding to was talking about when a carrier (in game) was fighting 4 BS and frigates up close. I was simply reffering to the fact that if he wanted it to be like real life then he couldn't effectively ask carriers to be able to handle multiple BS and tacklers at close range. reading ftw Inside my mind.
delta2zero	Posted - 2006.05.17 02:51:00 - [34] Edited by: delta2zero on 17/05/2006 02:52:22 Originally by: FFGR Originally by: delta2zero Quote: Carriers are small mobile capital ships that are there to boost your ships (did anyone notice that 99% CPU reduction in Gang assisting modules ? NO). command ships do it better and cheaper. I haven't seen a Command ship with bonus to remote repairers/shield boosters, having a corp hangar and beeing able to carry some ships. Carriers and their big brothers, the Motherships are gang assisting capital ships in every situation (provided they will seed sometime the modules needed ). They fix you, they give you ships, they give you clones ect. And command ships are t2, while Carriers are t1. BC can use gang assist modules aswell, but can they do the rest ? because we all know having someone to warp to in a fleet battle after you have taken armor and shield dmg from 100+ ships is needed right? capital ships = ships which should be ideal for large scale battles. whats the point in armor rep and shield rep bonus when the person who gets attacked is dead before they can warp? wow you can fit something stupid like 2 cruisers in a carrier its going to have a massive impact on the battle for sure and everyone needs to refit when they have there pvp setup on allready only use of the ship bay on carrier is for people in pods to grab a fast frig so they can get out of the system quick with there tails between there legs oh and BTW command ships get better gang module bonus than carriers so i would hardly call the carrier there big brother, which leaves carriers for one thing sitting at a safespot/pos with its fighters assigned to someone else.
Erotic Irony	Posted - 2006.05.17 05:42:00 - [35] Originally by: Angus McLein Meanwhile inside the Titan the other fleet jump back inside ships and refit them in what is essentially a mobile station undock and pwn and capital ships the other guys brought with them. I was under the impression the max concurrent users was fixed at one, and if its anything like the ship maintenance it has an annoying range (3-5000m) and time delay (15sec) with it making rapid response impossible. Can anyone verify if this is also the case for capital maintenance arrays?
Boonaki	Posted - 2006.05.17 06:56:00 - [36] Would allowing all capital ships to use a siege mod make them more usefull? Carriers and Motherships would not get a damage bonus from it since it doesn't affect fighters. In small fleet fights it may allow them to use carriers, large fleet fights you'd still be screwed. Fear the Ibis of doom!
FFGR	Posted - 2006.05.17 07:11:00 - [37] Quote: because we all know having someone to warp to in a fleet battle after you have taken armor and shield dmg from 100+ ships is needed right? That is another thing and why the Logistics class is not "wanted". They were designed as support ships in mind, boosting your forces, not damage ones. Quote: capital ships = ships which should be ideal for large scale battles. They are not required to be on the battlefield apart from Dreads and maybe Carriers that will try to keep alive as much as possible the dreads if they are beeing focused fired. Quote: wow you can fit something stupid like 2 cruisers in a carrier its going to have a massive impact on the battle for sure and everyone needs to refit when they have there pvp setup on allready Who said that I agree with the current hangar m3 ? Quote: oh and BTW command ships get better gang module bonus than carriers so i would hardly call the carrier there big brother, which leaves carriers for one thing sitting at a safespot/pos with its fighters assigned to someone else. You know I said "Carriers and their big brothers, the Motherships" (you can see that I have done NO edit to the previous post). The gang assisting Command ship is good for the racial gang assist modules it "should" be running. Really now though ... you know a command ship that will enter a big 100vs100 battle with the chance of beeing able to hit something apart from the Vulture ? PS : Stop posting with a 2 month alt, it makes you look stupid. _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Pottsey	Posted - 2006.05.17 08:00:00 - [38] Edited by: Pottsey on 17/05/2006 08:02:56 ôI haven't seen a Command ship with bonus to remote repairers/shield boosters,ö Its there only its sort of hidden away and itÆs a vary large bonusÆs. Command ships run 3 gang assist module with the shield and amour ones boosting remote repairers/shield boosters. My command ship has a 22.5% bonus to remote repairer speed and 22.5% less cap needed. If I swap to Damnation that 22.5% bonus gets even bigger. Much better then a Carrier with 1 gang assist and a bigger bonusÆs then a Carrier with a Damnation or Vulture ship. Passive shield tanking guide, click here.
