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Paul Otichoda
Mine Your 0wn Business Brothers of Tangra
242
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Posted - 2014.04.24 08:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
The upcoming update appears to be focusing on trying to get industry into null sec. However there is one question, if it becomes more profitable to do industry in null sec, will the alliances be interested in letting in industrial corps?
Because as I stand one the biggest problems for null sec industry isn't the lack of incentives or supply problems, its the lack of interest from alliances in industry corps beyond supercap builders. If you look at the industry development index you can see that most mining is taking place in renter territory
Now I get why alliances don't really like industry corps, they see them as non-pvp's who basically leech on them for access to null while don't providing much. But the question we have to ask is if the update changes the economic relationship between null and high, will we see a change in attitudes? |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1347
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Posted - 2014.04.24 08:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
Here is a secret:
Nobody cares about your space hobby. Bring bros to fleets and you will never be bothered about doing industry.
Just don't expect anyone to be considerate about your towers, slots, minerals and other stuff. If the **** hits the fan an alliance needs to react. It's the same with ratters, they just have lighter bags to pack. GRRR Goons |
Cydelle Abraham
Aurora Armaments Gentlemen's Agreement
39
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Posted - 2014.04.24 09:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
This may be an interesting read for you:
http://thethirdn.wordpress.com/2014/04/23/data-based-contempt/ |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1470
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 09:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alliances will do whatever they want to achieve their goals. If that doesn't include industry corps then it won't.
You seem to be blaming alliances for doing what is in their best interests as an outcome of the rules and item demand of nullsec. You can't do T2 or T3 production in null as easily as empire yet non-sov warfare uses mostly T2/T3 items. Cap production is in demand because of sov warfare and the ability to do it with base minerals. Logistics is far easier and less time to do than all industry and isk has a 0m3 volume. Ratting and buying what you need semi-instantly seems a lot easier than waiting a week for someone to build a T2 cruiser for you.
So if you were an alliance that had these demands, what would kind of corp would you want to defend when sov is contested? When you look in alliance chat and see 300 members as a cap fleet jumps in your system to bash your structures, who do you want to respond? 300 ratters/pvpers or a bunch of multi-box miners?
Alliances are only doing what is in their best interests. If those interests change after the industry changes, then they will react in the same way - what's best for them. You should figure out what those interests are and provide it, then you'll get an invite. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
The BlackPrince
Inner Visions Of Sound Mind
13
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Posted - 2014.04.24 10:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
The problem as I see it is that there isn't any reason for a null-sec alliance to get in a industry corporation, if by industry you mean a corporation that only do industry and nothing else. Null-sec alliances wants people whos willing to help defend their space from sov-warfare or just roaming gangs preventing other activites from taking place within the system.
If a industry corporation only wants the good things out of being in a null-sec system but don't bother to slow ops are they no better than the lone corporation memeber who does nothing but PvE all day and refuses to take part in anything the alliance does.
Currently building carriers and rorquals. Contact me for a cheap capital ship. |
Coffee Rocks
Thrall Nation Brave Collective
162
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Posted - 2014.04.24 11:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote: Now I get why alliances don't really like industry corps, they see them as non-pvp's who basically leech on them for access to null while don't providing much. But the question we have to ask is if the update changes the economic relationship between null and high, will we see a change in attitudes?
Frankly, I don't see a need to change the attitude. The current attitude is "As an alliance, we don't click "invite to join alliance" to every 30 man indy corp that wants to join". If you think individual spais getting in is a problem....
If you want to join a large alliance, you need the following: ACTIVE members who contribute to strategic and combat fleet ops, across several TZ's; at least 50+ ACTIVE members minimum, usually more; ability to show you fit with the alliance personality; maybe even a "niche" that makes you special.
The last one, the "niche" - why can't you just all roll into an existing corp instead of bringing your corp in separate? If you have a specific set of skills as a corp that is lacking in the alliance, you have more to bring to the table. T3 producer? Moon reaction chain in place? 50% of members help crank out Capitals? etc?
For the record, we're an "indy corp". Several Brave corps are. But PVP is fun, and for the indy corps to maintain access to needed, lucrative resources we must spend as much time protecting/taking said resources as much as we do our Indy trade. thecoffeerocks.blogspot.com Twitter: @thecoffeerocks |-áSteam: CoffeeRocks | thecoffeerocks.blogspot.com https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=327221 |
Silvetica Dian
Manson Family Advent of Fate
981
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Posted - 2014.04.24 12:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
From my alliance standpoint: Half of us have manufacturing alts or mining alts. People make isk with these or fuel for towers etc. others do PI or ratting or exploration or incursions. We don't care how people make isk. If you don't show up to pvp with us then you are not useful (we have a few tower maintenance indie guys that don't pvp but that is a very trusted position and requires knowing the leadership for years and your firstborn as a hostage.) If you are not useful you will be kicked. PVP or gtfo. If you just want to make isk then renting / provi are your options for null.
