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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
129
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Posted - 2014.04.23 10:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
My understanding of the latest industry dev blog is:
1) They're doing away with the finite slots mechanic for manufacturing and research, both in stations and POS
2) NPC station slots will be infinite
3) NPC tax per job will vary based on how many slots are being used
4) Tax will vary between zero and somewhere around 14% of 'something' (average New Eden value of total raw materials needed for the job?)
My questions are:
1) Will POS slots be infinite too? Meaning you will - in theory - just need 1 module of each type to have 100 or more concurrent jobs running, provided you accept to pay the maximum tax?
2) Is it reasonable to assume tax will be zero or close to zero for using only the 'rated' number of slots per POS module? As in, 3 copy slots for each Adv Mobile Lab for example?
If the answers to these questions are (or will be, when CCP releases the details) 'YES', then people don't really have reason to whine about 'taxes for using your own POS'... After the exapnsion you'll get the same - or possibly more - 'bang for your buck' for building and maintaining an indy POS. Plus a whole lot of FLEXIBILITY that today is non-existant.
Apologies if this has already been addressed in the threadnought, it's quite long to browse thru! And thanks in advance for your replies. |
Reppyk
The Black Shell Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
558
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Posted - 2014.04.23 13:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
> Buff to the labs (more slots) > No tax at all for your labs ; the "tax" is the tower fuel (and charters). I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. -áI AM A LOWSEC GANKER, HIGHSEC SCUM, NULLSEC BASTARD, WORMHOLE INVADER. Welcome to, welcome to, welcome to my scramble. GÖÑ |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
81
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Posted - 2014.04.23 14:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Correct. There will be no more slots anywhere. POSes, or NPC stations.
Theoretically, one character will be able to start as many jobs in a single POS lab as they have blueprints and materials.
However, there will be some kind of cost scaling fees which have not been explained yet. Yes, in addition to the charters and fuel. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4474708#post4474708
How exactly this works worries me, and I really can't wait for further explanation.
I have two POSes and 10 characters I use for invention currently. I start copy jobs once a week for 2 or 3 days. Then my copy slots are idle for 4 or 5 days. I have a ton of ME and PE slots which are idle 24/7. For invention, I log on each of my 10 characters in the morning and queue up 100 invention jobs in 4 labs. This fills them for ~7.5 hours. Then I go to work. In the evening I repeat. So my invention slots are being used 15 out of 24 hours on a few labs, and completely idle on all the rest. But when I do start my jobs, each lab is queued up to 5 times as many jobs as it has invention slots.
So, if I continue the same way, will I be hit by massive fees during invention because I am overloading those labs? Will I need to figure out a different method, involving spreading all my datacores out among all my labs on both POSes to avoid those taxes? All the headaches involved in managing inventory in so many different places! Do I get credit for the fact that my copy, ME, and PE and the invention slots in other labs are mostly idle?
I really need to see the next blog! |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
132
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Posted - 2014.04.23 14:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Yeah, I didn't even think of the issue you're mentioning about job queing...! Let's hope CCP did!
Hopefully, there will be some mechanic that actually helps you better utilize those idle times.
We'll see, thanks for your reply! |
Kun'ii Zenya
The Executives Executive Outcomes
2
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Posted - 2014.04.23 15:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:Correct. There will be no more slots anywhere. POSes, or NPC stations. Theoretically, one character will be able to start as many jobs in a single POS lab as they have blueprints and materials. However, there will be some kind of cost scaling fees which have not been explained yet. Yes, in addition to the charters and fuel. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4474708#post4474708How exactly this works worries me, and I really can't wait for further explanation. I have two POSes and 10 characters I use for invention currently. I start copy jobs once a week for 2 or 3 days. Then my copy slots are idle for 4 or 5 days. I have a ton of ME and PE slots which are idle 24/7. For invention, I log on each of my 10 characters in the morning and queue up 100 invention jobs in 4 labs. This fills them for ~7.5 hours. Then I go to work. In the evening I repeat. So my invention slots are being used 15 out of 24 hours on a few labs, and completely idle on all the rest. But when I do start my jobs, each lab is queued up to 5 times as many jobs as it has invention slots. So, if I continue the same way, will I be hit by massive fees during invention because I am overloading those labs? Will I need to figure out a different method, involving spreading all my datacores out among all my labs on both POSes to avoid those taxes? All the headaches involved in managing inventory in so many different places! Do I get credit for the fact that my copy, ME, and PE and the invention slots in other labs are mostly idle? I really need to see the next blog!
