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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
26
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:28:00 -
[481] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:ZaBob wrote:You CERTAINLY did not communicate this factor up front. The second greatest thing about Wiki articles is that they have a history.
I do not see either the original dev blog, the revised dev blog or the patch notes directing anyone to the wiki article you seem to like brandishing about. Not until today that is.
What I do see is it repeatedly stated that the taxes were being doubled. That is it. |
Amon Sono
Perkone Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:30:00 -
[482] - Quote
I feel the new changes to PI will make null sec pi more interesting. However for those folks in low and high sec it is not so good. The changes make it so only large corps will be able to compete in low sec. What will happen is a drop off in players using this feature. PI in low and high sec was never a big isk maker to start with. Now many people who engage in PI have less of a reason to continue doing PI.
While I applaud CCP for its efforts at contunuing to improve the game this particular idea isn't the best. |
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
26
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:33:00 -
[483] - Quote
1) CCP getting heat over a controversial change forced on players 2) CCP Alts - errmmm - 'people who have never posted before' show support for CCP 3) CCP not that clever
Calorn Marthor wrote:Thanks CCP, that was actually a good change! (although initially propagated by a Goon ) I cried out very loud when I saw the new taxes. But thinking twice, POCOs would perfectly make NO sense with the old tax base. I already had my plans to completely ignore them, now I want to others to operate them. :-D And yes: PI-people will earn less. But, why should any toon with just 2m SP be able to pay for the account with PLEXes? (working only like 3 hours a month) PI profits were ridiculously high, everyone has to admit that. However, the change has some implications: Will PI move to wormholes? POCOs can be defended much easier there, low-class WHs have planets as rich as in nullsec and they are just one hop away from empire... Shouldn't the ressource distribution somehow be related to the wormhole class? (yes, it's a bit late for a change...)
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Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:37:00 -
[484] - Quote
I'm somewhat discouraged to hear the response from Omen through someone besides Omen.
If the idea was to reduce profits, yeah... the new POCOs will get that done. Nothing has been done to address the fundamental problems with the feature, which I'm not surprised about. I've been thinking about it and my problem with it really boils down to this:
Previously, there were many people ninja PI'ing in low-sec. They were able to do this because their CO's were static. After that, it's just about avoiding the pirates. The market has adjusted to the supply available (both in terms of volume of goods demanded/required, and the pricing of said goods). The PI products are integrated into everything in eve these days, besides ships (sort of). This is basically caused by PI goods being used to manufacture and fuel the Player Owned Starbases and sovereignty structures in null sec. Towers are so strongly tied to the price of everything that by increasing the price of PI goods, you are increasing the prices of all goods on the market today (and that's assuming demand doesn't change.) With a new expansion coming out, more players (presumably, based on previous active player counts) will cause a general increase in demand of goods driving prices even higher and exacerbating the problem.
All that being said, my problem is not with the price as determined by the market. Eve's capitalist system ensures that goods sell for what they are worth (in general). By big issue is the availability of PI materials (and correspondingly the volume of produced goods and services). Even in the interim, when stockpiles will be used to supply the needs of Eve (this is also common at the expansion boundaries), this problem will not be apparent. Once the stockpiles are used up, we only have the flow of PI goods from tier 1 producers.
This is the other part of the problem. Because of how PI has been implemented, many of the producers that bring materials into the system are no longer producing or doing so in high-sec to avoid the mess that low-sec will be. This is the volume drop that will cause the corresponding price hikes. Forget the inflation going on with the lack of ISK sinks that I initially thought could cause problems.
TL;DR
The people against this change all have a piece of this explanation for why we're against it. I'm trying to look at the big picture here based on my experience with the Eve player base. This isn't healthy for the game, and if any of this doesn't look familiar to you, dev's, you need to take another hard look at how you're implementing this feature. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
2
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:39:00 -
[485] - Quote
Which conflicts horribly with the original stated idea that PI was supposed to be a low barrier thing that any new player can jump into and make a profit...
Now, unless you have a gang of players in low/null, it is a waste of ISK.
