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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 28 post(s) |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
840
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Omen's recent blog on player owned customs offices raised quite a bit of attention and now he has an update for you on some changes he and his team have made for the Winter Expansion, based on your feedback.
The blog can be found here, and as always...leave your feedback right here. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |
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Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
23
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
First?
Edit:
No increase to planetary launch size? Can we now build PI structures in someone else's sov nullsec? What are the new NPC tax rates (Interbus) and commodity "base prices"?
Thx |
Kor'el Izia
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Will the new Offices have updated paperhandling capabilities, eliminating the wait for the lazy workers to finish their papers? |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
30
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sounds pretty nice for something brand new... Now just remains the final test that is actually being put to use on TQ. I love feature of transfering ownership - That would be epic on towers and other in-space structures too
Pinky |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
879
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
nice!
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Rommiee
Mercury Inc. Death Rhubarb
0
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
To quote from the latest blog GÇ£One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removedGÇ¥
What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?
The GÇ£NewGÇ¥ CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
541
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
So it went from a crappy introduction to... well, the main concern was ingored. Real frakking brilliant Nullabor... completely breaking PI while these damned things trickle into the market.
What in the hell are you people thinking?
There is absolutely NOTHING changed that shows even a hint of intelligence about how PI works or the game in general. This is the first massive disappointment I've had to date. No initial seeding, no delay between introducing blueprints and removing customs offices... idiotic to say the least. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
203
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hm. How does the "access with standings work", exactly? You can add someone to your contact list and have them "neutral", and you can have someone not on your contact list. This is different as far as, say, the overview is concerned. Does the customs office setting "allow access with standings" distinguish between those two? If so, can we set customs offices to allow access to "not on contact list" entities?
... also, now we have figure out how we can make Electus Matari shoot Interbus customs offices. Why would Minmatar Republic loyalists shoot poor Interbus! (No, this is not a real problem, we'll get some fun RP out of that :-D) |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
98
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Do you plan to give us any feedback later if this change is a complete success/utter failure?
Such as providing numbers on how much tax revenue has been generated compared to player owned custom offices destroyed? Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Anton Abo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thank you for the update.
Good job for the transition, it should make things much easier for everybody. However I feel like most of the issues mentionned in the excellent summary done by CCP Phantom are not addressed (link to post : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=222897#post222897)
Speaking for myself, I fear for the future of ninja PI in w-space. Residents still have too little incentive to let me in (you win a lot of money in there, and the few bucks more allowing me to use their planets is not worth the risk of having intruders in the system)
Also going through the systems to find a suitable planet / tax rate still looks like a pain to do. |
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David Carel
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
159
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Whoa, my standings suggestion was actually implemented. I am impressed. |
ArchenTheGreat
Pulsar Nebulah Army of Lovers.
5
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
More and more structures have reinforced timer. It's a good idea to add new time widget which will show EVE time AND local user time. It will simplify setting reinforce timers to come out in correct TZ. |
Jareck Hunter
Rubicon Legion Initiative Mercenaries
3
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nice changes.
But the problems with griefers in Lowsec stays, they will still force people to move to empire or quit pi and make the planets in Lowsec not worth fighting for, cause nobody will be there to get taxed.
Can't we just make them conquerable and not destroyable in Lowsec? CCP t0rfifrans wrote: "We are simply fixing some things that we broke so that we can move forward. Tbh we've had our head somewhat placed in the lowermost segment of the large intestine and are finally coming out for air." |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
541
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jareck Hunter wrote:Nice changes.
But the problems with griefers in Lowsec stays, they will still force people to move to empire or quit pi and make the planets in Lowsec not worth fighting for, cause nobody will be there to get taxed.
Can't we just make them conquerable and not destroyable in Lowsec?
They want low sec to be a controlled arm of the null alliances. That's how they're "fixing" it. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Mallikanth
L V B Industries
22
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nice to see. Not just the POCO and their player-led changes but the fact that all this stuff is being worked on my CCP. Believe in what they do, not what they say.
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Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
1065
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
From the ass-end of wormhole space comes a great collective sigh of relief.
CSM - because I have not yet plumbed the depths of my inherent masochism! CSM 6 Activities Summary | My CSM blog |
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
23
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:From the ass-end of wormhole space comes a great collective sigh of relief.
...until someone shoots the Interbus CO out from under you... |
Ethanole
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
8
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
Still doesn't change the fact that the taxes are ridiculous, you should allow at least 200% tax rates for these to actually mean something, even a 15 or 20% tax rate for interbus CO's won't bother anyone, In fact I don't see anyone spending 1B on a system just to gain 5M isk per month.
Apart from that the changes are quite good, this is gonna make PI a lot more interesting and fun to manage :D |
Ariane VoxDei
12
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:56:00 -
[19] - Quote
Hard to be even remotely constructive about it after that blog/blurb.
Essentially ignored all concerns and really weak copout on prices, which you were also warned about. Spending LP is another (missed) opportunity cost. So the BPC alone will be 80M+ if from concord, and a much less insane 20M+ from FW shops, clearly those numbers dictate that price will be set by the FW shop - just like they set the price for faction battleships. Slap on another roughly 32M in P4 mats, for absolute minimum of 52M. Wont stay there though. Taxes will be yanked up in non-sov space, with the usual "why tax less than NPC when people have no other options" and taxes on NPC-PO are apparently still being doubled, since you seem to have wilfully ignored the lessons from the "11%" story that Eris was scapegoated for.
We dont need more "might makes right, so eat **** or die".
This will still practically kill lowsec PI, fruitlessly extratax hisec PI, effectively taxexempt nullsec PI and drive up PI prices a bit more as taxes and POCO losses (those not behind cynowalls) need to be amortized. As for WH PI, that is going to be a particularly nasty nerf, but I dont have numbers on their share of the PI market to guestimate how big a pricehike that will generate. |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
27
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Posted - 2011.11.15 11:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
I like the changes you've made. But there is still no mechanism to transfer PI materials inside a POCO. How about allowing contracts? |
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Via Shivon
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
good i sold all my PI mats before work ^^ but i thought right, doesent really work to remove all POCOS on day x... |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
98
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 12:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
Also, I still think this is a pretty terrible idea you are trying to impose especially in low sec and NPC zero sec. PI in its current implementation is incredible limited and consist of moving dots around and pressing a few buttons. Simplistic, tedious and boring gameplay will many agree to. But some find it interesting game play anyhow, just like some people enjoy mining. PI (on the planet) can easily be done by a solo or small corporation which gives them purpose.
Now you brilliant idea is forcing these people either into a gameplay that is pretty much the opposite of the current PI (adrenaline pumping ship to ship combat) or the option to abandon PI altogether (on their way to doing the same with EVE in general). I seriously cannot see the selling point in limiting peopleGÇÖs access to one game feature by letting another be able to rule over it. That is the reason why Darkfall is crap if you are interests are in crafting and market mechanics because hackGÇÖnGÇÖslash rule all. Same reason why people who enjoy fighting against other players hate when they are forced into PvE raids to get gear for these fights.
Within a month or so we will see one blob of players identifying what PI mineral is the bottleneck, stock it up and then wipe out all POCOs in low sec, or take them over to exclude everybody else, for that particular mineral. Or we will see the Goons doing us all a favor by rapidly destroying each and every POCO in low sec.
Fundamentally; did you seriously believe people would get more interested in PI when you do not improve on the actual PI mechanics but instead limits peopleGÇÖs access to them? What kind of player are you hoping to draw in with this?
If PvP should be a greater element in PI it should have be done on the darn planets. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
112
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
so now we'll have npc offices everywhere, and if someone want to put his own, he must destroy the npc one before, then build his own, right ? |
Via Shivon
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
Raid'En wrote:so now we'll have npc offices everywhere, and if someone want to put his own, he must destroy the npc one before, then build his own, right ?
right |
Dierdra Vaal
Veto. Veto Corp
56
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
especially the custom tax rates are a good change. Thanks CCP :)
Veto #205 * * * Director Emeritus at EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman |
smaster
SniggWaffe
2
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Will the next expansion contain the GM Extras Menu for the general public?
(please say yesssss) |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
203
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 12:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ethanole wrote:Still doesn't change the fact that the taxes are ridiculous, you should allow at least 200% tax rates for these to actually mean something, even a 15 or 20% tax rate for interbus CO's won't bother anyone, In fact I don't see anyone spending 1B on a system just to gain 5M isk per month. I've been thinking about this, too.
At current market prices, a POCO will be 85-90m ISK in total to set up. P4 items currently cost 50k ISK in export task per unit (5%). Assuming 15% tax rate, this will be 150k ISK per P4 item. Each P4 also requires 18 P3 items to be imported. At 600 ISK p.u. currently, that would be another 600*18*3 = 32.4k ISK tax per P4 item. Or 182.4k ISK total. That is, you need to produce 494 P4 items on a planet to make the POCO pay off. That's a bit under 50k m3.
At full capacity, that would be under a week.
This is a bit off, as no one will pay 15% tax for a pure production planet if they can just pay 10% in much safer high-sec, but it should give a rough idea. It's difficult to calculate profit for extraction, as I do not know extraction numbers in low-sec.
With a 5% tax, that's still under a month.
So really, not that far off. |
Apodis Blue
Indicium Technologies Hephaestus Forge Alliance
3
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:To quote from the latest blog GÇ£One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removedGÇ¥
What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?
The GÇ£NewGÇ¥ CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not.
CCP Omen wrote:We have gone through the thread and thanks to the efforts of the community team as well as Team Pi members sitting up all night following the thread we believe we have a pretty good grasp on your feedback and your concerns (let us know if we don't). I guess you kept it with 1 single night up...
What about the economical impact of this "so called awesome feature"? I haven't read any comments of CCP on that... Have you actually been monitoring the ice and PI prices lately on TQ? Have you actually noticed what the announcement of this change did to those prices? (And that was just the announcement... This one and the one about the POS fuel change.)
Sorry, still not convinced this will be a "cool" feature. |
Via Shivon
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
19
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:24:00 -
[29] - Quote
Apodis Blue wrote:Rommiee wrote:To quote from the latest blog GÇ£One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removedGÇ¥
What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?
The GÇ£NewGÇ¥ CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not. CCP Omen wrote:We have gone through the thread and thanks to the efforts of the community team as well as Team Pi members sitting up all night following the thread we believe we have a pretty good grasp on your feedback and your concerns (let us know if we don't). I guess you kept it with 1 single night up... What about the economical impact of this "so called awesome feature"? I haven't read any comments of CCP on that... Have you actually been monitoring the ice and PI prices lately on TQ? Have you actually noticed what the announcement of this change did to those prices? (And that was just the announcement... This one and the one about the POS fuel change.) Sorry, still not convinced this will be a "cool" feature.
omg oso much tears...the ANNOUNCEMENT did that not the feature. Heavy Water raised from 20 to 200 with 000000 reason beside the sepulation...welcome to economics |
Apodis Blue
Indicium Technologies Hephaestus Forge Alliance
3
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Zyrbalax III wrote:Trebor Daehdoow wrote:From the ass-end of wormhole space comes a great collective sigh of relief. ... until someone shoots the Interbus CO out from under you... ... literaly from the ass-end. Making the COs owned by Interbus doesn't change a thing to their distructability. |
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Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
17
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:30:00 -
[31] - Quote
Did you say you had people stay up all night reading the feedback thread?.......I think they fell asleep and told you a lie!
You have still failed to address the majority of very valid and well thought out points made in response to the initial blog.
The changes you have made will help in the transitionary period but I think people were also concerned with the long term effects.
The main omission from the follow up blog has to be that you have failed to increase the size of planetary launches!
I'm very disappointed in this reply, having read some of the other blogs and seen your quick and helpful responses this is a bit weak!
@ lowsec and 0.0 peeps, watch out for bored incursion fleets coming to a system near you to blow up those Interbus CO's......... |
Solo Player
75
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:30:00 -
[32] - Quote
Could we have Interbus rebuild their CO in lowsec when there is no POCO present? Say in 24 hours?
That'd effectively save low sec from having no CO anywhere within a week or two.
Also, why shouldn't Interbus mind you shooting down their property? Instead, why not allow players to buy the CO off Interbus? Setting up a POCO is not such an interesting game mechanic, and buying it would fit within the game world a lot better. |
Floydd Heywood
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:31:00 -
[33] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:To quote from the latest blog GÇ£One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removedGÇ¥
What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?
The GÇ£NewGÇ¥ CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not.
Love it how people will pretend everyone is of their opinion without any factual basis. About 20 of those pages were people saying they liked the feature as it was initially announced. Another 50 pages was people asking for the changes now implemented. Maybe the remaining 10 pages were people asking for changes that were now not implemented, or were simply whining. Only because CCP doesn't fulfill every wish someone utters on the forums, doesn't mean they "ignore the playerbase" |
Besbin
Balderfrey Enterprises Balderfrey Constrium Alliance
3
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:33:00 -
[34] - Quote
A slight clarification suggestion:
For understanding purposes regarding the taxes for standings, you might wanna write "% tax" to indicate that the number is a tax percentage (since standings numbers looks so much alike a tax percentage). Just to make it a slight bit easier for new users to comprehend (it confused me a bit to begin with and I generally go by the notion that if I get confused, somebody else will too).
/Besbin |
le chatlier
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:35:00 -
[35] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:Could we have Interbus rebuild their CO in lowsec when there is no POCO present? Say in 24 hours?
That'd effectively save low sec from having no CO anywhere within a week or two.
Also, why shouldn't Interbus mind you shooting down their property? Instead, why not allow players to buy the CO off Interbus? Setting up a POCO is not such an interesting game mechanic, and buying it would fit within the game world a lot better.
this mostly. Or have a proverbial platinum chip tied to the CO that the owner can contract out instead of an option on a menu |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
98
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
414
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:37:00 -
[37] - Quote
I like this change. Do the interbus offices just blow up? Do they have the same HP as regular offices? CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog What does CSM 6 do? |
John DaiSho
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
1
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
The amount of people being afraid of changing PI prices in this thread is incredible. Of course prices are to change, every major Expansion has a major impact on the markets, thats nothing new. You should adapt and try to make ISK out of it.
I think this are some really good changes, it looks like PI is changing from some small 2nd profession into serious business. And starters will still be able to make good ISK from it in highsec without many skills. I am very exited about the further changes once Dust will arrive sometime.
o/ John |
Rommiee
Mercury Inc. Death Rhubarb
1
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Posted - 2011.11.15 12:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
Floydd Heywood wrote:Rommiee wrote:To quote from the latest blog GÇ£One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removedGÇ¥
What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?
The GÇ£NewGÇ¥ CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not. Love it how people will pretend everyone is of their opinion without any factual basis. About 20 of those pages were people saying they liked the feature as it was initially announced. Another 50 pages was people asking for the changes now implemented. Maybe the remaining 10 pages were people asking for changes that were now not implemented, or were simply whining. Only because CCP doesn't fulfill every wish someone utters on the forums, doesn't mean they "ignore the playerbase"
Love it how people have no clue.....
Let me spell it out for you on a factual basis.
This is the list of concerns from the original blog post;
User Interface not good enough Not enough flexibility at setting taxes for the different standing levels. Player suggestion here. Timestamp of tax collection in corp wallet could be used to collect intel on people doing PI. Tax management bad for large entities, necessary to include alliance level also. Finding GÇ£suitableGÇ¥ PCOs without going from system to system near impossible. Advertising tax rate for PCO and checking for competitors extremely difficult.
Problems during transition period No BPCs available before wipe of the existing Customs Offices, transition becomes very difficult. Disruption of PI due to the transition might become a major problem. Lack of Gantries and PCOs during the transition
Lowsec changes caters only griefing Lowsec will get devastated since every random group can bust PCOs without drawback Risk/Reward in Lowsec is completely wrong, no good enough profit from PI in Lowsec.
Nullsec changes only good for blobs and large groups Shuts out small groups from 0.0 as they canGÇÖt compete with big blobs Large 0.0 alliances will never allow independent small groups (as seen in the past) PCO owners wonGÇÖt allow access of neutrals, this encourages only big blobs Supercap blob heaven shooting up those defenceless structures
Bad effects on other industries PI prices will increase drastically, affecting POS owners heavily, making it more difficult for the small/new people
Wormholes Reinforcement timer in Wormholes too long for roaming gangs to do any serious damage Transition in Wormholes will be especially difficult without prior BPC release Wormhole corporations will lock out everyone else, no Ninja-PI possible
Pricelevels are off, PCOs will be unprofitable PCOs will be unprofitable and not worth the invested time and especially ISK Income from PCOs will be too low to justify the build costs and risk deploying them Taxrate will be either near 0 or near 100 Taxes in Highsec for P4 products too high
Worries about general mechanics Only one PCO per planet is not good enough and hinders competition. Too big changes with not enough thoughts being put into the resulting effects on the sandbox as whole Defenceless PCOs are bad and encourage random griefing and no GÇÿconstructiveGÇÖ destruction Transport rocket from player surface is not large enough to prevent being locked out prom planets P4 producers are especially hit hard when no PCO is around, rocket wonGÇÖt help here
Change of playstyle to more blobbing and griefing, hurting small people Encourages blobbing Discourages small gang warfare Hurts the small people most, benefits large blobs most Encourages griefing a lot as there is no risk in attacking PCOs Easy griefing PCOs discourages constructive gameplay Giving away control to people who do not really care about it GÇô heavy grief play results. Lowsec/Nullsec exclusively for corps and alliances only now More boring structure shooting and grinding Extremely asymmetric , catering to the attackers and griefers Forces people into corporations if they want to do PCO, big change of playstyle
Bad for casual gameplay Hurts the casual player since they normally wonGÇÖt get the required corp roles to deploy PCOs PI changes from low risk, low income to high risk, very boring, medium income Why roles at all for POCs? That only hurts casual games without roles
Details of the structures Size of the gantry is bad, it doesnGÇÖt fit into all racial blockade runners. Either make it small enough to fit into all blockade runners or large enough that it doesnGÇÖt fit into any runner
Soooo... Floydd Heywood How many of these concerns have been addressed and changed for the better, do you think ? |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
12
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:07:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Well, the only boneheaded part left is requiring LPs for the blueprints. Hard to get LPs in wormholes... unless you start giving Concord LPs for killing Sleepers...
It's called "trading", and involves interacting with other players. Wormholes are not meant to be 100% self-sufficient, and nor should they be. Interdependence drives conflict. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
32
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:07:00 -
[41] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet.
You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
32
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:08:00 -
[42] - Quote
Two step wrote:I like this change. Do the interbus offices just blow up? Do they have the same HP as regular offices?
Yes and yes. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
482
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:How many of these concerns have been addressed and changed for the better, do you think ? Let me just inform you that the list of whine you posted made me come, twice, or trice.
It makes me giddy not only to the prospect of carebears crying, but how this will affect low-sec and nul-sec industry and PvP. 84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
12
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:08:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Jareck Hunter wrote:Nice changes.
But the problems with griefers in Lowsec stays, they will still force people to move to empire or quit pi and make the planets in Lowsec not worth fighting for, cause nobody will be there to get taxed.
Can't we just make them conquerable and not destroyable in Lowsec? They want low sec to be a controlled arm of the null alliances. That's how they're "fixing" it.
Confirming that Fatal Ascension's #1 priority is maintaining control over nearby low-sec. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
52
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote:Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet. You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied.
Does a message get sent when that number gets changes or is it locked in when the POCO gets built. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
541
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:14:00 -
[46] - Quote
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Well, the only boneheaded part left is requiring LPs for the blueprints. Hard to get LPs in wormholes... unless you start giving Concord LPs for killing Sleepers... It's called "trading", and involves interacting with other players. Wormholes are not meant to be 100% self-sufficient, and nor should they be. Interdependence drives conflict.
Hush. I'm trying to get them to consider Concord LP for killing Sleepers.
Still, they should do better than to leave the BPCs at the mercy of people trying to suffer through faction wars or incursion runners. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
25
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Posted - 2011.11.15 13:15:00 -
[47] - Quote
John DaiSho wrote:The amount of people being afraid of changing PI prices in this thread is incredible. Of course prices are to change, every major Expansion has a major impact on the markets, thats nothing new. You should adapt and try to make ISK out of it.
I think this are some really good changes, it looks like PI is changing from some small 2nd profession into serious business. And starters will still be able to make good ISK from it in highsec without many skills. I am very exited about the further changes once Dust will arrive sometime.
o/ John
Personally I don't much care what happens to the PI price - the market will ensure it's still profitable regardless of POCOs and tax rates. What I care about is whether I'll still be able to do PI at all.
My expectation is that the Goonies (or some other bunch of griefers) will take a tour through lowsec destroying any Interbus CO they can "for the lulz and tearz"; that ninja PI in sov null will still be impossible because CCP haven't changed the sov restriction; that WH ninja PI *may* last a bit longer but invading corps will destroy any COs they see and exiting corps the same, and any new POCOs put up will be "blue only".
So it won't be long before the only realistic non-hi-sec options for the small / casual player (like me) are lowsec with planetary launches or wh with planetary launches or npc nullsec the same. And having not seen fit to increase planetary launch size, CCP have just increased the amount of work I have to do for PI by an order magnitude (while actually reducing the probability of my PI alts getting hit by PVP because planetary launch containers can't be scanned down and are off-grid from anything else so no chance of being ambushed).
Shrug. On the other hand, I also expect PI prices to skyrocket so maybe I'll still be able to get the same isk from the same time input but with much lower volumes of materials.
Sigh. It would just be nice if CCP would actually consider the small player for a change. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
541
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:15:00 -
[48] - Quote
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Jareck Hunter wrote:Nice changes.
But the problems with griefers in Lowsec stays, they will still force people to move to empire or quit pi and make the planets in Lowsec not worth fighting for, cause nobody will be there to get taxed.
Can't we just make them conquerable and not destroyable in Lowsec? They want low sec to be a controlled arm of the null alliances. That's how they're "fixing" it. Confirming that Fatal Ascension's #1 priority is maintaining control over nearby low-sec.
See?! SEE!? Absolute PROOF!
I am vindicated! Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
14
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:17:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:Also, I still think this is a pretty terrible idea you are trying to impose especially in low sec and NPC zero sec. PI in its current implementation is incredible limited and consist of moving dots around and pressing a few buttons. Simplistic, tedious and boring gameplay will many agree to. But some find it interesting game play anyhow, just like some people enjoy mining. PI (on the planet) can easily be done by a solo or small corporation which gives them purpose.
Now you brilliant idea is forcing these people either into a gameplay that is pretty much the opposite of the current PI (adrenaline pumping ship to ship combat) or the option to abandon PI altogether (on their way to doing the same with EVE in general). I seriously cannot see the selling point in limiting peopleGÇÖs access to one game feature by letting another be able to rule over it. That is the reason why Darkfall is crap if you are interests are in crafting and market mechanics because hackGÇÖnGÇÖslash rule all. Same reason why people who enjoy fighting against other players hate when they are forced into PvE raids to get gear for these fights.
Within a month or so we will see one blob of players identifying what PI mineral is the bottleneck, stock it up and then wipe out all POCOs in low sec, or take them over to exclude everybody else, for that particular mineral. Or we will see the Goons doing us all a favor by rapidly destroying each and every POCO in low sec.
Fundamentally; did you seriously believe people would get more interested in PI when you do not improve on the actual PI mechanics but instead limits peopleGÇÖs access to them? What kind of player are you hoping to draw in with this?
If PvP should be a greater element in PI it should have be done on the darn planets.
I think you're comparing the current Gallente Ice Interdiction with PI too much. It's very hard to bottleneck PI, because unlike most resources (Technetium, racial Ice, racial Ores), it's spread more-or-less evenly across New Eden. You can't lock down a few dozen systems and control the supply side enough to influence price. Therefore the only way to bottleneck the supply is to buy up existing supply...across every Region in New Eden. I determined (and wealthy) group might be able to pull it off for a short time, but that's just good market PVPing.
The real issue--if it is one--is that in general these changes are going to make PI a more dangerous passive income, and more susceptible to loss. (Seriously, the occasional industrial full of Coolant gets popped now and then, but in general PI has a high efficiency rate of getting to market). This will push supply down, raising prices, which will stabilize when enough people see the higher price as worth the risk and inconvenience for "just a little passive ISK". |
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
14
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:19:00 -
[50] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote:[quote=Ethanole] This is a bit off, as no one will pay 15% tax for a pure production planet if they can just pay 10% in much safer high-sec, but it should give a rough idea. It's difficult to calculate profit for extraction, as I do not know extraction numbers in low-sec.
With a 5% tax, that's still under a month.
So really, not that far off.
Good analysis. One practical impact might be that 0.0 is used to pull raw materials (and probably process to the first tier), and high-sec is weighted towards production worlds. Import/export dependencies are nice. (There will be plenty of exceptions, of course). |
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Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
14
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:21:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Well, the only boneheaded part left is requiring LPs for the blueprints. Hard to get LPs in wormholes... unless you start giving Concord LPs for killing Sleepers... It's called "trading", and involves interacting with other players. Wormholes are not meant to be 100% self-sufficient, and nor should they be. Interdependence drives conflict. Hush. I'm trying to get them to consider Concord LP for killing Sleepers. Still, they should do better than to leave the BPCs at the mercy of people trying to suffer through faction wars or incursion runners.
LOL I agree it's a little gamey, but FW types have seen nothing for so long now, it's probably good to throw them something, however measly. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:21:00 -
[52] - Quote
Salpun wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote:Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet. You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied. Does a message get sent when that number gets changes or is it locked in when the POCO gets built.
No message and the owner can change it at any time. You can always check it before you export but if they lock you out or drive up the tax rate then that's really a diplomatic issue more than a notification issue. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
|
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
53
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:27:00 -
[53] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Salpun wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote:Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet. You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied. Does a message get sent when that number gets changes or is it locked in when the POCO gets built. No message and the owner can change it at any time. You can always check it before you export but if they lock you out or drive up the tax rate then that's really a diplomatic issue more than a notification issue. Will those rates show on the master export panal if so no problem but if some one has to right click everytime to check thats going to make for some very annoyed people. |
John DaiSho
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:30:00 -
[54] - Quote
Zyrbalax III wrote:John DaiSho wrote:The amount of people being afraid of changing PI prices in this thread is incredible. Of course prices are to change, every major Expansion has a major impact on the markets, thats nothing new. You should adapt and try to make ISK out of it.
I think this are some really good changes, it looks like PI is changing from some small 2nd profession into serious business. And starters will still be able to make good ISK from it in highsec without many skills. I am very exited about the further changes once Dust will arrive sometime.
o/ John So it won't be long before the only realistic non-hi-sec options for the small / casual player (like me) are lowsec with planetary launches or wh with planetary launches or npc nullsec the same.
Thats what i meant with "PI is becoming serious business". Yes it will be harder to PI solo somewhere else then highsec but now big PI operations could be formed, "owning" several planets that are especially good for producing some stuff, maintaining their POCOs, advertising their operation, selling access to their planets, and what not.
Actually i hope that some bored pirates are blowing up the Interbus offices in lowsec relatively fast so the players can start fighting for the best planets. Of course the PI prices have to be high or noone would care fighting for it. And in the end its true that if you want to PI solo outside of highsec you will have to put alot more effort into it compared to finding some other PIers and work together, but isnt that what you should do anyway?
o/ John |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
33
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:30:00 -
[55] - Quote
Salpun wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Salpun wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote:Btw. you forgot to give players an option to see how much tax they have to pay (or if they are completely excluded from using the POCO) before settling on a planet. You can see this by viewing the show info on a customs offices (or by opening up the customs office UI itself). It will either show you the tax rate applicable for you, or say access denied. Does a message get sent when that number gets changes or is it locked in when the POCO gets built. No message and the owner can change it at any time. You can always check it before you export but if they lock you out or drive up the tax rate then that's really a diplomatic issue more than a notification issue. Will those rates show on the master export panal if so no problem but if some one has to right click everytime to check thats going to make for some very annoyed people.
Yes as well as the total cost. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
|
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
58
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:33:00 -
[56] - Quote
Here are some replies to topics raised:
"People will grief the Interbus COs" That is quite probable, even with this change of deployment, our guiding light is that EVE is player driven. This way the transition between NPC owned and Player owned will be smoother. It's no silver bullet and balancing between player driven and player convenience is very difficult. Our hope remain that you, the player will organize and sort out the supply and demand of PI goods and the availability of Customs Offices. If that does not happen, and there is a measurable decline in lowsec or PI activity then we will act. How we act will be decided if that event occurs, but we will not simply let lowsec die. We strive to invigorate lowsec, not just with this feature but for the long run. You may disagree that this feature will accomplish that, but that is never the less one of our goals and we will monitor how it pans out.
"Do you think more people will do PI?" No, as many have pointed out the PI gameplay in itself is far from perfect and we are absolutely not trying to make people do PI. The player owned customs offices are meant to increase meaningful space conflict and the verisimilitude of the EVE universe. Actual improvements to PI is an entirely different topic. Having said that, we are hoping for activity to stay somewhat the same.
"Did you have a clue the prices went up based on the previous blog?" Yes - absolutely and that was expected. We also fully expect the prices of PI goods to be unstable while the market adapts. The higher prices are in fact essential to drive motivation to operate Customs Offices. In the end, we believe the prices of for instance POS fuel will stabilize as we have seen with nearly all other player driven commodities in EVE.
"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread" We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
207
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:34:00 -
[57] - Quote
Quote: The Interbus Corporation will charge slightly more tax than CONCORD and we will continue to monitor the tax rates for both CONCORD and Interbus
It was noted in a few places (see below) that the tax rates are seemingly based on some derived value rather than anything relevant to the market value, making all taxes incredibly low an giving a very narrow range of effective taxation.
Has this been looked into? I can only assume that the 'higher' tax rate is to encourage alliances to destroy the npc offices and replace them with their own, but under the current model that is less of an incentive than it might seem.
Thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33468 |
Solo Player
76
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:34:00 -
[58] - Quote
@CCP:
I'm still missing an explanation why (for example) the Amarr Empire would just - let a (form their perspective) terrorist organisation like Ushra'khan destroy an Interbus customs office - and then let same terrorists tariff Amarr-built products - even let them restrict POCO use to terrorists on a populated planet under Amarrian Sovereignty for free!
Is this (plausibility) not a concern to you at all? |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
53
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:36:00 -
[59] - Quote
WH PI was not addressed in the blog directly. All customs offices will remain until destroyed correct? |
Zeimanov Kalzumaan
Haruspex Industries Wrong Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:38:00 -
[60] - Quote
Great work CCP - I'm starting to get quite concerned about this patch - has there been some sort of invasion of the body snatchers, everything is too perfect and it's making me suspicious.
Just to check - will the Interbus customs offices have a reinforcement cycle? if so will it be random or will they be able to be destroyed straight off the bat? |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
33
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:39:00 -
[61] - Quote
Salpun wrote:WH PI was not addressed in the blog directly. All customs offices will remain until destroyed correct?
Yes any existing NPC customs offices that are on TQ when this update lands will remain until they are destroyed. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
245
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:39:00 -
[62] - Quote
Cool, I like the update. The flexibility in transition and tax control is a good way to go.
As for other suggestions and comments:
Concord LP for sleepers? No - you're out in wild-west space, why would Concord care? You want the LP, come join the settled universe for a bit, or shop on the market for your PCO when they arrive. At least you have Interbus's CO to hold you over.
Conquerable vs. destroyable: No - CCP is wanting to move away from conquerable stations in 0.0 and make them destroyable too. This would be a step in the wrong direction.
The big list of "concerns": Many of those are contradictory, and many are personal whines based on wild speculation. Just because someone posted it doesn't make it a valid concern.
Lowsec PI being owned by 0.0 blob alliances: Um yeah, sure. They'll have plenty of time to go check on thousands of PCOs on hundreds of planets in dozens of systems. Yep, this trickle of isk will surely be the next king-maker and replace moon mining. *yawn*
Good job wading through 80+ pages of whining and drivel to pull out the good stuff CCP :) This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Rommiee
Mercury Inc. Death Rhubarb
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:41:00 -
[63] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread" We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.
Regards Omen
One idea that was not too grand and very feasible.
Cancel this completely. Job done.
|
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
60
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:41:00 -
[64] - Quote
Salpun wrote:WH PI was not addressed in the blog directly. All customs offices will remain until destroyed correct?
yes
regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Kirin Falense
Some names are just stupid
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:43:00 -
[65] - Quote
Zeimanov Kalzumaan wrote: Just to check - will the Interbus customs offices have a reinforcement cycle? if so will it be random or will they be able to be destroyed straight off the bat?
I would like to know this too... |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
245
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:43:00 -
[66] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:@CCP:
I'm still missing an explanation why (for example) the Amarr Empire would just - let a (form their perspective) terrorist organisation like Ushra'khan destroy an Interbus customs office - and then let same terrorists tariff Amarr-built products - even let them restrict POCO use to terrorists on a populated planet under Amarrian Sovereignty for free!
Is this (plausibility) not a concern to you at all?
For the same reasons they don't go into lowsec to enforce or punish anything else that goes on there.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
John DaiSho
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:44:00 -
[67] - Quote
From the devblog: - The highsec Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD as previously planned - Ownership of all lowsec, 0.0 and WORMHOLE Customs Offices is transferred to NPC corp GÇ£InterbusGÇ¥ - The Interbus Customs Offices can be used for PI or shot down (without standing or security penalty) - Interbus Customs Offices will not be de-spawned, they will remain until destroyed by players - The Interbus Corporation will charge slightly more tax than CONCORD and we will continue to monitor the tax rates for both CONCORD and Interbus
So yes, WH offices will stay as Interbus once until the guys that live there weill replace them with their own once. " |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
60
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:44:00 -
[68] - Quote
Zeimanov Kalzumaan wrote:Great work CCP - I'm starting to get quite concerned about this patch - has there been some sort of invasion of the body snatchers, everything is too perfect and it's making me suspicious.
Just to check - will the Interbus customs offices have a reinforcement cycle? if so will it be random or will they be able to be destroyed straight off the bat?
Thank you! No body snatchers as far as I am aware.
The Interbus corporation is far too incompetent to install reinforcement so no, they don't go into reinforced. Game Designer Team Pi |
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
245
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:44:00 -
[69] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:CCP Omen wrote:"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread" We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.
Regards Omen One idea that was not too grand and very feasible. Cancel this completely. Job done.
I'm guessing that idea failed the "that we agreed with" test.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Grukni
Shimai of New Eden N E X O
19
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:47:00 -
[70] - Quote
I like it. CCP simply wants to add more value to PI. In the future we'll be able to fight for PI in DUST514. |
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Solo Player
76
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:50:00 -
[71] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Solo Player wrote:@CCP:
I'm still missing an explanation why (for example) the Amarr Empire would just - let a (form their perspective) terrorist organisation like Ushra'khan destroy an Interbus customs office - and then let same terrorists tariff Amarr-built products - even let them restrict POCO use to terrorists on a populated planet under Amarrian Sovereignty for free!
Is this (plausibility) not a concern to you at all? For the same reasons they don't go into lowsec to enforce or punish anything else that goes on there.
But they do - there is a difference between lowsec and NPC nullsec, you know? And even so, they may turn a blind eye to capsuleers, but it would be enormously against their own interests if Empires just let anyone who wants run their own planets. |
Rommiee
Mercury Inc. Death Rhubarb
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:51:00 -
[72] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Rommiee wrote:CCP Omen wrote:"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread" We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.
Regards Omen One idea that was not too grand and very feasible. Cancel this completely. Job done. I'm guessing that idea failed the "that we agreed with" test.
Yes, clearly.
So we are back to the "Do what we want and dont listen" mode then.... sigh |
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:52:00 -
[73] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote:[quote=Ethanole] So really, not that far off. Very far off. My alt PI operations paid over 40 mil in custom taxes last month. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
182
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:57:00 -
[74] - Quote
Cool story bro(CCP Omen) The plebs is afraid of change. |
John DaiSho
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:58:00 -
[75] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:
Yes, clearly.
So we are back to the "Do what we want and dont listen" mode then.... sigh
More like "Dont listen to stupid ideas" - mode.
o/ John |
Hiram Alexander
Seraphim Securities
80
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:58:00 -
[76] - Quote
Hi, I haven't gone through all the replies here yet, though I will in a minute... I just wanted to ask a short (silly?) question, for a bit of clarification...
Q --- Does the tax rate setting for 'Neutral' standings also work properly; so that it acts as the tax rate for 'No standings'...? |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
245
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:04:00 -
[77] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:War Kitten wrote:Solo Player wrote:@CCP:
I'm still missing an explanation why (for example) the Amarr Empire would just - let a (form their perspective) terrorist organisation like Ushra'khan destroy an Interbus customs office - and then let same terrorists tariff Amarr-built products - even let them restrict POCO use to terrorists on a populated planet under Amarrian Sovereignty for free!
Is this (plausibility) not a concern to you at all? For the same reasons they don't go into lowsec to enforce or punish anything else that goes on there. But they do - there is a difference between lowsec and NPC nullsec, you know? And even so, they may turn a blind eye to capsuleers, but it would be enormously against their own interests if Empires just let anyone who wants run their own planets.
They already "let" anyone who wants to run their own moon. Although, I would choose the word "ignore" rather than "let".
Factions don't do anything in lowsec to enforce any rules. They merely throw up a couple guns outside their stations to shoot at perceived threats to the order, but they don't pursue or enforce any sort of justice. If they did, it would cease to be lowsec and become another hisec system. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
33
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:05:00 -
[78] - Quote
Hiram Alexander wrote:Hi, I haven't gone through all the replies here yet, though I will in a minute... I just wanted to ask a short (silly?) question, for a bit of clarification...
Q --- Does the tax rate setting for 'Neutral' standings also work properly; so that it acts as the tax rate for 'No standings'...?
Yes, if you have no standing set then you get the neutral value. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
352
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:06:00 -
[79] - Quote
I think the #1 change that needs to be made to the UI is to do away with the percentage signs. They are going to cause endless confusion about how the import/export fees are calculated. A lot of people are going to assume that "10%" means 10% of market value and not 10% of some internal tariff value.
Change those fields to say:
### x
So a 1% setting for the corporate tariff would be entered as "0.01x". The 10% setting would be "0.10x". (or change the fields and base tariff amounts to work on integers... 1x to 20x).
And the fields still need to be changed to specifically say "tariff" not "tax/taxes". "Tariff" implies a book of rates, tax tends to imply a percentage of value. |
Brunaburh
Aurora Security Transstellar Operations
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:09:00 -
[80] - Quote
Rommiee wrote: [i]User Interface not good enough Not enough flexibility at setting taxes for the different standing levels. Player suggestion here. Timestamp of tax collection in corp wallet could be used to collect intel on people doing PI. Tax management bad for large entities, necessary to include alliance level also. Finding GÇ£suitableGÇ¥ PCOs without going from system to system near impossible. Advertising tax rate for PCO and checking for competitors extremely difficult.
Lowsec changes caters only griefing Lowsec will get devastated since every random group can bust PCOs without drawback Risk/Reward in Lowsec is completely wrong, no good enough profit from PI in Lowsec.
Taxes were addressed, to some extent. Other than somehow seeing the tax rates prior to entering a system to set up, the rest of this is whining.
Have you ever been in LoSec? I live there. Unless you are in a handful of populous areas, Losec is a ghost town. All of these arguments are fallacies.
Rommiee wrote: Nullsec changes only good for blobs and large groups Shuts out small groups from 0.0 as they canGÇÖt compete with big blobs Large 0.0 alliances will never allow independent small groups (as seen in the past) PCO owners wonGÇÖt allow access of neutrals, this encourages only big blobs Supercap blob heaven shooting up those defenceless structures
Bad effects on other industries PI prices will increase drastically, affecting POS owners heavily, making it more difficult for the small/new people
Waaaa! Perhaps EVE is due for some inflation in PI related processes then.
Rommiee wrote: Pricelevels are off, PCOs will be unprofitable PCOs will be unprofitable and not worth the invested time and especially ISK Income from PCOs will be too low to justify the build costs and risk deploying them Taxrate will be either near 0 or near 100 Taxes in Highsec for P4 products too high
Reviewed and proven as false.
Rommiee wrote: Worries about general mechanics Only one PCO per planet is not good enough and hinders competition. Too big changes with not enough thoughts being put into the resulting effects on the sandbox as whole Defenceless PCOs are bad and encourage random griefing and no GÇÿconstructiveGÇÖ destruction Transport rocket from player surface is not large enough to prevent being locked out prom planets P4 producers are especially hit hard when no PCO is around, rocket wonGÇÖt help here
Worries and whining. Baseless fears. Or resolved with the NPC PCO remaining.
Rommiee wrote: Change of playstyle to more blobbing and griefing, hurting small people Encourages blobbing Discourages small gang warfare Hurts the small people most, benefits large blobs most Encourages griefing a lot as there is no risk in attacking PCOs Easy griefing PCOs discourages constructive gameplay Giving away control to people who do not really care about it GÇô heavy grief play results. Lowsec/Nullsec exclusively for corps and alliances only now More boring structure shooting and grinding Extremely asymmetric , catering to the attackers and griefers Forces people into corporations if they want to do PCO, big change of playstyle
Bad for casual gameplay Hurts the casual player since they normally wonGÇÖt get the required corp roles to deploy PCOs PI changes from low risk, low income to high risk, very boring, medium income Why roles at all for POCs? That only hurts casual games without roles
15 battleships is blobbing now? You must live in hisec. All of this is additional whining from people who want to play a different game than EVE Online.
HiSec for casual play. CONCORD PCOs. Problem solved.
I'd say most valid concerns were addressed in some way.
Of course if you count the concerns that are whining because EVE is a PvP game, less are addressed. But then you shouldn't be playing EVE... |
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Andre Coeurl
TOHA Heavy Industries TOHA Conglomerate
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:10:00 -
[81] - Quote
Even with these few changes (which are ok) the basic faults of the new Customs Offices system remain. Biggest fault being that there's no risk in shooting down a CO, which will cost about half as much as a small POS but will have no defence at all. The new COs will be basically just very expensive floating cans with a reinforcement timer.... Even a gang of noobs in velators will be able to kill them, provided they have quite some time to waste "just for the lawls" The only CO which will stand will be those in protected areas (0.0, WHs, and those areas of lowsec where very strong groups live) or those belonging to pirate corps who'll use them as "baits".
The result will be, IMHO, obvious. Lowsec PI become a monopoly of strong alliances in some areas and utterly disappears in others. 0.0 PI of course will be a monopoly of sov holders, and impossible in NPC areas. Wh PI becoming a major operational cost and a PITA as the customs will be sometimes randomly shot down by griefers during off-peak times. Highsec PI further decreases profitability. The overall result will be that PI stuff prices will skyrocket, or the availability to general players will shrink a lot. Apparently CCP wants to see a lot less towers in space, and wants to give the big alliances a further upper hand. Of course this shouldn't surprise anyone, given the composition of current CSM.
If they want to limit the ensuing monopoly, CCP should allow defences to be implemented there, which, I know, is complex boring and expensive, but it's one possible path... or increase the HP on a customs office so much that only a cap fleet will be able to kill it in a short time (the current hitpoints are too little, they should be comparable to those of a large POS not to those of a small one ). and at least don't show the reinforcement timer to attackers, so they'll have to scout to find out when the CO comes out, otherwise it's just too simple to kill it off! |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
99
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:11:00 -
[82] - Quote
Let us take this one again and let us hear how revolutionary the concept of POCOs really is:
CCP Greyscale wrote:link GÇóShooting at stationary structures is boring GùªSee: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. Even the good fights that do happen around such objectives could be improved by having better objectives. GùªShooting at things with hitpoints scales very efficiently with fleet size, which encourages lag-producing behavior GÇóHaving to spend significant amounts of effort defeating an enemy which isn't even fighting back is really boring GùªSee: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. See in particular how long it took to clear IT Alliance's ownership out of Delve, as a recent example GÇóWaking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring GùªSee: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool GÇóDoing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later GùªSee: Jump bridges, cyno jammers, Sov 4, AoE doomsdays, titans in general, supercarrier boost... Note that we should still obviously strive to make everything cool/neat/awesome, but when we start off with an awesome idea rather than an actual problem we want to fix or a feature that has a clear, functional and necessary goal, it generally requires painful fixes further down the road GÇóCost is a useful variable to tune but an unwise thing to rely on to enforce scarcity or balance - players will always be richer than you think GùªSee: outposts, titans, supercarriers GÇóMaking something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it GùªSee: everything involving starbases. As a counterpoint though, things like the one-per-corp-per-system-per-day starbase rule demonstrate that if something doesn't make a big difference but is sufficiently awkward to do, then any theoretical "exploit" scenarios tend to fall out of favor quickly as they're just not worth the effort.
Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Aynen
SI Radio Split Infinity.
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:11:00 -
[83] - Quote
From how I understand it, the survival of Ninja PI in wh space depends upon how many wormhole corps find it worth the effort to destroy the existing costums offices and put into place their own. If most of them do this, then that's the end of Ninja wormhole PI, if most of them don't, we're all good. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
125
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:18:00 -
[84] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote:Ethanole wrote:Still doesn't change the fact that the taxes are ridiculous, you should allow at least 200% tax rates for these to actually mean something, even a 15 or 20% tax rate for interbus CO's won't bother anyone, In fact I don't see anyone spending 1B on a system just to gain 5M isk per month. I've been thinking about this, too. At current market prices, a POCO will be 85-90m ISK in total to set up. P4 items currently cost 50k ISK in export task per unit (5%). Assuming 15% tax rate, this will be 150k ISK per P4 item. Each P4 also requires 18 P3 items to be imported. At 600 ISK p.u. currently, that would be another 600*18*3 = 32.4k ISK tax per P4 item. Or 182.4k ISK total. That is, you need to produce 494 P4 items on a planet to make the POCO pay off. That's a bit under 50k m3. At full capacity, that would be under a week. This is a bit off, as no one will pay 15% tax for a pure production planet if they can just pay 10% in much safer high-sec, but it should give a rough idea. It's difficult to calculate profit for extraction, as I do not know extraction numbers in low-sec.
For the previous devblog thread, I did a fairly unscientific check, and got around 6k P1 units/colony/day. So 9k taxes at 10% rate. That's ridiculous. For a single colony it will take 24 years to pay for the POCO. Completely absurd.
The base cost for the taxes needs to be adjusted for everything under P4 to be closer to market price. A typical P1 item sells for 150-400 isk, but for CO tax purposes it's valued at 15. Should be increased at least tenfold. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
544
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:18:00 -
[85] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Salpun wrote:WH PI was not addressed in the blog directly. All customs offices will remain until destroyed correct? Yes any existing NPC customs offices that are on TQ when this update lands will remain until they are destroyed.
Why have customs offices destructible at all? Why not simply offline them if someone puts a PCO up and online them if it's removed/destroyed? You screw a lot less of the community over that way.
Assuming that matters. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:21:00 -
[86] - Quote
So I assume they can still only be built in stations? Even with the reduced volume etc, it would be nice if us w-dwellers (and deep 0.0 POS dwellers as well I'm sure) could build them in-house, as it were. Equipment Assembly Array? |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
353
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:26:00 -
[87] - Quote
Other "quick fixes" that should have been done to PI for the expansion:
- Fix "Storage Facilities", which are currently only 5000 m3, 500tf and 700MW. They should have been changed to 20k or 30k m3 - or 10k m3 and a reduction in PG/CPU to 200tf and 200MW. They should be a viable alternative to just using Launch Pads everywhere (they're not currently, because LPs use the same MW and hold twice as much on harvest planets - which are not constrained by CPU).
- More CPU/PG for the level 4 CC (with Command Center Upgrades V) and especially the level 5 CC (CCU V skill). At a guess, the CC4 should be closer to 23k tf and 19k MW, while the CC5 should be closer to 27k tf and 25k MW.
- Increase the storage capacity of Command Centers at the higher levels, including expanded launch capability. A more natural progress would be: 500, 600, 750, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
247
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:30:00 -
[88] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:I think the #1 change that needs to be made to the UI is to do away with the percentage signs. They are going to cause endless confusion about how the import/export fees are calculated. A lot of people are going to assume that "10%" means 10% of market value and not 10% of some internal tariff value.
I have to disagree on this one.
The % is much clearer than what you suggested in my eyes. Confusing this tax % with a % value of market value is a fallacy that only those not even truly involved in PI would make.
If you stop for a minute to think about it, how would that even make sense in Eve's marketplace? Which regional market would it choose if there were none of those materials on the local regional market to determine a market value?
Yeah, I know, assuming that people will think first is a stretch, but in the long run, percentages are easier for people to think about than decimals. They just need to be clear in some description somewhere what that percentage relates to. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
126
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:34:00 -
[89] - Quote
I just had a funny idea about the transfer ownership option.
Assume some highsec corp/alliance wants to take over a lowsec POCO. Because they are all very fond of their perfect 5.0 sec status, they do it legally and wardec the owner. They go in and reinforce the POCO.
Then the POCO owner transfers his office to an alt corp.
The attackers are now forced to take GCC, and in any fight with a defending gang, they will suffer a sec loss for every ship they engage/kill.
Would this be acceptable? |
Bephatasis
Evoke. Ev0ke
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:34:00 -
[90] - Quote
In the last DEV-Blog-Comment Thread was mentioned that the Tax will be calculated from a fixed amount of ISK like 6k ISK for Robotics.
Insurance Prices will be changed with mineralcost, why not do the same with the PI Stuff?
Will mean there is a real chance that a Corp is able to get to the Point that it is no wastage of ISK to set up a PlayerOwnedCustomOffice.
Would be nice to hear that u checked some numbers how long it takes to get back the investmentcost for setting up a "POCO".
But again: All in all i've to say, that i like the way this is going, also the changes done up to now are very good compared to the first DEV-Blog. Keep going! |
|
Mike Whiite
Progressive State
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:38:00 -
[91] - Quote
I'm excited, don't know if it will be the end of PI for me or a refocus, alot will depend on the FW fix. At the moment I use PI to pay for the ships I loose with FW.
I might have less need for it when they bring on the changes to FW which would be cool since it will give me me less time transporting stuff.
Or it will become a FW thing by it self which will be cool as well since there is actualy something to gain insteat of a occupy name in the screen.
very excited. |
TheButcherPete
StoneWall Metals Productions Bloodbound.
16
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:44:00 -
[92] - Quote
Just another structure to bash *sighs*
/me snugglehump you long time GÖÑ
~ I AM PETEBBA |
Bephatasis
Evoke. Ev0ke
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:46:00 -
[93] - Quote
Will there be a possibility to "process" the new POS-Fuel (FuelBlocks/FuelPellets) on a Planet? Maybe in High-Tech-Processors only.
Think this will increase the ppl trying PI so that they don't have to waste their Production Slots for building FuelBlocks.
And maybe, if ppl already have the Skills and set up some Planets for building FuelBlocks, they alsp try some PI extended over just building FuelBlocks, and i think more ppl using the ingame stuff would be something good! |
Rommiee
Mercury Inc. Death Rhubarb
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 14:57:00 -
[94] - Quote
Quote:Have you ever been in LoSec? I live there. Unless you are in a handful of populous areas, Losec is a ghost town. All of these arguments are fallacies.
Quote:/15 battleships is blobbing now? You must live in hisec. All of this is additional whining from people who want to play a different game than EVE Online.
Quote:Of course if you count the concerns that are whining because EVE is a PvP game, less are addressed. But then you shouldn't be playing EVE...
Well, you see this is a classic case of making assumptions that cause you to look like an ass.
Three of my main Characters live in 0.0 flying caps and sub-caps.
5 of my other characters live in and around low-sec and do PI in various regions of low-sec.
The list of issues I quoted came directly from the previous blog thread, not directly from myself. This was just to make the point that most of the concerns have not been addressed.
Have a nice day. |
Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:03:00 -
[95] - Quote
Aynen wrote:From how I understand it, the survival of Ninja PI in wh space depends upon how many wormhole corps find it worth the effort to destroy the existing costums offices and put into place their own. If most of them do this, then that's the end of Ninja wormhole PI, if most of them don't, we're all good.
It's not about it being worth the effort. It's about getting rid of pesky freeloaders, and making the PI products more valuable.
I personally hope all WH corps with lowsec/highsec statics start popping the old school Customs offices on day 1 of the winter expansion.
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
354
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:13:00 -
[96] - Quote
Current tariffs in high-security space - as of today - on Singularity:
P0 Aqua - 0.50 / 1.00 per unit (import/export) P1 Oxygen - 0.10 / 0.20 per unit P2 Coolant - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P2 Mech Parts - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P3 Robotics - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P4 Broadcast Node - 50,000 / 100,000 per unit
Math:
- P0:P1 unit ratio is 3000:20 (150:1), volume ratio is 30:7.6 m3 (3.95:1) - P1:P2 unit ratio is 80:5 (16:1), volume ratio is 30.4:7.5 m3 (4.05:1) - P2:P3 unit ratio is either 20:3 or 30:3, volume ratio is either 30 m3 or 45 m3 into 18 m3 - P3:P4 unit ratio is 12:1 or 18:1, volume ratio is between 87-108 m3 vs 100 m3
Current prices on TQ:
P0 - 1.50-4.00 P1 - 150-800 (traditionally 120-600) P2 - 4500-11000 (traditionally 4000-7500) P3 - 25000-70000 P4 - 800k to 1500k (traditionally 600k-1200k)
New export tariffs (in hi-sec) as a percentage to the market value of the tier:
P0 - 25.0% to 66.7% P1 - 0.025% to 1.33% P2 - 1.64% to 12.0% P3 - 0.0257% to 0.072% P4 - 6.67% to 12.5%
Summary:
- P1 tariff rates are even lower today then they are on TQ - which means P1 harvest worlds will be even less viable as a taxable resource then initially thought.
- P3 tariff rates are ridiculously low.
Suggestions (assuming hi-sec tariffs are left at the "10%" setting):
- P0 tariff should be 0.40 / 0.80 in hi-sec (not 0.50/1.00)
- P1 tariff should be 40 / 80 per unit in hi-sec.
- P2 tariff should be 500 / 1000 per unit in hi-sec
- P3 tariff should be 5000 / 10000 per unit in hi-sec
- P4 tariff is fine (or take it up 25-50% to encourage building outside of hi-sec).
- If the allowed tariff rate is 0-20%, then the hi-sec CO tariff rate of 10% is okay. But if the allowed tariff rate is 0-100%, then the hi-sec tariff rates are way too low and need to be boosted to 50%. (In which case, all of the above numbers should be divided by 4.)
- The goal of hi-sec tariffs should be that they are high enough to reward a move to null/low in order to reduce taxes, high enough that a low-sec POCO can be viable and competitive for a P1 harvest planet, and generally in the range of 10-20% of existing/traditional market values for that tier when done in hi-sec.
|
Ottman
LoneWolf Mining Veni Vidi Vici Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:14:00 -
[97] - Quote
okay ccp, i will just spend as much money as i need not to loose accounts, that means two 60 days gtc for next year, means 4 plexes for two accounts, just to keep the accounts definetly saved and i hope you will learn the lesson, i make step back from monthly subscription, because that poco bullshitting begs for punishment, i just stop playing and watch you falling on your nose ccp, and its obvious you will, because griefing at the backbone where all depends on is epic fail, and that means you are under close watching what will happen after the winter expansion, if the things go havoc as many ppl see it coming then you ccp guys know what will happen, many others will just say cya and stop playing, must you loose more employees before you understand what you can do with this community and what not ? its the first time in over six years now that i am not looking forward to an expansion, and that means something for sure... sometimes ppl learn only when **** hits the fan, you got warned more than one time ccp, you cant tell something else afterwards, and tbh if you ccp guys are later crying " we didnt know" then i know definetly eve online is done for because liars you cant depend on.
MfG Ottman |
ThAIndusty
Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:18:00 -
[98] - Quote
You where doing such a good job for the winter expansion but this is a total waste of effort and time. it almost makes me hate the upcomming patch... i do PI only for making pos fuel for corp posses and i am not going to bother with setting up a PO if the interbus one is being shut down cause it are defenceless structures wich will make the job i do for my corp even more horrible and time consuming as it already is.
This change just sucks and a lot of people hate it as is clear in the comments already made. Why do you keep pushing this on when 75% doesn't want it? Are you so blind that when you think you have a good idea but the biggest portion of the community is against it you still have the need to push it through? It really makes no sense to me....
|
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
120
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:22:00 -
[99] - Quote
Might I advise you potentially start making use for the pirate tags and implement that they also have the blueprints as well?
Maybe they have faction ones that have special perks?
It's not Rocket Surgery |
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
23
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:26:00 -
[100] - Quote
Ya Huei wrote:Aynen wrote:From how I understand it, the survival of Ninja PI in wh space depends upon how many wormhole corps find it worth the effort to destroy the existing costums offices and put into place their own. If most of them do this, then that's the end of Ninja wormhole PI, if most of them don't, we're all good. It's not about it being worth the effort. It's about getting rid of pesky freeloaders, and making the PI products more valuable. I personally hope all WH corps with lowsec/highsec statics start popping the old school Customs offices on day 1 of the winter expansion.
I doubt it. First you need the replacements. Since you have to get the BPCs, then build the darn things, before you can deploy them, and if you have say 5 or 6 planets, you have to have everything needed to build all those items then get them in place. Very time consuming. Plus the danger of losing out on what you do have and having a down time where you can't produce fuel for your POS.
This is by no means a complain/whine (though it sounds like it). Just from a logistics point of view, it will be tough for us to get this working quickly in our unknown space.
I may have missed it in all this but are the BPOs being seeded ahead of time so we have opportunity to get production ready for these? That would be very beneficial I think. (thinking of the new BCs coming in to unknown to smash old customs offices for sh**s and giggles - I know I would)
|
|
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:28:00 -
[101] - Quote
@ Omen....... player driven?
So what you want is for players to sort out PI production and costs for themselves?............i thought that's where we were at now!
All I can see is you driving players ( only those in sufficiently big corps/alliances of course ) to erect costly and hard to defend structures for little or no gain, if not a total loss |
Via Shivon
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
19
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:28:00 -
[102] - Quote
ThAIndusty wrote:
Why do you keep pushing this on when 75% doesn't want it? Are you so blind that when you think you have a good idea but the biggest portion of the community is against it you still have the need to push it through? It really makes no sense to me....
LoL YOU are not 75% of eve... only because after the expasion not every freaking 20 day old char can earn EVERYwere 400m+++ a month with little efford to PI?
MOAH Tears lol...
I wanne see the "Incursion nerf tears" !! |
Ethanole
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:29:00 -
[103] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Current tariffs in high-security space - as of today - on Singularity:
P0 Aqua - 0.50 / 1.00 per unit (import/export) P1 Oxygen - 0.10 / 0.20 per unit P2 Coolant - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P2 Mech Parts - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P3 Robotics - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P4 Broadcast Node - 50,000 / 100,000 per unit
Math:
- P0:P1 unit ratio is 3000:20 (150:1), volume ratio is 30:7.6 m3 (3.95:1) - P1:P2 unit ratio is 80:5 (16:1), volume ratio is 30.4:7.5 m3 (4.05:1) - P2:P3 unit ratio is either 20:3 or 30:3, volume ratio is either 30 m3 or 45 m3 into 18 m3 - P3:P4 unit ratio is 12:1 or 18:1, volume ratio is between 87-108 m3 vs 100 m3
Current prices on TQ:
P0 - 1.50-4.00 P1 - 150-800 (traditionally 120-600) P2 - 4500-11000 (traditionally 4000-7500) P3 - 25000-70000 P4 - 800k to 1500k (traditionally 600k-1200k)
New export tariffs (in hi-sec) as a percentage to the market value of the tier:
P0 - 25.0% to 66.7% P1 - 0.025% to 1.33% P2 - 1.64% to 12.0% P3 - 0.0257% to 0.072% P4 - 6.67% to 12.5%
Summary:
- P1 tariff rates are even lower today then they are on TQ - which means P1 harvest worlds will be even less viable as a taxable resource then initially thought.
- P3 tariff rates are ridiculously low.
Suggestions (assuming hi-sec tariffs are left at the "10%" setting):
- P0 tariff should be 0.40 / 0.80 in hi-sec (not 0.50/1.00)
- P1 tariff should be 40 / 80 per unit in hi-sec.
- P2 tariff should be 500 / 1000 per unit in hi-sec
- P3 tariff should be 5000 / 10000 per unit in hi-sec
- P4 tariff is fine (or take it up 25-50% to encourage building outside of hi-sec).
- If the allowed tariff rate is 0-20%, then the hi-sec CO tariff rate of 10% is okay. But if the allowed tariff rate is 0-100%, then the hi-sec tariff rates are way too low and need to be boosted to 50%. (In which case, all of the above numbers should be divided by 4.)
- The goal of hi-sec tariffs should be that they are high enough to reward a move to null/low in order to reduce taxes, high enough that a low-sec POCO can be viable and competitive for a P1 harvest planet, and generally in the range of 10-20% of existing/traditional market values for that tier when done in hi-sec.
Note emptyquoting, this post explains about everything that's wrong with tax rates/tariffs, also take into account that nobody sane imports/exports P0 (the volume requires a freighter to be profitable and installing P1 factories is more profitable) and thus the most imported/exported articles are P1, P2 and P3. (P4 is fine as it stands). |
O'Relie
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:29:00 -
[104] - Quote
Hey CCP. These changes look good, and this should definitely make PI a much more challenging profession. I look forward to the market volatility. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:31:00 -
[105] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:Also, I still think this is a pretty terrible idea you are trying to impose especially in low sec and NPC zero sec. PI in its current implementation is incredible limited and consist of moving dots around and pressing a few buttons. Simplistic, tedious and boring gameplay will many agree to. But some find it interesting game play anyhow, just like some people enjoy mining. PI (on the planet) can easily be done by a solo or small corporation which gives them purpose.
Now you brilliant idea is forcing these people either into a gameplay that is pretty much the opposite of the current PI (adrenaline pumping ship to ship combat) or the option to abandon PI altogether (on their way to doing the same with EVE in general). I seriously cannot see the selling point in limiting peopleGÇÖs access to one game feature by letting another be able to rule over it. That is the reason why Darkfall is crap if you are interests are in crafting and market mechanics because hackGÇÖnGÇÖslash rule all. Same reason why people who enjoy fighting against other players hate when they are forced into PvE raids to get gear for these fights.
Within a month or so we will see one blob of players identifying what PI mineral is the bottleneck, stock it up and then wipe out all POCOs in low sec, or take them over to exclude everybody else, for that particular mineral. Or we will see the Goons doing us all a favor by rapidly destroying each and every POCO in low sec.
Fundamentally; did you seriously believe people would get more interested in PI when you do not improve on the actual PI mechanics but instead limits peopleGÇÖs access to them? What kind of player are you hoping to draw in with this?
If PvP should be a greater element in PI it should have be done on the darn planets.
Double-Liking this post. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
127
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:31:00 -
[106] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Current tariffs in high-security space - as of today - on Singularity:
P0 Aqua - 0.50 / 1.00 per unit (import/export) P1 Oxygen - 0.10 / 0.20 per unit P2 Coolant - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P2 Mech Parts - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P3 Robotics - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P4 Broadcast Node - 50,000 / 100,000 per unit
:speechless:
Surely this is a bug? |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:34:00 -
[107] - Quote
Floydd Heywood wrote:Rommiee wrote:To quote from the latest blog GÇ£One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removedGÇ¥
What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?
The GÇ£NewGÇ¥ CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not. Love it how people will pretend everyone is of their opinion without any factual basis. About 20 of those pages were people saying they liked the feature as it was initially announced. Another 50 pages was people asking for the changes now implemented. Maybe the remaining 10 pages were people asking for changes that were now not implemented, or were simply whining. Only because CCP doesn't fulfill every wish someone utters on the forums, doesn't mean they "ignore the playerbase"
You really haven't been paying attention. |
Cailais
Rekall Incorporated
124
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:36:00 -
[108] - Quote
Overall looks good. The size of the gantry might be an issue in terms of how easy they are to move around but thats a relatively small point.
Love the idea of being able to exchange ownership of these things - v nice addition!
C. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 15:51:00 -
[109] - Quote
Via Shivon wrote:ThAIndusty wrote:
Why do you keep pushing this on when 75% doesn't want it? Are you so blind that when you think you have a good idea but the biggest portion of the community is against it you still have the need to push it through? It really makes no sense to me....
LoL YOU are not 75% of eve... only because after the expasion not every freaking 20 day old char can earn EVERYwere 400m+++ a month with little efford to PI? MOAH Tears lol... I wanne see the "Incursion nerf tears" !!
5/10 troll. You're looking at valid complaints and laughing as if they don't matter BECAUSE THEY'RE COMPLAINTS. Put your big boy pants on, take an objective look at what's being done, and think about how it applies to the community as a whole. YOU are also not 75% of the eve population. |
Iosue
UV Heavy Industries STR8NGE BREW
19
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:01:00 -
[110] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:"People will grief the Interbus COs" That is quite probable, even with this change of deployment, our guiding light is that EVE is player driven. This way the transition between NPC owned and Player owned will be smoother. It's no silver bullet and balancing between player driven and player convenience is very difficult. Our hope remain that you, the player will organize and sort out the supply and demand of PI goods and the availability of Customs Offices. If that does not happen, and there is a measurable decline in lowsec or PI activity then we will act. How we act will be decided if that event occurs, but we will not simply let lowsec die. We strive to invigorate lowsec, not just with this feature but for the long run. You may disagree that this feature will accomplish that, but that is never the less one of our goals and we will monitor how it pans out.
I understand, however, i think there should be some measurable consequence for the act of blowing up an NPC or other player corp's CO's. CCP has always tried to implement changes with both benefits and consequences, this helps ensure an equilibrium in player actions.
Not sure if this has been suggested or implemented, but i propose that a player's sec status with Concord be affected negatively if they blow up an NPC or POCO (if they are not at war) in lo-sec. If the attacker makes a war dec, then they should have no negative hit for the destruction to a POCO, but they would still get the negative hit for an NPC CO. |
|
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
419
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:06:00 -
[111] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Two step wrote:I like this change. Do the interbus offices just blow up? Do they have the same HP as regular offices? Yes and yes.
Do the interbus offices generate a killmail? CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog What does CSM 6 do? |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:09:00 -
[112] - Quote
Iosue wrote:
I understand, however, i think there should be some measurable consequence for the act of blowing up an NPC or other player corp's CO's. CCP has always tried to implement changes with both benefits and consequences, this helps ensure an equilibrium in player actions.
Not sure if this has been suggested or implemented, but i propose that a player's sec status with Concord be affected negatively if they blow up an NPC or POCO (if they are not at war) in lo-sec. If the attacker makes a war dec, then they should have no negative hit for the destruction to a POCO, but they would still get the negative hit for an NPC CO.
+1
Risk versus reward, remember? Since when is it ok to allow players to blow up the property of other players in lowsec with zero consequences? |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
268
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:12:00 -
[113] - Quote
I forsee a downward trend of interbuss assets in the future.
People wining about how this will end PI should try to be less whiny and more enterpreneury. - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:16:00 -
[114] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:@ Omen....... player driven?
So what you want is for players to sort out PI production and costs for themselves?............i thought that's where we were at now!
All I can see is you driving players ( only those in sufficiently big corps/alliances of course ) to erect costly and hard to defend structures for little or no gain, if not a total loss
A lot of the math has been done on the assumption that the owner wouldn't be hauling loads of goodies off the POCO. If CCP is thinking that these changes are okay based on the assumption that people/corp/alliances would be making money off the PI goods, I can see why they are sitting there with a blank stare on their faces wondering what all the fuss is about.
There are still issues unaddressed. This is a nerf to low-sec population still. You're changing easy money to money in low-sec to a riskier venture than putting up a tower. At least the tower can try to defend itself. This feature is still broken for low-sec most of all. If you haven't gotten the message by now, you're not going to get it.
The chaos is coming. |
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:23:00 -
[115] - Quote
1) Are there any improvements in the works to make planetary launches a viable means of operating PI jobs? Notably increases to the storage/launch capability of the Command Centers?
2) Are there any improvements in the works to make PCOs accessible via alternative means such as hacking?
3) Are there any reprecussions for griefing LowSec PCOs (player owned, not Interbus)? Are these just giant pinata's for LowSec entities to shoot when they are bored?
4) When you destroy a PCO, do any of the player's goods that are just hanging out in it have the chance to drop? |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
247
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:24:00 -
[116] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:
There are still issues unaddressed. This is a nerf to low-sec population still. You're changing easy money to money in low-sec to a riskier venture than putting up a tower. At least the tower can try to defend itself. This feature is still broken for low-sec most of all. If you haven't gotten the message by now, you're not going to get it.
The chaos is coming.
This is where you're wrong.
This is a buff to lowsec residency.
Plucking the freely available rich fruit of lowsec PI and running off to hisec with it is the problem. If you want lowsec PI now you better be ready to build it, own it, and defend it. You can't just come in and harvest it and then leave any longer.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:37:00 -
[117] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:
There are still issues unaddressed. This is a nerf to low-sec population still. You're changing easy money to money in low-sec to a riskier venture than putting up a tower. At least the tower can try to defend itself. This feature is still broken for low-sec most of all. If you haven't gotten the message by now, you're not going to get it.
The chaos is coming.
This is where you're wrong. This is a buff to lowsec residency. Plucking the freely available rich fruit of lowsec PI and running off to hisec with it is the problem. If you want lowsec PI now you better be ready to build it, own it, and defend it. You can't just come in and harvest it and then leave any longer. Right, so I build it for ~26mil (factoring in LP cost) + build cost in materials, place it, and while offline it gets hit by some bored entities in and around LowSec who are flying around trolling for a fight. Obviously, outside of my timezone, so no fight occurs during the initial reinforcement.
So, comes out of reinforcement on my timezone and now... 1) Bring in Carriers into lowsec on an undefended planet to rep a PCO? Ha, bullshit unless I have some supers in the wings waiting. 2) Bring in logistics and a defense force capable of being mustered for a LowSec entity (10-20 pilots max)? Only real option, so lets play that out...
2a.... Hostiles don't show and blows the entire nights activities trying to rep the damn thing with Logistics... 2b.... Hostiles show BUT they don't give a damn about negative security status while we do, so they control the entire tempo of the fight... any friends we have coming along, etc... can't really partake without taking the security hits unless they attack first? 2c.... All parties don't care of security status, and *maybe* a battle occurs...
The only real "buff" to Low Security that I see here are the entities that operate on the negative side of CONCORD are at an advantage to run the planets, and they effectively now have a means to build infrastructure and charge for it. Due to the ability to control access though, it makes it too risky for carebears to really invest too much time and energy as there is always the possibility that the owner will cut off access and you will have to go through the eye gougingly painful process of winding down the planet using the launches (or more realistically just burn your investment and move elsewhere). For those who prefer to spend the majority of their time doing other things and PI was a fun side game, the only real viable options are Nullsec or empire after this change.
Ironically, it does further buff NPC corps as private corps like mine could be set red, but I don't think you can set noobie corps red? Those running Lowsec PCO's will have an all or none option with NPC corps (block/open all neutral) unless they want to control standings on individual players at a corporate level (now there's a nightmare!). |
VaL Iscariot
The Concilium Enterprises Spectrum Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:49:00 -
[118] - Quote
hmmmm... Well, guess i better get that torp Naga fit up. Got some structures to bash.
Really though, considering the price of these structures, the risk, and roles required for them, I suspect you won't see a great many of them. I can see them being fought over at every Plasma planet in low sec, but that's all. If a corp found a good system and wanted to move in there, I could see them bringing one or two in, but not many more then that.
|
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:51:00 -
[119] - Quote
reserved back in 5 |
Le BigMac
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:59:00 -
[120] - Quote
I'm a bit concerned about the bpc pricing in the LP shops.
Dev blog says 3k LP + 10mil isk in faction warfare LP shops and 6k LP + 20mil isk in the CONCORD shop.
Now, 3k vs. 6k LP is fine by me, but where did the 10mil vs. 20mil pricing come from?
As it stands, given the going rate for FW LP, the custom office bpc's will end up costing less than 20mil anyway, and therefore it would be pointless to buy them from anywhere other than FW LP stores.
So is there even a point to have them in the CONCORD LP shop then?
For other items that require both isk and LP, if you look at FW stores vs. regular LP stores selling the same item, you notice that the LP requirements in the FW one are lower, but the isk costs are the same (for instance, a Navy Mega bpc costs 500k LP + 200mil in the Fed Navy LP store and 250K LP + 200mil in the FDU LP store)!
When you (CCP) implemented that I guess the reasoning was so that you wouldn't impose a "hard cash" limitation on LP value.
My suggestion: make the isk requirement for the BPCs the same in CONCORD and FW LP shops. Whether that's 10 mil, or 20mil, or somewhere inbetween - it's all the same. |
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
546
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:05:00 -
[121] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:
There are still issues unaddressed. This is a nerf to low-sec population still. You're changing easy money to money in low-sec to a riskier venture than putting up a tower. At least the tower can try to defend itself. This feature is still broken for low-sec most of all. If you haven't gotten the message by now, you're not going to get it.
The chaos is coming.
This is where you're wrong. This is a buff to lowsec residency. Plucking the freely available rich fruit of lowsec PI and running off to hisec with it is the problem. If you want lowsec PI now you better be ready to build it, own it, and defend it. You can't just come in and harvest it and then leave any longer.
Nonsense, and you know it. You can't use denial methods to push people into living in low sec, null sec, etc. They'll simply stop going, because they have no desire to live there in the first place. They may want it, but not at the cost of giving up the playstyle that they enjoy the most.
This WILL reduce people travelling into low sec. It's inevitable. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
102
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:08:00 -
[122] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:
This WILL reduce people travelling into low sec. It's inevitable.
True. The Stick Method never worked and never will.
Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Toramt
Innovating Vulcans
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:15:00 -
[123] - Quote
Esan Vartesa wrote: Risk versus reward, remember? Since when is it ok to allow players to blow up the property of other players in lowsec with zero consequences?
The NPC stations in lowsec are there just as a 'shim' to ease the transition between the old model and the new model, so it is entirely reasonable that there is no penalty for removing them as they aren't supposed to exist long-term. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
50
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:17:00 -
[124] - Quote
since I still can't get a CCP comment, I'm gonna repost in full from S&I / previous info portal thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33468&find=unread
I went through and got some numbers on sisi regarding highsec CO changes and nullsec POCOs. Highsec COs have indeed had all their import/export taxes doubled. The sisi export tax rate is 200 isk/m3 or 1200 isk/u for p3's (like robo), and 12 isk/m3 or 18 isk/u for p2's (like coolant). This corresponds to a "10%" tax rate in highsec on sisi. The sisi tax rate is essentially a joke number: it's based on a reference value that doesn't place any importance on the "market value" or "maximizing profit" aspects of the game at all. If we assume the p3 is Robotics (70k isk/u) and that the p2 (say, Mech Parts) is worth 10k isk/u, then the p3 tax rate is actually 1.7% and the p2 tax rate is a laughable 0.18% based on market values.
With current market prices, a POCO costs about 100m isk to fully deploy/upgrade (including BPC LP value). Unfortunately, the tax rate can not be set above 100%. Since the highsec values correspond to "10%", just imagine highsec x10 as the highest tax you can set on a POCO. If you have reds set to 100% tax rates and the reds are exporting p1s or p2s, they aren't going to care about the miniscule tax. On p3's a 100% tax rate is actually a fairly sizable hit, but not enough to stop a user if they don't have other easily accessible options, because what the heck, "my time is free". A 100% tax rate nullsec POCO is almost certainly more profitable than a highsec POCO doing extraction just because of nullsec abundancies. p1 extraction in nullsec is laughably cheap even at "100%" POCO tax rate. It's about 0.912 isk/u, which if you're extracting chiral corresponds to about a .12% market tax rate. It can essentially be ignored.
What does this mean for the overall market? Let's look at daily Jita volumes and assume an average "20%" tax rate for nullsec/lowsec POCOs. If half the PI supply comes from nullsec/lowsec, we can guesstimate how much prices should rise after an equilibrium is reached -- when POCOs have been deployed on all planets players have interest in, and when the market has evened out so that producers are making about as much profit (in isk/u) as they are now. Yeah, not totally realistic, but w/e it makes for an easier estimating. The rise is not that much, only about 1200 isk/u based on pure export value ( surprised? :math: ) for Robo, plus whatever trickle-up effect you get from more expensive p1/p2 supply and import costs. Call it about 2,000 isk/u overall. In short, if nullsec/lowsec taxes are not pretty much all set to 100%, the effect JUST FROM TAX CHANGES will not be a big deal. If everyone sets POCO tax rates to 100%, the effect is more amusing -- over a 10% rise in price -- but since most p3s are made in highsec that scenario is unrealistic. People buying PI goods to build POCOs and the disruption as POCOs are set up or fought over will have a much greater near-term impact on the PI market. Since PI is boring, it's likely that the near-term spike could be quite long lived. But any changes in price should be attributed to the setup and fighting over POCOs themselves, not to tax changes.
Can an alliance make isk from taxing POCOs in their region? Let's assume it supplies the entire Jita market with enriched uranium. That's about 1m units/day. At 100% tax rates (heh), that would be about 180m isk/day for the alliance, or 5.4b/month. That's a ridiculous scenario and it's still only a fraction of a tech moon. Basically, POCOs are terrible for alliance income until their handling of taxes is SUBSTANTIALLY changed by CCP, or the reference values for taxes reset way, way upward. Oh, and if your "20%" tax rate POCO has users exporting 100,000 units of p2s PER DAY (heh), it will still take a month to recoup costs of putting it there in the first place.
WHAT CAN BE DONE? Well, as I mentioned in two older, less-wordy posts: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=208048#post208048 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=224363#post224363 CCP needs to give the POCO owners greater control over the exact taxes. I would recommend the following:
FIRST: reset the default "reference tax values" to represent full Winter 2011 market value of the average good for that tier, instead of the fantasy values they currently have. This would have two immediate effects: increasing the isk paid by users of highsec COs (an increase of an isk SINK, which your economist should love), and increasing the range of isk values over which POCOs can be taxed. This is the easy, no-brainer option.
SECOND: give the POCO owner the ability to change those "reference tax values", per tier (p0/p1/p2/p4 goods). This is an expansion of the current fairly nice POCO configuration menu and would allow POCO owners total flexibility in setting their tax rates, saving future game balance headaches. Just let the players handle the market, as it should be. Note: if allowing different reference values would screw up your interface for displaying tax rates to the user, then allow tax rates over 100% (and adjust default reference values!).
If CCP does not do this, there are SERIOUS FUTURE GAME DESIGN PROBLEMS which will crop up: Problem 1: nobody likes POCOs. Corporate joes bug their corp CEO or alliance CEO to put POCOs up, because PI is important to some poor people. However, the corps and alliances hate the things because they can not provide good income, have to be deployed in dozens/hundreds of places, and sometimes get shot at. They are Not Fun. Problem 2: nobody cares about POCOs. If they don't generate corp/alliance income, and if they're trivial to replace, nobody is going to bother to reinforce them, or defend/kill them when they are somehow reinforced.
(also, interbus COs everywhere? this will kill any interest in putting up POCOs, they are now basically worthless) |
Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:21:00 -
[125] - Quote
VaL Iscariot wrote:hmmmm... Well, guess i better get that torp Naga fit up. Got some structures to bash.
Torp Naga! HAHAHAHAHA. CCP Screwed us on that one also look at the Crucible expansion page it's right next to the Nerfing of PI feature.
http://www.eveonline.com/en/crucible
Oh wait there isn't any!
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
248
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:24:00 -
[126] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
This WILL reduce people travelling into low sec. It's inevitable.
True. The Stick Method never worked and never will.
And I still maintain that people travelling into lowsec to scoop PI and leave again mean absolutely nothing to lowsec.
You don't live there. You don't participate in the economy there. You don't play the game in there. All you do is cloak your way in, cloak your way out and extract profit.
You add nothing by being there, you'll subtract nothing by leaving. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Ore Grinder
Star-Gate Command
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:25:00 -
[127] - Quote
Why not have whoever NPC owns SOV in that system take ownership of the customs office rather than concord? This way you could base taxes on NPC faction standings. Those who want less taxes need to grind for better standings to make more of a profit from PI. Those who do not have the standings suffer the higher taxes.
If the customs offices in low-sec are destroyable, they will be killed on day one. They need to remain. If you want your own customs office you have to be in Null Sec, just like stations. Many people are complaining that this will kill low sec PI and they have good reason. It stands to reason that nobody will protect them for the cost construction vs the influx of taxes. Not in low sec anyway. |
Danny Centauri
Baltic Eagle
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:30:00 -
[128] - Quote
So worst case scenario this fails completely in lowsec and all of the PI is done in highsec with high taxes and PI price inflation? Doesn't sound so bad to me to be honest.
If PI prices go up then POS's will be more expensive to run and invention costs will go up which means inflation in T2 ship prices. Rising PI prices will effect the low end materials the most such as titanium diborite and the other racial armor plates this is where the price increases will be seen. If anything may also expect prices of the high end moon goo to drop initially as T2 production drops.
In the end it will all work its self out, not running for the hills and screaming OMG EVE-O recession any time soon.
Edit: Also if T2 ship prices increase then more people will choose to fly T1 ships and mineral prices will go flying up, especially with new T1 BCs entering the market. Really interesting time to be a trader so much is being changed its hard to predict the actual effects! |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
249
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:30:00 -
[129] - Quote
Ore Grinder wrote:... Many people are complaining that this will kill low sec PI and they have good reason. It stands to reason that nobody will protect them for the cost construction vs the influx of taxes. Not in low sec anyway.
Ask yourself how many of these "many people" actually live in lowsec with their corporations?
Ingvar Angst, one of the more vocal? No, he lives in a wormhole.
Another guy admitted his 3 mains live in 0.0, but he complained that his "other 5 alts" are in lowsec doing PI. He doesn't live there either. He just has alts there.
This change will give people LIVING in lowsec with their mains an extra reason to live there, and something to call their own. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Shinzann
Dead poets society The Laughing Men
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:32:00 -
[130] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:From the ass-end of wormhole space comes a great collective sigh of relief.
QFT. Indeed. Having them not despawn is a source of much relief to me. BTW, what tax will Interbus be charging?
|
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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
249
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:41:00 -
[131] - Quote
Digital Gaidin wrote: ... (I'm trimming most of that stuff above to hit the heart of the matter)...
2c.... All parties don't care of security status, and *maybe* a battle occurs...
If you lived in lowsec, (which by the tone of your post, you don't), you'd know that this would be the case.
People living in low sec are familiar with how easy it is to both lose AND repair sec status. Taking GCC occasionally is part of life in lowsec. There's no reason to fear it, its merely a game mechanic to work around when on stations or at gates. Anywhere else a battle occurs in lowsec, no one cares who shot first.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
iudex
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:47:00 -
[132] - Quote
3000 FW LP + 10k isk ... seems quite cheap. WTS 330 blueprints, 15 mil. each.
Why do you make them cheaper than a drake, how about 50.000 FW LP and 100.000 CONCORD LP per blueprint instead ? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
127
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:56:00 -
[133] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Current tariffs in high-security space - as of today - on Singularity:
P0 Aqua - 0.50 / 1.00 per unit (import/export) P1 Oxygen - 0.10 / 0.20 per unit P2 Coolant - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P2 Mech Parts - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P3 Robotics - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P4 Broadcast Node - 50,000 / 100,000 per unit
You have the number for robotics wrong. It is 1200 isk as expected for me. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
546
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:56:00 -
[134] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Ore Grinder wrote:... Many people are complaining that this will kill low sec PI and they have good reason. It stands to reason that nobody will protect them for the cost construction vs the influx of taxes. Not in low sec anyway. Ask yourself how many of these "many people" actually live in lowsec with their corporations? Ingvar Angst, one of the more vocal? No, he lives in a wormhole. Another guy admitted his 3 mains live in 0.0, but he complained that his "other 5 alts" are in lowsec doing PI. He doesn't live there either. He just has alts there. This change will give people LIVING in lowsec with their mains an extra reason to live there, and something to call their own.
Kitty's right, I live in a hole. But I can think outside the hole as well.
Perhaps you're right that the few people in low won't miss those folks entering low for PI. Perhaps low is better off with less traffic, with less people even sticking their feet in there for small dips... people that may someday decide to stay longer. Who knows? Maybe low is already over-crowded enough and you don't have the resources to spare to people venturing in from high sec for PI. I suppose that's all possible.