Well, you could look at possibly shutting down a tower and using station slots. Yes, they might increase costs somewhere between 0-14% depending on where you are located or end up doing invention, but running a POS is pretty expensive too. Basically you'll need to redo the math. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3111
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Posted - 2014.04.23 17:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
I would recommend not bothering to think about this too much, until you have more information.
The mechanics behind the cost scaling are going to be in an upcoming devblog. /Any/ discussion before that one is out is pure, uninformed, speculation. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
223
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Posted - 2014.04.23 17:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP posted in the feedback thread (to clarify) that POS will also be hit by the taxes. No idea if they'll be less, or it's simply the tradeoff for increased speed, or whatever. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3883
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Posted - 2014.04.23 18:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:I would recommend not bothering to think about this too much, until you have more information.
The mechanics behind the cost scaling are going to be in an upcoming devblog. /Any/ discussion before that one is out is pure, uninformed, speculation.
So much this. I suspect we'll know more from fanfest presentations, and dev blogs that will probably be releases shortly after fanfest.
CCP has a decent concept of balancing the game.
Effort vs Reward and Risk vs Reward. Building in a POS should provide you some benefits to help offset the fuel costs for operating it, we just don't know what those benefits are yet. Once you do, you can decide if operating a POS is worth the added efforts and risks.
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Shoogie
Serious Pixels
81
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Posted - 2014.04.23 20:34:00 -
[9] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:I would recommend not bothering to think about this too much, until you have more information.
The mechanics behind the cost scaling are going to be in an upcoming devblog. /Any/ discussion before that one is out is pure, uninformed, speculation.
EXACTLY!
Forgive me for wanting to have a clue about what I will be doing in the game this summer.
A month ago we got the "Reprocess All the Things" blog.
8 days ago we got a dev blog which said, "The entire cost structure of manufacturing anything is changing. But we aren't giving any details yet." And everybody panics.
Soon (TM) we will get a dev blog which will tell us about the UI. Yay. Less RSI for everyone. But it won't help me know what I will be doing with my POSes this summer.
After that, we will get a dev blog about ME and PE research. That also will not affect me. Even if they drastically change the ME and PE formulas, my blueprints will most likely already be "good enough".
Then we will finally get the dev blog we need about price scaling, and what benefit if any my POSes will give me going forward, so that I can start to plan for the future.
Lastly, the "teams" thing, which I assume will be a nice way for me to use my alts.
So yes, I am very impatient. Hanging out here in limbo for three more dev blogs before I get a clue is killing me.
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Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
0
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Posted - 2014.04.23 21:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:I would recommend not bothering to think about this too much, until you have more information.
The mechanics behind the cost scaling are going to be in an upcoming devblog. /Any/ discussion before that one is out is pure, uninformed, speculation. EXACTLY! Forgive me for wanting to have a clue about what I will be doing in the game this summer. A month ago we got the "Reprocess All the Things" blog. 8 days ago we got a dev blog which said, "The entire cost structure of manufacturing anything is changing. But we aren't giving any details yet." And everybody panics. Soon (TM) we will get a dev blog which will tell us about the UI. Yay. Less RSI for everyone. But it won't help me know what I will be doing with my POSes this summer. After that, we will get a dev blog about ME and PE research. That also will not affect me. Even if they drastically change the ME and PE formulas, my blueprints will most likely already be "good enough". Then we will finally get the dev blog we need about price scaling, and what benefit if any my POSes will give me going forward, so that I can start to plan for the future. Lastly, the "teams" thing, which I assume will be a nice way for me to use my alts. So yes, I am very impatient. Hanging out here in limbo for three more dev blogs before I get a clue is killing me.
