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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
131
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Posted - 2014.04.23 11:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
Not sure if this is new, but...
What about adding 'Kill Points' to Loyalty Points?
You get LPs for plexing, missioning, killing the enemy as today.
You get KPs ONLY for killing the enemy (PVP, not PVE).
Something like 1KP for a noobship, 2KPs for T1 frigs, 4KPs for dessies, etc.
In the LP store, KPs would be necessary to get most or all of the items. Think a Navy Comet: 1 Incursus, 1 Gamma Nexus Chip, 10,000 LPs, 2 KPs.
Could farmers just kill an alt? Yes, but 1) effort 2) cuts into their profit. Worst case, PVPers still have a cost (profit) advantage in LP cash-in.
Could they join militia fleets just to farm KPs? Yes, but 1) someone has to invite them 2) if they fight, they're welcome
Why do this? To have less people just farming plexes without actively participating in FW PVP + to encourage PVP even more. In other words, to promote content over farming.
All figures would need careful balancing of course.
Thoughts, y'all? |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
171
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Posted - 2014.04.23 12:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Eh, not really a fan. Adding a complex mechanic that's easy to work around, thus not really solving the problem.
Again, we can't force people to PvP. Anything aimed at doing so isn't going to get implemented.
Change the incentive to farm and the payouts for farming instead. Reduce plexing income so that other AFK activities would be as profitable if not more so. Increase the difficulty of missions to ensure that they're not as easily farmed and multiboxed. Those are things that would force more player attention and reduce the incentives to farm. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
1336
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Posted - 2014.04.23 12:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
I could kill an alt over and over and over and over and etc....
Too easy to exploit. . -á<- Argue this, not this ->-á( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦) |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
131
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Posted - 2014.04.23 12:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:I could kill an alt over and over and over and over and etc....
Too easy to exploit.
Yes, but killing an alt costs money.
Say rookie ships don't give KPs (they can't even get into plexes btw), t1 frigs give 1KP, dessies 2KP and cruisers 4KP.
A farmer repeatedly killing a T1 frig would pay around 300,000 ISK per KP. It would be even worse for dessies and up. Depending on how you set the required KPs per item in the Loyalty Store, it may well be not worth it!
A PVPer gets his KPs 'for free' while he's having fun.
As I mentioned in the OP, at the very least it would make PVP-ers profit more than farmers when they cash-out their LPs, which in itself is a good thing imo. |
Ding Bang Oww
Colony Of Destruction The Methodical Alliance
0
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Posted - 2014.04.23 12:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
You get LP for killing ships. The reason it's so low is so that you can't abuse it to make a profit. You get somewhere between 100-1000 LP for a typical kill. That is 100,000-1,000,000 ISK per kill; almost exactly what you are proposing the KP system would cash out. So this is already a FW mechanic. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
131
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Posted - 2014.04.23 12:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Eh, not really a fan. Adding a complex mechanic that's easy to work around, thus not really solving the problem.
Again, we can't force people to PvP. Anything aimed at doing so isn't going to get implemented.
Not saying that this specific mechanic is the best possible solution, but FW is ALREADY proof that ISK incentive DOES get (not force) people to PVP more!
People that come to FW mostly to 'farm' are already PVP-ing! At the very least they are:
1) getting out of highsec and coming to lowsec
2) learning to avoid gate camps
3) learning to use dscan
4) learning to GTFO
5) understanding that ships are tools and losing one isn't a tragedy
Those are already 5 pretty big steps towards PVP for your average 'highsec carebear', all because of ISK opportunity!
So a further ISK incentive to fight such as 'KPs' could well be just the small 'push' that is needed to get, say, 20% of the current farmers to try out the 'fight' part of PVP instead of only the 'GTFO' part. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
131
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Posted - 2014.04.23 12:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ding Bang Oww wrote:You get LP for killing ships. The reason it's so low is so that you can't abuse it to make a profit. You get somewhere between 100-1000 LP for a typical kill. That is 100,000-1,000,000 ISK per kill; almost exactly what you are proposing the KP system would cash out. So this is already a FW mechanic. True, but it's not the same because you do not NEED to kill ships to get LP.
Also, because of the anti-abuse mechanic you mention, LPs from kills are very very low compared to LPs from plexing or missioning.
With this mechanic, killing ships would be NECESSARY because that would be the ONLY source of Kill Points.
Similar effect to Veskrashen's idea of reducing LP payouts for plexes and missions, but a stronger incentive to PVP imo. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
131
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Posted - 2014.04.23 13:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Change the incentive to farm and the payouts for farming instead. Reduce plexing income so that other AFK activities would be as profitable if not more so. Increase the difficulty of missions to ensure that they're not as easily farmed and multiboxed. Those are things that would force more player attention and reduce the incentives to farm. I'm not sure if this would work actually.
