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Doomdutch
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Posted - 2006.05.26 19:01:00 -
[61]
Eve is the first long-term MMORPG I've played continously for over a year (17 months to be precise). And over that period of time, I changed my style of play; I went from ultracarebearing-mining to a more pvp-oriented character.
And yes, I would find it interesting to be able to modify my attributes (for a certain fee) for a character that's been, lets say, a year or two in-game. It could be a kind of modification to your clone, and it could motivate people to stay in-game a longer, instead of quitting because a character is not fit at all.
And no, I'm not gonna start a new character.
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Apertotes
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Posted - 2006.05.26 21:59:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Nasir Thran
Originally by: Apertotes
+1 perception --> saves me 29 days, 9 hours
+1 charisma --> saves me 13 days, 2 hours
Please reconsider what you said. 29 to 13 days means that PERC is 200% worth CHA. (exactly it is more than 200%).
You just made the plan with your stats, were CHA is already lower ... redo with CHA and PERC changed (switch their values -> CHA 23.1, PERC 19.8), than calculate again, because the thread is about _high_ charisma and the losses thereoff (if any)
Note please that I write this only to question the argument and numbers, NOT for the sake of burning CHA on the stakes. As for the discussion: I stick with my ATTR, my ALT has them even as far as gallente can even them out. With my main, this one posting, I would rather mourn to high mem/int, which was based on a friend's suggestion. But I "jack-of-all-trades" skills with the main, and right now Leadership/Social is handy.
But I see that comparing rough numbers of CHA based skills to PERC based, CHA loses by miles. I still hope there will be more CHA based stuff in the future.
Sidenote: There is no reroll in mind, if one already
- earned ISK (sum depends on own views/experience with game)
- made some SP (sum depends on own views/experience with game)
- played some time (sum depends on own views/experience with game)(like someone else said, one rathers quits)
but i didnt say anything about perception. what i said is that for this plan (104 million sp FTW!!!!) charisma was more useful than memory and intelligence, not perception or even willpower.
and i also said that even with those numbers, it is unlikely that anybody will max out trade, leadership and social skill groups. but if anybody ever wanted to do so, then, charisma would be more important than intel and memory (if the character isnt production or science heavy)
Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve |
Phaese
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Posted - 2006.05.28 20:50:00 -
[63]
Just a shameless bump; the issue is unresolved and needs to be looked at.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.05.29 13:27:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Pottsey on 29/05/2006 13:30:12
Edited by: Pottsey on 29/05/2006 13:27:59
My current skillpoints broken down my attribute are
25% Memory
24% Intelligence
23% Perception
18% willpower
24% Charisma.
Going by that I would have to say charisma is worth while for some pilots and does not need changing.
öCBCs are not the toughest non-capital ships in the game, but I assume you mean them so let's have a look at the skill requirements (using Gallente as an example):ö
Can you name 1 single none capital ship tougher then a Command ship? They can tank way over 1000dps with ease and without cap problems.
I was talking about fleet commands with are far tougher then Field commands. By toughest I meant hardest to kill not that all the skill points are charisma based. The ships are based around gang assist and leadership which is all charisma.
That and your skill list is wrong itÆs more like.
ItÆs more like
Gallente Cruiser V
Gallente Frigate IV
Command Ships I
Battlecruisers V
Squadron Command IV
Leadership V
Spaceship Command V
Logistics IV
Signature Analysis V
Long Range Targeting V
Electronics 2
And if we add skills for the corresponding warfare links...
Information Warfare V
Information Warfare Specialist V
Squadron Command V
Total SP required: 10,349,455 SP
Charisma based SP required: 3,584,000 SP
Percentage of charisma based SP from total amount: 34.6%
I used lvl 5 skills as I donÆt see any leadership pilot in T2 Fleet Command Ships going around without lvl 5 skills. Spending 35% on charisma skill points seem's like a good enough reason not to take low charisma.
ô1. The minimum requirements to fly a ship are far from the skills needed to use it properly. None of those skills are charisma-based.ö
I see a rank 6 charisma skill in the minimum requirements and the modules for the ship also have charisma as the main attribute.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
Jin Entres
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Posted - 2006.05.29 16:02:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Pottsey
...
Look at me. Now you've seen one leadership pilot going around with level 4 skills. Do you fly around with Command Ships I? If you want to take into account all minimum requirement skills, take a look at the electronics, engineering and navigation skill tree and include everything else.
By your own numbers even the most specialized skills only reach as far as 1/3 of the skills even when only taking into account the bare minimums to pilot the ship. In addition, charisma is not the only attribute used to train. It's at most 2/3 of the total used attributes, which would be if it were primary for all the skills which it isn't.