We have two mutually exclusive elements here.... |
gargars
Cohesion Inc Beyond-Repair
23
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:41:00 -
[486] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:gargars wrote:So you now say this was deliberate, yet the insane tax increase was never mentioned to us in advance? Not in the blog certainly and not even in the patch notes. Both state:
"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes"
Where did you tell us in advance that by 'doubled' you mean 'multiplied by 100'?
Nowhere. And why not?
Hoping it would slide under the radar somehow with people giddy over the true good changes in the expansion? I think this is going to go very badly for you. Cool new things people get used to fast, fail things like this that effect people's 'wallet' directly tend to not fade away. They did tell us about it, that wiki article he linked was updated at least a week before the expansion went live. It is hardly CCP's fault that you couldn't understand the implications.
I get my information from the blogs. Neither the first or updated blog ever directed anyone to a wiki link for information. The first mention I see of the wiki article is from today. Regardless it is even vague as to there being a major change.
What I do see in the official blogs, is "The taxes you paid before can be translated into this new system, and that would equal 5% tax in a player owned customs office. So, if you set the tax to 5% you will pay the exact same as before."
The exact same, not 'multiply it by 100 because we are changing something else but not telling you about it in the blogs'.
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Rip Sword
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
0
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:42:00 -
[487] - Quote
Doesn't sound logical that a costums office gets a percentage of the value of the PI. To me they are providing a service of taking items to and from the planet for you. This fee should be based on volume M3 of the the Import and export. Going down is easier then going up so going up and charging more going up makes since. They had no part in working and making the product so taking a percentage of the value is not logical. If you import the PI from another source then your not stealing that planets resources and that planet's CO should not get a cut of the PI's value coming in either. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
2
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:45:00 -
[488] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote: Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Yeah.. every time they claim this, they end up adding in a feature that is really only useful to big alliances under some idea that it will encourage people to 'team up'.
Meanwhile the high-sec L4 isk faucet (which buys all those expensive toys found but not used in null) remains the same. Things that help null are left alone, thing that compete with null are nerfed... and of course low sec still ends up with the short end of both sticks. |
Organic
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:46:00 -
[489] - Quote
What irritates me incredibly is CCP continually changing the "rules" in an apparent attempt to force everything to nul sec.
I've been playing long enough to see hundreds of hours of work by players on everything from ship configuation, to learning skills (boy thats a sore one), to this recent PI customs office, all wasted by the latest "improvement". So you gave me back the learning skills I "wasted" back then. That didn't compensate me for the time I spent making sure I was learning the right thing, in the right sequence, at the right time to make it the best possible. My head goes back to the "P6" rule (Prior Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance)
Its very apparent that CCP wants everybody in nul sec in a corp. I'm flabbergasted to determine why. Eve was originally that every player could do whatever they wanted, either solo, as a group or as a corp, in Nul Sec or high sec. It was their choice.
Now I'm seeing more and more indications that Eve thinks EVERYBODY plays in a corp, everybody should go to Nul Sec and everybody should blindly accept whatever silliness comes out next. (I'm still wondering if there's a single player flying the over-hyped, and largely useless Echelon).
I remember years ago Eve gave everybody snowballs and snowball launchers....at least that was a bit of silliness that was fun.
There've been lots of comments about "doubling export fees" versus "100x export fees"....in either case, why did CCP let players spend hundreds of hours planning, replanning, reorganizing, reoptimizing their PI operations only to have the high sec operations become mostly useless? Just a few minutes ago, the taxes I paid exporting raw materials just made refining them (or doing anything else with them) a loosing operation.
I'm pounding my head on the desk trying to figure out why I spent so much effort making PI work right (the dammed production line was hard enough to figure out).
If you're going to include a dammed feature, think it through before you waste everybody's time by changing it. If you make the dammed feature.....stick with it! |
Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:48:00 -
[490] - Quote
Nekopyat wrote:Which conflicts horribly with the original stated idea that PI was supposed to be a low barrier thing that any new player can jump into and make a profit...
Now, unless you have a gang of players in low/null, it is a waste of ISK.