If you get less LP from plexing and missioning, the average ISK/LP would rise, so you would end up getting roughly the same ISK/hour from those activities...
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Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
746
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Posted - 2014.04.23 14:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
you are getting killpoints already, not much use for those but... |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
223
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Posted - 2014.04.23 14:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
Okay so every wednesday all caldari militia forms up in t1 maximum insurance frigs (~50k a loss) and all gallente spend a few hours shooting every one of them once before *disco smartbombs*. Every thursday all gallente militia forms up in t1 frigs....
This is a stupid, stupid idea. |
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
132
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Posted - 2014.04.23 15:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote:Okay so every wednesday all caldari militia forms up in t1 maximum insurance frigs (~50k a loss) and all gallente spend a few hours shooting every one of them once before *disco smartbombs*. Every thursday all gallente militia forms up in t1 frigs.... That wouldn't be necessary, active PVP-ers would already have more than enough KPs to buy Loyalty Store items, LPs would still be the bottleneck.
Also, I seriously doubt that would happen in any case. But how would you know? You're not even in FW and your killboard shows zero lifetime kills/losses.
If you're an alt, at least post with your main if you're planning on posting stuff like this:
Loraine Gess wrote:This is a stupid, stupid idea. in response to honest efforts to stimulate discussion and possibly improve everybody's game. |
Plato Forko
Of Questionable Lineage
57
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Posted - 2014.04.23 18:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP should mail beer coupons for every farmer kill to promote the farming of farmer killmails so that FW neckbeards can be wasted all the time and that will also encourage people to roam around in BS fleets and generate content that EvE needs to survive. My terribad blog where I QQ and rage about Amarr FW |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
223
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Posted - 2014.04.23 19:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Loraine Gess wrote:Okay so every wednesday all caldari militia forms up in t1 maximum insurance frigs (~50k a loss) and all gallente spend a few hours shooting every one of them once before *disco smartbombs*. Every thursday all gallente militia forms up in t1 frigs.... That wouldn't be necessary, active PVP-ers would already have more than enough KPs to buy Loyalty Store items, LPs would still be the bottleneck. Also, I seriously doubt that would happen in any case. But how would you know? You're not even in FW and your killboard shows zero lifetime kills/losses. If you're an alt, at least post with your main if you're planning on posting stuff like this: Loraine Gess wrote:This is a stupid, stupid idea. in response to honest efforts to stimulate discussion and possibly improve everybody's game. EDIT: the point on ship insurance is a valid one though, I edited the OP to take it into account
A stupid idea is a stupid idea regardless of who thinks it's stupid. Besides the added grind FOR NO REASON it adds nothing to gameplay, has a dozen holes in it, and does not even consider the logistics of the matter. |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
349
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Posted - 2014.04.23 21:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
This sounds eerily like the mechanic the Goons exploited to great effect in 2012. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
137
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Posted - 2014.04.23 22:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:This sounds eerily like the mechanic the Goons exploited to great effect in 2012. The fixed 'Kill Point' amount per hull type should avoid that, also you would still need LPs to buy Loyalty Store items.
On a side note, I think CCP's reaction to that exploit was too much of a quick & lazy fix. For example, they could've limited the ship value calculation to common pvp modules, of which it would be extremely difficult to manipulate the price.
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Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
954
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Posted - 2014.04.24 00:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Rinai Vero wrote:NPCs didn't stop the timer from running down in the old FW, and made plex fights completely unbalanced for actual PVP. You had to kill all the rats before the latest changes. This was pretty much the only time the farmers actually abandoned FW.
The ONLY thing that has every truely put a dent in the FW farmer hordes. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Luwc
Biohazard. WINMATAR.
118
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Posted - 2014.04.24 06:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Not sure if this is new, but...
What about adding 'Kill Points' to Loyalty Points?
You get LPs for plexing, missioning, killing the enemy as today.
You get KPs ONLY for killing the enemy (PVP, not PVE).
Something like 1KP for T1 frigs, 2KPs for dessies, 3 KPs for T2 frigs, 4KPs for cruisers, etc. (no KPs for rookie ships). To avoid exploits, KPs earned would be FIXED per hull type, but the killmail would need to be of a minimum value per hull type, say 1 Million ISK for frigs, 2-3 for dessies and so on - corresponding to at least a basic T1 combat fit.
In the LP store, KPs would be necessary to get most or all of the items. Think a Navy Comet: 1 Incursus, 1 Gamma Nexus Chip, 10,000 LPs, 2 KPs.