But perhaps you're wrong. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
142
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:57:00 -
[135] - Quote
Listened to feedback my ass.
Here is what will happen: 1. Everybody gets in on action to start with, milk and honey flowing freely .. for a month or less. 2. Then comes the null blobs and vaporize offices at all high value planets in low-sec areas near (or far from) their space. - this is a given since you insisted on making it an EHP mechanic which caters SOLELY to the null blobs. 2a. Null blocs will get all offices at cost thanks to the swarm of alts they have had farming FW missions due to the idiocy that is 25k LP for 5 minutes in a solo-bomber. 2b. There is a very slim chance that blobs will fight over some low-sec planets but it will be a rarity due to them probably having access to same in their backyard. 3. Null blocs get de facto monopoly on all the critical PI products and thus get even fatter from yet another passive revenue source with which they can manipulate markets.
So a job well done. Not only have you managed to give null blocs 100% control of T2 production, now you hand them the keys to all PI production as well .... let me guess, you are currently considering options as to how to best give them control of all T3 products as well without it looking like you are doing so intentionally? |
Sanche Tehkeli
Bionesis Technologies Electus Matari
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:05:00 -
[136] - Quote
Dunno if these questions have been answered, still :
- What happen to goods in Reinforced POCOs ? Or, are POCOs still accessible while in reinforced mode, in order to move goods away ?
- Are goods in hangar jettisoned when POCOs are destroyed ?
- Are players with Planetary Installations (not necessarily from owner corp) somewhat warned when their planet's POCO is assaulted ? How to know we have to evacuate goods from POCOs before they get destroyed ?
- Are POCO grids completely static or is there a plan to be able to set a new POCO at different coordinates ?
- Are POCOs allowed to have names ?
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
361
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:14:00 -
[137] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Scrapyard Bob wrote:Current tariffs in high-security space - as of today - on Singularity:
P0 Aqua - 0.50 / 1.00 per unit (import/export) P1 Oxygen - 0.10 / 0.20 per unit P2 Coolant - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P2 Mech Parts - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P3 Robotics - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P4 Broadcast Node - 50,000 / 100,000 per unit
You have the number for robotics wrong. It is 1200 isk as expected for me.
Thanks, good catch - have updated my original post (#96): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=364672#post364672
P1 tariffs are still ridiculously low.
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
128
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:17:00 -
[138] - Quote
It also varies from P1 to P1. Try bacteria vs oxygen, for example.
I hope this is just a sign that they are playing with the numbers. I bug reported it just in case. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
120
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:17:00 -
[139] - Quote
There is still a serious concern over the destruction mechanic.
Anyone can reinforce these pretty easily. Then, you are forced to come and defend and rally for a defense that may never come with an attack. Essentially, you can get griefed by just getting a crap ton of your POCO's attacked, reinforced and then blue-balled.
You need a better re-inforcement mechanic than the one you're currently using.
There's ONE major flaw you need to fix
#1 - in null sec the reinforcement mechanics work with the DEFENDER HAVING A DECISION - destroy the SBU's before the system is vulnerable.
There is NO CHOICE for the Defenders in this case. They HAVE TO DEFEND when the ATTACKER dictates. That is wrong. You need to give the defenders a choice!
Please, look into giving a Defenders a CHOICE to defend with, rather than a totally exposed and easily griefed liability! NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Digital Gaidin
Manetheren Rising
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:22:00 -
[140] - Quote
To the above, Attackers always should dictate when the battle occurs. Defenders are reactionary by nature. |
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Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:25:00 -
[141] - Quote
Meh, I actually uses the PI products I produce to fuel my low sec POS so I can process and produce boosters. But I can see you already got your fingers in your ears.
This is no biggie for my personal game interests as I can easily produce the fuel I need in high sec from now on and then move it to low for my POS. But it still annoys me that the game concept behind POCOs falls flat on its face in regard to the "lessons learned" by CCP Greyscale. Oh yes, and that the devs in this thread are admitting that this change is not aimed at improving PI but instead take an underdeveloped and limited game feature and wrap it into different kind of game mechanic to make it even more inaccessible. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
24
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:28:00 -
[142] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
This WILL reduce people travelling into low sec. It's inevitable.
True. The Stick Method never worked and never will. And I still maintain that people travelling into lowsec to scoop PI and leave again mean absolutely nothing to lowsec. You don't live there. You don't participate in the economy there. You don't play the game in there. All you do is cloak your way in, cloak your way out and extract profit. You add nothing by being there, you'll subtract nothing by leaving.
Before I start with the simple 'what economy'? of low sec, you may want to consider that anyone going to low sec, for any reason, besides the ones that 'live there' are adding to the possible economy of Eve. Since low sec is famous for people ganking anyone on sight (not saying this holds true everywhere since I have flown through low sec a few times and have had no problems so far), the more travelers, cloaky ship or not, the more likely there is for someone to be ganked. Which means maybe new modules plus new salvage for someone, new lols, perhaps even a new story about the one that got away or almost got away.
Eve is a game, it should be just as much about the experience as the isk.
I can't agree in any way about the adding or subtracting line. Even a potential encounter adds to the flavour of Eve, and the system it happens in. How do I know that new person with sec status of 5.0 isn't thinking about doing his first gank because I am a juicy target.
If I use low for PI and live in high, it could be that the materials I harvest in low, make their way back to low. Or, the isk I make is used to buy a ship that someone made in low. Or the isk that someone made selling a ship helped them to fund a new customs office bpc purchase or construction materials that they will take to low to set up because low is where they live. Or the isk that someone made from selling their bpc is used to buy the modules for their faction fit t3 battlecruiser. And those modules came from someone who lives in low sec, got the modules there and decided to go to high sec and sell their modules. And now that person has decided to take this brand new bc into low to blow up some customs offices because they don't add anything to the economy of high sec...or something.
It may be that low residents will set up those customs offices, set a tax rate that the average high sec dweller can live with, and make some easy isk letting them use PI, thereby directly injecting isk into the pocket of a low sec resident. And he may still be ganked by that same person/corp, which just adds to the craziness of low sec.
Maybe.
Stories waiting to be written. |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:37:00 -
[143] - Quote
Floydd Heywood wrote:Rommiee wrote:abridged version Love it how people will pretend everyone is of their opinion without any factual basis. About 20 of those pages were people saying they liked the feature as it was initially announced. Another 50 pages was people asking for the changes now implemented. Maybe the remaining 10 pages were people asking for changes that were now not implemented, or were simply whining. Only because CCP doesn't fulfill every wish someone utters on the forums, doesn't mean they "ignore the playerbase"
Where's the factual basis for your numbers? Certainly not in the dev blog. Nearly every single page was littered with complaints, praise, and suggestions, and barely any were actually implemented. The mere implementation of this feature is a highly controversial topic, and, having actually read nearly every page in that particular dev blog, I can safely say that said controversy(the real biggest complaint) has not been addressed in the least.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TL;DR: CCP doesn't discuss their own dev blogs with us enough, IN their own dev blogs.
I like how Team Pi supposedly stayed up all night, reading feedback, when you can breeze through all 80 or so pages in less than 30 minutes(given the number of skip-able +1's, thread fodder, and repeated posts). We need actual discussion with the devs in their own blogs. Blogs aren't newsletters. They are tools you can use to post information, collect feedback, and discuss that feedback, all in the same location.
I'm not sure some of these new features should even have been conceived yet. I see so much constructive criticism from intelligent people on important things like faction warfare and sovereignty, yet what is being done for them?
I don't recall ever thinking to myself "man, I'd love to be able to walk around stations" or "I really want to blow up that customs office..."
No, when I am playing, I think things like "I wish my ****ing drones didn't randomly drop targets just after I call them," "WTF, I'M NOT EVEN NEAR THAT ASTEROID," and "that is definitely more than 2km away from me..."
CCP isn't prioritizing adequately. I understand that some departments are better suited for working on certain areas of the game. But there are problems that multitudes of players are borderline weeping about by this point, and I strongly believe that those issues tend to be the core of what most players really want, regardless of how happy they are about some other niche feature. If that means firing or relocating your vanity staff to help drive the focus solely towards improving existing features instead of releasing new content that probably has more bugs to fix, then so be it. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
128
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:40:00 -
[144] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:There is still a serious concern over the destruction mechanic.
Anyone can reinforce these pretty easily. Then, you are forced to come and defend and rally for a defense that may never come with an attack. Essentially, you can get griefed by just getting a crap ton of your POCO's attacked, reinforced and then blue-balled.
If this happens to you too often, you have too many POCOs too spread out.
And in any case, you are not quite forced to defend. The POCOs have fast shield recharge for a structure: 50k seconds, a bit under 14 hours. I'm not familiar enough with the recharge formula to give you a precise number, but I expect it'll reach 25% (safe level) in 4 hours or so if nobody shoots it. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
249
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:43:00 -
[145] - Quote
Chicken Pizza wrote: I don't recall ever thinking to myself "man, I'd love to be able to walk around stations" or "I really want to blow up that customs office..."
No, when I am playing, I think things like "I wish my ****ing drones didn't randomly drop targets just after I call them," "WTF, I'M NOT EVEN NEAR THAT ASTEROID," and "that is definitely more than 2km away from me..."
I wasn't aware of this until last week either, but they're fixing the drone thing too. Try to stay on topic here. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
363
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:47:00 -
[146] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:It also varies from P1 to P1. Try bacteria vs oxygen, for example. I hope this is just a sign that they are playing with the numbers. I bug reported it just in case.
Interesting, I had tried a few different P2s and they were all the same tariff. Guess I'll have to play on Sisi tomorrow and buy one of everything and test it out. |
Callduron
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:48:00 -
[147] - Quote
I'm really looking forward to the POCO change and I think the new transitional arrangments are pretty sensible.
Regarding some of the complaints:
- you always have the fallback position of operating in high sec which is the default. In particular the crocodile tears being shed on behalf of the newbies are off the mark as newbies generally don't go into dangerous space (at least not for industrialist reasons).
- the economy of Eve should drive conflict and the conflict of Eve should drive the economy. It's great that stuff becomes both destructible and expensive as it makes Eve a better game. Most complaints about the price are moot - if PI becomes more expensive to do prices go up which makes it better, Even for customers if some players get discouraged and stop running POSes you get to make more money in exchange for your increased trouble.
-regarding the transition it seems a reasonable compromise and will spark a rather interesting scramble for good locations.
Clearly it suits adaptable players more than conservative ones. I think that's a good thing though even though my personal little earner will need to be re-thought. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
255
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:52:00 -
[148] - Quote
Anvil44 wrote: It may be that low residents will set up those customs offices, set a tax rate that the average high sec dweller can live with, and make some easy isk letting them use PI, thereby directly injecting isk into the pocket of a low sec resident. And he may still be ganked by that same person/corp, which just adds to the craziness of low sec.
Maybe.
Stories waiting to be written.
That story will be the most likely I think, and its the shade of grey that so many black-or-white-only highsec PI dwellers can't foresee. All they see is the doom of blobs wiping out their CO, or the 100% tax rates of local residents. They can't see rational people putting up COs with acceptable tax rates because they have already ruled out the possibility of anyone rational living in lowsec.
Blobs will get bored of griefing COs - there's no profit in it, or tears if no one defends.
Pirates won't waste money on 100% tax rate offices that no one ever visits because of the 100% tax rates.
It's the middle ground in lowsec where things will get interesting.
Indeed, stories waiting to be written. On with the changes!
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:56:00 -
[149] - Quote
I'm glad to finally see that many of the histerical voices have died down and we can no progress to honest discussion about the supposed change.
Many people in high-sec and null-sec won't see much of a change aside from the initial investment. Most of the problems that have been brought up revolve around low-sec. All of the problems brought to light should be enough to delay the feature in and of themselves. If CCP released a new blog that essentially explained how they intend this feature to stand up to each criticism mentioned, I would say, "ok, you know what you're doing. Carry on." Instead, I am met with NO RESPONSE to the majority of the issues. There have been occasional, "We expect this to happen." remarks without any reason to back them up.
The core issue at hand is that CCP isn't paying attention. It's the same issue that we've been screaming about for years now. To be fair, in some cases, features have come out just fine without much need to adjust. But by and large, things that CCP have done haven't been done with the correct assumptions. This is probably due to them not actually playing the game. While I realize that there are conflict of interests in play, involving CCP with the daily lives of the people they write code for is the only way to ensure that you have a full perspective on what players need versus what players want versus what players neither need nor want.
TLDR; I've said it several times before now. This is more of an, "FYI, we're implenting this feature. Hope it doesn't **** a majority of you in the ass" feature and I'm done trying to explain why this needs held off for AT LEAST another expansion to iron out the details. |
Carai an'Caldazar
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:56:00 -
[150] - Quote
Any chance of making POCO's even slightly hard to find, rather than today where any idiot who knows how to use the Overview can easily identify these objects to grief?
If these were only anchorable on grid with the warp to for the planet, and required someone to actually warp out there and look (similar to POS and IHUB), these might be able to hide through obscurity rather than be easily identifiable targets? If you want them off grid of the Warp-To Planet, make some sort of reference to these requiring placement at a Lagrange point or something and have a seperate warp-in (which has to be manually done to get eyes or clever use of the directional scanner to confirm).
Just a thought. |
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Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:57:00 -
[151] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:
This WILL reduce people travelling into low sec. It's inevitable.
True. The Stick Method never worked and never will. And I still maintain that people travelling into lowsec to scoop PI and leave again mean absolutely nothing to lowsec. You don't live there. You don't participate in the economy there. You don't play the game in there. All you do is cloak your way in, cloak your way out and extract profit. You add nothing by being there, you'll subtract nothing by leaving.
Wow, what color is the nebula in your world? You must be living in Minmatar space if you think that's truly the case.
I have lived in lowsec since my 2nd day playing EvE and I can assure you that this is false. Every single ship even merely passing through contributes to lowsec in some fashion, be it a gate camp waiting for a kill mail and some phat lewt or indirect contributions via the inevitability of all markets depending on each other, or even a simple interaction between players, even if it isn't mutual per s+¬. I bring up the corp history and killboard of every single player I don't recognize in my systems.
PI goods collected in lowsec are often either used in lowsec or moved out to highsec for production or sales. Those products may then be used to build a lowsec resident a new toy or utility. It all comes back around eventually, in some form. |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:02:00 -
[152] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Chicken Pizza wrote: I don't recall ever thinking to myself "man, I'd love to be able to walk around stations" or "I really want to blow up that customs office..."
No, when I am playing, I think things like "I wish my ****ing drones didn't randomly drop targets just after I call them," "WTF, I'M NOT EVEN NEAR THAT ASTEROID," and "that is definitely more than 2km away from me..."
I wasn't aware of this until last week either, but they're fixing the drone thing too. Try to stay on topic here.
It all contributes to my main point that there is a problem outside of the game that needs to be solved in order to better solve the problems in the game. It's 100% relevant to the topic. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
255
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:03:00 -
[153] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:War Kitten wrote:Fah-la-la-laaah, la-la lah lah
Meh, I actually uses the PI products I produce to fuel my low sec POS so I can process and produce boosters. But I can see you already got your fingers in your ears. This is no biggie for my personal game interests as I can easily produce the fuel I need in high sec from now on and then move it to low for my POS. But it still annoys me that the game concept behind POCOs falls flat on its face in regard to the "lessons learned" by CCP Greyscale. Oh yes, and that the devs in this thread are admitting that this change is not aimed at improving PI but instead take an underdeveloped and limited game feature and wrap it into different kind of game mechanic to make it even more inaccessible.
Somehow I doubt the devs "admitted" that they're trying to make PI more inaccessible. I'm guessing you editorialized a bit there.
If you've got the resources to run and defend your POS in low sec, you should have no problem with the COs either. If you don't have the fleet to defend the POS and just rely on the POS defense modules as a deterrent, perhaps I should look you up.... :) This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:08:00 -
[154] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote:War Kitten wrote:Fah-la-la-laaah, la-la lah lah
Meh, I actually uses the PI products I produce to fuel my low sec POS so I can process and produce boosters. But I can see you already got your fingers in your ears. This is no biggie for my personal game interests as I can easily produce the fuel I need in high sec from now on and then move it to low for my POS. But it still annoys me that the game concept behind POCOs falls flat on its face in regard to the "lessons learned" by CCP Greyscale. Oh yes, and that the devs in this thread are admitting that this change is not aimed at improving PI but instead take an underdeveloped and limited game feature and wrap it into different kind of game mechanic to make it even more inaccessible. Somehow I doubt the devs "admitted" that they're trying to make PI more inaccessible. I'm guessing you editorialized a bit there. If you've got the resources to run and defend your POS in low sec, you should have no problem with the COs either. If you don't have the fleet to defend the POS and just rely on the POS defense modules as a deterrent, perhaps I should look you up.... :)
This statement is a perfect example of the kind of bullshit that low-sec POCO operators would have to put up with. I say bullshit, because there is no deterent to keep wandering griefers that have nothing better to do from poking at your structures with no chance for reprisal.
PI operations for P1 materials will die off in low sec and there WILL be a corresponding price flux. This flux will hurt more than CCP is anticipating. |
Damion Rayne
Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes
15
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:09:00 -
[155] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:To quote from the latest blog GÇ£One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removedGÇ¥
What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?
The GÇ£NewGÇ¥ CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not.
I swear you moan like a cheer leader at prom night being had by the whole foot ball team. Teamwork.. Maturity.. Tactics.. www.tacticalgamer.com |
Lateris
Aliastra Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:21:00 -
[156] - Quote
can we walk around in it as some point and leave the pod? Or will that cause another whambulance? |
Bluebear8
DOUBLE IDENTITY Bloodbound.
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:27:00 -
[157] - Quote
I read that dev blog post pretty fast, but I hope it didn't say we have to have loyalty points to buy these things for deployment in NULL SEC. Not everyone runs missions in Empire for LP.
|
Max Devious
EPSYLON FORCE NZAU Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:29:00 -
[158] - Quote
I have a couple of questions.
1. What will be the standings hit for: A. Destroying an InterBus CO in Low Sec B. Destroying a POCO in Low Sec
2. Will we be able to RR an InterBus CO in WH space if it is attacked and we can drive the attackers off?
3. Will InterBus COs repair themselves if attacked but not destroyed?
4. If my POCO is attacked in Low Sec and put into reinforcement, when the attackers return to finish the job will I be able to attack them without a standings hit?
5. Would it be possible to link an attack on a POCO to an automatic wardec against the owning corp with concurrent ISK deduction from corp wallet?
Max. |
Max Kolonko
Worm Nation Ash Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:30:00 -
[159] - Quote
Some questions for CCP Devs:
- If i shoot down POCO will i get the loot from it?
- if the POCO enter reinforced mode, will it be possible to still use it? (import/export/take)
- will POCO reinforced mode require some sort of fuel?
- If someone is using my (my corp) POCO will i get info in wallet who used it (who payed the tax) so i can check on who is ninja-PI'ing me?
- if someone is using my POCO will i get info in wallet what was exported? or just only the walue of tax? (for npc rat bounty we get list of what was killed in wallet)
thnx in advance for answers. And sorry if some was already answered somewhere in the topic |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
106
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:32:00 -
[160] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: "Do you think more people will do PI?" No, as many have pointed out the PI gameplay in itself is far from perfect and we are absolutely not trying to make people do PI. The player owned customs offices are meant to increase meaningful space conflict and the verisimilitude of the EVE universe. Actual improvements to PI is an entirely different topic. Having said that, we are hoping for activity to stay somewhat the same.
Regards Omen
First of all I am not even going to question what "we are absolutely not trying to make people do PI" is supposed to mean as I expect Omen is trying to say something different than what he writes.
But he does state that "The player owned customs offices are meant to increase meaningful space conflict" which directly means that POCO has jack to do with improving the PI experience but instead wrap it into "meaningful space conflict" which can mean nothing than making it more inaccessible. Unless "increase conflict" suddenly means "easier to access", of course. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
|
Max Kolonko
Worm Nation Ash Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:33:00 -
[161] - Quote
Bluebear8 wrote:I read that dev blog post pretty fast, but I hope it didn't say we have to have loyalty points to buy these things for deployment in NULL SEC. Not everyone runs missions in Empire for LP.
No it measn that BPO or BPC (not sure here) will be avaible for loyalty points only, and not seeded on market.
Just like the faction ammo is today |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
255
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:35:00 -
[162] - Quote
Chicken Pizza wrote:
Wow, what color is the nebula in your world? You must be living in Minmatar space if you think that's truly the case.
I have lived in lowsec since my 2nd day playing EvE and I can assure you that this is false. Every single ship even merely passing through contributes to lowsec in some fashion, be it a gate camp waiting for a kill mail and some phat lewt or indirect contributions via the inevitability of all markets depending on each other, or even a simple interaction between players, even if it isn't mutual per s+¬. I bring up the corp history and killboard of every single player I don't recognize in my systems.
PI goods collected in lowsec are often either used in lowsec or moved out to highsec for production or sales. Those products may then be used to build a lowsec resident a new toy or utility. It all comes back around eventually, in some form.
The covert haulers must be bad at the game where you live then, or gate camps fully manned with fast decloakers and high scan res tackle if you actually salivate at their arrival. There's nearly 0 risk in jumping anything with a covert ops cloak into a gate camp in low sec.
Such ships passing through merely to stop at a PI office and back out again add to the jumps per hour statistic, but little else.
I'll grant you the economy is interconnected and it all comes back around, but covert ships passing through lowsec briefly add nothing directly to lowsec, and anything that affects them positively or negatively can't be seen as either a positive or negative impact on lowsec. They don't live there, and the 2 UI clicks they perform while vulnerable in lowsec can be performed while already aligning out to the next stargate. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
255
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:43:00 -
[163] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:CCP Omen wrote: "Do you think more people will do PI?" No, as many have pointed out the PI gameplay in itself is far from perfect and we are absolutely not trying to make people do PI. The player owned customs offices are meant to increase meaningful space conflict and the verisimilitude of the EVE universe. Actual improvements to PI is an entirely different topic. Having said that, we are hoping for activity to stay somewhat the same.
Regards Omen
First of all I am not even going to question what "we are absolutely not trying to make people do PI" is supposed to mean as I expect Omen is trying to say something different than what he writes. But he does state that "The player owned customs offices are meant to increase meaningful space conflict" which directly means that POCO has jack to do with improving the PI experience but instead wrap it into "meaningful space conflict" which can mean nothing than making it more inaccessible. Unless "increase conflict" suddenly means "easier to access", of course.
If you choose the defeatest attitude of seeing "conflict" as meaning "no access", then sure. If you have even a little confidence in your ability to compete, in a competitive and conflict-driven pvp game, then it should mean "challenging". This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
550
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:48:00 -
[164] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Chicken Pizza wrote:
Wow, what color is the nebula in your world? You must be living in Minmatar space if you think that's truly the case.
I have lived in lowsec since my 2nd day playing EvE and I can assure you that this is false. Every single ship even merely passing through contributes to lowsec in some fashion, be it a gate camp waiting for a kill mail and some phat lewt or indirect contributions via the inevitability of all markets depending on each other, or even a simple interaction between players, even if it isn't mutual per s+¬. I bring up the corp history and killboard of every single player I don't recognize in my systems.
PI goods collected in lowsec are often either used in lowsec or moved out to highsec for production or sales. Those products may then be used to build a lowsec resident a new toy or utility. It all comes back around eventually, in some form.
The covert haulers must be bad at the game where you live then, or gate camps fully manned with fast decloakers and high scan res tackle if you actually salivate at their arrival. There's nearly 0 risk in jumping anything with a covert ops cloak into a gate camp in low sec. Such ships passing through merely to stop at a PI office and back out again add to the jumps per hour statistic, but little else. I'll grant you the economy is interconnected and it all comes back around, but covert ships passing through lowsec briefly add nothing directly to lowsec, and anything that affects them positively or negatively can't be seen as either a positive or negative impact on lowsec. They don't live there, and the 2 UI clicks they perform while vulnerable in lowsec can be performed while already aligning out to the next stargate.
So the less you have jumping into low sec the better, is that your position? The don't "contribute" in your opinion, so better they stay out?
Just trying to see where you're coming from. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
108
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 19:52:00 -
[165] - Quote
I never said anything about "no access", did I? I said "making it more inaccessible". But of course we are no at the point where you have to put words in my mouth for you to have any leg to stand whatsoever.
How about you go and refute how POCO mechanics matches ANY of the points made by CCP Greyscale? Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
24
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:02:00 -
[166] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote: buncha stuff
If you choose the defeatest attitude of seeing "conflict" as meaning "no access", then sure. If you have even a little confidence in your ability to compete, in a competitive and conflict-driven pvp game, then it should mean "challenging".
The beauty of Eve is that it is not only a PvP game. It is also PvE. For some it is a simple distraction for socializing purposes. CCP has the difficult task of catering to all aspects of the game. One is not inherently 'more right' or 'better' than another, even if the original intention of Eve was PvP or PvE.
Despite practicing Safe Warping techniques for whenever I am in low/null/wh space, I still make mistakes. I off-lined my cloak in a T3 gate camp once by mistake as the module didn't show it was activated fast enough. Mistakes happen, people get complacent, people get lucky/unlucky. Things happen.
And I still fail to see how living in low sec adds to the low sec economy. I live in unknown space, yet I don't add to the economy there (despite Concord somehow billing me for use of customs office in space they have no presence in whatsoever ) I have never heard of this enclosed economy. Perhaps with some guidance more people would go there to do trading etc. Are there trade hubs there that people commonly use, with some relatively safe chance of doing so?
If it is just a bubble, there is no real economy, it is just a little secluded 'village' trading back and forth amongst themselves. Unless there are lots and lots of people in low sec.
The point is, whether someone warps in and out or warps in and does lots of stuff, then warps out or gets blown up, or just lives there, being in low sec adds to it. I bet there are some people in low sec that are always cloaked and doing very little other than stressing other players out. That doesn't add to the economy either.
I guess we'll just have to wait a few weeks to see how this all starts to play out. No change = stagnation. Change = adaptation and hopefully survival and perhaps prosperity.
I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
256
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:10:00 -
[167] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:I never said anything about "no access", did I? I said "making it more inaccessible". But of course, we are now at the point where you have to put words in my mouth for you to have any leg to stand whatsoever.
How about you go and refute how POCO mechanics matches ANY of the points made by CCP Greyscale?
"no access" and "inaccessible" are the same thing. The words in your mouth are your own.
You can't be "more inaccessible", it is or it isn't. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
256
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:13:00 -
[168] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote: So the less you have jumping into low sec the better, is that your position? The don't "contribute" in your opinion, so better they stay out?
Just trying to see where you're coming from.
They can come and go as they please. I don't care one way or the other.
But don't tell me that they contributed to where I live by passing through. My argument is that by giving lowsec dwellers the ability to put up their own POCO it was a buff to lowsec dwellers, not a nerf to lowsec as so many are claiming. It may be a nerf to their free ride on lowsec assets, but lowsec itself benefits.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Important Internet Spaceship League
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:17:00 -
[169] - Quote
I fully intend to wander around blowing these things up. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
292
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:21:00 -
[170] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:I fully intend to wander around blowing these things up.
How long do you think it will take you to make a dent in the 10's of thousands of Custom's offices that will be out there?
You, my friend, have WAY too much time on your hands.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
|
Maxwell Albritten
Gallente Trade Union Moon Warriors
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:23:00 -
[171] - Quote
The main carebear-tear complaint I'm reading is "oh no, I'm forced to interact with people!" These things aren't going to be so valuable that a 0.0 alliance is going to super-carrier drop your customs station. So, you know, maybe get a contract with a merc corp to defend your stuff. Maybe actually get into a bit of pvp.
I think this could be a good possibility for small-gang pvp and could also make PI valuable enough for me to get interested in it.
But really, why do carebears hate playing with other people so much? |
Kietay Ayari
Monopoly Money Operations
40
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:23:00 -
[172] - Quote
I know people are complaining that his will force you to have to cooperate with other people to do PI but that is not true. You just have to cooperate with other people and take risks with PI if you want to make money with it now. This is how EVERYTHING in EVE should be. I know there are those who say "let me play how I want and you play how you want" But EVE is not this type of game. There are plenty of other games where you can reach max level in a week solo if you want. Sorry but EVE is about your interaction with the player base and that is why it succeeds! :D Ferox #1 |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
314
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:26:00 -
[173] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Here are some replies to topics raised:
"People will grief the Interbus COs" That is quite probable, even with this change of deployment, our guiding light is that EVE is player driven. This way the transition between NPC owned and Player owned will be smoother. It's no silver bullet and balancing between player driven and player convenience is very difficult. Our hope remain that you, the player will organize and sort out the supply and demand of PI goods and the availability of Customs Offices. If that does not happen, and there is a measurable decline in lowsec or PI activity then we will act. How we act will be decided if that event occurs, but we will not simply let lowsec die. We strive to invigorate lowsec, not just with this feature but for the long run. You may disagree that this feature will accomplish that, but that is never the less one of our goals and we will monitor how it pans out.
Regards Omen
"We will not just let low sec die".... Funniest thing I've heard from CCP in a long time. It's been an ex parrot nailed to the perch for years. CCP let low sec die a long time back and now your putting more nails in the perch and claiming the nails will bring it back to life.
Once its dead in low sec you can monitor it all you want but it won't come back and I expect your F-ing over the little guy will add to the slow decline of subscriptions.
I am finally near leaving this game after 8 years. You continue to make low sec worse and worse and I no longer believe anyone in CCP has a clue as to how to fix it. I'll see what happens to PI prices and if it makes supporting the POSs that allow us to build T2 then we'll pull the plug and find another game to spend our time on. I'm just tired of yet another thing being ruined in Eve.
You again cater to the big power blocks and stick it to the little corps, there is no cooperative supply and demand and happy rainbows of folks working together in low sec. There are mostly the worst of the worst gankers. They will be very happy to have the new targets. What they will do once the explode them all and drive everyone out is hard to say.
Omen, you make me sad with you clear lack of understanding of the nature of pilot interactions in Eve, Eve makes people EVIL, not cooperative business partners in space industry.
Issler |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
550
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:30:00 -
[174] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:"We will not just let low sec die".... Funniest thing I've heard from CCP in a long time. It's been an ex parrot nailed to the perch for years. CCP let low sec die a long time back and now your putting more nails in the perch and claiming the nails will bring it back to life.
Once its dead in low sec you can monitor it all you want but it won't come back and I expect your F-ing over the little guy will add to the slow decline of subscriptions.
I am finally near leaving this game after 8 years. You continue to make low sec worse and worse and I no longer believe anyone in CCP has a clue as to how to fix it. I'll see what happens to PI prices and if it makes supporting the POSs that allow us to build T2 then we'll pull the plug and find another game to spend our time on. I'm just tired of yet another thing being ruined in Eve.
You again cater to the big power blocks and stick it to the little corps, there is no cooperative supply and demand and happy rainbows of folks working together in low sec. There are mostly the worst of the worst gankers. They will be very happy to have the new targets. What they will do once the explode them all and drive everyone out is hard to say.
Omen, you make me sad with you clear lack of understanding of the nature of pilot interactions in Eve, Eve makes people EVIL, not cooperative business partners in space industry.
Issler
+1 for Monty Python reference. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
24
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:31:00 -
[175] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:My argument is that by giving lowsec dwellers the ability to put up their own POCO it was a buff to lowsec dwellers, not a nerf to lowsec as so many are claiming. It may be a nerf to their free ride on lowsec assets, but lowsec itself benefits.
^This - is a great point. I just wasn't understanding it until now.
Maxwell Albritten wrote:But really, why do carebears hate playing with other people so much?
This isn't as bad as why others care so much about why they do. I for one sometimes enjoy doing nothing productive other than looking at my ship whilst flying in space or perhaps mining. Who knows what others think? And it doesn't really matter so long as they are happy.
Kietay Ayari wrote:Sorry but EVE is about your interaction with the player base and that is why it succeeds! :D
Again, not true for everyone. But it does work for probably 80-90% of the non-bot community (my guesstimate, no hard facts). How people interact with Eve is what really counts. If they choose to try to ignore the players, well who are we to say they are wrong. They just have to accept that some things are tougher than others.
Remember taking something away (or even being perceived to take something away) is always going to create lots of crying and teeth mashing...even amongst the most mature and open minded people. We just have to chill and adapt. Those are the ones that 'win' at Eve. I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it. |
Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Important Internet Spaceship League
14
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:36:00 -
[176] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Bagehi wrote:I fully intend to wander around blowing these things up. How long do you think it will take you to make a dent in the 10's of thousands of Custom's offices that will be out there? You, my friend, have WAY too much time on your hands.
I'm not looking to make a dent. It is a killmail. I like killmails. It is likely a way to force people out to defend their stuff. That means more killmails. Did I mention that I like killmails? |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
256
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:45:00 -
[177] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Bagehi wrote:I fully intend to wander around blowing these things up. How long do you think it will take you to make a dent in the 10's of thousands of Custom's offices that will be out there? You, my friend, have WAY too much time on your hands. I'm not looking to make a dent. It is a killmail. I like killmails. It is likely a way to force people out to defend their stuff. That means more killmails. Did I mention that I like killmails?
Killmails are a very important part of an important internet spaceships game. I can see what they would be relevant to your interests. :) This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:45:00 -
[178] - Quote
Anvil44 wrote:War Kitten wrote:My argument is that by giving lowsec dwellers the ability to put up their own POCO it was a buff to lowsec dwellers, not a nerf to lowsec as so many are claiming. It may be a nerf to their free ride on lowsec assets, but lowsec itself benefits.
^This - is a great point. I just wasn't understanding it until now. Maxwell Albritten wrote:But really, why do carebears hate playing with other people so much? This isn't as bad as why others care so much about why they do. I for one sometimes enjoy doing nothing productive other than looking at my ship whilst flying in space or perhaps mining. Who knows what others think? And it doesn't really matter so long as they are happy. Kietay Ayari wrote:Sorry but EVE is about your interaction with the player base and that is why it succeeds! :D Again, not true for everyone. But it does work for probably 80-90% of the non-bot community (my guesstimate, no hard facts). How people interact with Eve is what really counts. If they choose to try to ignore the players, well who are we to say they are wrong. They just have to accept that some things are tougher than others. Remember taking something away (or even being perceived to take something away) is always going to create lots of crying and teeth mashing...even amongst the most mature and open minded people. We just have to chill and adapt. Those are the ones that 'win' at Eve.
+1 for thinking that maybe there's something to all the complaints rather than chalking it up to the "carebears rule!" mentality.
I will disagree and say that there are plenty of examples now where the player base has stood up, called bullshit on a feature, and it has been reexamined. We don't have to simply chill and adapt. That's the attitude that allowed such imbalances as HICs when they were first introduced. Cargo running was removed as a viable profession in the official framework of the game. It forced unreasonable work arounds that bastardized the core purpose of some ships (see: dread and carrier jump freighters).
If CCP is willing to listen and at least explain how they are addressing at least a large portion of the issues that were called out in the original thread, we would be having a very different conversation in this thread. I have a feeling this particular thread would be filled with, "Spot on team PI", and, "Great job, guys!" Instead, we still see the same complaints being registered over and over again. |
Gasm
Colossus Enterprises
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:49:00 -
[179] - Quote
>>We hope that you like the adjustments we are doing, we certainly value the feedback!
I don't like the change, or the adjustments. At all. This is a bad change for the game, bad for CCP, bad for players, and very bad the "game designer" (lol) implementing them.
This is a really bad move all around. But your ears are plugged, it's clear, and you're going to do whatever you want with it. That's abundantly clear by now.... "game designer" |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
108
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 20:57:00 -
[180] - Quote
Ah, so now it is the grammar that is wrong. That same thing that nearly made it impossible for me to understand CCP Omen. You really have the strongest arguments, WK.
PS. That is irony, in case you have again have difficulties with understanding. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
|
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
24
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:06:00 -
[181] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Anvil44 wrote:buncha stuff +1 for thinking that maybe there's something to all the complaints rather than chalking it up to the "carebears rule!" mentality. I will disagree and say that there are plenty of examples now where the player base has stood up, called bullshit on a feature, and it has been reexamined. We don't have to simply chill and adapt. That's the attitude that allowed such imbalances as HICs when they were first introduced. Cargo running was removed as a viable profession in the official framework of the game. It forced unreasonable work arounds that bastardized the core purpose of some ships (see: dread and carrier jump freighters). If CCP is willing to listen and at least explain how they are addressing at least a large portion of the issues that were called out in the original thread, we would be having a very different conversation in this thread. I have a feeling this particular thread would be filled with, "Spot on team PI", and, "Great job, guys!" Instead, we still see the same complaints being registered over and over again.
Good point on the stand up and call bull **** part.
Just to clarify, my point on chill and adapt was to wait until we see how the changes play out. If you look at how hard people are speculating on what they will do with their new BCs when it wasn't even available yet on Sisi to test, you can see that conclusion jumping can be very rampant. As the ever-so-immortal Fred Flintstone once said: "She who jumps to conclusions may not like where she lands."
I hope that the light in the tunnel on this feature is not a Titan coming at us but more fun, shiny, rainbow land...in space. I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
256
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:07:00 -
[182] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:Ah, so now it is the grammar that is wrong. That same thing that nearly made it impossible for me to understand CCP Omen. You really have the strongest arguments, WK.
PS. That is irony, in case you have again have difficulties with understanding.
I wouldn't say it was your grammar, it's your vocabulary. You're using words without knowing what they mean, apparently.
Take for example your sarcastic comment about my arguments. You called it irony. They are not the same thing. This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Solo Player
78
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:10:00 -
[183] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:The player owned customs offices are meant to increase meaningful space conflict and the verisimilitude of the EVE universe.
CCP Omen,
please define what you mean by "verisimilitude".
If it means anything like what I think it means, that is "a plausible illusion of realism":
- I cannot understand how you can regard your implementation of POCOs to increase that - in fact, I feel you're doing the exact opposite. - I must ask where this consideration went when you implemented features and mechanics like sovereignty, insurance, npc behaviour, npc markets, etc., where you reasoned it was that way for "balance", "fun", "ease of access", "handing power to the players" or similar.
I'm really big on verisimilitude, beyond any other consideration. Frankly, reading you use the term to justify these POCOs I feel pretty much spat in my face. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
550
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:11:00 -
[184] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Jowen Datloran wrote:Ah, so now it is the grammar that is wrong. That same thing that nearly made it impossible for me to understand CCP Omen. You really have the strongest arguments, WK.
PS. That is irony, in case you have again have difficulties with understanding. I wouldn't say it was your grammar, it's your vocabulary. You're using words without knowing what they mean, apparently. Take for example your sarcastic comment about my arguments. You called it irony. They are not the same thing.
Inconceivable! Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
24
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:18:00 -
[185] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Inconceivable!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
LOL - nice.
I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
38
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:25:00 -
[186] - Quote
Can we please have some difference between racial custom offices? - If not Winter then some short time after?
Even if this difference is aesthetic initially I think it would add to the game..... I mean each FACTION LP store is providing blueprints - please don't make them generic, this is an opportunity to add a little flavour. Same goes for Interbus customs offices....
Gallente ones should resemble Pleasure Hubs!
As for the rest of the changes, I'd prefer it if Interbus hubs were weaker....you know how long it will take players to clear them all?
I'm also sceptical about Low Sec PI - There really is no advantage of doing PI there, as it will likely be less secure than nullsec and not enough more raw product to risk it over high sec.
Other than that, should be fun. We'll see. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:33:00 -
[187] - Quote
Vyktor Abyss wrote:Can we please have some difference between racial custom offices? - If not Winter then some short time after? Even if this difference is aesthetic initially I think it would add to the game..... I mean each FACTION LP store is providing blueprints - please don't make them generic, this is an opportunity to add a little flavour. Same goes for Interbus customs offices.... Gallente ones should resemble Pleasure Hubs! As for the rest of the changes, I'd prefer it if Interbus hubs were weaker....you know how long it will take players to clear them all? I'm also sceptical about Low Sec PI - There really is no advantage of doing PI there, as it will likely be less secure than nullsec and not enough more raw product to risk it over high sec. Other than that, should be fun. We'll see.
Ignoring the GLARING technical problems in the current implementation, I would say, racial POCO's make a ton of sense. If you guys put off this feature until the next expansion, you might even make the racial impact more than the visual components. |
Maxwell Albritten
Gallente Trade Union Moon Warriors
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:42:00 -
[188] - Quote
Gasm wrote:>>We hope that you like the adjustments we are doing, we certainly value the feedback! I don't like the change, or the adjustments. At all. This is a bad change for the game, bad for CCP, bad for players, and very bad the "game designer" (lol) implementing them. This is a really bad move all around. But your ears are plugged, it's clear, and you're going to do whatever you want with it. That's abundantly clear by now.... "game designer"
Nope. This is a great change. You are incorrect and CCP is going to continue to make this one of, if not the, best expansion ever despite you're irrelevant pleas and nonsensical tears.
Hooray! |
Ramman K'arojic
Deep Black Industries
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:43:00 -
[189] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Here are some replies to topics raised:
"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread" We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.
Yo Omen - Your comment may be valid - however have you considered that what impact your changes will have.
Please for Eve sakes prepare (and pritty please release) for each suggested item an impact assessment; what is the impact if its not fixed - how will it affect the economy, game play, use of PI.
Then ask yourself are the features your intending to give us worth doing half baked. (Seems to remind me of previous eve features that seemed to be not so well thought out).
Cheers and Beers Ramm
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:46:00 -
[190] - Quote
Maxwell Albritten wrote:Gasm wrote:>>We hope that you like the adjustments we are doing, we certainly value the feedback! I don't like the change, or the adjustments. At all. This is a bad change for the game, bad for CCP, bad for players, and very bad the "game designer" (lol) implementing them. This is a really bad move all around. But your ears are plugged, it's clear, and you're going to do whatever you want with it. That's abundantly clear by now.... "game designer" Nope. This is a great change. You are incorrect and CCP is going to continue to make this one of, if not the, best expansion ever despite you're irrelevant pleas and nonsensical tears. Hooray!
Careful, you're letting your character's age show. Also, I get the distinct impression that you haven't been paying attention to this feature since its announcement and the sensible arguments against this implementation and the preceding one. |
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 21:48:00 -
[191] - Quote
Ramman K'arojic wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Here are some replies to topics raised:
"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread" We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.
Yo Omen - Your comment may be valid - however have you considered that what impact your changes will have. Please for Eve sakes prepare (and pritty please release) for each suggested item an impact assessment; what is the impact if its not fixed - how will it affect the economy, game play, use of PI. Then ask yourself are the features your intending to give us worth doing half baked. (Seems to remind me of previous eve features that seemed to be not so well thought out). Cheers and Beers Ramm
THIS THIS THIS AND MORE THIS ^^^ This guy has hit the nail on the head. Show us these types of reports (You could even put an RP spin on it coming from Concord!) and allow us to comment on those concerns and have us create reports of our own!
|
Maxwell Albritten
Gallente Trade Union Moon Warriors
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 22:01:00 -
[192] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Maxwell Albritten wrote:Gasm wrote:>>We hope that you like the adjustments we are doing, we certainly value the feedback! I don't like the change, or the adjustments. At all. This is a bad change for the game, bad for CCP, bad for players, and very bad the "game designer" (lol) implementing them. This is a really bad move all around. But your ears are plugged, it's clear, and you're going to do whatever you want with it. That's abundantly clear by now.... "game designer" Nope. This is a great change. You are incorrect and CCP is going to continue to make this one of, if not the, best expansion ever despite you're irrelevant pleas and nonsensical tears. Hooray! Careful, you're letting your character's age show. Also, I get the distinct impression that you haven't been paying attention to this feature since its announcement and the sensible arguments against this implementation and the preceding one.
Careful, you're letting your character's cognitive failings show.
Yes, I've read. The argument boils down to "I don't want to change. I like PI by myself and other players are scary". Now, some posts are much more long-winded than one sentence, sure, but I'm talking about big picture stuff. There are still some actual good and relevant suggestions in here, but they are drowned out by meaningless whines.
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 22:19:00 -
[193] - Quote
Maxwell Albritten wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:Maxwell Albritten wrote:Gasm wrote:>>We hope that you like the adjustments we are doing, we certainly value the feedback! I don't like the change, or the adjustments. At all. This is a bad change for the game, bad for CCP, bad for players, and very bad the "game designer" (lol) implementing them. This is a really bad move all around. But your ears are plugged, it's clear, and you're going to do whatever you want with it. That's abundantly clear by now.... "game designer" Nope. This is a great change. You are incorrect and CCP is going to continue to make this one of, if not the, best expansion ever despite you're irrelevant pleas and nonsensical tears. Hooray! Careful, you're letting your character's age show. Also, I get the distinct impression that you haven't been paying attention to this feature since its announcement and the sensible arguments against this implementation and the preceding one. Careful, you're letting your character's cognitive failings show. Yes, I've read. The argument boils down to "I don't want to change. I like PI by myself and other players are scary". Now, some posts are much more long-winded than one sentence, sure, but I'm talking about big picture stuff. There are still some actual good and relevant suggestions in here, but they are drowned out by meaningless whines.
Character's cognitive failings... hmmm. I suppose if you only read a small subsection of the problems and have no experience actually taking advantage of the CO's in low-sec on a regular basis, you might think that you have a clue. When I said, "...letting your character's age show." what I actually meant is that you are displaying the same short-sightedness of a 12 year old that has yet to experience all of what the world has to offer. So, before accusing me of "cognitive failings", please take a step back and realize that the majority of the complaints are not actually about interacting with other players. The complaints revolve around how this 'feature' will affect the Eve economy as a whole.
It is not actually possible to play Eve without interacting with players at some point. Suggesting that players would complain about that, even facetiously, has no basis whatsoever. I cite numerous calls to allowing courier contracts directly from the CO's, so that players won't have to interrupt their other money making activities (typically involving market transactions or PVP, both of which making use of the social aspects of Eve) to fly to said low sec planets and take the time to pick up all their products.
I'm not going to go into why this feature will discourage player interaction. If you haven't picked it up from the previous discussions, you have no business speaking in this thread. |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 22:20:00 -
[194] - Quote
As best I can see the number one concern that was widely expressed has been dealt with, all CO's will stay in place until destroyed. For those people who do PI in out of the way backwaters and were concerned that they'd loose functional access to their planets, problem solved 100%.
For those people who are stressed that BPC's will be unavailable, dont worry. The amount of Concord LP generated in the last 3 months is astronomical, the same can be said for FW. As with every commodity in EVE there will be competition on pricing from day 1. At worst you only need to wait 2 weeks or months for them to hit rock bottom, and then profit. At worst don't destroy the existing CO's in your wormhole and win to.
In a wildly optimistic way Kitten is right, this is a buff to the various people who live in low sec full time. PCO's can be a viable revenue generator in and of themselves and have the potential to spin off additional revenue in the local low sec market. How many of the pirates and gankers that I encounter on a daily basis are likely to do this ? I'd be stunned if one let alone two did. In much the same way I'd be equally surprised to see them bother shooting the Interbus one's, but that is minutely possible.
To pmchem, thanks for doing all that math. I must admit that I assumed a 100% tax was equivalent to being locked out but you've proved that to be quite wrong. The arbitrary or non market value being assigned at present has the potential to be troublesome. I would have preferred that the tax rate have been an actual material amount taken as opposed to a new isk generator. It should be noted however that most p3's aren't made in high sec, at least not from low sec base components. It's often to risky, and in general for to inefficient, to move that volume of material for final processing to high sec. ATM I would say that most savy people who do PI in low sec run the entire process from start to finish in place and then haul out the completed robotics or guidance systems. That said, how does this effect your estimates ? At what estimated tax rate does it become smarter to move p3 out of low sec and into high sec for final processing ?
Using pmchem's numbers, the estimated time to pay for a CO is @ 30 days with 110k volume per day at 20% tax . That seems a bit high by my estimates for what the average low sec planet generates in exploitable resources and for the number of people I see doing PI. Provided that griefing doesn't get out of control , the threat of which i think is greatly exaggerated, 60-90 days to return your initial investment followed by years of afk isk should attract a reasonable number of entrepreneurs and offer a viable risk v reward ratio for larger high sec corps.
The only thing i can see as being a cause for concern is if PCO's get added to the Hulkageddon 5 tally. Then I'd predict we see every smart person waiting till February to set them up and the prices of the BPC's crashing post launch. Fun times ahead. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy S I L E N T.
20
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 22:31:00 -
[195] - Quote
The new changes look like quite the improvement on the original plan. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
108
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 22:36:00 -
[196] - Quote
If people, for mental reasons, shoot at a CONCORD owned CO in high sec will it not trigger a global criminal flagging and make them feel the unpleasantness of a CONCORDOKEN? And if so (or not), maybe you should highlight that part a bit. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 22:40:00 -
[197] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Still, they should do better than to leave the BPCs at the mercy of people trying to suffer through faction wars or incursion runners.
Forgive me if I missed it, but did you ever offer an explanation in the original thread as to what the problem is with this? We do fine with covetor BPOs being seeded in exactly 2 stations. There are plenty of Concord stations scattered around and I would guess there's a decent number of stations with faction warfare LP stores. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
316
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 22:48:00 -
[198] - Quote
Maxwell Albritten wrote:The main carebear-tear complaint I'm reading is "oh no, I'm forced to interact with people!" These things aren't going to be so valuable that a 0.0 alliance is going to super-carrier drop your customs station. So, you know, maybe get a contract with a merc corp to defend your stuff. Maybe actually get into a bit of pvp.
I think this could be a good possibility for small-gang pvp and could also make PI valuable enough for me to get interested in it.
But really, why do carebears hate playing with other people so much?
Random alliances hot drop into low sec to just blow stuff up for the fun of it. Much like the Honey Badger, "Supercap Aliiances don't care, they just do what they want!"
So they could free or a bazzilion isks and the result is the same. Slow day, no targets, just finished washing and waxing the cap fleet and my ammo is near its "use by date". "Lets go pop some CO's and see what kicking over the ant hill brings out".
More little guys get pushed out of already bleak and empty low sec. What happened to graduated risks, now low sec and null are identical for PI, actually, no, null is probably safer.
CCP, please consider selling Eve to a company with a clue. You lost yours.
Issler |
Dalilus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 22:52:00 -
[199] - Quote
Many of us have INTERBUS loyalty points and since they have no loyalty stores we cannot use them. Why not let INTERBUS also sell the blueprints? After all INTERBUS is looking after the Customs Offices until they get popped.... |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:05:00 -
[200] - Quote
GREMLINS!!! |
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
256
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:13:00 -
[201] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Maxwell Albritten wrote:The main carebear-tear complaint I'm reading is "oh no, I'm forced to interact with people!" These things aren't going to be so valuable that a 0.0 alliance is going to super-carrier drop your customs station. So, you know, maybe get a contract with a merc corp to defend your stuff. Maybe actually get into a bit of pvp.
I think this could be a good possibility for small-gang pvp and could also make PI valuable enough for me to get interested in it.
But really, why do carebears hate playing with other people so much? Random alliances hot drop into low sec to just blow stuff up for the fun of it. Much like the Honey Badger, "Supercap Aliiances don't care, they just do what they want!" So they could free or a bazzilion isks and the result is the same. Slow day, no targets, just finished washing and waxing the cap fleet and my ammo is near its "use by date". "Lets go pop some CO's and see what kicking over the ant hill brings out". More little guys get pushed out of already bleak and empty low sec. What happened to graduated risks, now low sec and null are identical for PI, actually, no, null is probably safer. CCP, please consider selling Eve to a company with a clue. You lost yours. Issler
One could use this very reasoning as an excuse never to do anything in lowsec again. Phear the supercap blob, they gonna get ya!
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:16:00 -
[202] - Quote
Hi Mikron,
Sorry but I seem to have missed your principle objections overall to this change.
" numerous calls to allowing courier contracts directly from the CO's, so that players won't have to interrupt their other money making activities to fly to said low sec planets and take the time to pick up all their products."
Why do you do PI in low sec if you can't be bothered to go get the stuff once a week ? Also, how can you expect to profit from the higher value low sec resources without accepting any of the risk ( passing it off to someone else ). As for interrupting your isk making, good. ATM there is to much free isk in the game and not enough sinks. If going to low sec to pick up your resources is to much work then stop doing it and invest your time in a more profitable activity.
Issler, I can only guess you don't do PI in low sec or for some crazy reason you do it in Ammamake. Yes there are bored gankers in eve, but no, no one will EVER waste the fuel cyno'ing all over low sec blasting CO's out of boredom. Relax, you're PI is safe today and it still will be post expansion. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
47
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:27:00 -
[203] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Hi Mikron,
Sorry but I seem to have missed your principle objections overall to this change.
" numerous calls to allowing courier contracts directly from the CO's, so that players won't have to interrupt their other money making activities to fly to said low sec planets and take the time to pick up all their products."
Why do you do PI in low sec if you can't be bothered to go get the stuff once a week ? Also, how can you expect to profit from the higher value low sec resources without accepting any of the risk ( passing it off to someone else ). As for interrupting your isk making, good. ATM there is to much free isk in the game and not enough sinks. If going to low sec to pick up your resources is to much work then stop doing it and invest your time in a more profitable activity.
Issler, I can only guess you don't do PI in low sec or for some crazy reason you do it in Ammamake. Yes there are bored gankers in eve, but no, no one will EVER waste the fuel cyno'ing all over low sec blasting CO's out of boredom. Relax, you're PI is safe today and it still will be post expansion.
Oh don't misunderstand me. I enjoy running around low-sec and tempting fate. It's about the only thing that gets my adrenaline going these days. I'm simply stating that no one is actually against player interaction (least of all me). We all understand that's what makes Eve unique. I just don't want the economy collapsing from the stress that this feature will put on it.
The pure capitalism that Eve emulates is a testament to how strong a free-market economy is. There have been many changes and we've survived them all. The objection that many others and myself have with this particular feature is that the chaos in the economy will be far-reaching. It will literally touch everything that is involved with the market (some to a different degree than others) unlike what the other features announced for this patch will be doing. This is mostly due to the PI materials making their way into every facet of POS and sov mechanics. The connection to trade goods and therefore t2 manufacturing can likewise not be ignored.
We simply want CCP to make sure they know what the hell they are doing with this feature, because 'making changes and monitoring the situation' is impossible when you have it touching EVERYTHING THAT MATTERS TO 90% OF THE EVE POPULATION. This kind of change is on the scale of rewriting the entire Eve code base in C#. Sure, it can be done - in theory. But there are a ton of 'things' (again >< mentioned previously) that could slip through the cracks and FUBAR Eve.
This is not a ******* whine fest from myself. I have a vested ******* interest in this game. I care. And I'm ******* tired of others not caring enough to even give this **** a second look. If I sound pissed/irate/unreasonably upset, it's because one can only scream for so long with no one listening before one finally cracks. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
317
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:31:00 -
[204] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Hi Mikron,
Sorry but I seem to have missed your principle objections overall to this change.
" numerous calls to allowing courier contracts directly from the CO's, so that players won't have to interrupt their other money making activities to fly to said low sec planets and take the time to pick up all their products."
Why do you do PI in low sec if you can't be bothered to go get the stuff once a week ? Also, how can you expect to profit from the higher value low sec resources without accepting any of the risk ( passing it off to someone else ). As for interrupting your isk making, good. ATM there is to much free isk in the game and not enough sinks. If going to low sec to pick up your resources is to much work then stop doing it and invest your time in a more profitable activity.
Issler, I can only guess you don't do PI in low sec or for some crazy reason you do it in Ammamake. Yes there are bored gankers in eve, but no, no one will EVER waste the fuel cyno'ing all over low sec blasting CO's out of boredom. Relax, you're PI is safe today and it still will be post expansion.
I live in lowsec (somewhere in Molden Heath and have spent the majority of my Eve life in low sec of null) and do all my PI in low sec. We have random super cap drops all over where I roam and they are almost always there for no other reason than to gank something or someone. For example several months ago we had an ajacent null sec alliance decide to just clear out low sec POSs. Didn't want the moons or ransom, just had some ships and nothing handy to blow up. I have no reason to see why these CO would be anty different.
Sadly these will be even easier since it looks like you don't really need a cap fleet to kill them.
Issler |
Zach Arody
Callide Vulpis Curatores Veritatis Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:38:00 -
[205] - Quote
One idea i have on pi is to alow planetary flight to avoid the cutsom office. The only thing for planetary flight is the fact that it will take awhile to fly to the docking bay planetside after deorbiting. When you do deorbit, you will be near the location of your docking bay. Ofcourse you can still fly planetside, you just arive planet side anywhere you chose, but still not to close to the docking bay of other people. The docking bay will also be at the launch pad, but the pad will require an upgrade to beable to handle ships. It doesn't have to be full planetary flight right away, just around the docking bay for the first bit, say 100 km radius from the docking bay, with a high quality radius of 10 km around the ship, from 10 km to 50 km lighter quality, and also gets hidden by the horrizon, so if it a planet with a large curcumfrince around the equator will have a large view, and smaller planets will have a smaller viewing radius. Just putting this in for thought |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:41:00 -
[206] - Quote
Still confused about the taxes. What are the percentages based off of? I'm trying to figure out the taxes so I can update my PI profit calculator, but inspection of the taxes on sisi look the same as they currently are on tranquility.
Still would like to see a PI ship in the future, where launchpads launch directly to the ship (when its in low orbit around the planet), allowing one to bypass the customs office more easily than the command center launch. PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them! |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
551
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:41:00 -
[207] - Quote
The silence of CCP now seems to indicate that they've done all they feel they need to do and people's opinions don't mean **** anymore. Feed someone crap long enough and dog food will start to look good. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
47
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:46:00 -
[208] - Quote
Havegun Willtravel wrote:Hi Mikron,
Sorry but I seem to have missed your principle objections overall to this change.
" numerous calls to allowing courier contracts directly from the CO's, so that players won't have to interrupt their other money making activities to fly to said low sec planets and take the time to pick up all their products."
Why do you do PI in low sec if you can't be bothered to go get the stuff once a week ? Also, how can you expect to profit from the higher value low sec resources without accepting any of the risk ( passing it off to someone else ). As for interrupting your isk making, good. ATM there is to much free isk in the game and not enough sinks. If going to low sec to pick up your resources is to much work then stop doing it and invest your time in a more profitable activity.
Issler, I can only guess you don't do PI in low sec or for some crazy reason you do it in Ammamake. Yes there are bored gankers in eve, but no, no one will EVER waste the fuel cyno'ing all over low sec blasting CO's out of boredom. Relax, you're PI is safe today and it still will be post expansion.
I also want to point out that PI is not an isk faucet. The only thing it does is introduce more material into the economy - like mining. Because it introduces more material into the economy, the price of goods will (as a general rule) decrease due to an increase in supply. This is good, because it allows more player interaction (cheaper goods are more expendable than expensive goods.
The idea of this POCO feature is that it will cause BPCs to get bought up (true isk sink - isk leaving the economy through NPC corp wallets). There are bigger and more dangerous isk faucets in game that I won't discuss (They are blindingly obvious). I've talked about all this since Day 1 of the announcement of this feature. I was assured that the necessary isk sinks are being created to account for the isk no longer leaving from PI export tax, but I'm not convinced that there will be the balance that is needed to properly accommodate the loss of a sink in the NPC CO's.
That horse is beaten, dead, beaten some more, pounded into dust, and scattered to the wind.
Many objections with few explanations and few fixes leaves me feeling less than comfortable with Crucible. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:55:00 -
[209] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:Maxwell Albritten wrote:The main carebear-tear complaint I'm reading is "oh no, I'm forced to interact with people!" These things aren't going to be so valuable that a 0.0 alliance is going to super-carrier drop your customs station. So, you know, maybe get a contract with a merc corp to defend your stuff. Maybe actually get into a bit of pvp.
I think this could be a good possibility for small-gang pvp and could also make PI valuable enough for me to get interested in it.
But really, why do carebears hate playing with other people so much? Random alliances hot drop into low sec to just blow stuff up for the fun of it. Much like the Honey Badger, "Supercap Aliiances don't care, they just do what they want!" So they could free or a bazzilion isks and the result is the same. Slow day, no targets, just finished washing and waxing the cap fleet and my ammo is near its "use by date". "Lets go pop some CO's and see what kicking over the ant hill brings out". More little guys get pushed out of already bleak and empty low sec. What happened to graduated risks, now low sec and null are identical for PI, actually, no, null is probably safer. CCP, please consider selling Eve to a company with a clue. You lost yours. Issler One could use this very reasoning as an excuse never to do anything in lowsec again. Phear the supercap blob, they gonna get ya!
The difference between towers and POCOs is that POCO's only defense is the owner. Literally, anyone can tear them down. They don't need super cap blobs. A determined small gang of aggressive battleships doesn't even need to fear the focused fire of tower guns. There are none. Then we get into the reinforcement timer 'games' that have been beaten to death in discussion.
You're being facetious, but this is a gaping hole in the design for something that costs so much in isk and time with very little ROI. The discussion further degrades into even more arguments that have been AGAIN beaten to death in the other thread.
|
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
256
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 23:56:00 -
[210] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote: We simply want CCP to make sure they know what the hell they are doing with this feature, because 'making changes and monitoring the situation' is impossible when you have it touching EVERYTHING THAT MATTERS TO 90% OF THE EVE POPULATION. This kind of change is on the scale of rewriting the entire Eve code base in C#. Sure, it can be done - in theory. But there are a ton of 'things' (again >< mentioned previously) that could slip through the cracks and FUBAR Eve.
Introducing PI and removing the ability to buy these items from NPC stations was the kind of change you're talking about. This is an order of magnitude or two smaller. It'll have repercussions on the economy, yes. But it will not be the end of the game, nor does it matter to 90% of the eve population.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
|
Lili Lu
32
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 00:02:00 -
[211] - Quote
Sorry, haven't read 11 pages of responses. Hell I haven't even read your blog(s) closely. But, let me just say this
STILL A STUPID "FEATURE" THAT NOONE ASKED FOR.
honestly, more structure shooting? is that really something you want to introduce to the game? Makes no sense for high sec. Hurts lowsec. Meh in 0.0 and wormies. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
256
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 00:03:00 -
[212] - Quote
Double post
(Stupid forum ganks - got me twice trying to post this. CCP - find a clue with this forum thing!) This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 00:06:00 -
[213] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote: We simply want CCP to make sure they know what the hell they are doing with this feature, because 'making changes and monitoring the situation' is impossible when you have it touching EVERYTHING THAT MATTERS TO 90% OF THE EVE POPULATION. This kind of change is on the scale of rewriting the entire Eve code base in C#. Sure, it can be done - in theory. But there are a ton of 'things' (again >< mentioned previously) that could slip through the cracks and FUBAR Eve.
Introducing PI and removing the ability to buy these items from NPC stations was the kind of change you're talking about. This is an order of magnitude or two smaller. It'll have repercussions on the economy, yes. But it will not be the end of the game, nor does it matter to 90% of the eve population.
Incorrect. This is orders of magnitude larger because of the change that requires tower and sov structures to be built from (you guessed it) PI materials. Because these are based on the prices of the PI materials, everything that requires a tower (from a practical standpoint) is based on those costs. This means a considerable portion of T2 manufacture (besides the trade good requirements), Blueprint research (meaningful contributory research does not happen in stations anymore - see: high value BPO research ), drug production, some t1 manufacturing (large scale stuff), capitals, etc... The list goes on. All of these costs are (sadly) now tied to what it takes for Joe blow to run a tower.
The change removing trade goods from the economy was a much more gradual change in a time where more things were based on an NPC seeded economy (see: towers and sov structs). I'm not saying the player base won't be able to (eventually) cope with this type of change. It can be enough to impact the number of people that are available to contribute to the economy significantly. Again, there are many assumptions being made that the people monitoring this thread will agree are incorrect. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
256
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 00:11:00 -
[214] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:
I live in lowsec (somewhere in Molden Heath and have spent the majority of my Eve life in low sec of null) and do all my PI in low sec. We have random super cap drops all over where I roam and they are almost always there for no other reason than to gank something or someone. For example several months ago we had an ajacent null sec alliance decide to just clear out low sec POSs. Didn't want the moons or ransom, just had some ships and nothing handy to blow up. I have no reason to see why these CO would be anty different.
Sadly these will be even easier since it looks like you don't really need a cap fleet to kill them.
Issler
It sounds like your area of space would be difficult to do anything industrious because of your corp. Building factories in a warzone filled with random explosions is a bad plan.
It doesn't make the POCO a bad idea, it makes building them anywhere in your area of space a bad idea. Perhaps the reduction in PI materials and difficulty in fueling your own POSs will temper your tendencies for random violence. :) This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 00:16:00 -
[215] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:
I live in lowsec (somewhere in Molden Heath and have spent the majority of my Eve life in low sec of null) and do all my PI in low sec. We have random super cap drops all over where I roam and they are almost always there for no other reason than to gank something or someone. For example several months ago we had an ajacent null sec alliance decide to just clear out low sec POSs. Didn't want the moons or ransom, just had some ships and nothing handy to blow up. I have no reason to see why these CO would be anty different.
Sadly these will be even easier since it looks like you don't really need a cap fleet to kill them.
Issler
It sounds like your area of space would be difficult to do anything industrious because of your corp. Building factories in a warzone filled with random explosions is a bad plan. It doesn't make the POCO a bad idea, it makes building them anywhere in your area of space a bad idea. Perhaps the reduction in PI materials and difficulty in fueling your own POSs will temper your tendencies for random violence. :)
The point being made here is that random violence occurs in random places in low-sec. An insurance idea was put forth to help recoup some of the costs of the 'shiny target', but that's the closest thing I've seen to a reasonable response to the random violence that Low-sec allows and encourages. It doesn't matter where you live. It can strike anywhere there are valid targets. In many cases, valid targets are docked or otherwise unavailable while a force occupies a system. With the advent of POCO's, there will be a ready supply of targets for people wanting to test out DPS on their new ship builds. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
256
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 00:18:00 -
[216] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote: Incorrect. This is orders of magnitude larger because of the change that requires tower and sov structures to be built from (you guessed it) PI materials. Because these are based on the prices of the PI materials, everything that requires a tower (from a practical standpoint) is based on those costs. This means a considerable portion of T2 manufacture (besides the trade good requirements), Blueprint research (meaningful contributory research does not happen in stations anymore - see: high value BPO research ), drug production, some t1 manufacturing (large scale stuff), capitals, etc... The list goes on. All of these costs are (sadly) now tied to what it takes for Joe blow to run a tower.
The change removing trade goods from the economy was a much more gradual change in a time where more things were based on an NPC seeded economy (see: towers and sov structs). I'm not saying the player base won't be able to (eventually) cope with this type of change. It can be enough to impact the number of people that are available to contribute to the economy significantly. Again, there are many assumptions being made that the people monitoring this thread will agree are incorrect.
I disagree, but that's ok. Prices going up is not the end of the world.
It looks like we'll see whether the sky falls or not in the coming months, and we can re-evaluate later.
It's disagreements and speculation on futures like this that drives market profits :) This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
317
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 00:22:00 -
[217] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:
I live in lowsec (somewhere in Molden Heath and have spent the majority of my Eve life in low sec of null) and do all my PI in low sec. We have random super cap drops all over where I roam and they are almost always there for no other reason than to gank something or someone. For example several months ago we had an ajacent null sec alliance decide to just clear out low sec POSs. Didn't want the moons or ransom, just had some ships and nothing handy to blow up. I have no reason to see why these CO would be anty different.
Sadly these will be even easier since it looks like you don't really need a cap fleet to kill them.
Issler
It sounds like your area of space would be difficult to do anything industrious because of your corp. Building factories in a warzone filled with random explosions is a bad plan. It doesn't make the POCO a bad idea, it makes building them anywhere in your area of space a bad idea. Perhaps the reduction in PI materials and difficulty in fueling your own POSs will temper your tendencies for random violence. :)
With my towers I can configure them to make hurting them something non-trivial. These are defenseless structures that anyone can shoot. That makes this with other things makes this one fo CCPs worst ideas to date,
Issler |
Kaaletram Lothyrawir
Ignus Astrum The Veyr Collective
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 00:35:00 -
[218] - Quote
Nirnaeth Ornoediad wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Well, the only boneheaded part left is requiring LPs for the blueprints. Hard to get LPs in wormholes... unless you start giving Concord LPs for killing Sleepers... It's called "trading", and involves interacting with other players. Wormholes are not meant to be 100% self-sufficient, and nor should they be. Interdependence drives conflict.
What!? you mean I have to actually communicate with others? The shock and horror of it all. I am doomed. I must rage quit and assign myself to the biomass. OR just grow a pair and think outside the box. Every change is not the end of the universe and it is to soon to tell exactly how it will affect the PI prices. I think the PI changes solve a fair amount of problems. I for one am just fine with making the PI introverted nerds out there to get out and socialize once in a while... |
Shalex Cain
Freelance Freight Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 00:44:00 -
[219] - Quote
While I can't speak to Isslers situation ( The overwhelming majority of nullsec fleeters hate structure shooting because you don't get corpses or bragging rights ) ... wow, I just had a spectacular sense of Deja Nous. I feel like I started typing almost this exact same bit about this topic or one similar a few months ago, and then deleted it unposted figuring "you know what, they don't need the heads up they'll figure it out on their own".
OK, the long and short of it is I go where things happen be it Null, Low, or Highsec. I have done PI in highsec, I have done it in nullsec, and I have done it in Lowsec.
You're welcome to PI in highsec. There's so many people do it and the yields are so low you have have your tablescraps. I don't want them.
PI in Nullsec is insidiously profitable for the effort involved. PI in lowsec isn't bad. If my calculations are correct I can make enough fuel for 2 large towers from my own PI in .3 ( some trading involved but pretty close ).
I don't know about "living" in lowsec because I don't limit myself like that and many others likely don't either. The main thing that keeps you out of null/lowsec is paranoia, and out of high is sec status. That's all in your own hands. I'm a citizen of New Eden, not some sec status.
The truth is planets are a lot more homogenous than people want to admit. There is no Tech moon equivalant. Unless someone tries to commandeer "all plasma planets" or somesuch it's pointless. It's far too localized. The tax profits are also likely to be laughable. If anything, most POCOs will be erected to control access. ( ensure someone else doesn't close you out, or to reserve it for you and yours. ) Even then it's a minor argument. Plasma planets are uncommon but they're not at all rare. There's at least one every few jumps. Few people want to organize to pop structures for that little profit and even fewer will want to rep them. You're not even dealing with stront timers, you set the hour! If a big red meany is coming to get your toy you can even negotiate a sale with them and transfer ownership. That's a win in my book. As for NPC corps... notice there's separate bars for each range, and for neutral rep. If you're that into klownshoe politics you could bar access to neutrals and tax everyone else!
The market in EVE is self correcting in a way that real world markets never will be. PI prices have been going up making it more profitable and undoubtedly getting more people interested but it all boils down to "How much ISK per hour can I make doing thing X VS what risk?" and as those things go PI is at this time I believe more profitable for much lower risk than running a POS. Granted, you can run a POS with very little training, PI takes more training time so there's that, but a POCO is an ISK investment and it will take time, like anything else, to make that ISK back so if the rates are low or people don't care they can be a long term trickle of ISK into your corp wallet not unlike datacores, but unlike datacores people can shoot at them when you're not looking. It's a new dynamic, and I'm a fan of new dynamics.
Personally I'm ready to take a chance on these banking that when it really comes down to it, if you don't bar anyone from using it and your rates are reasonable nobody is going to care enough to come take it from you.
In closing... relax a bit and let the Dev's do their thing with POCO's. They're not Tech moons. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 01:13:00 -
[220] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote: Incorrect. This is orders of magnitude larger because of the change that requires tower and sov structures to be built from (you guessed it) PI materials. Because these are based on the prices of the PI materials, everything that requires a tower (from a practical standpoint) is based on those costs. This means a considerable portion of T2 manufacture (besides the trade good requirements), Blueprint research (meaningful contributory research does not happen in stations anymore - see: high value BPO research ), drug production, some t1 manufacturing (large scale stuff), capitals, etc... The list goes on. All of these costs are (sadly) now tied to what it takes for Joe blow to run a tower.
The change removing trade goods from the economy was a much more gradual change in a time where more things were based on an NPC seeded economy (see: towers and sov structs). I'm not saying the player base won't be able to (eventually) cope with this type of change. It can be enough to impact the number of people that are available to contribute to the economy significantly. Again, there are many assumptions being made that the people monitoring this thread will agree are incorrect.
I disagree, but that's ok. Prices going up is not the end of the world. It looks like we'll see whether the sky falls or not in the coming months, and we can re-evaluate later. It's disagreements and speculation on futures like this that drives market profits :)
Agreed.
I will remain adamant on the effect being a net loss for low-sec however. It's that negative influence that will cause more people to leave the supply chain entirely and encourage less people to pick up the hole in the supply before we start to see rampant price fluctuation resulting in a very 'turbulent' economy for the next patch and beyond. And don't get me wrong, this too is not a bad thing. The supply shock will be the sole cause of problems in the upcoming patch. Some things are not simple supply and demand. There's a point where supply simply cannot keep up with demand. |
|
Ore Grinder
Star-Gate Command
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 02:24:00 -
[221] - Quote
There has to be guns on these things or small roaming gangs will pick them off if there is nothing better to do. If you saw an offline POS in low sec would you shoot it? Of course you would. It won't shoot back and it's a free kill mail. You could show up in a glass cannon and shoot it all day since you don't have to worry about tank. Zero deterrent is not a good idea here. |
Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 02:28:00 -
[222] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Here are some replies to topics raised:
"People will grief the Interbus COs" That is quite probable, even with this change of deployment, our guiding light is that EVE is player driven. This way the transition between NPC owned and Player owned will be smoother. It's no silver bullet and balancing between player driven and player convenience is very difficult. Our hope remain that you, the player will organize and sort out the supply and demand of PI goods and the availability of Customs Offices. If that does not happen, and there is a measurable decline in lowsec or PI activity then we will act. How we act will be decided if that event occurs, but we will not simply let lowsec die. We strive to invigorate lowsec, not just with this feature but for the long run. You may disagree that this feature will accomplish that, but that is never the less one of our goals and we will monitor how it pans out.
"Do you think more people will do PI?" No, as many have pointed out the PI gameplay in itself is far from perfect and we are absolutely not trying to make people do PI. The player owned customs offices are meant to increase meaningful space conflict and the verisimilitude of the EVE universe. Actual improvements to PI is an entirely different topic. Having said that, we are hoping for activity to stay somewhat the same.
"Did you have a clue the prices went up based on the previous blog?" Yes - absolutely and that was expected. We also fully expect the prices of PI goods to be unstable while the market adapts. The higher prices are in fact essential to drive motivation to operate Customs Offices. In the end, we believe the prices of for instance POS fuel will stabilize as we have seen with nearly all other player driven commodities in EVE.
"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread" We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.
Regards Omen
/sigh
The tax rate is based on a tariff. You charge between 0 and 100% of the tariff, which is a fixed number as you say. This basically means that the "higher prices" you feel are "essential to drive motivation to operate Custom's Offices" have zero effect on the profitability of a CO. Whether a robotics sells for 100 isk each or 100 million ISK each, the export tax is exactly the same ISK.
If this change drove more people to do PI, than perhaps a greater volume of PI would generate more income (not because of market prices), however your stated hope and expectation is that the amount of PI will remain about the same. Beyond that, planets have a limited amount of resources and therefore income from a PCO is also limited.
I think that the SP spent on PI should be refunded. Log files help PCO owners know when I will be doing PI, where I will be going to do it and even the character that will be doing it. There is no guarantee that the PCO will still exist when I come to pick up my commodities from a spaceport that suddenly has no use other than being a silo.
Furthermore, I think that the SP for transport ships should also be refunded. PI was the only reason I trained transport ships on 2 of my 3 accounts. I trained transports on the 3rd, and still have use for transports on him, just not PI.
When I trained for PI and transport ships, I knew that a CO was going to be at the planet when I went to pick up my goods. I also knew that the owner wasn't looking at logs to seen when, where and who was coming with a nice juicy transport ship for him to blow up. I am not notified when tax rates change, when the PCO is attacked or destroyed, or given any notice that the owner suddenly blocked access to me. You fundamentally changed what PI is, and therefore should refund the SP used for PI. I know that you will not do this, after all I'm just a player and my thoughts are insignificant.
As far as acting on the feed back of the first thread - It's great that you fixed a couple problems that sorely needed fixes with the first planned implementation. However, if you have 4 flat tires on a car, does fixing only 2 do much good? CCP has a fairly well established reputation for implementing unfinished expansions and never really finishing them. Your comment that you couldn't implement many good ideas because of the time frame is an indication that this will be another example of that. Perhaps, you should give yourself time to properly finish this and do a good job of it before shoving it down the players throats half assed.
Of the 2 major fixes that you implemented, at least 1 is so glaringly obvious a problem that it is painful to think that you were ready to make the PCO enhancement live with the idea that 1000's of existing CO's just disappear. I would suggest that if you had not thought through CO's and PCO's sufficiently to identify and fix the problem of 1000's of CO's disappearing simultaneously after a couple of months of development and programming, than you clearly have not thought through this enhancement and it's ramifications well enough to make it go live with any prayer of making it successful. The few weeks of mostly ignored player feedback and ideas is not sufficient to change that.
You say that "our guiding light is that EVE is player driven". I think your being blinded by the light and have shut your eyes. |
Mishatola
Atoll Explorers
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 02:41:00 -
[223] - Quote
Ok, so at least initially there will be no help for the small folks, greifing will be huge etc.
Whats the worst case scenario for me? (low sec planets)
I have to shoot everything off using my CC cause somebody killed it (the CO) and didn't bother to but another up. - Or they did but will not let me use it.
1. I will have to redo a few colonies cause the CC is too damn far from everything else, but that's a one time thing.
2. I will have to shoot 10k/0.5k (volumes) or 20 times every two weeks per planet (6), on 2 characters or a huge 240 pickups every 2 weeks. (My standard setup is 5 storage sites so the 25 minute expedite timer is not my bottle neck). 240 pickups is just gross.
3. I will not be able to import. So no more P3 (ok i could but its not worth it in my opinion).
I remember reading a blog about lessons learned about how CCP found that players will do what is the best if tedious way to get it done... they will just hate it. Are they forgetting this lesson?
Here is hopeing that interbus places a CO at a planet if one has not been there for a week. But I don't think thats in the works.
Here is hoping my new overloards will be kind.... cause I've got this independent streak. Its certainly a challange to play a game solo for free when it is stated again and again by CCP that it is not meant to be played solo, and they continue to put into practice that mentality. |
Zleon Leigh
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 05:09:00 -
[224] - Quote
So right after DT, those players who aren't at work will be able to get on and blow away the Interbus stations and I'll loose anything I've left in customs, this even though I might have RL issues that keep me from clearing it out beforehand.
All the PI in CO's in NPC Null and lowSec needs to be moved by CCP to NPC stations during the transition. If you export PI to CO after the transition, fine, you knew that the CO's are going to be dropping like flies.
There will be roaming gangs doing nothing but dropping CO'sin NPC Null and lowSec for the lutz. (I guess ammo producers will be having a good time for a while.) Guess what? Given the poor math, no one will put a CO backup to replace it. CCP - you need a timer that grows CO's back into place if players don't actually take over a spot. Otherwise you're going to cut off all smaller corps and individuals from lowSec and Null PI.
~"Going to keep an eye on PI and fix if it gets out of control" - how? At that point it will be a crisis and you'll have to seed PI sells - and compete with the few PI producers that are still in business.
This is nothing but a cluster. POS's are gonna die and they won't be going back up.
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Intrepid Crossing
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 08:24:00 -
[225] - Quote
Like the changes since the last iteration. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
59
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 08:48:00 -
[226] - Quote
stop winning, the changes are good, we should be pushing for other stuff, like:
allows us to choose any other structure in the planet, other than the command center, to be the starting focus point when we enter in Planet mode or we double click anywhere in the planet with the mouse!
Most of the times or production is in the other side of the planet and is really annoying to lose time looking for it.
--
so in resume, if you still have time for this winter release on 29, please add a new menu entry to the structures that allow us to choose it as the primary. Then just add a new menu entry to the planet menu to allow us to jump focus to the command center when we need it (almost never).
Thanks
Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
59
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 09:14:00 -
[227] - Quote
Also these changes are easy to make and can be placed in time for the 29 release:
- Storage Facilities have no advantages over Launchpads -> yes, nobody uses them, they really need a boost on the storage space.
- Allow us to destroy products we do not want to export, special now with the new custom offices with expensive tax rates and such -> I probably will not want to take out excess T0 materials from it and just dump them to avoid extra costs. Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 09:17:00 -
[228] - Quote
Ore Grinder wrote:There has to be guns on these things or small roaming gangs will pick them off if there is nothing better to do. If you saw an offline POS in low sec would you shoot it? Of course you would. It won't shoot back and it's a free kill mail. You could show up in a glass cannon and shoot it all day since you don't have to worry about tank. Zero deterrent is not a good idea here. isnt that kinda the point? now a relatively small group of roaming pirates can destroy a part of their enemie's infrastructure without having to have a huge fleet or deploy caps
While this seems like the first step in a journey of thousands of miles, anything that may make a massive alliance more defensive rather than offensive is IMHO a good thing.
you may say that this wont do that, or that large alliances wont notice/dont care but you gotta start somewhere, and like i said, journey of a thousand miles. |
Echo Mande
11
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 10:06:00 -
[229] - Quote
Overall the changes are an improvement, though I have two issues with the concept as presented.
The first is 0.0 related. Will PI in sov 0.0 be possible without being a member of the sov holding alliance? With PCO access control being introduced the ability to plant control centers should basically be changed to 'if you can warp there you can plant CCs there'. Various 0.0 sovholders who will remain nameless would appreciate the extra income.
I support 0.0 PCO owners being able to lock out people they don't like but does this extend into lowsec. Unless people cannot be locked out of lowsec PCOs this will slowly but effectively kill lowsec PI. |
ThaWolf X2
tDM Drunken Monkeys NUNQUAM RETRO
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 10:53:00 -
[230] - Quote
Well, this means nothing else then CCP doesn't listen and that taking part in the discussion isn't worth it.
The implementation of this crappy console Game Dust is more important to them than the Eve economy.
PI in Lowsek is going to be without reward, 1 covert hauler takes months of PI to compensate, not worth the risk if you cant use POCOS anymore, PVP will also drop since the travel will decrease.
T2 prices will skyrocket, the margins to produce T2 are so low already, that you cant call it making money, its noting more then a hobby because some ppl like to produce stuff, shooting NPC would be way more ISK effective.
But when you need to pay more into that Hobby, which still is like gambling in the casino, compared to what you get out of it, why bother doing it at all, and i dont think that ppl will buy many T2 items anymore if something like an Overdrive2 costs 10Mill/piece, not to speak of t2 Ship-prices.
PI in Highsek is worthless on a time/outcome perspective, you cant run a Pos with the small amount you get out of Empire planets.
For me it means i will stomp PI in Lowsek and stop T2 production, and i will move my interests of producing stuff into another game where it is more fun.
This entire patch is turning into a grand disaster, Gallente "fix", wont do anything, Tier 3 BC, already nerved back to be useless, not sure how long i will have my last account subbed. |
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
553
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 11:33:00 -
[231] - Quote
The changes verify what the Mythbusters have demonstrated...
You can polish a turd. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
131
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 13:00:00 -
[232] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Current tariffs in high-security space - as of today - on Singularity:
P0 Aqua - 0.50 / 1.00 per unit (import/export) P1 Oxygen - 0.10 / 0.20 per unit P2 Coolant - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P2 Mech Parts - 9.00 / 18.00 per unit P3 Robotics - 600 / 1200 per unit P4 Broadcast Node - 50,000 / 100,000 per unit
Quoting again, it's still like this on Sisi.
Can we get confirmation this is bugged, or that you really want to make POCOs unviable on harvest planets? The old amounts were already bad, but at that rate it will take literally a hundred years to repay a harvest planet POCO (at 10% rate). |
Ayesha Arkaral
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:12:00 -
[233] - Quote
All I can do is offer up what kind of player I am and how this might affect me.
I'm fairly new, I was having some fun doing some high sec missions and trading but I've moved from that, I've just recently moved into w-space. I find it to be much more fun as there's always something new that can happen every day from new entrances/exits.