We have two mutually exclusive elements here....
The tax is your only tangible expense for extraction/production once the colony is set up, so as long as you're selling for more than the tax the only thing you're potentially 'wasting' is your time. |
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Xtover
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
5
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:48:00 -
[491] - Quote
SojournerRover wrote:Go to Null, or a Wormhole. Set whatever taxes you want and defend your property. This gives corporations more power. You figure it out.
Stop being a HS sec crying machine!
Rover (REDRUM) empty quoting. |
Long John Silver
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
19
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:52:00 -
[492] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote: stuff... So we end up with a situation where the biggest blob around can manufacture PI items for nothing and the small independent players/corps are screwed... more stuff.
Exactly.
Interesting thing is, prices in my region have already risen enough to offset the extra custom charges, so its not the PI bunnies who are losing out, its the end product users.
Lowsec POCO ownership aint gonna work, just too many griefers out there shooting for tears.
The only winners out of this revision are going to be those who own lots of nullsec in which to run a safe POCO infrastructure... oh look, that wouldn't be those big boys with a disproportionte influence in this game... would it?
*sigh*
One day, CCP will wake up to the fact that the bulk of their income comes from the relatively silent majority of players who are engaged in 'small enterprises', and start throwing us some fish too. Long John Silver | Pirate Alt-áand Forum Troll. |
Cobokk
Aristokratia
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:55:00 -
[493] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
You own this owns
That does not even makes sense you moron! About as much sense as changing the game mechanics so drastically in the midst of the game. PI is a F#^&@ S&*$&* Work and CCP made it consume way more time. Dont have the time to make a great arguement as it won't help change the opinionated mind that control the game already but do need to point out -
It is a sandbox? And the players control the destiny. Then why the F&$%# is CCP making so many changes to pre-established mechanics?
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Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
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Posted - 2011.12.01 19:56:00 -
[494] - Quote
Long John Silver wrote:One day, CCP will wake up to the fact that the bulk of their income comes from the relatively silent majority of players who are engaged in 'small enterprises', and start throwing us some fish too.
What do you think the whole PI system is?
It has always been, and continues to be, a great way to make money for 'small enterprise' people. |
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:58:00 -
[495] - Quote
Dalketh wrote:1) CCP getting heat over a controversial change forced on players 2) CCP Alts - errmmm - 'people who have never posted before' show support for CCP 3) CCP not that clever Calorn Marthor wrote:Thanks CCP, that was actually a good change! (although initially propagated by a Goon ) I cried out very loud when I saw the new taxes. But thinking twice, POCOs would perfectly make NO sense with the old tax base. I already had my plans to completely ignore them, now I want to others to operate them. :-D And yes: PI-people will earn less. But, why should any toon with just 2m SP be able to pay for the account with PLEXes? (working only like 3 hours a month) PI profits were ridiculously high, everyone has to admit that. However, the change has some implications: Will PI move to wormholes? POCOs can be defended much easier there, low-class WHs have planets as rich as in nullsec and they are just one hop away from empire... Shouldn't the ressource distribution somehow be related to the wormhole class? (yes, it's a bit late for a change...)
Hey, I am NO CCP alt. !!! 11
And please... Think about it again! A POCO costs like 150m ISK Try to figure out how long it would have taken to get those 150m back with the old taxes. The answer is: years. (unless you have dozens of colonies on the same planet)
Maybe now there will be a new business: POCO holder. Any strong Lowsec or NullSec entity that is close to HighSec can operate and defend these things. PI-toons from HighSec will come there and pay taxes. 100% afk money. You just have to set an attractive tax rate and defend the POCO. |
Jita Alt666
605
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:59:00 -
[496] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:
Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.
Smaller Corps - Yes Solo Players - No
Eve is multiplayer
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
45
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:02:00 -
[497] - Quote
Remember: CCP has an agenda called DUST 514. Planetary Interaction is a significant part of that agenda and whatever changes CCP institutes are [theoretically] intended to increase DUST's financial success.