Aloysius Knight	Posted - 2006.05.17 09:35:00 - [39] ive been saying this fo along time, carriers at this point in time SUCK you take away the abiltiy to refit in space and fighters what do you have? I like many other carrier pilots im sure, don't want a IWIN ship we want something that we can use in fleet fights capital ships neeed a huge boost in terms of fighting, dreads at ok but the rest are jokes atm you ask anyone 4 months before carriers came out the if they traing for them all you would do is sit ss'ed with someone else useing your fighters
Boonaki	Posted - 2006.05.17 11:19:00 - [40] Originally by: Aloysius Knight ive been saying this fo along time, carriers at this point in time SUCK you take away the abiltiy to refit in space and fighters what do you have? I like many other carrier pilots im sure, don't want a IWIN ship we want something that we can use in fleet fights capital ships neeed a huge boost in terms of fighting, dreads at ok but the rest are jokes atm you ask anyone 4 months before carriers came out the if they traing for them all you would do is sit ss'ed with someone else useing your fighters QFT! Fear the Ibis of doom!

delta2zero	Posted - 2006.05.17 12:25:00 - [41] Edited by: delta2zero on 17/05/2006 12:27:57 Quote: you know a command ship that will enter a big 100vs100 battle with the chance of beeing able to hit something apart from the Vulture ? he can sit at a safespot instead of someone in a ship worth over 1 billion was my point. sorry about my post btw! seems a little offensive towards you after reading it again this morning. just trying to get my point across that there are ships that can do what the carrier does better for a smaller ammount of isk
Jon Xylur	Posted - 2006.05.17 13:25:00 - [42] Titan costs a ridiculous amount of money, tkes months to build and will get killed by 10 BSs in 5 minutes. This is just wrong. Titan doesn't even have much more armour/shield than a mothership, despite being atlest 10 times bigger. I don't see any point in building one as a mothership can do mots of them same stuff and jump portal+ doomsday device isn't worth that price. Please make it BIG, so you need the whole fleet to fire at it for a long time for it to die. Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, and not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
El Yatta	Posted - 2006.05.17 14:20:00 - [43] Titans: need to have around 10m structure, 5m 'primary' HP (shield for caldari, armour for amarr) and 1m of the secondary. Gal/Min a little more balanced, say 4m armour, 2m shield for gal and 4/2 or 3/3 for minmatar. Lose the capital weapons hardpoints, add a fighter bay, fighter bonuses (+5 fighters/level, 5% racial fighter damage (no extra on gallente), no capital remote rep bonuses). Lose the gun bonuses, add a tank bonus to them all as well (5% resists, or 7.5% repair rate). More support options, we have 8 highslots, and no weapons any more to fill them. Mix and match from: 1- Doomsday 2- Clone Vat Bay 3- Jump Portal Array 4- Defence Field (POS forcefield, prevents stuff around you being locked, prevent enemy approach. Has no HP in itself, Titan still targetable, obv. has less HP than a POS,but can tank, -100% speed) 5- Seige Mod (definitely needed) 6-10 Up to 5 gang assist mods 11-13 Capital energy, armour and shielf x-fers (no bonus though, unlike carriers) 14- Factory Bay (anchors you, same as clone bay, but activate say 3 assembly lines that people with the right access can use) 15- Insurance Bay (controversial, not sure about this yet.) 16- Gravity Well Generator (-20% velocity, -4 points warp capability, radius 50km around the titan) Stuff like this makes the titan totally unique, gives a lot of options as to what a Titan is fitting, and makes it a true logistic platform for an invasion or nomadic force, with many station-like abilities, and the ability to deploy fighters remotely, in great force. ---:::---
Marcus Alkhaar	Posted - 2006.05.17 19:12:00 - [44] I read the first post. so uhm, dont flame me if you already suggested this. Dreadnougts: first, take away their resists second, add a crazy ammount of hitpoints (500k? 1m?) Third, Example: give caldari dread 30% kin res, 30% therm res, 0 em, 0 exp. (every race got a damage type) this is just a picture for how it could be done, give the hardeners you fit a 50-60% decrease in hardening just so you dont get an uber tank
chaos98	Posted - 2006.05.17 19:26:00 - [45] the titan needs to be able to equip weapons, the thought that it has perhaps 8 hi slots and the capacity for 7 guns is insane, it's massive, and 7 guns is not that much for a ship that makes any other ship look pitiful and tiny. I think it should have something more like an array of guns on the surface of it itself, if anybody has ever seen battlestar galactica, im reffering to the galacticas "firing solution" where it has all the cannons on the top side firing at the cylon base stars.