I acquire all of my POS fuel in-system. I do not have the funds or means to erect player-controlled COs at this point. I fully expect to become someone's static and for them to grief my Interbus COs within a week, hell I wouldn't be surprised really if it took a day given the types I've encountered in w-space. So what does this mean... I will need to buy fuel on the Market? Yeah, along with everyone else? I know a little bit about basic supply and demand and this seems like demand is going to utterly skyrocket. There is no way I will be able to remain in my hole. I'm going to be kicked out of doing what I like. Sounds awesome!
I could stock up on fuel before hand, but wait, I can't because it's going to be a different fuel type. It's already too late anyway. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 14:29:00 -
[234] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:It sounds like your area of space would be difficult to do anything industrious because of your corp. Building factories in a warzone filled with random explosions is a bad plan.
Sadly, lowsec is getting more and more like this. Some guys were so afraid of me the other day that they had to bring in a titan to help their supercarriers kill my battlecruiser. I know I'm scary, but that's just overkill. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
295
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:15:00 -
[235] - Quote
Ayesha Arkaral wrote:All I can do is offer up what kind of player I am and how this might affect me.
I'm fairly new, I was having some fun doing some high sec missions and trading but I've moved from that, I've just recently moved into w-space. I find it to be much more fun as there's always something new that can happen every day from new entrances/exits.
I acquire all of my POS fuel in-system. I do not have the funds or means to erect player-controlled COs at this point. I fully expect to become someone's static and for them to grief my Interbus COs within a week, hell I wouldn't be surprised really if it took a day given the types I've encountered in w-space. So what does this mean... I will need to buy fuel on the Market? Yeah, along with everyone else? I know a little bit about basic supply and demand and this seems like demand is going to utterly skyrocket. There is no way I will be able to remain in my hole. I'm going to be kicked out of doing what I like. Sounds awesome!
I could stock up on fuel before hand, but wait, I can't because it's going to be a different fuel type. It's already too late anyway.
Actually you will be able to stock up in advance, or build your own, before the transition.
In your WH do you typically have hostile groups hanging in there for more than 24 hours? If not then putting up your own CO's doesn't sound all that risky, considering their reinforcement tiner and the fact that you can repair them. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
295
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:16:00 -
[236] - Quote
rootimus maximus wrote:War Kitten wrote:It sounds like your area of space would be difficult to do anything industrious because of your corp. Building factories in a warzone filled with random explosions is a bad plan. Sadly, lowsec is getting more and more like this. Some guys were so afraid of me the other day that they had to bring in a titan to help their supercarriers kill my battlecruiser. I know I'm scary, but that's just overkill.
Sounds like they just wanted to rack up some sub cap kills with thier super caps while they still can. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:19:00 -
[237] - Quote
To paraphrase Admiral David Farragut ---
"Damn the players, full speed ahead." |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
555
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 15:52:00 -
[238] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Ayesha Arkaral wrote:All I can do is offer up what kind of player I am and how this might affect me.
I'm fairly new, I was having some fun doing some high sec missions and trading but I've moved from that, I've just recently moved into w-space. I find it to be much more fun as there's always something new that can happen every day from new entrances/exits.
I acquire all of my POS fuel in-system. I do not have the funds or means to erect player-controlled COs at this point. I fully expect to become someone's static and for them to grief my Interbus COs within a week, hell I wouldn't be surprised really if it took a day given the types I've encountered in w-space. So what does this mean... I will need to buy fuel on the Market? Yeah, along with everyone else? I know a little bit about basic supply and demand and this seems like demand is going to utterly skyrocket. There is no way I will be able to remain in my hole. I'm going to be kicked out of doing what I like. Sounds awesome!
I could stock up on fuel before hand, but wait, I can't because it's going to be a different fuel type. It's already too late anyway. Actually you will be able to stock up in advance, or build your own, before the transition. In your WH do you typically have hostile groups hanging in there for more than 24 hours? If not then putting up your own CO's doesn't sound all that risky, considering their reinforcement tiner and the fact that you can repair them.
He's talking about the time period before he can afford to put up PCOs... if someone comes in on a whim and blows away his current customs offices before he can get the PCOs his PI is effectively halted.
It's an ill-thought solution that doesn't really fix anything. If the customs offices remained invulnerable and simply deactivated in the presence of a PCO, reactivating if/when it's removed this would solve any and all issues that can be had with broken PI. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
John DaiSho
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
8
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:02:00 -
[239] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Ayesha Arkaral wrote:All I can do is offer up what kind of player I am and how this might affect me.
I'm fairly new, I was having some fun doing some high sec missions and trading but I've moved from that, I've just recently moved into w-space. I find it to be much more fun as there's always something new that can happen every day from new entrances/exits.
I acquire all of my POS fuel in-system. I do not have the funds or means to erect player-controlled COs at this point. I fully expect to become someone's static and for them to grief my Interbus COs within a week, hell I wouldn't be surprised really if it took a day given the types I've encountered in w-space. So what does this mean... I will need to buy fuel on the Market? Yeah, along with everyone else? I know a little bit about basic supply and demand and this seems like demand is going to utterly skyrocket. There is no way I will be able to remain in my hole. I'm going to be kicked out of doing what I like. Sounds awesome!
I could stock up on fuel before hand, but wait, I can't because it's going to be a different fuel type. It's already too late anyway. Actually you will be able to stock up in advance, or build your own, before the transition. In your WH do you typically have hostile groups hanging in there for more than 24 hours? If not then putting up your own CO's doesn't sound all that risky, considering their reinforcement tiner and the fact that you can repair them. He's talking about the time period before he can afford to put up PCOs... if someone comes in on a whim and blows away his current customs offices before he can get the PCOs his PI is effectively halted. It's an ill-thought solution that doesn't really fix anything. If the customs offices remained invulnerable and simply deactivated in the presence of a PCO, reactivating if/when it's removed this would solve any and all issues that can be had with broken PI.
And would kill almost all reasons to try to defend your own POCO
|
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
556
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:07:00 -
[240] - Quote
John DaiSho wrote:And would kill almost all reasons to try to defend your own POCO
In wormholes that's irrelevant... the PCO will be reinforced for longer than the wormhole the people that cami in and shot it up will be open. They'll be gone, you repair it.
The bigger issue still lies with low sec PI from high sec people... if someone shoots the customs office they're shut out. If they're in an NPC corp they're frakked. If a corp in low puts up a PCO the high people may or may not be locked out. If the low sec corp is being dicks, the high sec folks now have the option to take out the PCO to regain PI access if they wish. The low sec corp can defend it, with reason. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
|
VaL Iscariot
The Concilium Enterprises Spectrum Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 16:17:00 -
[241] - Quote
80 million isk to build
2 hours with a 20 man battleship fleet to destroy the npc/player structure + reinforced timer adding a extra 24 hours
more timers
odds of someone coming back and blowing up your structure in the exact same way: near 100%
probability that these will only be found on plasma planets: HIGH
chance to charge a total stranger 100k isk to launch down to a planet?
priceless.
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
131
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 17:32:00 -
[242] - Quote
VaL Iscariot wrote:80 million isk to build
2 hours with a 20 man battleship fleet to destroy the npc/player structure + reinforced timer adding a extra 24 hours
More like 20 minutes. It took me 50 minutes to blow up a npc CO on sisi with an unskilled dread.
Compared with a similar-priced ship, it's still a huge effort. |
ShipSpinner
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 17:55:00 -
[243] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:John DaiSho wrote:And would kill almost all reasons to try to defend your own POCO
In wormholes that's irrelevant... the PCO will be reinforced for longer than the wormhole the people that cami in and shot it up will be open. They'll be gone, you repair it.
You don't have to leave the same way you came in.
If someone really wants to destroy your POCOs, they can and will. Either make sure you never annoy anyone enough to make the commit a day, or be ready to defend it. Considering that you're in completely lawless space, even more so than 0.0, maybe you should consider the latter anyways. |
Cerulean Ice
EVE University Ivy League
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 18:16:00 -
[244] - Quote
Maybe the (already started) POS fuel price hikes will make highsec PI profitable... and with no hassle of POCOs. One more reason POCOs are a bad idea. Making highsec PI more profitable while increasing the complexity and difficulty of lowsec/nulsec/wh PI only means one thing. Fewer industrialists putting their shiny haulers at risk. That means less conflict, less things getting blown up, less fun for everyone. I thought the point was to increase pew pew, not decrease it.
Can we skip to the part where you undo this horrible change and save everyone the trouble?
Also, if there really is some alleged way this will interact with DUST, can you tell us what this mystical secret is? All this DUST keeps getting into my EVE before it's even released. Bad CCP, no biscuit. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
129
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 18:24:00 -
[245] - Quote
I think your transitional INTERBUS POCO's are going to hurt more than help.
In the end though, my main concern is still the DEFENDABLE nature of these POCO's.
Here's the scenario :
Group A is using Interbus POCO's.
Group B decide to take down the Interbus CO to take advantage of said Group A's taxes for themselves.
Group B puts up their POCO in hopes of making money off of Group A.
Group C sees Group B's POCO's and decides to shoot at it for fun.
Group B has NO CHOICE except to come at time x to defend, potentially against a larger group that doesn't care at ALL about the POCO or the planet.
Why does Group B have no other plan of defense except to hope that they don't get hot-dropped by 50 carriers at the POCO?
If you give a defense option, such as disabling the timer, then you can force the aggressive forces to have to COMMIT to really WANTING to attack the POCO. The issue is attackers have no commitment to attacking, and defenders have no choice to preempt attacks.
It's really a ****** scenario especially in low sec, and you need to acknowledge it and put in a fix for this.
NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
140
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 19:06:00 -
[246] - Quote
Don't make the tax a percentage. Allow it to be a fixed value per unit for P0 P1 P2 P3 P4 to enable a more flexible fee schedule. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
297
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 20:02:00 -
[247] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Ayesha Arkaral wrote:All I can do is offer up what kind of player I am and how this might affect me.
I'm fairly new, I was having some fun doing some high sec missions and trading but I've moved from that, I've just recently moved into w-space. I find it to be much more fun as there's always something new that can happen every day from new entrances/exits.
I acquire all of my POS fuel in-system. I do not have the funds or means to erect player-controlled COs at this point. I fully expect to become someone's static and for them to grief my Interbus COs within a week, hell I wouldn't be surprised really if it took a day given the types I've encountered in w-space. So what does this mean... I will need to buy fuel on the Market? Yeah, along with everyone else? I know a little bit about basic supply and demand and this seems like demand is going to utterly skyrocket. There is no way I will be able to remain in my hole. I'm going to be kicked out of doing what I like. Sounds awesome!
I could stock up on fuel before hand, but wait, I can't because it's going to be a different fuel type. It's already too late anyway. Actually you will be able to stock up in advance, or build your own, before the transition. In your WH do you typically have hostile groups hanging in there for more than 24 hours? If not then putting up your own CO's doesn't sound all that risky, considering their reinforcement tiner and the fact that you can repair them. He's talking about the time period before he can afford to put up PCOs... if someone comes in on a whim and blows away his current customs offices before he can get the PCOs his PI is effectively halted. It's an ill-thought solution that doesn't really fix anything. If the customs offices remained invulnerable and simply deactivated in the presence of a PCO, reactivating if/when it's removed this would solve any and all issues that can be had with broken PI.
Yep yep, thanks Ingvar. I misread that part of his post. i thought he was talking about stocking up on fuel.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
297
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 20:04:00 -
[248] - Quote
Hmmm, perhaps the second part of this that we won't see until next year will be that you can easily defend your customs office with your planetary defense guns.
We know they are coming, it's just a question of when.
That might just bring a smile to a lot of peoples faces. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
169
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 20:08:00 -
[249] - Quote
Dear CCP do you actually read the feedback ; on those 89 pages of feed back the overwhelming majority said NO bad idea and what did you do ?? Yep just went ahead and itroduced a new game mechanic that will NEVER work
Why ccp WHY I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
297
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 20:10:00 -
[250] - Quote
pussnheels wrote:Dear CCP do you actually read the feedback ; on those 89 pages of feed back the overwhelming majority said NO bad idea and what did you do ?? Yep just went ahead and itroduced a new game mechanic that will NEVER work
Why ccp WHY
They addressed pretty much the only valid points made in those 89 pages. 88 pages were hysterical rewording of the exact same non-fact based imaginings. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
|
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 20:56:00 -
[251] - Quote
Bloodpetal Group A is using Interbus POCO's. Group B decide to take down the Interbus CO to take advantage of said Group A's taxes for themselves. Group B puts up their POCO in hopes of making money off of Group A. Group C sees Group B's POCO's and decides to shoot at it for fun. Group B has NO CHOICE except to come at time x to defend, potentially against a larger group that doesn't care at ALL about the POCO or the planet.
Why does Group B have no other plan of defense except to hope that they don't get hot-dropped by 50 carriers at the POCO? If you give a defense option, such as disabling the timer, then you can force the aggressive forces to have to COMMIT to really WANTING to attack the POCO. The issue is attackers have no commitment to attacking, and defenders have no choice to preempt attacks.
It's really a ****** scenario especially in low sec, and you need to acknowledge it and put in a fix for this.
-- Not an unlikely scenario but with a few small flaws. You're pre-supposing that Group B's only interest is to tax Group A and not do PI themselves. In which case they have a less than solid business plan which is likely to fail anyway. Second, you pre-suppose that they're never around to defend prior to the CO getting re-inforced. Yes this does occur in null with renters almost never seeing or getting support from the sov holder, but the very nature of putting up a PCO is aimed at people who actively occupy the space they'll be set up in and dis-favors absentee landlords. This is good in my opinion. If you're going to put up a CO in low sec you'd best be a regular if not permanent resident or the obvious will happen. Preempt attacks by being active in your space and killing them before the CO gets re-inforced.
Is it remotely possible that a very small number of entrepreneurial pirate corps will take advantage of this new feature and set up PCO'S ? Maybe. Do i truely believe that a roaming gang in low sec is going to take 30 min out of their day to ref a PCO in the hopes of getting a fight. Only if they see 10 or 15 of the owning corp in local. Otherwise it's highly doubtful they'll waste the ammo. Or come back X number of hours later to finish the job.
The people who i expect to see the most action are W space residents. Interbus CO's dont have re-inforce timers. They just die. If you were planning on kiling all the Interbus CO's in you hole anyway a roaming gang is doing you a favor by killing them. If however you wanted to just leave the Interbus Co's in place, then the w space roamers are going to be able to bait you into alot of fights.
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Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
29
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:08:00 -
[252] - Quote
I hope this doesn't get lost in the many many pages of responses here, but I have a question relating to the tariff levels.
I know that you are intending that a tariff level of 5% would mean PI taxes at the same level that they are now. But do you intend to amend the tariff rates for each PI export? The ratio for each export varies wildly:
The current tariff rates are:
P0 0.1 P1 0.76 P29 P3600 P450000
Comparing this against the average market prices for each PI tier you can see that the Tax Ratios per PI tier are not even. P4 materials are especially penalised.
tax ratio (x1000) P11.70 P21.26 P310.59 P448.42
Do you intend to ever 're-balance' the tariff levels for each tier so that they are more in line with each other? |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
365
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 21:49:00 -
[253] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Don't make the tax a percentage. Allow it to be a fixed value per unit for P0 P1 P2 P3 P4 to enable a more flexible fee schedule.
That's already how it works - the percentage rate that you set is "percent of the maximum possible tariff" that you're charging for import/export.
(Which goes back to my complaint on page 3 or 4 that the percent signs are going to confuse a lot of people. It's a percentage of the maximum possible tariff, not a percentage of market value.) |
Zleon Leigh
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 23:10:00 -
[254] - Quote
Just a total bad idea being ram rodded along by people to big headed to admit it's a big mistake.
Deja Boo! Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 23:25:00 -
[255] - Quote
I donGÇÖt know about you but I just received the Volume #68 of the EvE Online newsletter, where they are touting the Crucible Expansion, which mostly just consists of some balancing, artwork changes and four new ships. Although I appreciate the fact that these improvements are free, my interpretation of an Expansion is adding Wormholes (Apocrypha) , Moongoo (tech 2) Planetary interaction, Incursion and even the Sovereignty changes in Dominion that were noted in Volume #34 of the EvE Online Newsletter. How many corporations boarded up and left for Greener Pastures online after that mess?
If CCP thinks that these changes to PI are so great why are they hiding this fact in their newsletter? IGÇÖll tell you why most people donGÇÖt read the Dev Blogs or announcements. If they did you would get 10x as many negative post on this subject and most people who have suspended their accounts wouldnGÇÖt come within a hundred miles of this disaster and CCP knows this. I actually did not know myself this was happening until I was informed of the changes by the Pirate group that inhabits my Low Security PI system in Black Rise. I could actually hear them Salivating over Team Speak.
So to make things easier for CCP I have written the announcement for them so that they can add this to Volume #69 of the Eve Online Newsletter which makes sense as we are all getting screwed.
Going back on HilmarGÇÖs promise to listen to vast majority of EvE players and catering only to the delinquents and Sociopaths of EvE (which includes the CSM) and because its taking too long to develop Dust 514. The Eve online Crucible expansion will include the following new Planetary Interaction GÇ£featuresGÇ¥.
Player owned Customs office (POCOGÇÖs) in Low and Null space that will cost Millions of ISK to deploy and only have enough hit points for about 20 minutes for a small Battleship fleet. Better yet they are unprotected! ThatGÇÖs right no station guns! Anybody at anytime can come by shoot at your POCO whenever with complete impunity? The Null Sec trolls on the forums are defending this GÇ£FeatureGÇ¥ for PI but if we did the same for Moon towers, oh the tears.
Now you can control who uses YOUR POCO so all you have to do is take over all of the limited Plasma Planets in the EvE Universe and Hey you can corner the market on say Chiral structures, because we did not learn the same lesson with Dysporite. But donGÇÖt worry if this becomes a problem we will come up with a solution like PI Alchemy.
And as a bonus if you are first online when the expansion hits. In addition to a useless implant you can destroy as many Interbus Customs offices as possible and anything inside left by unsuspecting players in different time zones.
So Pinch yourself because Eve Online is turning into Star Trek online.
|
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
486
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 01:00:00 -
[256] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote:As you can see, P4 products have a PI tax almost 50 times higher than P1 or P2 products, when compared to final market prices. Do you intend to ever 're-balance' the tariff levels for each tier so that they are more in line with each other? Tax rates really should be doing the base mineral price thing that insurance does; recalculate per-item base price ever month or so. 84,000 AUR ($420) spent on NeX store for Troll and Profit. |
Mishatola
Atoll Explorers
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 02:19:00 -
[257] - Quote
Ok, ran some numbers on those tax rates and i'm worried.
They need to be high enough so that my future overlord gets some benefit from opening up his CO to me, rather than eluding everyone not in his corp ... so that they get more stuff from the planet with their own colonies. right now they are so low that its better for a corp to not open it up!!! |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
130
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 03:29:00 -
[258] - Quote
I thought you said that it shouldn't be able to be put up at a POS?
POCO inside POS
Not only that, it can be put up inside a POS shield...
Now that I have your attention, let's talk about giving defenders a Defensive Choice rather than only being a victim of random attackers that don't care if they commit.
POCO attackers need to have a COMMITMENT to an attack (like SBU's that cost money) not just a random pinata in space for random griefers to hit. This seriously needs consideration to fix.
NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Bull Eramix
Mimidae Risk Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 03:42:00 -
[259] - Quote
You could always anchor one outside of a station to prevent people from ganking haulers... the station guns would help if they go GCC.
Same outcome if people attack it?
http://imgur.com/REHaC
|
Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 04:13:00 -
[260] - Quote
Mishatola wrote:Ok, ran some numbers on those tax rates and i'm worried.
They need to be high enough so that my future overlord gets some benefit from opening up his CO to me, rather than eluding everyone not in his corp ... so that they get more stuff from the planet with their own colonies. right now they are so low that its better for a corp to not open it up!!!
Yup, that was pointed out in the original thread and was ignored.
But hey, they made the cargo capacity of the PCO 35000 m3!!! /sarcasm off
|
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
368
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 05:27:00 -
[261] - Quote
Revisiting suggested numbers from post #96 in this thread.
1. Hi-sec COs need to charge a 50% tariff.
- This gives lo-sec POCOs a lot more headroom with which to compete on tariff rates in order to draw in clients. If hi-sec COs charge 10%, people are going to look at lo-sec POCOs attempting to charge 30-50% and scoff - even if they could net more product per day from a PI harvest world in lo-sec.
- It puts a hard cap on how badly a POCO owner can screw you over with the tariff rate when compared to just going to hi-sec and using a hi-sec CO. Currently, with the hi-sec COs using a 10% tariff, if the POCO owner decides to suddenly charge you 100%, you're being soaked for 10x what you would have paid in hi-sec. If the hi-sec COs charge a 50% tariff, then the worst-case with a POCO is that you'll pay 2x more tariffs. That reduces the main worry with a POCO to being locked out entirely.
2. The tariffs across tiers need to make sense and should be based on the ratios of inputs to outputs between the tiers. It gets a bit odd in the P3 and P4 product chains, but you can pick a middle point for those tiers and use a simple multiplier to set the base tariffs.
- Alternately, CCP needs to set the tariffs at the start of each month based on some percentage of the 5% or 10% sell volume across all of hi-sec.
Approximate ratios between the tiers. P0 = 1x
P0:P1 is 150x (so the P1 tariff should be 150x the P0 tariff) P2 is 2400x (P1:P2 ratio is 16:1, so P2 tariff should be 2400x the P0 tariff) P3 - 20400x (which is an 8.5 ratio above P2, some P3 is a 6.67:1 ratio of P2:P3, other is a 10:1 ratio) P4 - 307200x (which is 128:1 over the P3)
Suggested tariffs (for hi-sec, assuming that the hi-sec COs are set to a 50% tariff setting):
P0 - 0.25 / 0.50 P1 - 37.5 / 75 (P0 tariff x 150) P2 - 600 / 1200 (P0 tariff x 2400) P3 - 5100 / 10200 (P0 tariff x 20400) P4 - 76800 / 153600 (P0 tariff x 307200)
Impacts:
- The lower priced P1 goods will have to go up in price in order to be viable with the higher export taxes. Instead of 150-800 for P1, you're more likely to see 250-900 ISK/u market sell prices.
- For P2, which are 4500-11000, the price band will have to rise a bit into the 6000-12500 range.
- For P3, the impact won't be as large, but instead of paying 22000-65000, you'll have to pay 35000-75000 for P3s.
- For P4, the impact will be less and most goods will only go up about 50-60k ISK/u in price. But since the inputs will probably be more expensive, expect P4 prices in the 800k to 1600k range.
Alternate write-up: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=374795#post374795 |
pussnheels
Vintage heavy industries
169
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 08:52:00 -
[262] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:pussnheels wrote:Dear CCP do you actually read the feedback ; on those 89 pages of feed back the overwhelming majority said NO bad idea and what did you do ?? Yep just went ahead and itroduced a new game mechanic that will NEVER work
Why ccp WHY They addressed pretty much the only valid points made in those 89 pages. 88 pages were hysterical rewording of the exact same non-fact based imaginings.
NO the whole concept is just utterly stupid , the devs stated that they expect more corporation working together , basicly they have NO idea how players view their competition ; like a earlier poster wrote EVE turns peiople into evil beings Nobody trust others outside the core of their own corporation another fact they will be on killmails , GRIEFERS UNITE here is a new toy for them Are you willing to invest 800 mil to 1.8 bil to get your own POCO knowing they will never repay them or knowing that the first idiot with too much time can blow them up
Nah i am really getting pissed at CCP , they like a bunch of lords high in their castle who have NO idea what is happening or moving among their peasants ,They don't even have any idea why people refuse to go into nullsec anymore , their only solution lets nerf high sec industry to death Unless their is a serious revolt like last summer they will never notice
I am afraid that after the winter expansion is out and we the peasants are happy again they will just go back to their castles and do what they are good at , catering for the Nullsec highlords I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Zleon Leigh
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 09:06:00 -
[263] - Quote
They never stopped since this is a catered development for the nullsec overlords. They get more isk with practically no risk to their investment. They couldn't have asked for anything more tailored to them.
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Sanche Tehkeli
Bionesis Technologies Electus Matari
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 10:29:00 -
[264] - Quote
Would be cool if this thread stays for its initial purpose : receiving feedback and questions for the Dev Blog author and his team, for what is written or answered. NOT to refute the feature itself (not the place, not the time, not even the right) and not theorycraft whatever local situation is or will be. There is Test Server feedback to start threads. Half posts are quote wars of arguments and it's really not the place, some would like questions answered.
Quote:
- What happen to goods in Reinforced POCOs ? Or, are POCOs still accessible while in reinforced mode, in order to move goods away ?
- Are goods in hangar jettisoned when POCOs are destroyed ?
- Are players with Planetary Installations (not necessarily from owner corp) somewhat warned when their planet's POCO is assaulted ? How to know we have to evacuate goods from POCOs before they get destroyed ?
- Are POCO grids completely static or is there a plan to be able to set a new POCO at different coordinates ?
- Are POCOs allowed to have names ?
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
131
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 10:38:00 -
[265] - Quote
Sanche Tehkeli wrote:Would be cool if this thread stays for its initial purpose : receiving feedback and questions for the Dev Blog author and his team, for what is written or answered. NOT to refute the feature itself (not the place, not the time, not even the right) and not theorycraft whatever local situation is or will be. There is Test Server feedback to start threads. Half posts are quote wars of arguments and it's really not the place, some would like questions answered. Funnily enough, there's no official Test server thread for this feature, and player-started ones have been ignored by devs.
Meanwhile, most of your questions were answered in the previous thread:
* What happen to goods in Reinforced POCOs ? Or, are POCOs still accessible while in reinforced mode, in order to move goods away ?
Yes, POCOs are operative while reinforced.
* Are goods in hangar jettisoned when POCOs are destroyed ?
No. CCP doesnt want POCOs shot for loot, so they drop nothing.
* Are players with Planetary Installations (not necessarily from owner corp) somewhat warned when their planet's POCO is assaulted ? How to know we have to evacuate goods from POCOs before they get destroyed ?
Not answered, but I would guess not.
* Are POCO grids completely static or is there a plan to be able to set a new POCO at different coordinates ?
POCOs can be anchored anywhere within 10000 km of a planet.
* Are POCOs allowed to have names ?
No. Probably because of the "time to *****" rule, that they are visible in the entire system (unlike towers), and the sheer number makes names hard to police (unlike 0.0 outposts). |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
44
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 11:14:00 -
[266] - Quote
Sanche Tehkeli wrote:some would like questions answered. Quote:
- What happen to goods in Reinforced POCOs ? Or, are POCOs still accessible while in reinforced mode, in order to move goods away ?
- Are goods in hangar jettisoned when POCOs are destroyed ?
- Are players with Planetary Installations (not necessarily from owner corp) somewhat warned when their planet's POCO is assaulted ? How to know we have to evacuate goods from POCOs before they get destroyed ?
- Are POCO grids completely static or is there a plan to be able to set a new POCO at different coordinates ?
- Are POCOs allowed to have names ?
All those questions were answered in the original thread on player-owned customs offices. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
133
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 12:39:00 -
[267] - Quote
Does CCP want any player feedback or testing on the POCOs?
This is one of the very few expansion features without its own thread on the Test Server Feedback forum. They haven't even seeded the gantry structures on Sisi, so to test this feature on the test server, you have to jump through hoops and run FW missions on there. Even without an official thread, people are posting about it and the devs are not replying.
Omen dissapeared from the thread after just a couple hours (even faster than the last time). Is he even still reading? Will he post again? Or does he only communicate through devblogs?
I was looking forward to POCOs. But at this rate, it looks like the rollout will be a complete mess. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
557
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 13:04:00 -
[268] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Does CCP want any player feedback or testing on the POCOs?
This is one of the very few expansion features without its own thread on the Test Server Feedback forum. They haven't even seeded the gantry structures on Sisi, so to test this feature on the test server, you have to jump through hoops and run FW missions on there. Even without an official thread, people are posting about it and the devs are not replying.
Omen dissapeared from the thread after just a couple hours (even faster than the last time). Is he even still reading? Will he post again? Or does he only communicate through devblogs?
I was looking forward to POCOs. But at this rate, it looks like the rollout will be a complete mess.
It seems like they've decided that the players be damned, they're emotionally attached to this idea so they're doing it whatever the consequences. Simple, common sense things, like leaving customs offices indestructible and offlining them in the presense of a PCO, would alleviate most of the concerns out there and allow these to smoothly flow into the system... but to hell with common sense. They want it NOW, not when it's done right. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
John DaiSho
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 13:41:00 -
[269] - Quote
Wheres the common sense that Interbus is going to offline their COs only because some capsuleer thinks he has to anchor his own CO at a planet? Why is it a problem anyway that COs can be killed and need to be defended if you dont want your PI infrastructure crippled? Why dont you defend your assets? Why dont you go to highsec if you dont want to? There are Concord COs everywhere and you will always be able to acces them. But if you want more yield from your extractors then you have to fight for it.
o/ John |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
557
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 13:50:00 -
[270] - Quote
John DaiSho wrote:Wheres the common sense that Interbus is going to offline their COs only because some capsuleer thinks he has to anchor his own CO at a planet? Why is it a problem anyway that COs can be killed and need to be defended if you dont want your PI infrastructure crippled? Why dont you defend your assets? Why dont you go to highsec if you dont want to? There are Concord COs everywhere and you will always be able to acces them. But if you want more yield from your extractors then you have to fight for it.
o/ John
What you view as "common sense" is irrelevant to good gameplay, else there would never have been customs offices in wormholes in the first place.
One big problem that you're seemingly incapable of grasping is with low sec PI being run by folks in NPC corps. If you have some blowfish in low put up a PCO on planets they're using, they're screwed. Even if they go and blow it up, they still can't do their PI because now there's nothing there at all. They have nothing to fight for at all and simply go away. However, if you have the customs offices currently present come back online when the PCO is destroyed you've added a whole new dynamic... the people in high sec have something to actually fight for! They can now go into low, blow the offending PCO to hell and back and regain access to their PI. This is the kind of dynamic that can pull people together for a common goal... the current system simply pushes them away as irrelevant.
By the way, Sparky, I live in a wormhole. Aside from the unnecessary logistical pain in the ass this poorly thought out concept introduces this will ultimately have little effect on me over time... unless I move holes or the like. However, I'm capable of thinking outside the hole to see the bigger picture. You should try it. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
133
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:10:00 -
[271] - Quote
Ingvar, you keep confusing your ideas with common sense. The simple fact that many people don't agree with you show they are not "common sense". They may be good or not, but in any case they require massive changes to the mechanic that CCP can't do in time for the expansion anyway.
I'm more worried about CCP not interacting with us about their current implementation. They don't provide us with testing tools (seeding the structures, giving us a central location for implementation feedback), nor acknowledge or clarify bug reports.
For example, tax rates on Sisi make no sense (P0 > P1). Are the devs even aware of this? Also, you can't attack a CO with drones, they just ignore your orders. Is this intended? If so, why are they penalizing gallente drone boats? (both have been bug reported).
We've seen CCP take this approach before. It never ends well. It ends with threadnaughts on release day over stuff that was known but ignored on Sisi. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
558
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:46:00 -
[272] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Ingvar, you keep confusing your ideas with common sense. The simple fact that many people don't agree with you show they are not "common sense". They may be good or not, but in any case they require massive changes to the mechanic that CCP can't do in time for the expansion anyway.
I'm more worried about CCP not interacting with us about their current implementation. They don't provide us with testing tools (seeding the structures, giving us a central location for implementation feedback), nor acknowledge or clarify bug reports.
For example, tax rates on Sisi make no sense (P0 > P1). Are the devs even aware of this? Also, you can't attack a CO with drones, they just ignore your orders. Is this intended? If so, why are they penalizing gallente drone boats? (both have been bug reported).
We've seen CCP take this approach before. It never ends well. It ends with threadnaughts on release day over stuff that was known but ignored on Sisi.
I think you've hit on a main concern there... they're so intent on releasing it based on a schedule that they're not taking the time to make sure they're releasing a product that's actually ready for release. Forget the freakin' calendar dates, get it right from day one and push day one out a little if you have to!
To be fair... many have also agreed with me. You meany-poopyhead. *cough* sorry 'bout that *cough* Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
KC-01000011
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:02:00 -
[273] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:To quote from the latest blog GÇ£One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removedGÇ¥
What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?
The GÇ£NewGÇ¥ CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not.
This
Quote:we believe we have a pretty good grasp on your feedback
Seems to be sarcastic? can't tell...
Did you even read all 85+ pages? Or just answered to the couple of posts that fitted your schedule?
Also; good job on giving them killmails, you've just given 3th parties that wan't absolute nothing to do with with PI (and therefore will never replace the POCO's themselves for profit) one more reason to shoot them down. |
Darkstar David
Veterans Fleet
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:08:00 -
[274] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:Also, I still think this is a pretty terrible idea you are trying to impose especially in low sec and NPC zero sec. PI in its current implementation is incredible limited and consist of moving dots around and pressing a few buttons. Simplistic, tedious and boring gameplay will many agree to. But some find it interesting game play anyhow, just like some people enjoy mining. PI (on the planet) can easily be done by a solo or small corporation which gives them purpose.
Now you brilliant idea is forcing these people either into a gameplay that is pretty much the opposite of the current PI (adrenaline pumping ship to ship combat) or the option to abandon PI altogether (on their way to doing the same with EVE in general). I seriously cannot see the selling point in limiting peopleGÇÖs access to one game feature by letting another be able to rule over it. That is the reason why Darkfall is crap if you are interests are in crafting and market mechanics because hackGÇÖnGÇÖslash rule all. Same reason why people who enjoy fighting against other players hate when they are forced into PvE raids to get gear for these fights.
Within a month or so we will see one blob of players identifying what PI mineral is the bottleneck, stock it up and then wipe out all POCOs in low sec, or take them over to exclude everybody else, for that particular mineral. Or we will see the Goons doing us all a favor by rapidly destroying each and every POCO in low sec.
Fundamentally; did you seriously believe people would get more interested in PI when you do not improve on the actual PI mechanics but instead limits peopleGÇÖs access to them? What kind of player are you hoping to draw in with this?
If PvP should be a greater element in PI it should have be done on the darn planets.
Perfectly explained. Please CCP, take note... |
Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:57:00 -
[275] - Quote
This is basically a example of mind over matter.
We don't matter and CCP doesn't mind. |
Solo Player
78
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:27:00 -
[276] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote: What you view as "common sense" is irrelevant to good gameplay, else there would never have been customs offices in wormholes in the first place.
Absurd! Let me correct that:
What some view as "good gameplay" is irrelevant to common sense.
In a sandbox, common sense always takes precedent over "good gameplay", if there even is such a thing. Gameplay is reserved for games and might at most apply for a certain mechanic in EVE, and always needs to make sense within the larger vision. At least that's what I always thought. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
132
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:16:00 -
[277] - Quote
New Interbus CO"s a BAD IDEA!
Look, the only thing you're doing is adding a 2 hour+ investment PER PLANET ON TOP OF an 80Million ISK cost to anyone who wants to ACTUALLY USE YOUR SYSTEM. If someone actually wants to setup a POCO Network now, you're just making it a PAIN in the ASS for them to do so! So what incentive are you giving people to USE it except more hassle?
I seriously think you need to make those Interbus POCO's have about 1/3 of the HP of their player made counterparts, so that there is more than a monetary incentive to put up your own POCO but also more importantly a tactical decision to not have an easily destroyed space object!
Also, PLEASE review the Defense Choice paradigm on the attack system so that there is an option to defend other than being force to go at your reinforcement timer. NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:26:00 -
[278] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote: What you view as "common sense" is irrelevant to good gameplay, else there would never have been customs offices in wormholes in the first place.
Absurd! Let me correct that: What some view as "good gameplay" is irrelevant to common sense. In a sandbox, common sense always takes precedent over "good gameplay", if there even is such a thing. Gameplay is reserved for games and might at most apply for a certain mechanic in EVE, and always needs to make sense within the larger vision. At least that's what I always thought.
I suppose you just arbitrarily decided that, right? There must be some rule that specifically states common sense takes precedence over good gameplay. No? Okay.
You can't play semantics to refute someone's argument. EvE Online is a game. I'm tired of hearing this "sandbox" garbage. When you go to www.eveonline.com, what phrase is displayed at the top the webpage? The frickin' game website wrote:"The world's largest game universe."
Furthermore, if you feel that common sense takes precedence over good gameplay, then answer this: why DO customs offices exist in wormhole space?
I could list literally hundreds of things about EvE that flat-out do NOT make sense if applied to realistic science, among other things. That's why it's called science-fiction.
Instead of droning on about things "making sense", why don't you do what many other players have done in the past and create the explanation yourself? If it doesn't make sense to you, then make it make sense to everyone. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
559
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 18:44:00 -
[279] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote:New Interbus CO"s a BAD IDEA!
Look, the only thing you're doing is adding a 2 hour+ investment PER PLANET ON TOP OF an 80Million ISK cost to anyone who wants to ACTUALLY USE YOUR SYSTEM. If someone actually wants to setup a POCO Network now, you're just making it a PAIN in the ASS for them to do so! So what incentive are you giving people to USE it except more hassle?
I seriously think you need to make those Interbus POCO's have about 1/3 of the HP of their player made counterparts, so that there is more than a monetary incentive to put up your own POCO but also more importantly a tactical decision to not have an easily destroyed space object!
Also, PLEASE review the Defense Choice paradigm on the attack system so that there is an option to defend other than being force to go at your reinforcement timer.
I think they should have triple the HP, 99% resists and the option to select whatever tax you feel is fair to pay, as well as the complete inability to lock anyone out of PI.
See! I can have bad ideas too! Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Solo Player
78
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 18:45:00 -
[280] - Quote
Chicken Pizza wrote: I suppose you just arbitrarily decided that, right? There must be some rule that specifically states common sense takes precedence over good gameplay. No? Okay.
Quoting because that is seriously funny. Irony?
Quote:The frickin' game website wrote:"The world's largest game universe."
Indeed. "Universe" being the noun, "game" merely its attribute.
Quote: Furthermore, if you feel that common sense takes precedence over good gameplay, then answer this: why DO customs offices exist in wormhole space?
Because someone had a bad idea (placing "gameplay" above "sense")?
Quote: I could list literally hundreds of things about EvE that flat-out do NOT make sense if applied to realistic science, among other things. That's why it's called science-fiction.
Instead of droning on about things "making sense", why don't you do what many other players have done in the past and create the explanation yourself? If it doesn't make sense to you, then make it make sense to everyone.
Please read up more about science fiction. I don't have to pay 15 bucks/month to make up pretty things in my mind. What's your point?
|
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Wolodymyr
Mando'a Navy Controlled Chaos
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 18:51:00 -
[281] - Quote
Let the carebears fight!
Allow player owned customs offices to be set up in highsec! |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 19:06:00 -
[282] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:more garbage
Do you even know what irony means?
And..let's see...more reinforcing of what i said...
Ah! There's one. If customs offices are a bad idea in wormhole space, then what do you propose? Planetary launches? Don't make me laugh.
I think maybe you should look up not only words like "irony" before you use them, but also words like "fiction", and maybe do some research on what "common sense" is. Fiction and common sense are not synonymous in the least.
I can see you don't really have anything to say of actual value anymore, though I'm hard-pressed to find anything of actual value that you've already said in the first place. There's got to be something...
Go play a free-to-play game if 15 dollars a month is what you consider being worth small aesthetic changes so things "make sense". |
Solo Player
78
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 19:20:00 -
[283] - Quote
Forgive my derailing, but...
u m a d ? |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 19:50:00 -
[284] - Quote
Solo Player wrote:Forgive my derailing, but...
u m a d ?
Naw, because I know it'll never happen. And even if it did, I'd just avoid the hassle. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 19:57:00 -
[285] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:pussnheels wrote:Dear CCP do you actually read the feedback ; on those 89 pages of feed back the overwhelming majority said NO bad idea and what did you do ?? Yep just went ahead and itroduced a new game mechanic that will NEVER work
Why ccp WHY They addressed pretty much the only valid points made in those 89 pages. 88 pages were hysterical rewording of the exact same non-fact based imaginings.
As someone with plenty of pages worth of fact or experience based objections, I disagree. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 20:00:00 -
[286] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Does CCP want any player feedback or testing on the POCOs?
This is one of the very few expansion features without its own thread on the Test Server Feedback forum. They haven't even seeded the gantry structures on Sisi, so to test this feature on the test server, you have to jump through hoops and run FW missions on there. Even without an official thread, people are posting about it and the devs are not replying.
Omen dissapeared from the thread after just a couple hours (even faster than the last time). Is he even still reading? Will he post again? Or does he only communicate through devblogs?
I was looking forward to POCOs. But at this rate, it looks like the rollout will be a complete mess.
I agree. He actually wanted to discuss some of the far-reaching implications, but bowed out for some reason. The early discussion was exactly what the players are looking for. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 20:05:00 -
[287] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Ingvar, you keep confusing your ideas with common sense. The simple fact that many people don't agree with you show they are not "common sense". They may be good or not, but in any case they require massive changes to the mechanic that CCP can't do in time for the expansion anyway.
I'm more worried about CCP not interacting with us about their current implementation. They don't provide us with testing tools (seeding the structures, giving us a central location for implementation feedback), nor acknowledge or clarify bug reports.
For example, tax rates on Sisi make no sense (P0 > P1). Are the devs even aware of this? Also, you can't attack a CO with drones, they just ignore your orders. Is this intended? If so, why are they penalizing gallente drone boats? (both have been bug reported).
We've seen CCP take this approach before. It never ends well. It ends with threadnaughts on release day over stuff that was known but ignored on Sisi.
On the massive changes... If massive changes are required to make the feature work, it needs to be pulled. Period. Being a software developer for a large company, my #1 priority is the customer's welfare. When we screw customers, we lose buiness and revenue. This translates to cutbacks in resources (think lay offs).
Leaving the current system in place will not harm players. Putting this in half-baked will cause more havok than we've ever seen. |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
114
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 20:40:00 -
[288] - Quote
Oh well, guess it is too late to wish for changes now; POCOs will be released as stated in this blog and CCP will monitor and adjust "if needed".
It is not because I do not appreciate what CCP is trying to achieve here and, back in the days, I would perhaps believed it could succeed. But the whole point of CCP Greyscales "Lessons Learned" were exactly to demonstrate how mechanics that were initially thought out to bring interesting and engaging play to the game turned out to fail in the real world of EVE, and therefore should be avoided to use in new mechanics. (Unless CCP follows a corporate policy of identifying poor design so it can be repeated). As POCO mechanics does not only fit one but many of the items on Greyscales list I would have to be incredible naive to believe POCOs will be a success*.
Link to CCP Greyscales list about Lessons Learned regarding unsatisfying gameplay.
*: I suspect the team never decided upon a way to determine success or failure, as such; it will of course be a success. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 00:45:00 -
[289] - Quote
I've been playing with the new numbers for the taxes and... they seem a bit odd. If they stay as they currently are on sisi, exporting by launchpad will cost more than export by command center at a rate of 10%. One would have to have a tax rate lower than 7.5% if they want to be cheaper than exporting by command center. More details on the numbers here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=377210#post377210 PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them! |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
17
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 05:59:00 -
[290] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Lessons learned
Shooting at stationary structures is boring IT'S BORING. STOP GIVING US UNNECESSARY STRUCTURES TO BLOW UP. See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. Even the good fights that do happen around such objectives could be improved by having better objectives.
Shooting at things with hitpoints scales very efficiently with fleet size, which encourages lag-producing behavior People will hotdrop them. People will provoke fleet fights over them. Just how we'll be affected by it is yet to be seen, but clearly the possibilities have not been taken into account.
Having to spend significant amounts of effort defeating an enemy which isn't even fighting back is really boring ONCE AGAIN IT'S ******* BORING. See: Starbase warfare, Dominion sov warfare. See in particular how long it took to clear IT Alliance's ownership out of Delve, as a recent example
Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring Boring is a bad thing, CCP. A bad thing. Not a good thing. See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool
Doing something just "because it would be cool/neat/awesome" is always a bad idea and will come back to bite you later See: Jump bridges, cyno jammers, Sov 4, AoE doomsdays, titans in general, supercarrier boost... Note that we should still obviously strive to make everything cool/neat/awesome, but when we start off with an awesome idea rather than an actual problem we want to fix or a feature that has a clear, functional and necessary goal, it generally requires painful fixes further down the road Is the goal of the POCO necessary? No. Have you learned nothing from your past mistakes? Have fun with your painful fixes.
Cost is a useful variable to tune but an unwise thing to rely on to enforce scarcity or balance - players will always be richer than you think See: outposts, titans, supercarriers
Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it This is important, possibly more than you realize. But you need to keep in mind that there is a balance within the spectrum of tedium that you MUST maintain. The concept of the POCO is tedious by nature. You grind LP/ISK to buy a BPC, you grind ISK for buying/produce your own materials to build it with. You spend time building it, must defend it, repair it, treat it like an undefended miniPOS. Your contact list will become an unmanageable clusterfawk. It's nothing but tedium. You expend far too much effort for relatively no gain unless you **** off/drive away the local populace. And that is harmful. See: everything involving starbases. As a counterpoint though, things like the one-per-corp-per-system-per-day starbase rule demonstrate that if something doesn't make a big difference but is sufficiently awkward to do, then any theoretical "exploit" scenarios tend to fall out of favor quickly as they're just not worth the effort.
People like to do one-stop shopping, and will "go to Jita" for everything unless doing so is comparatively very inconvenient See: moon mineral distribution, high-strength booster resource distribution, neither of which achieved much in the way of the nullsec-to-nullsec trade that they hoped to encourage
My 2 cents are italicized.
Whoever was posting this earlier, I felt the need to post it again. They need to put this damn thing up on their walls in poster form. Maybe some motivational posters. I should make some for them. They should chant it every day when they come into work, like our Pledge of Allegiance in schools(bad example because that's actually a stupid requirement. But mine isn't!!). |
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
144
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 10:46:00 -
[291] - Quote
A question for any devs that might still be reading this thread. Are you watching the test server feedback forum for the bugs and problems people are reporting? Can you acknowledge or comment on them? Examples so far:
- Customs offices can be anchored inside POS force fields or right on a station undock as long as the distance to the planet is small enough.
- Drones ignore orders to attack customs offices.
- Customs offices have extremely small (100m) sig radius, so any missiles larger than heavies don't apply full damage.
- Taxes for P0 items are larger than P1, and both are very different from the expected values.
Keep in mind, this is what people found despite all the obstacles to acquire a gantry on Sisi. Who knows what will actually surface once everyone is using them on TQ. |
Vio Geraci
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
82
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 10:57:00 -
[292] - Quote
So many tears in response to a nuanced, well-thought out game change that will make a boring world of dots and lines actually result in player driven conflict/content. For shame, babies, for shame: CCP did good on this one. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
570
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 12:00:00 -
[293] - Quote
Vio Geraci wrote:So many tears in response to a nuanced, well-thought out game change that will make a boring world of dots and lines actually result in player driven conflict/content. For shame, babies, for shame: CCP did good on this one.
Wait a minute, what are you looking... oh, wait... Goon.
Nevermind. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
John DaiSho
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 14:39:00 -
[294] - Quote
Heh, and hes actually right. |
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations 0ccupational Hazzard
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 15:14:00 -
[295] - Quote
Hey,
Thx for the update! Good changes. I like the smooth Interbus in-between solution. Tried to shoot a Interbus office with a siege dread + Mega , but got bored after a few minutes :-)
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Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 19:53:00 -
[296] - Quote
As Quoted in DEV Blog "We hope that you like the adjustments we are doing, we certainly value the feedback!
The Player Owned Customs Office feature will launch with the winter expansion.
May your plans be dark and full of tax money!
Best regards
CCP Omen on behalf of Team Pi"
Basically No! for the simple reasons we hold a C4 WH with 5 corp players who use the PI to fuel our POS. so who the Heck are we going to tax in that WH, The only other players who are in there are either PVPers or site raiders, and they sure as F**K aint interested in PI, when are you going to wake up Bud, to the fact that in a WH we have no one else to tax but ourselves and that is just plain stupid, I really wonder whether you have an education or actually play in this environment to see the balls up this is for WSpacers in general. Also as we are mainly in WH space with access out being way to unpredictable the BPC's are going to be almost inaccessable to us as we cannot achieve the points in a sensible time or run the risk of leaving the POS undefended. Thats like leaving a Porche down town in the roughest area you can find and expect it to stay in one Piece whilst you go about finding or in this case making the new fuel. and the mechanism to get the fuel to your car, talk about dumb... it just dont come in to it.... |
Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 20:11:00 -
[297] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Here are some replies to topics raised:
"People will grief the Interbus COs" That is quite probable, even with this change of deployment, our guiding light is that EVE is player driven. This way the transition between NPC owned and Player owned will be smoother. It's no silver bullet and balancing between player driven and player convenience is very difficult. Our hope remain that you, the player will organize and sort out the supply and demand of PI goods and the availability of Customs Offices. If that does not happen, and there is a measurable decline in lowsec or PI activity then we will act. How we act will be decided if that event occurs, but we will not simply let lowsec die. We strive to invigorate lowsec, not just with this feature but for the long run. You may disagree that this feature will accomplish that, but that is never the less one of our goals and we will monitor how it pans out.
"Do you think more people will do PI?" No, as many have pointed out the PI gameplay in itself is far from perfect and we are absolutely not trying to make people do PI. The player owned customs offices are meant to increase meaningful space conflict and the verisimilitude of the EVE universe. Actual improvements to PI is an entirely different topic. Having said that, we are hoping for activity to stay somewhat the same.
"Did you have a clue the prices went up based on the previous blog?" Yes - absolutely and that was expected. We also fully expect the prices of PI goods to be unstable while the market adapts. The higher prices are in fact essential to drive motivation to operate Customs Offices. In the end, we believe the prices of for instance POS fuel will stabilize as we have seen with nearly all other player driven commodities in EVE.
"You did not account for all or even most of the feedback to the first thread" We acted on the feedback that we agreed with and that was feasible within the time frame. Many ideas were excellent but too grand.
Regards Omen
Still no support for WSpacers then, you sure as hell never played in that environment, its all, oh we will keep an eye on low sec; typical stereo typed approach. and very blinkered... |
Markata Lazair
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 20:14:00 -
[298] - Quote
To hell with the details, I am looking forward to setting up some POCOs in our w-space system just so we can lure a few people away from the WH itself to shoot at it. |
Vio Geraci
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
82
|
Posted - 2011.11.18 22:02:00 -
[299] - Quote
Markata Lazair wrote:To hell with the details, I am looking forward to setting up some POCOs in our w-space system just so we can lure a few people away from the WH itself to shoot at it.
I bet you could make a whole mini profession of finding wormholes that have static connections to high sec, and populating the planets there. Who is going to bother blowing them up? You'd never need to look at the wormhole again, either, after all the POCOs are down. |
Solar Wander
5th Front enterprises Mayhem.
1
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Posted - 2011.11.18 23:37:00 -
[300] - Quote
I believe the mistake many of the posters on this Blog have made, was the belief that CCP actually wanted to hear your input on the PCCO, so that meaningful changes if necessary could be made from suggestion from those who regularly play the game. I feel that the decision to go ahead with this, in my opinion erroneous change, was made long before the announcement was ever made. I am sure hundreds of man hours had gone into the implementation and programming of this feature and why would CCP want to lose that kind of investment simply by listening to what their subscribers felt was a bad move. All this posturing about listening to what people actually want is just that, posturing to appease the masses. By saying the inclusion of this is what some players at the Fanfest indicated they would like to see is just another attempt to justify CCP in their plans to put this in place. I wonder how many people actually attended that forum, and how does that compare to how many have posted their disdain for this change to the CO? After this change is implemented how much time will have passed and how many players will have left in frustration before we again get an apology saying sorry people we didnGÇÖt listen to you and realise we should have taken our player base more into account before making changes, or maybe it will be more like GÇ£We at CCP are constantly listening to our players and as a result we have decided to enhance the game by moving COs under NPC control to further improve the immersive game that Eve-online has becomeGÇ¥, Hmm I wonder. I will continue to monitor this blog but I have lost any hope of major change occurring, but expect to see the odd tinkering. By the way this is not intended to be a Flame or Troll of any sort, merely my thoughts on this matter. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
41
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 02:12:00 -
[301] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:A question for any devs that might still be reading this thread. Are you watching the test server feedback forum for the bugs and problems people are reporting? Can you acknowledge or comment on them? Examples so far:
- Customs offices can be anchored inside POS force fields or right on a station undock as long as the distance to the planet is small enough.
- Drones ignore orders to attack customs offices.
- Customs offices have extremely small (100m) sig radius, so any missiles larger than heavies don't apply full damage.
- Taxes for P0 items are larger than P1, and both are very different from the expected values.
Keep in mind, this is what people found despite all the obstacles to acquire a gantry on Sisi. Who knows what will actually surface once everyone is using them on TQ.
Not sure about the tax, I'd have to check with design on that, but the rest of those have already been fixed this week.
I personally quite liked the CO in the POS setup, emergent and cool but unfortunately has the potential to break things so you won't be seeing that on TQ. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
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Meldan Anstian
Imperial Genesis The Seventh Day
50
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 02:18:00 -
[302] - Quote
Solar Wander wrote:I believe the mistake many of the posters on this Blog have made, was the belief that CCP actually wanted to hear your input on the PCCO, so that meaningful changes if necessary could be made from suggestion from those who regularly play the game. I feel that the decision to go ahead with this, in my opinion erroneous change, was made long before the announcement was ever made. I am sure hundreds of man hours had gone into the implementation and programming of this feature and why would CCP want to lose that kind of investment simply by listening to what their subscribers felt was a bad move. All this posturing about listening to what people actually want is just that, posturing to appease the masses. By saying the inclusion of this is what some players at the Fanfest indicated they would like to see is just another attempt to justify CCP in their plans to put this in place. I wonder how many people actually attended that forum, and how does that compare to how many have posted their disdain for this change to the CO? After this change is implemented how much time will have passed and how many players will have left in frustration before we again get an apology saying sorry people we didnGÇÖt listen to you and realise we should have taken our player base more into account before making changes, or maybe it will be more like GÇ£We at CCP are constantly listening to our players and as a result we have decided to enhance the game by moving COs under NPC control to further improve the immersive game that Eve-online has becomeGÇ¥, Hmm I wonder. I will continue to monitor this blog but I have lost any hope of major change occurring, but expect to see the odd tinkering. By the way this is not intended to be a Flame or Troll of any sort, merely my thoughts on this matter.
Bingo. Note that CCP has not bothered to respond to anything in this thread for quite some time. It reminds me of a saying I heard someplace.... "Customers are not an interruption of our work, they are the reason for it."
In the response thread to the first blog, Omen made statements clearly indicating he did not understand how Eve is really played (like post # 250 for example). In this thread, he states that rising prices of PI products are a big incentive and justification to put up PCO's, but fails to understand the developers own plan. The taxes have no relation to the market value of the product, but are merely a percentage of a fixed number tariff.
Most people really like the concept of PCO's, but the implementation is a festering rotten egg, even after the fixes they announced in the 2nd blog. Many people pointed out many problems, both in this thread and in the first feedback thread and even proposed solutions. The vast majority of both were ignored, citing either that developers disagreed with the ideas/problems mentioned, or didn't have time to implement them.
We essentially have a team of developers who don't understand the game. Sure they know the numbers, statistics, and the coding, but not how people play. I don't condemn them for this, I wouldn't want to code and discuss a game all day and then go home to play it for another few hours. However, they clearly don't have any desire to listen to people who do actually play and pay for the game, which obviously will cause problems in implementing a new feature.
It appears to me that the devs have taken the attitude of "let's do something with this concept, if it breaks something, maybe we'll eventually fix it. Since the players will adjust to market changes, we won't think about that end of things at all." CCP's record for implementing fixes is neither good nor speedy. Omen's statements about how the PCO will justify the expense of anchoring one clearly indicate that the economics were not thought through. Indeed, there have been many players who have done the math and pointed out that the economics don't make sense. This change affects much more than just PI producers and potential PCO owners, but POS owners, producers of T2 anything, the balance of PvE to PvP, basically everyone in Eve is affected to an extent. The dev's apparently do not appreciate how important PI is to the economy as a whole, and wading in with this massive change to it with such poor planning and forethought is just plain stupid.
If the CEO of CCP really does want to correct the wrongs pointed out with monocles, then he should be stopping this half-assed, ill-thought out implementation of a good concept, since a great majority of the players have expressed huge dislike for it. I suspect the CEO is either unaware of this mess or that things at CCP have not really changed. I wish I had his email address.
From the majority of posts on this topic, it seems that players like the concept, are ok with changes to the economy and such as long as the mechanics make sense. Tweeks are expected as well, I don't think that is a problem. A tweek is very different than a "holy crap, this is a disaster, we have to rethink this". The mechanics fail the make sense test miserably.
I, for one, am looking for another game. I like the PvP, the nowhere is totally safe feeling, the free form of Eve, but between monocles, ship spinning and this, the chasm between the developers and the players is just growing larger. |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
36
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 02:46:00 -
[303] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Jack Dant wrote:A question for any devs that might still be reading this thread. Are you watching the test server feedback forum for the bugs and problems people are reporting? Can you acknowledge or comment on them? Examples so far:
- Customs offices can be anchored inside POS force fields or right on a station undock as long as the distance to the planet is small enough.
- Drones ignore orders to attack customs offices.
- Customs offices have extremely small (100m) sig radius, so any missiles larger than heavies don't apply full damage.
- Taxes for P0 items are larger than P1, and both are very different from the expected values.
Keep in mind, this is what people found despite all the obstacles to acquire a gantry on Sisi. Who knows what will actually surface once everyone is using them on TQ. Not sure about the tax, I'd have to check with design on that, but the rest of those have already been fixed this week. I personally quite liked the CO in the POS setup, emergent and cool but unfortunately has the potential to break things so you won't be seeing that on TQ.
I posted something earlier (page 13 I think) but basically take an average market price for each PI item (using best sell order and best buy order price in Jita) and then make and average price for each PI tier - P0 to P4. Compare that to the basic PI tax levels. You'll find that the ratio (PI tax / market price) differs markedly for each PI level. The ratio for P1 and P2 is pretty similar. P0 is above that for P1/2. P3 is about 6-8 time larger than P1/2 and P4 is about 30-40 times larger than P1/2
(EDIT: my post can be found here - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=372829#post372829)
Additionally, have you considered that a 10% tariff rate in highsec doesn't really leave much of a margin for lowsec/nullsec POCOs to entice PI neutrals out to use them instead of highsec. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
69
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 03:38:00 -
[304] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Jack Dant wrote:A question for any devs that might still be reading this thread. Are you watching the test server feedback forum for the bugs and problems people are reporting? Can you acknowledge or comment on them? Examples so far:
- Customs offices can be anchored inside POS force fields or right on a station undock as long as the distance to the planet is small enough.
- Drones ignore orders to attack customs offices.
- Customs offices have extremely small (100m) sig radius, so any missiles larger than heavies don't apply full damage.
- Taxes for P0 items are larger than P1, and both are very different from the expected values.
Keep in mind, this is what people found despite all the obstacles to acquire a gantry on Sisi. Who knows what will actually surface once everyone is using them on TQ. Not sure about the tax, I'd have to check with design on that, but the rest of those have already been fixed this week. I personally quite liked the CO in the POS setup, emergent and cool but unfortunately has the potential to break things so you won't be seeing that on TQ.
As of today on sisi Interbus COs still had a very small sig radius making them take incredibly reduced damage from stealth bomber torps, HAMs, etc. See my post in the "sieging custom offices" thread in the test server forum, https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=384584#post384584
That's gonna be a huge gameplay problem for SB or Caldari gangs and Interbus COs. All the small sigrad does is prevent fighter bombers and phoenixes from farming them, which really shouldn't be the main worry of CCP... give them some kind of workaround or modified sig if you're really worried about FBs.
edit: also please address my tax concerns, https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33468&find=unread |
Haakon BaKaron
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 04:26:00 -
[305] - Quote
Will there be a way to add defenses to a Customs Office? Can you anchor guns next to the office for defense? |
Shalex Cain
Freelance Freight Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 04:54:00 -
[306] - Quote
OK, trollposts by Goons so I guess we know who's going to be "griefing" the CO's on release.
If it happens I'll stand corrected on my prior assumption that they wouldn't bother.
On the subject of defence, et al... I'm not sure what the time to anchor and online the POCO's is but I like to compare them to POS's in that there's an ISK investment, theyr'e a thing that can get trashed when you're offline, and they're a quasi-AFK form of income. I think people are just crying because they're worried someone will turn off their isk spigot or force them to move elsewhere. Rebuilding a PI chain is not the life ending thing it's being made out to be. I've done it a few times. Not only that but the PI in lowsec is many times more profitable than the PI in highsec and quickly pays for my setup and then some. If you're worried baout being shot get a blockade runner, and if you're worried about being camped out of a POCO... really? Has this happened to anyone? I've been concerned about it because I'm a special kind of paranoid but so far I have NEVER encountered anyone on a CO while I was there. ( My visits being a matter of seconds though this is probably a bad example. I don't hang about when people want to kill me ). Also, funny thing about lowsec... no warp bubbles. Easy mode :) I encounter people camping gates and I assume this will not change because gates see far more throughput. As boring as camping gates is imagine you camp a planet. Suppose you pick a day no one is scheduled to pick up their PI? Not only that but which planet? I've heard wailing about Plasma planets being locked down and it's a serious concern. You know what... OK, I rescind my prior anti-whine. PLASMA PLANETS ARE THE NEW TECH MOON. Funny thing about Plasma planets though... they're used for Enriched Uranium I get that... you know what that's made of? Precious Metals and Toxic Metals. You know where else you can Precious Metals? Barren planets, a planet type you can't hit warp without bouncing off of they're so common. Toxic Metals? Plasma, Lava, and Ice planets. You expect Lava and Ice planets to be interdicted in addition to Plasma? You're asking a lot. So you can't then make your precious Enriched Uranium on a single planet, you have to do a little more work which is well worth it if the prices spike to insane-o-ville like everyone's worried about. These things will have a timer, yes. Who hates timers? Gankers, that's who. The price tag on them seems a bit steep for the payout, yes, much like the payout of datacores, or POS reactions, or manufacturing. Anything easy to do for ISK that isn't running missions or anomolies is done and it's done to death. That's what this game is about. You could complain the major alliances are going to make them miserable but it's about priorities. there's only so many wars they can wage simultaneously, only so many POS's they can attack and defend at once. They will trash the Interbus CO's, sure, but eventually, when you stop crying they'll get bored and move on and things will settle down. They're only going to do it for your tears... you're already supplying them. They'll continue to do it until there are no more tears, and when their thermos' are full, they will move on to the next harvest. They do it because they can... and because they hate you... and because you make it enjoyable to them to hate you. Go run a mission or something. I'll be doing PI, somewhere, and making ISk doing it.
|
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
256
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 07:15:00 -
[307] - Quote
To all you ******* cry babies
CCP told us LONG before they implemented the changes and elicited your feedback, so quit your "OMG CCP DIDN'T REPLY TO MY POST, SO THEY IGNORE US ALL!! WAHHHH WAHHHH!!"
You really should be embarrassed, YOU ASKED THEM TO TALK TO YOU, then you ***** when they do.
There are MANY different voices here, it is hard to respond to them all, and honestly many of you only agree that you're unhappy, not on HOW to fix it.
The Devs are HUMAN BEINGS, leave your bully smack the ***** up bullshit in eve, these guys and gals are working their asses off to make this game better right now and you ******* moan like you're butt hurt.
Yes it is THEIR JOB, do you want them to do it well? or just do it.
Stop being assholes, suggest ACTUAL changes, READ each other's posts and agree or disagree and MAKE them better.
CCP, THANKS FOR ALL THE GREAT WORK, DON'T TURN FROM THE FORUMS, WE NEED YA HERE! Repair Drones should be able to repair anyone ... really, they should. -áThink of them as the first targetable subsystem if you're worried about PvP and for missions if someone wants Rep drones over a flight of Hobs, who cares. -áThere is no reasonable objection here other than it's always been that way (so was RR until recently). |
Zleon Leigh
18
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 07:50:00 -
[308] - Quote
Simple - leave this change out of the Winter Expansion. POCO's are screwed up as implemented. Period. Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
293
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 09:35:00 -
[309] - Quote
they are an exellent idea and addition to eve. Those guys who don't like em should HTFU.
This is eve, not cuddle woddle heaven. If you want something you take it, if somebody tries to take your stuff, you shoot em.
oh and btw what do you think will happen to your PI installation when Dust starts to be active? - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
217
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 09:37:00 -
[310] - Quote
Dr Mercy wrote:I posted something earlier (page 13 I think) but basically take an average market price for each PI item (using best sell order and best buy order price in Jita) and then make and average price for each PI tier - P0 to P4. Compare that to the basic PI tax levels. You'll find that the ratio (PI tax / market price) differs markedly for each PI level. The ratio for P1 and P2 is pretty similar. P0 is above that for P1/2. P3 is about 6-8 time larger than P1/2 and P4 is about 30-40 times larger than P1/2 ( EDIT: my post can be found here - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=372829#post372829) Additionally, have you considered that a 10% tariff rate in highsec doesn't really leave much of a margin for lowsec/nullsec POCOs to entice PI neutrals out to use them instead of highsec. This is actually a rather important concern. As is, it's incredibly difficult to make a profit off P0-P3 item tax in low-sec (P3 almost works I think). P4 is fine and almost too high, but P0-P2 give very little revenue stream for the POCO owners, meaning it takes a long time to get an RoI on the 90m capital investment. |
|
Red Zaya
SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 10:07:00 -
[311] - Quote
Ciar Meara wrote:they are an exellent idea and addition to eve. Those guys who don't like em should HTFU.
This is eve, not cuddle woddle heaven. If you want something you take it, if somebody tries to take your stuff, you shoot em.
oh and btw what do you think will happen to your PI installation when Dust starts to be active?
First YOU should HTFU if you are not able to talk with a minimum of respect to others.
Second, this is NOT Eve. This is a choice made by CCP to prepare for Dust. Ofc PI specialists DO know what Dust being active means for PI installations, stop thinking you are a genius (your language shows you are not, lol) and other people are stupid pls.
Third, the main problem that POCOs bring has nothing to do with Dust atm.
The main problem is : then what ?
It is obvious :
Goonswarm is not leaded by childs, they allready shown they can plan large scale operations, and so can do any big block atm. Well, they will destroy custom offices in low sec, they will attempt (and success) to destroy custom offices in null sec which they dont own, and they will protect them in their sovs.
If they dont do so they are stupid and i really dont believe they are
As in any market, the one who controls the ressource controls the price. The rocket raise of PI materials prices, POSes fuel, capitals or stations building IS a reality atm and this will raise far more when POCOs are introduced in game. We all know that (who says no is unrealistic or a Goontroller ).
I'm not crying about this. I make extremly good PI and i'll make far more isk with this . But this will lead numerous players / groups of players to think they have been grieffed by CCP regarding the time skilling their PI took and the cost keeping a pos online will become. This will have huge impact not only with PI market prices, but with ALL items : do you believe BPC will not have their prices raised ? And PLEXes ? So silly
CCP does this to push Dust to the top ... we can understand this, and we shall see if it works ... if this wrecks Eve economy and they loose thousands of players, i'll be the first one who will laugh. It is allways a bad idea to kill the chicken that lays golden eggs
And this have good chances to happen, there are other games atm that offer good alternative to Eve (including EULA accepting players change their isk in irl money) ... the only way for CCP to prevent this would be to make a clear annoucement that players will be given skillpoints back if they want do drop PI. |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
26
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 11:38:00 -
[312] - Quote
I'm getting the impression (based on SISI testing and some :math:) that the devs doing this POCO feature are not very good at :math:
Could you guys, please, spend the time to do the following math bits all yourself, just to see how this goes;
- "How much a POCO will most likely cost on the market?" (in the medium term)
The add up these: - "How long would it take to pay off a POCO with various potential tax rates, based on average export volumes from lowsec planets (I'm sure your economist guy has minions that can dig up the export volume data)?" - "How much would it save in taxes to own a POCO on a planet vs. paying Interbus tax? vs. playing highsec concord tax?"
...and then see what you need to do to make these figures reasonable.
I have a feeling that you guys have mistaken "tax rate" as a flat percentage of the profit the exporter makes off the goods he exports when in reality it is based on completely unrelated "value for taxation purposes" and this completely invalidates what little math you have done. Please take another look.
If it takes months and months to pay off a single POCO (100mil+) off the taxes (savings for yourself, tax profits from others on the same planet), who in their right mind would put that 100 mil+ piece of hardware in harms way for bored corps and alliances to blow up for lulz?
And it's not just one 100 mil investment. Realistically a single player doing PI "seriously" has installations on multiple planets (while "stacking" on same planets with multiple characters). That adds up.
May I suggest putting some smart guys figuring all this stuff out if you plan on building a whole game (Dust 514) out of these interactions with planets? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
146
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 11:52:00 -
[313] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Jack Dant wrote:A question for any devs that might still be reading this thread. Are you watching the test server feedback forum for the bugs and problems people are reporting? Can you acknowledge or comment on them? Examples so far:
- Customs offices can be anchored inside POS force fields or right on a station undock as long as the distance to the planet is small enough.
- Drones ignore orders to attack customs offices.
- Customs offices have extremely small (100m) sig radius, so any missiles larger than heavies don't apply full damage.
- Taxes for P0 items are larger than P1, and both are very different from the expected values.
Keep in mind, this is what people found despite all the obstacles to acquire a gantry on Sisi. Who knows what will actually surface once everyone is using them on TQ. Not sure about the tax, I'd have to check with design on that, but the rest of those have already been fixed this week. I personally quite liked the CO in the POS setup, emergent and cool but unfortunately has the potential to break things so you won't be seeing that on TQ.
Thanks for the reply, and glad to hear about the fixes. Please try to make sure design checks all the economic concerns about taxes, beyond the obvious bug I pointed out.
The CO in a POS was hilarious, but as you say, broken. Proof of why you should let us try to break your code as soon as possible. |
Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
294
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 12:00:00 -
[314] - Quote
Red Zaya wrote: And this have good chances to happen, there are other games atm that offer good alternative to Eve (including EULA accepting players change their isk in irl money) ... the only way for CCP to prevent this would be to make a clear annoucement that players will be given skillpoints back if they want do drop PI.
First of all I have never disrespected any particular person in eve. What I do not respect is typical whining like your quote above. You have no right to trade PI skillpoints. You have no right to free income, anything you do in eve or build can be destroyed by somebody else. Right now this is not the case for customs offices, but this will change.
If the cost of PI materials will increase, more people will be interested in building them. I fully expect alliances or individual corps to try and claim market share by setting up their own POCO's with taxes. Some of them will try to lure other players to work their fields by low taxes, other will want to own the planets themselves and tax more (up to 100%). This is EVE.
If Goonswarm wants to destroy all the interbus stations, build their own and then spend all their time guarding every one they places they will be very busy. If they just want to shoot structures like that they'll be very busy also. I am not saying they won't do it, but they can't be everywhere, all the time, forever. And even if they are, a smart corp/alliance will setup a tower, defend it when its attacked and set a small tax, and earn money with minimal effort in working the planet (but with defence fleets).
At this very moment PI installations are producing minerals and resources for players for free, non-stop, with minimal effort they get all kinds of fancy equipment they can sell on, build with or trade with. There should be a way to steal/extort/trade with them POCO's are that way. No serious miner in low, high or 0.0 has never been ganked, no serious trader has never lost a shipment in awful and annoying ways either. Just like every PVP'er has lost ships, been podded and even lost skillpoints.
Why would PI be the exception, loss is part of live, and it is certainly part of EVE. - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
146
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 12:04:00 -
[315] - Quote
Ciar Meara wrote: If Goonswarm wants to destroy all the interbus stations, build their own and then spend all their time guarding every one they places they will be very busy. If they just want to shoot structures like that they'll be very busy also. I am not saying they won't do it, but they can't be everywhere, all the time, forever. And even if they are, a smart corp/alliance will setup a tower, defend it when its attacked and set a small tax, and earn money with minimal effort in working the planet (but with defence fleets).
Quoting this.
Incidentally, this is why putting defenses on a POCO is a bad idea. Automated defenses will discourage small corps but will mean nothing to the more organized ones. |
Ugleb
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
71
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 12:08:00 -
[316] - Quote
Solar Wander wrote:All this posturing about listening to what people actually want is just that, posturing to appease the masses. By saying the inclusion of this is what some players at the Fanfest indicated they would like to see is just another attempt to justify CCP in their plans to put this in place. I wonder how many people actually attended that forum, and how does that compare to how many have posted their disdain for this change to the CO?
I was at that roundtable and I'd say there were around fifty players crammed into the room for it. And two devs.
There was alot of ideas thrown about and I think that there was some interest expressed for players gaining control over customs office, so its not all coming from CCP. But what we don't know yet is how this will figure into Dust514, I made the comment at the time that PI as we know it is only half the feature it is intended to be and has suffered somewhat from that. We can and should expect PI to evolve and change substantially as Dust comes closer to its full scale launch.
I remember alot of interest coming from players at the roundtable for functionality like trading between planetary colonies and a form of planetary marketplace. Also requests for visual improvements to make PI more user friendly; sometimes its hard to see your translucent white extractor heads against the pale colour of a certain planet's surface (white on white is not all that clear..).
I'd like to see some more work going into that stuff now. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/ |
Caghji
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 12:22:00 -
[317] - Quote
PI becomes harder - rarer - PI prices rise - POS fuel rise - POS products (moon goo tech 2 BP etc) rise - ship/mod price rise
Losers? - players who buy tech 2 / cap ship etc
winners - PI makers
unaffected - POS owners who have always run a tight ship and never treated anything as free - profit margin remains the same (will need a fuel/isk buffer to ride out initial fluctuations in the market) |
Red Zaya
SSD METAL INC. Yulai Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 12:30:00 -
[318] - Quote
@ Ciar Meara Quote: What I do not respect is typical whining like your quote above respect includes being able to read what people write without infering. Few lines before i wrote i'll make far more isk with this, so this was not whining. I try to THINK you should try too, can help and ... LOL you are the big boss so you decide if we have rights ? ROFL, wish you a long reign, little king.
@ Jack Dant : i fully agree with you, automated defences would be worse for smaller entities. Btw with or without defences they wont be able to make PI anymore in low/null sec. And they wont be able to crush large alliances PI in PC nullsec.
In a way, and this is a point i could agree with part of what Cia Meara said, the only thing POCOs will bring is "Eve is real" as the result will be to make strong organizations stronger. Some people will love this, some will say "i paid for a game and now the rules change, give me my money back". This is why i think CCP makes a mistake that could make them loose many players. Would make me laugh but not for long, as i consider "the more players there are, the more fun we'll have" (and the more customers i'll have for my PI ). |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
146
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 13:05:00 -
[319] - Quote
Red Zaya wrote:@ Jack Dant : i fully agree with you, automated defences would be worse for smaller entities. Btw with or without defences they wont be able to make PI anymore in low/null sec. And they wont be able to crush large alliances PI in PC nullsec. In sov 0.0, POCOs will be a real pain.
In lowsec, it won't be highsec corps putting up POCOs. It'll be the lowsec residents (usually outlaws, the occasional anti-pirate), doing it to get some tax from the highsec people doing PI in their system.
Now, because the POCOs are easy to reinforce, and they live there, they'll have a good chance to win a war of attrition vs a 0.0 alliance. If every few days the 0.0 alliance has to form up and do a couple to titan jumps to defend and repair a lowsec POCO, and they don't get a fight, their fleets will be smaller each time, until the locals can actually fight them.
Of course, that is if the economics of it get fixed. |
Max O'Deel
O'Deels Reclaimers
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 13:55:00 -
[320] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Jack Dant wrote:A question for any devs that might still be reading this thread. Are you watching the test server feedback forum for the bugs and problems people are reporting? Can you acknowledge or comment on them? Examples so far:
- Customs offices can be anchored inside POS force fields or right on a station undock as long as the distance to the planet is small enough.
- Drones ignore orders to attack customs offices.
- Customs offices have extremely small (100m) sig radius, so any missiles larger than heavies don't apply full damage.
- Taxes for P0 items are larger than P1, and both are very different from the expected values.
Keep in mind, this is what people found despite all the obstacles to acquire a gantry on Sisi. Who knows what will actually surface once everyone is using them on TQ. Not sure about the tax, I'd have to check with design on that, but the rest of those have already been fixed this week. I personally quite liked the CO in the POS setup, emergent and cool but unfortunately has the potential to break things so you won't be seeing that on TQ.
And you really honestly belive that it would break EVE any more that some of this stuff, you are joking, right? |
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
370
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 13:57:00 -
[321] - Quote
It's the screw up with the tariff rates that have most of us peeved (combined with the hi-sec COs having too low of a rate so that lo-sec POCOs won't be able to compete).
A rational tariff scheme (based on the input/output ratios between the tiers would be roughly) as follows. This would give you approximately the same "percentage of market value" across the board.
P0:P1 - always 150:1 ratio P1:P2 - always 16:1 ratio P2:P3 - is either 6.67:1 or 10:1 ratio (go with 8.5:1 as a middle ground) P3:P4 - is between 12:1 and 16:1 ratio (call it 15:1 on average)
P0 tariff = 1x the P0 tariff P1 tariff = 150x the P0 tariff (currently set to 1/10th of the P0 tariff) P2 tariff = 2400x the P0 tariff (currently set to 18x the P0 tariff) P3 tariff = 20400x the P0 tariff (currently only 1200x) P4 tariff = 306000x the P0 tariff (currently only 100000x)
A more nuanced tariff scheme would be to slightly reduce the tariff ratio at each level. The advantage here is that as you go up through the tiers, you pay slightly less in "percentage of market value". It would reward (even more) taking products up to a higher PI level before exporting them.
P0 tarrif = 1x P1 tariff = 140x P2 tariff = 2000x P3 tariff = 15000x P4 tariff = 200000x
As an example of what those nuanced tariff multipliers would look like if CCP says that we should pay about 100k to export P4 in hi-sec.
P0 - 0.50 ISK/u P1 - 70 ISK/u P2 - 1000 ISK/u P3 - 7500 ISK/u P4 - 100k ISK/u
The bottom end of P1 would have to rise a lot (especially the cheap stuff like Bacteria, Biofuels) instead of 130-190 you'd have to price those at 200-260. The upper-ends wouldn't be as effected, rising from 450-800 up to 550-900.
P2 prices would go up slightly. The lower end P2s would go from 4000-6000 up to 5000-7000. The upper end P2s are around 9000-11000 and would go up to 10000-12000 (about a 10% bump).
P3 prices would change a bit, but not terribly much. The 40-50k items would go up to 47k-60k, the 50-60k band would go up to 58k-68k.
P4 prices would go up about 50k across the board (which was already going to happen anyway).
The exact tariffs would depend on what CCP says is the final value (combined with the POCO owner), but using either set of ratios would make those final tariff values much more balanced across the tiers. At 70 ISK/u (the magical "10%" number?) a lo-sec PI harvest colony would probably produce between 250k and 500k ISK/day in tariff fees. Get a dozen PI colonies running on that planet and you're up into the realm of a lo-sec POCO almost being able to pay itself off in a month. |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 14:20:00 -
[322] - Quote
I think a lot of the COs that will be built will be highsec people who are currently already doing PI. When somebody destroys the Interbus CO, they will soon have a planet with millions worth of PI which they cannot access. This changes the picture considerably.
When calculating the pay-back period, people forget that you won't make the investment before you have an almost full storage. That takes two weeks off the pay-back period. |
Jade Nexia
CHON THE R0NIN
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 22:24:00 -
[323] - Quote
I have only one concern. Do we get all SP spend in planetary, back to pool? Because I spend a lot of time leveling my planetary skills to level 5 on 9 characters. I don't have any further plans to do PI anymore. You do plan change it from the bone, so give me back my SP spend in it.
BTW: POCOs is bad idea. PI need change by improving ****** interface. It is click-fest, dum UI with no brain. |
Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.19 23:20:00 -
[324] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:I think a lot of the COs that will be built will be highsec people who are currently already doing PI. When somebody destroys the Interbus CO, they will soon have a planet with millions worth of PI which they cannot access. This changes the picture considerably.
When calculating the pay-back period, people forget that you won't make the investment before you have an almost full storage. That takes two weeks off the pay-back period.
Um...The highsec Customs offices will remain Concord, indestructible and therefore accessible by all. Interbus and POCO will be low, null and Wormhole. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 00:17:00 -
[325] - Quote
OK, I have been waiting until I got caught up with this thread (now series of threads), but it's clear that's never happening.
CCP Omen, with all respect and sympathy, it's clear you don't know what you're doing. That's not criticism; it's a fact of life we sometimes find ourselves in when we take on challenging jobs. The key is to recognize the situation and respond accordingly.
Some of the ways you can do something about by paying close attention to these threads. I'll summarize some of those.
Some of them -- like the economic impact -- so much depend on player behavior that they're beyond prediction and analysis. It's NOT going to be enough to just say "we'll keep an eye on it and fix it". You stand a good chance of getting yourself into a whole chain of "fixes" that progressively make things worse.
You REALLY, REALLY want to avoid that.
Clearly, your expectations about how things will play out in Wormholes are not based on the realities of living in wormholes. Nobody, who has even the slightest clue, is going to set a WH CO to allow access by the public. You might find a few confused souls, but they won't last long, and they won't make money doing it, because they will have no *friendly* customers. (They might do it rather than set their co-habitants standings, but that'll just be clumsiness).
For me, the biggest single problem with this, is its orientation around corporations. You seem to think all corporations are like these massive swarms of goons, all doing the same things -- or single player corporations. There's a whole world out here of corporations of people who want to stay together -- yet do a lot of their own stuff, as well.
I've done a *lot* of losec planetary work -- deep in losec, in fact. Your proposals are so incredibly biased toward huge conglomerates, it is truely scary. You could, literally overnight, render all of losec as an uneconomic wasteland for players like myself.
You would completely eliminate solo ninja WH operators as well.
So here's my advice:
- You say you don't have time pressure. You are wrong. You do not have nearly enough time to sort out and discuss the issues and come up with a workable plan for the Winter Expansion. Put it off until Summer, to give yourself time to do it right. This will make the difference between success and a lingering, burning failure.
- Don't give up. There's potential here, but you're going to need to rework the ideas considerably.
- Do NOT allow POCOs to set themselves up to not allow others. That is too large a change, and unnecessary. And that, more than anything, is what hands economic power to the huge conglomerates, allowing them to access vast resources risk-free, while denying them to all the smaller operators.
- Do *NOT* tie the BPCs to LPs. These are too economically central, and this puts them out of reach to those, such as WH residents, who don't get LPs. In all the time I've played, I have yet to buy a single thing from the LP store, and have very few LPs, and chasing LPs is completely disconnected with anything I actually do.
- Fix the pricing model for POCOs, and simplify the process. If you want people to actually do this, you need to reduce the barriers. The ratio of potential grief to potential gain is WAY out of line.
- Make them launchable for either player or corporation. You should be ENCOURAGING individual initiative, not stifling it. In fact, NOTHING should be out of reach, for game mechanic reasons, of the individual player. I'd even like wallet and hanger divisions! You're going the wrong direction, empowering corporations -- especially large ones -- while disempowering the individual. Way to make the game boring...
- Introduce it slowly.I'd suggest starting in hisec -- let the higher tax rate drive people toward losec. Then hit nullsec, learn, WH's, learn, and finally, losec.
- Give people an out. Currently, the launch capability of command centers is not even remotely useful for serious production use. I use it occasionally when away to buy time,but you cannot manage a planet with serious production capability that way, and you cannot run a factory planet. So OK, maybe the downlink has to go through the CO, but make the uplink into a viable alternative.
- Do NOT give detailed information about my activities to the CO owner. Roll it up on a weekly basis or something. I'd rather not even give my identity. If he wants to try to hunt me down, don't hand my schedule to him on a platter. Make him actually work for it.. Don't turn it into a lazy pirate's alternative to a gate camp. "Where" is already a known; don't hand out "who what where" to go with it.