Stated another way, PI design changes are intended to benefit CCP's RL bottom line down the road. Anything else is irrelevant to CCP's business interests.
As I have written before, CCP did an excellent job engineering EVE subscribers' dependency upon PI materials. Now we must assess if we want to be part of CCP's grand plan to integrate EVE and DUST where the sandbox becomes less free-for-all and far more scripted by CCP's business model and revenue requirements. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Jita Alt666
605
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:02:00 -
[498] - Quote
Dalketh wrote: 1) CCP getting heat over a controversial change forced on players 2) CCP Alts - errmmm - 'people who have never posted before' show support for CCP 3) CCP not that clever
1) Dalketh gets hot over a controversial change 2) Dalketh believes everyone who does not support his world view is paid to think they way they do 3) Dalketh not that clever |
Long John Silver
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
19
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:04:00 -
[499] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:Long John Silver wrote:One day, CCP will wake up to the fact that the bulk of their income comes from the relatively silent majority of players who are engaged in 'small enterprises', and start throwing us some fish too. What do you think the whole PI system is? It has always been, and continues to be, a great way to make money for 'small enterprise' people.
Yes, it WAS. And yes, we'll still be able to make a bit of isk out of it, but not as much as you guys now. Cos now it's gonna be yet another isk making machine for null alliances like you Goonies who are the only ones who will be able to make POCO work profitably: ie: undercutting everyone else. Long John Silver | Pirate Alt-áand Forum Troll. |
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:11:00 -
[500] - Quote
Organic wrote: There've been lots of comments about "doubling export fees" versus "100x export fees"....in either case, why did CCP let players spend hundreds of hours planning, replanning, reorganizing, reoptimizing their PI operations only to have the high sec operations become mostly useless? Just a few minutes ago, the taxes I paid exporting raw materials just made refining them (or doing anything else with them) a loosing operation.
I'm pounding my head on the desk trying to figure out why I spent so much effort making PI work right (the dammed production line was hard enough to figure out).
Well. I COULD post my layout that does generate a lot of profit (15% less than before the tax change, but 85% of a hell lot is still a lot). But... I will not. It's not that clever since everyone will copy it and throw me out of the market. But if you are so desperate you think about quitting EVE, you may contact me ingame. If you pay me some ISKies, I'll teach you how you can still get rich with PI (15% less rich, but still rich).
Organic wrote: If you're going to include a dammed feature, think it through before you waste everybody's time by changing it. If you make the dammed feature.....stick with it!
Does that include undoing all the balance changes that came with Crucible?
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Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:11:00 -
[501] - Quote
Long John Silver wrote:Rek Esket wrote:Long John Silver wrote:One day, CCP will wake up to the fact that the bulk of their income comes from the relatively silent majority of players who are engaged in 'small enterprises', and start throwing us some fish too. What do you think the whole PI system is? It has always been, and continues to be, a great way to make money for 'small enterprise' people. Yes, it WAS. And yes, we'll still be able to make a bit of isk out of it, but not as much as you guys now. Cos now it's gonna be yet another isk making machine for null alliances like you Goonies who are the only ones who will be able to make POCO work profitably: ie: undercutting everyone else.
It's hardly worth the time and effort to produce in nullsec and export to Jita, which by itself has its own isk investment, if I'm just going to price under your production cost.
I'll personally stick to high volume markets and just match your prices. |
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:12:00 -
[502] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:Long John Silver wrote:One day, CCP will wake up to the fact that the bulk of their income comes from the relatively silent majority of players who are engaged in 'small enterprises', and start throwing us some fish too. What do you think the whole PI system is?
Think you meant to use the word 'WAS' there sparky. |
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:19:00 -
[503] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:So basically you haven't altered your plans from the first dev blog when that **** Dev said that us "little guys" should just use Hi sec planets!
The high tax rates have nothing to do with profit margins, the profit margins will remain the same, it will be a % of the cost of production the same as it is now you ****
The tax rates in 0.0 and low sec are designed to **** off the larger corps and alliances who can afford to install and protect a POCO, so they blow up the high tax interbus one and install their own.