and I very much agree with you, if folks want to sit back and say any questions and discussion about what hasn't been disclosed yet is only mere misinformation and speculation... duh that's what forums are all about.. discussing and connecting and talking about upcoming changes.. excuse the newbies who just want to be in the "know".. sorry not many newbies are sitting on fat stack of isk like vets who're planning to spend it in their 10yr **** pot station..
im very impatient as well and I hope they come forth.. but now considering the timeframe just as you mention. I expect we get more information by time fanfest comes around (hey they gotta have content for streaming afterall..money money money :) so I sit back and wait till next week. |
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
137
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Posted - 2014.04.23 22:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:I would recommend not bothering to think about this too much, until you have more information.
The mechanics behind the cost scaling are going to be in an upcoming devblog. /Any/ discussion before that one is out is pure, uninformed, speculation. But pure uninformed speculation is fun!
But seriously, thanks everybody for confirming that no details on cost mechanics have been given yet. I expect CCP to balance things reasonably. We shall see soon! |
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
147
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Posted - 2014.04.24 17:24:00 -
[12] - Quote
1) The dev blog doesn't say that slots in arrays in POSes will be infinite.
2) We have no details yet as to figures for any additional taxes on POS slots. CCP generally don't like to make one choice better or cheaper than another. Therefore I would expect costs for doing jobs at POSes and at NPC stations to work out fairly similar in high sec. In null sec I expect the POSes and outposts there will be given a distinct advantage. If you look at the advantage for refining, or reprocessing as CCP wants to rename it now, then you should expect a similar differential. Say ten to twenty percent less costs.
But as others have said all we can do is speculate. The expectation was that the remaining dev blogs would be released before Fanfest. There is now very little time left before Fanfest and apparently there are various national holidays taking place in Iceland currently. So it seems fairly certain now that the remaining information will be released at the EVE keynote speech at Fanfest.
Just cross your fingers that the announced airport strike doesn't take place otherwise a massive spanner will fall into our engines. |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1902
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Posted - 2014.04.24 17:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:I would recommend not bothering to think about this too much, until you have more information.
The mechanics behind the cost scaling are going to be in an upcoming devblog. /Any/ discussion before that one is out is pure, uninformed, speculation.
This. I just chose to shut down my towers, personally. Think I'll dump all my money from now on into my FW alts for pew; the nerfing of the carebear life is just getting too rediculous for me. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Blodhgarm Dethahal
Transcendent Sedition Dustm3n
103
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Posted - 2014.04.24 18:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
If POSs are hit by fees as well that would be unfortunate... you are already paying fuel for decreased research time... why are you making me pay more?
Of course if the taxes are low enough I don't care... but something tells me that I will care... -Bl+¦d
http://bloodytravels.blogspot.com/ -á-- My travels through space. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
223
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 20:29:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:I would recommend not bothering to think about this too much, until you have more information.
The mechanics behind the cost scaling are going to be in an upcoming devblog. /Any/ discussion before that one is out is pure, uninformed, speculation. This. I just chose to shut down my towers, personally. Think I'll dump all my money from now on into my FW alts for pew; the nerfing of the carebear life is just getting too rediculous for me.
Easier job batching No barrier to POS placement Removal of extra materials RAM being made easy Market sorting easier than ever Infinite slots (if you want to use them) Incredible asked-for features for years
CCP please stop nerfing us industrialists by giving us everything we ever asked for. This is clearly terrible. |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
81
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Posted - 2014.04.24 21:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote: Easier job batching No barrier to POS placement Removal of extra materials RAM being made easy Market sorting easier than ever Infinite slots (if you want to use them) Incredible asked-for features for years
CCP please stop nerfing us industrialists by giving us everything we ever asked for. This is clearly terrible.
Easier job batching-yes that has been long overdue. Thank you CCP.
No barrier to POS placement. This is actually bad. There should be optional things people can do-like grinding standings to get a POS-to gain advantages over their competition. What is gained by taking this away from the game?
Removal of Extra Materials. Meh. Extra materials cause confusion to new players which leads to threads here in S&I explaining them. Just make sure your spreadsheet tells you to buy both the regular and extra materials and forget about them.