In addition to that, every day the portion of charisma in your totals is decreasing as you run out of useful charisma-based skills to train, which for most people is a lot sooner than for you.
I don't mean to offend you, Pottsey, but I see your view as biased to justify your own situation because you don't want to admit that you would've been better off with a lower starting charisma. I've shown you the numbers, I don't intend to argue the matter any further.
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.05.29 17:55:00 -
[66]
ôIf you want to take into account all minimum requirement skills, take a look at the electronics, engineering and navigation skill tree and include everything else.ö
I did take into account every single sub skill and none related skill in my above post. But itÆs below again. Charisma is my 2nd highest amount of skill points at 24% and it could be higher by now. I am living evidence that Charisma can be a balanced and useful attribute.
Anyone sayings Charisma is always bad and your always should take low Charisma is wrong. It might be useless for most pilots but not every single pilot.
ôbut I see your view as biased to justify your own situation because you don't want to admit that you would've been better off with a lower starting charisma. I've shown you the numbers, I don't intend to argue the matter any further.ö
I am not biased in the way you say and I admit not every pilot it like me and charisma is not best for everyone. But it really bugs me when people like you tell me ôyou don't want to admit that you would've been better off with a lower starting charisma.ö I have proven low charisma is bad for me and if itÆs bad for me then it can be bad for other pilots. If I took low Charisma and bumped up Willpower I would have less total skill points then I do now. I would most likely be on 30 to 35 million instead of 40 million.
I have 40 million skillpoints at
25% Memory
24% Intelligence
23% Perception
18% willpower
24% Charisma.
Low Charisma for some pilots can be very bad. But your wrong in flat out saying Charisma is bad. Going by my above numbers and knowing there are other pilots like me. I have to say Charisma is just fine how it is. Sure its not usefull for eveyone. But I dont go around saying scarp willpower its useless there are not many usefull skills in willpower.
ôIn addition to that, every day the portion of charisma in your totals is decreasing as you run out of useful charisma-based skills to train, which for most people is a lot sooner than for you.ö
Every day my potion of skill points in charisma is increasing not decreasing. I have ran out of Perception & willpower skills to train having all my combat skills and ship skills maxed out at level 5. But still have plenty of needed Charisma skills. The above data is a few months old it wouldnÆt surprise me if now or in a few months I hit 35% in Charisma. 30% in Memory/Intelligence and the rest in Perception/willpower. Perhaps 40% Charisma
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2006.05.29 18:15:00 -
[67]
Intaki get completely rogered on charisma, i have used mine for perhaps 250 skill points, yet I start with a base of 8. This wouldn't be such an annoying point if it wern't for the fact that there are some bloodlines who have next to no, widely useless, charisma.
As the OP said, we chose it, but when you log on for the first time, charisma dosn't scream mostly useless like it does when you know something about the game.
As it is, it renders some bloodlines better than others.
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread |
Nikoo
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Posted - 2006.05.29 18:35:00 -
[68]
hahahahahahaha... *uff* sorry just let me take one moment to laugh abit more... hahahahahahaha... For crying out loud this thread tops my silliest threads ever. just one word : haha
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SonOfAGhost
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Posted - 2006.05.29 18:43:00 -
[69]
Any wagers on the new Kali-related skills being charisma heavy? The OP and his supporters seem very short-sighted to me.
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Phaese
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Posted - 2006.05.29 20:17:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Nikoo
Edited by: Nikoo on 29/05/2006 18:47:39
hahahahahahaha... *uff* sorry just let me take one moment to laugh abit more... hahahahahahaha... For crying out loud this thread tops my silliest threads ever. just one word : haha i would guess that the next big patch or maybe the one after that will add some charisma skill if you nag enough :D
Well, a few things. First: that isn't one, and those aren't words. Second: you're a ******* dumbass. ^_^
Originally by: SonOfAGhost
Any wagers on the new Kali-related skills being charisma heavy? The OP and his supporters seem very short-sighted to me.
Oh, for christ's sake... You're totally missing the point. Regardless of what new Charisma-based skills come in, what if the player with high charisma has no desire to train that skill tree? High-charisma PvPers should basically be screwed over, then, unless they want to spec in flying a totally maxed-out command ship.
Players need to offered the option to rearrage their skillpoints to suit their play style once they've played the game a bit.
A simple system that would, just once, let the player get their 5 "free" points as well as rechoose an ancestry again would solve half the problem here (the other half being that there'd be no reason to ever take charisma, which is solved by adding new skill trees).