Could farmers just kill an alt? Yes, but 1) effort 2) significantly cuts into their profit. Worst case, PVPers still have a cost (profit) advantage in LP cash-in.
Could they join militia fleets just to farm KPs? Yes, but 1) someone has to invite them 2) if they fight, they're welcome
Why do this? To have less people just farming plexes without actively participating in FW PVP + to encourage PVP even more. In other words, to promote content over farming.
All figures would need careful balancing of course.
Thoughts, y'all?
No.
Not needed and not wanted. http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif |
Irya Boone
Never Surrender.
349
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Posted - 2014.04.24 07:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
To put an end to this
-LP gain only by blowing ships the bigger the ship bigger the LP reward ( already working)
-No LP gain in PLEXes not at all only Faction standing Increase ( much more than Now ) ; plexing for system contestation. and you can add if a WCS is fitted acces to the gate is denied same code as If you don't have the key in your cargo you can't acces gate seen in high sec mission.
-Remove Upgrading systems for Tier gain only number of systems matter for tiers.
-make FW missions more rewardable ( bounties, salvage, lp and why not some Tags ( like sleepers blue loot)
And the cherry on the FW cake when you take a system make the station after 7 DT have FW agent of your side in it ( only in some systems.
In a way you want money , pvp or missions only.
but people want farmer to have the easy kills they call ...elite pvp :x RENAME WH systems With the name of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It will be awesome.
GalMIl>>ALL |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
137
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Posted - 2014.04.24 08:44:00 -
[19] - Quote
@Irya Boone Maybe too extreme, but yeah shifting LP rewards strongly towards kills vs. plexing is probably the most simple solution.
CCP just needs to put a little effort in making it almost impossible to exploit. As I stated before, only considering the most common modules (say, top 300 pvp items) to estimate ship value should do the trick. Good luck Goons artificially driving DC2s to 10Bil ISK a piece.
@Taoist Dragon I'm sure you and XG are right about the effectiveness of stronger NPCs, but why not entirely remove the root cause of a ton of LP awarded just for sitting for a while in space? |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1455
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Posted - 2014.04.24 11:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
Irya Boone wrote:To put an end to this
-LP gain only by blowing ships the bigger the ship bigger the LP reward ( already working) not really: - some Navy ships have 0 price and give 0 LP for killing - some Navy modules have 0 price and give 0 LP for killing - some implants .....
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
910
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Posted - 2014.04.24 12:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
No need to go that far out. Suggested it way back when and will do so again.
Introduce an escrow system linking killing with LP earnings. People generally defend current abhorrently high payouts by saying that PvP'ers need to eat and thus more is better .. leading to selfsame PvP'ers spending most of the time orbiting buttons raking in the dough instead of doing their thing/duty.
Example (ie. not suggestion, ignore numbers): Player closes a plex, generating system VP and 1/10th current LP. Player completes a mission still getting the 1/10th LP and a similar fraction ISK (bummer, right? read on ..)
Same player then goes out and kills some dude/dudette and is awarded 1000LP as normal, for his service the Navy opens its wallet by putting 20-50x those 1000LP in escrow for him for "soft" participation (ie. activities not leading to death of other pilots). When the player next closes a plex or completes a mission payout is as normal as long as LP-in-Escrow remain, raw ISK for mission completion also normalizes subject to same restriction.
- Actual PvP'ers are largely unaffected, farmers are farmed for a while as they try to use their stab/cloak optimized skill sets to kill something with fangs .. FW will after a while be all but farmer free and we can start spamming chest beating threads again instead of trudging through the damn 'which militia is best for ISK!!!111" threads. NB: When the last farmers ass has tried stopping the the door on his way out we need to/ should decrease plexes needed for flipping to pre-farm levels so as to not stagnate things entirely. |
Sister Lumi
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
90
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Posted - 2014.04.24 13:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Farming warfare is working as intended, it was designed to allow easy accumulation of wealth with throwaway alts so people can focus on other areas of the gameplay. FW wasn't even mentioned in the last CSM Summits, no changes to it are on CCP's agenda.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
139
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Posted - 2014.04.24 16:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
@Veshta Yoshida +1 Similar effect of my OP, but more simple. I think it would still require CCP to carefully look at LP (and escrow) per ship kill (and value of killmail), to avoid obvious exploits.
@Sister Lumi Yes you're probably right. Tbh, FW currently pays enough to satsify both the PVPers and the farmers. Still, nothing wrong in keeping up the discussion to get more money to the PVPers and make life harder for the farmers - CCP might just listen someday. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
223
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Posted - 2014.04.24 20:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:No need to go that far out. Suggested it way back when and will do so again.
