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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
840
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Omen's recent blog on player owned customs offices raised quite a bit of attention and now he has an update for you on some changes he and his team have made for the Winter Expansion, based on your feedback.
The blog can be found here, and as always...leave your feedback right here. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
32
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet.
You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
32
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Two step wrote:I like this change. Do the interbus offices just blow up? Do they have the same HP as regular offices?
Yes and yes. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
32
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Salpun wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote:Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet. You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied. Does a message get sent when that number gets changes or is it locked in when the POCO gets built.
No message and the owner can change it at any time. You can always check it before you export but if they lock you out or drive up the tax rate then that's really a diplomatic issue more than a notification issue. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
33
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Salpun wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Salpun wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote:Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet. You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied. Does a message get sent when that number gets changes or is it locked in when the POCO gets built. No message and the owner can change it at any time. You can always check it before you export but if they lock you out or drive up the tax rate then that's really a diplomatic issue more than a notification issue. Will those rates show on the master export panal if so no problem but if some one has to right click everytime to check thats going to make for some very annoyed people.
Yes as well as the total cost. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
58
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Here are some replies to topics raised:
"People will grief the Interbus COs" That is quite probable, even with this change of deployment, our guiding light is that EVE is player driven. This way the transition between NPC owned and Player owned will be smoother. It's no silver bullet and balancing between player driven and player convenience is very difficult. Our hope remain that you, the player will organize and sort out the supply and demand of PI goods and the availability of Customs Offices. If that does not happen, and there is a measurable decline in lowsec or PI activity then we will act. How we act will be decided if that event occurs, but we will not simply let lowsec die. We strive to invigorate lowsec, not just with this feature but for the long run. You may disagree that this feature will accomplish that, but that is never the less one of our goals and we will monitor how it pans out.
"Do you think more people will do PI?" No, as many have pointed out the PI gameplay in itself is far from perfect and we are absolutely not trying to make people do PI. The player owned customs offices are meant to increase meaningful space conflict and the verisimilitude of the EVE universe. Actual improvements to PI is an entirely different topic. Having said that, we are hoping for activity to stay somewhat the same.
"Did you have a clue the prices went up based on the previous blog?" Yes - absolutely and that was expected. We also fully expect the prices of PI goods to be unstable while the market adapts. The higher prices are in fact essential to drive motivation to operate Customs Offices. In the end, we believe the prices of for instance POS fuel will stabilize as we have seen with nearly all other player driven commodities in EVE.
"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread" We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
33
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Salpun wrote:WH PI was not addressed in the blog directly. All customs offices will remain until destroyed correct?
Yes any existing NPC customs offices that are on TQ when this update lands will remain until they are destroyed. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
60
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Salpun wrote:WH PI was not addressed in the blog directly. All customs offices will remain until destroyed correct?
yes
regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
60
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Zeimanov Kalzumaan wrote:Great work CCP - I'm starting to get quite concerned about this patch - has there been some sort of invasion of the body snatchers, everything is too perfect and it's making me suspicious.
Just to check - will the Interbus customs offices have a reinforcement cycle? if so will it be random or will they be able to be destroyed straight off the bat?
Thank you! No body snatchers as far as I am aware.
The Interbus corporation is far too incompetent to install reinforcement so no, they don't go into reinforced. Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
33
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Posted - 2011.11.15 14:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hiram Alexander wrote:Hi, I haven't gone through all the replies here yet, though I will in a minute... I just wanted to ask a short (silly?) question, for a bit of clarification...
Q --- Does the tax rate setting for 'Neutral' standings also work properly; so that it acts as the tax rate for 'No standings'...?
Yes, if you have no standing set then you get the neutral value. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
41
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Posted - 2011.11.19 02:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:A question for any devs that might still be reading this thread. Are you watching the test server feedback forum for the bugs and problems people are reporting? Can you acknowledge or comment on them? Examples so far:
- Customs offices can be anchored inside POS force fields or right on a station undock as long as the distance to the planet is small enough.
- Drones ignore orders to attack customs offices.
- Customs offices have extremely small (100m) sig radius, so any missiles larger than heavies don't apply full damage.
- Taxes for P0 items are larger than P1, and both are very different from the expected values.
Keep in mind, this is what people found despite all the obstacles to acquire a gantry on Sisi. Who knows what will actually surface once everyone is using them on TQ.
Not sure about the tax, I'd have to check with design on that, but the rest of those have already been fixed this week.