I would seriously look at investing (personally -- I'm not leaving my corp to do it!) in COs, were they adjusted to be a reasonable business proposition. Or let others invest, and continue to do PI, if you don't destroy my business model.
Presently, I foresee a scenario where COs get cleared out for the heck of it, but it's not worth anybody's investment to invest in them. Some get built for private use, by those large and powerful enough to defend them, who then end up controlling the entire economy.
In fact, according to the old stories, this is exactly the sort of thing that the Occupy movement was about back on Old Terra. Do we have to #OccupyJita to keep you from crashing our economy and throwing us out of work? |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
575
|
Posted - 2011.11.21 19:26:00 -
[326] - Quote
And then, from Iceland, came the thundering sound of silence. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
321
|
Posted - 2011.11.22 23:23:00 -
[327] - Quote
7 days till PI doomsday. :-(
Thanks tons CCP, can you break mining next?
Issler |
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries Pandorum Invictus
21
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 09:53:00 -
[328] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote: Thanks tons CCP, can you break mining next?
Drone Regions, my good sir. |
Mike Whiite
Progressive State
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 11:27:00 -
[329] - Quote
I see a opertunity for a new shipclass:
O.R.E. Planet Extractor
Role orbital planet resource extractor (deepspace version of an oil platfrom)
origanly build as a way to extract planet recources in unknown pace, but frequently used by smuglers to extract planet resourses without paying taxes.
maybe even in different versions bigger to smaller bays/abillity to extract against better hidability for instance.
This would make it possile for small corps to keep involved in PI, keeps it possible to ninja wormholes, and let wormholes/ and deeper low sec area's function without the need of a custom office.
After every downtime a PACO owner should get a massage/Warning a person is smuggling recourses from his planet.
Maybe even something as a loosing standing.
It also give's the PACO owners a reason to accept people on their planets.
1) more people on a planet makes the chance smaller you'll be picked to be stripped 2) People on your planet, earns you more then being stripped.
In the end we need a ship that is able to drop and take people / machinery on planets anyway, how will those Dust dudes get on the planet otherwise....Hmmm that leaves room for Racial dropships as well.
Oh and for the fear that this would prevent any PACO's from being purchased, a PACO is probably cheaper, it makes more money from stuff you didn't extract, it will not be as easy to destroy as a ship.
As for people that want to point out this game is about playing with/against other people. I think this will actualy bring people to interact more than shutting down planets as whole.
|
Zyrbalax III
Goldcrest Enterprises
34
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 12:42:00 -
[330] - Quote
Mike Whiite wrote: ...stuff...
After every downtime a PACO owner should get a massage
...stuff...
+1
This would make me much more inclined to invest in a POCO (or even a PACO) |
|
Mike Whiite
Progressive State
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.23 12:46:00 -
[331] - Quote
Zyrbalax III wrote:Mike Whiite wrote: ...stuff...
After every downtime a PACO owner should get a massage
...stuff...
+1 This would make me much more inclined to invest in a POCO (or even a PACO)
Archh how stupid of me: edited |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
391
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 13:23:00 -
[332] - Quote
Anyone know whether they've fixed the tariff rates between the tiers on Sisi yet? My numbers from Nov 18th were:
Quote:P0 - Everything was 0.50 ISK/u for import.
P1 - All 0.05 ISK/u for import except for:
Oxygen - 0.10 import Water - 0.10 import
P2 - all 9.00 ISK/u for import
P3 - all 600 ISK/u for import
P4 - all 50k ISK/u for import.
Tariffs on P1 are even lower on Sisi then they are on TQ (and they were already very low on TQ compared to P3/P4 tariffs).
Existing tariff import rates (as of Nov 18th) on Sisi and their approximate tax burden on the resulting product:
P0: 0.50 = 10-25% tax rate (vs 1.0-2.5% on TQ) P1: 0.05 = 0.0067-0.025% tax rate (vs 0.0507-0.19% on TQ) P2: 9.00 = 0.0818-0.20% tax rate (vs 0.0409-0.10% on TQ) P3: 600 = 0.667-1.82% tax rate (vs 0.333-0.909% on TQ) P4: 50k = 3.125-6.25% tax rate (vs 1.56-3.125% on TQ)
Double those amounts for export fees.
Reference: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=411040#post411040 |
nardaq
Orion Expeditions
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.24 15:11:00 -
[333] - Quote
Quote:And remember, if you are worried about the Customs Office Gantry Blueprint being expensive on the market, you can prepare by getting the required Loyalty Points in advance.
* You need 3000 LP with a factional warfare militia and 10,000,000.00 ISK * Or, you need 6000 LP with CONCORD and 20,000,000.00 ISK
erm.... with the current isk/LP raito of 500 its not realy much getting lowered dont u think?
just put the BPO on the market for the same price of course to make it for us WAY easier for all of us
and add a 2min self destruct timer on the NPC CO to saves us hitting 10M points and and a lot of time |
Certis
Wormhole Exploration Squad
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 00:27:00 -
[334] - Quote
Rommiee wrote:To quote from the latest blog GÇ£One thing that really stood out was your concern for the transition period when all customs offices will be removedGÇ¥
What about the other 80-odd pages of concerns ?
The GÇ£NewGÇ¥ CCP is supposed to be listening to the players concerns, if you are still bringing this crap in, then obviously you are not.
My thoughts entirely - way to go CCP - you gonna loose even more subscribers if you bring in this crap - including me! FFS stop moving the damn goal posts. |
Certis
Wormhole Exploration Squad
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 00:30:00 -
[335] - Quote
Ariane VoxDei wrote:Hard to be even remotely constructive about it after that blog/blurb.
Essentially ignored all concerns and really weak copout on prices, which you were also warned about. Spending LP is another (missed) opportunity cost. So the BPC alone will be 80M+ if from concord, and a much less insane 20M+ from FW shops, clearly those numbers dictate that price will be set by the FW shop - just like they set the price for faction battleships. Slap on another roughly 32M in P4 mats, for absolute minimum of 52M. Wont stay there though. Taxes will be yanked up in non-sov space, with the usual "why tax less than NPC when people have no other options" and taxes on NPC-PO are apparently still being doubled, since you seem to have wilfully ignored the lessons from the "11%" story that Eris was scapegoated for.
We dont need more "might makes right, so eat **** or die".
This will still practically kill lowsec PI, fruitlessly extratax hisec PI, effectively taxexempt nullsec PI and drive up PI prices a bit more as taxes and POCO losses (those not behind cynowalls) need to be amortized. As for WH PI, that is going to be a particularly nasty nerf, but I dont have numbers on their share of the PI market to guestimate how big a pricehike that will generate.
Couldn't agree with you more - once again way to go CCP - even more subscribers out the window - including me! FFS stop moving the damn goal posts and shooting yourself in the foot. |
Certis
Wormhole Exploration Squad
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 00:40:00 -
[336] - Quote
So PI is dead - now when do I get a refund of all my skill points and the ISK initially spent developing my low sec PI in the first place?
Scrap it, Pay up or loose this subscriber and a whole bunch more. |
XPhantasimX
Awesome Sauce Industries Team America World Police
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 01:27:00 -
[337] - Quote
Not that this has anything to do with the customs office, but i would really like to see some way of moving the extractor heads all at once if desired. its a real pain to reposition all the heads individually. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
391
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 03:23:00 -
[338] - Quote
PI tariffs have changed on Sisi today. Import tariffs are now (for hi-sec CONCORD stations with 10.0% setting):
P0 - 0.25 ISK/u P1 - 25.00 ISK/u (including Oxygen & Water), (100x P0 tariff) P2 - 450 ISK/u (18x P1 tariff) P3 - 3500 ISK/u (7.78x P2 tariff) P4 - 67500 ISK/u (19.28x P3 tariff)
For the most part, these make sense now (except for P2 which should have been 16x the P1 tariff since it always takes 16 P1 to make P2, and P4 is a bit more expensive compared to P3 then it should be).
You'll definitely want to go from P1->P3 where possible or P2->P4 where possible to avoid an import/export tariff on the intermediate stage of processing.
|
Salpun
Paramount Commerce
86
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 03:31:00 -
[339] - Quote
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
Customs Office Wiki is up |
uglybass
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 07:51:00 -
[340] - Quote
Atleast in low-sec interbus should rebuild their tax offices if the planet is unoccupied for longer than 24h. Better yet make them sent fleet to deploy tax offices.... :P
I think the tax is ridicilously high atm, with 100% tax you cant make any profit ? I can see how low-sec becomes wasteland in PI aspect
can you import/export stuff when office is in reinforced mode? if you can maybe send mail to those who have plants on that planet aswell so they can atleast try to salvage something... |
|
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
49
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 10:24:00 -
[341] - Quote
Thanks for listening to us CCP. Keep up the good work |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
164
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 10:32:00 -
[342] - Quote
Salpun wrote:http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
Customs Office Wiki is up Those numbers make a lot more sense.
Thanks! |
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
245
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 10:57:00 -
[343] - Quote
A somewhat more arcane request:
Could we please get some good story background on the Interbus customs offices? My alliance has been discussing whether we want to shoot down Interbus COs (they're neutral, why would we?), and even whether we consider others shooting Interbus COs as piracy (they're shooting corp property of a peaceful entity, so yes; CONCORD doesn't care at all, so no?)
It's a lovely discussion, but there's awfully little backstory on the issue, so it's not easy to actually discuss the ethical ramifications. *Some* background would be nice :-) |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
395
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 13:07:00 -
[344] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Salpun wrote:http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
Customs Office Wiki is up Those numbers make a lot more sense. Thanks!
Agreed, but I'm still not sure that, using those numbers, that you should be able to set the POCO tariff rates any higher then 20% (maybe 30% to drive potential player conflict).
Right now - as designed, POCOs are very risky from the standpoint of a PI colony owner. Someone can charge you very little, or they can jack your tariff rate up to 10x what it would be in hi-sec. That means you have almost zero ability to plan if you try to use a planet with a POCO owned by anyone other then a corp/alliance member. Third party POCO owners can too easily screw you over by playing around with the tariff slider (moving it from 10% up to 100%).
If the tariff slider was limited to 20% as a maximum value - then the worst case scenario (excluding complete denial) with a POCO becomes a more limited issue of "well, you might have to pay 2x the tariff rate as you would in hi-sec". Which would still be a "grr" moment, but it wouldn't completely put your goods out of the running as being economically viable. It would limit the potential damage for using a 3rd party POCO that isn't corp/alliance owned.
(Margins on existing PI tiers is traditionally between 8-20% for converting a lower tier PI into higher tier PI.) |
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
41
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 15:37:00 -
[345] - Quote
Seems like they've gone with the upper end of the values.
Quote:Taxation
*Tax % is taken off the material's taxable value. **This value is set by CCP and is based off the market values in November 2011 **Import is always half of export tax
*The taxable value are the same for all items in the same tier **Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK **Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK **Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK **Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK **Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK
Tested just now on Sisi. Imported and exported on a highsec CO (10% tariff rate). Import cost was at 5%, export was at 10%. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
167
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 15:53:00 -
[346] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Agreed, but I'm still not sure that, using those numbers, that you should be able to set the POCO tariff rates any higher then 20% (maybe 30% to drive potential player conflict). On the other hand, if you set a max of 30%, you can be sure 90% of the POCOs will be set at that rate. If you don't limit it, people will have to find their own balance in a more emergent way.
CCP can always restrict it later if it becomes a problem.
|
Jiska Ensa
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 16:04:00 -
[347] - Quote
Is is possible to considerably drop the HP of wh/low/null NPC customs offices? I run a modest operation in a wormhole and don't entirely look forward to spending 12 hours a day bashing all 10 or so offices we have in our system.
|
Dr Mercy
Doctrine. FEARLESS.
41
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 17:16:00 -
[348] - Quote
Jiska Ensa wrote:Is is possible to considerably drop the HP of wh/low/null NPC customs offices? I run a modest operation in a wormhole and don't entirely look forward to spending 12 hours a day bashing all 10 or so offices we have in our system.
Use dreads then. and the 17% tax really isn't that high for the lowends for extraction and POS fuels. Just replace the few you use for high ends, if you have any. |
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 17:53:00 -
[349] - Quote
Jiska Ensa wrote:Is is possible to considerably drop the HP of wh/low/null NPC customs offices? I run a modest operation in a wormhole and don't entirely look forward to spending 12 hours a day bashing all 10 or so offices we have in our system.
Are you just pretending to be thick, or are you a hereditary blond and so naturally dumb. FFS give your head a shake then go play preferably in another MMOG. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
331
|
Posted - 2011.11.25 22:32:00 -
[350] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Thanks for listening to us CCP. Keep up the good work
Uhm, still horking up low sec and WHs, not seeing so much listening as committing to a bad idea and ignoring.
Issler |
|
Zleon Leigh
30
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 00:47:00 -
[351] - Quote
So are the Interbus CO's going to be pinata's? Does all my PI that I won't be able to get to right after DT become party prizes for ******* CO griefers?
Fail CCP - bullshit fail.
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
332
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 01:54:00 -
[352] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:So are the Interbus CO's going to be pinata's? Does all my PI that I won't be able to get to right after DT become party prizes for ******* CO griefers?
Fail CCP - bullshit fail.
"sarcasm"
No!! This is awesome!! This will make PI and low sec awesome!!! And clearly CCP is not turning major aspects of the economy over to interns or fresh outs with no game development or Eve experience! These guys are geniuses and pros!! Oh, and ruining the PI supply chain couldn't be anything to worry about, CCP would have years to get back around to fixing this is its all wrong because they "will be watching it closely"!
"/sarcasm"
Yes, CCP has put someone in charge of PI that clearly has no concept of the mechanism and side effects of this craptastic "feature".
My theory is the person that came up with this has never done anything in the game industry that succeeded. But in the new CCP there seems to be a very low bar for success.
Issler
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
83
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 01:58:00 -
[353] - Quote
Interbus COs do not drop loot. They are not pinatas.
They're also intended to be temporary holdovers until people place POCOs, which have a reinforcement timer. You want to do PI in lowsec? Use the Interbus, get some friends and drop a POCO, or use someone else's POCO.
Player-driven economy. |
Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 07:47:00 -
[354] - Quote
Zyrbalax III wrote: Can we now build PI structures in someone else's sov nullsec?
This is a question I would want an answer to. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
10
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 08:23:00 -
[355] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Interbus COs do not drop loot. They are not pinatas.
They're also intended to be temporary holdovers until people place POCOs, which have a reinforcement timer. You want to do PI in lowsec? Use the Interbus, get some friends and drop a POCO, or use someone else's POCO.
Player-driven economy.
More like punching dummies, I'd say. It remains to be seen how long the life expectancy of a POCO will be.
I like the player-driven economy part of it. but if it isn't reasonably economical to place these, we could see a pronounced shift in economic power to the likes of the Goonwaffe, which would be good for you, but bad for the game, and thus ultimately bad for you as well.
A lot depends on what you guys end up doing in reality. I won't be blaming you guys if it all goes to Hek in a handbasket. You guys are part of the game, and whatever behavior emerges from this, emerges from this.
Eliminating the ability to restrict access, making BPCs more affordable/accessible, introducing it more gradually -- anything that makes it less likely that Goonswarm or any other large group (you guys just have the good name) actually ends up with an effective losec PI monopoly, would make this a lot less risky as a new feature.
Aside from the risk of totally mangling the economy and balance of power between large and small, the real thing that annoys me is not being able to launch these for myself, rather than for my corp. I should be able to do a little side venture, without dragging my corp into it. Then if it works out, I can pitch doing it with corp backing on a grander scale. If they get knocked down whack-a-mole style, then I eat the loss, with any earnings to console me.
I might still have a scout or two try putting up some of these in losec just to learn how they work out. Since I'm presently wormhole-based, I'll be dealing with that set of issues.
Any bets on how long until the last Interbus CO disappears from losec? I really have no idea, myself, but I'd love to see the data on that, the number of POCO's put up, killed, average life, average time a planet goes without a CO, etc. |
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 11:32:00 -
[356] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So are the Interbus CO's going to be pinata's? Does all my PI that I won't be able to get to right after DT become party prizes for ******* CO griefers?
Fail CCP - bullshit fail.
"sarcasm" No!! This is awesome!! This will make PI and low sec awesome!!! And clearly CCP is not turning major aspects of the economy over to interns or fresh outs with no game development or Eve experience! These guys are geniuses and pros!! Oh, and ruining the PI supply chain couldn't be anything to worry about, CCP would have years to get back around to fixing this is its all wrong because they "will be watching it closely"! "/sarcasm" Yes, CCP has put someone in charge of PI that clearly has no concept of the mechanism and side effects of this craptastic "feature". My theory is the person that came up with this has never done anything in the game industry that succeeded. But in the new CCP there seems to be a very low bar for success. Issler
It's still amazing in the current state of the world economy how CCP still risk pis**ng off their "paying" customer base with poorly concieved ideas, yet it still gets rolled out despite their known history of taking years to fix stuff that is still in the game which is broken all because the game model is greater than their capacity to understand it any more. It has totally gotten away from them.
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
170
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 11:34:00 -
[357] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:More like punching dummies, I'd say. It remains to be seen how long the life expectancy of a POCO will be. This is going to be a hard one to find out. Depending on whose POCO it is, who else lives in the area, their relationships, and how previous fights have gone, it can be anything from 24 hours to months and years. Towers usually last a long time, but they are both harder to attack, and more discreet. POCOs are visible on the overview from the entire system.
Quote:I like the player-driven economy part of it. but if it isn't reasonably economical to place these, we could see a pronounced shift in economic power to the likes of the Goonwaffe, which would be good for you, but bad for the game, and thus ultimately bad for you as well. Unlikely. Shooting them is boring enough that 0.0 alliances won't travel long distances to do it. If it takes an hour to get there, 5 minutes shooting, and another hour to get home, nobody is going to bother. Especially when 10 guys can quickly reinforce your POCO the next day and force you to do it all again.
Control will probably go to the dominant entities in each area. That's going to be strong pirate groups, FW groups, and the occasional strong highsec/antipirate group (when I say group, I mean either single corp, alliance, or coalition). But the low defenses mean you need to live near your POCOs to make sure you can defend them, especially if they get attacked often.
Quote:the real thing that annoys me is not being able to launch these for myself, rather than for my corp. I should be able to do a little side venture, without dragging my corp into it. It takes less than a day to train a new char to anchor POCOs, including corp management and hauler skills. Go for it
Quote:Any bets on how long until the last Interbus CO disappears from losec? I really have no idea, myself, but I'd love to see the data on that, the number of POCO's put up, killed, average life, average time a planet goes without a CO, etc. People anchoring POCOs in their home area have a strong incentive to either cover all planets, or make sure they don't have NPC COs on them. So those will die over the next month or two. In isolated areas with no activity, they'll probably last a year or more. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
171
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 13:53:00 -
[358] - Quote
Interbus COs on Sisi give killmails, but the damage on them is 0.
I'm not sure what's the point of those mails. NPCs have never given killmails before. Is this intended? I suspect any kb will give them a zero value anyway, but it's a bit silly to have them. |
|
CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
46
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 14:37:00 -
[359] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Interbus COs on Sisi give killmails, but the damage on them is 0.
I'm not sure what's the point of those mails. NPCs have never given killmails before. Is this intended? I suspect any kb will give them a zero value anyway, but it's a bit silly to have them.
Yep that's a known bug, it probably won't make the cut for the initial crucible rollout but should be fixed shortly after. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
171
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 15:00:00 -
[360] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Interbus COs on Sisi give killmails, but the damage on them is 0.
I'm not sure what's the point of those mails. NPCs have never given killmails before. Is this intended? I suspect any kb will give them a zero value anyway, but it's a bit silly to have them. Yep that's a known bug, it probably won't make the cut for the initial crucible rollout but should be fixed shortly after. Thanks for the reply.
It'll be a shame if you don't get the fix in before release. Many, many of those "invalid" mails will be generated over the first few days. Once the bug gets fixed, they will become an anomaly on killboards. I wouldn't put it past some of us to make sure we get one as a "collector's killmail" |
|
|
CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
48
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 15:09:00 -
[361] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote:A somewhat more arcane request:
Could we please get some good story background on the Interbus customs offices? My alliance has been discussing whether we want to shoot down Interbus COs (they're neutral, why would we?), and even whether we consider others shooting Interbus COs as piracy (they're shooting corp property of a peaceful entity, so yes; CONCORD doesn't care at all, so no?)
It's a lovely discussion, but there's awfully little backstory on the issue, so it's not easy to actually discuss the ethical ramifications. *Some* background would be nice :-)
I've read a draft from an upcoming chronicle about this, it is awesome.
From a game mechanics point of view, you wont take a security status hit for shooting the Interbus ones. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer (and occasional programmer) |
|
Zleon Leigh
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 15:46:00 -
[362] - Quote
Could still approach the epic stupidity of WiS, but they still have a shot to eclipse!
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
21
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 16:50:00 -
[363] - Quote
Is the same person who was responsible for all the fail fits in the CCP "fleet of DOOM" doing PI now? |
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 19:19:00 -
[364] - Quote
Said it in another thread, but maybe CCP reads this one.
Low-sec is about piracy. Null-sec is about fight for resources/territories.
Pirates/grievers in low-sec mostly won't be bothered with building and using POCOs. Yes, pirates would get more targets to shoot, but pirating can't exist without juicy targets. And non-PvP people are already at disadvantage there due to danger from pirates and absence of null-sec class protection and resource concentration. Such players would lose more interest in low-sec, pirates would lose targets, low-sec would lose its meaning. So POCOs won't improve gameplay of low-secs.
And as concentration or resources is higher in null-sec, building POCOs in low-sec won't be as lucrative as in null-sec. So POCO builders would probably leave low-sec for null-sec.
Destroying structures/claiming resources - that's null-sec. So introducing POCOs to null-sec is probably fine, but introducing them to low-sec means replacing low-sec gameplay at least partially with null-sec's.
It is often helpful for solution analysis to consider boundary conditions. If you starting to replace NPC structures with player-owned ones in low-sec - just imagine going further, replacing NPC stations with player stations. What's that going to be? Just another null-sec. Where is low-sec idea there? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
171
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 19:57:00 -
[365] - Quote
Exer Toralen wrote:Said it in another thread, but maybe CCP reads this one.
Low-sec is about piracy. Null-sec is about fight for resources/territories. Counterpoints: moon-mining in lowsec, and 0.0 roams hunting ratters. The first is about resources, the second as close to piracy as it gets.
Quote:Pirates/grievers in low-sec mostly won't be bothered with building and using POCOs. Yes, pirates would get more targets to shoot, but pirating can't exist without juicy targets. And non-PvP people are already at disadvantage there due to danger from pirates and absence of null-sec class protection and resource concentration. Such players would lose more interest in low-sec, pirates would lose targets, low-sec would lose its meaning. So POCOs won't improve gameplay of low-secs. You talk like you know a lot about lowsec. Did you get all that knowledge when your mining osprey got blown up?
PI haulers are not targets for pirates. Most of them are cloaky, so uncatchable, and the others are boring to shoot at. People who defend their POCOs are far more interesting to the lowsec ecosystem.
|
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 21:48:00 -
[366] - Quote
The point is: Every single game patch has to be improvement. But how destroyable COs and POCOs would improve low-sec play-style?
Consider only gameplay aspect. Increased taxes in hi-sec would stimulate people to move PI from hi- to low- and null-sec. Introducing another grab&hold element would add another objects to care about in null-sec. But what would it improve in low-sec?
Most people here complain about low-sec effects of destroyable COs, few actually think it would affect hi- and null-sec citizens much.
Introducing null-sec gameplay elements to low-sec is hardly an improvement. People willing to fight over stations able to leave for null-sec at any time. Forcing people to such fights in low-sec means limiting them.
To improve low-sec, you have to improve piracy as source of income (do not care about grievers). For that you have to make low-sec more lucrative to increase traffic. Or split core hi-sec into pieces putting low-sec systems between them, not just at the edge. POCOs would make low-sec actually less profitable place negatively affecting piracy as whole reason behind low-sec.
Unless CCP could explain POCOs as improvement for low-sec, they should reconsider introducing them outside of null-sec/wormhole space. |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
333
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 22:18:00 -
[367] - Quote
This is with out a doubt yet another thing to drive the last of the non-pirates out of low sec.
It is a HORRIBLE idea.
Watch it all you want CCP but you are days away from permanently driving yet another group out of low sec.
Issler |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
171
|
Posted - 2011.11.26 22:25:00 -
[368] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:This is with out a doubt yet another thing to drive the last of the non-pirates out of low sec.
It is a HORRIBLE idea.
Watch it all you want CCP but you are days away from permanently driving yet another group out of low sec.
Issler Why? No, really, what group is going to be driven out of lowsec and why? |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
333
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 02:23:00 -
[369] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:This is with out a doubt yet another thing to drive the last of the non-pirates out of low sec.
It is a HORRIBLE idea.
Watch it all you want CCP but you are days away from permanently driving yet another group out of low sec.
Issler Why? No, really, what group is going to be driven out of lowsec and why?
Independent players, small industrial corps and basically anyone that can't defend or replace COs in low sec when the COs become the new nothing else to 'splode targets for the local roaming pirates. Just today I watched a super cap drop in a mostly empty low sec system just to mess with a few locals because there wasn't anything else handy to shoot. If there were player owned CO's there they would been targeted for sure.
Low sec will be a PI ghost town.
Issler
|
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 02:54:00 -
[370] - Quote
Don't mind Jack. He seems to be trolling. |
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 04:54:00 -
[371] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:[From a game mechanics point of view, you wont take a security status hit for shooting the Interbus ones.
But you do get that warning about attacking a hostile entity. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
87
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 06:23:00 -
[372] - Quote
Exer Toralen wrote:POCOs would make low-sec actually less profitable place negatively affecting piracy as whole reason behind low-sec.
Issler Dainze wrote:This is with out a doubt yet another thing to drive the last of the non-pirates out of low sec.
Hey if you lowsec people all get your act together and agree whether will HELP or HURT piracy maybe people would take your posts more seriously. Right now you're arguing at opposite angles, I guess POCOs might be balanced, eh?
Lowsec is a ghost town and you guys are fearing ANY change. Because it will hurt piracy! Because it make it so only pirates live there! AAAAAA maybe you all should just hold your turf and hang around and enjoy the new feature.
I assure you, big nullsec alliances like mine do not care about lowsec at all. Maybe we come take a tech moon now and then, it's a far different scale and POCOs won't make us think any differently about lowsec. |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
22
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 08:16:00 -
[373] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Exer Toralen wrote:POCOs would make low-sec actually less profitable place negatively affecting piracy as whole reason behind low-sec.
Issler Dainze wrote:This is with out a doubt yet another thing to drive the last of the non-pirates out of low sec.
Hey if you lowsec people all get your act together and agree whether will HELP or HURT piracy maybe people would take your posts more seriously. Right now you're arguing at opposite angles, I guess POCOs might be balanced, eh? Lowsec is a ghost town and you guys are fearing ANY change. Because it will hurt piracy! Because it make it so only pirates live there! AAAAAA maybe you all should just hold your turf and hang around and enjoy the new feature. I assure you, big nullsec alliances like mine do not care about lowsec at all. Maybe we come take a tech moon now and then, it's a far different scale and POCOs won't make us think any differently about lowsec.
What are you smoking? Can I have some?
What makes you think any educated EvE player is going to take anything someone in your alliance says seriously? The validity of your opinions was forfeit the day you joined.
Nobody cares what you say you will or will not do, especially since you're all just a bunch of scammers. You can't even keep your drop fleet ninja looters under control.
To assist you with your comprehension skills, both of those quotes supported that it's a detriment to piracy.
My arse sometimes ninja loots my belly, but at least I can check my logs. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
171
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 11:21:00 -
[374] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:Independent players, small industrial corps and basically anyone that can't defend or replace COs in low sec when the COs become the new nothing else to 'splode targets for the local roaming pirates. Just today I watched a super cap drop in a mostly empty low sec system just to mess with a few locals because there wasn't anything else handy to shoot. If there were player owned CO's there they would been targeted for sure. They don't need to.
The whole point of the tax idea is this: the people who live in a system and have control over it get to tax the "tourists". So those independents and small corps will have to pay taxes to the local PVP corps. Those PVP corps will have zero interest in doing PI themselves, so their POCOs will be mostly open. POCOs are cheap and don't need any maintenance, so I don't see why people wouldn't put them up.
The one thing that might discourage them from putting them is the pure pain that is repping them after chasing off the attackers. That's one aspect of structure fights CCP really needs to look into, as it takes much longer to repair than to destroy.
Exer Toralen wrote:Don't mind Jack. He seems to be trolling. I may not be the world's expert in lowsec, but I've spent two years in there, as a -10 (and I'm on my way back down). I have made money in lowsec, both doing exploration and industry, running 4 towers for mining and reactions in my home system. I've been on the receiving end of several supercap hotdrops.
Your entire lowsec experience consists of the aforementioned mining osprey. So who is trolling? |
Archit3ct
Eve Global Invest Group
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 11:34:00 -
[375] - Quote
Bye bye lowsec, wormhole(s) here I come |
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 13:02:00 -
[376] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:I've been on the receiving end of several supercap hotdrops.
And that makes my point invalid... how?
If you could justify POCOs as low-sec attractiveness improvement - lay down your arguments. Braggery is irrelevant. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
171
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 13:07:00 -
[377] - Quote
Exer Toralen wrote:If you could justify POCOs as low-sec attractiveness improvement - lay down your arguments. Braggery is irrelevant. If you can control/secure a lowsec system, now you can profit from it. Simple as that. |
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 15:01:00 -
[378] - Quote
Quote:If you can control/secure a lowsec system, now you can profit from it. Simple as that.
Ok. That's still replacement of low-sec gameplay with null-sec one, but let's discuss it.
You do not get profit from POCOs just by controlling system. You get it from other people visiting your POCOs. And they do that because a) it is profitable for them to use your POCOs or b) they do not have other choice.
Right now people in low-sec engage in PI activity because they just can. It is easy to spend 15 minutes a day to get some profit on the side if you use planets in your home system or 1-2 jumps away tops. And it costs like nothing in NPC CO taxes. With destroyable COs you get: 1) more jumps to do as not all planets are going to have POCOs 2) higher taxes As a result, low-sec PI is going to become less interesting than it is now.
About not having choice. As I see it, people engage in PI because of: 1) direct profit from selling goods 2) indirect profit from fueling their own POSes with self-made cheap and close fuel 3) T2/T3 manufacturing of theirs requiring PI goods
POCOs are going to make PI less profitable and some PIers would either switch to other activities or leave low-sec. People owning (and protecting) POSes should be able to own and protect their own POCOs, though it is going to be more annoying for them. T2/T3 manufacturers are either able to substitute self-made PI goods with market-obtainable or already use null-sec as base because of higher resource concentration there. Do not see steady flow of POCO customers here either.
Not saying POCOs are going to destroy low-sec PI completely. Can't predict how people would adapt. But such change would decrease low-sec PI attractiveness compared to current one. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
172
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 16:13:00 -
[379] - Quote
Exer Toralen wrote:Ok. That's still replacement of low-sec gameplay with null-sec one, but let's discuss it. I still don't know what you think lowsec gameplay should be. Especially as you seem to distinguish between "pirates" and "griefers".
About the rest of your post, I have no doubt some people will cry about CCP moving their cheese and go sulking back to highsec. POCO owners will have to find the balance between getting isk, driving away customers, and getting people interested in attacking their offices. Producers will adapt, prices will go up, profits will go up despite taxes. They always do.
In the meantime, lowsec will get more fights away from gates and stations, which can only be good.
Quote:P.S. Doubt that POCOs are going to be profitable in null-sec. People won't be able to make more money on their blues than they already do, non-blues would be denied access to POCOs anyway This will be an issue for 0.0, but then it'll just make lowsec PI even more valuable.
Quote:and whole POCO-thing would be most likely just another cash-sink for rich corps there. But at least that would be extension for gameplay already in place (grab&hold playstyle) and economy might require cash-sink. The isk-sink from POCOs is minuscule (10 million each from the LP store). |
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 17:26:00 -
[380] - Quote
You have different playgrounds: high-, low- and null-sec. People start in high-sec so have to be inclined to leave for other zones. Incentives for that are profit and different gameplay. Zones with higher profit must be more difficult. Else everyone would leave high-sec for null-sec. So we do have:
High-sec: base profit, relative safety. Low-sec: higher profit, no CONCORD. Null-sec: highest profit, no CONCORD, not every system has stations you can use, people have to protect their assets, higher organization level required to survive.
Low-sec = no law = free PvP. Free PvP is: a) "fair" fights just to prove you are better than the other guy (duels) b) ability to kill everything inferior to you on sight just because you can (not always, but usually just griefing) c) ability to shoot juicy targets to rob them and earn money (piracy)
Duels are minority and do not define low-sec. Griefers do not need anything other than some way to blow things and would function anywhere. That's why I'm naming piracy the only low-sec proprietary gameplay. Null-sec is more about military operations, "grab & hold" gameplay, while low-sec is "hit & run".
Here we come to two things:
1. To run successful extortion business you must have someone to extort. Extorting another extorter just won't work - there is no source of income. So piracy won't function by itself, it needs isk-generating players in low-sec. The more you drive them away from low-sec - the less interesting the defining low-sec's gameplay would be, the less populated low-sec is going to become.
2. Different playgrounds with different gameplays should have about same level of profit per month. That way willing people would simply leave starting hi-sec for playgrounds with most appealing gameplay.
Yes, there is inequity in null-sec where some have tech moons and other only have Call To Arms to defend those moons. But general level of income in null-sec is higher than in low-sec. That's why we have low-populated low-sec same time as having massive lag-causing battles in null-sec. Make low-sec as lucrative as null-sec and people would spread evenly, some leaving organized null-sec warfare for organized low-sec crime. But make low-sec less attractive and we get (at boundary condition) empty systems with only transports passing by on their way between null-sec and hi-sec.
So every change to low-sec has to improve financial attractiveness of this zone unless you are going to abandon it. And POCOs would just make low-sec's gameplay look more like null-sec's and decrease low-sec PI's attractiveness, both leading to degradation of low-sec as unique playground. |
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 17:58:00 -
[381] - Quote
Exer Toralen wrote: High-sec: base profit, relative safety. Low-sec: higher profit, no CONCORD. Null-sec: highest profit, no CONCORD, not every system has stations you can use, people have to protect their assets, higher organization level required to survive.
...
So every change to low-sec has to improve financial attractiveness of this zone unless you are going to abandon it. And POCOs would just make low-sec's gameplay look more like null-sec's and decrease low-sec PI's attractiveness, both leading to degradation of low-sec as unique playground.
"hey, nullsec is highest profit"
then
"hey, lowsec needs to be more profitable to be popular, and POCOs make lowsec look more like nullsec, and are therefore bad for lowsec"
seriously, your arguments are terrible. Jack Dant seems to be the only lowsec guy that "gets it". POCOs will be profit opportunities for local pirates and breathe some life back into piracy gameplay and turf fights for lowsec industrial-minded groups.
re-read Jack's posts for good lowsec posts. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
172
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 18:10:00 -
[382] - Quote
Exer Toralen wrote:Low-sec = no law = free PvP. Free PvP is: a) "fair" fights just to prove you are better than the other guy (duels) b) ability to kill everything inferior to you on sight just because you can (not always, but usually just griefing) c) ability to shoot juicy targets to rob them and earn money (piracy) The thing is, you never know which one you are engaging in. What seems like a fair fight might just be a guy in his first battleship he can't fit. The lone noobship might be someone's alt with a capital ship skillbook in cargo. Or the expensive ship you are about to gank is actually pimped to the top and sends your gang home in pods.
Actually, the thing that defines lowsec, mechanics-wise, is accesibility. It's trivial to get in and out of lowsec in the right ship. A corp can claim to control a system or a station, but has no way to actually stop other players from coming and going. Even gate/station camps are easy to avoid. Now, that is why people were doing PI in lowsec and not (so much) in NPC 0.0. Even a cloaky hauler is easy to catch in null, but barring keyboard accidents, it's 100% safe in lowsec.
For that reason, in the previous thread, I advocated against letting people close down lowsec POCOs. You can easily make some RP reason to explain it, and it fits the lowsec spirit better. But I'm not even sure people will restrict them anyway. |
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 18:26:00 -
[383] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Actually, the thing that defines lowsec, mechanics-wise, is accesibility.
And destroyable COs would make it less accessable in terms of PI because absence of CO limits launch choices and not every planet is going to have CO. That's even if every POCO is going to be accessable by everyone.
Sure, that's not decisive degradation, but each one pushes low-sec further into being profitless and lifeless. |
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 18:35:00 -
[384] - Quote
I have counteroffer for CCP. Don't make COs destroyable. Let people build some destroyable installation per system to increase PI profit (resource concentration/powergrid/CPU/provides remote CO and launch management/something else). Autoincrease CO taxes in such systems by some factor (have to be balanced with utility installation provides to be attractive for PIers). Give share of those taxes to owner of such installation.
That would improve profit for PIers and provide profit for installation owner without degrading existing gameplay. As if there is no such installation - numbers simply revert to current state. |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.11.27 20:23:00 -
[385] - Quote
So according to the taxes mentioned here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice and on sisi, import taxes are 5% of that, export is 10% and command center export is 15%. Or 1*10% of those values for export, 0.5*10% for import and 1.5*10% for command center export. Why am I saying it that way? So it matches the info on the launchpads and command centers. Part of that has been fixed, but not so for the command centers, see here: http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4296/20111127040322.jpg See where it says import and export on the launch pad. I suspect those numbers are truncated and should really say 0.5 ISK and 1.0 ISk. The command center still says 3 ISK on export when it should really say 1.5 ISK so it matches what is really going on. PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them! |
Zeronic
Zero Core Labs United Abominations
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 01:50:00 -
[386] - Quote
I'm so disappoint by CCP wit this one. So if say something like what happen the last time the Dev release something the community didn't like happen will it be removed?
I call for an All Hand on Deck to sign the death of this feature. This is getting pushed in to the winter expansion. Either do it right or not at all.
/signed Removal of Feature. |
Gorilla Moose
ProtoStar Trading
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 02:59:00 -
[387] - Quote
Signed for Removal |
gargars
Cohesion Inc Beyond-Repair
19
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 04:14:00 -
[388] - Quote
Zeronic wrote:I'm so disappoint by CCP with this one. So if say something like what happen the last time the Dev srelease something the community didn't like, will it be removed?
I call for an All Hand on Deck to sign the death of this feature. This is getting pushed in to the winter expansion. Either do it right or not at all.
/signed Removal of Feature.
/ signed for Removal - nothing I like about it... and am concerned this is the return of the steam-roller approach they have apologized for in the recent past if people don't like their 'fantastic new thing'. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 04:31:00 -
[389] - Quote
You guys are signing to remove a feature which you haven't even bothered to test. A feature that makes the game more player-driven, in a game that is marketed as the ultimate sandbox with player-driven emergent content.
Where is your sense of adventure? Give it a try~ |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
22
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 04:38:00 -
[390] - Quote
/signed for removal. |
|
Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 05:23:00 -
[391] - Quote
Thanks for listening to feedback and making these things worth using. |
Captain Dunzel
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 05:28:00 -
[392] - Quote
Only the Goon's and their like minded minions think this is a good idea, what does that tell you?
/ Signed for Removal |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
91
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 05:57:00 -
[393] - Quote
Captain Dunzel wrote:Only the Goon's and their like minded minions think this is a good idea, what does that tell you?
/ Signed for Removal
I am just laughing with some friends and enjoying watching you and your alts post about a feature you haven't tested and aren't even saying why you don't like it (this feature you haven't used).
Pro trollin' my friend pro trollin'. |
Diametrix
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 06:03:00 -
[394] - Quote
pmchem wrote:You guys are signing to remove a feature which you haven't even bothered to test. A feature that makes the game more player-driven, in a game that is marketed as the ultimate sandbox with player-driven emergent content.
Where is your sense of adventure? Give it a try~
Its people that post like PMCHEM that give me the slightest sense of hope for this game (and often this genre). Thank you for talking sense and demonstrating a very well thought out and analyzed position on this feature.
I concur with your perspective that POCO is a critical first (or early) big step in the DUST/EVE linkage. CCP needs to show this very alert and questioning playerbase that they've got a serious vision for this game.
People, the deadline CCP is focused on is not the 29th of November. It's the 20th of December. If CCP botches this rollout it could be a rough next year or longer. You've got to evolve and grow to stay alive in any business, especially this one.
I seriously hope they not only make the right decisions about how this new mechanic will work but also how to communicate their recently publicized 'new and improved approach' to EVE ONLINE. |
El 1974
Bendebeukers Green Rhino
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 07:39:00 -
[395] - Quote
Diametrix wrote:pmchem wrote:You guys are signing to remove a feature which you haven't even bothered to test. A feature that makes the game more player-driven, in a game that is marketed as the ultimate sandbox with player-driven emergent content.[quote=Diametrix][quote=pmchem]You guys are signing to remove a feature which you haven't even bothered to test. A feature that makes the game more player-driven, in a game that is marketed as the ultimate sandbox with player-driven emergent content.
Where is your sense of adventure? Give it a try~ Its people that post like PMCHEM that give me the slightest sense of hope for this game (and often this genre). Thank you for talking sense and demonstrating a very well thought out and analyzed position on this feature. I concur with your perspective that POCO is a critical first (or early) big step in the DUST/EVE linkage. CCP needs to show this very alert and questioning playerbase that they've got a serious vision for this game. People, the deadline CCP is focused on is not the 29th of November. It's the 20th of December. If CCP botches this rollout it could be a rough next year or longer. You've got to evolve and grow to stay alive in any business, especially this one. I seriously hope they not only make the right decisions about how this new mechanic will work but also how to communicate their recently publicized 'new and improved approach' to EVE ONLINE.
You are asuming COs will somehow link Dust and Eve, while CCP has stated there will be no direct link in the earliest release of Dust (summer 2012). CCP is (again) communicating poorly with its customers. First we hear nothing from them for months and they seem to be all focussed on Dust and WoD and now there's hardly any news about Dust while we get overwhelmed with news and features for Eve. We are left in the dark about how Dust will affect Eve once they further integrate both games.
I don't think POCOs are a bad idea as such (at least not in 0.0), but I'm not convinced it will suit lowsec in its current form. Rushing this feature into the live game is bad, while they could choose for a much more gradual approach (test it in 0.0). Anyway, too late to do anything about it now. We will see in a few days how it works out. |
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 09:09:00 -
[396] - Quote
/signed for removal |
Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 09:46:00 -
[397] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:I don't think POCOs are a bad idea as such (at least not in 0.0), but I'm not convinced it will suit lowsec in its current form. Rushing this feature into the live game is bad, while they could choose for a much more gradual approach (test it in 0.0). Anyway, too late to do anything about it now. We will see in a few days how it works out.
They could simply change it so players couldn't claim low sec away from Interbus, but what would that do? They've already made it clear that taxable PI is a direction that they want to go, so the only thing removing POCOs from low sec achieves is limits the options of players to control their system and monetize it.
These things have entirely predictable reinforcement timers, so I don't think you'll see them blown up as often as you suspect. Nothing brings the wolves out to feed like a pending reinforcement timer. |
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 10:41:00 -
[398] - Quote
1. PI resources in low-sec replenish too slow for any planet with average concentration to be used effectively by more than 1-2 persons. And only limited resource types have high concentration in low-sec.
2. For effective PI you have to use at least 4 planets per person.
3. Current low-sec population is low.
That's simple strategy. If you have few defenders and a lot of things to defend, you are going to fail no matter how active attackers are going to be. Key to victory is concentration. And while attackers would surely be able to concentrate their forces, defenders are going to be spread too thin. |
Ned Black
Driders
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 11:41:00 -
[399] - Quote
pmchem wrote:You guys are signing to remove a feature which you haven't even bothered to test. A feature that makes the game more player-driven, in a game that is marketed as the ultimate sandbox with player-driven emergent content.
Where is your sense of adventure? Give it a try~
You dont really have to be a genious to recognize what a terribad idea this is from start to finish... no testing required.
Guess who will be sprouting the POCOs in lowsec? My guess would be the major 0.0 alliances. Unlike lowsec dwellers they have the manpower to enforce it. Suddenly they will have more or less total control of PI as well. Guess who will get the 100% tax?
The only places PI will be viable is in deep 0.0 where you have nothing but blue for 20 jumps and MAYBE in WH space... but dont worry, WH space POCOs will probably be nerfed because of the 0.0 alliance leaders tears about how unfair it is for WH dwellers to have something that the 0.0 alliance leaders have no control over.
This change will become a bloody nightmare if you ask me. You think PI prices are high today? Well, you have seen nothing yet. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
582
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 13:22:00 -
[400] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Captain Dunzel wrote:Only the Goon's and their like minded minions think this is a good idea, what does that tell you?
/ Signed for Removal I am just laughing with some friends and enjoying watching you and your alts post about a feature you haven't tested and aren't even saying why you don't like it (this feature you haven't used). Pro trollin' my friend pro trollin'.
Don't be daft. This can't be tested. It's impossible. Sisi isn't anything like Traq as far as how players behave or interact. This feature CANNOT be tested as though it were in the actual game. As such, one can only predict behaviors. Since Eve promotes often the worst behaviors among people, that bodes poorly. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
|
Zleon Leigh
31
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 15:01:00 -
[401] - Quote
/signed Removal of Feature Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Altolinchen
Sternenschauer AG Smacked Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 16:01:00 -
[402] - Quote
Will the Interbus POCO's have a reinforcement timer or can they been blow up straight away? So the planet is free for my own? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
173
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 16:02:00 -
[403] - Quote
Altolinchen wrote:Will the Interbus POCO's have a reinforcement timer or can they been blow up straight away? So the planet is free for my own? No reinforcement. But the Interbus offices take longer to kill than player ones (14.5 mil hp, vs 7.5 + 4.5). |
LB Wrench
Ordo Eventus Inception Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 16:16:00 -
[404] - Quote
I can only assume that CCP in theyre infinitive wisdom never thought about Corporations with perhaps as many as 50 members doing PI... on each 6 planets (example).
This means now, that after rights been assigned - you have 50 people that can unanchor ure POS (same rights). Or.. did CCP assume that the directors/CEO/Trusted personal with the anchoring rights, wont mind running around on 50 * 6 planets and set up PI Offices, that will without doubt be instaganked in Low Sec/No-Sov Null sec?
BRILLIANT... *sarcasm*.
And double link capacity ? - really... uhm.. thats not really interesting, unless youre in Null/WH's/Low low sec, as High sec, and High LS cant generate enuff to even warrent a single link upgrade.. ok - i grant there are those that can squeese out more, and thus need the link - but over all - truly a poorly trade.
Seems to me like the "new proffession: PI Typhoon comes to a staggering halt.
Oh well - i assume CSM Null ppl and CCP's null friends are happy with the change, so what does our opinion matter anyway. Time to take down the PI and POSes. Hey, look at the bright side.. now there are less PI in the game, and prices will raise.. oh wait.. that means less planets for Dust514 to invade... - as i said.. brilliant.. truly brilliant.. someone wasnt thinking this through me thinks..
- LB |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
173
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 16:22:00 -
[405] - Quote
LB Wrench wrote:I can only assume that CCP in theyre infinitive wisdom never thought about Corporations with perhaps as many as 50 members doing PI... on each 6 planets (example).
This means now, that after rights been assigned - you have 50 people that can unanchor ure POS (same rights). You are wrong. "Config equipment" vs "Config starbase equipment". That's the role for anchoring secure cans and bubbles, I believe. |
lachrymus
Czerka. The Methodical Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 16:50:00 -
[406] - Quote
LB Wrench wrote:I can only assume that CCP in theyre infinitive wisdom never thought about Corporations with perhaps as many as 50 members doing PI... on each 6 planets (example).
This means now, that after rights been assigned - you have 50 people that can unanchor ure POS (same rights). Or.. did CCP assume that the directors/CEO/Trusted personal with the anchoring rights, wont mind running around on 50 * 6 planets and set up PI Offices, that will without doubt be instaganked in Low Sec/No-Sov Null sec?
BRILLIANT... *sarcasm*.
And double link capacity ? - really... uhm.. thats not really interesting, unless youre in Null/WH's/Low low sec, as High sec, and High LS cant generate enuff to even warrent a single link upgrade.. ok - i grant there are those that can squeese out more, and thus need the link - but over all - truly a poorly trade.
Seems to me like the "new proffession: PI Typhoon comes to a staggering halt.
Oh well - i assume CSM Null ppl and CCP's null friends are happy with the change, so what does our opinion matter anyway. Time to take down the PI and POSes. Hey, look at the bright side.. now there are less PI in the game, and prices will raise.. oh wait.. that means less planets for Dust514 to invade... - as i said.. brilliant.. truly brilliant.. someone wasnt thinking this through me thinks..
- LB
If you can't max out a basic link in highsec, you're doing it wrong. And the link buff gives 3x more stuff which makes a huge difference, especially on big (eg gas) planets.
|
Altolinchen
Sternenschauer AG Smacked Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 16:54:00 -
[407] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Altolinchen wrote:Will the Interbus POCO's have a reinforcement timer or can they been blow up straight away? So the planet is free for my own? No reinforcement. But the Interbus offices take longer to kill than player ones (14.5 mil hp, vs 7.5 + 4.5). Well take a good armed fleet ~ 20 to 30 people to clear up a region would be easy. Take 5-10 supers in that fleet and most low-sec would be yours nobody would attack you during your op.. with nobody I mean the 0815 low pirates... not the pirates living in Minmatar low, who are connect to PL or the Amamake low, where PL lives right now... ... The other "dead" low sec in gallente/caldari/minmatar/amarr space could be play ground for low sec tycoons..
I like this changes because of many reasons. -It ******* brings people together no more soloing in a multi player game -It will lead to a different market situation -People who will risk something will get more benefits out of it so no more easy solo cloaky hauler ISK from low -Another way to get ISK
But I still got a few questions: -What will happed to POCO, which Corp. just disband itself ? -What will drop if you kill a POCO? |
Sluht Hunter
ProtoStar Trading
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 19:32:00 -
[408] - Quote
ok this idea sux.. If we have to have the poco then why seed the bpc so that only the incursion runners or faction ppl can access them... and the price is way over the top for a bpc.. 20 mil isk for a bpc + mats every time a griefer comes along and kills your co..
at least give us bpo's
I also agree this is going to make pi almost impossible except for the largest of the power alliances.. they will control every aspect of pi.. that ranges from fuels to t2ship construction.
Remove this or you will ruin the game..
/singed for removal |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.28 20:10:00 -
[409] - Quote
pmchem wrote:You guys are signing to remove a feature which you haven't even bothered to test. A feature that makes the game more player-driven, in a game that is marketed as the ultimate sandbox with player-driven emergent content.
Where is your sense of adventure? Give it a try~
I've given it as much try as is possible at this point, and certainly I'm going to be involved in a lot of aspects of it going forward.
I've removed an Interbus CO from SiSi. solo, just go get a sense of what's involved.
There's an opportunity for you guys (or similar groups) to grab a whole lot of economic control, if you so choose. But it's enough work, that I don't know if anyone will trouble themselves on that scale. I think it would be easy to make that situation a lot more balanced. I think it would be even easier, if they either delayed the plan for further discussion and refinement, or phased it in, leaving losec for last.
Anyone who is certain this will turn out a certain way, is deluding themselves. That includes CCP Omen, I fear -- but it also includes the doomsayers.
I think this could be done a lot better. I think the relationship to corps needs to be thought out a lot more. I think it should have been fully available on SiSi before launch so it could be TESTED by players. I hate the tie to faction LP. I think the risk of disruption of the game for a lot of players is significant, and we risk losing people every time that happens.
But that doesn't mean I think it's a bad idea, or that there's not a possibility it might work out sort-of OK as it stands.
While it's not all that hard to take out a single CO, it's a big job to take out a lot of them. That's a big upfront barrier. But once done, maintaining control is a lot easier. You don't put up lots of COs and defend them, you just have to attack and harass any that do get put up, either making them uneconomical to use (PvP) or take them out and make them uneconomical to place (PvE). (Making then uneconomical to use also spoils the ROI on placing them).
While it's a lot of ISK to put up a CO, the taxes you pay on high-end goods will eventually cover it, if you use the CO yourself. Whether you can pay for a CO used by others with taxes you charge, remains to be seen. Probably not, if people are taking them out.
It may be possible to get locals in losec to work together to both remove Interbus COs, and share POCOs amiably.
Or POCOs might only end up in 0.0 space in any numbers. It's going to be a lot easier to take down Interbus COs in space you control.
[And does Incarna include a fix for the forum software, so it doesn't discard posts????] |
Diametrix
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 02:37:00 -
[410] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Exer Toralen wrote:If you could justify POCOs as low-sec attractiveness improvement - lay down your arguments. Braggery is irrelevant. If you can control/secure a lowsec system, now you can profit from it. Simple as that.
Damn good insight. I'm excited for tomorrow again. |
|
Diametrix
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 03:20:00 -
[411] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Altolinchen wrote:Will the Interbus POCO's have a reinforcement timer or can they been blow up straight away? So the planet is free for my own? No reinforcement. But the Interbus offices take longer to kill than player ones (14.5 mil hp, vs 7.5 + 4.5).
So, let me get this straight? CCP, in an effort to energize the content dry and oft complained of Low Sec, introduces a feature that has profit potential (everyone magnet), pirate/maffia infighting potential w/ lots o' pvp (low sec magnet) and smacks of soveriegn/territory control as well as big potential for inspired FW fights (null sec & FW magnet).
It could be thier plan to turn low sec into the EVE farmland and introduction to territorial warfare.
Or I guess it could be a completely iditotic excuse for a PI update that is doomed to utterly fail...leading to more mass firings out of Iceland...tipping a critical butterfly wing effect throughout world markets (CCP world wide international corporation run by Vikings you know) which results in a huge double dip market collapse driving Earth into a Greatest EVEr Depression.....
Could be either. Or neither. I'll try it.
I'd rather go w/ the first one though |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
334
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 04:33:00 -
[412] - Quote
Diametrix wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Altolinchen wrote:Will the Interbus POCO's have a reinforcement timer or can they been blow up straight away? So the planet is free for my own? No reinforcement. But the Interbus offices take longer to kill than player ones (14.5 mil hp, vs 7.5 + 4.5). So, let me get this straight? CCP, in an effort to energize the content dry and oft complained of Low Sec, introduces a feature that has profit potential (everyone magnet), pirate/maffia infighting potential w/ lots o' pvp (low sec magnet) and smacks of soveriegn/territory control as well as big potential for inspired FW fights (null sec & FW magnet). It could be thier plan to turn low sec into the EVE farmland and introduction to territorial warfare. Or I guess it could be a completely iditotic excuse for a PI update that is doomed to utterly fail...leading to more mass firings out of Iceland...tipping a critical butterfly wing effect throughout world markets (CCP world wide international corporation run by Vikings you know) which results in a huge double dip market collapse driving Earth into a Greatest EVEr Depression..... Could be either. Or neither. I'll try it. I'd rather go w/ the first one though
If you've lived in low sec you know its the second one.
Issler
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
92
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 05:06:00 -
[413] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote: If you've lived in low sec you know its the second one.
Issler
Your posting is so bad -- hysterical, defeatist claims not backed up by any kind of logical arguments or sisi testing, and signed by your own damn forum name again and again -- that I may actually track down your area of operations and come kill every stupid CO in the region. Just because of your posting.
I see you're some in some terrible corp with 30% efficiency on eve-kill, operating mostly in genesis and khanid. With a string of exhumer and T1 BC losses but basically no success. No wonder you don't want anything that could possibly be shot by players, you might have to pvp in lowsec, or ally with someone who can fight for you. The end of the world!!
You're currently located in Meildolf, Molden Heath region. Doing PI there while safely doing industry and mining in the highsec island next to it? Be seeing you. |
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 05:37:00 -
[414] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Issler Dainze wrote: If you've lived in low sec you know its the second one.
Issler
Your posting is so bad -- hysterical, defeatist claims not backed up by any kind of logical arguments or sisi testing, and signed by your own damn forum name again and again -- that I may actually track down your area of operations and come kill every stupid CO in the region. Just because of your posting. I see you're some in some terrible corp with 30% efficiency on eve-kill, operating mostly in genesis and khanid. With a string of exhumer and T1 BC losses but basically no success. No wonder you don't want anything that could possibly be shot by players, you might have to pvp in lowsec, or ally with someone who can fight for you. The end of the world!! You're currently located in Meildolf, Molden Heath region. Doing PI there while safely doing industry and mining in the highsec island next to it? Be seeing you.
To much tanning booth my friend... and more brown on your nose than a tanning booth would do.
You do have pretty lips tho, but like most goons a bit stretched out from sucking your new Russian pals. Guess goons will do ANYTHING to stay relevant.
|
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
335
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 05:38:00 -
[415] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Issler Dainze wrote: If you've lived in low sec you know its the second one.
Issler
Your posting is so bad -- hysterical, defeatist claims not backed up by any kind of logical arguments or sisi testing, and signed by your own damn forum name again and again -- that I may actually track down your area of operations and come kill every stupid CO in the region. Just because of your posting. I see you're some in some terrible corp with 30% efficiency on eve-kill, operating mostly in genesis and khanid. With a string of exhumer and T1 BC losses but basically no success. No wonder you don't want anything that could possibly be shot by players, you might have to pvp in lowsec, or ally with someone who can fight for you. The end of the world!! You're currently located in Meildolf, Molden Heath region. Doing PI there while safely doing industry and mining in the highsec island next to it? Be seeing you.
Some inspired guesses, but, nope, did live in the high sec bubble a couple of years back and definitely not living in Meildolf, Pass through there once in a while so start there if you think chasing me down is a good use of your time.
What you don't get is SiSi testing has nothing to do with the nature of low sec in the real Eve world. I live with the low sec pirates and watch what motivates them. This "feature" assumes someone living there is going to suddenly want to work in some group hug lets all make isks fashion. They won't. They will like something new to shoot at though when they are bored or if they think it would produce "carebear tears".
I mean look at you, from forum postings you want to hunt me or pop the COs where you think I live (I've already assumed they be gone in days anyways and have taken appropriate action). What really proves my point is if you wanted to prove me wrong you'd find some low sec place where I do PI in and put up your own PoCos and tax me. The fact you didn't consider that proves my point. These will be popped just for the popping.
As to my corp, we are very typical of industrial corps, the kind of corp that finds something like PI a worthwhile pass time. Folks like us are a big part of Eve and this feature will just make us like Eve less.
And what about signing with my forum name, its branding!
Issler
|
Diametrix
State Protectorate Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 06:27:00 -
[416] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:pmchem wrote:Issler Dainze wrote: If you've lived in low sec you know its the second one.
Issler
Your posting is so bad -- hysterical, defeatist claims not backed up by any kind of logical arguments or sisi testing, and signed by your own damn forum name again and again -- that I may actually track down your area of operations and come kill every stupid CO in the region. Just because of your posting. I see you're some in some terrible corp with 30% efficiency on eve-kill, operating mostly in genesis and khanid. With a string of exhumer and T1 BC losses but basically no success. No wonder you don't want anything that could possibly be shot by players, you might have to pvp in lowsec, or ally with someone who can fight for you. The end of the world!! You're currently located in Meildolf, Molden Heath region. Doing PI there while safely doing industry and mining in the highsec island next to it? Be seeing you. Some inspired guesses, but, nope, did live in the high sec bubble a couple of years back and definitely not living in Meildolf, Pass through there once in a while so start there if you think chasing me down is a good use of your time. What you don't get is SiSi testing has nothing to do with the nature of low sec in the real Eve world. I live with the low sec pirates and watch what motivates them. This "feature" assumes someone living there is going to suddenly want to work in some group hug lets all make isks fashion. They won't. They will like something new to shoot at though when they are bored or if they think it would produce "carebear tears". I mean look at you, from forum postings you want to hunt me or pop the COs where you think I live (I've already assumed they be gone in days anyways and have taken appropriate action). What really proves my point is if you wanted to prove me wrong you'd find some low sec place where I do PI in and put up your own PoCos and tax me. The fact you didn't consider that proves my point. These will be popped just for the popping. As to my corp, we are very typical of industrial corps, the kind of corp that finds something like PI a worthwhile pass time. Folks like us are a big part of Eve and this feature will just make us like Eve less. And what about signing with my forum name, its branding! Issler
Is'nt this what's great about EVE, Issler? You can be utterly certain that your limited perspective of what this game is all about and how it works is simply 'The Way It Is'. Yet, there are people ALL AROUND YOU that see the whole thing differently.
And they profit. And they hunt. And they manipulate and wheel and deal. And some play alot like you and others play differently all together.
And CCP is going to add something to the game that will change it. And despite your devoutly proclaimed prophecy, the game, or low sec or whatever percentage of reality you believe will collapse, probably won't.
You might, then, look at this whole thing differently. Or you might call Goons names on an MMO forumn.
|
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 06:30:00 -
[417] - Quote
Diametrix wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:pmchem wrote:Issler Dainze wrote: If you've lived in low sec you know its the second one.
Issler
Your posting is so bad -- hysterical, defeatist claims not backed up by any kind of logical arguments or sisi testing, and signed by your own damn forum name again and again -- that I may actually track down your area of operations and come kill every stupid CO in the region. Just because of your posting. I see you're some in some terrible corp with 30% efficiency on eve-kill, operating mostly in genesis and khanid. With a string of exhumer and T1 BC losses but basically no success. No wonder you don't want anything that could possibly be shot by players, you might have to pvp in lowsec, or ally with someone who can fight for you. The end of the world!! You're currently located in Meildolf, Molden Heath region. Doing PI there while safely doing industry and mining in the highsec island next to it? Be seeing you. Some inspired guesses, but, nope, did live in the high sec bubble a couple of years back and definitely not living in Meildolf, Pass through there once in a while so start there if you think chasing me down is a good use of your time. What you don't get is SiSi testing has nothing to do with the nature of low sec in the real Eve world. I live with the low sec pirates and watch what motivates them. This "feature" assumes someone living there is going to suddenly want to work in some group hug lets all make isks fashion. They won't. They will like something new to shoot at though when they are bored or if they think it would produce "carebear tears". I mean look at you, from forum postings you want to hunt me or pop the COs where you think I live (I've already assumed they be gone in days anyways and have taken appropriate action). What really proves my point is if you wanted to prove me wrong you'd find some low sec place where I do PI in and put up your own PoCos and tax me. The fact you didn't consider that proves my point. These will be popped just for the popping. As to my corp, we are very typical of industrial corps, the kind of corp that finds something like PI a worthwhile pass time. Folks like us are a big part of Eve and this feature will just make us like Eve less. And what about signing with my forum name, its branding! Issler Is'nt this what's great about EVE, Issler? You can be utterly certain that your limited perspective of what this game is all about and how it works is simply 'The Way It Is'. Yet, there are people ALL AROUND YOU that see the whole thing differently. And they profit. And they hunt. And they manipulate and wheel and deal. And some play alot like you and others play differently all together. And CCP is going to add something to the game that will change it. And despite your devoutly proclaimed prophecy, the game, or low sec or whatever percentage of reality you believe will collapse, probably won't. You might, then, look at this whole thing differently. Or you might call Goons names on an MMO forumn.
Or not lol. I love when people on forums act superior, its amusing. Might be - might not who knows. Anyone who states 'this is how it is' is full of it. It's just their little slice of experience... like yours. |
Keyran Tyler
Bionesis Technologies Electus Matari
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 07:02:00 -
[418] - Quote
Arkady Sadik wrote:A somewhat more arcane request:
Could we please get some good story background on the Interbus customs offices? My alliance has been discussing whether we want to shoot down Interbus COs (they're neutral, why would we?), and even whether we consider others shooting Interbus COs as piracy (they're shooting corp property of a peaceful entity, so yes; CONCORD doesn't care at all, so no?)
It's a lovely discussion, but there's awfully little backstory on the issue, so it's not easy to actually discuss the ethical ramifications. *Some* background would be nice :-)
Supported |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
336
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 20:28:00 -
[419] - Quote
Diametrix wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:pmchem wrote:Issler Dainze wrote: If you've lived in low sec you know its the second one.
Issler
Your posting is so bad -- hysterical, defeatist claims not backed up by any kind of logical arguments or sisi testing, and signed by your own damn forum name again and again -- that I may actually track down your area of operations and come kill every stupid CO in the region. Just because of your posting. I see you're some in some terrible corp with 30% efficiency on eve-kill, operating mostly in genesis and khanid. With a string of exhumer and T1 BC losses but basically no success. No wonder you don't want anything that could possibly be shot by players, you might have to pvp in lowsec, or ally with someone who can fight for you. The end of the world!! You're currently located in Meildolf, Molden Heath region. Doing PI there while safely doing industry and mining in the highsec island next to it? Be seeing you. Some inspired guesses, but, nope, did live in the high sec bubble a couple of years back and definitely not living in Meildolf, Pass through there once in a while so start there if you think chasing me down is a good use of your time. What you don't get is SiSi testing has nothing to do with the nature of low sec in the real Eve world. I live with the low sec pirates and watch what motivates them. This "feature" assumes someone living there is going to suddenly want to work in some group hug lets all make isks fashion. They won't. They will like something new to shoot at though when they are bored or if they think it would produce "carebear tears". I mean look at you, from forum postings you want to hunt me or pop the COs where you think I live (I've already assumed they be gone in days anyways and have taken appropriate action). What really proves my point is if you wanted to prove me wrong you'd find some low sec place where I do PI in and put up your own PoCos and tax me. The fact you didn't consider that proves my point. These will be popped just for the popping. As to my corp, we are very typical of industrial corps, the kind of corp that finds something like PI a worthwhile pass time. Folks like us are a big part of Eve and this feature will just make us like Eve less. And what about signing with my forum name, its branding! Issler Is'nt this what's great about EVE, Issler? You can be utterly certain that your limited perspective of what this game is all about and how it works is simply 'The Way It Is'. Yet, there are people ALL AROUND YOU that see the whole thing differently. And they profit. And they hunt. And they manipulate and wheel and deal. And some play alot like you and others play differently all together. And CCP is going to add something to the game that will change it. And despite your devoutly proclaimed prophecy, the game, or low sec or whatever percentage of reality you believe will collapse, probably won't. You might, then, look at this whole thing differently. Or you might call Goons names on an MMO forumn.
I want to point out that a lot of people responding to this thread saw it exactly like me. I wasn't the only one predicting this to be a bad thing.
Only time will tell, but show me one thing in the last 5 years that made low sec better for anyone.
Issler |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
175
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 20:30:00 -
[420] - Quote
Two weeks ago you wrote:
Issler Dainze wrote:I live in lowsec (somewhere in Molden Heath and have spent the majority of my Eve life in low sec of null) and do all my PI in low sec.
Now you write:
Issler Dainze wrote:Some inspired guesses, but, nope, did live in the high sec bubble a couple of years back and definitely not living in Meildolf, Pass through there once in a while so start there if you think chasing me down is a good use of your time.
So, which one is it? I certainly haven't seen you or your alliance in molden lowsec for the past two years. When you said you lived "in lowsec" you meant in the highsec pocket, didn't you? |
|
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
337
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 22:11:00 -
[421] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Two weeks ago you wrote: Issler Dainze wrote:I live in lowsec (somewhere in Molden Heath and have spent the majority of my Eve life in low sec of null) and do all my PI in low sec. Now you write: Issler Dainze wrote:Some inspired guesses, but, nope, did live in the high sec bubble a couple of years back and definitely not living in Meildolf, Pass through there once in a while so start there if you think chasing me down is a good use of your time. So, which one is it? I certainly haven't seen you or your alliance in molden lowsec for the past two years. When you said you lived "in lowsec" you meant in the highsec pocket, didn't you?
I am excited you are paying me so much attention!
We closed down the Eldulf office over a year ago. If I'm in the high sec pocket these days its to get to low sec on the other side. I still try and make the odd isk here and there by trying to trade in low sec markets. Servicing my inner smuggler.
The Alliance is now more active in other regions.
In preparation for this expansion I've moved the majority of my PI to .5 in other regions and when the last of the low sec PoCos I need to use get 'sploded I'll move the rest to some .5 (or maybe use the lauch pad for stuff that is smaller in quantity).
None of that changes my basic position about the PoCo change. That is simply this:
-Eve makes people evil -Low sec is where some of the most evil folks live -Low sec is much harder to defend -It is not typical Eve behavior to come together to build something together on low sec -It is typical Eve behavior to 'splode anything in low sec when folks get bored -There are more folks in low sec looking for carebear tears than anywhere else in Eve -The PoCos can't make you enough money in low sec to make someone want to put the isk at risk to build one
I don't claim to know everything but I personally expect this to end up being a bad thing in low sec. Anyways. My opinion, I'm entitled to it.
And I would love to be proven wrong as it would give me hope that something in Eve didn't just bring out the worst in folks.
Issler |
Mamy Pepite
Osiris Entreprises OSE Fondation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 22:22:00 -
[422] - Quote
x100 on taxes for planetary launches, x12 (almost) for taxes on robotics export through custom office, well done CCP. If the plan was to kill PI in hi-sec of course |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
55
|
Posted - 2011.11.29 23:09:00 -
[423] - Quote
I've been reading this thread since the new release and I'm seeing "/signed for removal". Regardless of the reasons at this point, players are beginning to reject the idea outright in a unified fashion. The other effects are yet to come from this change, but please, don't let my predictions (and now this unified rejection) prevent you from taking another hard look at all the material that's been posted thus far.
The rampant ignorance continues. I'm done seeing people comment about not having used/tested/experienced the new feature. We get it, you're on board with the wait and see attitude adopted by the developers who put this feature out. I can only guess (guess means guess) that the team responsible for this change, while noble in intent, has not released a feature of this magnitude before and can't even consider the ramifications. Likewise, there's a group of players that get their jollies off on commenting on the credibility of a forum poster based on publicly available knowledge about said player instead of what can't be displayed on a killboard/forum/bio/corp description: personal experience across many other characters (you know, those things called alts). We don't come to these conclusions lightly.
It's through our combined man-cenutries of playing the game that we derive our concern for something that we all hold dear.
/signed for removal btw. |
LB Wrench
Ordo Eventus Inception Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 02:50:00 -
[424] - Quote
Quote: If you can't max out a basic link in highsec, you're doing it wrong. And the link buff gives 3x more stuff which makes a huge difference, especially on big (eg gas) planets.
Eh - no - the new links let 10 times as much materials go through - it dont "add" anything.. its not ure extractors that now extract more - its not ure factories - producing more - its ure links that can carry more.
- LB |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
101
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 03:19:00 -
[425] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote: The rampant ignorance continues.
Much like your posting. Rampant ignorance without a shred of evidence-based argument or reasoned explanation.
POCOs are gonna be great. Player-driven economy, not bots clicking buttons in highsec 23/7. |
Mechnom
My-Space
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.30 10:03:00 -
[426] - Quote
/ Signed for Removal
at least in (empire) lowsec |
Abbah
The Autobotz The Cool Kids Club
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 02:35:00 -
[427] - Quote
According to the dev blog, Quote:All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes. . Well I think someone miss calculated. Before the patch I was paying 23,400 ISK per import and after the patch it has gone to 2,340,000 ISK. In my world that is more like a 10,000% increase. Come on CCP. |
Abbah
The Autobotz The Cool Kids Club
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 03:40:00 -
[428] - Quote
Abbah wrote:According to the dev blog, Quote:All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes. . Well I think someone miss calculated. Before the patch I was paying 23,400 ISK per import and after the patch it has gone to 2,340,000 ISK. In my world that is more like a 10,000% increase. Come on CCP.
Looks like the export tax is way off also. |
Mechnom
My-Space
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 09:31:00 -
[429] - Quote
at least re-spawn poco when they are not rebuild within a day... (make them easier to kill too if you like)
like this exporting via command center is a pain in the ass! or give the command center a capacity of more then 500 m3 - or enable planetary launch via spaceport too!
btw: i dont care too much about these changes from a pi poerspective - just pos'es will be much more expansive to maintain - so prices for t2 and stuff will raise a lot... (my guess) pi prices simply will settle at a somewhat higher level...
|
disasteur
Tellcomtec Incorporated. Preatoriani
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 09:51:00 -
[430] - Quote
Mechnom wrote:at least re-spawn poco when they are not rebuild within a day... (make them easier to kill too if you like)
like this exporting via command center is a pain in the ass! or give the command center a capacity of more then 500 m3 - or enable planetary launch via spaceport too!
btw: i dont care too much about these changes from a pi poerspective - just pos'es will be much more expansive to maintain - so prices for t2 and stuff will raise a lot... (my guess) pi prices simply will settle at a somewhat higher level...
i think you have to recalculate your (somewhat higher level) |
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
12
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 11:06:00 -
[431] - Quote
Abbah wrote:According to the dev blog, Quote:All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes. . Well I think someone miss calculated. Before the patch I was paying 23,400 ISK per import and after the patch it has gone to 2,340,000 ISK. In my world that is more like a 10,000% increase. Come on CCP.
That's what I'm seeing, too, but I haven't had time to sit down and figure out what's really going on.
Seriously, I carefully exported and imported everything I could before the deployment, and then within a few hours after it came back, I updated my 6 planets, and just that few hours ran me something like 3.5 million. That's somewhere in the range of 100-150 million a week.
That doesn't seem right. I haven't had a chance to break it down yet, and compare with the stated rates, but I will as soon as I get a chance.
That would certainly make CO's a lot more profitable, but it would be a rather radical change to the economy. |
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 11:31:00 -
[432] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:That doesn't seem right. I haven't had a chance to break it down yet, and compare with the stated rates, but I will as soon as I get a chance.
Can't find right post at the moment. But taxes are different because: 1) they increased tax rate as promised 2) they set new hard-coded taxable prices for PI goods based on market state on November, 11 or something. P3 (robotics and such) = 70k, p2 (enriched uranium and such) = 9k, P1 (precious metals and such) = 500 (or 700?), etc.
So 17% tax at Interbus COs mean actual 17-20% of tax in PI pre-Crucible market prices. Considering you have to lift raw resources/P1 from resource planets and put them onto factory planet, that basically means paying about 50-60% of pre-Crucible market value of your resulting PI goods in taxes. |
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 11:31:00 -
[433] - Quote
Removed. Second post was made by mistake. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
598
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 11:38:00 -
[434] - Quote
Exer Toralen wrote:Removed. Second post was made by mistake.
A lot like these PCOs. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Lizzie Lefthand Marstolt
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 12:20:00 -
[435] - Quote
Anyone wanting to do PI in lowsec, check out the Faction Warfare areas. Then check the militia killboards for biggest fw corps. They might be willing to make deals for defending/attacking PCO's for isk. Thats why the militias are there, right? :) |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
55
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 14:57:00 -
[436] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote: The rampant ignorance continues.
Much like your posting. Rampant ignorance without a shred of evidence-based argument or reasoned explanation. POCOs are gonna be great. Player-driven economy, not bots clicking buttons in highsec 23/7.
I've posted a lot more than the above. If you care to comment, at least educate yourself on my other posts. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
55
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 15:15:00 -
[437] - Quote
Lizzie Lefthand Marstolt wrote:Anyone wanting to do PI in lowsec, check out the Faction Warfare areas. Then check the militia killboards for biggest fw corps. They might be willing to make deals for defending/attacking PCO's for isk. Thats why the militias are there, right? :)
The militias are there for LP, killmails, and easy access to pvp. POCOs are used by non-FW players as well. I don't see the militia's getting in on POCO destruction in the long run. |
Exer Toralen
Zaporozhye Sich
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 16:03:00 -
[438] - Quote
Ahh, here is right link: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
Check "Taxation" under "Managing a Customs Office" for taxing details. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
604
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 16:26:00 -
[439] - Quote
Re-reading it won't make the stupid go away. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
|
CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
1107
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:11:00 -
[440] - Quote
I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why.
The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.
With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.
By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden.
For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |
|
|
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery Dead On Arrival Alliance
431
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:25:00 -
[441] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi: --- The higher PI taxes are deliberate. We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why. The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk. With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed. By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden. For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeRegards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
<3 - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
mkint
413
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:35:00 -
[442] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi: --- The higher PI taxes are deliberate. We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why. The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk. With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed. By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden. For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeRegards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi tl;dr we realized 2 years later that PI was an incredibly stupid idea to begin with, as it broke one of the biggest isk sinks in the game. Since we at CCP don't like to admit mistakes or to really fix such mistakes the way they should be fixed, we are adding back in the old seed price concept AND making it a soul crushing grind. Enjoy one of the worst game mechanics being made even worse. |
Mechnom
My-Space
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:37:00 -
[443] - Quote
well i dont care too much about the taxes. that simply will raise the prices for pos'es / t2 mods / cap. parts as the prices for pi comodities will rise.
i do care about there not beeing a customs office and the pain it takes to export vie the command center.
what should be adressed (dirly) is the way to export stuff from a planet where there is no poco. dont expect small alliances to put one up themselves. as those affore mentioned raids will...
so my adjustment ideas would be:
1. limit the tax rate in empire lowsec to 20% - 25%
AND
2. when a poco is not rebuild within 20 hours a new one is set up (i.e a interbus one)
or
2. make planetary launches possible via the spaceport
or
2. make the storage capacity bigger in the command center
AND: make launches/export possible if not in solar system. well i assume it is just a bug, but one never knows... |
Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 17:45:00 -
[444] - Quote
On your announcement, you might want to fix your link. Only God knows where it is trying to go as-is. |
Abramul
StarFleet Enterprises RED.Legion
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:02:00 -
[445] - Quote
"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes." http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.asp
Mind changing this to reflect that it's closer to 100 times the old values for P1 and P2? I'd checked there and the two dev blogs before putting in a petition, and drew the conclusion it was bugged.
If anyone's wondering what the tax rates were changed from: P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit |
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group The Veerhouven Group
36
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:13:00 -
[446] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
It's no big deal. I've had as many as 30 PI operations running at the same time and have never made any significant profit from them even though I've tried a number of strategies, watched the tutorials, etc.
The easy solution to this wonderful idea, at least for now, is to blow them in place without exporting anything.
Maybe I'll try PI again some time, but there just doesn't seem to be any incentive.
Location: Currently circling the toilet bowl that is Eve.
Member of the 6%ers. |
Serceyes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:21:00 -
[447] - Quote
Why state in the dev blog that taxes will be double say for high sec when they end up nothing of the sort and in some cases are 100 times higher they were before.
Very misleading.
People assume that you know what you are talking about !!!
And can therefore only conclude that you don't !!! |
Jaggins
Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:21:00 -
[448] - Quote
If the taxes are hard, please stop doing PI so I can make even more ISK.
The market will find prices that incentivise creative solutions. Think low sec cartels, actually defending PCO's, etc...
I would say shame on the whiners, but they are fairly entertaining in a sad pitiful way. |
Dramaticus
Goonswarm Federation
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:29:00 -
[449] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
You own this owns |
Querns
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:32:00 -
[450] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
All my fives. Thank you for holding the line on this important issue. Making PI taxes worthwhile is a crucial step for the future of both alliances and DUST. |
|
gargars
Cohesion Inc Beyond-Repair
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:34:00 -
[451] - Quote
So you now say this was deliberate, yet the insane tax increase was never mentioned to us in advance? Not in the blog certainly and not even in the patch notes. Both state:
"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes"
Where did you tell us in advance that by 'doubled' you mean 'multiplied by 100'?
Nowhere. And why not?
Hoping it would slide under the radar somehow with people giddy over the true good changes in the expansion? I think this is going to go very badly for you. Cool new things people get used to fast, fail things like this that effect people's 'wallet' directly tend to not fade away.
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi: --- The higher PI taxes are deliberate. We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why. The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk. With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed. By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden. For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeRegards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
|
Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:39:00 -
[452] - Quote
This is an excellent change and will go a long way to making PI profitable and worth the risk. I appreciate you guys doing the right thing for game balance and ignoring the hi-sec complaints.
Thank you CCP. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
61
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:39:00 -
[453] - Quote
ACY GTMI wrote:CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
It's no big deal. I've had as many as 30 PI operations running at the same time and have never made any significant profit from them even though I've tried a number of strategies, watched the tutorials, etc. The easy solution to this wonderful idea, at least for now, is to blow them in place without exporting anything. Maybe I'll try PI again some time, but there just doesn't seem to be any incentive.
oh the tears, this is so good, please post more
I have the same numbers of cc in 6 chars and I get 2B each month (in low sec), so you are doing something very wrong!!!
Just to give you and idea of the impact, these new taxes cut my profits in 350M each month, so I'm going to wait until the prices go up to cover for these new production costs before I sell my stuff. Prices will go up, so nobody will loose nothing, the only diference is that you have to put some money upfront until you get the product in the market and sell it. Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
Sutha Moliko
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:39:00 -
[454] - Quote
Crucible is introducing something new that can lead to conflict of interest.To control a planet is something a single podpilot cannot do.
There will be war. POCO will be put in reinforced state. Corporations must join their forces and defend their interest, especially in low-sec.
Of course, base prices used to calculate taxes must be under control of CCP. Everyone can see the spiral if base prices are related to the market value of each product.
I used to hate the new taxes, now I can see the bold move from CCP.
Nice |
Turk Jaxor
The Knights of Eve Industries
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:42:00 -
[455] - Quote
I run a small research corp in high sec - this is going to seriously hurt us and others like us who were only doing PI to offset the tremendous costs of running a POS in the first place.
Time will tell if we can afford to keep them up. If we can't I'll probably close this account - why pay for something I can't use?
Doubling the price would have been acceptable - 100x the price is a freakin joke - and a bad one at that.
PI already sucked ass - all you've done here CCP is make a bad game feature even more unplayable. Don't you guys learn from your mistakes? I don't think you'll see raging like what happened with the Noble Exchange, but I'm equally sure all you've done is **** off a large portion of the player base. |
Michael Turate
The Bembridge Mining Company
22
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:43:00 -
[456] - Quote
Good change, makes PI less of a lone wolf industrialist pinata and now brings it into the realm of attack/defense co-op play. Rather than make PI more irrelevant this might make it actaully more absorbing as it will link to other parts of the game and other play styles. The increased difficuly means that the brave and clever will be rewarded and the weak and stupid will get stomped. Sounds like Eve working as intended to me! Well in you Devs! |
Faife
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:44:00 -
[457] - Quote
Turk Jaxor wrote:I run a small research corp in high sec - this is going to seriously hurt us and others like us who were only doing PI to offset the tremendous costs of running a POS in the first place.
Time will tell if we can afford to keep them up. If we can't I'll probably close this account - why pay for something I can't use?
Doubling the price would have been acceptable - 100x the price is a freakin joke - and a bad one at that.
PI already sucked ass - all you've done here CCP is make a bad game feature even more unplayable. Don't you guys learn from your mistakes? I don't think you'll see raging like what happened with the Noble Exchange, but I'm equally sure all you've done is **** off a large portion of the player base.
Consider buying the resources from cheap 0.0 PI planets and helping us pay our sov costs. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
608
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:45:00 -
[458] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi: --- The higher PI taxes are deliberate. We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why. The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk. With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed. By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden. For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeRegards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
Thank you CCP Guard, but we already knew they did something stupid on purpose. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:47:00 -
[459] - Quote
gargars wrote:So you now say this was deliberate, yet the insane tax increase was never mentioned to us in advance? Not in the blog certainly and not even in the patch notes. Both state:
"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes"
Where did you tell us in advance that by 'doubled' you mean 'multiplied by 100'?
Nowhere. And why not?
Hoping it would slide under the radar somehow with people giddy over the true good changes in the expansion? I think this is going to go very badly for you. Cool new things people get used to fast, fail things like this that effect people's 'wallet' directly tend to not fade away.
They did tell us about it, that wiki article he linked was updated at least a week before the expansion went live. It is hardly CCP's fault that you couldn't understand the implications. |
shea ashler
tech-legion STR8NGE BREW
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:47:00 -
[460] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi: --- The higher PI taxes are deliberate. We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why. The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk. With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed. By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden. For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeRegards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi if i understand this rightly then the tax can only do one thing ant that is incease... because "By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value" when the tax goes up the price on the product goes up.. with this model the tax will then increase again or...?
|
|
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
39
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:55:00 -
[461] - Quote
In truth my high sec PI alt has no issue with the higher tax rates. In the overall scheme of things, it makes sense. The only disappointment is the combination of saying in the dev blogs leading up to crucible is that export will double, where we now find after deployment of crucible, some instances of taxing have increased by 100 times the previous amount. And the final statement of saying this is deliberate.