RAM being made easy. RAMs were never hard. Just slightly annoying in that you would end up with one damaged RAM that would not stack with the others. Same as the damaged frequency crystals in my Amarr ships.
Market sorting? Seriously was this hampering anyone?
Infinite slots, but no information yet on how much costs will scale. So what will POS labs and assembly arrays actually do in the land of infinite slots?
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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
147
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Posted - 2014.04.24 21:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
"No barrier to POS placement".
It's a conflict driver obviously. Same with removing ability to keep BPO in a NPC station in the same system as your POS.
Look what has happened with high sec POSes. There are high sec POCO being attacked all the time mostly by null sec based entities collecting 'QQ'. Expect the same for all moons near trade hubs at least. |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1903
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote:
Easier job batching No barrier to POS placement Removal of extra materials RAM being made easy Market sorting easier than ever Infinite slots (if you want to use them) Incredible asked-for features for years
If you're trying to make your point with those horrible examples, keep trying.
Job Batching: most of us aren't interested in Easy Button industry. No barrier to POS placement: many of us worked hard for that "barrier" to put up our towers; just another example of CCP handing out the Easy Button to nerf high sec even more. Removal of Extra Materials: non-sense. But by all means, you keep thinking that removing that line from the BPO/BPC is actually REMOVING something. RAM: only a complete whiner complains about the RAM thing. Market sorting?? Seriously, you're adding this? Infinite slots: yeah, thanks for the easy button again, CCP! Asked-for features: How about ASKED-FOR BUG FIXES?? Naw, more leather pants and Hello Kitty paint jobs for high sec.
Try to list some examples that don't make my case for me, m'kay? "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
146
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 22:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
What's 'Market Sorting'? |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
225
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Posted - 2014.04.25 12:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote: If you're trying to make your point with those horrible examples, keep trying.
Job Batching: most of us aren't interested in Easy Button industry. No barrier to POS placement: many of us worked hard for that "barrier" to put up our towers; just another example of CCP handing out the Easy Button to nerf high sec even more. Removal of Extra Materials: non-sense. But by all means, you keep thinking that removing that line from the BPO/BPC is actually REMOVING something. RAM: only a complete whiner complains about the RAM thing. Market sorting?? Seriously, you're adding this? Infinite slots: yeah, thanks for the easy button again, CCP! Asked-for features: How about ASKED-FOR BUG FIXES?? Naw, more leather pants and Hello Kitty paint jobs for high sec.
Try to list some examples that don't make my case for me, m'kay?
So your idea of a fun game involves soul crushing UI navigation and clicking thousands of time for progress?
I can see why you'd be upset, now that the industry portion is now actually, y'know, more interesting. |
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Shoogie
Serious Pixels
81
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Posted - 2014.04.25 14:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote:So your idea of a fun game involves soul crushing UI navigation and clicking thousands of time for progress?
I can see why you'd be upset, now that the industry portion is now actually, y'know, more interesting. I like less clicks to accomplish the same tasks I am doing today. However, that is irrelevant to this discussion about POSes.
How is industry more interesting after these changes? |
Chuk Ormand
El Diablo De Verde Mech Alliance
3
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Posted - 2014.04.25 14:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
Infinite slots?????? So with advanced mass production and advanced laboratory at level 4 I can run 10 manufacturing or research jobs anywhere there are factories or labs, regardless of availability?? There must be a catch somewhere?? I currently have my own small pos in a 0.4 system for research. This could become interesting....................hmmmmmm |
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
2145
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 14:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Chuk Ormand wrote:Infinite slots?????? So with advanced mass production and advanced laboratory at level 4 I can run 10 manufacturing or research jobs anywhere there are factories or labs, regardless of availability?? There must be a catch somewhere?? I currently have my own small pos in a 0.4 system for research. This could become interesting....................hmmmmmm
Catch is that the taxes/fees to use slots go up in that system/station.
Granted with a POS, it might be different (note - they still haven't said "what" they're gonna do with POS taxes). One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
81
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 15:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
This was in the comment thread on the dev blog: post number 273.