Obviously they will charge themselves nothing and anybody else will be charged whatever they think best, i would imagine same as it is at interbus, any higher and ppl will go elsewhere and there is no point charging less.
So we end up with a situation where the biggest blob around can manufacture PI items for nothing and the small independent players/corps are screwed.
I do.......erm...... did PI in 0.0 NPC space, and think after all the hassle that entails i had the same right to the resources as anybody else in those systems, it seems you at CCP think different.
Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.
Scarlet ninja, I really like your name, but your argument there is completely pointless. They are not denying you access to the feature, they are just stopping you from making a 99% profit with no risk.
And as far as features that you do not have access to as a single player, sovereignty(it requires an alliance to hold.), Player owned station, pos and much more. All of these require corporation or alliance. Now you could be like some players who were recently evicted from Providence. And have your own corporation and alliance. Containing just you. But good luck not being pushed out. CCP is not denying you access to these features, other players are. This game is PVP/risk versus reward based. If you don't like it find a new game. Otherwise join the fun and move out from under the skirt of Concord.
That brings me to another point. Concord is a feature that only exists in high sec. {Sarcastic} That's not fair, I want to be able to pay Concord to defend my sov it would ensure I never lose it. {/Sarcastic}
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Peich Prime
1st Airborne Division
1
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:19:00 -
[504] - Quote
[/quote]
Hey, I am NO CCP alt. !!! 11
And please... Think about it again! A POCO costs like 150m ISK Try to figure out how long it would have taken to get those 150m back with the old taxes. The answer is: years. (unless you have dozens of colonies on the same planet)
Maybe now there will be a new business: POCO holder. Any strong Lowsec or NullSec entity that is close to HighSec can operate and defend these things. PI-toons from HighSec will come there and pay taxes. 100% afk money. You just have to set an attractive tax rate and defend the POCO.[/quote]
Well It seems you're not very good at maths...
A POCO costs 255-275 Million each.
Actual prices from Amarr:
Custom Office gantry : 175M-195M 8x Broadcast Node 3M x 8 = 24 M 8x Recursive Computing Module 2.5M x 8 = 20 M 8x Self-harmonizing Power core 1.87M x8 = 14.96 M 8x Wetware Mainframe 2.5Mx8 = 20 M
1x POCO = 254.96-274.96M
Now say you use 6 planets to produce your goods... 254.96-274.96M x 6 = 1529.76M - 1649.76M
So if you are part of a small corporation you need like 3 month to amortize each one of the POCOS. 18 Month to amortize the whole set. And start to pray NOT to get your POCOs blown apart.
I think this is intended to make more people buy PLEX with real cash rather than using ISK... The PLEX prices rocketing through the roof and the ways to earn ISK going down the flush.... 2 + 2
Well I've just suspended my subscription in my second account. I'm not paying anymore for this. |
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:20:00 -
[505] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:I'm somewhat discouraged to hear the response from Omen through someone besides Omen.
If the idea was to reduce profits, yeah... the new POCOs will get that done. Nothing has been done to address the fundamental problems with the feature, which I'm not surprised about. I've been thinking about it and my problem with it really boils down to this:
Previously, there were many people ninja PI'ing in low-sec. They were able to do this because their CO's were static. After that, it's just about avoiding the pirates. The market has adjusted to the supply available (both in terms of volume of goods demanded/required, and the pricing of said goods). The PI products are integrated into everything in eve these days, besides ships (sort of). This is basically caused by PI goods being used to manufacture and fuel the Player Owned Starbases and sovereignty structures in null sec. Towers are so strongly tied to the price of everything that by increasing the price of PI goods, you are increasing the prices of all goods on the market today (and that's assuming demand doesn't change.) With a new expansion coming out, more players (presumably, based on previous active player counts) will cause a general increase in demand of goods driving prices even higher and exacerbating the problem.