If you made a mistake in the original blogs regarding the increase, just admit it. We're all (well at least some of us) adults, everyone makes mistakes, just fess up. Then we can move forward. As it stands, I get the distinct feeling that A) you lied to mislead us in the first place or B) You made a mistake and are too childish to admit it.
Either/or, just tell us which and lets move on.
I hate being shmoozed as if I am a 19 yr old girl talking to a used car salesman with no clue about cars besides you turn a key and off you go. I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
12
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 18:56:00 -
[462] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi: --- The higher PI taxes are deliberate. We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why. The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk. With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed. By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden. For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeRegards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
Did you consider and give proper weight to how this taxes based on full market value -- not added value like a VAT -- at every stage in the production? For high end goods with many steps, this repeated taxation multiplier will be very high.
I was aware of the factor, but I hadn't taken the time to do the calculations, and so I was rather surprised by how much it added up to.
You CERTAINLY did not communicate this factor up front. And yes, I'm sure you would have gotten more player resistance if you had, but that isn't a reason not to communicate.
My main criticism of all this is not what you're trying to do, but the degree of risk you seem willing to take of not just changing the balance, but of completely mangling it, in ways which are frankly beyond human analysis and prediction, and may turn out to be highly undesirable all around.
I do have one other issue, though. Basically, you're using ISK to try to drive people to do something that's fundamentally boring. I took down an Interbus CO on SiSi. It's going to be annoying. The only way it's not going to be annoying is with a fleet of dreadnaughts or similar scale effort. In some areas, that might produce fleet fights, but in most losec areas, nobody is going to attack such a fleet. If someone makes the fleet, you're handing power to the powerful. If the powerful don't find that interesting, you're back to using ISK to drive boredom.
All of the benefits you seek seem to be sitting behind a solid barrier of shooting-at-structures boredom.
It remains to be seen if you CAN drive people to it with ISK, but even if you can, is that really what you want?
|
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:00:00 -
[463] - Quote
Thanks CCP, that was actually a good change! (although initially propagated by a Goon )
I cried out very loud when I saw the new taxes. But thinking twice, POCOs would perfectly make NO sense with the old tax base. I already had my plans to completely ignore them, now I want to others to operate them. :-D
And yes: PI-people will earn less. But, why should any toon with just 2m SP be able to pay for the account with PLEXes? (working only like 3 hours a month) PI profits were ridiculously high, everyone has to admit that.
However, the change has some implications: Will PI move to wormholes? POCOs can be defended much easier there, low-class WHs have planets as rich as in nullsec and they are just one hop away from empire... Shouldn't the ressource distribution somehow be related to the wormhole class? (yes, it's a bit late for a change...) |
Certis
Wormhole Exploration Squad
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:03:00 -
[464] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi: --- The higher PI taxes are deliberate. We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why. The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk. With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed. By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden. For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeRegards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
Oh Right: " we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices." - actually No you are not. You are encouraging corps to own and operate offices. (those that can be bothered that is)
Many players are in corps that will not want to build POCO's. Many players are not and do not want to be in Player corps. Many players will not want to start their own corp. And there will be some like me who are remaining loyal to a corp in the hope that all the other corp members who have unsubscribed due to previous ill thought out nerfs, may eventually re-subscribe when they feel that CCP are finally listening to their player base. ( I aint holding my breath though)
Finally many players like me have now twice (including the previous bad PI patch) had to waste a great deal of time and effort in building and balancing their PI operations, only to find once again that it has now been totally broken.
Low sec has long been severly under utilised - you brought something in to make it a much more viable proposition for players to operate in low sec - now, in one fell swoop you have taken low sec back to square one - good thinking Batman.
And to answer all the sucks who will just say, "well do something else, do this or do that" I say: Who the hell are you to tell anyone else how to play the game that they pay for. It is partly due to sucks like you that just sit back and take it up the rear end, that this once great game has been allowed to gradually decline in to a shadow of it's former self and is losing subscribers by the truckload - and will continue to do so each and every time CCP keep moving the goal posts. |
Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:04:00 -
[465] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:You CERTAINLY did not communicate this factor up front.
The second greatest thing about Wiki articles is that they have a history. |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
193
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:05:00 -
[466] - Quote
Quote:We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirthisposmed that the tax rates match the design specifications. Please read this post for more information about the new tax rate on NPC Custom Offices.
We have received a number of petition (remove comma) asking if new tax rates....
Our developers have confirthisposmed that the tax rates match the design specifications
Please fix your news :P Mimidae Risk Solutions Recruiting |
Zaine Maltis
Innsmouth Enterprises
19
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:05:00 -
[467] - Quote
Quote: Our developers have confirthis posmed that the tax rates
confirthis posmed? What language is this? :D Innsmouth Enterprises
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:05:00 -
[468] - Quote
Anvil44 wrote:In truth my high sec PI alt has no issue with the higher tax rates. In the overall scheme of things, it makes sense. The only disappointment is the combination of saying in the dev blogs leading up to crucible is that export will double, where we now find after deployment of crucible, some instances of taxing have increased by 100 times the previous amount. And the final statement of saying this is deliberate.
The question here is whether this miscommunication was deliberate? I tend to think not -- but people accuse me of being naive on such things.
I for one took CCP Omen at his word that taxes were double, and didn't look closely at the details. Rather than blowing up a CO on SiSi, I should have been looking for a fast one on taxes.
I don't have a huge problem with the taxes per se. At the first level, the markets will adjust, prices will go up. But then prices of fueling towers will go up. Prices of T2 goods will go up. This is a major asymmetric inflationary pressure that WILL change the game. But how? Will we like the changes?
Maybe. Or maybe this will serve to drive the wedge further between CCP and the player base.
It'll be an interesting experiment, but I wouldn't have chosen to bet so much of the game and the company on the outcome.
Still, best wishes on managing it all and getting a positive outcome. |
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:07:00 -
[469] - Quote
empty |
Mechnom
My-Space
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:07:00 -
[470] - Quote
Calorn Marthor wrote: I cried out very loud when I saw the new taxes. But thinking twice, POCOs would perfectly make NO sense with the old tax base.
/signed
although there needs to be readjustment in case ppl just take down the (po)co and do not set up new ones.
higher taxes do make sense to pay sov costs to 0.o alliances - with the old taxes a poco would have been nonsense.
but in cases ppl just blow up the existing ones or dont bother setting up missing ones wouldn't it be a incredible loss to interbuss loosing all those taxes. i suppose they need the iskies too :) - well and i just realized it is a real pain in the ass to export via command center if there is no poco.
|
|
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:07:00 -
[471] - Quote
Anvil44 wrote: If you made a mistake in the original blogs regarding the increase, just admit it. We're all (well at least some of us) adults, everyone makes mistakes, just fess up. Then we can move forward. As it stands, I get the distinct feeling that A) you lied to mislead us in the first place or B) You made a mistake and are too childish to admit it.
Either/or, just tell us which and lets move on.
Technically, the blog was correct: the tax RATE has doubled. Before it was 5% everywhere for COs and 7,5% for rockets, now its 10% for CONCORD, 15% for rockets and 17% for Interbus. Yes, interbus is more expensive than the messy launch option that requires a clickfest.
What they did NOT tell, however, was that the base values for the taxes were altered as well (that is why the price per product rose so dramatically).
BUT THIS WAS A CHANGE BASED ON PLAYER FEEDBACK: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33468
So I agree, CCP should have made that clearer to the players who don't follow the discussions here closely. |
SojournerRover
Insidious Design Talocan United
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:10:00 -
[472] - Quote
Go to Null, or a Wormhole. Set whatever taxes you want and defend your property. This gives corporations more power. You figure it out.
Stop being a HS sec crying machine!
Rover (REDRUM) |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:13:00 -
[473] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:ZaBob wrote:You CERTAINLY did not communicate this factor up front. The second greatest thing about Wiki articles is that they have a history.
OK, I reviewed every single revision in the history, as well as first/last. That section is so far unmodified.
Is your point that the original communication is permanently captured going forward? |
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:19:00 -
[474] - Quote
gargars wrote:So you now say this was deliberate, yet the insane tax increase was never mentioned to us in advance? Not in the blog certainly and not even in the patch notes. Both state:
"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes"
Where did you tell us in advance that by 'doubled' you mean 'multiplied by 100'?
Nowhere. And why not?
Hoping it would slide under the radar somehow with people giddy over the true good changes in the expansion? I think this is going to go very badly for you. Cool new things people get used to fast, fail things like this that effect people's 'wallet' directly tend to not fade away.
First off, to all the people crying about PI tax changes, especially the people voted above. Yummy care bear tears. Crying some more please I don't think you quite filled your local hisec customs office, yet keep trying you get there. When you dry your eyes out enough to read you may remember a dev blog about custom offices located here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice For lazy people it's copied below:
Taxation
Tax % is taken off the material's taxable value.
This value is set by CCP and is based off the market values in November 2011 Import is always half of export tax
The taxable value are the same for all items in the same tier Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK
Let me highlight the important part for those of you who have trouble reading:
This value is set by CCP and is based off the market values in November 2011 Import is always half of export tax
They made the tax change and then a double the tax percentage percentage for hi-sec which makes sense considering they wanted to be profitable for people to run their own custom offices . Due to the risk versus reward system eve is based off of this makes much more sense. |
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:19:00 -
[475] - Quote
Asmodes Reynolds wrote:gargars wrote:So you now say this was deliberate, yet the insane tax increase was never mentioned to us in advance? Not in the blog certainly and not even in the patch notes. Both state:
"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes"
Where did you tell us in advance that by 'doubled' you mean 'multiplied by 100'?
Nowhere. And why not?
Hoping it would slide under the radar somehow with people giddy over the true good changes in the expansion? I think this is going to go very badly for you. Cool new things people get used to fast, fail things like this that effect people's 'wallet' directly tend to not fade away.
First off, to all the people crying about PI tax changes, especially the people quoted above. Yummy care bear tears. Crying some more please I don't think you quite filled your local hisec customs office, yet keep trying you get there. When you dry your eyes out enough to read you may remember a dev blog about custom offices located here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeFor lazy people it's copied below: Taxation Tax % is taken off the material's taxable value. This value is set by CCP and is based off the market values in November 2011 Import is always half of export tax The taxable value are the same for all items in the same tier Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK Let me highlight the important part for those of you who have trouble reading: This value is set by CCP and is based off the market values in November 2011 Import is always half of export tax They made the tax change and then a double the tax percentage percentage for hi-sec which makes sense considering they wanted to be profitable for people to run their own custom offices . Due to the risk versus reward system eve is based off of this makes much more sense.
|
Anvil44
Independent Traders and Builders MPA
40
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:21:00 -
[476] - Quote
Calorn Marthor wrote:more stuff So I agree, CCP should have made that clearer to the players who don't follow the discussions here closely.
adding: or who do but either misread or just didn't get it. Cause I didn't get it as you pointed out. In which case, my bad. However, the update given by CCP Guard could point this out more directly for those of us who missed it the first time, using small words so we get it right...
I may not like you or your point of view but you have a right to voice it. |
|
CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:25:00 -
[477] - Quote
Our apologies for not being more prompt with this message, the base prices were changed late in the piece after reviewing a lot of feedback. Still, the information is available now and we are happy with the current course so it is in your hands to see what you can do with it. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
|
Peich Prime
1st Airborne Division
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:25:00 -
[478] - Quote
Well
Up to x100 taxes...
You should quit smoking that **** men!!!
|
tengen san
Triton-TC
8
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:27:00 -
[479] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
Like shifting PI to 0.0.?
Quote: By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and..... On a more seriose note:
Selecting a single month as Nov 2011 to adjust the taxable value must be considered as shortsighted from the point of value evaluation as PI prices in Nov 2011 were heavily inflated.
A more realistic/ sensetive taxation adjustment should reflect the 12 months value average.
|
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
22
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:27:00 -
[480] - Quote
So basically you haven't altered your plans from the first dev blog when that **** Dev said that us "little guys" should just use Hi sec planets!
The high tax rates have nothing to do with profit margins, the profit margins will remain the same, it will be a % of the cost of production the same as it is now you ****
The tax rates in 0.0 and low sec are designed to **** off the larger corps and alliances who can afford to install and protect a POCO, so they blow up the high tax interbus one and install their own.
Obviously they will charge themselves nothing and anybody else will be charged whatever they think best, i would imagine same as it is at interbus, any higher and ppl will go elsewhere and there is no point charging less.
So we end up with a situation where the biggest blob around can manufacture PI items for nothing and the small independent players/corps are screwed.
I do.......erm...... did PI in 0.0 NPC space, and think after all the hassle that entails i had the same right to the resources as anybody else in those systems, it seems you at CCP think different.
Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.
|
|
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:28:00 -
[481] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:ZaBob wrote:You CERTAINLY did not communicate this factor up front. The second greatest thing about Wiki articles is that they have a history.
I do not see either the original dev blog, the revised dev blog or the patch notes directing anyone to the wiki article you seem to like brandishing about. Not until today that is.
What I do see is it repeatedly stated that the taxes were being doubled. That is it. |
Amon Sono
Perkone Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:30:00 -
[482] - Quote
I feel the new changes to PI will make null sec pi more interesting. However for those folks in low and high sec it is not so good. The changes make it so only large corps will be able to compete in low sec. What will happen is a drop off in players using this feature. PI in low and high sec was never a big isk maker to start with. Now many people who engage in PI have less of a reason to continue doing PI.
While I applaud CCP for its efforts at contunuing to improve the game this particular idea isn't the best. |
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
26
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:33:00 -
[483] - Quote
1) CCP getting heat over a controversial change forced on players 2) CCP Alts - errmmm - 'people who have never posted before' show support for CCP 3) CCP not that clever
Calorn Marthor wrote:Thanks CCP, that was actually a good change! (although initially propagated by a Goon ) I cried out very loud when I saw the new taxes. But thinking twice, POCOs would perfectly make NO sense with the old tax base. I already had my plans to completely ignore them, now I want to others to operate them. :-D And yes: PI-people will earn less. But, why should any toon with just 2m SP be able to pay for the account with PLEXes? (working only like 3 hours a month) PI profits were ridiculously high, everyone has to admit that. However, the change has some implications: Will PI move to wormholes? POCOs can be defended much easier there, low-class WHs have planets as rich as in nullsec and they are just one hop away from empire... Shouldn't the ressource distribution somehow be related to the wormhole class? (yes, it's a bit late for a change...)
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:37:00 -
[484] - Quote
I'm somewhat discouraged to hear the response from Omen through someone besides Omen.
If the idea was to reduce profits, yeah... the new POCOs will get that done. Nothing has been done to address the fundamental problems with the feature, which I'm not surprised about. I've been thinking about it and my problem with it really boils down to this:
Previously, there were many people ninja PI'ing in low-sec. They were able to do this because their CO's were static. After that, it's just about avoiding the pirates. The market has adjusted to the supply available (both in terms of volume of goods demanded/required, and the pricing of said goods). The PI products are integrated into everything in eve these days, besides ships (sort of). This is basically caused by PI goods being used to manufacture and fuel the Player Owned Starbases and sovereignty structures in null sec. Towers are so strongly tied to the price of everything that by increasing the price of PI goods, you are increasing the prices of all goods on the market today (and that's assuming demand doesn't change.) With a new expansion coming out, more players (presumably, based on previous active player counts) will cause a general increase in demand of goods driving prices even higher and exacerbating the problem.
All that being said, my problem is not with the price as determined by the market. Eve's capitalist system ensures that goods sell for what they are worth (in general). By big issue is the availability of PI materials (and correspondingly the volume of produced goods and services). Even in the interim, when stockpiles will be used to supply the needs of Eve (this is also common at the expansion boundaries), this problem will not be apparent. Once the stockpiles are used up, we only have the flow of PI goods from tier 1 producers.
This is the other part of the problem. Because of how PI has been implemented, many of the producers that bring materials into the system are no longer producing or doing so in high-sec to avoid the mess that low-sec will be. This is the volume drop that will cause the corresponding price hikes. Forget the inflation going on with the lack of ISK sinks that I initially thought could cause problems.
TL;DR
The people against this change all have a piece of this explanation for why we're against it. I'm trying to look at the big picture here based on my experience with the Eve player base. This isn't healthy for the game, and if any of this doesn't look familiar to you, dev's, you need to take another hard look at how you're implementing this feature. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:39:00 -
[485] - Quote
Which conflicts horribly with the original stated idea that PI was supposed to be a low barrier thing that any new player can jump into and make a profit...
Now, unless you have a gang of players in low/null, it is a waste of ISK.
We have two mutually exclusive elements here.... |
gargars
Cohesion Inc Beyond-Repair
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:41:00 -
[486] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:gargars wrote:So you now say this was deliberate, yet the insane tax increase was never mentioned to us in advance? Not in the blog certainly and not even in the patch notes. Both state:
"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes"
Where did you tell us in advance that by 'doubled' you mean 'multiplied by 100'?
Nowhere. And why not?
Hoping it would slide under the radar somehow with people giddy over the true good changes in the expansion? I think this is going to go very badly for you. Cool new things people get used to fast, fail things like this that effect people's 'wallet' directly tend to not fade away. They did tell us about it, that wiki article he linked was updated at least a week before the expansion went live. It is hardly CCP's fault that you couldn't understand the implications.
I get my information from the blogs. Neither the first or updated blog ever directed anyone to a wiki link for information. The first mention I see of the wiki article is from today. Regardless it is even vague as to there being a major change.
What I do see in the official blogs, is "The taxes you paid before can be translated into this new system, and that would equal 5% tax in a player owned customs office. So, if you set the tax to 5% you will pay the exact same as before."
The exact same, not 'multiply it by 100 because we are changing something else but not telling you about it in the blogs'.
|
Rip Sword
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:42:00 -
[487] - Quote
Doesn't sound logical that a costums office gets a percentage of the value of the PI. To me they are providing a service of taking items to and from the planet for you. This fee should be based on volume M3 of the the Import and export. Going down is easier then going up so going up and charging more going up makes since. They had no part in working and making the product so taking a percentage of the value is not logical. If you import the PI from another source then your not stealing that planets resources and that planet's CO should not get a cut of the PI's value coming in either. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:45:00 -
[488] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote: Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Yeah.. every time they claim this, they end up adding in a feature that is really only useful to big alliances under some idea that it will encourage people to 'team up'.
Meanwhile the high-sec L4 isk faucet (which buys all those expensive toys found but not used in null) remains the same. Things that help null are left alone, thing that compete with null are nerfed... and of course low sec still ends up with the short end of both sticks. |
Organic
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:46:00 -
[489] - Quote
What irritates me incredibly is CCP continually changing the "rules" in an apparent attempt to force everything to nul sec.
I've been playing long enough to see hundreds of hours of work by players on everything from ship configuation, to learning skills (boy thats a sore one), to this recent PI customs office, all wasted by the latest "improvement". So you gave me back the learning skills I "wasted" back then. That didn't compensate me for the time I spent making sure I was learning the right thing, in the right sequence, at the right time to make it the best possible. My head goes back to the "P6" rule (Prior Planning Prevents **** Poor Performance)
Its very apparent that CCP wants everybody in nul sec in a corp. I'm flabbergasted to determine why. Eve was originally that every player could do whatever they wanted, either solo, as a group or as a corp, in Nul Sec or high sec. It was their choice.
Now I'm seeing more and more indications that Eve thinks EVERYBODY plays in a corp, everybody should go to Nul Sec and everybody should blindly accept whatever silliness comes out next. (I'm still wondering if there's a single player flying the over-hyped, and largely useless Echelon).
I remember years ago Eve gave everybody snowballs and snowball launchers....at least that was a bit of silliness that was fun.
There've been lots of comments about "doubling export fees" versus "100x export fees"....in either case, why did CCP let players spend hundreds of hours planning, replanning, reorganizing, reoptimizing their PI operations only to have the high sec operations become mostly useless? Just a few minutes ago, the taxes I paid exporting raw materials just made refining them (or doing anything else with them) a loosing operation.
I'm pounding my head on the desk trying to figure out why I spent so much effort making PI work right (the dammed production line was hard enough to figure out).
If you're going to include a dammed feature, think it through before you waste everybody's time by changing it. If you make the dammed feature.....stick with it! |
Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:48:00 -
[490] - Quote
Nekopyat wrote:Which conflicts horribly with the original stated idea that PI was supposed to be a low barrier thing that any new player can jump into and make a profit...
Now, unless you have a gang of players in low/null, it is a waste of ISK.
We have two mutually exclusive elements here....
The tax is your only tangible expense for extraction/production once the colony is set up, so as long as you're selling for more than the tax the only thing you're potentially 'wasting' is your time. |
|
Xtover
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:48:00 -
[491] - Quote
SojournerRover wrote:Go to Null, or a Wormhole. Set whatever taxes you want and defend your property. This gives corporations more power. You figure it out.
Stop being a HS sec crying machine!
Rover (REDRUM) empty quoting. |
Long John Silver
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:52:00 -
[492] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote: stuff... So we end up with a situation where the biggest blob around can manufacture PI items for nothing and the small independent players/corps are screwed... more stuff.
Exactly.
Interesting thing is, prices in my region have already risen enough to offset the extra custom charges, so its not the PI bunnies who are losing out, its the end product users.
Lowsec POCO ownership aint gonna work, just too many griefers out there shooting for tears.
The only winners out of this revision are going to be those who own lots of nullsec in which to run a safe POCO infrastructure... oh look, that wouldn't be those big boys with a disproportionte influence in this game... would it?
*sigh*
One day, CCP will wake up to the fact that the bulk of their income comes from the relatively silent majority of players who are engaged in 'small enterprises', and start throwing us some fish too. Long John Silver | Pirate Alt-áand Forum Troll. |
Cobokk
Aristokratia
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:55:00 -
[493] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
You own this owns
That does not even makes sense you moron! About as much sense as changing the game mechanics so drastically in the midst of the game. PI is a F#^&@ S&*$&* Work and CCP made it consume way more time. Dont have the time to make a great arguement as it won't help change the opinionated mind that control the game already but do need to point out -
It is a sandbox? And the players control the destiny. Then why the F&$%# is CCP making so many changes to pre-established mechanics?
|
Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:56:00 -
[494] - Quote
Long John Silver wrote:One day, CCP will wake up to the fact that the bulk of their income comes from the relatively silent majority of players who are engaged in 'small enterprises', and start throwing us some fish too.
What do you think the whole PI system is?
It has always been, and continues to be, a great way to make money for 'small enterprise' people. |
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:58:00 -
[495] - Quote
Dalketh wrote:1) CCP getting heat over a controversial change forced on players 2) CCP Alts - errmmm - 'people who have never posted before' show support for CCP 3) CCP not that clever Calorn Marthor wrote:Thanks CCP, that was actually a good change! (although initially propagated by a Goon ) I cried out very loud when I saw the new taxes. But thinking twice, POCOs would perfectly make NO sense with the old tax base. I already had my plans to completely ignore them, now I want to others to operate them. :-D And yes: PI-people will earn less. But, why should any toon with just 2m SP be able to pay for the account with PLEXes? (working only like 3 hours a month) PI profits were ridiculously high, everyone has to admit that. However, the change has some implications: Will PI move to wormholes? POCOs can be defended much easier there, low-class WHs have planets as rich as in nullsec and they are just one hop away from empire... Shouldn't the ressource distribution somehow be related to the wormhole class? (yes, it's a bit late for a change...)
Hey, I am NO CCP alt. !!! 11
And please... Think about it again! A POCO costs like 150m ISK Try to figure out how long it would have taken to get those 150m back with the old taxes. The answer is: years. (unless you have dozens of colonies on the same planet)
Maybe now there will be a new business: POCO holder. Any strong Lowsec or NullSec entity that is close to HighSec can operate and defend these things. PI-toons from HighSec will come there and pay taxes. 100% afk money. You just have to set an attractive tax rate and defend the POCO. |
Jita Alt666
605
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 19:59:00 -
[496] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:
Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.
Smaller Corps - Yes Solo Players - No
Eve is multiplayer
|
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:02:00 -
[497] - Quote
Remember: CCP has an agenda called DUST 514. Planetary Interaction is a significant part of that agenda and whatever changes CCP institutes are [theoretically] intended to increase DUST's financial success.
Stated another way, PI design changes are intended to benefit CCP's RL bottom line down the road. Anything else is irrelevant to CCP's business interests.
As I have written before, CCP did an excellent job engineering EVE subscribers' dependency upon PI materials. Now we must assess if we want to be part of CCP's grand plan to integrate EVE and DUST where the sandbox becomes less free-for-all and far more scripted by CCP's business model and revenue requirements. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Jita Alt666
605
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:02:00 -
[498] - Quote
Dalketh wrote: 1) CCP getting heat over a controversial change forced on players 2) CCP Alts - errmmm - 'people who have never posted before' show support for CCP 3) CCP not that clever
1) Dalketh gets hot over a controversial change 2) Dalketh believes everyone who does not support his world view is paid to think they way they do 3) Dalketh not that clever |
Long John Silver
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
19
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:04:00 -
[499] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:Long John Silver wrote:One day, CCP will wake up to the fact that the bulk of their income comes from the relatively silent majority of players who are engaged in 'small enterprises', and start throwing us some fish too. What do you think the whole PI system is? It has always been, and continues to be, a great way to make money for 'small enterprise' people.
Yes, it WAS. And yes, we'll still be able to make a bit of isk out of it, but not as much as you guys now. Cos now it's gonna be yet another isk making machine for null alliances like you Goonies who are the only ones who will be able to make POCO work profitably: ie: undercutting everyone else. Long John Silver | Pirate Alt-áand Forum Troll. |
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:11:00 -
[500] - Quote
Organic wrote: There've been lots of comments about "doubling export fees" versus "100x export fees"....in either case, why did CCP let players spend hundreds of hours planning, replanning, reorganizing, reoptimizing their PI operations only to have the high sec operations become mostly useless? Just a few minutes ago, the taxes I paid exporting raw materials just made refining them (or doing anything else with them) a loosing operation.
I'm pounding my head on the desk trying to figure out why I spent so much effort making PI work right (the dammed production line was hard enough to figure out).
Well. I COULD post my layout that does generate a lot of profit (15% less than before the tax change, but 85% of a hell lot is still a lot). But... I will not. It's not that clever since everyone will copy it and throw me out of the market. But if you are so desperate you think about quitting EVE, you may contact me ingame. If you pay me some ISKies, I'll teach you how you can still get rich with PI (15% less rich, but still rich).
Organic wrote: If you're going to include a dammed feature, think it through before you waste everybody's time by changing it. If you make the dammed feature.....stick with it!
Does that include undoing all the balance changes that came with Crucible?
|
|
Rek Esket
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:11:00 -
[501] - Quote
Long John Silver wrote:Rek Esket wrote:Long John Silver wrote:One day, CCP will wake up to the fact that the bulk of their income comes from the relatively silent majority of players who are engaged in 'small enterprises', and start throwing us some fish too. What do you think the whole PI system is? It has always been, and continues to be, a great way to make money for 'small enterprise' people. Yes, it WAS. And yes, we'll still be able to make a bit of isk out of it, but not as much as you guys now. Cos now it's gonna be yet another isk making machine for null alliances like you Goonies who are the only ones who will be able to make POCO work profitably: ie: undercutting everyone else.
It's hardly worth the time and effort to produce in nullsec and export to Jita, which by itself has its own isk investment, if I'm just going to price under your production cost.
I'll personally stick to high volume markets and just match your prices. |
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:12:00 -
[502] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:Long John Silver wrote:One day, CCP will wake up to the fact that the bulk of their income comes from the relatively silent majority of players who are engaged in 'small enterprises', and start throwing us some fish too. What do you think the whole PI system is?
Think you meant to use the word 'WAS' there sparky. |
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:19:00 -
[503] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote:So basically you haven't altered your plans from the first dev blog when that **** Dev said that us "little guys" should just use Hi sec planets!
The high tax rates have nothing to do with profit margins, the profit margins will remain the same, it will be a % of the cost of production the same as it is now you ****
The tax rates in 0.0 and low sec are designed to **** off the larger corps and alliances who can afford to install and protect a POCO, so they blow up the high tax interbus one and install their own.
Obviously they will charge themselves nothing and anybody else will be charged whatever they think best, i would imagine same as it is at interbus, any higher and ppl will go elsewhere and there is no point charging less.
So we end up with a situation where the biggest blob around can manufacture PI items for nothing and the small independent players/corps are screwed.
I do.......erm...... did PI in 0.0 NPC space, and think after all the hassle that entails i had the same right to the resources as anybody else in those systems, it seems you at CCP think different.
Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.
Scarlet ninja, I really like your name, but your argument there is completely pointless. They are not denying you access to the feature, they are just stopping you from making a 99% profit with no risk.
And as far as features that you do not have access to as a single player, sovereignty(it requires an alliance to hold.), Player owned station, pos and much more. All of these require corporation or alliance. Now you could be like some players who were recently evicted from Providence. And have your own corporation and alliance. Containing just you. But good luck not being pushed out. CCP is not denying you access to these features, other players are. This game is PVP/risk versus reward based. If you don't like it find a new game. Otherwise join the fun and move out from under the skirt of Concord.
That brings me to another point. Concord is a feature that only exists in high sec. {Sarcastic} That's not fair, I want to be able to pay Concord to defend my sov it would ensure I never lose it. {/Sarcastic}
|
Peich Prime
1st Airborne Division
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:19:00 -
[504] - Quote
[/quote]
Hey, I am NO CCP alt. !!! 11
And please... Think about it again! A POCO costs like 150m ISK Try to figure out how long it would have taken to get those 150m back with the old taxes. The answer is: years. (unless you have dozens of colonies on the same planet)
Maybe now there will be a new business: POCO holder. Any strong Lowsec or NullSec entity that is close to HighSec can operate and defend these things. PI-toons from HighSec will come there and pay taxes. 100% afk money. You just have to set an attractive tax rate and defend the POCO.[/quote]
Well It seems you're not very good at maths...
A POCO costs 255-275 Million each.
Actual prices from Amarr:
Custom Office gantry : 175M-195M 8x Broadcast Node 3M x 8 = 24 M 8x Recursive Computing Module 2.5M x 8 = 20 M 8x Self-harmonizing Power core 1.87M x8 = 14.96 M 8x Wetware Mainframe 2.5Mx8 = 20 M
1x POCO = 254.96-274.96M
Now say you use 6 planets to produce your goods... 254.96-274.96M x 6 = 1529.76M - 1649.76M
So if you are part of a small corporation you need like 3 month to amortize each one of the POCOS. 18 Month to amortize the whole set. And start to pray NOT to get your POCOs blown apart.
I think this is intended to make more people buy PLEX with real cash rather than using ISK... The PLEX prices rocketing through the roof and the ways to earn ISK going down the flush.... 2 + 2
Well I've just suspended my subscription in my second account. I'm not paying anymore for this. |
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:20:00 -
[505] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:I'm somewhat discouraged to hear the response from Omen through someone besides Omen.
If the idea was to reduce profits, yeah... the new POCOs will get that done. Nothing has been done to address the fundamental problems with the feature, which I'm not surprised about. I've been thinking about it and my problem with it really boils down to this:
Previously, there were many people ninja PI'ing in low-sec. They were able to do this because their CO's were static. After that, it's just about avoiding the pirates. The market has adjusted to the supply available (both in terms of volume of goods demanded/required, and the pricing of said goods). The PI products are integrated into everything in eve these days, besides ships (sort of). This is basically caused by PI goods being used to manufacture and fuel the Player Owned Starbases and sovereignty structures in null sec. Towers are so strongly tied to the price of everything that by increasing the price of PI goods, you are increasing the prices of all goods on the market today (and that's assuming demand doesn't change.) With a new expansion coming out, more players (presumably, based on previous active player counts) will cause a general increase in demand of goods driving prices even higher and exacerbating the problem.
All that being said, my problem is not with the price as determined by the market. Eve's capitalist system ensures that goods sell for what they are worth (in general). By big issue is the availability of PI materials (and correspondingly the volume of produced goods and services). Even in the interim, when stockpiles will be used to supply the needs of Eve (this is also common at the expansion boundaries), this problem will not be apparent. Once the stockpiles are used up, we only have the flow of PI goods from tier 1 producers.
This is the other part of the problem. Because of how PI has been implemented, many of the producers that bring materials into the system are no longer producing or doing so in high-sec to avoid the mess that low-sec will be. This is the volume drop that will cause the corresponding price hikes. Forget the inflation going on with the lack of ISK sinks that I initially thought could cause problems.
TL;DR
The people against this change all have a piece of this explanation for why we're against it. I'm trying to look at the big picture here based on my experience with the Eve player base. This isn't healthy for the game, and if any of this doesn't look familiar to you, dev's, you need to take another hard look at how you're implementing this feature.
Mikron Alexarr, I half agree with you, it is going to drive the prices up substantially. However changes happen. The anomaly nerff had a similar effect. Making it more dangerous and less profitable. In line with what it should've been. Because any alliance with any sort of intelligence network that players within that alliance could just move systems and continue on doing making money. With the change all the systems that could you make you any money were now easily camped by one or two clocky ships, almost 23 seven. It affected a lot of people people complained about it. But ultimately it was important to balance the risk versus reward and make the game better. This change is no different people are rioting because of the import export tax being 17% that is a lot I will agree but it is necessary to balance the game properly. There is absolutely no risk in high sec to your PI. You're protected by Concord, and dust is not yet so there's no way to blow up the planet infrastructure. So explain to me what the risk was more than 98% profit margin. And I will gladly change sides of this argument but I just don't see the risk.
Rip Sword wrote:Doesn't sound logical that a costums office gets a percentage of the value of the PI. To me they are providing a service of taking items to and from the planet for you. This fee should be based on volume M3 of the the Import and export. Going down is easier then going up so going up and charging more makes since. They had no part in working and making the product so taking a percentage of the value is not logical. If you import the PI from another source then your not stealing that planets resources and that planet's CO should not get a cut of the PI's value coming in either.
Are the duties on things you bring into the US from other countries based on their size? no. Are they based on what they are? yes and who decides the amount? the government? in this case the government either CCP or another player Corporation? I don't see your side of the argument please explain?
|
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
423
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:22:00 -
[506] - Quote
The tariffs change nothing except that now you have to pay attention to them instead of just pretending that they don't exist. Items that were still profitable to make before the change, will be profitable to make after the change. People making unprofitable items on factory planets, should stop before they hurt themselves. For factory worlds, smart players will figure out whether it is better to buy P2 to make P3, or buy P1 and turn that into P3 on a single planet. (It usually is, because you skip an import/export tariff on the intermediate result.)
Players who do PI harvest planets producing P1 and P2 are still making ISK, they just have to pay a bit higher tax. But PI prices also went up a bit on speculation, so instead of making 1M ISK/day in hi-sec, they're now able to make closer to 1.5M ISK/day in a hi-sec harvest world. Which will draw others to the well, to setup their own PI harvest colonies, increasing supply, and driving costs back down a bit. Nothing changed for the new player doing PI harvest worlds in hi-sec. Their colonies still pay off on 7-10 days after which they're making that 1M ISK/day (even after paying the tariff).
The people most at risk are the lone-wolf operators who attempt to operate in lo-sec without making connections / friends. But until their planet's CO gets blown up, nothing changes for them except that now they have to include the tariffs in their calculation. Why panic before the CO gets blown up? Unless you were doing PI wrong, you paid for your colony within the first two weeks of planting it.
Most of the w-space folks that I've talked to are looking forward to having a 10% profit margin over what hi-sec players get, and if they can export P3 out of their w-space hole, they'll have a 20-30% market advantage over those who operate solely in hi-sec. In short, they're adapting, taking risks, and will reap the rewards. Good for them.
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:35:00 -
[507] - Quote
Asmodes Reynolds wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:I'm somewhat discouraged to hear the response from Omen through someone besides Omen.
If the idea was to reduce profits, yeah... the new POCOs will get that done. Nothing has been done to address the fundamental problems with the feature, which I'm not surprised about. I've been thinking about it and my problem with it really boils down to this:
Previously, there were many people ninja PI'ing in low-sec. They were able to do this because their CO's were static. After that, it's just about avoiding the pirates. The market has adjusted to the supply available (both in terms of volume of goods demanded/required, and the pricing of said goods). The PI products are integrated into everything in eve these days, besides ships (sort of). This is basically caused by PI goods being used to manufacture and fuel the Player Owned Starbases and sovereignty structures in null sec. Towers are so strongly tied to the price of everything that by increasing the price of PI goods, you are increasing the prices of all goods on the market today (and that's assuming demand doesn't change.) With a new expansion coming out, more players (presumably, based on previous active player counts) will cause a general increase in demand of goods driving prices even higher and exacerbating the problem.
All that being said, my problem is not with the price as determined by the market. Eve's capitalist system ensures that goods sell for what they are worth (in general). By big issue is the availability of PI materials (and correspondingly the volume of produced goods and services). Even in the interim, when stockpiles will be used to supply the needs of Eve (this is also common at the expansion boundaries), this problem will not be apparent. Once the stockpiles are used up, we only have the flow of PI goods from tier 1 producers.
This is the other part of the problem. Because of how PI has been implemented, many of the producers that bring materials into the system are no longer producing or doing so in high-sec to avoid the mess that low-sec will be. This is the volume drop that will cause the corresponding price hikes. Forget the inflation going on with the lack of ISK sinks that I initially thought could cause problems.
TL;DR
The people against this change all have a piece of this explanation for why we're against it. I'm trying to look at the big picture here based on my experience with the Eve player base. This isn't healthy for the game, and if any of this doesn't look familiar to you, dev's, you need to take another hard look at how you're implementing this feature. Mikron Alexarr, I half agree with you, it is going to drive the prices up substantially. However changes happen. The anomaly nerff had a similar effect. Making it more dangerous and less profitable. In line with what it should've been. Because any alliance with any sort of intelligence network that players within that alliance could just move systems and continue on doing making money. With the change all the systems that could you make you any money were now easily camped by one or two clocky ships, almost 23 seven. It affected a lot of people people complained about it. But ultimately it was important to balance the risk versus reward and make the game better. This change is no different people are rioting because of the import export tax being 17% that is a lot I will agree but it is necessary to balance the game properly. There is absolutely no risk in high sec to your PI. You're protected by Concord, and dust is not yet so there's no way to blow up the planet infrastructure. So explain to me what the risk was more than 98% profit margin. And I will gladly change sides of this argument but I just don't see the risk. ...
The risk now has gone through the roof from the lone wolf's point of view in low sec. This will be a balance for high sec and null sec that I can agree should've happened sooner. However, the people doing low sec PI were a substantial part of the supply of the P1's that many people use. This increase is risk will cause producers to leave the market. The only thing I can see that would 'fix' the problem is if just as many producers reentered the market in low-sec. That way, you're not causing a huge imbalance with supply.
The fact is, corporations that can get together to 'do stuff', do not do PI (in general). It's mostly handled by alts. These alts and lone operators specifically will leave production and cause a severe supply shock. My concern is that the market simply will not be able to accommodate demand at a low enough price to not break other dependent industries.
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Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
105
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:38:00 -
[508] - Quote
I'd like a shiny youtube video to help me understand it better plz?
/popcorn |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:40:00 -
[509] - Quote
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:I'd like a shiny youtube video to help me understand it better plz? /popcorn
Damn it, where's my whiteboard when I need it |
millsy4606
Combined Imperial Fleet JIHADASQUAD
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:42:00 -
[510] - Quote
good, leave it as it is! this weekend im smashing pocos and setting up my own, then im gonna flood the market with fuel blocks. Pays to be a pirate in low sec, teach you high sec carebears to actually leave your comfort zone and come play. Isk isnt free and easy and it shouldnt be!
Well done CCP!
high fives all round
o/*\o
|
|
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
123
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:44:00 -
[511] - Quote
Dramaticus wrote:CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
You own this owns
yup, all my fives. |
Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:48:00 -
[512] - Quote
Peich Prime wrote:
Well It seems you're not very good at maths...
A POCO costs 255-275 Million each.
Actual prices from Amarr:
Custom Office gantry : 175M-195M 8x Broadcast Node 3M x 8 = 24 M 8x Recursive Computing Module 2.5M x 8 = 20 M 8x Self-harmonizing Power core 1.87M x8 = 14.96 M 8x Wetware Mainframe 2.5Mx8 = 20 M
1x POCO = 254.96-274.96M
Now say you use 6 planets to produce your goods... 254.96-274.96M x 6 = 1529.76M - 1649.76M
So if you are part of a small corporation you need like 3 month to amortize each one of the POCOS. 18 Month to amortize the whole set. And start to pray NOT to get your POCOs blown apart.
I think this is intended to make more people buy PLEX with real cash rather than using ISK... The PLEX prices rocketing through the roof and the ways to earn ISK going down the flush.... 2 + 2
Well I've just suspended my subscription in my second account. I'm not paying anymore for this.
Oh, seems I used the prices from BEFORE the change. My fault. :-D But anyway...
You must only take the 17% tax into account when you figure out when your POCOs pay off. Not the rest.
And I am really impressed if you somehow generate 250+M with a single colony... I do like 70M per month (after taxes) and consider that good.
No, the solution for POCOs can only be multiple colonies of different players on the same planet.
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:55:00 -
[513] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Our apologies for not being more prompt with this message, the base prices were changed late in the piece after reviewing a lot of feedback. Still, the information is available now and we are happy with the current course so it is in your hands to see what you can do with it.
The good part of this is that there's a better chance than otherwise that CO's that get destroyed will actually be replaced. That was one of my concerns I expressed early on, and it looks like you addressed it -- but opposite the way I would have suggested (make it less expensive and difficult to put up/replace a destroyed CO).
It also gives CO owners a better incentive to allow others to use the planet.
Overall, you've taken the high-risk / maybe-high-reward path. Since we're all just passengers on this universe-ship, I hope your gamble pays off.
One other thing I'd like to mention is that this completely changes the equation for single-planet vs multi-planet production, at least if you don't control the CO. I don't think doing single-planet production is a good thing; there's going to be less interaction. It's a lower-output, but also lower interaction strategy, and it's feasible to just launch your final output to space, removing just about all risk. I don't think this fits with your goals.
It would help some if it were a Value Added Tax, rather than a straight current-value tax. But that by itself wouldn't be enough, nor as strictly defined, even possible. I'd have to think about that some more.
But basically, my opinion remains that while there's a good idea here, you rushed it out, without taking enough time to think it through, manage risk, and communicate with your player base.
I think you could have done a MUCH better job with this, releasing it in the Summer expansion. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
45
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:55:00 -
[514] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:58:00 -
[515] - Quote
It may not have been well communicated but I'd know about the revalued commodities for the pas week, and I was on holiday, barely logging in to eve. These levels of taxation are needed to make pi a viable part of the sov game and many players had been arguing for them for a while. Right now hi-sec producers have lower taxes than anyone using interbus customs Offices. Yo're not getting singled out, everyone is playing by the same rules and that means prices will adjust to a new mean when the supply and demand settle. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 20:58:00 -
[516] - Quote
millsy4606 wrote:good, leave it as it is! this weekend im smashing pocos and setting up my own, then im gonna flood the market with fuel blocks. Pays to be a pirate in low sec, teach you high sec carebears to actually leave your comfort zone and come play. Isk isnt free and easy and it shouldnt be!
Well done CCP!
high fives all round
o/*\o
Have you tried it yet? Have fun with that. Please come back and let us know how many you manage. And how much fun you found it.
Seriously -- I'm both skeptical AND interested in your experience. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:01:00 -
[517] - Quote
Illectroculus Defined wrote:It may not have been well communicated but I'd know about the revalued commodities for the pas week, and I was on holiday, barely logging in to eve. These levels of taxation are needed to make pi a viable part of the sov game and many players had been arguing for them for a while. Right now hi-sec producers have lower taxes than anyone using interbus customs Offices. Yo're not getting singled out, everyone is playing by the same rules and that means prices will adjust to a new mean when the supply and demand settle.
That settling process is going to have some fairly painful collateral damage associated with it. But what can one do? I suppose if CCP is dead set on plowing through with an ill thought-out plan, there's nothing we can say to stop them. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:05:00 -
[518] - Quote
Calorn Marthor wrote: No, the solution for POCOs can only be multiple colonies of different players on the same planet.
I wonder what the average # of colonies per losec planet is now. And what it will be.
My experience is it's around 1.5 or so, but that may be biased by where I've done most of my losec PI, rather far from the security of hisec. It's also absurdly difficulty to observe other player's colonies, especially on large gas planets. It helps to scan for resources and set the settings to turn the entire planet white, but even then, it's a lot of work and you can miss operations and not realize it.
If you want more interaction -- make it easier to actually observe! |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:08:00 -
[519] - Quote
pmchem wrote:Dramaticus wrote:CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
You own this owns yup, all my fives. Does this mean that Goonswarm will be moving to take over after all? Is this enough ISK for you to spend time shooting-at-things-that-don't-shoot-back?
To give your proper due, I do think this probably is an improvement. It's certainly an interesting gamble, at the least. |
millsy4606
Combined Imperial Fleet JIHADASQUAD
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:09:00 -
[520] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:millsy4606 wrote:good, leave it as it is! this weekend im smashing pocos and setting up my own, then im gonna flood the market with fuel blocks. Pays to be a pirate in low sec, teach you high sec carebears to actually leave your comfort zone and come play. Isk isnt free and easy and it shouldnt be!
Well done CCP!
high fives all round
o/*\o
Have you tried it yet? Have fun with that. Please come back and let us know how many you manage. And how much fun you found it. Seriously -- I'm both skeptical AND interested in your experience.
tried which part? fuel block making? or PI?
in PI i run 5 planets all from p1 up to p3, fule blocks not yet, there in the oven for ME, but all parts are in hangar waiting to be made, BP for the poco already have just need to build then make the space (kill dirty interbus ones) good thing about a corp theres people that help attack/defend you didnt think i was gonna do this on my your own did you? |
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:09:00 -
[521] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:Calorn Marthor wrote: No, the solution for POCOs can only be multiple colonies of different players on the same planet.
I wonder what the average # of colonies per losec planet is now. And what it will be. My experience is it's around 1.5 or so, but that may be biased by where I've done most of my losec PI, rather far from the security of hisec. It's also absurdly difficulty to observe other player's colonies, especially on large gas planets. It helps to scan for resources and set the settings to turn the entire planet white, but even then, it's a lot of work and you can miss operations and not realize it. If you want more interaction -- make it easier to actually observe!
+1 to this.
Enhancing the PI interface is sorely needed. I want to be able to drag multiple nodes around so I don't have to move EACH INDIVIDUAL NODE when I really just want to extract from a large area for a specified duration. That's just one example of something that could be done to significantly reduce PI's pain. (Other issues aside) |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:14:00 -
[522] - Quote
millsy4606 wrote:ZaBob wrote:millsy4606 wrote:good, leave it as it is! this weekend im smashing pocos and setting up my own, then im gonna flood the market with fuel blocks. Pays to be a pirate in low sec, teach you high sec carebears to actually leave your comfort zone and come play. Isk isnt free and easy and it shouldnt be!
Well done CCP!
high fives all round
o/*\o
Have you tried it yet? Have fun with that. Please come back and let us know how many you manage. And how much fun you found it. Seriously -- I'm both skeptical AND interested in your experience. tried which part? fuel block making? or PI? in PI i run 5 planets all from p1 up to p3, fule blocks not yet, there in the oven for ME, but all parts are in hangar waiting to be made, BP for the poco already have just need to build then make the space (kill dirty interbus ones) good thing about a corp theres people that help attack/defend you didnt think i was gonna do this on my your own did you?
I'm referring to the smashing the Interbus CO's part of your plan.
And I'd like specifically to hear about your experience doing it as a corp. |
Damian Leon
nul-li-fy RED.OverLord
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:14:00 -
[523] - Quote
Many of you forget this all more to do with taking isk out of the game to curb inflation, than PI itself. Large alliances are going to cash in the biggest, they will now dominate nearly the entire market. With that said, the flow of isk is going to do two things.. its going to evaporate there will be less isk in the system, people will have less isk to buy plex and ships etc. This will drive the prices for ALL items down, an item is only worth something because someone is there to buy it. If there is less money in the system prices will be sold for alot less. Second the isk is going to be moved from smaller corps and alliances towards the bigger alliances, as large alliances control most the space of nullsec, and they will enviably charge those corps/alliances to use their interbus. As if there wasnt already a problem with large alliances selling isk for real money, i image this will too increase. Also if you consider isk to be a form of power, more isk more supercaps more titans, there will be certainly a land grab, the more space you own the more isk your going to create. This will affect market prices.. large wars and conflicts are going to shut down PI in certain areas. I predict highsec PI will become only profitable by producing raw materials, as the teired products will only be profitable in lowsec nullsec or wormhole space. |
Jaggins
Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:19:00 -
[524] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:Calorn Marthor wrote: No, the solution for POCOs can only be multiple colonies of different players on the same planet.
If you want more interaction -- make it easier to actually observe!
This is a great suggestion. There should be a show all installations setting with clear visibility.
|
mkint
419
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:21:00 -
[525] - Quote
Scarlett Ninja wrote: Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.
There is no future in EVE for groups smaller than 2,000 people. That is why EVE will die. I don't know if devs are being bribed with RMT, or they are just incredibly myopic. Either way, I'm not sure I've ever been more convinced that EVE online has an expiration date, and that it's closer than anyone suspected. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:23:00 -
[526] - Quote
Damian Leon wrote:Many of you forget this all more to do with taking isk out of the game to curb inflation, than PI itself. Large alliances are going to cash in the biggest, they will now dominate nearly the entire market. With that said, the flow of isk is going to do two things.. its going to evaporate there will be less isk in the system, people will have less isk to buy plex and ships etc. This will drive the prices for ALL items down, an item is only worth something because someone is there to buy it. If there is less money in the system prices will be sold for alot less. Second the isk is going to be moved from smaller corps and alliances towards the bigger alliances, as large alliances control most the space of nullsec, and they will enviably charge those corps/alliances to use their interbus. As if there wasnt already a problem with large alliances selling isk for real money, i image this will too increase. Also if you consider isk to be a form of power, more isk more supercaps more titans, there will be certainly a land grab, the more space you own the more isk your going to create. This will affect market prices.. large wars and conflicts are going to shut down PI in certain areas. I predict highsec PI will become only profitable by producing raw materials, as the teired products will only be profitable in lowsec nullsec or wormhole space.
Um, restricting supply and adding costs is going to drive prices down?
Only if it produces a major recession to the point where nobody has ISK to buy things anyway. But then producers stop producing, too. People stopping doing stuff isn't good for the long-term health of the game or the company making it.
But I quite agree this is certainly shifting power and ISK further toward large alliances. I don't see that as healthy. I think they really should have made it easier for individuals and small corps to get into the action. I think it would have made for a much more robust economy. Centralization of power makes for instability. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:26:00 -
[527] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:Damian Leon wrote:Many of you forget this all more to do with taking isk out of the game to curb inflation, than PI itself. Large alliances are going to cash in the biggest, they will now dominate nearly the entire market. With that said, the flow of isk is going to do two things.. its going to evaporate there will be less isk in the system, people will have less isk to buy plex and ships etc. This will drive the prices for ALL items down, an item is only worth something because someone is there to buy it. If there is less money in the system prices will be sold for alot less. Second the isk is going to be moved from smaller corps and alliances towards the bigger alliances, as large alliances control most the space of nullsec, and they will enviably charge those corps/alliances to use their interbus. As if there wasnt already a problem with large alliances selling isk for real money, i image this will too increase. Also if you consider isk to be a form of power, more isk more supercaps more titans, there will be certainly a land grab, the more space you own the more isk your going to create. This will affect market prices.. large wars and conflicts are going to shut down PI in certain areas. I predict highsec PI will become only profitable by producing raw materials, as the teired products will only be profitable in lowsec nullsec or wormhole space. Um, restricting supply and adding costs is going to drive prices down? Only if it produces a major recession to the point where nobody has ISK to buy things anyway. But then producers stop producing, too. People stopping doing stuff isn't good for the long-term health of the game or the company making it. But I quite agree this is certainly shifting power and ISK further toward large alliances. I don't see that as healthy. I think they really should have made it easier for individuals and small corps to get into the action. I think it would have made for a much more robust economy. Centralization of power makes for instability.
See my post about my main beef with POCOs... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=448780#post448780
I think that'll get you there ^ |
millsy4606
Combined Imperial Fleet JIHADASQUAD
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:27:00 -
[528] - Quote
ill fraps it, stick it on you tube |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
291
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:35:00 -
[529] - Quote
mkint wrote:Scarlett Ninja wrote: Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.
There is no future in EVE for groups smaller than 2,000 people. That is why EVE will die. I don't know if devs are being bribed with RMT, or they are just incredibly myopic. Either way, I'm not sure I've ever been more convinced that EVE online has an expiration date, and that it's closer than anyone suspected.
I think i speak for us all when i say i can't wait for you to leave.
|
Tora Oni
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
43
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:36:00 -
[530] - Quote
How does getting tax up to 17%, people killing the custom office, building poco, setting it to 0% tax help balance the PI ? I probably need the same stuff CCP is smoking. |
|
Madlof Chev
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:43:00 -
[531] - Quote
WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE. Just deal with your stupid problems and get on with it. Fly some spaceships instead or something, sheesh. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:49:00 -
[532] - Quote
Madlof Chev wrote:WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE. Just deal with your stupid problems and get on with it. Fly some spaceships instead or something, sheesh.
That's just Test Alliance asking us to please ignore that they're being handed all the marbles, right?
Is whining about people whining the only reason you've been reading this thread? |
Desparo
Roid Ravagers Unitary Enterprises
9
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 21:50:00 -
[533] - Quote
Okay I think what the problem here is (at least what it is for me) is that you didn't properly communicate the exact changes being made to the taxes.
What you ment to say was that taxes will become a percentage of the value of items being imported and exported.
What you actually said was "CONCORD who will, in turn, charge doubled import and export taxes"
I can understand that this new initiative to communicate more with players takes some practice but you have to realize that the initiative needs to be split into 2 parts.
1) Communicate more. 2) Communicate better and more precisely.
This time you guys didn't follow part 2 all that well.
Bad commincation aside I don't object to the changes themselves. It does make more sense if your trying to get corporations to take over customs offices. And when people pay more in taxes they'll just pass that onto the buyers anyways.
|
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
22
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:03:00 -
[534] - Quote
Organic wrote: There've been lots of comments about "doubling export fees" versus "100x export fees"....in either case, why did CCP let players spend hundreds of hours planning, replanning, reorganizing, reoptimizing their PI operations only to have the high sec operations become mostly useless? Just a few minutes ago, the taxes I paid exporting raw materials just made refining them (or doing anything else with them) a loosing operation.
I'm pounding my head on the desk trying to figure out why I spent so much effort making PI work right (the dammed production line was hard enough to figure out).
So you're actually losing money on your PI now?
Let me guess you were running some factory planet system where you bought materials, shipped them to the planet and then ship the finished product to sell on the market at a profit, and you didn't figure the new tax rates into your calculations. I bet you bought new stuff in the last week, when you could have at least known about the new taxes if you'd been keeping up with the public discourse.
So, you'll be able to produce a pile of planet goo that now costs more than the current market prices. What do you do? You can sell them at a loss, or , you can hold onto them, like a lot of other people. There'll be a bunch of people not selling their stuff at a loss and when supply drops and demand stays the same then prices will rise towards their new equilibrium. I seriously doubt that aliiances will be producing enough high end PI stuff to supply the whole market, so the equilibrium will move to where it's profitable for the hi-sec players.
I on the other hand have been paying a lot of attention and knew when to invest my isk, and II'll be making a very healthy return on my investment. It's how things work in markets, the money doesn't appear magically from anywhere, you get it from other players who are out shooting rats and running missions. |
JediRobin
Globaltech Industries Sanctuary Pact
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:04:00 -
[535] - Quote
I think the new tax rates suck big time.
Bring back the old rate.
What would happen to eve if we all just stop making pi.
Yes the prices will go up, and change the economy.
Maybe we should all do that.
Then we can afford to do pi again. |
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
58
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:16:00 -
[536] - Quote
shea ashler wrote: if i understand this rightly then the tax can only do one thing ant that is incease... because "By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value" when the tax goes up the price on the product goes up.. with this model the tax will then increase again or...?
I have no words... |
Dynamix Boon
Aliastra Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:16:00 -
[537] - Quote
While I agree with the spirit of the change, I don't think this change is going to have the effect intended.
I hope the market rebalances to keep small scale high sec PI still worth while. The modest passive income was very welcome. I also think it was a nice way to allow new players to make some pocket money without the mission running grind.
Rather than looking at risk/reward I to tend to look at the opportunity cost of PVP.
When looking at the opportunity cost of doing something in Eve, time is my most important factor. So if I lose a Taranis on a low sec roam with Funky Bacon, the cost is low if I can recover the ISK from the passive income with PI. If margins from PI become so low that I have to mission run (time intensive) to make up the ISK, the opportunity cost becomes much higher, making PVP less desirable. Less PVP is bad.
I still think player owned CO's are a good idea, but I think small scale PI should be viable. I fear this change may make PI only worthwhile for large player organisations with already massive income streams. |
ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group The Veerhouven Group
37
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:18:00 -
[538] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
oh the tears, this is so good, please post more
As I said, it's no big deal. You'll have to look somewhere else for tears.
Location: Currently circling the toilet bowl that is Eve.
Member of the 6%ers. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:20:00 -
[539] - Quote
Dynamix Boon wrote:While I agree with the spirit of the change, I don't think this change is going to have the effect intended. I hope the market rebalances to keep small scale high sec PI still worth while. The modest passive income was very welcome. I also think it was a nice way to allow new players to make some pocket money without the mission running grind. Rather than looking at risk/reward I to tend to look at the opportunity cost of PVP. When looking at the opportunity cost of doing something in Eve, time is my most important factor. So if I lose a Taranis on a low sec roam with Funky Bacon, the cost is low if I can recover the ISK from the passive income with PI. If margins from PI become so low that I have to mission run (time intensive) to make up the ISK, the opportunity cost becomes much higher, making PVP less desirable. Less PVP is bad. I still think player owned CO's are a good idea, but I think small scale PI should be viable. I fear this change may make PI only worthwhile for large player organisations with already massive income streams.
We're using a tag "/signed for removal" to express a desire to remove POCO's in their current form.
|
Captain Evenwel
StoneCutterz Shotgun Weddings
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:20:00 -
[540] - Quote
So first we're not getting enough information, then it's too ambiguous, now we're to lazy to actually read the forums or use the search option to get an answer? Damn, I don't know how to win this one.
What I am very much curious to hear about is what Quote:we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden is supposed to indicate for the future of planets... :D |
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:27:00 -
[541] - Quote
Captain Evenwel wrote:So first we're not getting enough information, then it's too ambiguous, now we're to lazy to actually read the forums or use the search option to get an answer? Damn, I don't know how to win this one. What I am very much curious to hear about is what Quote:we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden is supposed to indicate for the future of planets... :D
Hint: You can't. I've been fighting this implementation since it was announced. At each stage they simply ignore more. |
Pipip Mendicant
Kindred of Honor PURgE Alliance
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:31:00 -
[542] - Quote
If you want to speed up adoption of POCOs, you should really look into a way of allowing a POCO owner to impact the availability of resources on a planet. If I can only attract a couple of people to my planet, it's hardly worth it to stand up an office, even at the current tax rates. Lower taxes aren't the sexiest reason to move PI operations to another planet. Also, if I somehow attracted a large number of people, it actually devalues the planet, as resources get depleted more quickly.
If I can upgrade the planet, just as someone with Sov can upgrade a system, I have another way of attracting people to it. If someone does a planetary scan and sees that the planet has huge patches of white, they're much more likely to drop an office on it. It also keeps the value of the planet higher for longer as more people flock to it. There are plenty of logical ways to implement this - deploy ground survey teams, launch high res satellites, send demolitions drones, etc.
As a command center owner, I'd also be much more likely to want mercs to attack my neighbors if the planet got too crowded (Dust 514). And as a POCO owner, I'd want to wipe out command centers as well, if some ninja corp was trying to get away with launch containers to avoid my POCO.
Oh, and this would need to apply to lowsec as well as null. |
Ardamalis
Vanguard Corp Bounty Hunters
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:32:00 -
[543] - Quote
Excellent change. CCP.
Stay the course. Its natural that people whose incomes are hit will be a bit mad. Folks everywhere don't tend to take a drop in profits very well but its necessary for the health of the game. |
Kaori Ohara
Ohsawa Inc
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:32:00 -
[544] - Quote
This new tax rate will be the death of all the small industrialist corp !!!
Why ?
because once again, you are favorising the big entities of Eve, such as alliances or corps in alliances. They will continue to make isk very easily, since it (the new tax rate), will not interfere in their ISK making process because they can set the tax to 0%. However, all the young industrialist corps or avatars who are trying to start something (a small business) can't do anything about it, other than pay ridicoulously high taxes or die.
because again, in my case, i try to run a medium POS in low sec, the only reaction i can make is not cost efficiency, but i produce a little part of the POS fuel i need and this make, i can save around 10-20M/month on the fuel cost. so it make my POS can run in the black ( a very little but it's something and i play) but these new taxes will raise prices of fuel and therefore the cost of operation will also increase thus combine with the customs taxes, this results in the arrest of my POS because it becomes a money pit, and death I hope to start a small industry production vessel or other ...
again because in hight sec space you don't have the same harvest rate than in low sec or in 0.0, so big entities still have no problem for their lot of isk making against risk, while small corporations will have no risk, ok, but will cost more despite lower yields.
Now what can I do against that? nothing ? not really, I can go suck some dicks to expect to have a system that I'll have to rent a large entity, but of course as I am a small corporation, I could not pay .. . and if I can not do anything except die in my corner. which also means the end of my subscription to eve, I think ... execpt... |
Kaori Ohara
Ohsawa Inc
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:36:00 -
[545] - Quote
mis click |
IbanezLaney
ldiocracy RED.Legion
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:46:00 -
[546] - Quote
This is a good change. Gives people more to fight over.
I guess they would get a similar tear free result had they left the tax rate alone and just ninja patched high sec planets to slowly become less productive over a month or two. They would just think everyone had depleted the high sec planets. Can't spell crap without rap. |
XT 0023
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:52:00 -
[547] - Quote
I have 4 accounts, all fully funded by PI. My math proves that this is no longer possible.. goodbye 3/4 accounts, I will not be renewing them once their time runs out. Thanks CCP, oh and btw.. **** you. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
56
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 22:55:00 -
[548] - Quote
XT 0023 wrote:I have 4 accounts, all fully funded by PI. My math proves that this is no longer possible.. goodbye 3/4 accounts, I will not be renewing them once their time runs out. Thanks CCP, oh and btw.. **** you.
This is the revolt and supply drop I was talking about. We are going to end up with a big gap in P1s. Without further incentivising low-sec, we're going to have some serious supply issues. High sec doesn't have near the resources to sustain the current demand. |
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 23:01:00 -
[549] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
My lacking of paying you is also deliberate. Enjoy the fallout of the this incredibly ill conceived feature. |
Gooba Budd
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.01 23:18:00 -
[550] - Quote
I support this change. It adds much more complexity and nuance to an otherwise risk-free, boring activity. PI was easy money for far too long and the ability to fight over access to planets fits in with the theme of the game. The POCO system has a low barrier of entry and is a way to encourage highsec players to venture into lowsec and experience the life of nullsec dwellers who have to deal with structure mechanics everyday. Don't let all of the whiners and complainers get their way. |
|
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:00:00 -
[551] - Quote
To suggest that this will negatively impact the economy of eve would be like suggesting that flying a noob ship into a pirate choke point solo is a bad idea or that CCP has no real clue about how the game works outside nullsec. |
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:19:00 -
[552] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:To suggest that this will negatively impact the economy of eve would be like suggesting that flying a noob ship into a pirate choke point solo is a bad idea or that CCP has no real clue about how the game works outside nullsec.
I believe you've just proven that you have no understanding of economics, pirates or nullsec.
Please, leave the PI market in disgust, it will only serve to prove the effectiveness of my PI investments.
(BTW, noobships flying through pirate haven - sounds like a mission for Skye) |
Doukyou
Moon Faced Assassins of Joy Inc In Umbra Mortis
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:19:00 -
[553] - Quote
Got to ask do I get a kiss before I get F-u-c-k-e-d in the A-z-z?
Lube would be Nice.
What Idiot thought up the idea of Doubling the Taxes on HS customs offices?
And what idiot made it more than double?
Did you fire them? IF not WILL YOU FIRE THEM?
Out of a ballista would be appropriate. I can set up ***** covered barbed spikes in the landing zone so we can get a pleasant squishing sound when they land.
I do like the idea of player owned custom offices, but don't Sodomizing everyone in high sec by making it impossible to afford fueling our POS's. And we can't rely on Null sec to supply our fuel, because they will constantly be loosing their POCO's.
Thank you for listening,
The Director of Evil,
Doukyou |
Misstress Zain
Lost Soul Society Collective Soul
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:31:00 -
[554] - Quote
Personally I see no big deal here. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to make isk out the yin yang with PI if your willing to put a little patiennce into it. As for my experience with the chages, in less that 24 hours me and my corp mate had all six interbus sites destroyed, new corp owned ones put up to cut taxes out all together in our WH.
As for the prices, well I am loving how they have jumped over 4k per unit on the stuff I produce over night. So please yes quit PI throw in the towell, and sit on the fourms and whine while I grow rich in EvE. Heaven forbid you do anything constructive like make your own centers in low sec, talk with similar corps about building and protecting some to use in low sec, NPC null, WH etc. I always forget this is EvE online instead of actually geting off your rear to work around a problem or go around it... lets just flood the forum with tears as usual.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
419
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:39:00 -
[555] - Quote
Excellent.
Necessary.
Thank you. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1733
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:42:00 -
[556] - Quote
Kaori Ohara wrote: because again, in my case, i try to run a medium POS in low sec, the only reaction i can make is not cost efficiency, but i produce a little part of the POS fuel i need and this make, i can save around 10-20M/month on the fuel cost. so it make my POS can run in the black ( a very little but it's something and i play) but these new taxes will raise prices of fuel and therefore the cost of operation will also increase thus combine with the customs taxes, this results in the arrest of my POS because it becomes a money pit, and death of my hope to start a small industry production vessel or other ...
if your pos only runs in the black because you mine your own fuel its losing money you idiot
if you're going to make economic forecasts you should avoid making it clear you're that stupendously dumb |
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:42:00 -
[557] - Quote
Misstress Zain wrote:So please yes quit PI throw in the towel, and sit on the forums and whine while I grow rich in EvE. Heaven forbid you do anything constructive like make your own centers in low sec, talk with similar corps about building and protecting some to use in low sec, NPC null, WH etc. I always forget this is EvE online instead of actually getting off your rear to work around a problem or go around it... lets just flood the forum with tears as usual.
The issue with this is I don't want to go to non-empire space unless I want. The change is a blatant move by CCP to do three things simultaneously: 1.) Punish empire dwellers 2.) Punish WH dwellers 3.) Make life easier on null sec alliances
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
419
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:51:00 -
[558] - Quote
Jim Hooknose wrote:Misstress Zain wrote:So please yes quit PI throw in the towel, and sit on the forums and whine while I grow rich in EvE. Heaven forbid you do anything constructive like make your own centers in low sec, talk with similar corps about building and protecting some to use in low sec, NPC null, WH etc. I always forget this is EvE online instead of actually getting off your rear to work around a problem or go around it... lets just flood the forum with tears as usual. The issue with this is I don't want to go to non-empire space unless I want do it. I am not a fan of being forced into a playstyle that I don't want to play. It's akin to Blizzard suddenly making all rogues (or thieves, whatever they are called) warriors without their consent. The change is a blatant move by CCP to do three things simultaneously: 1.) Punish empire dwellers 2.) Punish WH dwellers 3.) Make life easier on null sec alliances
You do realize that once the prices stop fluctuating and the market has adjusted to the new tax rate, that you will be making at least as much profit as you did before... with the option to make a much higher profit margin if you ever decide "you want" to venture into Low Sec. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 00:55:00 -
[559] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:You do realize that once the prices stop fluctuating and the market has adjusted to the new tax rate, that you will be making at least as much profit as you did before... with the option to make a much higher profit margin if you ever decide "you want" to venture into Low Sec.
The empire PI market will have to compete with untaxed null/low sec players who also get better yield from their planets. High sec PI's profit will tumble into nothing because they have effectively given null sec a monopoly on PI.
I expected PI to be a viable career in Eve. Not a sub-micro-career. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
419
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:00:00 -
[560] - Quote
Jim Hooknose wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:You do realize that once the prices stop fluctuating and the market has adjusted to the new tax rate, that you will be making at least as much profit as you did before... with the option to make a much higher profit margin if you ever decide "you want" to venture into Low Sec. The empire PI market will have to compete with untaxed null/low sec players who also get better yield from their planets. High sec PI's profit will tumble into nothing because they have effectively given null sec a monopoly on PI. I expected PI to be a viable career in Eve. Not a sub-micro-career.
Amazingly we heard very similar arguments when PI was first introduced to take over from NPC supplies, that Null Sec having vastly superior resources at their disposal would dominate the market, that nobody would do PI in Low sec because it was too dangerous.
Predictably, it was blind unreasoning panic talking.
Same old, same old... To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
|
Ahrman Vanaheim
Chimaera Combine Novus Dominatum
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:09:00 -
[561] - Quote
Perhaps fortunately my little lowsec PI empire was starting to bore me senseless to the point of giving it up - so the tax issue is almost a relief in that at least the short term I won't be doing any more PI.
Regardless, those complaining, probably don't understand that this is a mess that CCP can't back down from. They aren't going to give up their only, rather tenuous, link for EVE to DUST and possibly the millions invested in that game by reverting to the old system, despite enraging large numbers of High/Low/WH PI industrialists. DUST with no EVE link, though possible, would be pointless. We can only hope at this stage that DUST isn't a complete flop. I for one am interested in at least trying it.
FWIW, quick calculations on my lowsec PI showed that the new tax regime, and base prices (I only exported one batch from a planet prior to saying screw it) now sucks up 33% of T1 materials profit. L4's generally seem to be more engaging, less effort and more profit than PI from 15 planets. Possibly more time consuming, however PI was becoming a misery much like keeping track of POS fuel timers used to be. My hoarded POS fuel materials on the other hand when prices are spiked nicely, will keep me in skill books and ships for years to come, and not running a POS will be nice for those 'downtime' periods we all have from time to time.
Good Luck CCP, I just hope this calculated gamble works and you don't lose more from this than you gain from DUST. |
Etherimos
Winged Victory Corporation Intrepid Crossing
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:10:00 -
[562] - Quote
Tell you what, you can charge whatever stupid tax rate you want for the Interbus etc CO's. Give me a ship I can train up to fly to the surface to bring the stuff off myself.
This means new skills, new ships AND will give those DUST weasels something else to shoot the heck out of if/when CCP actually gets their **** together and brings it to market! |
Palicima
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:13:00 -
[563] - Quote
way to go CCP as always you make things miserable by thinking |
Jita Alt666
607
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:22:00 -
[564] - Quote
mkint wrote:Scarlett Ninja wrote: Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.
There is no future in EVE for groups smaller than 2,000 people. That is why EVE will die. I don't know if devs are being bribed with RMT, or they are just incredibly myopic. Either way, I'm not sure I've ever been more convinced that EVE online has an expiration date, and that it's closer than anyone suspected.
myopia is great within the.
150-200 players can do wonders in this game.
|
LB Wrench
Ordo Eventus Inception Alliance
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:25:00 -
[565] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Quote: You do realize that once the prices stop fluctuating and the market has adjusted to the new tax rate, that you will be making at least as much profit as you did before... with the option to make a much higher profit margin if you ever decide "you want" to venture into Low Sec.
And you do realise that not many ppl has the isk to put up 6 POCO's, with even less HPs then interbus, just to watch them blow, next time someone drops by and are bored... ?
I dont mind Low Sec.. i go there regularly.. i dont mind PI, or the risk.. i do mind to put up a 120 million investment on each planet i may choose to do PI (720 million for 6), just to have it blown up 2 days later.. and if im in luck, they may even take out all 6.. how long do you think you have any isk, if ure replacing POCOs on daily status? - or are PI only for the rich.. ups.. i forgot.. it is.. - the rich alliances, and we wouldnt have anything change that, now would we..
"Get defense fleets" - sure.. i just happen to know someone with 30 supercaps that wont mind dropping in, each time a Pirate fleet are bored.. and off course you can fully trust that should you arrange a deal with the local pirate corp they will honor it, and leave youre POCO alone.. riight.. i also sell green teddybears made out of moon-cheese.. want one?
POCO's dont belong in Low Sec - period. Its not about risk, its about protecting ure investment. Only a idiot puts up ressources for 720 million every now and then, to gain the few millions you can gain daily pr planet. Even with risen prises, its a very long term return.. And the second someone blows it up - well.. guess what.. youre expenses just went through the roof.. Risk vs reward.. sure... in this case.. epic fail. There is a 100% risk, and a 1% reward...
if Low/Null sec'ers really want more ppl to drop into LS/NS, and come/stay there.. then this is a perfect moment to show that Low/Null sec really are a place worth it... and that you can go such places without the risk/or a smaller risk of getting blown up, and more importently - that they leave URE investment alone. (preferly without you having to sell youre mother to afford it).
The protests against the POCO in LS isnt about risk vs reward.. while the taxes are a b*tch.. in time, you may be able to work youre PI to a level where its covered... but what you CANT work in, over time is the continious loss of POCO's... Dont ask people to go in and sacrifice themself just to feed you a KM, then complain when they wont come and stay in ure space... give a little.. get a little..
- LB |
Gasm
Colossus Enterprises
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:38:00 -
[566] - Quote
CCP: We are deliberately and stubbornly staying stupid
me: ok, that's about what i expected |
Misstress Zain
Lost Soul Society Collective Soul
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:40:00 -
[567] - Quote
Jim Hooknose wrote:Misstress Zain wrote:So please yes quit PI throw in the towel, and sit on the forums and whine while I grow rich in EvE. Heaven forbid you do anything constructive like make your own centers in low sec, talk with similar corps about building and protecting some to use in low sec, NPC null, WH etc. I always forget this is EvE online instead of actually getting off your rear to work around a problem or go around it... lets just flood the forum with tears as usual. The issue with this is I don't want to go to non-empire space unless I want do it. I am not a fan of being forced into a playstyle that I don't want to play. It's akin to Blizzard suddenly making all rogues (or thieves, whatever they are called) warriors without their consent. The change is a blatant move by CCP to do three things simultaneously: 1.) Punish empire dwellers 2.) Punish WH dwellers 3.) Make life easier on null sec alliances
So basically you want to make just as much isk as i do in high sec, where your in relative safety, while I put forth over all the isk to put up my on customs centers, all the while makeing the products in a place that I can be killed or kicked out of any minute. Seems fair and balanced. I bet you also play from Ocuppy Wall Street lol.
Second you arent being forced into another playstyle, you still have centers to use, but you also have the choice to go to other sections of space and make more isk. To modify a line off Spiderman, "With great isk comes great risk."
And thrid this doesnt punish WH dwellers, at least not in my WH we are back to full capacity with our own centers.
Oh and P.S- never make WoW or whatever game that was in EvE again, please |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
419
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:45:00 -
[568] - Quote
Sigh.
Step 1: If you decide you wish to continue to do PI in Low Sec, simply keep doing what you are doing. The Interbus CO is still there. Wait for prices to stabilize. You will still make more money than you would on a similar number of planets in High Sec despite a slightly higher tax rate due to the larger volume available.
Step 2: Keep this up until you are comfortable with the threat level to PI operations in your chosen area. If the Interbus CO gets blown up in short order, keep an eye on if it is replaced and if it is see if it's available for your use at a reasonable rate... if not trash your setup and move on. You have lost nothing but the infrastructure you are currently thinking about trashing anyway.
If your Interbus CO stays up (which is likely) you can then make an educated threat assessment concerning the option of putting up your own. Contrary to popular belief, shooting down structures is not a fun enterprise. In fact is is one of the highest rated items on the "things to try and avoid doing in EVE" list unless you have an eye on that corner of space yourself.
Step 3: Keep track of your now improved income. Pay off your investment in the POCO and continue to earn higher profits than the majority of your competition.
Step 4: If your POCO does get blown up, check your records and see if the venture paid for itself and produced a better profit than a High Sec operation for a comparable period of time.
If it did, and the people that blew up your POCO are not new residents to the area likely to do it again, put up another one.
If it did not, or if the people look like they are new residents, aggressive, and unwilling to work with you then search for a more profitable area.
This really isn't that hard a concept to grasp people. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Kelsi Darr
Orbital Express LTD Ocularis Inferno
4
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:47:00 -
[569] - Quote
Seems like a lot of anger? Me, I quit PI once, I can quit it again. No muss, fuss! |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 01:56:00 -
[570] - Quote
Jim Hooknose wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:You do realize that once the prices stop fluctuating and the market has adjusted to the new tax rate, that you will be making at least as much profit as you did before... with the option to make a much higher profit margin if you ever decide "you want" to venture into Low Sec. The empire PI market will have to compete with untaxed null/low sec players who also get better yield from their planets. High sec PI's profit will tumble into nothing because they have effectively given null sec a monopoly on PI. I expected PI to be a viable career in Eve. Not a sub-micro-career.
Indeed, that's one of my concerns. Since I'm in a WH these days, I expect I'll probably come out ahead in the end. But I spent a lot of time in deep losec doing intensive PI. While I won't make any predictions about how this turns out in losec, I do think it's pretty clear this doesn't do anything to make losec a better place to do PI.
You'll have to compete with hisec on tax rates, and with null/wh groups with no taxes.
If I could launch POCO for myself without leaving my present corp, I'd consider trying to start such a business. But there's a fundamental disconnect here.
There is no marketing channel -- unless you count spam cans at gates as a marketing channel.
Without communication, you can't get competition. Where's the competition on tax rates going to come from? The whole process of scouting for losec planets just got much harder. You have to find the resources, you have to get the tax information and estimate the impact of that, and then compare, over a wider range.
You want to make Eve a more interactive place? Let people bid on ad placements for contract goods and services and employment on the billboards and in stations. Make an in-game news channel, and let people by ads there. Don't make it free -- we don't want another Jita Local -- make it available via competitive bids.
You then have to consider the security aspects. Is this CO likely to vanish from beneath you after you make your investment? Are local pirates going to be looking at you not just as a target of opportunity, but as someone to systematically hunt down and destroy?
I still don't know what info POCOs give to their owners about the customers. CCP Omen hasn't seen fit to tell us. It wasn't available on SiSi to test in advance. But we have to consider the possibility of people using POCOs as bait to lure additional targets, kind of like extra-low prices on market goods. So all that has to be factored into the scouting process as well.
So more work to enter a profession where you're probably going to be at an economic disadvantage from the start?
At this point, I don't think I can continue to encourage people to venture into losec to do PI. |
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:05:00 -
[571] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Sigh. Step 1: If you decide you wish to continue to do PI in Low Sec, simply keep doing what you are doing. The Interbus CO is still there. Wait for prices to stabilize. You will still make more money than you would on a similar number of planets in High Sec despite a slightly higher tax rate due to the larger volume available. Step 2: Keep this up until you are comfortable with the threat level to PI operations in your chosen area. If the Interbus CO gets blown up in short order, keep an eye on if it is replaced and if it is see if it's available for your use at a reasonable rate... if not trash your setup and move on. You have lost nothing but the infrastructure you are currently thinking about trashing anyway. If your Interbus CO stays up (which is likely) you can then make an educated threat assessment concerning the option of putting up your own. Contrary to popular belief, shooting down structures is not a fun enterprise. In fact is is one of the highest rated items on the "things to try and avoid doing in EVE" list unless you have an eye on that corner of space yourself. Step 3: Keep track of your now improved income. Pay off your investment in the POCO and continue to earn higher profits than the majority of your competition. Step 4: If your POCO does get blown up, check your records and see if the venture paid for itself and produced a better profit than a High Sec operation for a comparable period of time. If it did, and the people that blew up your POCO are not new residents to the area likely to do it again, put up another one. If it did not, or if the people look like they are new residents, aggressive, and unwilling to work with you then search for a more profitable area. This really isn't that hard a concept to grasp people.
That's a very nice, clear, well-written statement of the strategy -- if you elect to stay in losec doing PI. It's exactly what I would do; and adjusted for WH life, pretty much what I am going to do.
The concern that I and others have is that a lot of people will look at this and at some point in this process, decide not do PI in losec. They'll decide it's not in their interest.
Its the fallout from thousands of people making these decisions that is the concern. Is it actually possible to get a losec economy going? What will be the impact of removing a lot of the losec PI from the universal economy? What is the impact on new player development and retention?
But perhaps your note will encourage people to try, and perhaps that will help a bit. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
105
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:06:00 -
[572] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi: --- The higher PI taxes are deliberate. We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why. The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk. With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed. By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden. For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeRegards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
CCP Guard mate you need to get CCP Phantom over here - we went through almost 90 pages of posting about the PCO feature... and I thought they had really done a great job of trying to compromise with the community on the change... however:
When 333 units of P2 via a Rocket Launch from the Command Center now costs 1350 ISK PER UNIT - somethings seriously wrong!
It's one thing to raise a tax/tariff on PI via the PCO or Interbus NPC-PCO to incentivise PCO use - but since when did I decide as a pilot that I want to charge myself 1350 ISK per unit to launch from my own Command Center?
What's next - we gonna start charging miners a benchmark rate on each unit of tritanium value for what their strip miners pull in???!!
I'm personally upset that I worked hard to constructively help shape the PCO feature only to get bent over a barrel and screwed this way...
|
Denidil
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
223
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:24:00 -
[573] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi: --- The higher PI taxes are deliberate. We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why. The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk. With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed. By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden. For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeRegards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
sure the new tax rates may be coded to spec, but the spec is wrong. the spec was quite clearly not analyzed by ANYONE WHO KNOWS A DAMN THING ABOUT THE ECONOMY.
MM Bombers, Best Bombers
Remove Drone Poo. Player owned customs offices are one of the worst changes in EVE history.
|
Terminal Entry
New Fnord Industries
15
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:30:00 -
[574] - Quote
Abramul wrote:"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes." http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.aspMind changing this to reflect that it's closer to 100 times the old values for P1 and P2? I'd checked there and the two dev blogs before putting in a petition, and drew the conclusion it was bugged. If anyone's wondering what the tax rates were changed from: P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit +edit: I would suggest that a change be made to make single-planet production easier: allow processors to be grouped so that you can change from one material to another and reroute faster.
I would have expected this sort of thing from the 'old' CCP but I thought the whole point of this expansion was to show that CCP were sorry for being so arrogant in the past and then they pull this. They said they were doubling PI taxes but some how failed to say that there being worked out differently and all they can say is 'working as intended - suck it up!'. This is definitely the 'OLD' CCP talking. Their subscriber numbers must be going up again if they think they can pull this sort of thing. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:37:00 -
[575] - Quote
Etherimos wrote:Tell you what, you can charge whatever stupid tax rate you want for the Interbus etc CO's. Give me a ship I can train up to fly to the surface to bring the stuff off myself.
This means new skills, new ships AND will give those DUST weasels something else to shoot the heck out of if/when CCP actually gets their **** together and brings it to market!
I really like this suggestion. I think it fixes a lot of the issues for the PI customer, and adds a significant degree of richness.
One problem, though, is that it reduces the value of an investment in POCOs. I think for that part to work, we'd need to lower the price on those, or there won't be any POCOs. We'd like a balance where if the tax is too high, it's worth burning the fuel to fly in and out in your planetary hauler. Maybe there's also a time commitment involved.
You want to make CO owners think twice about charging very high taxes. Add in a marketing channel
Maybe make it easier to shoot down, too. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 02:58:00 -
[576] - Quote
Misstress Zain wrote:Personally I see no big deal here. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together should be able to make isk out the yin yang with PI if your willing to put a little patiennce into it. As for my experience with the chages, in less that 24 hours me and my corp mate had all six interbus sites destroyed, new corp owned ones put up to cut taxes out all together in our WH. As for the prices, well I am loving how they have jumped over 4k per unit on the stuff I produce over night. So please yes quit PI throw in the towell, and sit on the fourms and whine while I grow rich in EvE. Heaven forbid you do anything constructive like make your own centers in low sec, talk with similar corps about building and protecting some to use in low sec, NPC null, WH etc. I always forget this is EvE online instead of actually geting off your rear to work around a problem or go around it... lets just flood the forum with tears as usual.