Introduce an escrow system linking killing with LP earnings. People generally defend current abhorrently high payouts by saying that PvP'ers need to eat and thus more is better .. leading to selfsame PvP'ers spending most of the time orbiting buttons raking in the dough instead of doing their thing/duty.
Example (ie. not suggestion, ignore numbers): Player closes a plex, generating system VP and 1/10th current LP. Player completes a mission still getting the 1/10th LP and a similar fraction ISK (bummer, right? read on ..)
Same player then goes out and kills some dude/dudette and is awarded 1000LP as normal, for his service the Navy opens its wallet by putting 20-50x those 1000LP in escrow for him for "soft" participation (ie. activities not leading to death of other pilots). When the player next closes a plex or completes a mission payout is as normal as long as LP-in-Escrow remain, raw ISK for mission completion also normalizes subject to same restriction.
- Actual PvP'ers are largely unaffected, farmers are farmed for a while as they try to use their stab/cloak optimized skill sets to kill something with fangs .. FW will after a while be all but farmer free and we can start spamming chest beating threads again instead of trudging through the damn 'which militia is best for ISK!!!111" threads. NB: When the last farmers ass has tried stopping the the door on his way out we need to/ should decrease plexes needed for flipping to pre-farm levels so as to not stagnate things entirely.
So all I have to do is kill my alt a lot
Your idea is also stupid. |
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
223
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Posted - 2014.04.24 20:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
Can someone please explain why it's a good idea to introduce alt-killing as a required mechanic, which has an entry barrier of approximately 0, and a risk barrier approaching that of going 5mph in an open field? |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2157
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Posted - 2014.04.24 20:32:00 -
[26] - Quote
1. Timer rollbacks. 2. Rat difficulty.
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Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Heiian Conglomerate
753
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Posted - 2014.04.24 20:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:1. Timer rollbacks. 2. Rat difficulty.
boring, you know why you want these, not because they are fine mechanics , you want them just to make your job easier.
there is nothing wrong on farming , only thing is that they force you to actually _do_ something to hold systems and if i remember right you were not willing to do anything before CCP changed mechanics to force you do something.
so NO
current mechanic is fine. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
173
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Posted - 2014.04.24 21:11:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:X Gallentius wrote:1. Timer rollbacks. 2. Rat difficulty.
boring, you know why you want these, not because they are fine mechanics , you want them just to make your job easier. I don't think anyone is really willing to say that JUSTK doesn't put in the effort to defend our systems.
A lot of folks see farming as an issue. Things like increasing the tank on rats to raise the minimum effort / dps required to run them would change the fits that farmers use, changing the risk / reward issue. Timer rollbacks help balance the disparity of effort required to counter a farmer's work. Because of how capture mechanics currently work, you need 2-3 pilots worth of time to keep 1 farmer in check (rough estimate, but probably pretty close to accurate).
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Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Heiian Conglomerate
753
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Posted - 2014.04.24 21:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Bad Messenger wrote:X Gallentius wrote:1. Timer rollbacks. 2. Rat difficulty.
boring, you know why you want these, not because they are fine mechanics , you want them just to make your job easier. I don't think anyone is really willing to say that JUSTK doesn't put in the effort to defend our systems. A lot of folks see farming as an issue. Things like increasing the tank on rats to raise the minimum effort / dps required to run them would change the fits that farmers use, changing the risk / reward issue. Timer rollbacks help balance the disparity of effort required to counter a farmer's work. Because of how capture mechanics currently work, you need 2-3 pilots worth of time to keep 1 farmer in check (rough estimate, but probably pretty close to accurate).
system is clear, people who uses most time in plexes will win the plex, killing or chasing people out does not help anything itself, you have to stay in plex to make timer roll, That is basic idea of plexes.
So now you want to defend plexes without even being in plexes. that is more lame than just putting you alt with empty frigate to roll timer.
Current system is working really good, people are in plexes happily and rolling timers and getting rewards as players wanted.
When you want something you should think what really happens if CCP implement it. You wanted rewards from plexes and you wanted to remove npc to make pvp easy, you got what you wanted and system works fine no one really need timer rollbacks.
Just kill farmer before he rolls timer or defend plex afterwards, now you need 24/7 control if you are not willing to spend time in plexes. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
143
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Posted - 2014.04.24 21:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:X Gallentius wrote:1. Timer rollbacks. 2. Rat difficulty.
boring, you know why you want these, not because they are fine mechanics , you want them just to make your job easier. there is nothing wrong on farming , only thing is that they force you to actually _do_ something to hold systems and if i remember right you were not willing to do anything before CCP changed mechanics to force you do something. so NO current mechanic is fine. I understand your point on spending time to defend systems but... really? Your idea of a strike group for warzone control is swarms of little ISK-hunters that switch sides based on ISK/LP ratio? |
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