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Lorette
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Posted - 2006.05.30 00:09:00 -
[71]
As ive always said some charisma skills will come along some day and all the people with 26 per/will and 3 charisma will cry  . Its not a race to get the most sp, im probably about 10-20 days behind someone with high perception after 6 months, big whoop.
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Karx
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Posted - 2006.05.30 02:18:00 -
[72]
lets just scrap it all and go with d&d attributes:
strength
dexterity
wisdom
constitution
intelligence
charisma
^jk |
Iratus Caelestis
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Posted - 2006.05.30 09:13:00 -
[73]
Originally by: SonOfAGhost
Any wagers on the new Kali-related skills being charisma heavy? The OP and his supporters seem very short-sighted to me.
People have been saying this for over 2 years. Then again Kali is over a year overdue.
All we've gotten was a few leadership skills that you'll only want to take one speciality track in and be fully trained in 8 weeks and a bunch of trades skills that take even less time to train and a large percentage of the player base don't care enough about to train more than a couple of skills to level 4.
It just strikes me as odd that they come up with the genius of the time based system and then limit every single person that uses it, I know they want to sell additional accounts, one for industry/research one for NPC'ing and PvP, I think that is a bit greedy. Equally expecting people to reroll after a couple of weeks because they now know better is equally unreasonable, its sensible but people shouldn't have to do it.
There's also the point of view that there is little point in training anything other than a Caldari Achura now. If we followed some peoples geeky methodology and read all the forums for 3 days before creating a character they are just about the only logical choice.
I think Eve could learn something from Conan (don't ask) and perhaps give everyone generic attributes of 7 across the board for the first month and then give them the chance to choose after that. It would give people the chance to experiment and find a play style before making their massively important decision.
All the existing characters should have a one off chance of spending something like 100m isk to go back to the Character creation screen and redo their attributes whilst still maintaining the race limits.
Perhaps we could use our complex fullrene shards / blood drops for this :)
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.05.30 17:09:00 -
[74]
ôAll we've gotten was a few leadership skills that you'll only want to take one speciality track in and be fully trained in 8 weeks and a bunch of trades skills that take even less time to train and a large percentage of the player base don't care enough about to train more than a couple of skills to level 4.ö
We got more then a few leadership skills. There was clone jumping and all the connections books for mission runners. WasnÆt there some research lab management skill books as well?
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
Phaese
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Posted - 2006.05.31 07:05:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Iratus Caelestis
Originally by: SonOfAGhost
Any wagers on the new Kali-related skills being charisma heavy? The OP and his supporters seem very short-sighted to me.
People have been saying this for over 2 years. Then again Kali is over a year overdue.
All we've gotten was a few leadership skills that you'll only want to take one speciality track in and be fully trained in 8 weeks and a bunch of trades skills that take even less time to train and a large percentage of the player base don't care enough about to train more than a couple of skills to level 4.
It just strikes me as odd that they come up with the genius of the time based system and then limit every single person that uses it, I know they want to sell additional accounts, one for industry/research one for NPC'ing and PvP, I think that is a bit greedy. Equally expecting people to reroll after a couple of weeks because they now know better is equally unreasonable, its sensible but people shouldn't have to do it.
There's also the point of view that there is little point in training anything other than a Caldari Achura now. If we followed some peoples geeky methodology and read all the forums for 3 days before creating a character they are just about the only logical choice.
I think Eve could learn something from Conan (don't ask) and perhaps give everyone generic attributes of 7 across the board for the first month and then give them the chance to choose after that. It would give people the chance to experiment and find a play style before making their massively important decision.
All the existing characters should have a one off chance of spending something like 100m isk to go back to the Character creation screen and redo their attributes whilst still maintaining the race limits.
Perhaps we could use our complex fullrene shards / blood drops for this :)
I agree with the fact that an option like that needs to be implemented, but there's two problems here. First, pushing for a consistant 7 across the board is not going to happen; it's too radical for it to ever happen. Second, charging isk is a dumb idea for a service like that; it gives some characters the ability to change for every set of skills they do.
A one-time reroll that's only accessible to 1-2 month-old players is a better idea in my opinion (a "reroll" simply being a player getting to redistribute their 5 extra points and their rechoose their ancestry).
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Raider Zero
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Posted - 2006.05.31 18:54:00 -
[76]
Other games have done re-rolls after major patches that majorly change gameplay (CoH comes to mind). It's not hard and would stop this bickering. I rolled Min-Seb by accident, and ended up with decent balance, but not as good as if I re-rolled. However my 4.5 million SP are not going to go to waste over the chance that I could be better if I re-rolled.