I personally quite liked the CO in the POS setup, emergent and cool but unfortunately has the potential to break things so you won't be seeing that on TQ. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
46
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Posted - 2011.11.26 14:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Interbus COs on Sisi give killmails, but the damage on them is 0.
I'm not sure what's the point of those mails. NPCs have never given killmails before. Is this intended? I suspect any kb will give them a zero value anyway, but it's a bit silly to have them.
Yep that's a known bug, it probably won't make the cut for the initial crucible rollout but should be fixed shortly after. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
48
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Posted - 2011.11.26 15:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote:A somewhat more arcane request:
Could we please get some good story background on the Interbus customs offices? My alliance has been discussing whether we want to shoot down Interbus COs (they're neutral, why would we?), and even whether we consider others shooting Interbus COs as piracy (they're shooting corp property of a peaceful entity, so yes; CONCORD doesn't care at all, so no?)
It's a lovely discussion, but there's awfully little backstory on the issue, so it's not easy to actually discuss the ethical ramifications. *Some* background would be nice :-)
I've read a draft from an upcoming chronicle about this, it is awesome.
From a game mechanics point of view, you wont take a security status hit for shooting the Interbus ones. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
1107
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Posted - 2011.12.01 17:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.
The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.
With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.
By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.
For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
60
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Our apologies for not being more prompt with this message, the base prices were changed late in the piece after reviewing a lot of feedback. Still, the information is available now and we are happy with the current course so it is in your hands to see what you can do with it. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
1134
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Posted - 2011.12.02 11:59:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hey guys.
Some of you have rightly pointed out that this last tax rate change should have been better communicated and I just want to clear that part up. We did have a plan to communicate it properly and the Game Designers had the text ready, but then the ball got dropped between us in the middle of the messaging storm prior to launch. I guess that one's on me.
I know that "I was totally gonna" doesn't make up for not doing something, but I want to extend my apologies for any inconvenience and confusion this caused.
The designers will probably jump in and take some questions on the mechanics soon. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
77
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Posted - 2011.12.02 12:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information.
We are not the GÇ£old CCPGÇ¥ that try to trick you, IGÇÖd argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now.
Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price.
P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market) P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market) P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market) P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market) P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market)
The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like GÇ£no taxGÇ¥ - > GÇ£taxGÇ¥.
It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid.
One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog here.
The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.
I will continue to answer your questions in this thread. Regards CCP Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
65
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Posted - 2011.12.02 12:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Both of these changes were made after the second dev blog.
The exact anchoring restrictions are on the wiki page and I highly recommend players who are setting up their own customs office have a read through the information there.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
Also the construction at Amarr outposts bug has been fixed internally and will be deployed to TQ early next week. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
79
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Posted - 2011.12.02 13:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jade Nexia wrote:"CCP Omen" wrote: Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information.
We are not the GÇ£old CCPGÇ¥ that try to trick you, IGÇÖd argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now.
Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price.
P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market) P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market) P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market) P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market) P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market)
The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like GÇ£no taxGÇ¥ - > GÇ£taxGÇ¥.
It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid.
One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog
The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.
I will continue to answer your questions in this thread. Regards CCP Omen
Dear Omen. You did pick as taxation base most expensive PI producs and bad time, after announce of POCO prices hyperinflate. Did you moticed that 80% products are soled under 50% peice markup of your picked goods? Like Electrolytes? I' do my PI harvesting over 7 months and average price for electolytes was around 300 not 450. Not to mention other comodities like bacteria with average price around 80? That just for my part of P1 producs because I never was interested in higher PI producs, because is just pain in ass to operate PI, setup factory, route product, route materials to factory etc. there is no easy interface for PI. I think that will be target when you announced changes in PI, to simplify UI make it less clicky. Posibility to setup more factories per one click, automatic production routing like automatic feeding with resources to factory from launchpad. Posibility to use and move goods to Storage from Launchpad not by using expeditions, reuse of command center. ETC. PI need whole big rework, but you did pick up completely unnecessary thing like POCO. Please learn to listen, right?
It is entirely possible that the tax base has to be tuned after further investigation the same way as we re-balance other stuff. The foundation in market prices will however not likely change.
Regards Omen
Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
79
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Posted - 2011.12.02 13:51:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:The fact that you cannot retrieve and redeploy PI hardware is a major issue. POCO doesn't feel like an investment if you cannot take it down.