All that being said, my problem is not with the price as determined by the market. Eve's capitalist system ensures that goods sell for what they are worth (in general). By big issue is the availability of PI materials (and correspondingly the volume of produced goods and services). Even in the interim, when stockpiles will be used to supply the needs of Eve (this is also common at the expansion boundaries), this problem will not be apparent. Once the stockpiles are used up, we only have the flow of PI goods from tier 1 producers.
This is the other part of the problem. Because of how PI has been implemented, many of the producers that bring materials into the system are no longer producing or doing so in high-sec to avoid the mess that low-sec will be. This is the volume drop that will cause the corresponding price hikes. Forget the inflation going on with the lack of ISK sinks that I initially thought could cause problems.
TL;DR
The people against this change all have a piece of this explanation for why we're against it. I'm trying to look at the big picture here based on my experience with the Eve player base. This isn't healthy for the game, and if any of this doesn't look familiar to you, dev's, you need to take another hard look at how you're implementing this feature.
Mikron Alexarr, I half agree with you, it is going to drive the prices up substantially. However changes happen. The anomaly nerff had a similar effect. Making it more dangerous and less profitable. In line with what it should've been. Because any alliance with any sort of intelligence network that players within that alliance could just move systems and continue on doing making money. With the change all the systems that could you make you any money were now easily camped by one or two clocky ships, almost 23 seven. It affected a lot of people people complained about it. But ultimately it was important to balance the risk versus reward and make the game better. This change is no different people are rioting because of the import export tax being 17% that is a lot I will agree but it is necessary to balance the game properly. There is absolutely no risk in high sec to your PI. You're protected by Concord, and dust is not yet so there's no way to blow up the planet infrastructure. So explain to me what the risk was more than 98% profit margin. And I will gladly change sides of this argument but I just don't see the risk.
Rip Sword wrote:Doesn't sound logical that a costums office gets a percentage of the value of the PI. To me they are providing a service of taking items to and from the planet for you. This fee should be based on volume M3 of the the Import and export. Going down is easier then going up so going up and charging more makes since. They had no part in working and making the product so taking a percentage of the value is not logical. If you import the PI from another source then your not stealing that planets resources and that planet's CO should not get a cut of the PI's value coming in either.
Are the duties on things you bring into the US from other countries based on their size? no. Are they based on what they are? yes and who decides the amount? the government? in this case the government either CCP or another player Corporation? I don't see your side of the argument please explain?
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
423
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:22:00 -
[506] - Quote
The tariffs change nothing except that now you have to pay attention to them instead of just pretending that they don't exist. Items that were still profitable to make before the change, will be profitable to make after the change. People making unprofitable items on factory planets, should stop before they hurt themselves. For factory worlds, smart players will figure out whether it is better to buy P2 to make P3, or buy P1 and turn that into P3 on a single planet. (It usually is, because you skip an import/export tariff on the intermediate result.)
Players who do PI harvest planets producing P1 and P2 are still making ISK, they just have to pay a bit higher tax. But PI prices also went up a bit on speculation, so instead of making 1M ISK/day in hi-sec, they're now able to make closer to 1.5M ISK/day in a hi-sec harvest world. Which will draw others to the well, to setup their own PI harvest colonies, increasing supply, and driving costs back down a bit. Nothing changed for the new player doing PI harvest worlds in hi-sec. Their colonies still pay off on 7-10 days after which they're making that 1M ISK/day (even after paying the tariff).
The people most at risk are the lone-wolf operators who attempt to operate in lo-sec without making connections / friends. But until their planet's CO gets blown up, nothing changes for them except that now they have to include the tariffs in their calculation. Why panic before the CO gets blown up? Unless you were doing PI wrong, you paid for your colony within the first two weeks of planting it.
Most of the w-space folks that I've talked to are looking forward to having a 10% profit margin over what hi-sec players get, and if they can export P3 out of their w-space hole, they'll have a 20-30% market advantage over those who operate solely in hi-sec. In short, they're adapting, taking risks, and will reap the rewards. Good for them.
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Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:35:00 -
[507] - Quote
Asmodes Reynolds wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:I'm somewhat discouraged to hear the response from Omen through someone besides Omen.