TL:DR non pvpers are freeloaders and not wanted. We already have systems to replace losses. People not willing to fight for what the alliance has are not needed. Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85 |
Aura Arcane
SpyWorks
7
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Posted - 2014.04.24 14:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Silvetica Dian wrote:From my alliance standpoint: Half of us have manufacturing alts or mining alts. People make isk with these or fuel for towers etc. others do PI or ratting or exploration or incursions. We don't care how people make isk. If you don't show up to pvp with us then you are not useful (we have a few tower maintenance indie guys that don't pvp but that is a very trusted position and requires knowing the leadership for years and your firstborn as a hostage.) If you are not useful you will be kicked. PVP or gtfo. If you just want to make isk then renting / provi are your options for null.
TL:DR non pvpers are freeloaders and not wanted. We already have systems to replace losses. People not willing to fight for what the alliance has are not needed.
Obviously CCP doesn't think this way since they're buffing nullsec industry.
So really what is the point of buffing nullsec industry if its only supercaps etc that nullsec alliances want ?
Maybe a DEV might try explaining this contradiction that seems to exist with CCP's development plans for nullsec and what nullsec alliances want. And hopefully buff highsec industry as they should have done.
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Paul Otichoda
Mine Your 0wn Business Brothers of Tangra
242
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Posted - 2014.04.24 15:24:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aura Arcane wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:From my alliance standpoint: Half of us have manufacturing alts or mining alts. People make isk with these or fuel for towers etc. others do PI or ratting or exploration or incursions. We don't care how people make isk. If you don't show up to pvp with us then you are not useful (we have a few tower maintenance indie guys that don't pvp but that is a very trusted position and requires knowing the leadership for years and your firstborn as a hostage.) If you are not useful you will be kicked. PVP or gtfo. If you just want to make isk then renting / provi are your options for null.
TL:DR non pvpers are freeloaders and not wanted. We already have systems to replace losses. People not willing to fight for what the alliance has are not needed. Obviously CCP doesn't think this way since they're buffing nullsec industry. So really what is the point of buffing nullsec industry if its only supercaps etc that nullsec alliances want ? Maybe a DEV might try explaining this contradiction that seems to exist with CCP's development plans for nullsec and what nullsec alliances want. And hopefully buff highsec industry as they should have done.
This is the point I'm trying to get at, it seems like CCP is trying to get industrialists into null sec by working to undermine the ability to just ship it from Jita. But the obvious problem is the null sec alliances at present appear to be making no action to do this. And I do think the alliances' focus on high level constant pvp is one of the reasons why null sec is so empty. Not everyone wants to do it all the time.
I've found I like null sec, but I don't much like null sec war.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15210
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 15:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Aura Arcane wrote:Silvetica Dian wrote:From my alliance standpoint: Half of us have manufacturing alts or mining alts. People make isk with these or fuel for towers etc. others do PI or ratting or exploration or incursions. We don't care how people make isk. If you don't show up to pvp with us then you are not useful (we have a few tower maintenance indie guys that don't pvp but that is a very trusted position and requires knowing the leadership for years and your firstborn as a hostage.) If you are not useful you will be kicked. PVP or gtfo. If you just want to make isk then renting / provi are your options for null.
TL:DR non pvpers are freeloaders and not wanted. We already have systems to replace losses. People not willing to fight for what the alliance has are not needed. Obviously CCP doesn't think this way since they're buffing nullsec industry. So really what is the point of buffing nullsec industry if its only supercaps etc that nullsec alliances want ? Maybe a DEV might try explaining this contradiction that seems to exist with CCP's development plans for nullsec and what nullsec alliances want. And hopefully buff highsec industry as they should have done. This is the point I'm trying to get at, it seems like CCP is trying to get industrialists into null sec by working to undermine the ability to just ship it from Jita. But the obvious problem is the null sec alliances at present appear to be making no action to do this. And I do think the alliances' focus on high level constant pvp is one of the reasons why null sec is so empty. Not everyone wants to do it all the time. I've found I like null sec, but I don't much like null sec war.