Compared to this, in POS reaction business all hardware that is used can be relocated and reused. You pay for the JF fuel and for the POS running costs, but relocation never means loss of production hardware.
Fix this for PI and I'm sure people are a lot more happy putting up ISKies for POCO hardware (and taking risks in low/null sec with command centers).
Also with POSes you can abandon the hardware "dead in space" for later restart, with PI you are limited by number of planets you can have command centers on, so you cannot abandon CCs/factories and set up elsewhere, only to return to the initial place at a later date.
I like this. What you can currently do is try and find a "buyer" and use the "Transfer ownership" function to transfer the ownership. Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
79
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Posted - 2011.12.02 13:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Omen,
I advocated and support the tax change, because otherwise the POCO feature would have been dead in the water. It was a very welcome reaction.
However, I think basing it on the november prices was a minor oversight. By then, prices had already spiked due to speculation caused by your own devblog. Because it was speculation, and not an actual market adjustment, it didn't affect all items equally.
The effect of this is minor, but it does unbalance how much it costs to export an item vs how it costs to export the materials to build it, for example.
Thank you, this is very constructive feedback that we will look into! Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
79
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Posted - 2011.12.02 13:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sarina Berghil wrote:@ CCP Omen
I don't disagree that the old taxes were extremely small, and few people seemed to complain at double tax rates. This is probably proof that they were way too low.
But did you take into account how often goods are taxed? I wouldn't know the numbers myself, but I can imagine P4 goods get taxed quite a few times during their life cycle.
A 10-17% tax rate seems massive for something that might get double-dipped by taxes several times over.
We did take that into account but if we did it successfully, only time will tell. There is a 50% discount to import that is a little hard to spot so that helps a bit. Secondly, we have done some simulations in excel and there are some interesting opportunities to optimize your PI setup to minimize the amount of import/exports nececarry. We beleive you will figure this out and perhaps even enjoy doing it.
What we also hope will happen is that cheap lowsec POCOs are used to assemble the most expensive parts and thereby spreading the risk between highsec and lowsec but that's just me speculating.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
79
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Posted - 2011.12.02 14:05:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jade Nexia wrote:I'm stick with my feel that CCP has no clue about PI and how they did setup planetary resources. I'm pure P1 producer who sell it to market. I now with 17% tax does pay daily 1mil per planet for export. I operate at rich planets in C1,C2 and C3 WH with direct connection into HigSec (static exists). I do operate with 9 characters on 45 planets each character is setup in own WH-space. I harvest each planet in WH-space no longer than 20 days, because planets goes depleted! Notice this planet get depleted after 20 days! Production per head goes from 300 under 200. Even I do move my extractor or rebuild whole site every 5 to 6 days I got planet depleted after 20 days. My skills in Planetology and Advanced Planetology are on level 5 and all 9 characters. I must leave WH and find another one WH with not used planets at least once per month. Per whole my harvesting period I would only pay up to 25 mil per planet when I do accept 17% Interbus Taxes. I have no reason to put up any POCO worth 200mil simply because I can't pack it up when I don't use planet anymore. 20 day WH cycle cost
- 300 mil inital cost
- 1bil exporting taxes
- ------------
- 1,3 bil ISK total
profit is 5 bil (from sale) - 1,3 bil (cost) = 3,7 bil. BTW this calculation include new taxes, I had same profit before new taxes as after taxes, because simply market prices goes up factoring new taxes. So I don't cry river I just pointing it up. My profit would be same meay be better, because a lot people really quit PI as may be I would too. setting up 45 PoCO would cost 9 bil, profit would be -5,3 bil I can't produce PI with all 9 characters at same 5 planets because then planets goes dry in one week at all. Nobody from CCP really did realize that, even most rich planets in WH space can't support harvetsing by more than single person per 20 days. If I mention harvesting I do mean real intensive drilling with 1 day 45 minutes cycle to archieve cycle per harvester 15 minutes with 10 heads and 10 basic factories to reprocess all harvested materials to P1 in 24 hours cycle. Planet goes dry after 20 days and I'm unable to find any spot to feed up 10 factories afterall. When my resource production fall under 50k raw materials/hour I must abandon planet. Resource regen is pure trues sec based so -1.0 planets have best resource regen and even these planets goes dry after 20 days. In 0.0 where average true sec are -0.4 is not possible even maintain setup with 10 factories and one harvester to keep these 10 factories up and running. If there would be POCO then that planet would be shared by more than 1 person and planet goes even dry sooner and is impossible to feed 10 factories with raw materials. Planet with POCO and harvested by more than one person runing multiple sites would not produce enough resources to generate enough profit to justify time hastle with PI. Not to mention it is true pain to operate (setup via) clicking everything on planet. It was and still remains only poor man "job" in EVE. To sum it up:
- Nobody did count factor that planet has limited resource regens, so more people using planet mean less profit for everyone. Implied more people operating on harvest planet doesn't mean faster POCO investment return.