Ah, excellent, the voice of experience. So far the only data point on taking these things down that I've seen is the one that I took down on SiSi.
How did you and your corpmates feel about the experience of shooting down 6 of these in 24 hours? How many pilots, using what equipment? Would you be so eager to do it again, if you got more planets? (My own problem is a bit bigger than yours).
But while your experience is of direct relevance to me, the situation is different in losec. I'd love to see people put together small groups that build and protect them in losec. But I don't think the economic and political situation will lead to that outcome.
You and I are going to do fine with this. |
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:03:00 -
[577] - Quote
Ahrman Vanaheim wrote:Perhaps fortunately my little lowsec PI empire was starting to bore me senseless to the point of giving it up - so the tax issue is almost a relief in that at least the short term I won't be doing any more PI.
Regardless, those complaining, probably don't understand that this is a mess that CCP can't back down from. They aren't going to give up their only, rather tenuous, link for EVE to DUST and possibly the millions invested in that game by reverting to the old system, despite enraging large numbers of High/Low/WH PI industrialists. DUST with no EVE link, though possible, would be pointless. We can only hope at this stage that DUST isn't a complete flop. I for one am interested in at least trying it.
FWIW, quick calculations on my lowsec PI showed that the new tax regime, and base prices (I only exported one batch from a planet prior to saying screw it) now sucks up 33% of T1 materials profit. L4's generally seem to be more engaging, less effort and more profit than PI from 15 planets. Possibly more time consuming, however PI was becoming a misery much like keeping track of POS fuel timers used to be. My hoarded POS fuel materials on the other hand when prices are spiked nicely, will keep me in skill books and ships for years to come, and not running a POS will be nice for those 'downtime' periods we all have from time to time.
Good Luck CCP, I just hope this calculated gamble works and you don't lose more from this than you gain from DUST.
Once again CCP putting their 'other game(s)' before EVE, and so soon after promising not to. I am like most I have talked to about this, we have redone planets several times as CCP keeps 'improving' PI... and it is barely tolerable to maintain. The doubling of tax they stated right up to the second of release was bad enough. THIS? No more PI. Probably one less account also.
|
Sabola Atar
Isk Harvesters
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:07:00 -
[578] - Quote
Ethanole wrote:Still doesn't change the fact that the taxes are ridiculous, you should allow at least 200% tax rates for these to actually mean something, even a 15 or 20% tax rate for interbus CO's won't bother anyone, In fact I don't see anyone spending 1B on a system just to gain 5M isk per month.
Apart from that the changes are quite good, this is gonna make PI a lot more interesting and fun to manage :D
You obviously don't run PI. I'm getting charged 1 to 2 million for each transfer x 5 planets x 7 toons x twice a day. that's more than 52 million a day in taxes. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:13:00 -
[579] - Quote
Denidil wrote: the spec was quite clearly not analyzed by ANYONE WHO KNOWS A DAMN THING ABOUT THE ECONOMY.
I was going to say that I look forward to reading about this in the next Quarterly Economic Newsletter -- and then it struck me, I haven[t seen one since the 2010Q4 one was released back in April.
And CCP Dr.EyjoG hasn't been heard from since August.
I'm a little concerned -- for their sake and ours -- that our developer friends may have been left to sink or swim on their own. |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
29
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:24:00 -
[580] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:And CCP Dr.EyjoG hasn't been heard from since August.
What do you mean? He's been working on his CNR fit.
|
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:29:00 -
[581] - Quote
AkJon Ferguson wrote:ZaBob wrote:And CCP Dr.EyjoG hasn't been heard from since August. What do you mean? He's been working on his CNR fit.
Well, send him back to his desk; he's overdue on 3 quarters of economic reports. This is no time to be testing fail fits. |
Elsa Nietchize
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:30:00 -
[582] - Quote
Oh CCP, you cry about losing a bunch of subs and do a dramatic change of direction for part of your playerbase and then turn around and sh*t on another part. I made decent isk on PI in 0.0 then I moved into hisec and made squat. You've now made PI flat out unprofitable in hisec. Is now really the right time to be making things more difficult for any of your playerbase? Shouldn't every change you make be asked the question "how does this change make our game better for our current and perspective new players?" If I see more layoffs, I'm just going to laugh in your faces. |
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:33:00 -
[583] - Quote
Abramul wrote:"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes." http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.aspMind changing this to reflect that it's closer to 100 times the old values for P1 and P2? I'd checked there and the two dev blogs before putting in a petition, and drew the conclusion it was bugged. If anyone's wondering what the tax rates were changed from: P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit +edit: I would suggest that a change be made to make single-planet production easier: allow processors to be grouped so that you can change from one material to another and reroute faster.
In other numbers, its this: P0: 500%*old P1: 6579%*old P2: 10000%*old P3: 1167%*old P4: 270%*old It'll be even higher at customs offices where the rate is higher than 10%. PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them! |
Garwill
Sudden-Impact Beyond-Repair
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:53:00 -
[584] - Quote
I am sorry, whether you needed to change PI taxation is debatable, but the way you have done this, is rather reprehensible. It's gone from bad to worse to insulting.
1) Changes announced in Dev Blog - change stated as tax doubling among other things - changes controversial and feedback commences. (usual) 2) CCP seems to listen to feedback and a second Dev blog comes out with some changes - still stating tax doubling. 3) People, happy CCP is doing the 'new thing' and listening/compromising seems inline with the 'new ccp' publicly announced mode of operations. Most accept taxes doubling as it doesn't break the bank. 4) Patch notes come out confirming taxes doubling.
Upgrade day and people shocked to find in many cases the tax they have to pay has been multiplied by 100x or more.
5) After multiple confused/angry threads finally on like the 50th page an official response by CCP NULLarbor:
"Our apologies for not being more prompt with this message, the base prices were changed late in the piece after reviewing a lot of feedback. Still, the information is available now and we are happy with the current course so it is in your hands to see what you can do with it."
Lame apology (what feedback were they reviewing that made them do this God knows and they certainly aren't saying) basically back to the bad old-school CCP of 'we are happy so deal with it - the end'. Add to this many people have been told FOR WEEKS no more changes were allowed to all other items.
6) People aren't exactly thrliled with this crap of an explanation and many unaware start filing petitions CERTAIN some bug is at work because we all knew -and was announced repeatedly - taxes were simply doubling right?
Today on Eve news - front page - this:
"We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirthis posmed that the tax rates match the design specifications."
So it matches design specifications? OH WHAT A RELIEF! Well that makes it all OK, and I am not talking just the massive tax increase far beyond what announced right up to launch, but in how it was put in despite all the official blogs and patch notes stating otherwise.
Oh and what in the world does 'confirthis posmed' mean? Seem like a rather rushed announcement to plaster that on your front page. More concerned with cutting down all the petitions rather than why they are happening?
Yes I hate the new tax, but in reality I hate more how you did this and how it's old CCP again. Yes it's just a game but I am morally offended regardless. Am sure there will be some stupid replies about my tears... sorry not crying... am just disappointed. |
Captain Evenwel
StoneCutterz Shotgun Weddings
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 03:57:00 -
[585] - Quote
XT 0023 wrote:I have 4 accounts, all fully funded by PI. My math proves that this is no longer possible.. goodbye 3/4 accounts, I will not be renewing them once their time runs out. Thanks CCP, oh and btw.. **** you.
I have 3 accounts in a wormhole supporting all of them and a large POS. Might want to do your math again, or you can just send me your stuff. |
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 04:12:00 -
[586] - Quote
Garwill wrote:I am sorry, whether you needed to change PI taxation is debatable, but the way you have done this, is rather reprehensible. It's gone from bad to worse to insulting.
1) Changes announced in Dev Blog - change stated as tax doubling among other things - changes controversial and feedback commences. (usual) 2) CCP seems to listen to feedback and a second Dev blog comes out with some changes - still stating tax doubling. 3) People, happy CCP is doing the 'new thing' and listening/compromising seems inline with the 'new ccp' publicly announced mode of operations. Most accept taxes doubling as it doesn't break the bank. 4) Patch notes come out confirming taxes doubling.
Upgrade day and people shocked to find in many cases the tax they have to pay has been multiplied by 100x or more.
5) After multiple confused/angry threads finally on like the 50th page an official response by CCP NULLarbor:
"Our apologies for not being more prompt with this message, the base prices were changed late in the piece after reviewing a lot of feedback. Still, the information is available now and we are happy with the current course so it is in your hands to see what you can do with it."
Lame apology (what feedback were they reviewing that made them do this God knows and they certainly aren't saying) basically back to the bad old-school CCP of 'we are happy so deal with it - the end'. Add to this many people have been told FOR WEEKS no more changes were allowed to all other items.
6) People aren't exactly thrliled with this crap of an explanation and many unaware start filing petitions CERTAIN some bug is at work because we all knew -and was announced repeatedly - taxes were simply doubling right?
Today on Eve news - front page - this:
"We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirthis posmed that the tax rates match the design specifications."
So it matches design specifications? OH WHAT A RELIEF! Well that makes it all OK, and I am not talking just the massive tax increase far beyond what announced right up to launch, but in how it was put in despite all the official blogs and patch notes stating otherwise.
Oh and what in the world does 'confirthis posmed' mean? Seem like a rather rushed announcement to plaster that on your front page. More concerned with cutting down all the petitions rather than why they are happening?
Yes I hate the new tax, but in reality I hate more how you did this and how it's old CCP again. Yes it's just a game but I am morally offended regardless. Am sure there will be some stupid replies about my tears... sorry not crying... am just disappointed.
WOW couldn't have said it better. +100 |
Captain Evenwel
StoneCutterz Shotgun Weddings
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 04:16:00 -
[587] - Quote
electrostatus wrote:Abramul wrote:"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes." http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.aspMind changing this to reflect that it's closer to 100 times the old values for P1 and P2? I'd checked there and the two dev blogs before putting in a petition, and drew the conclusion it was bugged. If anyone's wondering what the tax rates were changed from: P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit +edit: I would suggest that a change be made to make single-planet production easier: allow processors to be grouped so that you can change from one material to another and reroute faster. In other numbers, its this: P0: 500%*old P1: 6579%*old P2: 10000%*old P3: 1167%*old P4: 270%*old It'll be even higher at customs offices where the rate is higher than 10%.
I'm not sure people quite understand what is happening here.
CCP the taxes are not going up by some random percentage rolled by CCP Guard on his mystical board of Dev Deviousness hashing out what tax rates we get. From what has been said and what has been done, it looks like we're moving away from the old per/unit flat tax and looking at a market-based value. This, contrary to belief is far more likely to help even the playing fields for smaller corps all the while pecking at the large indy corps that sell and buy high volume.
I actually think it's a far better tax then what we had before. The one thing I look forward to is a full explanation on exactly how they will work as I don't really understand how they would collect that kind of data. Definetly curious.
|
Captain Evenwel
StoneCutterz Shotgun Weddings
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 04:21:00 -
[588] - Quote
Garwill wrote:I am sorry, whether you needed to change PI taxation is debatable, but the way you have done this, is rather reprehensible. It's gone from bad to worse to insulting.
1) Changes announced in Dev Blog - change stated as tax doubling among other things - changes controversial and feedback commences. (usual) 2) CCP seems to listen to feedback and a second Dev blog comes out with some changes - still stating tax doubling. 3) People, happy CCP is doing the 'new thing' and listening/compromising seems inline with the 'new ccp' publicly announced mode of operations. Most accept taxes doubling as it doesn't break the bank. 4) Patch notes come out confirming taxes doubling.
Upgrade day and people shocked to find in many cases the tax they have to pay has been multiplied by 100x or more.
5) After multiple confused/angry threads finally on like the 50th page an official response by CCP NULLarbor:
"Our apologies for not being more prompt with this message, the base prices were changed late in the piece after reviewing a lot of feedback. Still, the information is available now and we are happy with the current course so it is in your hands to see what you can do with it."
Lame apology (what feedback were they reviewing that made them do this God knows and they certainly aren't saying) basically back to the bad old-school CCP of 'we are happy so deal with it - the end'. Add to this many people have been told FOR WEEKS no more changes were allowed to all other items.
6) People aren't exactly thrliled with this crap of an explanation and many unaware start filing petitions CERTAIN some bug is at work because we all knew -and was announced repeatedly - taxes were simply doubling right?
Today on Eve news - front page - this:
"We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirthis posmed that the tax rates match the design specifications."
So it matches design specifications? OH WHAT A RELIEF! Well that makes it all OK, and I am not talking just the massive tax increase far beyond what announced right up to launch, but in how it was put in despite all the official blogs and patch notes stating otherwise.
Oh and what in the world does 'confirthis posmed' mean? Seem like a rather rushed announcement to plaster that on your front page. More concerned with cutting down all the petitions rather than why they are happening?
Yes I hate the new tax, but in reality I hate more how you did this and how it's old CCP again. Yes it's just a game but I am morally offended regardless. Am sure there will be some stupid replies about my tears... sorry not crying... am just disappointed.
Morally offended? No, no tears. Just concerned about your health. Hope your conscience and you feel better soon. |
disasteur
Tellcomtec Incorporated. Preatoriani
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 04:29:00 -
[589] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi: --- The higher PI taxes are deliberate. We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why. The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk. With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed. By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden. For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeRegards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
when is the last time YOU tried PI ? its a g*ddamn miracle if u get any of the planet, and yes sometimes it can be verry profitable... but does that mean u have to screw it up with ridiculous taxes?
in my opinion you now broke more then you tried to fix |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 04:43:00 -
[590] - Quote
Jaggins wrote:If the taxes are hard, please stop doing PI so I can make even more ISK.
The market will find prices that incentivise creative solutions. Think low sec cartels, actually defending PCO's, etc...
I would say shame on the whiners, but they are fairly entertaining in a sad pitiful way.
Well you see that's a underwelleming ideal as if you have the man power and can do all that in low sec you can do it easyer in Null sec and even mine the moons to boot.
So I would say shame on the guys with underwelleming ideals. Much like the hybird buff was underwelleming.
Did they meet there stated goals yes. "The goal is to make them better at what they already do, not to change their roles"
Do they still suck yes. Why becouse the goal was sucky to begin with just like yours.
|
|
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:10:00 -
[591] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:ACY GTMI wrote:CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
It's no big deal. I've had as many as 30 PI operations running at the same time and have never made any significant profit from them even though I've tried a number of strategies, watched the tutorials, etc. The easy solution to this wonderful idea, at least for now, is to blow them in place without exporting anything. Maybe I'll try PI again some time, but there just doesn't seem to be any incentive. oh the tears, this is so good, please post more I have the same numbers of cc in 6 chars and I get 2B each month (in low sec), so you are doing something very wrong!!! Just to give you and idea of the impact, these new taxes cut my profits in 350M each month, so I'm going to wait until the prices go up to cover for these new production costs before I sell my stuff. Prices will go up, so nobody will loose nothing, the only diference is that you have to put some money upfront until you get the product in the market and sell it.
What pisses people off is that the release notes even right now still say that Taxs in High sec are only going to double.
It did not double it's well way beyond double in price just for taxs. I can careless myself I will place my stuff up for sale with the same profit margen if no one buys then it just sits in a station some were for years till it looks like I can make my isk pluse profite off of it.
But myself personly think this game is geting way lame. I pay taxs in real life not something I realy what to speend time on in a game I play for fun.
|
Wolodymyr
Mando'a Navy Controlled Chaos
8
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:10:00 -
[592] - Quote
Everyone HTFU
Higher taxes mean that in order for people to make money they'll need to sell their PI at more than it costs to make the stuff. This will interrupt supply and demand and raise the price of PI naturally. Eventually highsec PI people will still make money doing it. They'll just pay higher taxes and charge more for their stuff.
The vast majority of PI is done in highsec so prices will normalize based on highsec supply and demand. Everyone in low and nullsec who actually bother to do PI will just set their prices based on what they are in highsec anyway.
This really helps out lowsec where the people who actually live out there can do PI out of their own offices and actually make good money off of it. OR they can set up a public office and charge people to use it, this might actually make them more welcoming of highsec carebears coming into their space.
In nullsec PI was pretty dead already, Sometimes people would make POS fuel, (mechanical parts, coolant, construction blocks) But the new POS pellets pretty much killed that off. But with PI actually being valuable now people might start doing it and trying to ship it down to jita. Plus this will give Jump Freighter and Transport Ship pilots something to do other than selling T2 modules for more than they are worth in highsec.
If highsec carebears want to get rich quick and dodge the taxes then find some lowsec system 1 jump out of highsec. Then set up your own tax free private PI office. And get mining.
If someone shoots at your PI office then get your corp / alliance people together and fight them off.
Yeah you can get shot at in lowsec, and so can your office. And unlike a wardeck you can't just dock up until the bad people go away.
If you are willing to take a risk there are more rewards. And that's Eve. |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:18:00 -
[593] - Quote
Captain Evenwel wrote:electrostatus wrote:Abramul wrote:"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes." http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.aspMind changing this to reflect that it's closer to 100 times the old values for P1 and P2? I'd checked there and the two dev blogs before putting in a petition, and drew the conclusion it was bugged. If anyone's wondering what the tax rates were changed from: P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit +edit: I would suggest that a change be made to make single-planet production easier: allow processors to be grouped so that you can change from one material to another and reroute faster. In other numbers, its this: P0: 500%*old P1: 6579%*old P2: 10000%*old P3: 1167%*old P4: 270%*old It'll be even higher at customs offices where the rate is higher than 10%. I'm not sure people quite understand what is happening here. CCP the taxes are not going up by some random percentage rolled by CCP Guard on his mystical board of Dev Deviousness hashing out what tax rates we get. From what has been said and what has been done, it looks like we're moving away from the old per/unit flat tax and looking at a market-based value. This, contrary to belief is far more likely to help even the playing fields for smaller corps all the while pecking at the large indy corps that sell and buy high volume. I actually think it's a far better tax then what we had before. The one thing I look forward to is a full explanation on exactly how they will work as I don't really understand how they would collect that kind of data. Definetly curious.
Put the drugs down man crack is bad for you.
1.) Large Indy corps live were?
2.) Player owned Poco's in null sec will be very safe inside allance borders.
3.) They will set the tax's to zero if they want there pos's fueled.
So now that you step back put the crack pipe down and take a real look see plz try telling me now this is a good thing for the smaller guys? |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
421
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:24:00 -
[594] - Quote
Captain Evenwel wrote:electrostatus wrote:Abramul wrote:"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes." http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.aspMind changing this to reflect that it's closer to 100 times the old values for P1 and P2? I'd checked there and the two dev blogs before putting in a petition, and drew the conclusion it was bugged. If anyone's wondering what the tax rates were changed from: P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit +edit: I would suggest that a change be made to make single-planet production easier: allow processors to be grouped so that you can change from one material to another and reroute faster. In other numbers, its this: P0: 500%*old P1: 6579%*old P2: 10000%*old P3: 1167%*old P4: 270%*old It'll be even higher at customs offices where the rate is higher than 10%. I'm not sure people quite understand what is happening here. CCP the taxes are not going up by some random percentage rolled by CCP Guard on his mystical board of Dev Deviousness hashing out what tax rates we get. From what has been said and what has been done, it looks like we're moving away from the old per/unit flat tax and looking at a market-based value. This, contrary to belief is far more likely to help even the playing fields for smaller corps all the while pecking at the large indy corps that sell and buy high volume. I actually think it's a far better tax then what we had before. The one thing I look forward to is a full explanation on exactly how they will work as I don't really understand how they would collect that kind of data. Definetly curious.
On a related note a tax rate based on market value is a far better, healthier dynamic than based on an arbitrary (low ball) fictitious value that remains static.
The main point of these changes is as obvious as it is simple. That being to provide incentive to take chances on low sec PI POCO's. Note I did not say force.
A person will make roughly what they did before this patch doing High Sec PI once the prices stabilize. A person will make slightly better money, despite a somewhat higher tax rate, by doing Low Sec PI via Interbus. A person will make a much better profit margin putting up their own POCO.
The overall value of PI products goes up significantly, which is important for EVE and DUST. The overall value of planets with existing infrastructure (at this point a POCO) goes up significantly, which is important for EVE and DUST. Another point of conflict is produced, which is important for everyone.
Individual PI producers have free but taxed customs offices that cannot be blown up. This encourages them to work on basic raw material production, or purchasing the raw materials to make high tier items. It becomes trickier to produce the whole P4 chain from start to finish profitably. Consequently the granularity of pricing between the different tiers of PI products becomes more defined.
This single move restructures the whole industry, and puts serious money on the line instead of meaningless peanuts. It gives the whole process meaning, and raises the stakes.
I quite understand why people are shaken up, there was a failure to fully explain how the taxation would be determined before the patch. It's also going to be a rough transition, with many people getting confused and throwing up their hands... or getting taken advantage of (welcome to EVE). But when the air clears, PI will be a much more significant factor in the EVE economy, and be a large step closer to being something worth fighting over.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:27:00 -
[595] - Quote
*sigh* I think a lot of this argument could be done away with if they had simply allowed POCOs in high sec. If, like POSes they have to be corporate assets they could still be fought over via wardecs, and the risk/reward could still have been factored in via the better yields in low sec.
As a high sec PI player, I think I would have actually had fun with that mechanic, and I could have seen an entire industry of low tax POCOs opening up in areas where newbies try out PI. Could have been a rather cool mini economy... |
sukee tsayah
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
9
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:27:00 -
[596] - Quote
I'm just laughing at how badly CCP failed on this one. Utterly ridiculous.
I actually think the High Sec tax is a decent move. My biggest beef with this whole thing was that this whole patch was a big "send more newbs to High-Sec" scheme. Now it's a little better, but still doesn't fix the utterly ridiculous way in which you guys have nerfed PI for new players. As I said before, for big organized corps, this is a big boom. For new players? Screwed!!
Do you know how many new'ish players are going to leave null sec/low sec and go back to doing missions in high sec? I'm willing to bet the number is in the thousands.
Truly though, regardless of whether or not the new taxes are a good idea, you guys really screwed the pooch on preparing the community for it. Your subscribers are rightly pissed. They should be. First you said it would be "slightly higher" than current; then you changed it to "double"; then you changed it to 100x and never bothered to tell anyone!
It's like you're Nancy Pelosi: "You gotta pass the bill to see what's in it!"
silly.
CCP, you guys are pretty cool, but you totally pulled a Pelosi on this one. You should hire me for Crisis Management and Public Relations. |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:34:00 -
[597] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Captain Evenwel wrote:electrostatus wrote:Abramul wrote:"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes." http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.aspMind changing this to reflect that it's closer to 100 times the old values for P1 and P2? I'd checked there and the two dev blogs before putting in a petition, and drew the conclusion it was bugged. If anyone's wondering what the tax rates were changed from: P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit +edit: I would suggest that a change be made to make single-planet production easier: allow processors to be grouped so that you can change from one material to another and reroute faster. In other numbers, its this: P0: 500%*old P1: 6579%*old P2: 10000%*old P3: 1167%*old P4: 270%*old It'll be even higher at customs offices where the rate is higher than 10%. I'm not sure people quite understand what is happening here. CCP the taxes are not going up by some random percentage rolled by CCP Guard on his mystical board of Dev Deviousness hashing out what tax rates we get. From what has been said and what has been done, it looks like we're moving away from the old per/unit flat tax and looking at a market-based value. This, contrary to belief is far more likely to help even the playing fields for smaller corps all the while pecking at the large indy corps that sell and buy high volume. I actually think it's a far better tax then what we had before. The one thing I look forward to is a full explanation on exactly how they will work as I don't really understand how they would collect that kind of data. Definetly curious. On a related note a tax rate based on market value is a far better, healthier dynamic than based on an arbitrary (low ball) fictitious value that remains static. The main point of these changes is as obvious as it is simple. That being to provide incentive to take chances on low sec PI POCO's. Note I did not say force. A person will make roughly what they did before this patch doing High Sec PI once the prices stabilize. A person will make slightly better money, despite a somewhat higher tax rate, by doing Low Sec PI via Interbus. A person will make a much better profit margin putting up their own POCO. The overall value of PI products goes up significantly, which is important for EVE and DUST. The overall value of planets with existing infrastructure (at this point a POCO) goes up significantly, which is important for EVE and DUST. Another point of conflict is produced, which is important for everyone. Individual PI producers have free but taxed customs offices that cannot be blown up. This encourages them to work on basic raw material production, or purchasing the raw materials to make high tier items. It becomes trickier to produce the whole P4 chain from start to finish profitably. Consequently the granularity of pricing between the different tiers of PI products becomes more defined. This single move restructures the whole industry, and puts serious money on the line instead of meaningless peanuts. It gives the whole process meaning, and raises the stakes. I quite understand why people are shaken up, there was a failure to fully explain how the taxation would be determined before the patch. It's also going to be a rough transition, with many people getting confused and throwing up their hands... or getting taken advantage of (welcome to EVE). But when the air clears, PI will be a much more significant factor in the EVE economy, and be a large step closer to being something worth fighting over.
Why becouse POS bashing was so much fun? So lets go Poco bashing instead? It's retared. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
421
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:34:00 -
[598] - Quote
sukee tsayah wrote:I'm just laughing at how badly CCP failed on this one. Utterly ridiculous. I actually think the High Sec tax is a decent move. My biggest beef with this whole thing was that this whole patch was a big "send more newbs to High-Sec" scheme. Now it's a little better, but still doesn't fix the utterly ridiculous way in which you guys have nerfed PI for new players. As I said before, for big organized corps, this is a big boom. For new players? Screwed!! Do you know how many new'ish players are going to leave null sec/low sec and go back to doing missions in high sec? I'm willing to bet the number is in the thousands. Truly though, regardless of whether or not the new taxes are a good idea, you guys really screwed the pooch on preparing the community for it. Your subscribers are rightly pissed. They should be. First you said it would be "slightly higher" than current; then you changed it to "double"; then you changed it to 100x and never bothered to tell anyone! It's like you're Nancy Pelosi: "You gotta pass the bill to see what's in it!" silly.CCP, you guys are pretty cool, but you totally pulled a Pelosi on this one. You should hire me for Crisis Management and Public Relations.
I'm in full agreement on the communication failure.
Not that anything would have changed.
People would have screamed for weeks and not attempted to understand the reason it was necessary, statues would have been shot, people would have threatened to leave over it.
But even though it would have been a ridiculous little slice of hell at least CCP wouldn't have been accused of dropping the communication ball again. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:35:00 -
[599] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote: The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk.
99% profit margins eh? I wonder how you made up that number, time is obviously worthless. ;-)
That would make mining the single most profitable profession in Eve since it's not taxed and therefore has an infinite profit margin.
I think the messaging of the changes has been misleading, even though the actual changes might be good. Measuring the profitability in this way for ressource extraction is probably not the right way and sounds very clueless. I can assure you that manufacturing type PI operations did not enjoy 99% profit margins, and are now probably impossible to profit from. |
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:35:00 -
[600] - Quote
Garwill wrote:I am sorry, whether you needed to change PI taxation is debatable, but the way you have done this, is rather reprehensible. It's gone from bad to worse to insulting.
1) Changes announced in Dev Blog - change stated as tax doubling among other things - changes controversial and feedback commences. (usual) 2) CCP seems to listen to feedback and a second Dev blog comes out with some changes - still stating tax doubling. 3) People, happy CCP is doing the 'new thing' and listening/compromising seems inline with the 'new ccp' publicly announced mode of operations. Most accept taxes doubling as it doesn't break the bank. 4) Patch notes come out confirming taxes doubling.
Upgrade day and people shocked to find in many cases the tax they have to pay has been multiplied by 100x or more.
5) After multiple confused/angry threads finally on like the 50th page an official response by CCP NULLarbor:
"Our apologies for not being more prompt with this message, the base prices were changed late in the piece after reviewing a lot of feedback. Still, the information is available now and we are happy with the current course so it is in your hands to see what you can do with it."
Lame apology (what feedback were they reviewing that made them do this God knows and they certainly aren't saying) basically back to the bad old-school CCP of 'we are happy so deal with it - the end'. Add to this many people have been told FOR WEEKS no more changes were allowed to all other items.
6) People aren't exactly thrliled with this crap of an explanation and many unaware start filing petitions CERTAIN some bug is at work because we all knew -and was announced repeatedly - taxes were simply doubling right?
Today on Eve news - front page - this:
"We have received a number of petitions, asking if new tax rates of the NPC Customs Offices are working properly as they are in some cases drastically higher compared to the pre-Crucible tax rates. Our developers have confirthis posmed that the tax rates match the design specifications."
So it matches design specifications? OH WHAT A RELIEF! Well that makes it all OK, and I am not talking just the massive tax increase far beyond what announced right up to launch, but in how it was put in despite all the official blogs and patch notes stating otherwise.
Oh and what in the world does 'confirthis posmed' mean? Seem like a rather rushed announcement to plaster that on your front page. More concerned with cutting down all the petitions rather than why they are happening?
Yes I hate the new tax, but in reality I hate more how you did this and how it's old CCP again. Yes it's just a game but I am morally offended regardless. Am sure there will be some stupid replies about my tears... sorry not crying... am just disappointed.
This exactly. Well said. |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
421
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:36:00 -
[601] - Quote
Quote:Why becouse POS bashing was so much fun? So lets go Poco bashing instead? It's retared.
I'm glad you agree with me that the chances of someone having a lark blowing up your POCO in Low Sec just for the "fun" of doing it is not as high as people are making it out to be. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
29
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:39:00 -
[602] - Quote
CCP you did this all wrong and basically lied to people even during the 'we want your feedback!!!!' phase. Pretty damn insulting.
Been playing many years but this just made up my mind. Just signed up for SWTOR. Can't wait. If its any good - sorry - goodbye eve - tired of CCP pretending to care.
FYI doing this right as your new competition coming out is pretty damn dumb of you. |
sukee tsayah
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:41:00 -
[603] - Quote
Dalketh wrote:CCP you did this all wrong and basically lied to people even during the 'we want your feedback!!!!' phase. Pretty damn insulting.
Been playing many years but this just made up my mind. Just signed up for SWTOR. Can't wait. If its any good - sorry - goodbye eve - tired of CCP pretending to care.
FYI doing this right as your new competition coming out is pretty damn dumb of you.
CCP is lucky because SWTOR is SO MUCH FAIL.
very very lucky indeed.
|
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:41:00 -
[604] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:sukee tsayah wrote:I'm just laughing at how badly CCP failed on this one. Utterly ridiculous. I actually think the High Sec tax is a decent move. My biggest beef with this whole thing was that this whole patch was a big "send more newbs to High-Sec" scheme. Now it's a little better, but still doesn't fix the utterly ridiculous way in which you guys have nerfed PI for new players. As I said before, for big organized corps, this is a big boom. For new players? Screwed!! Do you know how many new'ish players are going to leave null sec/low sec and go back to doing missions in high sec? I'm willing to bet the number is in the thousands. Truly though, regardless of whether or not the new taxes are a good idea, you guys really screwed the pooch on preparing the community for it. Your subscribers are rightly pissed. They should be. First you said it would be "slightly higher" than current; then you changed it to "double"; then you changed it to 100x and never bothered to tell anyone! It's like you're Nancy Pelosi: "You gotta pass the bill to see what's in it!" silly.CCP, you guys are pretty cool, but you totally pulled a Pelosi on this one. You should hire me for Crisis Management and Public Relations. I'm in full agreement on the communication failure. Not that anything would have changed. People would have screamed for weeks and not attempted to understand the reason it was necessary, statues would have been shot, people would have threatened to leave over it. But even though it would have been a ridiculous little slice of hell at least CCP wouldn't have been accused of dropping the communication ball again.
I would totaly aggre with that too. The worst is the bad comunication.
Though all good comunication would have do is I would have had my PI off planet before patch day now it just sits there still. I'm not touching anything till things in market cool down for a few months of sold price then I can see if the profite of High sec pi is even worth my time.
I already know I am unwilling to deal with low sec scum bags so thats out. Though It will be worth my time blowing up low sec poco's for kicks. No reason not to make there life suck too. And at least they will have to fight pvp ships and fleets and not pve ships.
|
Nason Rola
Senex Legio
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:46:00 -
[605] - Quote
Wolodymyr wrote:Everyone HTFU
Higher taxes mean that in order for people to make money they'll need to sell their PI at more than it costs to make the stuff. This will interrupt supply and demand and raise the price of PI naturally. Eventually highsec PI people will still make money doing it. They'll just pay higher taxes and charge more for their stuff.
The vast majority of PI is done in highsec so prices will normalize based on highsec supply and demand. Everyone in low and nullsec who actually bother to do PI will just set their prices based on what they are in highsec anyway.
This really helps out lowsec where the people who actually live out there can do PI out of their own offices and actually make good money off of it. OR they can set up a public office and charge people to use it, this might actually make them more welcoming of highsec carebears coming into their space.
In nullsec PI was pretty dead already, Sometimes people would make POS fuel, (mechanical parts, coolant, construction blocks) But the new POS pellets pretty much killed that off. But with PI actually being valuable now people might start doing it and trying to ship it down to jita. Plus this will give Jump Freighter and Transport Ship pilots something to do other than selling T2 modules for more than they are worth in highsec.
If highsec carebears want to get rich quick and dodge the taxes then find some lowsec system 1 jump out of highsec. Then set up your own tax free private PI office. And get mining.
Gameplay pro tip: find a lowsec system without a station, it'll have fewer people in it.
If someone shoots at your PI office then get your corp / alliance people together and fight them off.
Yeah you can get shot at in lowsec, and so can your office. And unlike a wardeck you can't just dock up until the bad people go away.
If you are willing to take a risk there are more rewards. And that's Eve.
I would have post something similar, but I would must better call the carebares Justin Bieber lovers b/c they dont want to get their feet out of the shallow end. Take your drama lamas and STFU. If you really are planning on quiting, please send me a message with the account login and password, I'd hate for such easy ISK to go to waste. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:49:00 -
[606] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote: On a related note a tax rate based on market value is a far better, healthier dynamic than based on an arbitrary (low ball) fictitious value that remains static.
Agreed, but I haven't seen them say it will float with the market value; just that it was set from the Nov 2011 level.
Ranger 1 wrote: The main point of these changes is as obvious as it is simple. That being to provide incentive to take chances on low sec PI POCO's. Note I did not say force.
I presume you mean the tax rate change. Agreed. It narrows the gap considerably on the economics there. I don't think they have it quite right yet; in particular, the up front cost is too high - I think. We'll see what people really do.
Ranger 1 wrote: A person will make roughly what they did before this patch doing High Sec PI once the prices stabilize. A person will make slightly better money, despite a somewhat higher tax rate, by doing Low Sec PI via Interbus. A person will make a much better profit margin putting up their own POCO.
I don't get your reasoning on that middle one? It seems before, the losec PI had the advantage due to better planets,while now, that's been offset with a tax rate disadvantage?
Ranger 1 wrote: The overall value of PI products goes up significantly, which is important for EVE and DUST. The overall value of planets with existing infrastructure (at this point a POCO) goes up significantly, which is important for EVE and DUST. Another point of conflict is produced, which is important for everyone.
I get that.
Ranger 1 wrote: Individual PI producers have free but taxed customs offices that cannot be blown up. This encourages them to work on basic raw material production, or purchasing the raw materials to make high tier items. It becomes trickier to produce the whole P4 chain from start to finish profitably. Consequently the granularity of pricing between the different tiers of PI products becomes more defined.
I don't get "free but taxed customs offices". Nor "that cannot be blown up". Unless you've switched to talking about hisec?
[cantquote=Ranger 1] This single move restructures the whole industry, and puts serious money on the line instead of meaningless peanuts. It gives the whole process meaning, and raises the stakes. [/quote]
Indeed, enough to bring both you and I into the discussion.
[cantquote=Ranger 1] I quite understand why people are shaken up, there was a failure to fully explain how the taxation would be determined before the patch. It's also going to be a rough transition, with many people getting confused and throwing up their hands... or getting taken advantage of (welcome to EVE). But when the air clears, PI will be a much more significant factor in the EVE economy, and be a large step closer to being something worth fighting over. [/quote]
But so much of the shakeup was unnecessary. They rushed it. The code was ready, but the marketing was not. The documentation was not -- still is not. CCP screwed up a good idea, basically; the tax rate was a desperate last-minute fix.
They should have taken their time and done it right. Talked with players, made their decisions, communicated them well in advance, and iterated if necessary.
You shouldn't be making those points above. CCP should have beaten you to it.
When PI first came out, I hesitated to get into it, for fear they'd screw it up for the sake of DUST. I needn't have worried; the problems back then had nothing to do with DUST. There are aspects to this plan that are far better than I'd have ever expected for how to integrate it with DUST, but they've failed on basics, like writing documentation and communicating with the customer.
[Sorry about the [cantquote's]. I'm disappointed they haven't fixed the forum software. I'm not sure what I'd give up to have had it fixed, but I'm pretty sure there's something] |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 05:49:00 -
[607] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:Why becouse POS bashing was so much fun? So lets go Poco bashing instead? It's retared. I'm glad you agree with me that the chances of someone having a lark blowing up your POCO in Low Sec just for the "fun" of doing it is not as high as people are making it out to be.
There not going to do it for fun. The power blocks will do it to Monoplize PI. When they fig out how all the cards are in there hands and learn to pull the new strings handed to them.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
421
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:00:00 -
[608] - Quote
Quote:I don't get "free but taxed customs offices". Nor "that cannot be blown up". Unless you've switched to talking about hisec?
Yes. Sorry about that. I had High Sec in my head as I was writing but it didn't make it into the post. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:01:00 -
[609] - Quote
sukee tsayah wrote: CCP is lucky because SWTOR is SO MUCH FAIL.
very very lucky indeed.
I think this is true for most of EvE's existance. EvE is a unique game, it found an uneasy balance between the 'all null' style PvP that the original developers craved, and the 'all safe' PvE that tends to bring in enough players to keep such a system profitable. I think they have done an OK job striking this balance, BUT they have really benefited from the fact no one else has put up any real competition to the. The number of people interested in a game like this is fairly (relative to other MMOs) small... a real contender, competition that could actually draw off significant numbers of those niche players, would really change things.
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:02:00 -
[610] - Quote
Rip Minner wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:Why becouse POS bashing was so much fun? So lets go Poco bashing instead? It's retared. I'm glad you agree with me that the chances of someone having a lark blowing up your POCO in Low Sec just for the "fun" of doing it is not as high as people are making it out to be. There not going to do it for fun. The power blocks will do it to Monoplize PI. When they fig out how all the cards are in there hands and learn to pull the new strings handed to them.
That's the concern.
And it would actually be fine, if it were an unstable, contestable situation. |
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
422
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:14:00 -
[611] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:Rip Minner wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:Quote:Why becouse POS bashing was so much fun? So lets go Poco bashing instead? It's retared. I'm glad you agree with me that the chances of someone having a lark blowing up your POCO in Low Sec just for the "fun" of doing it is not as high as people are making it out to be. There not going to do it for fun. The power blocks will do it to Monoplize PI. When they fig out how all the cards are in there hands and learn to pull the new strings handed to them. That's the concern. And it would actually be fine, if it were an unstable, contestable situation.
Yes, it's a concern, but there are several factors working against a Null Sec entity wishing to corner PI production.
1: The sheer number of Low Sec planets involved that would have to be laboriously attacked, reinforced, and attacked again. 2: The sheer number of Null Sec planets that would need to be developed first before such a plan would be realistically considered as a next step. 3: The fact that their hands are going to be very full in their own back yard in a few months when DUST is released and PI has influence in how their own Sov is gained and lost.
The interesting thing about this is, and this is all conjecture, but after DUST is released we may find that it turns out to be the great equalizer between powerful Null Sec entities and High Sec industrialists when discussing PI. I won't go into that any further, as at this time it is pointless to do more than make educated guesses, but it is entirely possible that a high sec player or group could make life very uncomfortable for Null Sec entities wishing to keep not only their PI industries but their own Sov completely bulletproof.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Garwill
Sudden-Impact Beyond-Repair
14
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:14:00 -
[612] - Quote
sukee tsayah wrote:Dalketh wrote:CCP you did this all wrong and basically lied to people even during the 'we want your feedback!!!!' phase. Pretty damn insulting.
Been playing many years but this just made up my mind. Just signed up for SWTOR. Can't wait. If its any good - sorry - goodbye eve - tired of CCP pretending to care.
FYI doing this right as your new competition coming out is pretty damn dumb of you. CCP is lucky because SWTOR is SO MUCH FAIL. very very lucky indeed.
Interesting since several people in Beta have told me it rocks... Who know of course but definitely worth a look I guess since CCP back to it's old "style". Just my opinion. I can't imagine not playing Eve, but **** happens. Not gonna play where I don't think I am respected. |
Inquisitor Pain
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:15:00 -
[613] - Quote
WOW so much rage here, let me put it to you all this way, higher taxes based on more current market valuation (read more accurate at last) and everyones ready to throw in the towel on PI? I call BS on that, do what every other buisness does, pas the cost on down the chain to the end consumer, all that isk generated by incursions has to be sucked up somewhere, and CCP knows they don't want to **** off everyone doing incursions right now.
Some here have complained especially about the higher teirs of PI costing even more, and to that i have this response, Ferrari pays luxury taxes and gas guzzler taxes to import their cars into the united states, but i'd far rather be a ferrari dealer dureing a recession then a ford dealer dureing a boom simply due to the profit margins,
Other thing people failed to consider, PI cost will MASSIVELY raise the cost of outpost deployment, which in my opinion will be a very good thing.
My final note, I hope that many of you who are shedding so many tears here do quit PI (or eve your choice) becuase it just means more iskies in my nullsec, POCO busting, pos fueling, POS owning wallet. |
Serenity 159080
State War Academy Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:17:00 -
[614] - Quote
gargars wrote:So you now say this was deliberate, yet the insane tax increase was never mentioned to us in advance? Not in the blog certainly and not even in the patch notes. Both state:
"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes"
Where did you tell us in advance that by 'doubled' you mean 'multiplied by 100'?
Nowhere. And why not?
Hoping it would slide under the radar somehow with people giddy over the true good changes in the expansion? I think this is going to go very badly for you. Cool new things people get used to fast, fail things like this that effect people's 'wallet' directly tend to not fade away.
CCP release Dev Blogs, about feature's that are in development, and players then complain that when the feature is released it wasn't exactly the same as mentioned.
CCP develops new features without reveiling them to players, and the players complain that they had no oportunity to give feedback.
Is there any way CCP can win?
But yes, CCP could have followed up the Dev Blog, or an update to the original to explain the new changes. When I want to know what CCP is developing that is where I look, finding a Dev post on P24 of a forum thread is a little difficult. |
Toshiro GreyHawk
35
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:18:00 -
[615] - Quote
Well ... looks like I'm just going to let my stuff sit until all this gets sorted out.
But - I will say that this is typical hypocrisy on the part of computer game developers.
CCP - is not the first company to say they were creating a free form game environment. They're also not the first to lie about it.
The game company has a concept of how they want to game to proceed - and they design the rules to try to FORCE players to play the way they want them to.
All the changes you see here are designed to:
1) Force people to leave Hi Sec
2) Force people into larger corporations ... because smaller ones will just get lunched in Lo Sec and can't even exist in Null Sec without the permission of an alliance.
Typically - neither of those two things is going to happen.
PI in Hi Sec may well become unprofitable - in which case the people in Hi Sec doing it now - will go do something else in Hi Sec. If they had wanted to go to Lo Sec - they'd already be there.
The corporations doing PI in Lo & Null Sec will take over PI production - but - their numbers will NOT be swelled by a sudden influx of people leaving smaller corporations just so they can do Lo/Null Sec PI. The people who are in smaller corporations - are mostly in them because they'd rather run their own corporation or be in one where they had a real voice - than be nobodies in a large corporation who have someone else telling them what to do. No amount of incentive is going to change that.
Nothing is going to make people who live in Hi Sec (the majority of the players) go to Lo or Null Sec.
Making PI untenable in Hi Sec will merely drive them to do something else.
Make no mistake about this - NOTHING - is going to get people who want to play in Hi Sec to go down to Lo Sec - NOTHING. You might get them to quit the game - but you're NOT going to get them to leave Hi Sec any other way.
However, - CCP - just as ... say ... SOE ... has done - please feel free to **** up your game as much as you like trying to get people to do things they are NOT going to do.
Now - regardless - CCP is a bunch of lying assholes for TELLING US that the taxes would only double. The word Double has a specific meaning - and we all know what it is. It doesn't mean something fluctuates with market prices, it doesn't mean anything other than X 2. If you didn't mean DOUBLE than you shouldn't have ******* said DOUBLE.
I for one ... would not have just spent a bunch of time and money training characters in PI and establishing PI colonies. I did all that after the POCCO announcement - because I believed (yes - I was stupid) what CCP said. I figured ... "OK ... it'll go up but it won't be so bad."
If you - CCP - have done anything other than WHAT YOU ******* SAID YOU WERE GOING TO DO ... it means that at best - you're incompetent. Where I went to college - Computer Science was part of the Math Department ... last I checked ... people competent at math - understand what DOUBLE means.
It's your game CCP - you are free to be hypocritical and continue to blather on, lying about a Sand Box - when what you (like other computer game companies do) is try to force the players to play the way they want them to - but - you should at least expect to get called on it - when you don't seem to under stand the meaning of the word DOUBLE.
Now ... personally ... I said this whole POCCO thing was stupid from the beginning and that it would fail. I've been right about things like that ... a lot ... but I've been wrong too. So we'll just have to see how this all works out ...
I don't think I'm going to be doing all that much PI until then though ...
Looking on the bright side ... well ... for me anyway ... at least I didn't sink as much money into it as some people have. I don't really give a **** ... I've pissed away a lot more time and money than this on stupid ideas that were entirely my own. If I was one of the guys who really bit big on PI ... I'd be pissed.
*shrug*
. |
gargars
Cohesion Inc Beyond-Repair
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:28:00 -
[616] - Quote
Serenity 159080 wrote:gargars wrote:So you now say this was deliberate, yet the insane tax increase was never mentioned to us in advance? Not in the blog certainly and not even in the patch notes. Both state:
"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes"
Where did you tell us in advance that by 'doubled' you mean 'multiplied by 100'?
Nowhere. And why not?
Hoping it would slide under the radar somehow with people giddy over the true good changes in the expansion? I think this is going to go very badly for you. Cool new things people get used to fast, fail things like this that effect people's 'wallet' directly tend to not fade away.
CCP release Dev Blogs, about feature's that are in development, and players then complain that when the feature is released it wasn't exactly the same as mentioned. CCP develops new features without reveiling them to players, and the players complain that they had no oportunity to give feedback. But yes, CCP could have followed up the Dev Blog, or an update to the original to explain the new changes. When I want to know what CCP is developing that is where I look, finding a Dev post on P24 of a forum thread is a little difficult. Is there any way CCP can win?
Confusing to follow but yes - there is a way CCP can win.
Publish Dev Blog (they did)
People provice feedback and CCP adjust some things to meet needs/demands/expectations (they did)
STICK TO THEM (they did not)
Slip in totally different change that changes the whole thing with no warning (THEY DID)
I think by omitting the last item there would be no issue now don't you? |
Chicken Pizza
Penumbra Institute Inver Brass
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:53:00 -
[617] - Quote
Serenity 159080 wrote:CCP release Dev Blogs, about feature's that are in development, and players then complain that when the feature is released it wasn't exactly the same as mentioned.
CCP develops new features without reveiling them to players, and the players complain that they had no opportunity to give feedback.
Is there any way CCP can win?
But yes, CCP could have followed up the Dev Blog, or an update to the original to explain the new changes. When I want to know what CCP is developing that is where I look, finding a Dev post on p24 of a forum thread is a little difficult.
CCP can win by introducing new features that are as widely accepted as most of the Crucible content that isn't POCOs. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 06:56:00 -
[618] - Quote
This is probably asking a bit much. Would someone from CCP be able to respond to us at least? This is the eve information portal. I think a lot of us are STILL raising valid points, and no one (not even the "tears are delicious" people) has been able to refute them or make anyone feel any sort of reassurance that you know what you're doing. |
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 07:08:00 -
[619] - Quote
I'd love to see the specifications of the changes.
When determining the market values for taxation I hope you keep in mind that the market price equals raw value + tax expense. That means you should probably subtract the old taxes before using market values for adjustments, otherwise you put taxes on taxes and will create a tax raise at each adjustment.
Before this change I thought that the value of the PI goods was set deliberately low to take into account the fact that PI tariffs are basically transaction taxes and can be taxed several times. Market tax is at 1% a relatively low value because those are transaction taxes and can happen several times. Bounty tax is 11% a much higher value because this is income tax and can only happen once. In light of this the PI tariffs seems exceptionally high. According to my sense of logic and immersion, NPC tariffs should be somewhere between these two numbers, higher than market tax because there is an upper limit to the number of tax events, but lower than bounty taxes. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 07:18:00 -
[620] - Quote
Toshiro GreyHawk wrote: All the changes you see here are designed to:
1) Force people to leave Hi Sec
2) Force people into larger corporations ... because smaller ones will just get lunched in Lo Sec and can't even exist in Null Sec without the permission of an alliance.
Typically - neither of those two things is going to happen.
I also suspect there is a (3), encourage people back to L4 mission running. That seems to be the one high sec activity that does not get nerfed to hell, probably because of how vital it is to null players. |
|
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 07:24:00 -
[621] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:This is probably asking a bit much. Would someone from CCP be able to respond to us at least? This is the eve information portal. I think a lot of us are STILL raising valid points, and no one (not even the "tears are delicious" people) has been able to refute them or make anyone feel any sort of reassurance that you know what you're doing.
They have replied - front page of eve:
"Our developers have confirmed that the tax rates match the design specifications."
Nothing about how they lied after stating in every dev blog AND the patch notes the increase was doubling what we paid before. Just insulting mumbo gumbo.
All they seem to want now is to stop having to deal with petitions on it, not addressing the fact they lied or purposely withheld the true changes they knew they were inflicting on us... for DUST. Eve pays again for another of their game ideas. Didn't they just recently apologize for this ****?
OLD CCP IS BACK already it seems.
I myself and those I know are submitting petitions to demand accountability if only thru the nightmare of having to reply to each of us - as they DESERVE. Something that effects THEM instead of US. |
Xing Chima
Savage Shield Corp
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 07:25:00 -
[622] - Quote
I think its a good change, making the tax based of in game market prices is good for our sandbox.
However the miscommunication about the goods value changing as well was just going to make the carebears cry. Then again anything that hurts their profits makes them cry. |
Dalketh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 07:29:00 -
[623] - Quote
Xing Chima wrote:I think its a good change, making the tax based of in game market prices is good for our sandbox.
However the miscommunication about the goods value changing as well was just going to make the carebears cry. Then again anything that hurts their profits makes them cry.
Who was it crying during the anomoly nerfs? 100 pages of carebears lol? Watch where you aim that smug little finger of yours nullbear. It's all equal.
|
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
53
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 07:55:00 -
[624] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:mkint wrote:Scarlett Ninja wrote: Wasn't there a blog about making it easier for smaller corps or solo players to move to 0.0 and how it would be made harder for bigger alliances to gank those players so they could get established?
Please could CCP explain to me why you have deliberately stopped me, you fee paying customer with 3 acc, from accessing this game feature in favor of the huge alliances whom i think already have a monopoly of so many resources.
There is no future in EVE for groups smaller than 2,000 people. That is why EVE will die. I don't know if devs are being bribed with RMT, or they are just incredibly myopic. Either way, I'm not sure I've ever been more convinced that EVE online has an expiration date, and that it's closer than anyone suspected. I think i speak for us all when i say i can't wait for you to leave.
Oh, brilliant.
Well said, lemming. Well-said.
I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
19
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 07:56:00 -
[625] - Quote
Personally, I'm pretty tired of people whining about other people caring about their aspect of the game.
Is it just me, or is it just the pirate/griefer crowd that seems to feel the need to feel superior this way -- and express it in the forums?
Regardless of who's doing it to whom, grow up! If you don't care about something someone else does: Just don't post. Go away. Do what you enjoy.
Oh, wait, right. That IS what you enjoy. Right. |
sukee tsayah
Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 08:02:00 -
[626] - Quote
Garwill wrote:sukee tsayah wrote:Dalketh wrote:CCP you did this all wrong and basically lied to people even during the 'we want your feedback!!!!' phase. Pretty damn insulting.
Been playing many years but this just made up my mind. Just signed up for SWTOR. Can't wait. If its any good - sorry - goodbye eve - tired of CCP pretending to care.
FYI doing this right as your new competition coming out is pretty damn dumb of you. CCP is lucky because SWTOR is SO MUCH FAIL. very very lucky indeed. Interesting since several people in Beta have told me it rocks... Who know of course but definitely worth a look I guess since CCP back to it's old "style". Just my opinion. I can't imagine not playing Eve, but **** happens. Not gonna play where I don't think I am respected.
Well if you're looking for a clone of WoW, then yeah, go play SWTOR, 'cause that's what it is. And if you think the people over at SWTOR are going to care much about what you have to say, you're free to dream on. CCP has a better track record than most others; but they do have their moments. |
Adrian Stair
Essence Industrial and Trade B A C K B 0 N E
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 08:29:00 -
[627] - Quote
Jaggins wrote:If the taxes are hard, please stop doing PI so I can make even more ISK.
The market will find prices that incentivise creative solutions. Think low sec cartels, actually defending PCO's, etc...
I would say shame on the whiners, but they are fairly entertaining in a sad pitiful way.
+1 |
Nikita Van-Gogh
Potsdam Royal Guards Nite's Reign
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 08:30:00 -
[628] - Quote
idk what ccp try'd but hell Highsec PI is making more money then ever.... im Happy! |
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 08:47:00 -
[629] - Quote
Let's see CCP under fire for yet another controversy of their own making, and yet again a never before heard from "oh no I am not a CCP alt" posting single-minded support.
|
Katowen
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 08:50:00 -
[630] - Quote
Dalketh wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote:This is probably asking a bit much. Would someone from CCP be able to respond to us at least? This is the eve information portal. I think a lot of us are STILL raising valid points, and no one (not even the "tears are delicious" people) has been able to refute them or make anyone feel any sort of reassurance that you know what you're doing. They have replied - front page of eve: "Our developers have confirmed that the tax rates match the design specifications." Nothing about how they lied after stating in every dev blog AND the patch notes the increase was doubling what we paid before. Just insulting mumbo gumbo. All they seem to want now is to stop having to deal with petitions on it, not addressing the fact they lied or purposely withheld the true changes they knew they were inflicting on us... for DUST. Eve pays again for another of their game ideas. Didn't they just recently apologize for this ****? OLD CCP IS BACK already it seems. I myself and those I know are submitting petitions to demand accountability if only thru the nightmare of having to reply to each of us - as they DESERVE. Something that effects THEM instead of US.
They actually DID NOT lie to use about doubling the tax rate for HighSec offices...They are 10% taxed on the goods.
WHAT THEY DID NOT SAY, was they adjusted the BASE VALUE of the goods to be taxed to the average market price as of 2011 (not average market price back in 2009).
That's where the confusion is.
Katowen
Katowen |
|
Ineeh
Le Cafe des Sports
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 08:55:00 -
[631] - Quote
What about people who were only doing PI to fuel their own POS, without ever selling it ? Wait i know, they are screwed, period.
POS fuel cost have risen, between that nerf on PI taxes and the speculation of the f***** goons on oxygen isotope.
My own POS has been unanchored, and i don't plan to use it before long.
Thanks god, SWTOR is only a few weeks away, it's time i get some rest from EVE. |
Hard1234
Dodging Bullets Tritech Industries
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 09:05:00 -
[632] - Quote
ACY GTMI wrote:CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi:
---
The higher PI taxes are deliberate.
Regards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
It's no big deal. I've had as many as 30 PI operations running at the same time and have never made any significant profit from them even though I've tried a number of strategies, watched the tutorials, etc. The easy solution to this wonderful idea, at least for now, is to blow them in place without exporting anything. Maybe I'll try PI again some time, but there just doesn't seem to be any incentive.
You probably try PI in high sec. I live in c2 makeing only coolant there. I go out once a month when I have enough coolant to sell. I make 200+ m (now even more since price went up a lot) selling coolant. I dont even talk about ribbons, gas, mining materials and reactions. I make 400 m (depending on the price).
That was before this patch. Now I'll have to shut down PI untill I'm able to destroy interbus co and put my own.
|
Chiralos
Merchant Princes
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 09:21:00 -
[633] - Quote
CCP should have made a larger announcement when they decided to change the tax rates from being based on the old fiat values to market-based one. Also - Concorde and Interbus tax rates going to fluctuate with the market ? What is the mechanism for this ?
That being said ...
This is the way things should be heading. You either buy the security you need to run your PI operation from Concorde or from other players. |
Evil MacGyver
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 10:01:00 -
[634] - Quote
So can I get a refund on my PI skillpoints so I can apply them to something useful? |
Halloween Harry
X1983
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 10:43:00 -
[635] - Quote
CCP is trying to force players into low and 0.0 But forcing customers with practical constraints into 0.0 when they have a different style to play than 0.0 players will resulting into less active accounts. Customers can't be forced to something, they stop paying and this is threatening all of us with our play style. |
Justin Cody
T.A.L.O.N. Company Psychotic Tendencies.
17
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:00:00 -
[636] - Quote
Halloween Harry wrote:CCP is trying to force players into low and 0.0 But forcing customers with practical constraints into 0.0 when they have a different style to play than 0.0 players will resulting into less active accounts. Customers can't be forced to something, they stop paying and this is threatening all of us with our play style.
Yes they can be forced into a different play style. This provides incentives to those pilots to move to low sec. Kinda like moving from a high taxed state to a low taxed one. Sure you might have some fewer services but you have the freedom to travel and make the best of both worlds.
go take a planet for yourself.
derp
that or gbtw |
Klingon Admiral
Black Hole Cluster
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:01:00 -
[637] - Quote
Well, why not introducing a skill that lowers taxes on NPC-owned Custom Offices? Even make it a rank8 skill or something, CONCORD and Interbus know how to negotiate. =D
Would be a win-win situation for both parties, players that run PI would pay more "tolerable" taxes and because a PI-alt would take more time to train CCP would extract more money from the player.
Pre-Crucible, there were 3 mayor NPC-taxes/fees: NPC corp tax, refining tax (and refining waste by extension), sales tax/broker fee. Of those, the refining tax and the various market taxes are both affected by skills and/or standing. The NPC corp tax was included to get people into player corps, so lowering it via skills would have been very, very illogical.
Of course, you could also make CO taxes dependent on standings torwards Concord/interbus, but that would (in my oppinion) disadvantage lowsec-players, as most of them have quite bad secstatus.
But in general, I agree with CCPs move to make PI more player-reliant, but the conjunction between the doubled tax and the massive increase in base value was in my oppinion a bit too much. |
disasteur
Tellcomtec Incorporated. Preatoriani
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:01:00 -
[638] - Quote
Chiralos wrote:CCP should have made a larger announcement when they decided to change the tax rates from being based on the old fiat values to market-based one. Also - Concorde and Interbus tax rates going to fluctuate with the market ? What is the mechanism for this ?
That being said ...
This is the way things should be heading. You either buy the security you need to run your PI operation from Concorde or from other players.
they could have made a announcement of a mile long, fact is PI was a good income for many people who spend there time to perfect it, now come a official who says hey they make 90% profit? come on show me the figures
extracting was when introduced for the first time a bit of, it was easy and you made really good isk with it, then ccp came along and chanched it, it became a lot harder to extract, a lot quit extracting and went to the market to buy there P0/P1 or what ever P they needed and carry on with that... prices went up, but not a big deal there was a reasonable profit to gain with some market scooping and self extracting you could come a long way, so we made cash... thank god for us the carebears, now comes ccp and yet again they chanched it, lets bring the taxes up screw the highsec carebears once again. writing all this i ask.....
are CCP actually goons? |
Vihura
Vihura Cor
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:12:00 -
[639] - Quote
All complaining about taxes are rateards just recalculate all prices and start sell at new price if you sell at old price you are dump as hell and you deserve to lose.Evil |
disasteur
Tellcomtec Incorporated. Preatoriani
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:28:00 -
[640] - Quote
Vihura wrote:All complaining about taxes are rateards just recalculate all prices and start sell at new price if you sell at old price you are dump as hell and you deserve to lose. Fuuck some people just don't want adapt and learn
i could say your an idiot... but it wont... oops i just did but who cares |
|
Tora Oni
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
44
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:29:00 -
[641] - Quote
Madlof Chev wrote:WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE WHINE. Just deal with your stupid problems and get on with it. Fly some spaceships instead or something, sheesh. Just cause your brain cant handle the iq level of the problem, doesnt mean there is no problem
And I am pro tax at 17%. This forces players to setup their own poco's, which gives EVE something extra. Like more PVP options near your poco's, hiring mercs if your corp isnt big enough to defend, setting up your own taxes, making profit from it etc etc...
It would have been better to slowly turn the tax up. Its the same as setting plex prices to 10B, without notice / detailed info. |
Crappeshotte
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:34:00 -
[642] - Quote
Ahrman Vanaheim wrote:...those complaining, probably don't understand that this is a mess that CCP can't back down from. They aren't going to give up their only, rather tenuous, link for EVE to DUST and possibly the millions invested in that game by reverting to the old system, despite enraging large numbers of High/Low/WH PI industrialists. DUST with no EVE link, though possible, would be pointless. We can only hope at this stage that DUST isn't a complete flop. I for one am interested in at least trying it.
Good Luck CCP, I just hope this calculated gamble works and you don't lose more from this than you gain from DUST.
Just out of interest, is DUST going to permit combat or other offensive operations to be conducted against PI facilities in hisec? Is DUST going to be subject to the same rules of engagement as everything else in hisec, or are Concord going to have no jurisdiction on planet surfaces? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
187
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:42:00 -
[643] - Quote
Crappeshotte wrote:Just out of interest, is DUST going to permit combat or other offensive operations to be conducted against PI facilities in hisec? Is DUST going to be subject to the same rules of engagement as everything else in hisec, or are Concord going to have no jurisdiction on planet surfaces? Nobody outside CCP knows. Perhaps not even them. But some of us are guessing DUST will be based around customs offices in some way. Perhaps via a surface equivalent to the CO.
PI installations are so cheap, nobody is going to pay Dusties to destroy or defend them, so they will need something like the POCOs, that aggregates several PI colonies into a single valuable target. |
Zedia Zhane
The Lagrangian Mechanics Intrepid Crossing
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:50:00 -
[644] - Quote
From the original blog: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2899
" The Customs Office Gantry itself is a 9600 m3 compact structure that is manufactured in assembly lines in stations (for exact materials, see the Material Shopping List) and must be anchored no further than 100,000 km from the planet."
I just tried to anchor a Gantry 86,000 km from a planet, and got a message saying it can't be anchored more than 5,666 km from the planet. I suppose, technically, it is true that it "must be anchored no further than 100,000 km from the planet." But that statement is, at best, highly misleading.
Also, there's a known bug with Amarr outposts.
"The taxes you paid before can be translated into this new system, and that would equal 5% tax in a player owned customs office. So, if you set the tax to 5% you will pay the exact same as before." (boldface emphasis is mine).
So changing it by a factor of 100x apparently qualifies as "the exact same." In the way that 10 is exactly the same as 1,000.
Note that neither of these "facts" was amended, clarified, or changed in this dev blog (at http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3075 ) |
Baki Yuku
Nordgoetter Viking Empire
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:51:00 -
[645] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Crappeshotte wrote:Just out of interest, is DUST going to permit combat or other offensive operations to be conducted against PI facilities in hisec? Is DUST going to be subject to the same rules of engagement as everything else in hisec, or are Concord going to have no jurisdiction on planet surfaces? Nobody outside CCP knows. Perhaps not even them. But some of us are guessing DUST will be based around customs offices in some way. Perhaps via a surface equivalent to the CO. PI installations are so cheap, nobody is going to pay Dusties to destroy or defend them, so they will need something like the POCOs, that aggregates several PI colonies into a single valuable target.
LOL if they make it possible to bombard a planet with titans (DD) or Dreads I'll just f!uck!ng doomsday these stup!d DUST f!u!cks all the time... Killing their fun will be my joy:) |
Crappeshotte
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:52:00 -
[646] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Crappeshotte wrote:Just out of interest, is DUST going to permit combat or other offensive operations to be conducted against PI facilities in hisec? Is DUST going to be subject to the same rules of engagement as everything else in hisec, or are Concord going to have no jurisdiction on planet surfaces? Nobody outside CCP knows. Perhaps not even them. But some of us are guessing DUST will be based around customs offices in some way. Perhaps via a surface equivalent to the CO. PI installations are so cheap, nobody is going to pay Dusties to destroy or defend them, so they will need something like the POCOs, that aggregates several PI colonies into a single valuable target.
PI installations might be cheap to us, flying spaceships, but to groundhogs they might represent major assets. And to keep losing them would be a pain to me: someone knocks out my command centre and the whole caboodle goes pop, along with all the commodities I had stored there.
I and my alts run sixteen hisec planets, and only three of them have other players' installations on them. Given the fracas the new taxes have caused, I would imagine hisec PI will become less popular rather than more. Aggregating PI colonies is not going to be easy. I would say the tax changes are a step back for DUST, unless CCP have more plans for planets... |
|
CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
1134
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 11:59:00 -
[647] - Quote
Hey guys.
Some of you have rightly pointed out that this last tax rate change should have been better communicated and I just want to clear that part up. We did have a plan to communicate it properly and the Game Designers had the text ready, but then the ball got dropped between us in the middle of the messaging storm prior to launch. I guess that one's on me.
I know that "I was totally gonna" doesn't make up for not doing something, but I want to extend my apologies for any inconvenience and confusion this caused.
The designers will probably jump in and take some questions on the mechanics soon. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |
|
Dario Kaelenter
ACME HARDWARE
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 12:24:00 -
[648] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:I come bearing news about tax rates from CCP Omen and Team Pi: --- The higher PI taxes are deliberate. We have gotten a fair amount of petitions regarding high taxes for PI goods. We want to take a moment and assure you that it is deliberate and explain why. The taxes that were introduced with the PI feature in Tyrannis did not change as the market value for PI goods went up significantly. This meant that until recently, PI industrialists have enjoyed profit margins of up about 99% without much risk. With the Player Owned Customs Office feature we are changing how PI products come to the market and we are encouraging players to own and operate these offices. With the old tax levels it would be nearly unfeasible to operate a Customs Office and most of our goals with the feature were at risk of being missed. By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, we now have a foundation for a much more interesting feature that we believe will create many opportunities in New Eden. For more information please see the EVElopedia article for the Player Owned Customs Office: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeRegards CCP Omen on behalf of team Pi
I think the changes are reasonable in a game play context as it does add more control and influence back into players hands.
When PI came along Trade items to fuel POSs jumped up to 10 times their old NPC costs .... cause they could. People could have sold them lower tho chose not to as they were able to sell them at the levels they could easy enough. This may indicate that there was not enough supply in the market. The only actual costs if u were working from extractor up were the taxes and time which can be tricky to put into isk terms
I only started PI as a way to feed POSs and keep the cost of making T2 items lower. As I understand many other industry POS owners also did rather than pay much higher market rates resulting in running costs that would need to be passed on thru more expensive tech 2/3 products.
I still see people using hi sec planets mainly to make small quantities of PI product for hi sec POS or as factory planets once they get over the price shock and pass it on. Also Lo sec planets in most cases have more reasonable quantities of resources tho people may change their colony set ups to avoid unnecessary export/import.
The ones that will benefit better would be those that have secure systems or good support on call and can then set up their own POCOs in lo or null sec. They can then set minimal tax rates and may one day recoup the cost of their POCO while also enjoying lower taxes as before.
The idea of tying the tax to market values is reasonable though where CCP went wrong way taking the November market average rather than say the past 3 or 6 mths average mainly as in November prices were already on the rise due to advance stocking up and speculating on items due to changes planned for POS Fuel blocks and also this PI office change.
Robotics for example were trading at about 45K a unit June/July/Aug and started trading up around 50 to 52K again in sept but come pre patch announcements and in Oct/Nov they started heading to almost 70k a unit and now about 85K a unit (highest ever since PI was first introduced)
This month's prices for Tier 4 items are also thru the roof mainly due to the extra demand for them to build POCOs
If taxes continually adjust based on just the previous month's average then anomalies like these will make it much harder to encourage prices down as ppl will be still adjusting up to compensate for their increased costs.
Basing the tax on quarterly (if not 6 monthly) averages would therefor make more sense.
|
Jade Nexia
CHON THE R0NIN
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 12:33:00 -
[649] - Quote
I'm stick with my feel that CCP has no clue about PI and how they did setup planetary resources.
I'm pure P1 producer who sell it to market. I now with 17% tax does pay daily 1mil per planet for export. I operate at rich planets in C1,C2 and C3 WH with direct connection into HigSec (static exists). I do operate with 9 characters on 45 planets each character is setup in own WH-space.
I harvest each planet in WH-space no longer than 20 days, because planets goes depleted! Notice this planet get depleted after 20 days! Production per head goes from 300 under 200. Even I do move my extractor or rebuild whole site every 5 to 6 days I got planet depleted after 20 days. My skills in Planetology and Advanced Planetology are on level 5 and all 9 characters. I must leave WH and find another one WH with not used planets at least once per month.
Per whole my harvesting period I would only pay up to 25 mil per planet when I do accept 17% Interbus Taxes. I have no reason to put up any POCO worth 200mil simply because I can't pack it up when I don't use planet anymore.
20 day WH cycle cost
- 300 mil inital cost
- 1bil exporting taxes
- ------------
- 1,3 bil ISK total
profit is 5 bil (from sale) - 1,3 bil (cost) = 3,7 bil
setting up 45 PoCO would cost 9 bil, profit would be -5,3 bil
I can't produce PI with all 9 characters at same 5 planets because then planets goes dry in one week at all. Nobody from CCP really did realize that, even most rich planets in WH space can't support harvetsing by more than single person per 20 days. If I mention harvesting I do mean real intensive drilling with 1 day 45 minutes cycle to archieve cycle per harvester 15 minutes with 10 heads and 10 basic factories to reprocess all harvested materials to P1 in 24 hours cycle. Planet goes dry after 20 days and I'm unable to find any spot to feed up 10 factories afterall. When my resource production fall under 50k raw materials/hour I must abandon planet.
Resource regen is pure trues sec based so -1.0 planets have best resource regen and even these planets goes dry after 20 days. In 0.0 where average true sec are -0.4 is not possible even maintain setup with 10 factories and one harvester to keep these 10 factories up and running. If there would be POCO then that planet would be shared by more than 1 person and planet goes even dry sooner and is impossible to feed 10 factories with raw materials.
Planet with POCO and harvested by more than one person runing multiple sites would not produce enough resources to generate enough profit to justify time hastle with PI. Not to mention it is true pain to operate (setup via) clicking everything on planet. It was and still remains only poor man "job" in EVE.
To sum it up:
- Nobody did count factor that planet has limited resource regens, so more people using planet mean less profit for everyone. Implied more people operating on harvest planet doesn't mean faster POCO investment return.
- Only production planets having POCOs will pay up back POCO, but as I know one production planet need harvest P1 materials at least from 4 to 5 planets.
At end I have no problem with POCOs because I see that in my WH space these will not be replaced anytime soon. Anyway I stop my operations for now (abandoned all 45 planets) and sitting on my stockpile of P1 producst now worth around 20 bil and I'm sure it will be doubled may be trippled in next two weeks. Cheers CCP Omen, you really got back in old CCP track, we have always right. But customers vote with theirs legs, you should remember it.
I will see if POCOs will get replaced in WH space or not. If POCOs get replaced or Interbus COs will get destroyed I will stop doing PI. I will not resub 4 accounts and will have only remaining 2 active with 60 to 80 bil buffer to play with it. I wouldn't loose only who will loose will be CCP, even I do buy PLEXes these plexes still someone did buy for real money from CCP. I don't expect that people in WH-space would like to share theirs planets with me.
BTW DUST is just "hype", because who does play PS3 games would play it not more than few months. Good new game on PS3 come out to market every few months. As oposite EVE does exists since 2003 I never saw any kind of game on consoles to sold and be played so long. You shooting own legs with this aproach and changing maket focus on things called "hype".
|
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
77
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 12:35:00 -
[650] - Quote
Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information.
We are not the GÇ£old CCPGÇ¥ that try to trick you, IGÇÖd argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now.
Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price.
P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market) P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market) P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market) P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market) P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market)
The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like GÇ£no taxGÇ¥ - > GÇ£taxGÇ¥.
It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid.
One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog here.
The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.
I will continue to answer your questions in this thread. Regards CCP Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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|
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
65
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 12:43:00 -
[651] - Quote
Both of these changes were made after the second dev blog.
The exact anchoring restrictions are on the wiki page and I highly recommend players who are setting up their own customs office have a read through the information there.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice
Also the construction at Amarr outposts bug has been fixed internally and will be deployed to TQ early next week. CCP Nullarbor | Exotic Dancer |
|
Jade Nexia
CHON THE R0NIN
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 12:46:00 -
[652] - Quote
"CCP Omen" wrote: Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information.
We are not the GÇ£old CCPGÇ¥ that try to trick you, IGÇÖd argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now.
Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price.
P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market) P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market) P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market) P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market) P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market)
The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like GÇ£no taxGÇ¥ - > GÇ£taxGÇ¥.
It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid.
One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog
The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.
I will continue to answer your questions in this thread. Regards CCP Omen
Dear Omen. You did pick as taxation base most expensive PI producs and bad time, after announce of POCO prices hyperinflate. Did you moticed that 80% products are soled under 50% peice markup of your picked goods? Like Electrolytes? I' do my PI harvesting over 7 months and average price for electolytes was around 300 not 450. Not to mention other comodities like bacteria with average price around 80?
That just for my part of P1 producs because I never was interested in higher PI producs, because is just pain in ass to operate PI, setup factory, route product, route materials to factory etc. there is no easy interface for PI. I think that will be target when you announced changes in PI, to simplify UI make it less clicky. Posibility to setup more factories per one click, automatic production routing like automatic feeding with resources to factory from launchpad. Posibility to use and move goods to Storage from Launchpad not by using expeditions, reuse of command center. ETC. PI need whole big rework, but you did pick up completely unnecessary thing like POCO. Please learn to listen, right? |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
61
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 12:47:00 -
[653] - Quote
The fact that you cannot retrieve and redeploy PI hardware is a major issue. POCO doesn't feel like an investment if you cannot take it down.
Compared to this, in POS reaction business all hardware that is used can be relocated and reused. You pay for the JF fuel and for the POS running costs, but relocation never means loss of production hardware.
Fix this for PI and I'm sure people are a lot more happy putting up ISKies for POCO hardware (and taking risks in low/null sec with command centers).
Also with POSes you can abandon the hardware "dead in space" for later restart, with PI you are limited by number of planets you can have command centers on, so you cannot abandon CCs/factories and set up elsewhere, only to return to the initial place at a later date.
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Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
188
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 12:58:00 -
[654] - Quote
Omen,
I advocated and support the tax change, because otherwise the POCO feature would have been dead in the water. It was a very welcome reaction.
However, I think basing it on the november prices was a minor oversight. By then, prices had already spiked due to speculation caused by your own devblog. Because it was speculation, and not an actual market adjustment, it didn't affect all items equally.
The effect of this is minor, but it does unbalance how much it costs to export an item vs how it costs to export the materials to build it, for example. |
Dario Kaelenter
ACME HARDWARE
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:06:00 -
[655] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information. We are not the GÇ£old CCPGÇ¥ that try to trick you, IGÇÖd argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now. Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price. P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market) P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market) P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market) P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market) P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market) The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like GÇ£no taxGÇ¥ - > GÇ£taxGÇ¥. It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid. One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog here. The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved. I will continue to answer your questions in this thread. Regards CCP Omen
Per my previous post basing the tax on market values still seems like a good move going forward tho I think the heart of the problem is the rate picked/calculated as the Market Rate in setting the new taxes.
You unfortunately picked a point where prices had already been impacted on by the specter of this change and the PI Fuel Block change so had already reacted upwards a fair amount.
Prior to these announcements Robotics had settled down below 50K isk a unit and Broadcast node around 900 K so again I feel it would have been more diligent to have opted for a quarterly average market value to pick as the base for the tax.
Possibly also having the rate slowly increase to this new rate over the course of a week could have reduced the sudden shock factor !? |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
619
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:09:00 -
[656] - Quote
There seems to be a problem with setting the tax rate on these damned things. I set it to 0% to avoid screwing over my allies in the hole and after every downtime it's back to 5%. No one else has the authority to mess with them, so there appears to be a bug. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
disasteur
Tellcomtec Incorporated. Preatoriani
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:10:00 -
[657] - Quote
(The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved. )
so making isk is ok as long as there a lot of pew pew in it?
FYI trading is risk free to, only people who dont pay atention to it have a risk to buy the wrong things at the wrong time
|
MirrorGod
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:14:00 -
[658] - Quote
An excellent and needed change. This is another step towards making low-sec and 0.0 more populated. I look forward to seeing what kind of action this brings http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6070/6122338654_85e9bbfca9_z.jpg |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
619
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:20:00 -
[659] - Quote
MirrorGod wrote:An excellent and needed change. This is another step towards making low-sec and 0.0 more populated. I look forward to seeing what kind of action this brings
How is driving non-PvP oriented people out of doing their PI in low sec going to help increase the population there? Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Tomytronic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
23
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:26:00 -
[660] - Quote
I really like this change because the manner in which it was enacted ended up punishing heavily the small-time PI players and granting huge fortunes to those with the isk to speculate on the market. It's like it was insider trading but you didn't have to be 'inside', you just had to understand that CCP would mess it up. |
|
Randomus Namus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:32:00 -
[661] - Quote
Thank you, Omen, for providing the opportunity for the wonderous hordes of space peasants to display their ignorance, stupidity, and desire for unfounded statistics and pointless whining for my entertainment.
P.s. Thanks for both a new isk sink and a large shock to the market. It's quite enjoyable considering the wholesale lack of economic understanding present in highsec.
P.p.s. It must be profit, your time is ~free~ |
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:39:00 -
[662] - Quote
@ CCP Omen
I don't disagree that the old taxes were extremely small, and few people seemed to complain at double tax rates. This is probably proof that they were way too low.
But did you take into account how often goods are taxed? I wouldn't know the numbers myself, but I can imagine P4 goods get taxed quite a few times during their life cycle.
A 10-17% tax rate seems massive for something that might get double-dipped by taxes several times over. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
619
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:47:00 -
[663] - Quote
Sarina Berghil wrote:@ CCP Omen
I don't disagree that the old taxes were extremely small, and few people seemed to complain at double tax rates. This is probably proof that they were way too low.
But did you take into account how often goods are taxed? I wouldn't know the numbers myself, but I can imagine P4 goods get taxed quite a few times during their life cycle.
A 10-17% tax rate seems massive for something that might get double-dipped by taxes several times over.
For me, and many I know, P0 is process to P1 on gathering planets. These P1 products (reactive metals, etc.) are then sent to a different planet for further processing. So basically the materials are winding up being taxed three times... export as P1, import as P1 and export as refined... P2 thru P4 depending.
For example, 5000 precious metals cost you about 1M in taxes before they even start refining to P2 and up, then you get screwed again exporting the final products. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:48:00 -
[664] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:Hey guys.
Some of you have rightly pointed out that this last tax rate change should have been better communicated and I just want to clear that part up. We did have a plan to communicate it properly and the Game Designers had the text ready, but then the ball got dropped between us in the middle of the messaging storm prior to launch. I guess that one's on me.
I know that "I was totally gonna" doesn't make up for not doing something, but I want to extend my apologies for any inconvenience and confusion this caused.
The designers will probably jump in and take some questions on the mechanics.
While I know many probably do think 'this is not good enough', I actually do applaud a dev for jumping in and making such a statement. I know how balls can get dropped in the crunch before a major release and can empthize.
I think the real test though will come from how CCP actually addresses the concerns. I think some have merit behind them and might point out cases/play styles CCP did not think of or, more likely, group-think kinda hid. CCP's dev team has always had an internal bais towards a particular playstyle/endgame and can get really excited about how new features can fit into that goal... and sometimes forget that a big piece of the playerbase are very different from them. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:49:00 -
[665] - Quote
Jade Nexia wrote:"CCP Omen" wrote: Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information.
We are not the GÇ£old CCPGÇ¥ that try to trick you, IGÇÖd argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now.
Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price.
P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market) P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market) P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market) P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market) P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market)
The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like GÇ£no taxGÇ¥ - > GÇ£taxGÇ¥.
It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid.
One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog
The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.
I will continue to answer your questions in this thread. Regards CCP Omen
Dear Omen. You did pick as taxation base most expensive PI producs and bad time, after announce of POCO prices hyperinflate. Did you moticed that 80% products are soled under 50% peice markup of your picked goods? Like Electrolytes? I' do my PI harvesting over 7 months and average price for electolytes was around 300 not 450. Not to mention other comodities like bacteria with average price around 80? That just for my part of P1 producs because I never was interested in higher PI producs, because is just pain in ass to operate PI, setup factory, route product, route materials to factory etc. there is no easy interface for PI. I think that will be target when you announced changes in PI, to simplify UI make it less clicky. Posibility to setup more factories per one click, automatic production routing like automatic feeding with resources to factory from launchpad. Posibility to use and move goods to Storage from Launchpad not by using expeditions, reuse of command center. ETC. PI need whole big rework, but you did pick up completely unnecessary thing like POCO. Please learn to listen, right?
It is entirely possible that the tax base has to be tuned after further investigation the same way as we re-balance other stuff. The foundation in market prices will however not likely change.
Regards Omen
Game Designer Team Pi |
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
194
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:50:00 -
[666] - Quote
Sarina Berghil wrote:But did you take into account how often goods are taxed? I wouldn't know the numbers myself, but I can imagine P4 goods get taxed quite a few times during their life cycle.
A 10-17% tax rate seems massive for something that might get double-dipped by taxes several times over. Each import/export step adds 1.5 times the taxed amount, so yea, it gets passed on quite a bit.
At first I thought this was a bad idea, but on the other hand, it encourages export of P2 instead of P1 from your harvest planet, discouraging massive strip mining and allowing for more people per planet (see a few posts up, where someone is talking about basically slash and burn agriculture, depleting planets with a single colony then moving on). |
|
CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:51:00 -
[667] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:The fact that you cannot retrieve and redeploy PI hardware is a major issue. POCO doesn't feel like an investment if you cannot take it down.
Compared to this, in POS reaction business all hardware that is used can be relocated and reused. You pay for the JF fuel and for the POS running costs, but relocation never means loss of production hardware.
Fix this for PI and I'm sure people are a lot more happy putting up ISKies for POCO hardware (and taking risks in low/null sec with command centers).
Also with POSes you can abandon the hardware "dead in space" for later restart, with PI you are limited by number of planets you can have command centers on, so you cannot abandon CCs/factories and set up elsewhere, only to return to the initial place at a later date.
I like this. What you can currently do is try and find a "buyer" and use the "Transfer ownership" function to transfer the ownership. Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
|
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:52:00 -
[668] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Omen,
I advocated and support the tax change, because otherwise the POCO feature would have been dead in the water. It was a very welcome reaction.
However, I think basing it on the november prices was a minor oversight. By then, prices had already spiked due to speculation caused by your own devblog. Because it was speculation, and not an actual market adjustment, it didn't affect all items equally.
The effect of this is minor, but it does unbalance how much it costs to export an item vs how it costs to export the materials to build it, for example.
Thank you, this is very constructive feedback that we will look into! Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
|
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:52:00 -
[669] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:The fact that you cannot retrieve and redeploy PI hardware is a major issue. POCO doesn't feel like an investment if you cannot take it down.
Compared to this, in POS reaction business all hardware that is used can be relocated and reused. You pay for the JF fuel and for the POS running costs, but relocation never means loss of production hardware.
Fix this for PI and I'm sure people are a lot more happy putting up ISKies for POCO hardware (and taking risks in low/null sec with command centers).