No "effort" is being made at the moment because currently it's overwhelmingly more cost effective to simply import whatever we need direct from Jita. I can literally order complete fitted ships on our alliance form and have them delivered direct to staging point for Jita price +10%. Thus if we can't build what need need for Jita Price + 9% or less, then there's no point going to all the effort and making the large investments required. Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
147
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Posted - 2014.04.24 17:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
You can drag a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Just look at the first rebalancing of mining vessels. CCP tried to 'force' people to use all the mining vessels but new preferences arose from the changes. CCP want more people to go to low and null sec but if they don't want to do or the conditions aren't right that they don't have to go there. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15210
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 17:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:You can drag a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Just look at the first rebalancing of mining vessels. CCP tried to 'force' people to use all the mining vessels but new preferences arose from the changes. CCP want more people to go to low and null sec but if they don't want to do or the conditions aren't right that they don't have to go there.
Yeah it's almost as if conditions are being changed
Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15210
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 17:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:The upcoming update appears to be focusing on trying to get industry into null sec. However there is one question, if it becomes more profitable to do industry in null sec, will the alliances be interested in letting in industrial corps?
Because as I stand one the biggest problems for null sec industry isn't the lack of incentives or supply problems, its the lack of interest from alliances in industry corps beyond supercap builders. If you look at the industry development index you can see that most mining is taking place in renter territory
Now I get why alliances don't really like industry corps, they see them as non-pvp's who basically leech on them for access to null while don't providing much. But the question we have to ask is if the update changes the economic relationship between null and high, will we see a change in attitudes?
To answer the question as asked: probably not.
The thing is that many of the "PvPers" have their own industry alts. Currently those alts operate in hi-sec, where virtually all non-supercap industry takes place. Assuming that the changes CCP have proposed are sufficient to make 0.0 production worthwhile, then a large fraction of those alts will want to relocate to 0.0.
So the alliances have 2 choices:
1) Employ their finite facilities and resources to make their current active PvP playerbase ISK, ships & modules.
2) Open up those resources to people who will do exactly the same job, but who won't fight with their PvP mains and who will require defending due to their lack of PvP experience
Which would you choose? Can you think of any reason why an alliance would choose option 2? Why wouldn't that alliance use their resources to benefit their own members rather than allow them to people who simply want to profiteer off them and contribute nothing extra? Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15210
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Posted - 2014.04.24 17:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
In essence, the job of the industry corp is to show how they can make the alliance better off by allowing them to use those facilities than the alliance would be by using their own alts.
If there was some mechanism whereby players could become skilled at producing superior goods or could extract superior efficiencies from the resources, then maybe. (And I mean the players, not their characters - so that getting a production bonus and making better quality goods was actually a matter of player skill). Then there would be a meaningful place for production specialists in 0.0, just like there is a place for tackle specialists or dictor specialists or bomber specialists in fleets.
But at the moment, I can't see any reason, and that's the reason behind the traditional hostility of 0.0 alliances to "pure" industrialists. They're not just seen as "parasites"; they are parasites because they're intrinsically less capable of contributing to the wealth and survival of the alliance.
The experiment was tried over and over and many different groups and it always ended up the same way. Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1902
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 18:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: But at the moment, I can't see any reason, and that's the reason behind the traditional hostility of 0.0 alliances to "pure" industrialists. They're not just seen as "parasites"; they are parasites because they're intrinsically less capable of contributing to the wealth and survival of the alliance.
The experiment was tried over and over and many different groups and it always ended up the same way.
So then why do you nullie CSMers constantly pound on CCP for null buffs and high sec nerfs to industry when you know damn well you're not going to participate? Just get together and pound on CCP to end high sec, once and for all. You nullies should love that, no? Just biomass those carebear alts you never talk about and train up more peeveepee'ers... "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3509
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 18:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
CSM8 - January 2014 Summit Minutes wrote:Mynnna ended the meeting by insulting all industrial alliances and saying that they will never be more relevant than a PvP alliance who does industry as a hobby. Or it might be more delicately put that Mynnna made an accurate, evidence-based characterization of the historical relationship between purely industrial focused 0.0 groups and PvP focused groupsGǪ |
Tarikla
Projet Aurora
45
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Posted - 2014.04.24 18:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Malcanis said it perfectly. Industry dosen't even require a second account, you just throw some plex(es) at dual char training (depending on what you want to do in industry) and you're set.
Industry is all about clicfest and logistics, and nothing else. No skill, no presence needed, just having the goods and doing clicks. You spend more time on spreadsheet than in game.
The industry buff for null sec is NOT to make alliance hire pure industrialists. It's to end the whole "we are living in null but buy everything from jita because it's cheaper" nonsense. |
Paul Otichoda
Mine Your 0wn Business Brothers of Tangra
242
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 18:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tarikla wrote:Malcanis said it perfectly. Industry dosen't even require a second account, you just throw some plex(es) at dual char training (depending on what you want to do in industry) and you're set.