- Only production planets having POCOs will pay up back POCO, but as I know one production planet need harvest P1 materials at least from 4 to 5 planets.
At end I have no problem with POCOs because I see that in my WH space these will not be replaced anytime soon. Anyway I stop my operations for now (abandoned all 45 planets) and sitting on my stockpile of P1 producst now worth around 20 bil and I'm sure it will be doubled may be trippled in next two weeks. Cheers CCP Omen, you really got back in old CCP track, we have always right. But customers vote with theirs legs, you should remember it. I will see if POCOs will get replaced in WH space or not. If POCOs get replaced or Interbus COs will get destroyed I will stop doing PI. I will not resub 4 accounts and will have only remaining 2 active with 60 to 80 bil buffer to play with it. I wouldn't loose only who will loose will be CCP, even I do buy PLEXes these plexes still someone did buy for real money from CCP. I don't expect that people in WH-space would like to share theirs planets with me. BTW DUST is just "hype", because who does play PS3 games would play it not more than few months. Good new game on PS3 come out to market every few months. As oposite EVE does exists since 2003 I never saw any kind of game on consoles to sold and be played so long. You shooting own legs with this aproach and changing maket focus on things called "hype".
We are very aware of where our paycheck come from. Making surgical incisions in EVE like the POCO is very stressful on us and we are closely monitoring the metrics how EVE is doing. It comes down to the fact that we feel the Customs Office was wrongly implemented to begin with and by redeeming that we will upset the customers that have gotten used to the old ways.
You may accuse us of many things, but not for not caring for EVE. She means everything to us and doing open heart surgery on her freaks us out! But we feel she won't survive without occasional course correction.
To your point with all the POCOs I would respond that you should only replace the InterBus POCO that is the bottleneck for your operation and centralize as much of your expensive operations there. This way, with only one or a few POCOs you can cut the overall cost of your network by a lot.
Cheers Omen
Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
79
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Posted - 2011.12.02 14:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Dario Kaelenter wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information. We are not the GÇ£old CCPGÇ¥ that try to trick you, IGÇÖd argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now. Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price. P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market) P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market) P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market) P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market) P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market) The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like GÇ£no taxGÇ¥ - > GÇ£taxGÇ¥. It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid. One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog here. The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved. I will continue to answer your questions in this thread. Regards CCP Omen Per my previous post basing the tax on market values still seems like a good move going forward tho I think the heart of the problem is the rate picked/calculated as the Market Rate in setting the new taxes. You unfortunately picked a point where prices had already been impacted on by the specter of this change and the PI Fuel Block change so had already reacted upwards a fair amount. Prior to these announcements Robotics had settled down below 50K isk a unit and Broadcast node around 900 K so again I feel it would have been more diligent to have opted for a quarterly average market value to pick as the base for the tax. Possibly also having the rate slowly increase to this new rate over the course of a week could have reduced the sudden shock factor !?
This is a good point that I will take up with the team. Technically it is not difficult to adjust the tariffs. I just want to re-iterate that if we adjust them, it will be to land at a more representative market value, not going back to pre Crucible levels.
Regards Omen
Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
80
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Posted - 2011.12.02 14:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nekopyat wrote:CCP Omen wrote: The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.