Also with POSes you can abandon the hardware "dead in space" for later restart, with PI you are limited by number of planets you can have command centers on, so you cannot abandon CCs/factories and set up elsewhere, only to return to the initial place at a later date.
I was actually very surprised that only the command centers were market items, and all the other PI units just sort of came out of nowhere and had to be destroyed and repurchased to move.
Maybe it is because of the Dust link.. but I kept hoping that they would just add defenses and make planetary objects targetable (thus vulnerable to wardecs) and actual infrastructure buildable/movable. PI, as it stands.. does not really seem to 'fit' EvE |
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:57:00 -
[670] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Sarina Berghil wrote:But did you take into account how often goods are taxed? I wouldn't know the numbers myself, but I can imagine P4 goods get taxed quite a few times during their life cycle.
A 10-17% tax rate seems massive for something that might get double-dipped by taxes several times over. Each import/export step adds 1.5 times the taxed amount, so yea, it gets passed on quite a bit. At first I thought this was a bad idea, but on the other hand, it encourages export of P2 instead of P1 from your harvest planet, discouraging massive strip mining and allowing for more people per planet (see a few posts up, where someone is talking about basically slash and burn agriculture, depleting planets with a single colony then moving on).
Thats something I thought of as well, it does encourage more varied approaches of how to setup installations. More variables in the equation can be a good thing.
Still when a P4 item is sold, 30% of the price is probably taxes. It seems massive to me, and I can't help worry a bit at what it will do to related industries and activities. I don't think Eve has seen that kind of taxation before.
|
|
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:57:00 -
[671] - Quote
Sarina Berghil wrote:@ CCP Omen
I don't disagree that the old taxes were extremely small, and few people seemed to complain at double tax rates. This is probably proof that they were way too low.
But did you take into account how often goods are taxed? I wouldn't know the numbers myself, but I can imagine P4 goods get taxed quite a few times during their life cycle.
A 10-17% tax rate seems massive for something that might get double-dipped by taxes several times over.
We did take that into account but if we did it successfully, only time will tell. There is a 50% discount to import that is a little hard to spot so that helps a bit. Secondly, we have done some simulations in excel and there are some interesting opportunities to optimize your PI setup to minimize the amount of import/exports nececarry. We beleive you will figure this out and perhaps even enjoy doing it.
What we also hope will happen is that cheap lowsec POCOs are used to assemble the most expensive parts and thereby spreading the risk between highsec and lowsec but that's just me speculating.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
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Nekopyat
Nee-Co
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:58:00 -
[672] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Sarina Berghil wrote: A 10-17% tax rate seems massive for something that might get double-dipped by taxes several times over.
For me, and many I know, P0 is process to P1 on gathering planets. These P1 products (reactive metals, etc.) are then sent to a different planet for further processing. So basically the materials are winding up being taxed three times... export as P1, import as P1 and export as refined... P2 thru P4 depending. For example, 5000 precious metals cost you about 1M in taxes before they even start refining to P2 and up, then you get screwed again exporting the final products.
This is one of the things I think is a significant concern, since for hi sec at least this change wipes out specialization of planets.. factory worlds are now much more expensive to operate.
In the real world, this is generally handled by a finer grained tariff system, where goods are only really taxed when they leave the final stage for market.
Hrm.... I wonder if this could be solved by adding a 'transfer between worlds' option.. maybe an alternative to the spaceport, with a rate based off volume rather then value (since it is an intermediate product that is not being transported for sale)... or maybe a 'package for transfer' option that results in blocks of goods that can only be imported back to other world and have no market value (or can not even be put on the market), so exporting/importing those are cheap.
This is how real life states tend to handle this situation. But taxing the value of goods being transported within a company from remote factory to remote factory? That would be insane. |
Thermos Cavy
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 13:58:00 -
[673] - Quote
=troll warning=
From stolen tape:
=ssshhhhh...=
Goons Chief: Hey CCP, we need more meat in lowsec! CCP: So what? Goons chief: We wont buy plexes and we will ruin all if you wont do anything with that! CCP: Maybe we launch POCO and ruin PI stuff market? Goons chief: Not bad, but we need more from you. CCP: Maybe we will help you with market spec on Heavy water, Oxy iso and Polytextiles? Goons chief: We are not interested in Polytextiles at the moment.
=shhhhhh...=
=/troll warning=
|
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:02:00 -
[674] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: We did take that into account but if we did it successfully, only time will tell. There is a 50% discount to import that is a little hard to spot so that helps a bit. Secondly, we have done some simulations in excel and there are some interesting opportunities to optimize your PI setup to minimize the amount of import/exports nececarry. We beleive you will figure this out and perhaps even enjoy doing it.
I did notice some interesting opportunities, thats the positive side :-)
I'm not really worried about PI as a profession, I think theres a lot of profit to be made at least for now, I'm more worried about what it does to the rest of the economy. But thats mostly unfounded speculation on my part. |
|
CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:05:00 -
[675] - Quote
Jade Nexia wrote:I'm stick with my feel that CCP has no clue about PI and how they did setup planetary resources. I'm pure P1 producer who sell it to market. I now with 17% tax does pay daily 1mil per planet for export. I operate at rich planets in C1,C2 and C3 WH with direct connection into HigSec (static exists). I do operate with 9 characters on 45 planets each character is setup in own WH-space. I harvest each planet in WH-space no longer than 20 days, because planets goes depleted! Notice this planet get depleted after 20 days! Production per head goes from 300 under 200. Even I do move my extractor or rebuild whole site every 5 to 6 days I got planet depleted after 20 days. My skills in Planetology and Advanced Planetology are on level 5 and all 9 characters. I must leave WH and find another one WH with not used planets at least once per month. Per whole my harvesting period I would only pay up to 25 mil per planet when I do accept 17% Interbus Taxes. I have no reason to put up any POCO worth 200mil simply because I can't pack it up when I don't use planet anymore. 20 day WH cycle cost
- 300 mil inital cost
- 1bil exporting taxes
- ------------
- 1,3 bil ISK total
profit is 5 bil (from sale) - 1,3 bil (cost) = 3,7 bil. BTW this calculation include new taxes, I had same profit before new taxes as after taxes, because simply market prices goes up factoring new taxes. So I don't cry river I just pointing it up. My profit would be same meay be better, because a lot people really quit PI as may be I would too. setting up 45 PoCO would cost 9 bil, profit would be -5,3 bil I can't produce PI with all 9 characters at same 5 planets because then planets goes dry in one week at all. Nobody from CCP really did realize that, even most rich planets in WH space can't support harvetsing by more than single person per 20 days. If I mention harvesting I do mean real intensive drilling with 1 day 45 minutes cycle to archieve cycle per harvester 15 minutes with 10 heads and 10 basic factories to reprocess all harvested materials to P1 in 24 hours cycle. Planet goes dry after 20 days and I'm unable to find any spot to feed up 10 factories afterall. When my resource production fall under 50k raw materials/hour I must abandon planet. Resource regen is pure trues sec based so -1.0 planets have best resource regen and even these planets goes dry after 20 days. In 0.0 where average true sec are -0.4 is not possible even maintain setup with 10 factories and one harvester to keep these 10 factories up and running. If there would be POCO then that planet would be shared by more than 1 person and planet goes even dry sooner and is impossible to feed 10 factories with raw materials. Planet with POCO and harvested by more than one person runing multiple sites would not produce enough resources to generate enough profit to justify time hastle with PI. Not to mention it is true pain to operate (setup via) clicking everything on planet. It was and still remains only poor man "job" in EVE. To sum it up:
- Nobody did count factor that planet has limited resource regens, so more people using planet mean less profit for everyone. Implied more people operating on harvest planet doesn't mean faster POCO investment return.
- Only production planets having POCOs will pay up back POCO, but as I know one production planet need harvest P1 materials at least from 4 to 5 planets.
At end I have no problem with POCOs because I see that in my WH space these will not be replaced anytime soon. Anyway I stop my operations for now (abandoned all 45 planets) and sitting on my stockpile of P1 producst now worth around 20 bil and I'm sure it will be doubled may be trippled in next two weeks. Cheers CCP Omen, you really got back in old CCP track, we have always right. But customers vote with theirs legs, you should remember it. I will see if POCOs will get replaced in WH space or not. If POCOs get replaced or Interbus COs will get destroyed I will stop doing PI. I will not resub 4 accounts and will have only remaining 2 active with 60 to 80 bil buffer to play with it. I wouldn't loose only who will loose will be CCP, even I do buy PLEXes these plexes still someone did buy for real money from CCP. I don't expect that people in WH-space would like to share theirs planets with me. BTW DUST is just "hype", because who does play PS3 games would play it not more than few months. Good new game on PS3 come out to market every few months. As oposite EVE does exists since 2003 I never saw any kind of game on consoles to sold and be played so long. You shooting own legs with this aproach and changing maket focus on things called "hype".
We are very aware of where our paycheck come from. Making surgical incisions in EVE like the POCO is very stressful on us and we are closely monitoring the metrics how EVE is doing. It comes down to the fact that we feel the Customs Office was wrongly implemented to begin with and by redeeming that we will upset the customers that have gotten used to the old ways.
You may accuse us of many things, but not for not caring for EVE. She means everything to us and doing open heart surgery on her freaks us out! But we feel she won't survive without occasional course correction.
To your point with all the POCOs I would respond that you should only replace the InterBus POCO that is the bottleneck for your operation and centralize as much of your expensive operations there. This way, with only one or a few POCOs you can cut the overall cost of your network by a lot.
Cheers Omen
Game Designer Team Pi |
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
194
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:05:00 -
[676] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:What we also hope will happen is that cheap lowsec POCOs are used to assemble the most expensive parts and thereby spreading the risk between highsec and lowsec but that's just me speculating. This could happen, but it will take a while, as industrialists will want some sort of guarantee the POCO won't dissapear after 2 days.
It also creates a dilemma for lowsec POCO operators. The planet has more resources than a highsec planet, so it's more valuable, so it doesn't make sense to make it much cheaper to extract stuff than it is in highsec. But to encourage high tier producers, you need a very low tax rate (and you can afford it because their base tax per colony is higher). Which one to choose?
If we could setup different tax rates for different tiers, it could be solved. At the cost of complicating the UI quite a lot. |
Ruareve
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:12:00 -
[677] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Sarina Berghil wrote:@ CCP Omen
I don't disagree that the old taxes were extremely small, and few people seemed to complain at double tax rates. This is probably proof that they were way too low.
But did you take into account how often goods are taxed? I wouldn't know the numbers myself, but I can imagine P4 goods get taxed quite a few times during their life cycle.
A 10-17% tax rate seems massive for something that might get double-dipped by taxes several times over. We did take that into account but if we did it successfully, only time will tell. There is a 50% discount to import that is a little hard to spot so that helps a bit. Secondly, we have done some simulations in excel and there are some interesting opportunities to optimize your PI setup to minimize the amount of import/exports nececarry. We beleive you will figure this out and perhaps even enjoy doing it. What we also hope will happen is that cheap lowsec POCOs are used to assemble the most expensive parts and thereby spreading the risk between highsec and lowsec but that's just me speculating. Regards Omen
First, I think the manufacture of the customs office and having them be a target is a good idea. However I think using tax increase to try and force people into low sec is a bad idea.
A moderate increase in tax making low sec more profitable for those that want to go: good.
An extreme increase in tax rendering high sec PI unprofitable: bad.
The benefits of low and null sec should be an option for those wishing to assume the risk, however in no way does that mean high sec should be punished for not participating in the other options. I doubt anyone would argue that high sec should be more profitable than low sec, but at the same time there needs to be some kind of profit to be had in high sec.
Consider the last quarterly numbers bulletin and the sheer volume of players in high sec. One of the reasons there are more people in high sec is because the average gamer prefers a safer environment. When you start making changes to force people out of high sec there is a very good chance that people who prefer safety will travel to a different game rather than try to play in security areas they don't like.
This change feels more like hiding the carrot and using the stick. Not a good way to keep players interested in a game. |
Amy Elteam
No Bull Ships
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:14:00 -
[678] - Quote
All you people getting mad at CCP are disrespecting the larger number of players who spent a great deal of time analyzing the economics of the pi markets and pushed hard to get the taxation levels to match market values. It was a pleasant surprise to armchair economists like myself when ccp did exactly what we had been suggesting.
This does nothing to destroy pi as a viable way to make isk, all it does is annoy people who don't understand economics. |
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
79
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:15:00 -
[679] - Quote
Dario Kaelenter wrote:CCP Omen wrote:Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information. We are not the GÇ£old CCPGÇ¥ that try to trick you, IGÇÖd argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now. Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price. P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market) P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market) P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market) P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market) P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market) The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like GÇ£no taxGÇ¥ - > GÇ£taxGÇ¥. It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid. One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog here. The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved. I will continue to answer your questions in this thread. Regards CCP Omen Per my previous post basing the tax on market values still seems like a good move going forward tho I think the heart of the problem is the rate picked/calculated as the Market Rate in setting the new taxes. You unfortunately picked a point where prices had already been impacted on by the specter of this change and the PI Fuel Block change so had already reacted upwards a fair amount. Prior to these announcements Robotics had settled down below 50K isk a unit and Broadcast node around 900 K so again I feel it would have been more diligent to have opted for a quarterly average market value to pick as the base for the tax. Possibly also having the rate slowly increase to this new rate over the course of a week could have reduced the sudden shock factor !?
This is a good point that I will take up with the team. Technically it is not difficult to adjust the tariffs. I just want to re-iterate that if we adjust them, it will be to land at a more representative market value, not going back to pre Crucible levels.
Regards Omen
Game Designer Team Pi |
|
Gavjack Bunk
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
73
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:16:00 -
[680] - Quote
I suppose we can look forward to you hammering the bastard living **** out of iskcur- sorry, incursions like you have with hisec PI ?
Or is my finger really not on the pulse of this game any more? |
|
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:30:00 -
[681] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.
This cuts back to one of the long standing issues.. risk vs reward and the steep cutoff between high sec and low sec. I think if there were a more gradual path people would not be as unhappy with this, but for many players, esp solo ones or ones with older hardware, low sec isn't just risk, it is helplessness, and people do not like the feeling that they are not in control of their fate. This is why many people just don't go to low sec even when the carrots are increased,.. the jump in risk is so high that it negates the value. There just isn't enough middle ground.
For instance, I am a solo player. I have tried corporations, but because of my schedule and home-life I simply can not be reliable for group activities. Just not going to happen, so I am never going to have a 'gang' to go take some lowsec with.
I also have older hardware. There have been times where I jump or undock, and actually wake up in station before my screen has even loaded. Even when I can see what is going on, my UI generally does not respond very quickly. It is fine for NPCs since that is a slower activity, but players will generally insta-dead you.
Now, I am ok with taking additional risk for additional profit, but can not easily do this real time risk. In theory this means setting up things like POSes since that is a slower risk BUT here we again run into a steep cutoff problem. POSes are massive investments with high operating costs, there is little room for 'small risk, small reward, you HAVE to invest a major risk in order to do anything.
That is why I think it would have been nice if PI stuff, with its low costs, was attackable. 10-20M of PI I would be willing to risk because I can replace that. 200-400M of POS? Maybe pennies to some, but that is a huge thing for casual players. Even allowing the POCOs in high secs, wardecable, I think would have gone a long way here since a high sec acnorable structure to get that tax reduced (but still have the lower yield worlds) would be an excellent risk/reward tradeoff.
I am really hoping that the planned stuff for smaller in space structures goes though since that might help bridge this. |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
63
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:34:00 -
[682] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:Hey guys.
Some of you have rightly pointed out that this last tax rate change should have been better communicated and I just want to clear that part up. We did have a plan to communicate it properly and the Game Designers had the text ready, but then the ball got dropped between us in the middle of the messaging storm prior to launch. I guess that one's on me.
I know that "I was totally gonna" doesn't make up for not doing something, but I want to extend my apologies for any inconvenience and confusion this caused.
The designers will probably jump in and take some questions on the mechanics.
At this point I would say a complete "PI / POCO devblog" with all current, live data is in order (and perhaps links from the old obsoleted ones to this new one). Lots of people still read the old devblogs and get misled by them. The statement "Taxes are fine, no bug, don't petition" did little more than cause enrage within the less-clued-in highsec carebear crowd.
|
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CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
80
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:41:00 -
[683] - Quote
Nekopyat wrote:CCP Omen wrote: The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.
This cuts back to one of the long standing issues.. risk vs reward and the steep cutoff between high sec and low sec. I think if there were a more gradual path people would not be as unhappy with this, but for many players, esp solo ones or ones with older hardware, low sec isn't just risk, it is helplessness, and people do not like the feeling that they are not in control of their fate. This is why many people just don't go to low sec even when the carrots are increased,.. the jump in risk is so high that it negates the value. There just isn't enough middle ground. For instance, I am a solo player. I have tried corporations, but because of my schedule and home-life I simply can not be reliable for group activities. Just not going to happen, so I am never going to have a 'gang' to go take some lowsec with. I also have older hardware. There have been times where I jump or undock, and actually wake up in station before my screen has even loaded. Even when I can see what is going on, my UI generally does not respond very quickly. It is fine for NPCs since that is a slower activity, but players will generally insta-dead you. Now, I am ok with taking additional risk for additional profit, but can not easily do this real time risk. In theory this means setting up things like POSes since that is a slower risk BUT here we again run into a steep cutoff problem. POSes are massive investments with high operating costs, there is little room for 'small risk, small reward, you HAVE to invest a major risk in order to do anything. That is why I think it would have been nice if PI stuff, with its low costs, was attackable. 10-20M of PI I would be willing to risk because I can replace that. 200-400M of POS? Maybe pennies to some, but that is a huge thing for casual players. Even allowing the POCOs in high secs, wardecable, I think would have gone a long way here since a high sec acnorable structure to get that tax reduced (but still have the lower yield worlds) would be an excellent risk/reward tradeoff. I am really hoping that the planned stuff for smaller in space structures goes though since that might help bridge this.
Excellent feedback! Regards Omen
Game Designer Team Pi |
|
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
63
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:44:00 -
[684] - Quote
Tomytronic wrote:I really like this change because the manner in which it was enacted ended up punishing heavily the small-time PI players and granting huge fortunes to those with the isk to speculate on the market. It's like it was insider trading but you didn't have to be 'inside', you just had to understand that CCP would mess it up.
All the data was out there before the patch was deployed. Granted, some of it hit SISI only a day or two before Crucible launched, so you had to be "on the ball", testing on SISI or following the related player threads very very carefully. The important tidbits were in PI related thread where players spelled out to CCP the fail in their tax plan by pointing out that 5%->10% tax rise would, in practice, be something like 0,3%->0,6% on low tier goods as the tariffs were so borked. I was shocked when CCP realized this themselves and did the logical fix; base taxes on real market prices. Granted, the prices they used were already speculation-inflated, but they were still way more realistic than the initial ones.
Personally I curse having missed the implication / magnitude of the tax change even if I knew about it before the patch and would have invested every single liquid isk I had into PI goods. Now I only secured my own industrial operations against patch day shock with large stockpiles (3 months of fuel etc) and left liquid ISK for other patch day speculation. Sure, that also paid off handsomely ("quadruple your liquid ISK by being first with cloaky hauler load of fuel block BPOs at Jita, see all of them sell at 40M/print in less than five minutes" being the most hilarious one), but in retrospect I should have liquidated some other assets that would not move due to patch and invest more. Need to be more bold next time
Still, there are enough math-deficient PI producers left in EVE (or ones that are doing "dump everything to market, stopping PI" ragequits) that it is still possible to make ISK by trading and speculating in PI, but at this point the profits you can expect from it are no longer astronomical, so the capital need is pretty big.
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tengen san
Triton-TC
9
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:45:00 -
[685] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote: It is entirely possible that the tax base has to be tuned after further investigation the same way as we re-balance other stuff. The foundation in market prices will however not likely change.
Regards Omen
Dear Omen, Thank you for your response, I trusted you will overview the issue and take the feedback to deliberation.
Selecting the month Nov 2011 to adjust the taxable value must be considered as fly by from the point of evaluation as PI prices in Nov 2011 were heavily inflated as reasoned correctly by Jack Dante.
Any correct taxation adjustment should reflect the 12 months market value average. This would reflect a more correct/realistic and sensible adjustment. Ideally including a 12 months average in the single Tier Colum P0 GÇô P4 as well. ItGÇÖs would create a reliable and accepted cornerstone as used in economic evelaution.
If it will work out on the end, along the concerning argues brought forward here, inclusive myself, only the next quarter can tell.
|
Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
252
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 14:48:00 -
[686] - Quote
Nekopyat wrote:This cuts back to one of the long standing issues.. risk vs reward and the steep cutoff between high sec and low sec. This is one of my biggest gripes with the security status system. A lot of game features depend on the sec status, but they all treat the step from 0.45 to 0.44 as a minor change, while for gameplay, it's huge.
It would be really good if there was a (much) bigger rewards difference between high- and low-sec (and also null-sec). |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:00:00 -
[687] - Quote
CCP Omen,
I appreciate you getting back into the discussion. Reading some of your responses has given players just what I think many needed to hear. The silence was deafening.
I've been reading more on the tax rates and I agree with many here that while they cannot get back to the previous level (zero), they really should reflect a more current market price. It would be nice to have a page somewhere in the process detailing what prices would be used when setting the percentage tax so that we have a closer idea to what would be charged. This takes out the ambiguity.
I'm remaining firm on the theory that many of the low-sec lone wolves will exit the market entirely. I think to help offset that, we need more incentive to go to low sec than the possibility of zero taxes. Someone mentioned the steep drop off between high sec and low sec in terms of game functionality. Someone being able to remove POCOs in a system without any of the bonuses of null sec (cap ship support, jump bridge support, cyno jammer support) creates an undue hardship for defenders with minimal incentive.
Again, good to have you back in the discussion. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
133
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:04:00 -
[688] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Omen,
I advocated and support the tax change, because otherwise the POCO feature would have been dead in the water. It was a very welcome reaction.
However, I think basing it on the november prices was a minor oversight. By then, prices had already spiked due to speculation caused by your own devblog. Because it was speculation, and not an actual market adjustment, it didn't affect all items equally.
The effect of this is minor, but it does unbalance how much it costs to export an item vs how it costs to export the materials to build it, for example. Thank you, this is very constructive feedback that we will look into! Regards Omen
There was some speculation based on the first devblog, but on the other hand taxes themselves are now being factored into market prices. The end result may be that things are just about right. I'd give it a few months to see where things equilibrate towards, and then see if anything needs changing.
p.s. non-goon smart, frequent posters about PI include Jack Dant and Scrapyard Bob, if you're seeking out ideas and feedback. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
196
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:04:00 -
[689] - Quote
tengen san wrote: Selecting the month Nov 2011 to adjust the taxable value must be considered as fly by from the point of evaluation as PI prices in Nov 2011 were heavily inflated as reasoned correctly by Jack Dante.
Any correct taxation adjustment should reflect the 12 months market value average. This would reflect a more correct/realistic and sensible adjustment. Ideally including a 12 months average in the single Tier Colum P0 GÇô P4 as well. ItGÇÖs would create a reliable and accepted cornerstone as used in economic evelaution.
Spell my name right, damnit!
But an alternative way to do it, would be to take the average P4 market value for the last 3-6 months, then break it down into it's components. Scrapyard Bob has a few analysis of that in his posts. If the average P4 price is 900k, you set the tax value of P3 to 50k, P2 to 10k, P1 to 312 isk and P0 to 2 isk (doesn't have to take P4 as a reference, probably best to take the one with the highest market volume in isk and adjust up and down).
Then you could apply some scaling in either direction to account for double taxation if you feel that's important. |
Sylthi
Coreward Pan-Galactic Holy Empire of The Unshaven
8
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:06:00 -
[690] - Quote
You guys are all missing the point. These changes have NOTHING to do with making the game better for US (the players) and EVERYTHING to do with what CCP MUST do as a company to stay in business.
Lemme break it down for you, its really not that hard to follow:
1. CCP dreadfully mismanages their game, pi_sses off lots of players, looses accounts, looses revenue, defaults on and has to re-finance a major loan. Therefore, CCP needs money; LOTS of it, FAST.
2. Cut expenses. Easy. Layoff tons of staff (always a company's biggest expense) regardless of what it does to production value or added content to the game. Tell the players we are doing it for the EXACT reason we are ignoring, i.e. the player's benefit.
3. Generate much more revenue with the assets we already have. Easy. We (CCP) are already the biggest real-money trader there has ever been in the game, and we (CCP) directly control the PLEX market with dev-alts who buy up the PLEX. By doing this we: contorl demand and the market, and by simply "trashing" the PLEX that we buy on the dev alt accounts we directly turn "worthless" virtual currency into real world money. But, we need to do this MUCH FASTER than we have before, so, hold massive PLEX sales.
4. We (CCP) know that the Trillions of isk we are pumping carelessly into the economy is going to cause a problem. So, easy, MASSIVELY increase isk sinks in the game by: A. Massive tax rate increases on PI export. Taxes are, and always have been, a DIRECT isk sink. B. Make POCOs player owned, so they can be LOST, thereby creating an entirely new level of isk sink to the PI-POS system. C. Mess with the POS fueling system, increasing resource usage overall, and add BPOs for said new fuel; all DIRECT isk sinks. D. Hold massive PLEX sales so that they are more attractive to buy. E. Contorl PLEX market so that prices skyrocket, thereby isk being sunk at increase rates for people who pay their subs that way, and making them more attractive to the people who get their isk that way.
There are several other levels to CCP's corruption here, but you get the point.
The bottom line is this: CCP is in financial trouble, no matter what they try to spin and say. They have MASSIVE debts because of dreadful mismanagement at the highest levels. By takeing those debts from the banks (that they HAVE to legally pay) and passing them on to the players in the form of PLEX (that they (CCP) can DECIDE weather or not to pay according to their EULA), they are, in effect, giving themselves the OPTION to skip out on their debts and/or pass those debts off onto people who have no legal authority to call them in.
If you haven't stayed informed as to what is going on with CCP in the real world, it is likely difficult for you to follow my very simple logic. If that is the case, I am sorry. But, if nothing else, I hope the post has raised your interest enough to go out and find out MORE about how the ugly facts of the real world commonly bleed over into and determine our "reality" in our make-believe worlds.
Peace all.
Out.
|
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Vihura
Vihura Cor
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:15:00 -
[691] - Quote
Sylthi wrote:You guys are all missing the point. These changes have NOTHING to do with making the game better for US (the players) and EVERYTHING to do with what CCP MUST do as a company to stay in business.
Lemme break it down for you, its really not that hard to follow:
1. CCP dreadfully mismanages their game, pi_sses off lots of players, looses accounts, looses revenue, defaults on and has to re-finance a major loan. Therefore, CCP needs money; LOTS of it, FAST.
2. Cut expenses. Easy. Layoff tons of staff (always a company's biggest expense) regardless of what it does to production value or added content to the game. Tell the players we are doing it for the EXACT reason we are ignoring, i.e. the player's benefit.
3. Generate much more revenue with the assets we already have. Easy. We (CCP) are already the biggest real-money trader there has ever been in the game, and we (CCP) directly control the PLEX market with dev-alts who buy up the PLEX. By doing this we: contorl demand and the market, and by simply "trashing" the PLEX that we buy on the dev alt accounts we directly turn "worthless" virtual currency into real world money. But, we need to do this MUCH FASTER than we have before, so, hold massive PLEX sales.
4. We (CCP) know that the Trillions of isk we are pumping carelessly into the economy is going to cause a problem. So, easy, MASSIVELY increase isk sinks in the game by: A. Massive tax rate increases on PI export. Taxes are, and always have been, a DIRECT isk sink. B. Make POCOs player owned, so they can be LOST, thereby creating an entirely new level of isk sink to the PI-POS system. C. Mess with the POS fueling system, increasing resource usage overall, and add BPOs for said new fuel; all DIRECT isk sinks. D. Hold massive PLEX sales so that they are more attractive to buy. E. Contorl PLEX market so that prices skyrocket, thereby isk being sunk at increase rates for people who pay their subs that way, and making them more attractive to the people who get their isk that way.
There are several other levels to CCP's corruption here, but you get the point.
The bottom line is this: CCP is in financial trouble, no matter what they try to spin and say. They have MASSIVE debts because of dreadful mismanagement at the highest levels. By takeing those debts from the banks (that they HAVE to legally pay) and passing them on to the players in the form of PLEX (that they (CCP) can DECIDE weather or not to pay according to their EULA), they are, in effect, giving themselves the OPTION to skip out on their debts and/or pass those debts off onto people who have no legal authority to call them in.
If you haven't stayed informed as to what is going on with CCP in the real world, it is likely difficult for you to follow my very simple logic. If that is the case, I am sorry. But, if nothing else, I hope the post has raised your interest enough to go out and find out MORE about how the ugly facts of the real world commonly bleed over into and determine our "reality" in our make-believe worlds.
Peace all.
Out.
Looks like you have a lot stuff can I have them ? |
Sylthi
Coreward Pan-Galactic Holy Empire of The Unshaven
8
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:22:00 -
[692] - Quote
Vihura wrote: Looks like you have a lot stuff can I have them ?
And you read my threat to quit....... where? exactly?
Keep reading things that aren't there. CCP likes players like you, especially when they put out promises about "no plans for gold ammo".
What the hell am I doing? Feeding another troll.....
|
Crappeshotte
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:25:00 -
[693] - Quote
disasteur wrote:(The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved. )
so making isk is ok as long as there a lot of pew pew in it?
FYI trading is risk free to, only people who dont pay atention to it have a risk to buy the wrong things at the wrong time
Oh FFS don't go telling them things like that...!!! The last thing we want is trade to be nerfed as well. |
Rip Sword
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:25:00 -
[694] - Quote
Rip Sword wrote:Doesn't sound logical that a costums office gets a percentage of the value of the PI. To me they are providing a service of taking items to and from the planet for you. This fee should be based on volume M3 of the the Import and export. Going down is easier then going up so going up and charging more makes since. They had no part in working and making the product so taking a percentage of the value is not logical. If you import the PI from another source then your not stealing that planets resources and that planet's CO should not get a cut of the PI's value coming in either.
Are the duties on things you bring into the US from other countries based on their size? no. Are they based on what they are? yes and who decides the amount? the government? in this case the government either CCP or another player Corporation? I don't see your side of the argument please explain? [/quote]
In the U.S. costomes, money is collected by the government. We are just handing money to a corperation. That corperation doesn't pay the planet or any government anything. All they are doing is moving are stuff to and from the planet and taking 15%. Multiple times if you import and export. Who gets the money if you CC Launch? |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
619
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:26:00 -
[695] - Quote
Sylthi wrote:*** Conspiracy snip ***
Peace all.
Out.
By the gods... all this time I thought it was a game. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Rip Sword
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:28:00 -
[696] - Quote
Asmodes Reynolds wrote:Mikron Alexarr wrote: [quote=Rip Sword]Doesn't sound logical that a costums office gets a percentage of the value of the PI. To me they are providing a service of taking items to and from the planet for you. This fee should be based on volume M3 of the the Import and export. Going down is easier then going up so going up and charging more makes since. They had no part in working and making the product so taking a percentage of the value is not logical. If you import the PI from another source then your not stealing that planets resources and that planet's CO should not get a cut of the PI's value coming in either.
Are the duties on things you bring into the US from other countries based on their size? no. Are they based on what they are? yes and who decides the amount? the government? in this case the government either CCP or another player Corporation? I don't see your side of the argument please explain? In the U.S. costomes, money is collected by the government. We are just handing money to a corperation. That corperation doesn't pay the planet or any government anything. All they are doing is moving are stuff to and from the planet and taking 15%. Multiple times if you import and export. Who gets the money if you CC Launch? |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:29:00 -
[697] - Quote
Crappeshotte wrote:disasteur wrote:(The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved. )
so making isk is ok as long as there a lot of pew pew in it?
FYI trading is risk free to, only people who dont pay atention to it have a risk to buy the wrong things at the wrong time
Oh FFS don't go telling them things like that...!!! The last thing we want is trade to be nerfed as well.
Cue 5% sales tax and fatter broker fees?
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
427
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:30:00 -
[698] - Quote
First, thank you for providing some insight into the mechanics and issues involved, including the temporary break down in communications.
A few points, I'll keep it as brief as I can (I know, I know, not really my style but I'll try):
1: How often will tax rates be calculated/adjusted? Hopefully frequently, and automatically, based on local market prices over a reasonable period of time.
2: POCO being player owned in High Sec would be excellent, and would be a fine target during war declarations. I know this may be problematic considering fitting into DUST mechanics, but if possible I believe it would be worthwhile. Obviously, some may disagree, feedback would be in order.
If they are made available, I think that it would be highly likely that High Sec Empires would limit how low the tax rate could be set. This would prevent the incentive to try your hand at low sec PI from dropping too low.
3: The initial outlay price of POCO's is a minor stumbling block for many solo/small corp PI producers. They want to participate but the initial outlay of ISK combined with the risk of losing it immediately is holding a large number of people back from participating.
I realize that the price of POCO's is fairly arbitrary, and I'm sure a great deal of research went into it before hand, but personally I'd rather see POCO's going up and down all the time (and from a large number of PI users both large and small) because the costs are more manageable.
They make a great target for smaller scale attackers (roaming gangs) dedicated enough to spend the time to take them out, but the people putting them up to begin with may need the level of financial risk lowered a bit for POCO deployment to be as widespread as we would all like.
4: Perhaps making it possible to place the equivalent of a "For Sale" sign in the POCO screen when you are interested in transferring ownership of an existing structure would facilitated transfers of POCO ownership among the smaller PI industrialists. Or some mechanic to list them on the market or in the contract system.
If this were done it would also be nice to see how long the POCO has been in use at that location, to give you a sense of whether that particular one is a relatively "safe" investment. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:34:00 -
[699] - Quote
disasteur wrote:CCP Omen wrote:(The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved. ) so making isk is ok as long as there a lot of pew pew in it? FYI trading is risk free to, only people who dont pay atention to it have a risk to buy the wrong things at the wrong time This.
But also: No risk? NO RISK? NO RISK?
CCP, what are you smoking? What about the risk associated with the transport of goods to market? Moving high-value goods out of null- and low-sec is filled with risk: Use a hauler or transport ship and get tackled on a gate. Poof, there goes all of your time managing planetary assets and planning. Use a jump freighter and talk about a jump in level of risk.
Furthermore, high-sec hauler and freighter ganks happen frequently.
No risk, my left nut! 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
427
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:38:00 -
[700] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:disasteur wrote:CCP Omen wrote:(The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved. ) so making isk is ok as long as there a lot of pew pew in it? FYI trading is risk free to, only people who dont pay atention to it have a risk to buy the wrong things at the wrong time This. But also: No risk? NO RISK? NO RISK?CCP, what are you smoking? What about the risk associated with the transport of goods to market? Moving high-value goods out of null- and low-sec is filled with risk: Use a hauler or transport ship and get tackled on a gate. Poof, there goes all of your time managing planetary assets and planning. Use a jump freighter and talk about a jump in level of risk. Furthermore, high-sec hauler and freighter ganks happen frequently. No risk, my left nut!
I believe he is speaking about the bulk of PI producers, that are based in High Sec. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
198
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:39:00 -
[701] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:2: POCO being player owned in High Sec would be excellent, and would be a fine target during war declarations. I know this may be problematic considering fitting into DUST mechanics, but if possible I believe it would be worthwhile. Obviously, some may disagree, feedback would be in order. If they are made available, I think that it would be highly likely that High Sec Empires would limit how low the tax rate could be set. This would prevent the incentive to try your hand at low sec PI from dropping too low. This could work fine, with some restrictions, such as a cap on the tax rate, no option to close access to neutrals/reds, and either a conquer mechanic or respawning concord offices.
But first you would need to fix all the current wardec non-exploits, and then some new ones. It would be too easy to transfer the POCO to an alt corp as soon as the wardec notification arrived. Or after it's reinforced. Or while it's being shot, and maybe get people concorded.
Quote:4: Perhaps making it possible to place the equivalent of a "For Sale" sign in the POCO screen when you are interested in transferring ownership of an existing structure would facilitated transfers of POCO ownership among the smaller PI industrialists. Or some mechanic to list them on the market or in the contract system. If this were done it would also be nice to see how long the POCO has been in use at that location, to give you a sense of whether that particular one is a relatively "safe" investment. Nice ideas, but the 1st one can be achieved via the corp description, and the second one through personal observation. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:40:00 -
[702] - Quote
disasteur wrote: FYI trading is risk free to, only people who dont pay atention to it have a risk to buy the wrong things at the wrong time
Not really. While one can trade exclusively in high-sec, those stations/routes are often saturated pretty quickly. Low sec usually has trade goods selling for cheaper and buying for more, so dipping into low sec along your route can turn a nice additional profit.
I used to do this earlier on since replacing a T1 indy was fairly cheap and at the time the client was a bit lighter so I could usually escape with my pod (pre WTZ, so more small camps), it was a good quasi-newbie activity, though it did not scale well over time.
|
Tora Oni
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
47
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:45:00 -
[703] - Quote
To setup a POCO, its about 200M isks per planet. If you need about 4-5 planets to operate...do the maths how long it will take to break even......THEN the profit might start. Who wants to take that risk without being able to take it off line or defend it like a pos ?
POCO +1 TAX 17% +1 Setup costs -1 Implementation POCO -1
My advice would be to lower the setup costs for the POCO. At least until the market is balanced again and most have build their POCO's. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
429
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 15:55:00 -
[704] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:2: POCO being player owned in High Sec would be excellent, and would be a fine target during war declarations. I know this may be problematic considering fitting into DUST mechanics, but if possible I believe it would be worthwhile. Obviously, some may disagree, feedback would be in order. If they are made available, I think that it would be highly likely that High Sec Empires would limit how low the tax rate could be set. This would prevent the incentive to try your hand at low sec PI from dropping too low. This could work fine, with some restrictions, such as a cap on the tax rate, no option to close access to neutrals/reds, and either a conquer mechanic or respawning concord offices. But first you would need to fix all the current wardec non-exploits, and then some new ones. It would be too easy to transfer the POCO to an alt corp as soon as the wardec notification arrived. Or after it's reinforced. Or while it's being shot, and maybe get people concorded. Quote:4: Perhaps making it possible to place the equivalent of a "For Sale" sign in the POCO screen when you are interested in transferring ownership of an existing structure would facilitated transfers of POCO ownership among the smaller PI industrialists. Or some mechanic to list them on the market or in the contract system. If this were done it would also be nice to see how long the POCO has been in use at that location, to give you a sense of whether that particular one is a relatively "safe" investment. Nice ideas, but the 1st one can be achieved via the corp description, and the second one through personal observation.
Good points:
Personally I don't think you should be able to restrict who uses a POCO at all, meaning if you set the tax rate to a favorable level it provides incentive (in all area's of space) for people to try and take advantage of it. If you keep it a bit higher you pay your corp more (which isn't a bad thing) and lessen incentive for outsiders to try to use "your" resources.
With things as they are, however, I would not alter the mechanics for High Sec POCO's at all. Excluding others would be a judgement call. Reserve the resources for your own use, or make money off of the large number of people harvesting the various resources the planet offers... likely most of which you are not interested in to begin with. Also, if you lose one during time of war it's decision time as to whether you replace it immediately, or take the chance that someone else will take the spot (forcing you to make decisions about war decing the interloper in return). No Concord respawn would be a very good thing.
Switching ownership of a POCO during a time of war would indeed have to be looked into. I could see the process taking a few days perhaps, or simply not be possible after a declaration of war has been proposed. These are options that would have to be looked at.
As to the "For Sale" sign, it was simply to provide incentive. Yes, all you said is true, but putting ads in your corp description is a clumsy mechanic for selling property... and observation is always preferable if possible. But if anchored, operational POCO's became available for sale via contract a lot of people would be interested in not only purchasing them solely to glean taxes but also in building them for the sole purpose of reselling them.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Vihura
Vihura Cor
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 16:06:00 -
[705] - Quote
Sylthi wrote:Vihura wrote: Looks like you have a lot stuff can I have them ?
And you read my threat to quit....... where? exactly? Keep reading things that aren't there. CCP likes players like you, especially when they put out promises about "no plans for gold ammo". What the hell am I doing? Feeding another troll..... ech my elaborate plan to get rich in eve fail... |
|
CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
85
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 16:13:00 -
[706] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:First, thank you for providing some insight into the mechanics and issues involved, including the temporary break down in communications. A few points, I'll keep it as brief as I can (I know, I know, not really my style but I'll try): 1: How often will tax rates be calculated/adjusted? Hopefully frequently, and automatically, based on local market prices over a reasonable period of time. 2: POCO being player owned in High Sec would be excellent, and would be a fine target during war declarations. I know this may be problematic considering fitting into DUST mechanics, but if possible I believe it would be worthwhile. Obviously, some may disagree, feedback would be in order. If they are made available, I think that it would be highly likely that High Sec Empires would limit how low the tax rate could be set. This would prevent the incentive to try your hand at low sec PI from dropping too low. 3: The initial outlay price of POCO's is a minor stumbling block for many solo/small corp PI producers. They want to participate but the initial outlay of ISK combined with the risk of losing it immediately is holding a large number of people back from participating. I realize that the price of POCO's is fairly arbitrary, and I'm sure a great deal of research went into it before hand, but personally I'd rather see POCO's going up and down all the time (and from a large number of PI users both large and small) because the costs are more manageable. They make a great target for smaller scale attackers (roaming gangs) dedicated enough to spend the time to take them out, but the people putting them up to begin with may need the level of financial risk lowered a bit for POCO deployment to be as widespread as we would all like. 4: Perhaps making it possible to place the equivalent of a "For Sale" sign in the POCO screen when you are interested in transferring ownership of an existing structure would facilitated transfers of POCO ownership among the smaller PI industrialists. Or some mechanic to list them on the market or in the contract system. If this were done it would also be nice to see how long the POCO has been in use at that location, to give you a sense of whether that particular one is a relatively "safe" investment.
We can't commit (right here, right now) to a particular update schedule for the tariffs. I can see the value in that and I will talk to the team but Can't promise anything right now.
Highsec will remain the NPC controlled for the time being, but it's a cool idea.
We have to balance the value in defending a POCO versus the barrier of getting involved. We will monitor this balance and make adjustments if it becomes apparent there is a skew.
Cheers Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
|
Thermos Cavy
Hedion University Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 16:14:00 -
[707] - Quote
I ll put it simple.
This change in PI forced me to make some corrections in my gameplan (as Im hisec carebear). My gameplay experience has changed too. Its like "Adaptation quest" for me. If I manage to adapt, I ll be happy. If I dont, I just stop to buy PLEXes, quit EVE and change game to something else (some other MMO). Im not going to cry or scream, and nobody can force me to go into lowsec/nullsec because 'blablabla'. Im not interested in low/null. My PLEXes are "yes" votes.
So, if you dont like changes, stop crying and leave. Its just a game for us and business for CCP. No doubt CCP cares about EVE. Sure they want our best. They need to make profit from it too and its higher priority. They risked some with this expansion. If you continue to buy plexes, they simply wont care. And its a fair deal. I would do the same if I were CCP.
Adapt or die. ;)
Fly safe o7
|
|
CCP Omen
C C P C C P Alliance
85
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 16:17:00 -
[708] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:disasteur wrote:CCP Omen wrote:(The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved. ) so making isk is ok as long as there a lot of pew pew in it? FYI trading is risk free to, only people who dont pay atention to it have a risk to buy the wrong things at the wrong time This. But also: No risk? NO RISK? NO RISK?CCP, what are you smoking? What about the risk associated with the transport of goods to market? Moving high-value goods out of null- and low-sec is filled with risk: Use a hauler or transport ship and get tackled on a gate. Poof, there goes all of your time managing planetary assets and planning. Use a jump freighter and talk about a jump in level of risk. Furthermore, high-sec hauler and freighter ganks happen frequently. No risk, my left nut!
Apologies, Highsec PI was the intended subject of that reply specifically. If you do PI in 0.0 you can probably get a 0% tax POCO which means your reward increased for your risk.
Regards Omen Game Designer Team Pi |
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
431
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 16:34:00 -
[709] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Ranger 1 wrote:First, thank you for providing some insight into the mechanics and issues involved, including the temporary break down in communications. A few points, I'll keep it as brief as I can (I know, I know, not really my style but I'll try): 1: How often will tax rates be calculated/adjusted? Hopefully frequently, and automatically, based on local market prices over a reasonable period of time. 2: POCO being player owned in High Sec would be excellent, and would be a fine target during war declarations. I know this may be problematic considering fitting into DUST mechanics, but if possible I believe it would be worthwhile. Obviously, some may disagree, feedback would be in order. If they are made available, I think that it would be highly likely that High Sec Empires would limit how low the tax rate could be set. This would prevent the incentive to try your hand at low sec PI from dropping too low. 3: The initial outlay price of POCO's is a minor stumbling block for many solo/small corp PI producers. They want to participate but the initial outlay of ISK combined with the risk of losing it immediately is holding a large number of people back from participating. I realize that the price of POCO's is fairly arbitrary, and I'm sure a great deal of research went into it before hand, but personally I'd rather see POCO's going up and down all the time (and from a large number of PI users both large and small) because the costs are more manageable. They make a great target for smaller scale attackers (roaming gangs) dedicated enough to spend the time to take them out, but the people putting them up to begin with may need the level of financial risk lowered a bit for POCO deployment to be as widespread as we would all like. 4: Perhaps making it possible to place the equivalent of a "For Sale" sign in the POCO screen when you are interested in transferring ownership of an existing structure would facilitated transfers of POCO ownership among the smaller PI industrialists. Or some mechanic to list them on the market or in the contract system. If this were done it would also be nice to see how long the POCO has been in use at that location, to give you a sense of whether that particular one is a relatively "safe" investment. We can't commit (right here, right now) to a particular update schedule for the tariffs. I can see the value in that and I will talk to the team but Can't promise anything right now. Highsec will remain the NPC controlled for the time being, but it's a cool idea. We have to balance the value in defending a POCO versus the barrier of getting involved. We will monitor this balance and make adjustments if it becomes apparent there is a skew. Cheers Omen
Fair enough (on all counts), thanks for the reply.
To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
118
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 16:43:00 -
[710] - Quote
Everything T2 is going to go up in price. I saw that T2 drones are already up price in Jita as of last night. The taxes from PI are going to simply get added to the cost of everything. Enjoy! |
|
Crappeshotte
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 16:49:00 -
[711] - Quote
Personally, I don't see the point of import taxes at all. After all, it's not like the commodities can be USED for anything once they're planetside, aside from being processed further and re-exported. So yes, the import tax is a double-dip tax.
I would suggest that the import tax be scrapped altogether. Given that EVERY P4 product requires at least two planets to manufacture it, and many P3 products do as well, scrapping the import tax would make sense, and alleviate some of the double-dip tax burden on the manufacture of high-end commodities.
In Jita, P3 products range in price from 18,900 (Guidance Systems) to 88k (Hazmat Detection Systems). Leaving aside the consideration of sales volumes, the average price of one of each of the P3 products is 62k and this is after the spike that's been happening post-Crucible. So where the quoted average of 70k comes from I struggle to understand. Levying a tax of 7k on Guidance Systems with a unit price of under 19k is eye-watering, and it should be borne in mind that GSs are one of the P3 products which cannot be manufactured on a single planet so this is not the only tax that they incur in their manufacture.
But the fact remains that assessing a wide range of goods, with vastly differing manufacturing costs and uses and demand, is just plain wrong. Some P3 products require two P2 ingredients, and some of them require three. Likewise, some P4 products require two P3 ingredients, and some need three. All P3 products are not the same, and nor are all P4.
Fish and chips are very nice together. But each can be eaten in other ways, combined with other foods, and shops are always going to sell more potatoes than fish. So assessing a fish as having the same monetary value as a potato is nonsensical. It would make far more sense to assess the taxable value of each commodity individually, and to update that value perhaps on a quarterly basis to reflect the previous three months' selling prices. In a game which seems to positively delight in number-crunching, this should be quite achievable - after all, moving averages are already kept on every tradeable item in the game. Such a mechanism would serve to keep the taxes relevant, and any changes in them predictable and gradual. As opposed to the cliff we've just run into face-first.
My 1.8 pennyworth... It would have been two pennyworth, but there's a tax doncha know... |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 16:55:00 -
[712] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
With things as they are, however, I would not alter the mechanics for High Sec POCO's at all. Excluding others would be a judgement call. Reserve the resources for your own use, or make money off of the large number of people harvesting the various resources the planet offers... likely most of which you are not interested in to begin with. Also, if you lose one during time of war it's decision time as to whether you replace it immediately, or take the chance that someone else will take the spot (forcing you to make decisions about war decing the interloper in return). No Concord respawn would be a very good thing.
I think they would need to operate a little differntly.
I can recall years ago the headaches caused by people who would buy up all of the newbie skillbooks around the training stations and relisted them at much higher prices. Seems fair in a cutthroat way, but really caused problems for the new player experience.
It would not be difficult for a corp or two to lock down all the POCOs within a few jumps of the starter stations, locking new players out of PI (since newbies are not going to take down a POCO, crow they would not even be able to afford the wardec or know what a corp was), so there would have to be some mechanism in place to stop such situations. Perhaps tax caps in 1.0-0.8 space or something. |
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 17:01:00 -
[713] - Quote
CCP Omen,
POCOs* withstanding, the other PI changes have gutted my playstyle. I will not be moving my operations to non-empire space. I know, I know, you and nullsec alliances really want me to, but no.
Assuming the following... Moving to non-empire space is not an option Racial industrial to V Standard Core certificates Trade to IV, Contracting to III, Retail to III
What career would you suggest now that high sec PI is not viable and I have less than 30 days left until my sub runs out?
*: Nothing wrong with POCOs. I see them as a completely valid and useful addition to Eve. Good work. |
tengen san
Triton-TC
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 17:04:00 -
[714] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:tengen san wrote: Selecting the month Nov 2011 to adjust the taxable value must be considered as fly by from the point of evaluation as PI prices in Nov 2011 were heavily inflated as reasoned correctly by Jack Dante.
Any correct taxation adjustment should reflect the 12 months market value average. This would reflect a more correct/realistic and sensible adjustment. Ideally including a 12 months average in the single Tier Colum P0 GÇô P4 as well. ItGÇÖs would create a reliable and accepted cornerstone as used in economic evelaution.
Spell my name right, damnit! But an alternative way to do it, would be to take the average P4 market value for the last 3-6 months, then break it down into it's components. Scrapyard Bob has a few analysis of that in his posts. If the average P4 price is 900k, you set the tax value of P3 to 50k, P2 to 10k, P1 to 312 isk and P0 to 2 isk (doesn't have to take P4 as a reference, probably best to take the one with the highest market volume in isk and adjust up and down). Then you could apply some scaling in either direction to account for double taxation if you feel that's important.
Jack Dent it is, sorry on that mate, I mistaked the later part of you name with the more common know author of theGÇPdivine comedy", happens when you leave your glasses somewhere out of the room.
I was outlining the scheme for evaluation of the taxable base market value! How the scheme for the tax itself is constructed..., Scrapyard Bob's proposed brake down might just work fine with it.
Taking a 12 month market value average also would support the dynamic taxation adjustments to come. A yearly adjustment based on a 12 month average market value, NET value of course. Otherwise, in two there years the same problem is at the doorsteps again. The point is transparency, so the one who keeps his excel sheet up, can pre evaluate the coming adjustment by the end of the year. In addition, a fixed date (winter expansion) also supports the planning schedule of the DevGÇÖs.
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
19
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 18:05:00 -
[715] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:
But first you would need to fix all the current wardec non-exploits, and then some new ones. It would be too easy to transfer the POCO to an alt corp as soon as the wardec notification arrived. Or after it's reinforced. Or while it's being shot, and maybe get people concorded.
Ohh, put some "concord" risk into the game for big PvP corps wardecing small-but-rich mining corps? I like it! :)
No, seriously that would be wrong. But the whole wardec thing is broken so many ways, I think we'd hardly notice a few more, except risk of getting your entire fleet CONCORDed in the middle of an attack WOULD stand out...
It'd be pretty funny to do that with a griefer wardec and collect some griefer tears for a change, or at least rag on them on the forums when they whine. :)
But aside from that little nyah-nhay image in the back of my mind, I agree. Hisec POCOs have some potential, but it's going to take some careful tuning. That hasn't exactly been CCP's approach to this so far.
[Edit: I shouldn't have mixed two cases in my jest. PvP attacking small-but-rich != griefer. I have no patience for griefers, but PvP corps are just part of the game.] |
Zedia Zhane
The Lagrangian Mechanics Intrepid Crossing
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 18:12:00 -
[716] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Both of these changes were made after the second dev blog. The exact anchoring restrictions are on the wiki page and I highly recommend players who are setting up their own customs office have a read through the information there. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOfficeAlso the construction at Amarr outposts bug has been fixed internally and will be deployed to TQ early next week.
I think that, at this point, everyone can agree that a third Dev Blog announcing the major changes to the taxation price index (and minor one to anchoring location) would have been a good idea.
One of my big concerns is this: The new taxation price index (for lack of a better term) is causing the cost of PI to shoot up astronomically. That means that, in turn, the price of PI produced goods is going to shoot up as well. Particularly for things like, say Broadcast Node, where all the pieces run through 3 different colonies before final assembly. Then, at some point, CCP will re-index the prices again, based on the prices that have been drastically increased by the change we are going through now. Which will mean another enormous hike in PI expense, and another corresponding increase in end prices, and so on. And let's not forget the massive increase in demand for PI materials that is happening because of people building POCO's like crazy.
Eventually, things will balance out. Price index hikes will get smaller each time around, and the current blitz on POCO construction won't last forever. But the way things are set up now, expect a massive increase in PI goods costs (although I'm already seeing 30 to 40% increases in POCO components) and a correspondingly massive jump in tariff costs the next time prices are re-indexed.
I think it's pretty obvious that highsec Incursions turned into a ISK fountain of such huge size that it unbalanced the economy. So at this point ISK fountain reduction and ISK sink increases are needed to restore stability. I had hoped that the problem would be addressed at the source - HS Incursion bounties. But, failing that, I will accept other adjustments, such as removing insurance payments for Concord'ed ships. And I will grudgingly accept the massive ISK sink of NPC CO tariffs. It's just a crying shame that CCP completely failed to communicate this to the player base in any meaningful way - or solicit feedback on the eventual implementation - before the change went live. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
19
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 18:19:00 -
[717] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:Hey guys.
Some of you have rightly pointed out that this last tax rate change should have been better communicated and I just want to clear that part up. We did have a plan to communicate it properly and the Game Designers had the text ready, but then the ball got dropped between us in the middle of the messaging storm prior to launch. I guess that one's on me.
I know that "I was totally gonna" doesn't make up for not doing something, but I want to extend my apologies for any inconvenience and confusion this caused.
The designers will probably jump in and take some questions on the mechanics.
OK, you made a mistake. I'm not going to rag on you; I made one once myself.
And apology accepted.
But I hope you noticed the other mistake -- that it took this long too detect, correct, and respond.
This should have been flagged as a hot-button feature, and player feedback monitored closely. Responding much sooner would have made a huge difference. Especially with updating the "documentation" -- the wiki and dev blogs.
I'm guessing you had a lot of things going on after release -- or maybe a well-earned vacation. You probably have to plan ahead to be able to respond, and consider it part of your release plan.
Because somebody will probably screw up again. |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 18:22:00 -
[718] - Quote
Jim Hooknose wrote:CCP Omen,
POCOs* withstanding, the other PI changes have gutted my playstyle. I will not be moving my operations to non-empire space. I know, I know, you and nullsec alliances really want me to, but no.
Assuming the following... Moving to non-empire space is not an option Racial industrial to V Standard Core certificates Trade to IV, Contracting to III, Retail to III
What career would you suggest now that high sec PI is not viable and I have less than 30 days left until my sub runs out?
*: Nothing wrong with POCOs. I see them as a completely valid and useful addition to Eve. Good work.
I would suggest that you keep your harvesters running and watch Jita markets. The PI product prices are currently skyrocketing and you may kick yourself for folding too early once they stabilize.
Those who speculate the market fully expect all PI stuff to go up at least 20% in price, possibly more. You may want to check again if what you are doing is "not viable".
|
Raleit
Cobalt Brigade Cobal Tide Coalition
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 18:29:00 -
[719] - Quote
there will be winner's and losers on the tax so line up on one side or another |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
19
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 18:58:00 -
[720] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market) P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market) P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market) P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market) P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market) The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like GÇ£no taxGÇ¥ - > GÇ£taxGÇ¥. It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid. One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog here. The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved. I will continue to answer your questions in this thread. Regards CCP Omen
I'm generally in favor of what you were trying to do here. As I pointed out before release, the big problem is you rushed it; you just didn't give yourself enough time, to handle all the "non-technical" details. I don't point that out to say "I told you so", but rather to say that the core idea was good, but now we (CCP and the players) are in clean-up-the-mess mode, so let's get busy.
Those Robotics numbers are WAY out of line. What you have here is positive feedback, and that's a really bad thing in any system, including an economy. You want negative feedback, overall. I don't think you can fix the mistake now -- FIX FIX FIX isn't a good mode to get into. I think your way forward here is to just use a 6-month or 12-month average of some type. Arithmetic mean over a sliding window may be good enough, but there are many other options.
You want enough stablity that people can actually make plans and attempt to execute them. That includes both price stability, and product direction stability. You managed to destabilize both at once...
I must also point out that you really are trying to hard to tell people how you want them to play.
I think you need to draw the line at pulling the rug out from under people's play style. Give people options and incentives, yes. Rebalance, yes.
But the player who sits in station and trades and hasn't flown a ship in years is not a problem to be solved. He's a customer. Who knows why he plays that way? The challenges involved must work for him somehow. Don't view him as fresh meat that somehow must be delivered to the Goonswarm to be slaughtered, because he must risk his life. Let him risk his ISK instead.
Your first PI changes were a royal pain for me, because I had to spend hours redoing my planets. Despite the improvements in UI, that really wasn't fun.
Massive disruption of existing activities is something you should be minimizing. It basically takes all the work players have done, and suddenly discards it. Basically, YOU become a bigger risk than other players -- less predictable. And in turn, you are TAKING a huge risk .
That doesn't mean you don't make changes; it just means you need to value and respect the players own investments into the game. Having to go through a massive cleanup phase after every expansions really isn't much fun. A little more sensitivity in how things are introduced could avoid this "do all this work before you can have fun again" syndrome.
But the other problem I have with this change is the strong bias against small players. I don't mean "players who aren't in a player corp". I mean both "individuals doing things" and "small corps of a group of people who like to do things together".
I don't want to leave my corp -- people I enjoy and want to stay with -- to do POCO stuff. I'd seriously consider tackling that challenge, but you have designed it in a way I cannot, for purely mechanical reasons.
Likewise, my big concern about losec is that you've designed it in a way that may potentially be used to obtain stable control of large areas by large groups, while discouraging small investment. That's entirely fixable. Just remove the ability to restrict access -- or even remove the ability to vary the rates. That makes it a lot more competitive, and leads to more of the type of interactions you are seeking.
Finally, drop the investment cost of POCOs substantially. I think it likely you'd want to also make both Interbus and player POCOs a bit easier to attack, as well, although I hesitate to extrapolate too much from my experience doing it solo.
My biggest criticism of the game is that it is presently too much about huge blobs rather than direct interaction of individuals and small groups. Kind of like RL, if you think about it. You need to ensure that the individual player has fun, is involved and invested in the game. I understand that for technical reasons, those big groups take a lot of time and attention.
A lot of us simply cannot participate in as many group activities as we would like, because our schedules and real-life commitments are inflexible masters. Instead of trying to force us into "more interaction", you might try designing activities that we can do where the interaction is not tied to schedule. PI/POCO has that potential, if you don't force it into a corporations-only mode. |
|
Severian Carnifex
80
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 19:11:00 -
[721] - Quote
I have one question for CCP, please consider it. -> Can you decrease a little tax for launching rocket-can (export by launch) in space and it that way give us oportunity to earn a little more for more work that we have to do?
And few more questions: 1.) Money from launching rocket-can export is going to who? POCO owner or tax like before? I don't see logic that that ISK goes to POCO owner because you launch from your facility and do not use POCO at all. And it would be better that that tax is like before, because it would be ISK sink.
2.) If POCO owner says that you cant use their POCO, can you use launching rocket-can export? It would be logic that you can, because you launch from your facility and do not use POCO at all and it would open ninja PI oportunity in low/0.0 sec. |
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
25
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 19:23:00 -
[722] - Quote
@ Omen
Started reading your replys to questions, you smug git, we are not interested if YOU like the damn changes!
You are supposed to add content that WE like dumbass |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 19:26:00 -
[723] - Quote
The more I think about it, the more I think the current tax rates are appropriate (despite any speculation price built into the reference values). If anything, they may need to be raised in the future. Let's walk through an example:
Say a p2's equilibrium value is such that with 0% tax rates across the board, an extraction->p2 producer would be willing to sell p2's for 8,000 isk/unit. That's a slightly fictional example -- 8,000 is an arbitrary but realistic number, and 0% is not quite correct but close enough for this example. Then a change is announced (all non-highsec COs being removed, POCOs going in, taxes unchanged). Speculation occurs and the price goes up to 9,000 isk/u. Then another change is announced -- Interbus COs will be put in. This lowers the demand for POCOs, so the price should go down a bit, but the PI market can take many days or sometimes weeks to float down to an equilibrium value after someone has been manipulating upwards and setting a floor. Besides, who's to say the speculators aren't correct, and that the increased usage of the p2 from POCOs and perhaps new T2 items or POS fuel (depending on the p2) wouldn't mean that the 9,000 isk/u would be the new true value?
Then the reference tax value is changed, based on the 9,000 isk/u. If the speculators were wrong, and the true value was still 8,000 isk/u, then the new true value *after the tax change* would be 8,900 isk/u (based on a 10% tax rate), since producers require 8,000 isk/u profit to produce this good. The tax would be 900 isk/u on an item selling around 8,900 isk/u -- just about correct! And if the speculators were RIGHT, then the new true value would be 9,000 isk/u (speculator price) + 900 isk/u (tax) = 9,900 isk/u, which means that the 900 isk/u tax is actually too low, and would not correspond to 10% market value!
You can do examples for p3s, or including the taxes for lower tiers of PI goods, or including POCO tax rate estimates... but you get the idea. The taxes probably should not be lowered at all. A rebalance in 2012 based on market values at that time may end up raising the reference tax values. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 19:38:00 -
[724] - Quote
Severian Carnifex wrote: And few more questions: 1.) Money from launching rocket-can export is going to who? POCO owner or tax like before? I don't see logic that that ISK goes to POCO owner because you launch from your facility and do not use POCO at all. And it would be better that that tax is like before, because it would be ISK sink.
2.) If POCO owner says that you cant use their POCO, can you use launching rocket-can export? It would be logic that you can, because you launch from your facility and do not use POCO at all and it would open ninja PI oportunity in low/0.0 sec.
Interesting points. Hrm.. I could see adding BPOs for drop shoots and rockets so that people can bypass the custom's office with things they build themselves.
Though with the PI changes, I just got this chilling image of CCP finally noticing that manufacturing costs in high sec are also trivial and adding a similar 'market cost' to them too. That they have ONLY done this to PI seems a bit strange. Think about it.. manufacturing and research are also 'completely safe' right now.... |
Severian Carnifex
82
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 19:58:00 -
[725] - Quote
Nekopyat wrote:Severian Carnifex wrote: And few more questions: 1.) Money from launching rocket-can export is going to who? POCO owner or tax like before? I don't see logic that that ISK goes to POCO owner because you launch from your facility and do not use POCO at all. And it would be better that that tax is like before, because it would be ISK sink.
2.) If POCO owner says that you cant use their POCO, can you use launching rocket-can export? It would be logic that you can, because you launch from your facility and do not use POCO at all and it would open ninja PI oportunity in low/0.0 sec.
Interesting points. Hrm.. I could see adding BPOs for drop shoots and rockets so that people can bypass the custom's office with things they build themselves. Though with the PI changes, I just got this chilling image of CCP finally noticing that manufacturing costs in high sec are also trivial and adding a similar 'market cost' to them too. That they have ONLY done this to PI seems a bit strange. Think about it.. manufacturing and research are also 'completely safe' right now....
Glad you like it. And i thought... when we have that way of exporting things in game, why the hell not to use it for new mechanic (ninja PI in "hostile" orbits) and ISK sink and maybe some more isk earning oportunity. All in one. And very little dev time to make it happen.
So please CCP, can we get response here??? |
Jim Hooknose
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
18
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 20:06:00 -
[726] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:I think you need to draw the line at pulling the rug out from under people's play style. Give people options and incentives, yes. Rebalance, yes.
But the player who sits in station and trades and hasn't flown a ship in years is not a problem to be solved. He's a customer. Who knows why he plays that way? The challenges involved must work for him somehow. Don't view him as fresh meat that somehow must be delivered to the Goonswarm to be slaughtered
Please see the above for a concise and well written view of the changes made to PI. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
20
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 20:34:00 -
[727] - Quote
pmchem wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think the current tax rates are appropriate (despite any speculation price built into the reference values). If anything, they may need to be raised in the future. Let's walk through an example:
Say a p2's equilibrium value is such that with 0% tax rates across the board, an extraction->p2 producer would be willing to sell p2's for 8,000 isk/unit. That's a slightly fictional example -- 8,000 is an arbitrary but realistic number, and 0% is not quite correct but close enough for this example. Then a change is announced (all non-highsec COs being removed, POCOs going in, taxes unchanged). Speculation occurs and the price goes up to 9,000 isk/u. Then another change is announced -- Interbus COs will be put in. This lowers the demand for POCOs, so the price should go down a bit, but the PI market can take many days or sometimes weeks to float down to an equilibrium value after someone has been manipulating upwards and setting a floor. Besides, who's to say the speculators aren't correct, and that the increased usage of the p2 from POCOs and perhaps new T2 items or POS fuel (depending on the p2) wouldn't mean that the 9,000 isk/u would be the new true value?
Then the reference tax value is changed, based on the 9,000 isk/u. If the speculators were wrong, and the true value was still 8,000 isk/u, then the new true value *after the tax change* would be 8,900 isk/u (based on a 10% tax rate), since producers require 8,000 isk/u profit to produce this good. The tax would be 900 isk/u on an item selling around 8,900 isk/u -- just about correct! And if the speculators were RIGHT, then the new true value would be 9,000 isk/u (speculator price) + 900 isk/u (tax) = 9,900 isk/u, which means that the 900 isk/u tax is actually too low, and would not correspond to 10% market value!
You can do examples for p3s, or including the taxes for lower tiers of PI goods, or including POCO tax rate estimates... but you get the idea. The taxes probably should not be lowered at all. A rebalance in 2012 based on market values at that time may end up raising the reference tax values.
To at least partially agree -- I don't really care what the actual tax rates are, so long as I make a reasonable ISK/hr, both for elapsed time and actual time spent doing the work, including hauling and planning.
My concern is with the overall structure, and with the transition.
Doing it this way, based on the most recent speculation on a historical high, is operating completely blind and causes a lot of unnecessary disruption.
There are several structural issues here; I'll just list a few.
- Repeated taxation at each step in the production chain.
- Why is PI taxed and not other extraction or production? I'm not saying it shouldn't be taxed. But if you don't have a very good answer to this, you can't do a very good job of designing and managing it. The best I can offer here for justification is to balance ISK/hr compared to these other activities.
- The relative pricing of the tiers was rather distorted at the particular snapshot in time.
- It's important to establish just how these will be calculated in the future. Markets don't do well when the rules are unknown, or subject to capricious change.
|
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 20:34:00 -
[728] - Quote
Amy Elteam wrote:All you people getting mad at CCP are disrespecting the larger number of players who spent a great deal of time analyzing the economics of the pi markets and pushed hard to get the taxation levels to match market values. It was a pleasant surprise to armchair economists like myself when ccp did exactly what we had been suggesting.
This does nothing to destroy pi as a viable way to make isk, all it does is annoy people who don't understand economics.
Welcome to your first forum post Amy. Since it is, I must ask how did you make your suggestions to CCP - batphone? |
Helena Russell Makanen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 20:49:00 -
[729] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:Hey guys.
Some of you have rightly pointed out that this last tax rate change should have been better communicated and I just want to clear that part up. We did have a plan to communicate it properly and the Game Designers had the text ready, but then the ball got dropped between us in the middle of the messaging storm prior to launch. I guess that one's on me.
I know that "I was totally gonna" doesn't make up for not doing something, but I want to extend my apologies for any inconvenience and confusion this caused.
The designers will probably jump in and take some questions on the mechanics.
BULL.
Sorry, I don't think this "oops Mister nice-guy here, omg I dropped the ball - my bad!!!' is going to work this time.
So a little 'oopsie' happened and the most vital and controversial piece, of the only already unpopular expansion item, is the one missed. Uh hunh....
Not suspicious AT ALL |
Scarlett Ninja
Section 5
26
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 20:59:00 -
[730] - Quote
All you people moaning about the interbus tax rates are missing the point i think.
If you are a large corp/alliance living in 0.0 or low sec and your members do PI you will soon get sick of the tax rates and put up POCO's, as i presume CCP intends.
Now you come to setting tax rates, you charge your own members nothing obviously and charge everyone else same as Interbus. ( why set it lower than Interbus and any higher might make ppl think about blowing it up)
So we are in a situation where people who are in a big enough corp/alliance to defend POCO's do PI for less than before ( any decent corp will pay for these, not ask members for the isk) and everyone else gets charged a fortune.
So we now have a 2 tier system where one player does it for free and another pays a fortune, this cannot be fair.
Are you saying that all small corps should disband and join one of the big power blocks, or just telling us that your not interested in us?
The issue is not "how are we gonna make a big profit now!" but "how are we gonna compete with the people getting charged no tax" |
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 21:15:00 -
[731] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:There are several structural issues here; I'll just list a few.
- Repeated taxation at each step in the production chain.
- It's important to establish just how these will be calculated in the future. Markets don't do well when the rules are unknown, or subject to capricious change.
I was interrupted and failed to make my biggest structural point -- that of feedback built into the system.
Positive feedback makes for instability. It's especially serious when it is coupled with delay; that is how you get wild oscillations.
The solution is to introduce damping and smoothing (low-pass filtering) into the system.
If you average over a long period, and penalize rapid swings and oscillations in your averaging process, you can get a system behavior that isn't subject to wild behaviors.
The higher the tax rate, the bigger this issue is. This is complicated by the fact we simply do not know what the average tax rate will be. Most of that is now in player hands - and eventually, perhaps their wallets.
But it's not that hard to handle. Just average the price in a way that taxation doesn't amplify the price instability. Any move in the direction 0-tax POCOs will just add additional stability to the system.
Please note that when I say "stable", I don't mean static. The oscillations I'm talking about are an artifact of the system design itself, not player behavior. An unstable system would always result in wild chaotic oscillations. You want instead a market that responds to changing supply and demand and speculation. A market that behaves somewhat rationally.
What we have here is a tax rate that has been driven by a price increase that was driven by speculation on the tax rate. That process shouldn't be allowed to continue unchecked. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
433
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 21:22:00 -
[732] - Quote
Helena Russell Makanen wrote:CCP Guard wrote:Hey guys.
Some of you have rightly pointed out that this last tax rate change should have been better communicated and I just want to clear that part up. We did have a plan to communicate it properly and the Game Designers had the text ready, but then the ball got dropped between us in the middle of the messaging storm prior to launch. I guess that one's on me.
I know that "I was totally gonna" doesn't make up for not doing something, but I want to extend my apologies for any inconvenience and confusion this caused.
The designers will probably jump in and take some questions on the mechanics. BULL. Sorry, I don't think this "oops Mister nice-guy here, omg I dropped the ball - my bad!!!' is going to work this time. So a little 'oopsie' happened and the most vital and controversial piece, of the only already unpopular expansion item, is the one missed. Uh hunh.... Not suspicious AT ALL
Actually, I rather think it will work this time.
Frankly the more people understand about why and how these adjustments were made (and notice that they are pulling in just as much profit as they were previously before even thinking about their own POCO's) the less unpopular the decision is becoming.
I just sold a small load of PI goods about an hour ago. Profits are up noticably. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
321
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 21:29:00 -
[733] - Quote
i like the changes as a whole and agree that they where needed. However having high taxes basically kills a popular PI setup.
some setups moved resources to the orbit and imported them back to a different place on the planet. This is no longer cost effective and expedited transports work only if there is a link between buildings (AFAIK). So it would be cool if expedited transports could be revisited so we can move stuff on the planet with less costs than import/export. (e.g drop the link restriction) a new bounty system for eve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=359105 You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 21:31:00 -
[734] - Quote
I didn't like your angry and insulting reply to CCP Omen, but I do like this one.
Scarlett Ninja wrote:All you people moaning about the interbus tax rates are missing the point i think.
If you are a large corp/alliance living in 0.0 or low sec and your members do PI you will soon get sick of the tax rates and put up POCO's, as i presume CCP intends.
Now you come to setting tax rates, you charge your own members nothing obviously and charge everyone else same as Interbus. ( why set it lower than Interbus and any higher might make ppl think about blowing it up)
You might set it at lower than Interbus to attract customers to your planet, in competition with others.
Two problems with this, though:
- The entire game is short on marketing communication. Spam cans are NOT the answer.
- The rate of resource depletion seriously works against this. You'd have to make more in taxes than you would lose on depletion. And by investing in a POCO, you are locking yourself into a specific planet. (Although setup time already does this to a great degree).
It might help to be able to set different rates for different commodities! So if I'm extracting Heavy Metals, I set a higher rate for those, and a lower rate to attract customers to extract others. Of course, as it is set up around corps, a better strategy might be to just be sure you have a corp member extracting everything the planet offers reasonable quantities of. But if that is all well-balanced, encouraging customers and putting up more POCOs to set your production focus based on what you want to make and sell, rather than warping your production, would be welcome. AND be more player interaction.
A refinement could be to allow transfer between players in a CO via contract. Thus, if I'm making Enriched Uranium, I can extract the Heavy Metals and offer a low tax rate on Nobel Metals, and an immediate haulage-free market for Precious Metals.
I don't think CCP quite gets that this is not just a game of people shooting at each other. Economics is a MAJOR part of this game, and making that richer makes it richer for everyone. Economics drives a lot of the pewpew, and itself is a rich form of player interaction.
In fact, that's the part I like best about this whole idea, but you have to make it work.
Scarlett Ninja wrote:
The issue is not "how are we gonna make a big profit now!" but "how are we gonna compete with the people getting charged no tax"
Right. I think I end up on the "big profit now" side of this, but in the past, I'd have been in your position. |
Witchking Angmar
Perkele.
5
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 21:34:00 -
[735] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:You may accuse us of many things, but not for not caring for EVE. She means everything to us and doing open heart surgery on her freaks us out! But we feel she won't survive without occasional course correction.
Huh.. And why are you demolishing the economy with hisec incursions again? |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 21:35:00 -
[736] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:i like the changes as a whole and agree that they where needed. However having high taxes basically kills a popular PI setup.
some setups moved resources to the orbit and imported them back to a different place on the planet. This is no longer cost effective and expedited transports work only if there is a link between buildings (AFAIK). So it would be cool if expedited transports could be revisited so we can move stuff on the planet with less costs than import/export. (e.g drop the link restriction)
You can create temporary links. If you have extractors, you can drop some extractor heads temporarily, establish the link, and do the transfer, then delete the link, and reestablish the extractor heads.
It's somewhat of a pain, but very handy when you're not in-system with this sort of a setup.
However, on high production planets, the delay between transfers can't keep up. So in those cases, you end up needing to do the transfer-via-CO thing anyway. And pre-tax increase, I used to prefer it, despite the added cost, just to save time. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
21
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 21:38:00 -
[737] - Quote
Witchking Angmar wrote:CCP Omen wrote:You may accuse us of many things, but not for not caring for EVE. She means everything to us and doing open heart surgery on her freaks us out! But we feel she won't survive without occasional course correction. Huh.. And why are you demolishing the economy with hisec incursions again?
And doing surgery with a meat axe? |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
22
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 22:12:00 -
[738] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:pmchem wrote: Then the reference tax value is changed, based on the 9,000 isk/u. If the speculators were wrong, and the true value was still 8,000 isk/u, then the new true value *after the tax change* would be 8,900 isk/u (based on a 10% tax rate), since producers require 8,000 isk/u profit to produce this good. The tax would be 900 isk/u on an item selling around 8,900 isk/u -- just about correct! And if the speculators were RIGHT, then the new true value would be 9,000 isk/u (speculator price) + 900 isk/u (tax) = 9,900 isk/u, which means that the 900 isk/u tax is actually too low, and would not correspond to 10% market value!
You can do examples for p3s, or including the taxes for lower tiers of PI goods, or including POCO tax rate estimates... but you get the idea. The taxes probably should not be lowered at all. A rebalance in 2012 based on market values at that time may end up raising the reference tax values.
To at least partially agree -- I don't really care what the actual tax rates are, so long as I make a reasonable ISK/hr, both for elapsed time and actual time spent doing the work, including hauling and planning.
But I just spotted a weakness in your argument, pmchem: it's basically circular.
What you're saying is, the tax rate is correct, because it's based on the speculated price. Built into that is the assumption that the speculated price is close to accurate. Even if you believe in efficient markets and that they apply to EVE, there was a lack of accurate and timely information leading up to this.
So my counter-argument is that there is really no information to be gleaned from these prices and taxes as to what the final appropriate level would prove to be.
There's also no clear definition of what "appropriate" would mean, as I mentioned in another post. We don't have taxes on ANY other extraction or production activity; in fact, we have bounties on ratting and missioning. We actually pay people to extract resources via looting and salvage.
So let's not discuss this as if "appropriate" is what gives you and me an economic advantage over those not in a position to replace their COs. "Appropriate" is relative to some goal. I would choose health of the game. CCP Omen should take a larger view, health of CCP, of which health of EVE Online is a critical but not sole factor.
I don't think you or I have much idea as to what is needed to make this DUST thing work out right with the EVE economy. I strongly suspect that CCP Omen is still struggling with that very question, and best of luck to him in sorting it out.
One thing that puzzles me a bit is why price, not profitability, was the target. Driving up the price has a bigger impact on the rest of the EVE economy than it does on PI, actually. It does make nullsec PI more profitable, and maybe hisec, and losec if it doesn't destroy it.
The net effect of this will be to funnel more ISK into our hands -- so long as there's a source for that ISK on the other side. Who are the consumers who will be paying these inflated prices, and do they have the ISK to spare, and will they stay in the game? And what will happen to us if they don't? Who will be driven out of business? What ships will no longer fly in PvP combat?
Our wallets are not the only consideration here. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
432
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 22:12:00 -
[739] - Quote
Crappeshotte wrote: In Jita, P3 products currently range in price from 18,900 (Guidance Systems) to 88k (Hazmat Detection Systems). Leaving aside the consideration of sales volumes, the average price of one of each of the P3 products is 62k and this is after the spike that's been happening post-Crucible. So where the quoted average of 70k comes from I struggle to understand. Levying a tax of 7k on Guidance Systems with a unit price of under 19k is eye-watering, and it should be borne in mind that GSs are one of the P3 products which cannot be manufactured on a single planet so this is not the only tax that they incur in their manufacture. And yes, I realise that prices are dynamic and will adjust to accommodate the new taxes, but that cannot be used as an justification for, or an explanation of, the taxing system itself.
Guidance systems sell for *far* below what they cost to make from the underlying P2s or P1s. That's because they were originally an NPC-sold good and people built up huge stockpiles of them. So the 19k price is more a reflection of all of those old GS that were bought from NPCs.
To make GS, under today's P1 prices, in an efficient manner (making the P3 from the P1 to avoid the P2 import/export tariff), you would need to spend about 61k to make them.
((P1a + P1b + P1c + P1d) + (4 * import tariff)) * 80 = input cost (P3 market value - export tariff) * 3 = output value
Water, Reactive Metals, Chiral, Plasmoids - are the 4 P1s
((382+417+708+541))+(4*25) * 80 = 171840 ISK (25227 - 7000) * 3 = 54681 ISK margin = -68%
So Guidance Systems (and other items where large NPC-sold stockpiles still exist from Summer 2010) are bad examples. |
|
CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
270
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 22:40:00 -
[740] - Quote
I can see a ton of good feedback in this thread, thank you so much!
Please keep the good feedback up, but also be aware that the devs are not inhuman machines, working 24 hours around the clock. To process your feedback and to generate some meaningful answers might take a bit. Don"t be discourage by that to post in a constructive way. CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
|
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Crucis Cassiopeiae
EvE-COM
745
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 22:59:00 -
[741] - Quote
Severian Carnifex wrote:@ CCP
I have one question for CCP, please consider it. (and 2 more) -> Can you decrease a little tax for launching rocket-can (export by launch) in space and it that way give us oportunity to earn a little more for more work that we have to do?
And few more questions: 1.) Money from launching rocket-can export is going to who? POCO owner or tax like before? I don't see logic that that ISK goes to POCO owner because you launch from your facility and do not use POCO at all. And it would be better that that tax is like before, because it would be ISK sink.
2.) If POCO owner says that you cant use their POCO, can you use launching rocket-can export? It would be logic that you can, because you launch from your facility and do not use POCO at all and it would open ninja PI oportunity in low/0.0 sec.
I thought something just like that. And i would like to hear CCP-s opinion on this. |
Captain Evenwel
StoneCutterz Shotgun Weddings
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 23:02:00 -
[742] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:I can see a ton of good feedback in this thread, thank you so much!
Please keep the good feedback up, but also be aware that the devs are not inhuman machines, working 24 hours around the clock. To process your feedback and to generate some meaningful answers might take a bit. Don"t be discourage by that to post in a constructive way.
Personally I'm amazed you do what you do. |
pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 23:31:00 -
[743] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:What ships will no longer fly in PvP combat?
Our wallets are not the only consideration here.
I'm just gonna quote the end of your post because it was representative of the uselessness of the rest of your post. No evidence-based arguments, just some FUD. Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. A scaremonger tactic when you don't have any arguments or evidence to support your wishes. There's a lot of FUD posting going on.
When discussing taxes I consistently provide numbers and a discussion of economic impacts. This part of Eve is spreadsheets online, after all. There was nothing 'circular' in my reasoning, just a discussion of competing effects and before/after examples. |
Akane Mishima
United Abominations Mercenary Management
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 23:38:00 -
[744] - Quote
Alright so lets start this off politely.
CCP you raise interbus taxes, alright im okay with this. This just means that Im paying 900isk per unit on something that currently sells for 15k or more/isk per unit. So im still making a profit.
However, if im going to be paying for this service why must I still go through all these tedious routines? Like having to be within the same system to launch materials from a launchpad to the customs office.
Why are storage units still utterly useless, it would be nice to be able to save up the mats in storage then launch them all into space and pick them up myself so I wouldnt have to pay the ridiculous tax. After all EVE is about taking risks and doing what I want. I'd gladly take that risk to avoid taxes. (Buff storage units, their capacity sucks for the CPU and PG they require.)
Why did you ruin PI so I can only make 1 p1 resource on each planet? It was better off when you could do multiple PI processes on a single planet. It doesnt make sense to FORCE me to export everytime I go to the next level of PI. If I can fit it on the planet with my command center I should be able to do that.
Now some suggestions to PI itself....
Ok so now that PI has gotten a bit more expensive... and your basically "investing" into a single planet why cant I upgrade that POCOS or planet so it has a competitive edge against other POCOS in other systems. Like for example maybe build a resource satellite that shoots down some catalysts that speed up the regeneration of white spots on my planet for all resources. Enticing people to come to my planet instead of someone elses. It would make sense even if command centers could build these as well. So if people want to save me some cash and they build these regenerating structures on my planet for me I'd give them a cut off their taxes.
Also could you come up with a system to make facilities inactive? So basically you could power down a certain planet and thus gain the ability to have another active facility on a different planet. So if the taxes got too crazy in one spot I could power everything down (maybe even contract it out for other players to buy) and move on to another system instead of blowing everything up.