Industry is all about clicfest and logistics, and nothing else. No skill, no presence needed, just having the goods and doing clicks. You spend more time on spreadsheet than in game.
The industry buff for null sec is NOT to make alliance hire pure industrialists. It's to end the whole "we are living in null but buy everything from jita because it's cheaper" nonsense.
You will need people to mine the minerals to fund that supply line you realise? |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1470
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 18:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
As long as it is easier to ship everything you need from Jita, no major nullsec alliance will take you on outside of renting. Minerals included. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15210
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 19:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:Malcanis wrote: But at the moment, I can't see any reason, and that's the reason behind the traditional hostility of 0.0 alliances to "pure" industrialists. They're not just seen as "parasites"; they are parasites because they're intrinsically less capable of contributing to the wealth and survival of the alliance.
The experiment was tried over and over and many different groups and it always ended up the same way.
So then why do you nullie CSMers constantly pound on CCP for null buffs and high sec nerfs to industry when you know damn well you're not going to participate? Just get together and pound on CCP to end high sec, once and for all. You nullies should love that, no? Just biomass those carebear alts you never talk about and train up more peeveepee'ers...
So that we can conduct our industrial activity in our space on equal terms to the hi-sec industrialists. Is that so had to understand?
After all, why should we be forced to operate those alts in hi-sec as we are at present? Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15210
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Posted - 2014.04.24 19:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Tarikla wrote:Malcanis said it perfectly. Industry dosen't even require a second account, you just throw some plex(es) at dual char training (depending on what you want to do in industry) and you're set.
Industry is all about clicfest and logistics, and nothing else. No skill, no presence needed, just having the goods and doing clicks. You spend more time on spreadsheet than in game.
The industry buff for null sec is NOT to make alliance hire pure industrialists. It's to end the whole "we are living in null but buy everything from jita because it's cheaper" nonsense. You will need people to mine the minerals to fund that supply line you realise?
Yes indeed. The very first, most essential step to low end minerals being mined in 0.0 is consistent local demand. Here is my CSM9 endorsement list - vote for diversity of expertise : Ali Aras-á Mangala Solaris-á Mike Azariah-á Steve Ronuken James Arget-á Xander Phoena-á Sugar Kyle-á corbexx-á mynnna-á progodlegend-á Psychotic Monk-á Jayne Fillion
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Tarikla
Projet Aurora
46
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Posted - 2014.04.24 19:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Tarikla wrote:Malcanis said it perfectly. Industry dosen't even require a second account, you just throw some plex(es) at dual char training (depending on what you want to do in industry) and you're set.
Industry is all about clicfest and logistics, and nothing else. No skill, no presence needed, just having the goods and doing clicks. You spend more time on spreadsheet than in game.
The industry buff for null sec is NOT to make alliance hire pure industrialists. It's to end the whole "we are living in null but buy everything from jita because it's cheaper" nonsense. You will need people to mine the minerals to fund that supply line you realise?
Get compressed ore from jita/Get ore from jita and compress them yourself
Haul those ore in Null, reprocess them in Minmatar outpost, do industry in null.
Mining in High-Sec is actually now more profitable than to mine in null sec when you factor everything in the equation, from hauling issues, need for escort, neutral interference, etc. The only miners in null sec are the ones who keeps those few systems with high industry index.
Yeah, Null-sec also need a buff for mining. But it's already better if the situation shift from "do everything in High and haul it in null" to "Get ore in High and do everything else in null"
Disclaimer : I'm not a nullbear, i've never been in a null alliance to be honest. But i think outpost who cost dozens of billions of ISK should have an advantage over free to dock stations. |
Rapscallion Jones
Omnibus Solutions
6
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Posted - 2014.04.24 19:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
It seems to me that CCP does not understand the central reason Indy corps remain in high sec. Where are the markets for goods in null sec? They don't exist and never will.
The reality is industry will always reside in high sec because of logistics and markets. No carrot is ever going to make industrialists move to null and no stick is big enough to drive them away from easy access to there customers. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
394
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 19:29:00 -
[24] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Tarikla wrote:The industry buff for null sec is NOT to make alliance hire pure industrialists. It's to end the whole "we are living in null but buy everything from jita because it's cheaper" nonsense. You will need people to mine the minerals to fund that supply line you realise? Minerals, even large volumes of minerals, can be moved. The current compression situation proves that. The future compression situation will not remove that. The ore can come from anywhere.
The value of 0.0 ore is the ability to support rental arrangements and "pets". This is where the industrial specialists belong and this is where the summer changes will incentivise them to be.