This cuts back to one of the long standing issues.. risk vs reward and the steep cutoff between high sec and low sec. I think if there were a more gradual path people would not be as unhappy with this, but for many players, esp solo ones or ones with older hardware, low sec isn't just risk, it is helplessness, and people do not like the feeling that they are not in control of their fate. This is why many people just don't go to low sec even when the carrots are increased,.. the jump in risk is so high that it negates the value. There just isn't enough middle ground. For instance, I am a solo player. I have tried corporations, but because of my schedule and home-life I simply can not be reliable for group activities. Just not going to happen, so I am never going to have a 'gang' to go take some lowsec with. I also have older hardware. There have been times where I jump or undock, and actually wake up in station before my screen has even loaded. Even when I can see what is going on, my UI generally does not respond very quickly. It is fine for NPCs since that is a slower activity, but players will generally insta-dead you. Now, I am ok with taking additional risk for additional profit, but can not easily do this real time risk. In theory this means setting up things like POSes since that is a slower risk BUT here we again run into a steep cutoff problem. POSes are massive investments with high operating costs, there is little room for 'small risk, small reward, you HAVE to invest a major risk in order to do anything. That is why I think it would have been nice if PI stuff, with its low costs, was attackable. 10-20M of PI I would be willing to risk because I can replace that. 200-400M of POS? Maybe pennies to some, but that is a huge thing for casual players. Even allowing the POCOs in high secs, wardecable, I think would have gone a long way here since a high sec acnorable structure to get that tax reduced (but still have the lower yield worlds) would be an excellent risk/reward tradeoff. I am really hoping that the planned stuff for smaller in space structures goes though since that might help bridge this.
Excellent feedback! Regards Omen
Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
85
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Posted - 2011.12.02 16:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:First, thank you for providing some insight into the mechanics and issues involved, including the temporary break down in communications. A few points, I'll keep it as brief as I can (I know, I know, not really my style but I'll try): 1: How often will tax rates be calculated/adjusted? Hopefully frequently, and automatically, based on local market prices over a reasonable period of time. 2: POCO being player owned in High Sec would be excellent, and would be a fine target during war declarations. I know this may be problematic considering fitting into DUST mechanics, but if possible I believe it would be worthwhile. Obviously, some may disagree, feedback would be in order. If they are made available, I think that it would be highly likely that High Sec Empires would limit how low the tax rate could be set. This would prevent the incentive to try your hand at low sec PI from dropping too low. 3: The initial outlay price of POCO's is a minor stumbling block for many solo/small corp PI producers. They want to participate but the initial outlay of ISK combined with the risk of losing it immediately is holding a large number of people back from participating. I realize that the price of POCO's is fairly arbitrary, and I'm sure a great deal of research went into it before hand, but personally I'd rather see POCO's going up and down all the time (and from a large number of PI users both large and small) because the costs are more manageable. They make a great target for smaller scale attackers (roaming gangs) dedicated enough to spend the time to take them out, but the people putting them up to begin with may need the level of financial risk lowered a bit for POCO deployment to be as widespread as we would all like. 4: Perhaps making it possible to place the equivalent of a "For Sale" sign in the POCO screen when you are interested in transferring ownership of an existing structure would facilitated transfers of POCO ownership among the smaller PI industrialists. Or some mechanic to list them on the market or in the contract system. If this were done it would also be nice to see how long the POCO has been in use at that location, to give you a sense of whether that particular one is a relatively "safe" investment.
We can't commit (right here, right now) to a particular update schedule for the tariffs. I can see the value in that and I will talk to the team but Can't promise anything right now.
Highsec will remain the NPC controlled for the time being, but it's a cool idea.
We have to balance the value in defending a POCO versus the barrier of getting involved. We will monitor this balance and make adjustments if it becomes apparent there is a skew.
Cheers Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
85
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Posted - 2011.12.02 16:17:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:disasteur wrote:CCP Omen wrote:(The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved. ) so making isk is ok as long as there a lot of pew pew in it? FYI trading is risk free to, only people who dont pay atention to it have a risk to buy the wrong things at the wrong time This. But also: No risk? NO RISK? NO RISK?CCP, what are you smoking? What about the risk associated with the transport of goods to market? Moving high-value goods out of null- and low-sec is filled with risk: Use a hauler or transport ship and get tackled on a gate. Poof, there goes all of your time managing planetary assets and planning. Use a jump freighter and talk about a jump in level of risk. Furthermore, high-sec hauler and freighter ganks happen frequently. No risk, my left nut!
Apologies, Highsec PI was the intended subject of that reply specifically. If you do PI in 0.0 you can probably get a 0% tax POCO which means your reward increased for your risk.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
270
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Posted - 2011.12.02 22:40:00 -
[28] - Quote
I can see a ton of good feedback in this thread, thank you so much!
Please keep the good feedback up, but also be aware that the devs are not inhuman machines, working 24 hours around the clock. To process your feedback and to generate some meaningful answers might take a bit. Don"t be discourage by that to post in a constructive way. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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