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Lors Dornick wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:We talk a lot about good and bad complexity within the team. A fair portion of the industry changes are pretty clear examples of removing bad complexity, while still keeping the interesting problems for players to solve. Some of the changes are also centered around cleaning up years of legacy code, freeing us up to better iterate on the feature and do more sexy looking UI Success in industry should be about knowing what to build, how, where, when, sourced from where and sold at the right place and at the right time. Edit: and for the right price. It should never be about to be able to stand or navigate a stupid UI. This.
As someone who owns multiple POSes and uses them for both invention and manufacturing today, I run into two types of "bad complexity."
First is the RSI-inducing clickfest and multiple useless screens to navigate to start each job. This is apparently getting better with the new UI they will discuss in one of these upcoming blogs. Yay!
Second is level balancing every array in my POSes. Do I have enough of each datacore in each lab? Fly out to the POS in a freighter full of raw materials. Put some of them in a manufacturing array. Start a job. Put some more materials in a manufacturing array. Start a second job. Put some more materials in a manufacturing array. Try to start a third job. WTF? Where did my stack of tritanium go? Search around. Oh, there it is, in the wrong division. Grrr.
THIS IS GETTING WORSE.
Today I don't really have to manage my BPCs; and I have literally thousands of non-stacking BPCs at any given time. I can throw them all onto the floor of one of the divisions of my office in the station and not look at them. After the summer patch, BPCs will be one more material I need to level balance: Spread out the T1 BPCs equally among all the labs to invent. Search for the T2 BPCs among all the T1 BPCs, and move them from the labs to the assembly arrays. Again, figure out how to distribute them properly so they can be manufactured with minimum taxes.
And all this hassle is for an unknown bonus. What benefit will we gain from all the risk of hanging assets in space, the cost of fuel, and the hassle of managing it? Will it still be worthwhile, or will all the research and manufacturing POSes come down to be replaced with refining and compressing POSes?
I can deal with that. What is really bothering me is that allowing anyone to put up a POS anywhere is leveling the playing field too much. In PVP, if a character really specializes in a certain ship, fitting, and flying style, then they can get very good at it. I have put a lot of time and effort into industry in this game, and now I will be exactly the same as all the people who dual-trained for a month to make an industry alt.
They say "Adapt or die." THERE IS NO ADAPTING ANYMORE, since EVERYBODY IS EXACTLY THE SAME.
The one thing they have told us we can do is move. Moving your base of operations one station over, or one jump over to pay lower taxes is not really difficult or compelling gameplay. It is just a third annoying type of "bad complexity." |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
188
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 17:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:They say "Adapt or die." THERE IS NO ADAPTING ANYMORE, since EVERYBODY IS EXACTLY THE SAME.
The one thing they have told us we can do is move. Moving your base of operations one station over, or one jump over to pay lower taxes is not really difficult or compelling gameplay. It is just a third annoying type of "bad complexity."
While we will need to wait and see how things really play out (the level of tax will be instrumental here) I definitely share the sentiment. It's nice that the production clickfest can be somewhat simplified but frankly what they are doing is reducing the barrier of entry to industry so much that it borders on triviality.
This does not a good game make.
We'll see. I foresee a bright future for specialised highsec POS bashing corps... though that's a way of losing your soul one pixel at a time. |
El Gravy
Vicious Industrial Redrum Fleet
10
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Posted - 2014.04.26 14:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
Cyniac wrote:I foresee a bright future for specialised highsec POS bashing corps... though that's a way of losing your soul one pixel at a time.
Hell, Starbase grinding in Null Sec has been so awesome you knew they were going to encourage it in Highsec as well right? |
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
2145
|
Posted - 2014.04.26 14:43:00 -
[27] - Quote
Shoogie wrote: [...] Oh, there it is, in the wrong division. Grrr.
THIS IS GETTING WORSE.
Today I don't really have to manage my BPCs; and I have literally thousands of non-stacking BPCs at any given time. I can throw them all onto the floor of one of the divisions of my office in the station and not look at them. After the summer patch,
Here's hoping that they consider a POS (stick + all anchored modules) as a single entity.
Granted it probably won't end up being that way, but we can hope, right?
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
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