I vote in favor of a one-time re-roll for current characters, initial attributes only, and with the same rules as new char creation (not 28 attrib pts.-put them where you want them). Then implement it for all new characters at one month -any longer and you'll have everybody and their brother noticing that the simple learning skills are all int/mem and loading up for the first month, then redistributing for the remainder of their life.
The re-roll this way would allow the well prepared to train learning skills fast and would allow those of us who fell in during a trial to kiss our dates before we marry them.
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Laramon Questor
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Posted - 2006.06.01 04:09:00 -
[77]
Look at me. I'm Seb. My int is out of this world. Why, do you ask?
I USED COMMON SENSE.
I started back in December '04. I had no idea what the game was like, I just rolled the dice and bought an account. I also didn't know about the custom option, so ended up with the stats that were given to me. Am I complaining? No.
I thought I wanted to be a scientist type character, and so I would need int. I found out that wasn't for me, but I haven't regretted it.
I thought that I didn't want to interact much with people, so I wouldn't need charisma. I ended up with 3 or 4. I still have a few charisma skills, which are useful.
I wasn't sure what memory would be used for, but I figured it had something to do with int, so I picked a bloodline that was closely balanced with int.
Perception/willpower are my weak points bar charisma. But I am one HELL of a pilot. Why? Because my support skills are good, so I can cram a load of crap on the ships I train for. Yeah, it takes a long time to train for new ships, but it's worth it when I can fly them because they're immediately deadly.
Now on the topic of rerolls... NOOOOOOO!
What's to stop someone from training charisma skills up, and them switching to another line? Nothing. You could max out charisma when you start, train a good way into the charisma tree, then switch to another tree for the rest of your life. Completely takes out the point of specializing.
Also you have to consider: If perception is 200% better than charisma, then have your charisma at exactly 1/2 your perception. If you're that hard-core to min-max, that won't be an issue, will it?
And as to those who would rather quit than scrap your character: WTF? I was miffed when they added in advanced learning skills after I was playing for months. People younger than me were able to catch up. Then I was miffed when new bloodlines were introduced with better balanced stats that I would have picked had they been available when I started. You didn't see me start over, did you? Did you see me all over the boards going "OMFG WTF? CHANGE MY CHAR TO NEW BLOODLINE!" did you? I would have done the P^2 if I had more money to spend and enjoyed the new bloodlines, but I don't and I didn't. I'm still happy with my character, and I got over it all. I still wish I had advanced learning before I trained all the way to Interceptors and Covert Ops and just basic learning skills. 
So just grow up and learn. If your character was less than a month old, and you learned that you didn't want to do what your character was good at, then start over. If you don't, then deal.
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Phaese
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Posted - 2006.06.01 16:29:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Laramon Questor
Originally by: Phaese
1) "Your fault".
2) "You should have rerolled".
3) "Stop whining about it, it's just SP".
Also, you're right; there is no easy way to prevent someone from training up an entire skilltree and then just switching. It's not really a problem anyway.
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Dano Sarum
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Posted - 2006.06.02 12:37:00 -
[79]
Theres way too many skills that are PERC based ... aka combat based too. Thats all the problem is. The longer you're playing the longer you realise "hey, those *** achura and khanid can train and get SP way way way faster then I can!".
I took a crappy low PERC roll in favour of support skills, INTENTIONALLY, I figured that I'd have better fittings and equipment early on rather then decent gunnery skills... nope, weapons upgrades / advanced weapon upgrades for some reason were in the gunnery tree and thus PERC primary. Come on man if you want combat PERC got it ALL.
Can't some skills just be redistributed under different headers / primaries / secondaries and make char either more usefull or more appealing to do something except kill people?
I mean jeez, even carebears need PERC for the ORE Ships.
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Hardin
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Posted - 2006.06.02 15:40:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Tripoli
Look to the future, folks. Charisma will slowly become more and more needed as the game continues to evolve. Trust me. 
You will all fear me then
Seriously - As Oosel (the only other person I know with 27 Charisma) said charisma doesn't need to hold you back.
In EVE you are what you make yourself and SP's don't really matter In fact they are coming in quite handy atm in my training for my Fleet Command Ship...
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Hardin's Blog
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Phaese
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Posted - 2006.06.03 04:27:00 -
[81]
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Risk
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Posted - 2006.06.03 06:49:00 -
[82]
I beta tested this game, as well as played it from the first day it came out.
For the people who said attributes didnt have descriptors when the game came out, are full of non-sense, even in beta people knew what the attributes did during player creation. My character, i knew was going to be combat, so i rolled high perc/will. And still today my character came out perfect.
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Hardin
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Posted - 2006.06.03 08:27:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Hardin on 03/06/2006 08:28:38
Originally by: Phaese
Umm what are you trying to say here?