If the idea was to reduce profits, yeah... the new POCOs will get that done. Nothing has been done to address the fundamental problems with the feature, which I'm not surprised about. I've been thinking about it and my problem with it really boils down to this:
Previously, there were many people ninja PI'ing in low-sec. They were able to do this because their CO's were static. After that, it's just about avoiding the pirates. The market has adjusted to the supply available (both in terms of volume of goods demanded/required, and the pricing of said goods). The PI products are integrated into everything in eve these days, besides ships (sort of). This is basically caused by PI goods being used to manufacture and fuel the Player Owned Starbases and sovereignty structures in null sec. Towers are so strongly tied to the price of everything that by increasing the price of PI goods, you are increasing the prices of all goods on the market today (and that's assuming demand doesn't change.) With a new expansion coming out, more players (presumably, based on previous active player counts) will cause a general increase in demand of goods driving prices even higher and exacerbating the problem.
All that being said, my problem is not with the price as determined by the market. Eve's capitalist system ensures that goods sell for what they are worth (in general). By big issue is the availability of PI materials (and correspondingly the volume of produced goods and services). Even in the interim, when stockpiles will be used to supply the needs of Eve (this is also common at the expansion boundaries), this problem will not be apparent. Once the stockpiles are used up, we only have the flow of PI goods from tier 1 producers.
This is the other part of the problem. Because of how PI has been implemented, many of the producers that bring materials into the system are no longer producing or doing so in high-sec to avoid the mess that low-sec will be. This is the volume drop that will cause the corresponding price hikes. Forget the inflation going on with the lack of ISK sinks that I initially thought could cause problems.
TL;DR
The people against this change all have a piece of this explanation for why we're against it. I'm trying to look at the big picture here based on my experience with the Eve player base. This isn't healthy for the game, and if any of this doesn't look familiar to you, dev's, you need to take another hard look at how you're implementing this feature. Mikron Alexarr, I half agree with you, it is going to drive the prices up substantially. However changes happen. The anomaly nerff had a similar effect. Making it more dangerous and less profitable. In line with what it should've been. Because any alliance with any sort of intelligence network that players within that alliance could just move systems and continue on doing making money. With the change all the systems that could you make you any money were now easily camped by one or two clocky ships, almost 23 seven. It affected a lot of people people complained about it. But ultimately it was important to balance the risk versus reward and make the game better. This change is no different people are rioting because of the import export tax being 17% that is a lot I will agree but it is necessary to balance the game properly. There is absolutely no risk in high sec to your PI. You're protected by Concord, and dust is not yet so there's no way to blow up the planet infrastructure. So explain to me what the risk was more than 98% profit margin. And I will gladly change sides of this argument but I just don't see the risk. ...
The risk now has gone through the roof from the lone wolf's point of view in low sec. This will be a balance for high sec and null sec that I can agree should've happened sooner. However, the people doing low sec PI were a substantial part of the supply of the P1's that many people use. This increase is risk will cause producers to leave the market. The only thing I can see that would 'fix' the problem is if just as many producers reentered the market in low-sec. That way, you're not causing a huge imbalance with supply.
The fact is, corporations that can get together to 'do stuff', do not do PI (in general). It's mostly handled by alts. These alts and lone operators specifically will leave production and cause a severe supply shock. My concern is that the market simply will not be able to accommodate demand at a low enough price to not break other dependent industries.
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Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
105
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:38:00 -
[508] - Quote
I'd like a shiny youtube video to help me understand it better plz?
/popcorn |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:40:00 -
[509] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:I'd like a shiny youtube video to help me understand it better plz? /popcorn
Damn it, where's my whiteboard when I need it |
millsy4606
Combined Imperial Fleet JIHADASQUAD
0
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Posted - 2011.12.01 20:42:00 -
[510] - Quote
good, leave it as it is! this weekend im smashing pocos and setting up my own, then im gonna flood the market with fuel blocks. Pays to be a pirate in low sec, teach you high sec carebears to actually leave your comfort zone and come play. Isk isnt free and easy and it shouldnt be!
Well done CCP!
high fives all round
o/*\o
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