Now to my point here with all this rambling... Why did you churn out this tax system NOW when PI is still incomplete. IMO I think you did it to make PI harder to do and thus with less people doing PI, PI mats themselves become more expensive. Also for the future of Dust you need people on both sides. I think you are trying to eliminate solo PI because of this so its always an alliance versus another alliance that way theres always a fight for Dust players. Which is kinda ridiciulous because I for some reason recall this being "A low skill investment for old and new players alike for opportunities to make tons of ISK" it was also something that in my belief was intended and greatly compensated solo pi players who knew what they were doing. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
432
|
Posted - 2011.12.02 23:40:00 -
[745] - Quote
I think my major objections are still:
- The CC size and the size of the planetary launches should be increased so that you get 2500 m3 capacity at level V of the Command Center Upgrades skill. Even at the 15% export tariff if you go with CC launches, it would then provide an "out" for those who get locked in on a planet with an over-greedy landlord. The larger CC launches would be a way, while still a PITA, to get your product off-planet rather then pay a 30-100% tariff rate at the POCO. It would also ensure that you could continue to operate at a reduced capacity even if you get denied access to the POCO.
- Material requirements on the POCOs are still too high and I would have liked to see multiple sizes so you could trade-off on cost vs HP (or some other trade-off like only a 10k m3 capacity on the cheap version or a 50k m3 capacity on a more expensive model). Without the ability to anchor defenses around them, they need to have material requirements more like POS modules like labs / arrays, not like a medium/large control tower.
- Storage facilities need to be reduced in CPU/PG needs (300 CPU 300 PG) and their capacity needs to be boosted by about 5x to 10x (25k to 50k m3 of storage). This would then provide another "out" for those who are dealing with a destroyed POCO or a POCO where they've been locked out temporarily.
- The amount of PG/CPU available via the Command Center could stand to be boosted more. Especially for the higher level CC's which take longer to train for. The level 4 CC (at CCU4 skill) would be more balanced at 23k CPU 19k MW, with the level 5 CC being more balanced at 30k CPU and 24k PG. Which would also make it easier for players to do more intricate and cost-efficient setups. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 00:09:00 -
[746] - Quote
pmchem wrote:ZaBob wrote:What ships will no longer fly in PvP combat?
Our wallets are not the only consideration here. I'm just gonna quote the end of your post because it was representative of the uselessness of the rest of your post. No evidence-based arguments, just some FUD. Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. A scaremonger tactic when you don't have any arguments or evidence to support your wishes. There's a lot of FUD posting going on. When discussing taxes I consistently provide numbers and a discussion of economic impacts. This part of Eve is spreadsheets online, after all. There was nothing 'circular' in my reasoning, just a discussion of competing effects and before/after examples.
Man, there's no pleasing you at all.
I support most of your arguments, especially the ones where you DO give solid concrete numbers. I respect you for giving numbers and doing the calculations, and for making the overall case for what I think is basically a good change.
I point out an area where you may have overstated the case, and you turn it into a personal attack.
Somehow you take basic support and a call for some refinements that may not be to your liking, into FUD.
I don't like you much. either. I'll say that up front. But I try not to let that color my evaluation of your ideas. I don't plan to change that just because you don't like me.
I'd rather focus on your ideas, rather than your personality.
Apparently, you haven't noticed that I've been trying to both address rebuttable fears AND excess certainty, all along. To the extent I'm trying to influence the player base (not much) I try to be encouraging.
Sure, I advocate for a better world for a class of players you are not a member of.
You clearly don't know me very well. I'd very happily dig into the numbers, were numbers actually available for the things I'm talking about. The QEN's seem to have disappeared, and the promised ongoing delayed market data supply appears to have never materialized. I would be very happy to do more global analysis, were it possible.
The portion of your argument that was circular, is that "these are about the right prices, because look, here are these prices and here is what the taxes are", but those prices factor in the influence of the taxes already.
You are, to use a technical term used by those of us who actually do some of this sort of numerical reasoning for a living, overfitting your data.
Please note carefully, I did not say I think your conclusion is incorrect. I'm merely saying this weakens your case. Time and more data will tell. Your conclusion seems plausible to me.
But arguing that people who spout self-serving beliefs as absolute certainty are a bit full of it, hardly qualifies as FUD.
Do keep up the good work. Just try laying off the hostility a bit |
Captain Evenwel
StoneCutterz Shotgun Weddings
3
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 00:10:00 -
[747] - Quote
Rip Minner wrote:Captain Evenwel wrote:electrostatus wrote:Abramul wrote:"All high security Customs Offices are transferred to CONCORD who will charge doubled import and export taxes." http://www.eveonline.com/updates/patchnotes.aspMind changing this to reflect that it's closer to 100 times the old values for P1 and P2? I'd checked there and the two dev blogs before putting in a petition, and drew the conclusion it was bugged. If anyone's wondering what the tax rates were changed from: P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit +edit: I would suggest that a change be made to make single-planet production easier: allow processors to be grouped so that you can change from one material to another and reroute faster. In other numbers, its this: P0: 500%*old P1: 6579%*old P2: 10000%*old P3: 1167%*old P4: 270%*old It'll be even higher at customs offices where the rate is higher than 10%. I'm not sure people quite understand what is happening here. CCP the taxes are not going up by some random percentage rolled by CCP Guard on his mystical board of Dev Deviousness hashing out what tax rates we get. From what has been said and what has been done, it looks like we're moving away from the old per/unit flat tax and looking at a market-based value. This, contrary to belief is far more likely to help even the playing fields for smaller corps all the while pecking at the large indy corps that sell and buy high volume. I actually think it's a far better tax then what we had before. The one thing I look forward to is a full explanation on exactly how they will work as I don't really understand how they would collect that kind of data. Definetly curious. Put the drugs down man crack is bad for you. 1.) Large Indy corps live were? 2.) Player owned Poco's in null sec will be very safe inside allance borders. 3.) They will set the tax's to zero if they want there pos's fueled. So now that you step back put the crack pipe down and take a real look see plz try telling me now this is a good thing for the smaller guys?
Ha! To be honest, I actually had pipe in my hand when I read this. Although no crack...of course as crack is used through the ear silly goose.
Glad to see the discussions improving, it was sort of dull there for a while. Yes, that is what I was getting at Ranger1, the tax rate is a floating value. And all the better for Dust and increased planetary dependency. It would seem to be, in part, an attempt to create a certain control over PI. Wouldn't be shocked if Dust bunnies were able to raid local POCO's or cut off the launch bay in an attempt to destroy or restrict PI resource markets. Definetly a big consequence of Dust within Low and Null Sec leaving your safest bet in Wormholes (and I use safe lightly, we're cowboys out there) as I have heard no mention of rabbit holes....
The real question is, while I agree that in the end PI is ultimately to become very profitable, we're going to need some more permanent investment into planets for the demand of protection to be viable. As is, PI is profitable, but there should definetly be a greater opportunity to put out a lot of risk, including the use of PS3 analog-junkies , followed by a monumental return. (Just as a purely pictoral example of escalation: Everyone = PI manufacturing = low risk, Common Groups = PI + Boon A =Greater risk but ability to counter, Large Groups = PI + Boon A (+) Boon B (+) Boon C = Great risk and not fully controlable within Eve). Green light go, Protected green turn, unprotected right turn...for a traffic analogy I guess.
As for the NinjaPI idea, I like it a lot. It would be great to have ability to not only avoid gantry, albeit illegally, but to also have the ability to blockade run supplies in and out. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 00:24:00 -
[748] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:I think my major objections are still:
- The CC size and the size of the planetary launches should be increased so that you get 2500 m3 capacity at level V of the Command Center Upgrades skill. Even at the 15% export tariff if you go with CC launches, it would then provide an "out" for those who get locked in on a planet with an over-greedy landlord. The larger CC launches would be a way, while still a PITA, to get your product off-planet rather then pay a 30-100% tariff rate at the POCO. It would also ensure that you could continue to operate at a reduced capacity even if you get denied access to the POCO.
- Material requirements on the POCOs are still too high and I would have liked to see multiple sizes so you could trade-off on cost vs HP (or some other trade-off like only a 10k m3 capacity on the cheap version or a 50k m3 capacity on a more expensive model). Without the ability to anchor defenses around them, they need to have material requirements more like POS modules like labs / arrays, not like a medium/large control tower.
- Storage facilities need to be reduced in CPU/PG needs (300 CPU 300 PG) and their capacity needs to be boosted by about 5x to 10x (25k to 50k m3 of storage). This would then provide another "out" for those who are dealing with a destroyed POCO or a POCO where they've been locked out temporarily.
- The amount of PG/CPU available via the Command Center could stand to be boosted more. Especially for the higher level CC's which take longer to train for. The level 4 CC (at CCU4 skill) would be more balanced at 23k CPU 19k MW, with the level 5 CC being more balanced at 30k CPU and 24k PG. Which would also make it easier for players to do more intricate and cost-efficient setups.
I'd like to explicitly add my support for all of these ideas.
The first would go a long way toward addressing my balance concerns with large corps vs small, and also the risks faced by producers. Anything that actually encourages people to have enough confidence to produce, is good for POCO owners who want revenues.
The second also helps balance concerns, and makes it a lot more dynamic and interactive, and would encourage people to actually participate in the POCO milleu in losec.
Before the change to use ECUs, I used to advise people to train up to run level V command centers. But with that change, it became very difficult to get much benefit beyond level IV. I had advocated for allowing more extractor heads, but I think this change better fits the current structure.
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pmchem
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
134
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 00:38:00 -
[749] - Quote
ZaBob wrote: Do keep up the good work. Just try laying off the hostility a bit
Sorry if I come off as overly hostile, I'm used to dealing with terrible, drooling posters such as one guy who keeps replying in my S&I thread. Sometimes my sharpness is intended to be hostile, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's trolling, sometimes it's not. Definitely not trolling when posting about game design issues.
edit: you're still entirely wrong about the overfitting thing, and I have a long history with doing numbers for a living don't worry |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 01:19:00 -
[750] - Quote
pmchem wrote:ZaBob wrote: Do keep up the good work. Just try laying off the hostility a bit
Sorry if I come off as overly hostile, I'm used to dealing with terrible, drooling posters such as one guy who keeps replying in my S&I thread. Sometimes my sharpness is intended to be hostile, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's trolling, sometimes it's not. Definitely not trolling when posting about game design issues. edit: you're still entirely wrong about the overfitting thing, and I have a long history with doing numbers for a living don't worry
Apology accepted.
Regarding the overfitting thing: What I'm seeing in your argument is that you're saying:
Here are these prices. Here are the taxes on these prices But the taxes themselves were based on essentially those prices.
Basically, you're just saying CCP Omen set the prices appropriately, based on the then-current (speculation-fueled) prices.
My point is that this doesn't really say anything about where the market equilibrium would be -- higher or lower. I'm not going to argue with the speculators on that, but I'm not going to conclude equilibrium based on it, either.
Is there something I'm missing in your argument? Feel free to clarify.
Perhaps all you intended was to say "taxes are consistent with the price speculators set". But that's what CCP Omen said they did, so I don't see the value added by that statement?
The other aspect is, I'm not sure how we could agree on what "appropriate" means, without clarifying the goals of the taxation. Perhaps I should just, without further ado, ask you to expand on your thinking with that?
My own thinking is that there's a mismatch between the investment required in POCOs and the return, and the tax rate does address that.
I'd really like to see further economic analysis, though, about the extended effects. I wish we still got the QENs. I wasn't trying to spread fear -- but I was expressing uncertainty about those impacts. PI had already become pretty important. This change makes it more important than ever. Just "more important than ever" is probably a key part of what it needs to be for DUST integration.
And yes, I assumed you work with numbers for a living. I wasn't minimizing your expertise, just asserting my own respect for serious analysis. |
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ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 01:36:00 -
[751] - Quote
To clarify my questions about the impact of funneling more ISK into the hands of nullsec/WH players....
I'm not trying to argue that there's a problem. What I'm pointing to is that the system is very complex and we really don't know how it plays out. I expect CCP has some idea. I hope they are still doing real, deep, and ongoing economic analysis.
What I am saying is that I would really like to know the approximate scale and scope of these impacts. Qualitatively, there's clearly an impact -- take enough ISK out of the hands of one group, and they stop doing whatever they did with those funds.
My question is -- just how sensitive is that balance, and in this particular instance, just where in the game will that impact be felt?
And what will they do about it? And CCP should care about how happy they end up being about it.
Without data, these are rather rhetorical questions. Even so, I pose them because I think some may have more insights than I do about their answers. |
Nekopyat
Nee-Co
13
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 01:38:00 -
[752] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:I can see a ton of good feedback in this thread, thank you so much!
Please keep the good feedback up, but also be aware that the devs are not inhuman machines, working 24 hours around the clock. To process your feedback and to generate some meaningful answers might take a bit. Don"t be discourage by that to post in a constructive way.
See... this makes me want to develop an EvE simulator... so many ideas in such threads, but no way to find out what would actually work well and, of course, the vast majority of posters only have their own perspective to work from. |
Diametrix
Wavefront Industries
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 02:11:00 -
[753] - Quote
Do you all think there is any potential for the new PI/POCO mechanics to enhance Faction Warfare?
I am given to understand the new lack of Plex limits has reinvigorated some FW action. What if FW corps took it upon themselves to claim territorial rights to 'protect the innocent factory workers' on FW planets by erecting POCOs. This would generate some passive income in thier local spaces. Call these Home or Indigenous Customs offices. Like protection racket if run by Pirate corporations.
Of course if the Caldari (or Gallente or others) put up POCOs on the enemys' turf it would be more of an offensive action. Wouldn't Caldari Militia pilots love to strip isk from Gallente players on thier own planets?
Just an idea..... |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
32
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 05:21:00 -
[754] - Quote
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:Severian Carnifex wrote:@ CCP
I have one question for CCP, please consider it. (and 2 more) -> Can you decrease a little tax for launching rocket-can (export by launch) in space and it that way give us oportunity to earn a little more for more work that we have to do?
And few more questions: 1.) Money from launching rocket-can export is going to who? POCO owner or tax like before? I don't see logic that that ISK goes to POCO owner because you launch from your facility and do not use POCO at all. And it would be better that that tax is like before, because it would be ISK sink.
2.) If POCO owner says that you cant use their POCO, can you use launching rocket-can export? It would be logic that you can, because you launch from your facility and do not use POCO at all and it would open ninja PI oportunity in low/0.0 sec. I thought something just like that. And i would like to hear CCP-s opinion on this.
Any one launching from Command Center at 500m3 a launch would burn out with in a week or two. Thoughs few that brave onwards after a week or two will be geting medical treat for there hands/wrist at some future data.
So I think it matters not one way or the other.
|
Abbah
The Autobotz The Cool Kids Club
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 05:22:00 -
[755] - Quote
Rek Esket wrote:Nekopyat wrote:Which conflicts horribly with the original stated idea that PI was supposed to be a low barrier thing that any new player can jump into and make a profit...
Now, unless you have a gang of players in low/null, it is a waste of ISK.
We have two mutually exclusive elements here.... The tax is your only tangible expense for extraction/production once the colony is set up, so as long as you're selling for more than the tax the only thing you're potentially 'wasting' is your time.
I understood the need to increase the tax by double or even tripple but we are talking a 1000% increase which is just not right. Before the increase I was paying 23,400 isk for the import of materials and 468,000 for the export of the finished product. Now it is at 2,340,000 for the inport and 5,46,000 for the export. You do the math. It looks like a 1000% increase to me and that's enough to make it a loosing proposition. There is no profit to be made as it stands now unless the prices go double or tripple what they are now. I just don't see that happening with the larger corps able to set up cusomme offices and pay 0% tax. I mean come on 1000% give me a break. |
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
107
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 05:36:00 -
[756] - Quote
I would really like to know what happened to rocket launch cost and why it now costs 449550 ISK to launch 333 units of P2 into space?? That's 1350 ISK per unit?
It's one thing to have a tariff on Custom Office use whether NPC or Player owned.... it's entirely another to mess with the player colony rocket launch system.
I really can't fathom why this has been penalized when it is not directly linked to the PCO feature?
*(in the past I advocated for a pricier P4 launch penalty with a larger launch capacity trade off - but not for anything under P4!)
I would really really like to hear back about this please. |
milandinia
Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 06:15:00 -
[757] - Quote
the rage in this thread is strong :)
i own several lowsec POCOS with 5% tax, why dont u come and enjoy it? just stop the freakin rage here. its good as it is. |
disasteur
Tellcomtec Incorporated. Preatoriani
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 06:28:00 -
[758] - Quote
milandinia wrote:the rage in this thread is strong :)
i own several lowsec POCOS with 5% tax, why dont u come and enjoy it? just stop the freakin rage here. its good as it is.
first you will tax me then u will shoot me and after that you just loot me |
milandinia
Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 06:56:00 -
[759] - Quote
those pocos are even next to an highsec system, how easy does it need to be? leave highsec, seek isk in lowsec
CCP did nothing wrong, its just that the carebears dont want to go to lowsec where they can get cheap PI, but thats their fault, not CCPs! |
disasteur
Tellcomtec Incorporated. Preatoriani
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 07:26:00 -
[760] - Quote
milandinia wrote:those pocos are even next to an highsec system, how easy does it need to be? leave highsec, seek isk in lowsec
CCP did nothing wrong, its just that the carebears dont want to go to lowsec where they can get cheap PI, but thats their fault, not CCPs!
the first intention of this game is that you could be who you wanted to be, if we decide we want to be carebears its our decision but for many years CCP wants us to go low/null sec while we all know its is ruled by pirates and huge alliances, what CCP wants to achieve is that we make stronger bounds to deal with that problem, but if we dont want to do that?
as for me i need to get away from the keyboard many times when im online that means i seek my isk in those things that have the least risk involved, and 1 of those things is PI, but what we all seem to forget since the introduction of PI many of the things we all buy from our markets are directly or indirectly made posible by the people who doing PI.
the risk with the increased taxes is that a lot of high-sec people (or carebears you call them, what ever rocks your boat) will stop doing planetary interaction, and that means prices will rise overall on those items made posible, and so makes the entire game less atractive
as you might have noticed there is some increase in sell orders on the markets for PI stuff what in my opinion means people already start selling there stock at a slightly increased price, if that dry's up what then? i supose time will tell |
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
25
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 07:39:00 -
[761] - Quote
milandinia wrote:those pocos are even next to an highsec system, how easy does it need to be? leave highsec, seek isk in lowsec
CCP did nothing wrong, its just that the carebears dont want to go to lowsec where they can get cheap PI, but thats their fault, not CCPs! /me takes careful stock of milandinia's -9.9 security status....
Seriously, most of the discussion is around it making losec -- not hisec -- more unattractive economically, and you're talking about people not leaving hisec?
If your 5% tax-rate POCOs become the norm, and if people don't get regularly ganked at the CO by the owner, or cut off from access for the hek of it, or your POCO doesn't get blown up with the same effect to the PI guy, and if you make enough ISK from this to be worth your time and replacement cost if and when your POCO gets blown up...
Then this could all work out well. I think the linchpin is whether you can make enough money as a POCO owner to make it a viable business, and whether PI people can have enough trust that they won't get screwed over by the POCO owners.
I think it's kinda weak on both fronts. But the first part is better than it was originally. I'm seriously considering trying it out of pure curiosity, even if I can't justify it as a business risk.
Let's see how you do in a month or two. I'll add you as a contact -- I'd love to hear from you. |
Quebber
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 09:22:00 -
[762] - Quote
This change needed to happen, PI in hisec had no risk v reward ration nothing at all and whether you like that or not this game does not work on that.
It is a welcome change and as the markets have already proved the price hike in PI items really offsets the taxes it just means that people doing PI in nullsec will get More profit for More risk same with lowsec.
So tell me really where is the problem here ? |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 09:47:00 -
[763] - Quote
Quebber wrote:This change needed to happen, PI in hisec had no risk v reward ration nothing at all and whether you like that or not this game does not work on that.
It is a welcome change and as the markets have already proved the price hike in PI items really offsets the taxes it just means that people doing PI in nullsec will get More profit for More risk same with lowsec.
So tell me really where is the problem here ?
Excellent question!
In a word, the problem I see is: supply. I still haven't seen anyone talking about what happens when the stockpiles are exhausted and we are operating on pure production amounts. Omen has been very reassuring that he is at least listening to people who are very sharp when it comes to the values of these goods. I've seen some ugly things happen when the supply of goods start to starve the market and prices jump through the roof.
I'm really only concerned about these goods prices getting so high that it starts to have a severe negative impact on other aspects of the game. I don't expect a response (direct or otherwise at this point), but I suppose if they are watching prices closely enough, they'll at least see the problem when what I'm worried about does happen. |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
203
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 11:45:00 -
[764] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:milandinia wrote:those pocos are even next to an highsec system, how easy does it need to be? leave highsec, seek isk in lowsec
CCP did nothing wrong, its just that the carebears dont want to go to lowsec where they can get cheap PI, but thats their fault, not CCPs! /me takes careful stock of milandinia's -9.9 security status.... You can't PVP in lowsec for long without ending up as -10. The way it's setup means in every fight one of the sides must either be -10 already or losing sec and so end up as -10. Unless you are a dedicated anti-pirate, but then you need -10s to hunt.
Quote:If your 5% tax-rate POCOs become the norm, and if people don't get regularly ganked at the CO by the owner, or cut off from access for the hek of it, or your POCO doesn't get blown up with the same effect to the PI guy, and if you make enough ISK from this to be worth your time and replacement cost if and when your POCO gets blown up... Being ganked by the owner is no different from being ganked by randoms at an NPC CO. Nobody goes to that much trouble for a hauler kill. And, because the POCO presumably belongs to a PVP corp, it'll get defended. And if blown up, probably replaced if the fight to defend it was fun enough. As bait, it's not all that expensive. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
436
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 11:50:00 -
[765] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote: I'm really only concerned about these goods prices getting so high that it starts to have a severe negative impact on other aspects of the game. I don't expect a response (direct or otherwise at this point), but I suppose if they are watching prices closely enough, they'll at least see the problem when what I'm worried about does happen.
Supply side.
Summer: Hi-sec harvest worlds (P0->P1) earned the owner between 400k and 800k ISK/day. Average of about 600k. Fall: That went up to 900-1100k ISK/day. Average of 1M ISK/day. Now: Still making 1M ISK/day, even with the new tariffs.
So nothing changed there for hi-sec harvesting. However, lo-sec harvesting got a lot riskier. The question for the devs is "how much P1 was produced in hi-sec vs low-sec vs NPC-null vs sov-null vs w-space?".
...
PI harvest worlds are still very easy for the new player to get into, at least in hi-sec.
- 3-4 days to train Command Center Upgrades to 4, Interplanetary Consolidation to 4, and optionally train Planetology to 3. - Setting up a PI harvest world costs about 6.5M ISK for a CCU4 level world. - Payback for a safe hi-sec PI harvest world is now around 7-10 days (used to be 10-14). - Reset daily or every other day, 5-10 minutes to reset 5 worlds. - Haul weekly.
So after that first week, your 35M ISK investment is paying off at 4-5M ISK/day.
We spend a lot of time each week teaching new players how to setup hi-sec PI harvest colonies. They love being in control of a way to make that 4-5M/day. It helps them bankroll getting into other aspects of the game faster. Eventually they might decide to try out doing harvesting at a friendly location in lo-sec, or moving up into the P2/P3/P4 factory worlds. Or they eventually outgrow thinking at 4-5M/day is a lot of ISK and turn to other pursuits. They worry less about losing a tackle frigate in PvP (even though we provide those for free along with the skillbooks to fly them). |
Loki ThorrHammer
GLOBAL DISSENSION KRYSIS.
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 12:57:00 -
[766] - Quote
CCP is doing a very intelligent thing but not telling the whole truth, yet again. Incredibly enough, it was very deliberate of them to increase tax and especially base price of the PI items because of other reasons. Simply put, PI thus far was one of the many untapped isk sinks in the game. This was probably because they wanted to get the system rooted and unchangeable when they did force the issue of it being an isk sink. And they've done that extremely well; all T2, POS/Station Construction, POS Fuel, and many other destructible items depend on these items to function/be achieved. Simple enough, the Devs realized that the sink was too little after altering the isk faucets to such a high degree in recent expansions *cough* incursions *cough*.
They changed the "tax" in a subtle way, they "doubled" it while they made an increase in base price (stealthily) to offset current faucets. They didn't harp on the base price change because they understood it would upset those which do intend to use PI to help support other ventures, such as POS and T2 Construction costs, thus making their industries competitive. Instead they decided to look at those which use PI purely as a profit making industry to ship out and not consume. Because this would not highly effect those individuals as they would simply inflate the price to meet the new profit margins and continue on their merry way. SUCCESS for CCP, as they would create a much larger sink for the end user, and the sink would follow through to all the other destructible products which are created by the initial PI making them more expensive. ALSO SUCCESS. It's a domino effect which started at the beginning (Taxation and "base Prices"), inflates and thus helps curve the faucet of their other failed projects. SUCCESS FOR CCP
Though, on the other hand, CCP is very possibly going about this in the most irate manner possible. Instead of clogging up isk faucets like the dreaded 5 minute 10.5 Mil Vanguard Incursion, they instead choose to turn the other cheek and force a cascading inflation inducing isk sink. They've decided to give us all the candy we could ever want, but make it so buying anything worth playing with cost twice as much candy to have. But "Oh well," says CCP, "They'll just use one of our many broken means of making isk to get it all back," figuring in that all items which use T2 mods will simply be payed for by alliances and individuals with loads of incursion isk and mountains of rat loot....
CCP never fails to disappoint with their extremely shortsighted quick fix to everything which they've done wrong. |
tengen san
Triton-TC
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 13:20:00 -
[767] - Quote
pmchem wrote: A rebalance in 2012 based on market values at that time may end up raising the reference tax values.
This only would occur if the reference Market value is taken inclusive the Tax portion of the market price at the time of evaluation. Of course you have to evaluate on the net market value.
A yearly adjustment rather would support a self-regulated median price levels on the market, with assumable lower prices at the end of the year. Speculations still would occur on single Tier Items during the year, but a yearly adjustment keeps the market much more in balance as the level of adjustments is in playerGÇÖs hands prior to the adjustment.
It may raise it/ it may lower it, from todayGÇÖs point there is no way to determine
|
Ogi Talvanen
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
76
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 13:55:00 -
[768] - Quote
Thing is this is in fact high sec incursion tax because CONCORD needs lot of isk to pay for sansha incursions. |
Var Redin
SaberCorp Draconian Protection Syndicate
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 14:24:00 -
[769] - Quote
Well this is 15 a month i wont have to spend anymore. |
Leoresdectena
Gem Concordance
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 16:07:00 -
[770] - Quote
Yet Another LIE out of CCP.
You CLAIM you're trying to work on player trust issues, then you pull THIS?
Proof positive that CCP has NOT learned what player trust means.
The blog SPECIFIED that the taxes would double. What is so hard to understand about ballpark 100 TIMES the tax rate not being what you CLAIMED you were doing?
I'm very happy I was already working to get rid of all my PI alts. This change as far as I am concerned makes PI a totally worthless time sink, it was ALREADY marginal on profitability compared to even MINING, now it's far below MINING as a profit-making activity.
I pity the poor folks trying to keep their POS running when the PI materials pricing goes through the ROOF due to yet another NOT THOUGHT OUT change to SCREW THE PLAYERS on CCP's part.
|
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 16:36:00 -
[771] - Quote
Loki ThorrHammer wrote:CCP is doing a very intelligent thing but not telling the whole truth, yet again. Incredibly enough, it was very deliberate of them to increase tax and especially base price of the PI items because of other reasons. Simply put, PI thus far was one of the many untapped isk sinks in the game. This was probably because they wanted to get the system rooted and unchangeable when they did force the issue of it being an isk sink. And they've done that extremely well; all T2, POS/Station Construction, POS Fuel, and many other destructible items depend on these items to function/be achieved. Simple enough, the Devs realized that the sink was too little after altering the isk faucets to such a high degree in recent expansions *cough* incursions *cough*.
They changed the "tax" in a subtle way, they "doubled" it while they made an increase in base price (stealthily) to offset current faucets. They didn't harp on the base price change because they understood it would upset those which do intend to use PI to help support other ventures, such as POS and T2 Construction costs, thus making their industries competitive. Instead they decided to look at those which use PI purely as a profit making industry to ship out and not consume. Because this would not highly effect those individuals as they would simply inflate the price to meet the new profit margins and continue on their merry way. SUCCESS for CCP, as they would create a much larger sink for the end user, and the sink would follow through to all the other destructible products which are created by the initial PI making them more expensive. ALSO SUCCESS. It's a domino effect which started at the beginning (Taxation and "base Prices"), inflates and thus helps curve the faucet of their other failed projects. SUCCESS FOR CCP
Though, on the other hand, CCP is very possibly going about this in the most irate manner possible. Instead of clogging up isk faucets like the dreaded 5 minute 10.5 Mil Vanguard Incursion, they instead choose to turn the other cheek and force a cascading inflation inducing isk sink. They've decided to give us all the candy we could ever want, but make it so buying anything worth playing with cost twice as much candy to have. But "Oh well," says CCP, "They'll just use one of our many broken means of making isk to get it all back," figuring in that all items which use T2 mods will simply be payed for by alliances and individuals with loads of incursion isk and mountains of rat loot....
CCP never fails to disappoint with their extremely shortsighted quick fix to everything which they've done wrong.
The thing to note here is that by making these ISK faucets so big, one might think CCP is forcing us to take part in those activities. One might also think that this puts the ball in their court, not ours when it comes to deciding how we spend our game time. I personally don't like spending a ton of money in eve (my toys are relatively cheap) and I usually engage in the best effort/isk ratio activities in the game. But I could see this being a concern for those guys that like to PVP in faction battleships and the like.
|
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
59
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 16:40:00 -
[772] - Quote
Leoresdectena wrote:Yet Another LIE out of CCP.
You CLAIM you're trying to work on player trust issues, then you pull THIS?
Proof positive that CCP has NOT learned what player trust means.
The blog SPECIFIED that the taxes would double. What is so hard to understand about ballpark 100 TIMES the tax rate not being what you CLAIMED you were doing?
I'm very happy I was already working to get rid of all my PI alts. This change as far as I am concerned makes PI a totally worthless time sink, it was ALREADY marginal on profitability compared to even MINING, now it's far below MINING as a profit-making activity.
I pity the poor folks trying to keep their POS running when the PI materials pricing goes through the ROOF due to yet another NOT THOUGHT OUT change to SCREW THE PLAYERS on CCP's part.
This is fairly short sighted. You're really missing the key gripes that have been discussed ad vomitum. I would comment on the mistake being less of a trust issue and more of a simple communication issue or oversight. The players would find out anyway if it was purposeful to hide the fact that taxes would go up.
But if you'd like to be part of the discussion too, I'd strongly encourage you to go back through the other 100+ pages of comments that have already been put forth on what to do about the situation. |
Vigoth Ritic
Frozen Corpse Inc.
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 16:57:00 -
[773] - Quote
Time to BURN the PLACE DOWN!!!!!
Burn every low sec and 0.0 OFFICE. never allow CCP to get the tax, never put a new office up, Let the prices go up. BURN EVE BURN
I got my Pitch fork ready !!!! |
Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
9
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 17:43:00 -
[774] - Quote
I know it's been less than a week ...BUT. I just checked the 40 low systems in Black Rise and there is a grand total of 2 PCO's. I then checked the closest low system to my home high sec system and there was one PCO around, you guessed it, the PLASMA planet and it was in reinforced.
Please tell me this is a Joke? |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
203
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:05:00 -
[775] - Quote
Lone Gunman wrote:I know it's been less than a week ...BUT. I just checked the 40 low systems in Black Rise and there is a grand total of 2 PCO's. It's too early, many people were not aware of the POCO introduction, and gantries are perceived to be expensive on the market at the moment.
Quote:I then checked the closest low system to my home high sec system and there was one PCO around, you guessed it, the PLASMA planet and it was in reinforced. Working as intended. You can still use the POCO while it's reinforced.
Quote:Please tell me this is a Joke? What? You disapprove of fighting over resources? In EVE? |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 19:31:00 -
[776] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Lone Gunman wrote:I know it's been less than a week ...BUT. I just checked the 40 low systems in Black Rise and there is a grand total of 2 PCO's. It's too early, many people were not aware of the POCO introduction, and gantries are perceived to be expensive on the market at the moment. Quote:I then checked the closest low system to my home high sec system and there was one PCO around, you guessed it, the PLASMA planet and it was in reinforced. Working as intended. You can still use the POCO while it's reinforced. Quote:Please tell me this is a Joke? What? You disapprove of fighting over resources? In EVE?
This is the kind of instability that I was thinking would drive a lot of people from low sec either into high sec or out of the PI market entirely. There will be people around that will want to make this work, but there will be a large portion of the population that will shoot these things simply because they can . It's not been a big deal all over yet because of the sparse population in some areas. It's simply the nature of the population in low sec that makes these kinds of defenseless structures targets. Defending all of the POCOs, repping all of the POCOs, replacing all of the POCOs in even one region I believe will be more than the current low-sec population will tolerate.
This was the mechanic that I was suggesting get looked at so that the impending supply shock doesn't kill the economy |
Kblackjack54
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 20:55:00 -
[777] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Jack Dant wrote:Lone Gunman wrote:I know it's been less than a week ...BUT. I just checked the 40 low systems in Black Rise and there is a grand total of 2 PCO's. It's too early, many people were not aware of the POCO introduction, and gantries are perceived to be expensive on the market at the moment. Quote:I then checked the closest low system to my home high sec system and there was one PCO around, you guessed it, the PLASMA planet and it was in reinforced. Working as intended. You can still use the POCO while it's reinforced. Quote:Please tell me this is a Joke? What? You disapprove of fighting over resources? In EVE? This is the kind of instability that I was thinking would drive a lot of people from low sec either into high sec or out of the PI market entirely. There will be people around that will want to make this work, but there will be a large portion of the population that will shoot these things simply because they can . It's not been a big deal all over yet because of the sparse population in some areas. It's simply the nature of the population in low sec that makes these kinds of defenseless structures targets. Defending all of the POCOs, repping all of the POCOs, replacing all of the POCOs in even one region I believe will be more than the current low-sec population will tolerate. This was the mechanic that I was suggesting get looked at so that the impending supply shock doesn't kill the economy
Players do not 'Disapprove' of fighting over resources, what they disapprove of is a small number of players dictating to all what they can and cannot do in EVE.
POCO's were when first announced a bad idea poorly thought through but influenced by certain large alliances using there current contacts in CCP.
Now they have become a reality, one the influence of which has yet to be fully understood but first indications are that this one item will cause a cascade effect through out EVE to the detriment of player enjoyment of the game.
Prediction: Empire space is going to become very crowded indeed, T1 is going to become the norm fit, if you can afford a ship to fit them on, PoS are going to become a thing of the past and 0.0 is going to become the mono culture that certain Alliances wanted.
Other than that Great Update guys, true to every Nuance that CCP stands for......UTTERLY SCREWED. |
LarpingBard
Pendragon Exploration STR8NGE BREW
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 21:23:00 -
[778] - Quote
So basically Hi Sec will do fine after the market recovers, Lo Sec is screwed due to no way to defend pco properlly, Null sec will survive but with larger alliances able to support pcos screwing the smaller alliances.
How does this balance or improve anything? |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
637
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 21:40:00 -
[779] - Quote
LarpingBard wrote:So basically Hi Sec will do fine after the market recovers, Lo Sec is screwed due to no way to defend pco properlly, Null sec will survive but with larger alliances able to support pcos screwing the smaller alliances.
How does this balance or improve anything?
I hate to use the analogy, but if you consider "balance" giving more to the 1% and taking it from the 99% to do so, then you'll have thier idea of balance.
* Forgive the political analogy, best I could come up with. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
27
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 22:22:00 -
[780] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:ZaBob wrote:milandinia wrote:those pocos are even next to an highsec system, how easy does it need to be? leave highsec, seek isk in lowsec
CCP did nothing wrong, its just that the carebears dont want to go to lowsec where they can get cheap PI, but thats their fault, not CCPs! /me takes careful stock of milandinia's -9.9 security status.... You can't PVP in lowsec for long without ending up as -10. The way it's setup means in every fight one of the sides must either be -10 already or losing sec and so end up as -10. Unless you are a dedicated anti-pirate, but then you need -10s to hunt.
Yes, of course. milandinia's clearly an established pvper. Useful data. But in this context, I meant it as a little half-jest: "what hisec carebear is going to trusty you".
Jack Dant wrote:Quote:If your 5% tax-rate POCOs become the norm, and if people don't get regularly ganked at the CO by the owner, or cut off from access for the hek of it, or your POCO doesn't get blown up with the same effect to the PI guy, and if you make enough ISK from this to be worth your time and replacement cost if and when your POCO gets blown up... Being ganked by the owner is no different from being ganked by randoms at an NPC CO. Nobody goes to that much trouble for a hauler kill. And, because the POCO presumably belongs to a PVP corp, it'll get defended. And if blown up, probably replaced if the fight to defend it was fun enough. As bait, it's not all that expensive.
One thing that's not clear to me yet is how much information the POCO gets about their customers, how that information will be handled within the corp, whether bored corp members might use that to go "Oh, that's FreddyBear; he's going to the CO at Planet X, let's go gank him for giggles". I don't think that'll happen a lot, but what will matter is whether FreddyBear thinks it does. If that information isn't available, then no change.
But regardless, I think you slightly misinterpret my remarks. I wasn't arguing that all -- or even any -- would be why this will fail. I was saying that if none of those factors derail it, it might succeed.
So if you want to earn money from your POCO taxes, don't gank your customers - consider protecting them instead. Protect your POCOs, with firepower and diplomacy.
I'm pretty sure the fight to defend it would be a lot more fun than the fight to take it down. :) Personally, I don't expect a lot of that, though. But I'd say it's an open question whether anyone BUT a corp with a strong PvP contingent can keep one up for long. |
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
27
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 22:38:00 -
[781] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
PI harvest worlds are still very easy for the new player to get into, at least in hi-sec.
- 3-4 days to train Command Center Upgrades to 4, Interplanetary Consolidation to 4, and optionally train Planetology to 3. - Setting up a PI harvest world costs about 6.5M ISK for a CCU4 level world. - Payback for a safe hi-sec PI harvest world is now around 7-10 days (used to be 10-14). - Reset daily or every other day, 5-10 minutes to reset 5 worlds. - Haul weekly.
So after that first week, your 35M ISK investment is paying off at 4-5M ISK/day.
We spend a lot of time each week teaching new players how to setup hi-sec PI harvest colonies. They love being in control of a way to make that 4-5M/day. It helps them bankroll getting into other aspects of the game faster. Eventually they might decide to try out doing harvesting at a friendly location in lo-sec, or moving up into the P2/P3/P4 factory worlds. Or they eventually outgrow thinking at 4-5M/day is a lot of ISK and turn to other pursuits. They worry less about losing a tackle frigate in PvP (even though we provide those for free along with the skillbooks to fly them).
When I was no longer a new player, but still struggling financially due to not having time to do more profitable activities, a friend donated a small amount for me to get started in PI. And it had just the effect you describe, and I've passed that on to many since.
This was, in fact, my own path into leaving hisec behind for life in losec. That's why I care about making the losec aspects of this work, even though now losec is just a slightly more dangerous stretch along my routes to and from my wormhole.
I think losec is a valuable learning ground, but for it to work, it has to provide a reasonable learning path, and a reasonable ISK reward. Neither tight control of PI by large alliances nor abandonment as a PI wasteland would be good for relatively new players, and thus not good for the game.
What's needed is for the balance to be struck that allows it to be enticingly profitable, yet accessible to players who can't fly a blockade runner, nor have the backing of a fleet of PvP-capable corpmates. These people should have a viable shot at this. If that happens, I personally will deem this a success, at least for the PI side.
I'm still quite disturbed and perturbed by the corporatist way this is designed, that POCOs can only be owned by corporations, not players. I think that's entirely the wrong direction. But it's not likely to be a big factor in the overall success, at least as it's designed now. |
milandinia
Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 22:45:00 -
[782] - Quote
if someone wants to test it, mail "Julia Rankin" and i set the tax rate to 1% for these chars
the POCOS are in 3x Ostingele (0.2) 1x Haroule (0.1) and 1x Cumemare (0.1) |
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
204
|
Posted - 2011.12.03 23:45:00 -
[783] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:One thing that's not clear to me yet is how much information the POCO gets about their customers, how that information will be handled within the corp, whether bored corp members might use that to go "Oh, that's FreddyBear; he's going to the CO at Planet X, let's go gank him for giggles". I don't think that'll happen a lot, but what will matter is whether FreddyBear thinks it does. If that information isn't available, then no change. It is displayed in corp wallet. But that information is already available via the planet view anyway (admitedly, it's far clumsier than just reading).
Edit: forgot to add, the CO is so big, it's not all that easy to catch someone taking due precautions, such as checking the CO from an on grid spot and warping to it at an odd angle.
Quote:But regardless, I think you slightly misinterpret my remarks. I wasn't arguing that all -- or even any -- would be why this will fail. I was saying that if none of those factors derail it, it might succeed.
So if you want to earn money from your POCO taxes, don't gank your customers - consider protecting them instead. Protect your POCOs, with firepower and diplomacy. For anecdotal evidence, a few days ago I helped a friend, -10, to setup a POCO. A bit later he told me about his first customer: "I thought he was at a safe and was probing him down. Then I saw my wallet flash and thought i'd let him go".
Quote:I'm pretty sure the fight to defend it would be a lot more fun than the fight to take it down. :) Personally, I don't expect a lot of that, though. But I'd say it's an open question whether anyone BUT a corp with a strong PvP contingent can keep one up for long. Probably not. But a PVP corp does not have an interest in closing planets to outsiders, so in the end they are the best neutral holders. I have found "lowsec carebears" tend to be a lot more openly territorial than pirates. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
27
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 00:13:00 -
[784] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:ZaBob wrote:[quote=Jack Dant]One thing that's not clear to me yet is how much information the POCO gets about their customers, how that information will be handled within the corp, whether bored corp members might use that to go "Oh, that's FreddyBear; he's going to the CO at Planet X, let's go gank him for giggles". I don't think that'll happen a lot, but what will matter is whether FreddyBear thinks it does. If that information isn't available, then no change. It is displayed in corp wallet. But that information is already available via the planet view anyway (admitedly, it's far clumsier than just reading). Quote:But regardless, I think you slightly misinterpret my remarks. I wasn't arguing that all -- or even any -- would be why this will fail. I was saying that if none of those factors derail it, it might succeed.
So if you want to earn money from your POCO taxes, don't gank your customers - consider protecting them instead. Protect your POCOs, with firepower and diplomacy. For anecdotal evidence, a few days ago I helped a friend, -10, to setup a POCO. A bit later he told me about his first customer: "I thought he was at a safe and was probing him down. Then I saw my wallet flash and thought i'd let him go". Quote:I'm pretty sure the fight to defend it would be a lot more fun than the fight to take it down. :) Personally, I don't expect a lot of that, though. But I'd say it's an open question whether anyone BUT a corp with a strong PvP contingent can keep one up for long. Probably not. But a PVP corp does not have an interest in closing planets to outsiders, so in the end they are the best neutral holders. I have found "lowsec carebears" tend to be a lot more openly territorial than pirates.
Information about when a PI person visits the planet isn't in the PI interface. Of course, that's only relevant if they're predictable.
Finding PI installations on planets is so painful I seldom bother, even when it's in my economic interest to do so, and even with my strong curiosity. If you want interaction with Planetary Interaction, we need to be able to see each other!
Hell, if I've been using a planet for a while and move things around a few times -- I have a hek of a time finding my OWN installations.
Thanks for the anecdote. I wonder what his reaction to his 100th customer will be? |
Jason C
ProtoStar Trading
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 00:44:00 -
[785] - Quote
Bottom line is this... CCP is turning my fun into a job. And I'm not here to "work". |
Sluht Hunter
ProtoStar Trading
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 01:08:00 -
[786] - Quote
Jason C wrote:Bottom line is this... CCP is turning my fun into a job. And I'm not here to "work".
+1
we figured up build cost and upgrade to do our wh planets.. 1.84 billion isk.. and all we do is pull pi for pos fuel in there. This is almost more intolerable than when we were paying pi taxes to concord in a WH.. and receiving none of the concord benefits like protection or sov. Thanks again CCP. ... NOT
|
tengen san
Triton-TC
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 02:04:00 -
[787] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:
Thanks for the anecdote. I wonder what his reaction to his 100th customer will be?
I do low sec PI for a good while now, just had blown a hauler two weeks ago. Empty cargo and the sleepy thought GÇ£what the heck it will workGÇ¥. Well, it did not!
Any other of my aprox, 250 rides in low sec I never had a problem. I worked out a pick up procedure enabling me to: align to gate, get out of cloak, open CO hangar, pick up the god's and warp out within 2,0 sec.( this isnGÇÖt the sequence I use so donGÇÖt try) I have no intentions to change that just because I have become customer to a POCO corp. And being able now to select "jump" is just a great feature and makes business in low sec become regular for me, getting on stations with a ME/copy slot NOT waiting for 40 days getting in one.
And yes, if I get along with the owner and the POCO gets under attack, I would come by to defend it, itGÇÖs existence is in my interest just. So, pew pew around it is OK and fine with me.
|
Illectroculus Defined
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
24
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 05:24:00 -
[788] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:To suggest that this will negatively impact the economy of eve would be like suggesting that flying a noob ship into a pirate choke point solo is a bad idea or that CCP has no real clue about how the game works outside nullsec.
As threatened I proved how utterly ridiculous this posters statement was by making a video of what happens when you fly a noob ship into the infamous lowsec pirate hangout of Amamake. To further grind home the original posters lack of understanding the character had no skills trained and the person actually playing the game was a 6 year old girl.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQaBiUQkaRE
It'd a very uneventful video, but then again this whole thing is a metaphor for the PI economy, the sky isn't falling, prices will adjust, and PI will continue to be profitable. |
disasteur
Tellcomtec Incorporated. Preatoriani
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 05:36:00 -
[789] - Quote
Illectroculus Defined wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:To suggest that this will negatively impact the economy of eve would be like suggesting that flying a noob ship into a pirate choke point solo is a bad idea or that CCP has no real clue about how the game works outside nullsec. As threatened I proved how utterly ridiculous this posters statement was by making a video of what happens when you fly a noob ship into the infamous lowsec pirate hangout of Amamake. To further grind home the original posters lack of understanding the character had no skills trained and the person actually playing the game was a 6 year old girl. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQaBiUQkaREIt'd a very uneventful video, but then again this whole thing is a metaphor for the PI economy, the sky isn't falling, prices will adjust, and PI will continue to be profitable.
the sky is falling and my computer cant take the tax rate, my display driver is protesting and my mouse doesnt dare to come near a customs office ever again |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 06:11:00 -
[790] - Quote
Illectroculus Defined wrote:Cygnet Lythanea wrote:To suggest that this will negatively impact the economy of eve would be like suggesting that flying a noob ship into a pirate choke point solo is a bad idea or that CCP has no real clue about how the game works outside nullsec. As threatened I proved how utterly ridiculous this posters statement was by making a video of what happens when you fly a noob ship into the infamous lowsec pirate hangout of Amamake. To further grind home the original posters lack of understanding the character had no skills trained and the person actually playing the game was a 6 year old girl. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQaBiUQkaREIt'd a very uneventful video, but then again this whole thing is a metaphor for the PI economy, the sky isn't falling, prices will adjust, and PI will continue to be profitable.
Uneventful? I don't think that's the word I'd use.
How about "Delightful?"
My wife would smartbomb ME if I involved my daughter (some battles aren't worth fighting), but I enjoyed watching yours play and interact with you. Good dad!
And a nice expository, too. I thought about responding to that post; I'm glad I didn't; you did a much better job.
It's not flying a noob ship through a pirate haven that's a bad idea, it's being a ->clueless<- noob flying through a pirate haven in a ship you don't even know how to fly properly, that's a bad idea. Like my first losec adventure in my shiny new Catalyst, way back when.
Mentioning smartbombs was a nice touch. I lost a frigate to a smartbomb once, zipping along losec, saw all the wrecks and the red as I warped to the gate, but figured I was safe enough, as I jumped through -- and was then puzzled why my ship suddenly had more cap. I was half-way to the next gate before I realized I was in my pod, and half-way to my destination before I figured out why, and checked my log to confirm.
But I hope you didn't lump me in with the OP! Not all of us who have concerns about balance and the effect on losec PI are afraid to fly a noob ship through a gate camp. My own concerns center more around the dynamics of POCOs and whether their economics and interactions are balanced well enough to make it economical. If POCOs end up being scarce, there won't be a reason to fly that cargo frigate past that gate.
And there are aspects of the mechanics I just don't like -- like being one more corp-only thing.
I don't claim to know what's going to happen. It all depends on thousands of interacting decisions by thousands of players, interacting, and on CCP's subsequent tweaks. There are some possible futures I don't like, where POCOs are too much trouble to put up and maintain, or the tax rates are set to not give enough incentive for people to move to losec.
There are things that make such a future less likely -- and the higher tax rates are, in my estimation at least, one of things that might help this work. I don't like the way they were introduced, nor how they were calculated, but you have to make POCOs a viable enterprise in losec, and the higher taxes help that considerably.
Anyway, thanks for that video. I'm actually going to find a way to use that in training pilots for losec. I wish I'd seen it early in my career, it would have helped me understand how things worked much better. And I can't think of a better confidence builder than having your daughter demonstrate how it's done! |
|
Elayae
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 10:44:00 -
[791] - Quote
After a couple of days experimenting with the new PI I have a few concerns about the recording of taxation in the custom offices.
It's not about the height of the tax or anything just that the payments are recorded in the journal with date, time and the planet number. This information can be used to exploit the planetary producers. The pick up times and other activities can be recorded by the receiver and they can set up attacks accordingly by themselves or others.
The new system can be exploited by good organized pilots, so I ask that the planet number may be removed from the journal entry. Perhaps the entry should be removed entirely from the journal.
|
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
204
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 11:59:00 -
[792] - Quote
Elayae wrote:After a couple of days experimenting with the new PI I have a few concerns about the recording of taxation in the custom offices. It's not about the height of the tax or anything just that the payments are recorded in the journal with date, time and the planet number. This information can be used to exploit the planetary producers. The pick up times and other activities can be recorded by the receiver and they can set up attacks accordingly by themselves or others. The new system can be exploited by good organized pilots, so I ask that the planet number may be removed from the journal entry. Perhaps the entry should be removed entirely from the journal. The planet number is required, because operators need to know which of their POCOs are profitable and which aren't. You could argue about the pilot name, but I can think of as many good uses for that as bad. If the intel it provides becomes a problem, the best solution would be to delay entries as it does with rat bounties, so the time becomes fuzzy.
But really, even if POCOs are not that expensive, people will prefer to get their investment back and not drive away customers. So attacks on the haulers should be rare. |
Yosarian
Koshaku Gentlemen's Agreement
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 14:02:00 -
[793] - Quote
Having spent time buried in spreadsheet calculating various tax rates for different PI operations, the changes overall make sense and certainly add a lot more 'meaning' to PI as an activity.
I would suggest changes to give POCO owners more control over how they set tax:
- Allow the POCO owner to set different tax levels for each tier of product.
Eg: a POCO owner could set a high 'extraction tax' (tier 0-1) whilst having a lower 'processing tax' (tiers 2-4).
- Allow the POCO owner to set different tax levels on different commodities.
Eg: a POCO owner could lower the cost of production of certain commodities (eg needed pos fuels) whilst keeping a higher tax for everything else
Not the easiest UI to design, but more control = more options for players to create business models. The UI should enable grouping of POCOs, so tax changes / settings can be managed over large amounts of POCOs.
Another thought: a means of advertising POCOs might be interesting. Perhaps similar to fleet finder (eg: options to show only to players with certain standings). This would enable POCO owners to compete on price, then bring in customers.
In other words... right direction, but more fine-grained control please. |
Akane Mishima
United Abominations Mercenary Management
2
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 14:58:00 -
[794] - Quote
Yosarian wrote:Having spent time buried in spreadsheet calculating various tax rates for different PI operations, the changes overall make sense and certainly add a lot more 'meaning' to PI as an activity.
I would suggest changes to give POCO owners more control over how they set tax:
- Allow the POCO owner to set different tax levels for each tier of product.
Eg: a POCO owner could set a high 'extraction tax' (tier 0-1) whilst having a lower 'processing tax' (tiers 2-4).
- Allow the POCO owner to set different tax levels on different commodities.
Eg: a POCO owner could lower the cost of production of certain commodities (eg needed pos fuels) whilst keeping a higher tax for everything else
Not the easiest UI to design, but more control = more options for players to create business models. The UI should enable grouping of POCOs, so tax changes / settings can be managed over large amounts of POCOs.
Another thought: a means of advertising POCOs might be interesting. Perhaps similar to fleet finder (eg: options to show only to players with certain standings). This would enable POCO owners to compete on price, then bring in customers.
In other words... right direction, but more fine-grained control please.
There we go something I can agree with. Getting POCO owners and PI peeps to work together seems alot more enjoyable, sustainable ISK rather than having them work against eachother. I like the idea of the tax rates being different for PI, that way maybe we could cut a deal like me supplying a certain amount of Fuel and I get a discount off Taxes.
I think POCOs should actually be better than the current concord customs offices, is there any difference between them? If not I'd like there to be some form of upgrade to work towards to make my operations much more convienent and giving the POCOs owner an advantage over other planets. |
tengen san
Triton-TC
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 17:10:00 -
[795] - Quote
Yosarian wrote: - Allow the POCO owner to set different tax levels for each tier of product.
Eg: a POCO owner could set a high 'extraction tax' (tier 0-1) whilst having a lower 'processing tax' (tiers 2-4).
- Allow the POCO owner to set different tax levels on different commodities.
Eg: a POCO owner could lower the cost of production of certain commodities (eg needed pos fuels) whilst keeping a higher tax for everything else
In other words... right direction, but more fine-grained control please.
I really think this is an excellent proposal. As for now Players control of the tax volume seems to be limited and is one reason for the confusion.With a yearly adjustment on the taxable market value this would bring a better dynamic in market pricing.
Akane Mishima wrote: I think POCOs should actually be better than the current concord customs offices, is there any difference between them? If not I'd like there to be some form of upgrade to work towards to make my operations much more convienent and giving the POCOs owner an advantage over other planets.
I agree here, the advantage doing the investment and taking the management effort should not end only by collecting taxes but certifies conjoint with extended variables in taxation compared to the Concord system.
|
tengen san
Triton-TC
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 17:15:00 -
[796] - Quote
Jack Dant wrote:Elayae wrote:After a couple of days experimenting with the new PI I have a few concerns about the recording of taxation in the custom offices. It's not about the height of the tax or anything just that the payments are recorded in the journal with date, time and the planet number. This information can be used to exploit the planetary producers. The pick up times and other activities can be recorded by the receiver and they can set up attacks accordingly by themselves or others. The new system can be exploited by good organized pilots, so I ask that the planet number may be removed from the journal entry. Perhaps the entry should be removed entirely from the journal. The planet number is required, because operators need to know which of their POCOs are profitable and which aren't. You could argue about the pilot name, but I can think of as many good uses for that as bad. If the intel it provides becomes a problem, the best solution would be to delay entries as it does with rat bounties, so the time becomes fuzzy. But really, even if POCOs are not that expensive, people will prefer to get their investment back and not drive away customers. So attacks on the haulers should be rare.
Delay entries could be a way to go, 3- 5 min. should be efficient and effective enough to leave the system. But the issue is conquerable; it would be more time consuming so. Fly in on a save, launch all your goods, (wallet flash, POCO owner) come back later to pick them up, I never have seen anyone patient enough to wait for me longer than 30 min.
You have to get known to the environment youGÇÖre in. Doing two PickupGÇÖs in a row (fly in-fly out) is the max before you get attention by randoms. |
tengen san
Triton-TC
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 17:18:00 -
[797] - Quote
Omen there is one issue I would like the PI team to take a look at.
While the Hangars were still existing I could open the hangar window and it stayed open and good showed up right after launch. By now all goods have to be retrieved via the CO/POCO storage, the CO window close once I execute the launch. To retrieve the goods the CO window need to get reopened once again. One extra, not necessarily, rather excessive click with negative time effect in low and 0.0., and sure a nuisance in high sec.
|
Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
1
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 17:36:00 -
[798] - Quote
Is it the case that customs offices never drop loot when destroyed? I blew up an Interbus CO on Singularity, after filling it with PI stuff, and it didn't drop anything. I think it should drop at least a portion of its contents, plus maybe some gantry construction components. This would make the hours spent shooting one a little more worthwhile. |
tengen san
Triton-TC
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 18:00:00 -
[799] - Quote
Ang Min wrote:Is it the case that customs offices never drop loot when destroyed? I blew up an Interbus CO on Singularity, after filling it with PI stuff, and it didn't drop anything. I think it should drop at least a portion of its contents, plus maybe some gantry construction components. This would make the hours spent shooting one a little more worthwhile.
I belive the Idea behind it was exactly not to make it worthwhile, but only for competing reasons. |
Wolodymyr
Mando'a Navy Controlled Chaos
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 20:06:00 -
[800] - Quote
CCP Guard wrote:By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, Will the taxes update as the PI market prices change?
Right now people are driving up the PI prices in response to the taxes. If the taxes don't auto update we might have the same absurdly low tax rate as before, but with just a bit higher prices. |
|
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 20:53:00 -
[801] - Quote
Wolodymyr wrote:CCP Guard wrote:By repairing the taxes to be... a) Based on market value and b) Player set, Will the taxes update as the PI market prices change? Right now people are driving up the PI prices in response to the taxes. If the taxes don't auto update we might have the same absurdly low tax rate as before, but with just a bit higher prices. While I'm in favor of a suitable update process (i.e. averaged over time) and allowing it to find an equilibrium, but the result you describe doesn't really apply, at least not as I would describe "absurdly low tax rate".
There's no pressing need for these to be taxed at some specific rate. We don't tax ANY other extraction or production process. The fact that these are taxed at all is an anomaly, and always has been.
But the taxes are needed to make the POCO business viable. The tax rates as a percentage of actual current market rates dropping won't reduce the ISK the POCO receives; it only becomes a negative if that's part of an overall inflationary process.
Of course, if they're not updated, the POCO owner won't directly benefit from any price rise, or suffer from any drop. He might indirectly benefit from a rise if it means more activity on his planet. I definitely think it's good for the POCO to have a stake in the market as well as the direct activity. I can't see it has much impact on the economy -- but it makes it more interesting, with a greater upside for POCO ownership, but also introducing market risk.
I'd like to see it be updated continuously, rather than based on CCP updates, based on a broad market average, approximately gaussian-weighted over a 180-day window or so. This would make them responsive to current fluctuations, but not so much to brief spikes. I'd also subtract the total tax-to-that-level right off the top in computing the base, to minimize the positive feedback.
But it really bothers me to see people talk about "absurdly low rates" or "appropriate rates", or "absurdly high rates" for that matter. I don't see that you can actually have a discussion around such ideas, as there is basically nothing to base them on. Instead, look at the POCO business, and whether it is thriving for both POCO owners and their customers, in each of hisec, losec, nullsec, and W-space. If you entice more new players into losec as well, then you have a real winner. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
439
|
Posted - 2011.12.04 21:42:00 -
[802] - Quote
Ang Min wrote:Is it the case that customs offices never drop loot when destroyed? I blew up an Interbus CO on Singularity, after filling it with PI stuff, and it didn't drop anything. I think it should drop at least a portion of its contents, plus maybe some gantry construction components. This would make the hours spent shooting one a little more worthwhile.
That was a specific design choice by the devs so that they wouldn't be treated as loot pinatas (to be blown up for the contents). Instead, now they'll only be blown up for business reasons (to put up your own POCO) or for PvP purposes (burning of the fields). |
StillBorn CrackBaby
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 00:42:00 -
[803] - Quote
Certis wrote:And to answer all the sucks who will just say, "well do something else, do this or do that" I say: Who the hell are you to tell anyone else how to play the game that they pay for. It is partly due to sucks like you that just sit back and take it up the rear end, that this once great game has been allowed to gradually decline in to a shadow of it's former self and is losing subscribers by the truckload - and will continue to do so each and every time CCP keep moving the goal posts. Melodramatic snivelling. I mean just who the hell are you? Wierdo...
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Miner Mule
20 Mules Mining The Luminae Foothold
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 01:34:00 -
[804] - Quote
Way I see it, this is CCP's way of trying to push us into Low sec to appease the appetite of the PVP'rs. No thanks. I aint gonna bother. Most of my BPO's that I use all the time are now fully researched and I don't have to play the waiting game in the NPC stations anymore. Besides most invention slots are open and I can handle that. I don't need the aggrevation of pvp. I've got a bad right arm anyway and doing PVP only aggrevates that.
I actually like just mining. Would be nice however if CCP would fix the window's problems, My windows keep jumping around in on the screen, forget petitioning it, I have two in now to report new glitches, and I figure it might be a year or more before you fix what you broke.
Last but not least, a wise old man once told me. Learn the KISS principle. It means Keep it simple Stupid. Maybe CCP would benefit from that. then again I seriously doubt it. |
tengen san
Triton-TC
11
|
Posted - 2011.12.05 06:21:00 -
[805] - Quote
Miner Mule wrote:
Last but not least, a wise old man once told me. Learn the KISS principle. It means Keep it simple Stupid. Maybe CCP would benefit from that. then again I seriously doubt it.
Everbody as he like it best!
I have subscribed to a high end content game and I won't miss out on 70% of this provided content. Switching on power and just turn up the volume makes not much use of a high end stereo equipment. |
Daedalus Arcova
Havoc Violence and Chaos
224
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 02:27:00 -
[806] - Quote
Realised today that it is incredibly difficult to tell how many colonies are on a planet, and therefore how lucrative the tax revenues from having a POCO up around it would be.
I've written a full post about this, and solutions, here
In short, the way we can search for other players' colonies at present is terrible. Put more information more readily at the disposal of players, and it will make POCO gameplay far more dynamic, driving both investment and conflict. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
29
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 02:44:00 -
[807] - Quote
Daedalus Arcova wrote:Realised today that it is incredibly difficult to tell how many colonies are on a planet, and therefore how lucrative the tax revenues from having a POCO up around it would be. ... In short, the way we can search for other players' colonies at present is terrible. Put more information more readily at the disposal of players, and it will make POCO gameplay far more dynamic, driving both investment and conflict.
1+ on that.
This reminds me of another UI PITA -- the way customs offices show up on the overview is just plain awful. It forces me to widen my overview to ridiculous widths just to be able to find the right CO. Otherwise, all I see is "Interbus Custom" or something, with the particular planet number being WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY over there on the right of the string that won't fit in any sane Overview window.
And guess what? The same is true of the POCOs. I finally spotted one today.
Why not "Customs IX [Interbus]"? Or even "Customs IX 17% [Interbus]"?
[Edit: The forum software didn't like me quoting your URL for some reason. Weird!] |
Kblackjack54
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2011.12.06 13:24:00 -
[808] - Quote
All very interesting stuff this thread, lot of useful insight into the twisted thinking of CCP regarding EVE and the tenuous link between that and the Console game DUST, seems the recent changes to PI are in the opinion of many almost totally geared towards that end, if so let us hope that CCP continue in this vein as quickly as they can, that way we as players of EVE can isolate and kill off any such ideas by the simple expedient of not engaging in PI at all, No link No DUST, they have my vote on this change.
On a lighter note, This DEV suggests that players engaged in PI should concentrate anything above P1 ops on planets with customs offices run by 'Interbus', interesting idea, but I wonder if this DEV is actually watching what is currently going on in 0.0, Alliances are ridding themselves of 'Interbus' facilities as quickly as resources allow in the hope of making a fast ISK killing from taxes, the sudden drop off in logistic transport orders for the movement of PI goods to Empire indicates that this is not going to be the case at all, the owners of the POCO will of course continue to operate if only to recoup there investment but most seem to have already pulled out of the PI game, so that idea was a bust from the start.
Did a quick sweep of surrounding systems two days back in Losec, few remaining original facilities but these had not been replaced with POCO's in the main suggesting the originals had been knocked probably just because they could, and the few that were installed were on of course Plasma planets and surprise surprise, all were damaged to some level and would either remain in that state due to lack of equipment to repair them or will shortly be destroyed, so that idea is another bust.
My original comment that this was and remains a very bad idea still stands, taking an axe to micro manage an economy has in the past never worked and the ramifications of this change are yet to be fully revealed but discussions around the Alliance indicate that they are gearing up for major cost increases in every commodity as they predict that PI will die out in 0.0/Losec with there members already moving alts into Empire to secure lines of supply.
In conclusion this ham fisted attempt to leverage console gamers into EVE via the back door is so transparent I cannot understand why others have not picked up on it yet and rather than gripe on about increased taxes and product costs fully grasp the negative effect this change is really going to have on the game. |
Mikron Alexarr
New Age Solutions The Laughing Men
60
|
Posted - 2011.12.08 15:16:00 -
[809] - Quote
Kblackjack54 wrote:All very interesting stuff this thread, lot of useful insight into the twisted thinking of CCP regarding EVE and the tenuous link between that and the Console game DUST, seems the recent changes to PI are in the opinion of many almost totally geared towards that end, if so let us hope that CCP continue in this vein as quickly as they can, that way we as players of EVE can isolate and kill off any such ideas by the simple expedient of not engaging in PI at all, No link No DUST, they have my vote on this change.
On a lighter note, This DEV suggests that players engaged in PI should concentrate anything above P1 ops on planets with customs offices run by 'Interbus', interesting idea, but I wonder if this DEV is actually watching what is currently going on in 0.0, Alliances are ridding themselves of 'Interbus' facilities as quickly as resources allow in the hope of making a fast ISK killing from taxes, the sudden drop off in logistic transport orders for the movement of PI goods to Empire indicates that this is not going to be the case at all, the owners of the POCO will of course continue to operate if only to recoup there investment but most seem to have already pulled out of the PI game, so that idea was a bust from the start.
Did a quick sweep of surrounding systems two days back in Losec, few remaining original facilities but these had not been replaced with POCO's in the main suggesting the originals had been knocked probably just because they could, and the few that were installed were on of course Plasma planets and surprise surprise, all were damaged to some level and would either remain in that state due to lack of equipment to repair them or will shortly be destroyed, so that idea is another bust.
My original comment that this was and remains a very bad idea still stands, taking an axe to micro manage an economy has in the past never worked and the ramifications of this change are yet to be fully revealed but discussions around the Alliance indicate that they are gearing up for major cost increases in every commodity as they predict that PI will die out in 0.0/Losec with there members already moving alts into Empire to secure lines of supply.
In conclusion this ham fisted attempt to leverage console gamers into EVE via the back door is so transparent I cannot understand why others have not picked up on it yet and rather than gripe on about increased taxes and product costs fully grasp the negative effect this change is really going to have on the game.
It really sucks to be right sometimes. But yeah, this is spot on. Thank you for your comments.
|
Jaric Ivainson
Level 5 Industries
0
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 22:28:00 -
[810] - Quote
Please stop calling this a "TAX"...
If this was a tax it would be based on the current selling price and not some arbitrary value assigned (dart board?) by CCP.
Yes, I'm a hi-sec PI developer, but case in point (been playing Skyrim so only now noticed how badly this was implimented, my opinion)...
Being a single-resource manufacturere, I concentrated on reactive metals...volatile pricing but always in demand and relatively easy to find the Base Metals for mining. Before Cruicble, prices were 350-420 per unit (Reactive Metals) and export fees were about 5,000 a day/planet (didn't keep track so this last number is an estimate).
Now I see Reactive Metals have dropped to the sub-300 price and now that same export charge is about 478,000 (average, as planets have been idle and fees ranged from 306,000* - 574,000*).
I recall them (CCP) referring to this as a TAX based on what appears to be an arbitrary value of the item being exported (or imported). WOW...I would love to see Reactive Metals selling for 500/unit...a price I don't recall seeing since maybe when PI first started. Realistically this percentage should vary from planet to planet (hi-sec space here), system to system depending on availability on a planet, security level and maybe even current engagements going on in the area.
This is not a TAX but a flat rate charge per unit. A tax would vary based on the current market prices where currently the above export fees would have ranged from 142,000* to 321,000*
So CCP wants to fiddle with numbers and put the player base in an uproar...fine, that's their right and choice, but call things by the right terms. This is simple an export/import charge per unit...not a tax...unless they plan on changing this in the furture (something I highly doubt will happen considering the number of client 'updates' right after a patch...very tiring)
*Exact Numbers culled from Wallet and calculator
|
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ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
31
|
Posted - 2011.12.11 00:34:00 -
[811] - Quote
Jaric Ivainson wrote:Please stop calling this a "TAX"...
If this was a tax it would be based on the current selling price and not some arbitrary value assigned (dart board?) by CCP.
Yes, I'm a hi-sec PI developer, but case in point (been playing Skyrim so only now noticed how badly this was implimented, my opinion)...
Being a single-resource manufacturere, I concentrated on reactive metals...volatile pricing but always in demand and relatively easy to find the Base Metals for mining. Before Cruicble, prices were 350-420 per unit (Reactive Metals) and export fees were about 5,000 a day/planet (didn't keep track so this last number is an estimate).
Now I see Reactive Metals have dropped to the sub-300 price and now that same export charge is about 478,000 (average, as planets have been idle and fees ranged from 306,000* - 574,000*).
I recall them (CCP) referring to this as a TAX based on what appears to be an arbitrary value of the item being exported (or imported). WOW...I would love to see Reactive Metals selling for 500/unit...a price I don't recall seeing since maybe when PI first started. Realistically this percentage should vary from planet to planet (hi-sec space here), system to system depending on availability on a planet, security level and maybe even current engagements going on in the area.
This is not a TAX but a flat rate charge per unit. A tax would vary based on the current market prices where currently the above export fees would have ranged from 142,000* to 321,000*
So CCP wants to fiddle with numbers and put the player base in an uproar...fine, that's their right and choice, but call things by the right terms. This is simple an export/import charge per unit...not a tax...unless they plan on changing this in the furture (something I highly doubt will happen considering the number of client 'updates' right after a patch...very tiring)
*Exact Numbers culled from Wallet and calculator
I always love it when language ***** get it wrong. You might want to consult a dictionary before you rant.
A tax can certainly be a flat rate. Ever hear of a "poll tax", for example? But a tax as a percentage of an arbitrarily assigned valuation? Sounds exactly like the property taxes I pay on our house.
/me shakes his head at the unbridled arrogance of language ***** who are always convinced that things they don't understand are wrong. |
ILeone
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2012.01.07 11:58:00 -
[812] - Quote
We are a small corp and have so far put up 6 POCO's in 0.4 systems the oldest being around 4 weeks old, the newest 2 weeks.
The TOTAL imcome from all POCO's over that period of time has been 75m isk for an investment of close to 1 billion isk taking into account the time to take down the Interbus co's, ammo, replacing 2 destroyed co's and getting ganked while killing the Interbus co's.
All in all, its a pretty terrible return on investment.
Two suggestions :
- Some method if judging you income before you take down a CO. - Some method of attracting players to your planet.
|
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
65
|
Posted - 2012.01.07 17:54:00 -
[813] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Ang Min wrote:Is it the case that customs offices never drop loot when destroyed? I blew up an Interbus CO on Singularity, after filling it with PI stuff, and it didn't drop anything. I think it should drop at least a portion of its contents, plus maybe some gantry construction components. This would make the hours spent shooting one a little more worthwhile. That was a specific design choice by the devs so that they wouldn't be treated as loot pinatas (to be blown up for the contents). Instead, now they'll only be blown up for business reasons (to put up your own POCO) or for PvP purposes (burning of the fields). Gotta be honest: I do not understand this decision by CCP.
Specifically, why is blowing up one structure to be treated differently than another? Taking a POS for example, pilots blow them up for both politics and profit.
Is it the case where having too much incentive (nice loot drops) to reinforce and destroy POCOs is somehow detrimental to the intended design and mechanics of DUST 514? If so, that's pretty ****** logic. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
20
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 12:21:00 -
[814] - Quote
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:To suggest that this will negatively impact the economy of eve would be like suggesting that flying a noob ship into a pirate choke point solo is a bad idea or that CCP has no real clue about how the game works outside nullsec.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Since all of these suggestions are completely absurd, that makes them approximately equal. I will now make my own profiling of EVE activities:
To suggest that making players work for their lovelies is good for the economy is like suggesting that you'd want to fly something small and fast to get through dangerous lowsec safely (like a rookie ship), or that CCP was right again as always. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
74
|
Posted - 2012.02.19 21:16:00 -
[815] - Quote
CCP Omen wrote:Jade Nexia wrote:"CCP Omen" wrote: Before I try and meet your specific questions and concerns I just want to say that we are sorry for the inconvenience you experienced with the misleading patch notes and the lack of information regarding the tariff changes. There are no arguments against better information.
We are not the GÇ£old CCPGÇ¥ that try to trick you, IGÇÖd argue the opposite, the lack of proper and accurate information was brought because we changed the POCO feature three times based on player feedback. Did we take it too far this time? Some will argue that but we feel the feature is better prepared for the long run now.
Borrowing the comparison from Abramul and adding what I think is the missing component to such a comparison, the market price.
P0: 0.1 isk/unit -> 0.5 isk/unit -> 3.81 (Noble Metals at market) P1: 0.76 isk/unit -> 50 isk/unit -> 475 (Electrolytes at market) P2: 9 isk/unit -> 900 isk/unit -> 9.715 (Mechanical parts at market) P3: 600 isk/unit -> 7000 isk/unit -> 70.011 (Robotics at market) P4: 50000 isk/unit -> 135000 isk/unit -> 1.301.000 (Broadcast node at market)
The difference between the old tax and the market price is what we reacted to. Yes the relative tax change is monstrous but the actual tax change is more like GÇ£no taxGÇ¥ - > GÇ£taxGÇ¥.
It is beyond any doubt that the amount of ISK you pay for doing PI has increased drastically, but our line is unchanged, that the previous costs had become invalid.
One of the mistakes we are absolutely guilty of is not noticing how low the taxes had become since launch of Tyrannis. This was pointed out to us at the very last moment by player feedback to the second dev blog
The Tyrannis taxes were set as a percentage of the NPC sell orders that was how planetary commodities used to enter the game pre Tyrannis. As Market prices rose, the tax base did not, effectively making it cheaper and more profitable by the day to do PI without risk. They keyword here is without risk. Players could effectively opt out of playing Internet Spaceship Game, and still make a fortune. We want players to make fortunes when there is risk, spaceships and politics involved.
I will continue to answer your questions in this thread. Regards CCP Omen
Dear Omen. You did pick as taxation base most expensive PI producs and bad time, after announce of POCO prices hyperinflate. Did you moticed that 80% products are soled under 50% peice markup of your picked goods? Like Electrolytes? I' do my PI harvesting over 7 months and average price for electolytes was around 300 not 450. Not to mention other comodities like bacteria with average price around 80? That just for my part of P1 producs because I never was interested in higher PI producs, because is just pain in ass to operate PI, setup factory, route product, route materials to factory etc. there is no easy interface for PI. I think that will be target when you announced changes in PI, to simplify UI make it less clicky. Posibility to setup more factories per one click, automatic production routing like automatic feeding with resources to factory from launchpad. Posibility to use and move goods to Storage from Launchpad not by using expeditions, reuse of command center. ETC. PI need whole big rework, but you did pick up completely unnecessary thing like POCO. Please learn to listen, right? It is entirely possible that the tax base has to be tuned after further investigation the same way as we re-balance other stuff. The foundation in market prices will however not likely change. Regards Omen How about picking more representative market prices? While some of the examples above have gone *up* in per-unit pricing creating potential 'taxation bargains,' many have gone *down* effectively pushing up the tax rate significantly specific items.
Whatever the design cost and game design reasons behind the PI taxation changes, the net result to your subscribers is generally reduced income based upon a very narrow snapshot of data that varies greatly from true and current prices.
Where does CCP stand on PI taxation moving foward? 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2012.03.18 13:56:00 -
[816] - Quote
Thread necro time.
As we continue to see PI item pricing decline these past several months, the CCP-fixed import and export tax values introduced late last year become more and more burdensome. Even with minimal-rate corp or alliance owned POCOs, this is still a fact.
What is CCP's take on this situation? 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
109
|
Posted - 2012.04.18 03:22:00 -
[817] - Quote
Waving my extra wide wand of resurrection, this thread moves up a bit.
What is CCP's take on the fixed POCO tax values that are wickedly out of synch with the increasingly depressed PI market prices? 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
140
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 22:37:00 -
[818] - Quote
Mikron Alexarr wrote:Kblackjack54 wrote:All very interesting stuff this thread, lot of useful insight into the twisted thinking of CCP regarding EVE and the tenuous link between that and the Console game DUST, seems the recent changes to PI are in the opinion of many almost totally geared towards that end, if so let us hope that CCP continue in this vein as quickly as they can, that way we as players of EVE can isolate and kill off any such ideas by the simple expedient of not engaging in PI at all, No link No DUST, they have my vote on this change.
On a lighter note, This DEV suggests that players engaged in PI should concentrate anything above P1 ops on planets with customs offices run by 'Interbus', interesting idea, but I wonder if this DEV is actually watching what is currently going on in 0.0, Alliances are ridding themselves of 'Interbus' facilities as quickly as resources allow in the hope of making a fast ISK killing from taxes, the sudden drop off in logistic transport orders for the movement of PI goods to Empire indicates that this is not going to be the case at all, the owners of the POCO will of course continue to operate if only to recoup there investment but most seem to have already pulled out of the PI game, so that idea was a bust from the start.
Did a quick sweep of surrounding systems two days back in Losec, few remaining original facilities but these had not been replaced with POCO's in the main suggesting the originals had been knocked probably just because they could, and the few that were installed were on of course Plasma planets and surprise surprise, all were damaged to some level and would either remain in that state due to lack of equipment to repair them or will shortly be destroyed, so that idea is another bust.
My original comment that this was and remains a very bad idea still stands, taking an axe to micro manage an economy has in the past never worked and the ramifications of this change are yet to be fully revealed but discussions around the Alliance indicate that they are gearing up for major cost increases in every commodity as they predict that PI will die out in 0.0/Losec with there members already moving alts into Empire to secure lines of supply.
In conclusion this ham fisted attempt to leverage console gamers into EVE via the back door is so transparent I cannot understand why others have not picked up on it yet and rather than gripe on about increased taxes and product costs fully grasp the negative effect this change is really going to have on the game. It really sucks to be right sometimes. But yeah, this is spot on. Thank you for your comments.
I'm sorry, but what exactly does all this have to do with console gamers?
Aside from that, nice post. I was wondering about the situation myself.
It appears what you are saying, (at least with respect to lowsec you visited), is that all the POCOs and COs have been vadalized or just outright destroyed for the sake of it rather than for any practical reason by people who could care less about that sort of thing?
That actually fits nicely with my assessment of a lot of Lowsec gankers, but I still hesitate to believe that it is true in all cases. There is likely Lowsec that isn't plagued by this problem. Perhaps even a lot of it.
It is also entirely possible that they are just fighting over control of what may be a potentially lucrative investment. Of course, with all that fighting it's not going to be lucrative at all, but they either have or will figure that out eventually. Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
140
|
Posted - 2012.04.22 22:39:00 -
[819] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Thread necro time.
As we continue to see PI item pricing decline these past several months, the CCP-fixed import and export tax values introduced late last year become more and more burdensome. Even with minimal-rate corp or alliance owned POCOs, this is still a fact.
What is CCP's take on this situation?
you and your necros.. I should pay more attention to time stamps. Turn WiS into wIN! ..make all the characters Nude. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
114
|
Posted - 2012.04.23 21:14:00 -
[820] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:nonsense you and your necros.. I should pay more attention to time stamps.
This thread is still relevant as CCP, afaik, has not changed any of the values upon which Planetary Interaction taxation is based. Nor has CCP changed any of the mechanics associated with the POCOs...
TBD on what CCP's crack team of game designers plan on doing regarding POCOs, the PS3 console kiddies and the means by which EVE pod pilots interact with planetary stuff. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
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Justin Cody
T.A.L.O.N. Company Psychotic Tendencies.
25
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Posted - 2012.04.25 08:53:00 -
[821] - Quote
The biggest problem with lo sec PI is that the planets don't produce enough resources to attract intense industry and they don't regenerate fast enough. CCP ought to consider tweaking the variable there. Some planets can barely sustain 2 day mining rates.
if I could sustain 1 day rates then it would be alright, but at the moment it is sad panda. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
36
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 15:33:00 -
[822] - Quote
Justin Cody wrote:The biggest problem with lo sec PI is that the planets don't produce enough resources to attract intense industry and they don't regenerate fast enough. CCP ought to consider tweaking the variable there. Some planets can barely sustain 2 day mining rates.
if I could sustain 1 day rates then it would be alright, but at the moment it is sad panda.
While I agree, the rates can be a bit low, and it adds a lot to the workload, it might also help for Sad Panda to move deeper into losec; there are some pretty productive planets in 0.1 systems.
The problem with making it easier is -- it may not help it be much more profitable. That'll increase supply, which will depress prices.
What might work out is to focus on making it less work, balanced in ways that don't really change the total production. Say, cut the production levels a bit, up the replenishment, so you don't have to move around as much.
But the problem with making it less work is -- it cuts into the competitive advantage of those who are willing to work harder. And that does sound like you, if you're looking to go to a 1-day rate!
But some people might be more willing to spend 15 minutes per planet every 3 days, and some might be more willing to spend 5 minutes per planet every day. I think you're in the latter subgroup. I used to be as well, but now I find myself in different groups on different days, and either way, I don't have the time to really optimize my personal production as I try to coordinate operations on a larger scale.
Overall, I agree it is frustrating to carefully optimize, only to have to throw away that work a day later. And when things are frustrating, it's probably a good sign that a change is in order. |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
36
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Posted - 2012.04.25 15:36:00 -
[823] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Mars Theran wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:nonsense you and your necros.. I should pay more attention to time stamps. This thread is still relevant as CCP, afaik, has not changed any of the values upon which Planetary Interaction taxation is based. Nor has CCP changed any of the mechanics associated with the POCOs... TBD on what CCP's crack team of game designers plan on doing regarding POCOs, the PS3 console kiddies and the means by which EVE pod pilots interact with planetary stuff.
I have the suspicion that the thread is no longer relevant, because CCP no longer pays attention to it. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
114
|
Posted - 2012.04.25 17:22:00 -
[824] - Quote
ZaBob wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Mars Theran wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:nonsense you and your necros.. I should pay more attention to time stamps. This thread is still relevant as CCP, afaik, has not changed any of the values upon which Planetary Interaction taxation is based. Nor has CCP changed any of the mechanics associated with the POCOs... TBD on what CCP's crack team of game designers plan on doing regarding POCOs, the PS3 console kiddies and the means by which EVE pod pilots interact with planetary stuff. I have the suspicion that the thread is no longer relevant, because CCP no longer pays attention to it. Fair point, but I am a stubborn S.O.B. and unfortunately lack CCP's ability to selectively forget about projects and in-game features put into play and then dropped for something that sparkles more. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
ZaBob
Twilight Labs Unsung Voices
38
|
Posted - 2012.04.26 07:42:00 -
[825] - Quote
Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:ZaBob wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:Mars Theran wrote:Hakaru Ishiwara wrote:nonsense you and your necros.. I should pay more attention to time stamps. This thread is still relevant as CCP, afaik, has not changed any of the values upon which Planetary Interaction taxation is based. Nor has CCP changed any of the mechanics associated with the POCOs... TBD on what CCP's crack team of game designers plan on doing regarding POCOs, the PS3 console kiddies and the means by which EVE pod pilots interact with planetary stuff. I have the suspicion that the thread is no longer relevant, because CCP no longer pays attention to it. Fair point, but I am a stubborn S.O.B. and unfortunately lack CCP's ability to selectively forget about projects and in-game features put into play and then dropped for something that sparkles more.
Let's hear it for stubborn S.O.B.'s!
We would have neither the internet nor spaceships without them! |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
124
|
Posted - 2012.05.18 17:11:00 -
[826] - Quote
Inquiring [again] about the fixed value taxation adjustments that we discussed back in October and November 2011 [when CCP decided to suck more ISK out of player wallets]. 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284 Characters 284286 |
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