Cummilla	Posted - 2006.05.17 20:20:00 - [46] CCP just needs to have the courage to expand their conceptualization of what should and should not be on the front lines of a fleet action. Blobberships(BS's) lining up at 100+km and ducking and weaving through ECM is the current boring flavor of today's fleet actions. Part of this is alliance FC's forgetting about inventive tactics of the past that involved ships of other sizes besides the BS. A big part of this current boredom however is the new ships haven't been permitted to fulfill their promise and truly add something to combat. CCP has been in full backslide mode with dreads trying to undo the initial statement that made regarding that capital ship type as supposedly having a anti BS role. Carriers have been relegated to safespots! And titans we don't really know about because of lack of actual ingame experiences with them, but our calculators and published stats in terms of hitpoints make things look not too spiffy atm. 1) Give dreads back their anti BS role 2) Give carriers ability to jump through normal gates and fit XL turrets, EW near immunity, and a bump in HP. 4 cit torps on a chimera is not going to be overpowering due to the fact that it is only in seige mode that is specific to dreads where that weapons platform shines. Lastly, think about this: What have CCP done to unnerf ANY capital ship???? Outside of greatly enhance siege mode for dreads I cannot thing of another unnerfing event. Yet more cap ship types come with the obligatory pre nerf. Some would suggest that enhancing cap ships would be sooo overpowering, etc. But those people do not address the significant barriers to entry into the business of flying those types of ships. It's not just iskies for fighters, the carrier, or the dread and it's fittings. That's not even the major element of effort required to fly a capital ship. I had my phoenix in the hangar months before it took flight. TRAINING TIME AND SKILL BOOK EXPENSE will always be the limiting factor in making capital ships relatively rare items in Eve.
Shaelin Corpius	Posted - 2006.05.17 20:31:00 - [47] I love my cap ships and they are pretty uber if you fit them right. But they all do need some more hps. Especially the titan and motherships. Motherships should have 4-5x the hp of regular carrier. Titan should have at least 4x the hps it has now. I only say this because of the isk value you have to put into these things. 50b for one. um thats 50 carriers. I'd rather have that then one puny titan. Titans doomsday weapon is absolutely NO match for a pack of dreads and carriers. As 75k damage sounds like alot untill you subtract %80 of that with resist. Wouldn't even phase any cap ship fleet. I would suggest about %20-30 more hps for carriers n dreads.
Shaelin Corpius	Posted - 2006.05.17 20:40:00 - [48] Also this is a MUCH needed change to dreadnoughts. Their guns need a NON-Siege boost big time. But balance out the Siege Module to fit the specs for POS shooting. Cause they kinda suck ass when they aren't in siege. I know they are meant for taking stations and whatnot. But they are and should be Fleet worthy ships. My suggestion, Lower the ROF on capital weapons by half. Increase the tracking a lil'. And boost the damage on them double. Reconfigure the Siege module so that when in siege they produce the same amount of damage as they do now, cause its fine atm.