Is it
a) You have been playing since Day 1 and only have 39,645,517 skillpoints due to your 27 charisma - you noob?
or
b) Your not complaining about Charisma holding you back because you have 39,645,517 skillpoints - you noob?
If it is option b - then it kinda proves the point - I have 39,645,517 skillpoints DESPITE having 27 Charisma - hence demonstrating that high Charisma really makes very little serious difference (apart from maybe having a few SP less than my contemporaries which tbh has very little practical ingame effect) :P
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Hardin's Blog
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.06.03 12:51:00 -
[84]
I am with Hardin here. My Charisma is not as impressive being only 25 but like him I have 39,198,378 million skill points and I joined the game pretty late a good 6 months to a year after it came out. Not sure precisely how late.
But either way joining so late with a high Charisma and high skillpoints I donÆt feel Charisma has hold me back. If anything it gave me more skillpoints over having a low Charisma.
Passive shield tanking guide, click here. |
Phaese
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Posted - 2006.06.03 20:46:00 -
[85]
I'm saying that at 39 million skillpoints, of course you don't care about being gimped or think that you're gimped at all. If I had 39 million skillpoints, I wouldn't care about changing this situation at all either.
However, I don't have 39 million skillpoints, and I'm stuck trying to play as a combat character with high charisma because I didn't research the game before I made my character.
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Alhanna Daeragos
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Posted - 2006.06.04 03:19:00 -
[86]
I disagree. A few reasons: Social skills, Trade Skills, Corporation Managements skills. In any RPG type environment there needs to be a variable to simulate 'people' skills. To use an old system for example:
Strength, Dexterity, Constitution
Intelligence, Wisdom
Charisma.
The first three represent ones physical prowess, or lack there, of a character.
Division two includes those mental faculties incorporated by that character. Knowing, and "Common Sense".
The third factors physical appearance, attitude, etc.
Charisma in Eve is a vital attribute, not only would getting rid of it be asinine, but it would flaw the very fundamental 'realism' of the game. Mental strengths, and physical aptitude have nothing to do with interactions with other NPCs, let alone PC's. Most people however tend to be themselves in Eve, some prefer to roleplay. Some cannot differentiate between the two.
I wouldn't expect it to be changed anytime soon, and like another said you had the option when you created the character, and you have the option of altering it after the creation of the character. There are limitations placed on these according to race, their descriptions state this decisively.
Don't hold your breath.
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Phaese
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Posted - 2006.06.04 19:54:00 -
[87]
I agree. Charisma has it's place, there are skills that use it, and many characters have had their high charisma take them very far in skill training. I don't want charisma to be taken out of the game, though it could definitely use a few more skills.
My problem is with how players who had no idea how the game works and foolishly didn't reroll are stuck with a handicap for the rest of their time playing because they aren't in the minority that wants to specialize in charisma-based skills.
Thus why I push for reallocation.
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Kalixa Hihro
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Posted - 2006.06.04 21:54:00 -
[88]
Originally by: andronymous
Edited by: andronymous on 20/05/2006 08:51:48
This is an unashamedly personally motivated moan from an Intaki chharacter, but is there any chance of just scrapping the Charisma attribute?
Where it is a primary or secondary attribute for skills reassign these to other attributes.
Let us take our charisma attribute points and reallocate them to other attributes (may mean some changes to the speed of learning formulae)
Other than for a minority of characters it is of so little use as to be rendered almost meaningless.
I appreciate I am responsible for having such a high charisma , but the only thing I seem to remember reading before creating my character was that it might be useful for mission running, which seemed like an interested activity at the time.
Haven't tried creating a character for a while, but maybe an alternative is that it comes with a health warning at the get go.
End of moan.
Charisma is used for leadership, social and market skills. Important for pvp and industry skills.
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Phaese
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Posted - 2006.06.05 00:23:00 -
[89]
Charisma does nothing for PvP besides the leadership tree, which is a specialization anyway.
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Shayla Sh'inlux
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Posted - 2006.06.05 00:42:00 -
[90]
Just because a few guys trained a load of charisma skills because they like their agent so much or because they specialized in leadership because of their gimped charisma, doesn't justify the fact that Charisma is useless and Perception is the only attribute that matters in the long run.
Two exceptions doesn't make an attribute good. Neither does one specific fitting make passive shieldtanking good.
There are literally thousands of people that have gimped attributes because CCP keeps adding high rank must-have perception skills and makes the charisma/memory skills cute goodies for specialists. That is a problem and has always been a problem and as long as this game exists without at least allowing us to redistribute the 5 starting points, it will be a problem and people WILL be posting about it.
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