Part time industrialists will be welcomed in PvP alliances, as always. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
394
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 19:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Rapscallion Jones wrote:It seems to me that CCP does not understand the central reason Indy corps remain in high sec. I don't think CCP is trying to move industrial corps in to 0.0. I think they are trying to move some portion of the industrial activity in to 0.0.
That industrial activity may well be performed by the same people that are already living in 0.0. It doesn't need to come from the current hi-sec population, who will still have plenty of reasons to stay in hi-sec.
It's not a matter of taking away a player's current playstyle and forcing them in to a new one. It's about providing all players with many worthwhile options and letting them find what works for them. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7039
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 20:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
you only need industrial corps once you run out of pvpers who do industry as a hobby in pvp corps
we'll see if we ever hit that point Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1457
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 22:12:00 -
[27] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:Tarikla wrote:Malcanis said it perfectly. Industry dosen't even require a second account, you just throw some plex(es) at dual char training (depending on what you want to do in industry) and you're set.
Industry is all about clicfest and logistics, and nothing else. No skill, no presence needed, just having the goods and doing clicks. You spend more time on spreadsheet than in game.
The industry buff for null sec is NOT to make alliance hire pure industrialists. It's to end the whole "we are living in null but buy everything from jita because it's cheaper" nonsense. You will need people to mine the minerals to fund that supply line you realise? this will be next part of buffing 0.0 sec 'industry' - removing of mining.... i predict some kind of 'moon mining' with minerals as result
Once it is done 0.0 sec alliances can fully dedicate themself to PvP using their alts to do 'industry'. The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1903
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:22:00 -
[28] - Quote
March rabbit wrote: this will be next part of buffing 0.0 sec 'industry' - removing of mining.... i predict some kind of 'moon mining' with minerals as result
Once it is done 0.0 sec alliances can fully dedicate themself to PvP using their alts to do 'industry'.
I predict a CCP program to "deliver" all needed minerals to any large alliance asking for them by Jove transport with fair market value automatically withdrawn from Alliance coffers monthly.
Which Alliances will then transport to high sec for quick sale in Jita.
Fair is fair, ya know... Elite peeveepee'ers can't be troubled with Industry. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1273
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Posted - 2014.04.25 06:55:00 -
[29] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
So that we can conduct our industrial activity in our space on equal terms to the hi-sec industrialists. Is that so had to understand?
After all, why should we be forced to operate those alts in hi-sec as we are at present?
The issue is that certain Null Sec blocs are pounding for far more than 'equal' terms. To list current situation. Refining - Currently Poor. At max skills, 2% disadvantage, but High Sec doesn't need max skills. Manufacturing - Pretty good per last buff. Can get hundreds of lines with 60% time discount on them in a single outpost. Mining - Vastly better. Can have Rorq buffs if wanted, more high quality (Dense) ore. Infinite ore in a single system due to Grav anomalies. All types of ore. High Sec must import high ends. Research. - Again pretty good per last buff, though I believe High sec has a slight edge here, but Null also leverage's a lot of those high sec research slots anyway. POS - Fuel discount so all POS activities are cheaper. T2 - Local Moon Goo productions. Vastly higher PI production.
The current player Meta causes a lot of that stuff to get double handled, exported straight to Jita, then Null producers have to import it back from Jita, but that is player meta, not a forced game mechanic.
So out of that list, Null certainly needs equal refining. But instead it has gone something like 900% in the opposite direction to an 18% advantage on refining, while having better (& infinite) ore & faster mining from superior boosts to start with which is already an advantage. If the current 2% disadvantage at max skills Null has is too much for them to complete using local production, the 18% the other way is vast amounts more, therefore even more unfair. Null having some more research capability, meh, no big deal either way really. Invention I don't do enough of to know how common slots are, but I know I normally see empty invention slots.
It's entirely fair that High Sec need to bother with good refining skills, that bit I'm totally on board with. But Null does not need the improved refine rates above high. People have already presented maths showing it will be profitable to export compressed ore to null, refine it and jump it back to high sec compared to refining in high. That's just silly. There is no way high sec can compete with that kind of price imbalance, and you would be screaming outright murder if the advantage was the other way around. |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
HIFI INDUSTRIAL The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2014.04.25 08:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Paul Otichoda wrote:... its the lack of interest from alliances in industry corps beyond supercap builders...
...will we see a change in attitudes?... With moons and renting, as well as easy access to manufactured goods in Highsec; there really doesn't seem to be need for Alliances to have Industrial Corps.
It would take some major changes in the sand box to alter that.
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