Karash Amerius	Posted - 2006.05.17 21:56:00 - [49] While you are at it, take a look at Frig -> Cruiser -> Battleship comparisons...its really out of whack. Karash Amerius Tac Coordinator, OEC Merc Blog
chaos98	Posted - 2006.05.17 22:05:00 - [50] yeah, a bs should be able to own a frigate

Malacore	Posted - 2006.05.17 23:30:00 - [51] I always envisioned to be a sort of megazord of capital ships. A combination carrier/dreadnaught/POS wrapped in one big package and handed down to man by the devs for us to kill each other with. Right now we don't have that, not by a long shot. We have big ships that don't look all that great and have little actual value for their monetary cost. Why the hell shouldn't Titans be powerful ships, they're TITANS. They are the single biggest war machine built by man, and are currently useless. They're going to be brutally uncommon ships, so why the hell can't they be uncommon yet powerful ships?
ragewind	Posted - 2006.05.17 23:47:00 - [52] i like the idea of capitals having the option to fit large numbers of BS guns instead of just capital guns as they are for pos killing. should make it 1 cap gun or 2 normal large guns so this would actually give them the chance of ever beeing used in a fleet battle ------------------------------------ fix eves industrial sector! advanced industrial ship
NickWest	Posted - 2006.05.18 00:09:00 - [53] Originally by: El Yatta Titans: need to have around 10m structure, 5m 'primary' HP (shield for caldari, armour for amarr) and 1m of the secondary. Gal/Min a little more balanced, say 4m armour, 2m shield for gal and 4/2 or 3/3 for minmatar. Lose the capital weapons hardpoints, add a fighter bay, fighter bonuses (+5 fighters/level, 5% racial fighter damage (no extra on gallente), no capital remote rep bonuses). Lose the gun bonuses, add a tank bonus to them all as well (5% resists, or 7.5% repair rate). More support options, we have 8 highslots, and no weapons any more to fill them. Mix and match from: 1- Doomsday 2- Clone Vat Bay 3- Jump Portal Array 4- Defence Field (POS forcefield, prevents stuff around you being locked, prevent enemy approach. Has no HP in itself, Titan still targetable, obv. has less HP than a POS,but can tank, -100% speed) 5- Seige Mod (definitely needed) 6-10 Up to 5 gang assist mods 11-13 Capital energy, armour and shielf x-fers (no bonus though, unlike carriers) 14- Factory Bay (anchors you, same as clone bay, but activate say 3 assembly lines that people with the right access can use) 15- Insurance Bay (controversial, not sure about this yet.) 16- Gravity Well Generator (-20% velocity, -4 points warp capability, radius 50km around the titan) Stuff like this makes the titan totally unique, gives a lot of options as to what a Titan is fitting, and makes it a true logistic platform for an invasion or nomadic force, with many station-like abilities, and the ability to deploy fighters remotely, in great force. This I like.
Wesley Harding	Posted - 2006.05.18 00:21:00 - [54] The risk vs. reward of Capital ships doesn't justify their costs in training, ISK, and management.
Emeline Cabernet	Posted - 2006.05.18 00:28:00 - [55] are not titans immune to any form of ew? how are 10 bs's gonna kill it when it can warp out any time it wants to?
Wrayeth	Posted - 2006.05.18 00:47:00 - [56] Edited by: Wrayeth on 18/05/2006 00:51:45 Edited by: Wrayeth on 18/05/2006 00:49:06 Originally by: Shaelin Corpius Also this is a MUCH needed change to dreadnoughts. Their guns need a NON-Siege boost big time. But balance out the Siege Module to fit the specs for POS shooting. Cause they kinda suck ass when they aren't in siege. I know they are meant for taking stations and whatnot. But they are and should be Fleet worthy ships. My suggestion, Lower the ROF on capital weapons by half. Increase the tracking a lil'. And boost the damage on them double. Reconfigure the Siege module so that when in siege they produce the same amount of damage as they do now, cause its fine atm. I could get behind this suggestion. Dreads were touted in an old deb blog as the be-all-and-end-all of combat ships. This was also the blog that said that titans wouldn't be the most powerful combat ships in EVE (lol - superweapon, anyone?). In any case, I would like to see dreads be more useful in general combat and not just shooting at POS. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Mordred Blight	Posted - 2006.05.18 01:17:00 - [57] I have to agree with the sentiment expressed in the thread so far, capital ships need a to be effective in the current climate / field of war ( or that environment to be changed for them to have a definitive role ) and need to reflect their cost and effort required to pilot them. what mechanics are implemented to do this exactly I don't know, but some of the things outlined in this thread and others wouldn't hurt

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