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Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
18
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Been out of game for a while and recently returned, so had a load of changes to catch up on. Last night I couldn't at first work out why my Garde II's couldn't actually hit a single blasted thing, so I had to do a bit of research and discovered the Omnidirectional Tracking Link changes.
Cripes! After nine years of Eve on and off I've seen plenty of stuff nerfed, but never have I seen anything nerfed to such complete and utter pointlessness before.
Pre sentry nerf, Garde II's on a non-bonused ship with my (reasonable) drone skills had an optimal of 30k, which with 2 T2 Omnis went up to 45k. Considering that you've devoted two entire mid slots to it that doesn't seem remotely OP to me, especially when you consider that the sentries are static (and so by definition are really only useful for sniping), and that they're a BS class weapon and many NPC battleships don't even approach to within 45k anyway.
Post sentry nerf, same dual omni setup, my Garde II's now have an optimal of 34k unscripted, or 38.9k double range scripted. Their optimal was already pretty crap, 38.9k is sufficiently crap as to verge on pointlessness.
That's wtf number one.
Wtf number two is what the hell have they done to Federation Navy Omnis!
T2 Omnis used to give a 25% buff, Fed Navy's used to give 30%, that's an increase of 20% over the T2's, not too shabby, a faction module that's actually worth a damn. But not any more. Now the T2's give a 7.5% optimal buff, and the Fed Navy's give only 8%. Are you *&@$ing kidding me? A 0.5% bonus! For real? That's totally pointless! What the Jesus munching heckfire are you guys smoking over there!
it used to be the case that Fed Navy Omni's used to add a significant amount of optimal, for unbonused ships they were really what made using Gardes even viable in the first place. Now, two of them, double range scripted, give me a grand total of... wait for it.
600m
Yes, you read it right, 600m extra optimal!
Well for 60m isk that's just an utter joke and there's obviously no point fitting them over T2 at all anymore. It's also hard to see how Gardes could ever be even remotely viable on shield tanking ships anymore.
From what I can gather the sentries were nerfed because apparently when you have 200 Archons use them against an enemy they tend to do rather a lot of damage. Well guess what. If you have 200 of anything, all shooting at one other thing, then no matter what the shooting thing is, the thing being shot at isn't going to like it! I believe it was for similar reasons that Drakes and HML's were nerfed.
The problem with this is that if every ship/weapon in Eve is going to be balanced on the basis of how good it is when 200 of them are used in coordinated PvP to shoot at one other thing, then pretty soon there will be nothing left that's any good for PvE either.
I've heard rumours that the Gila is going to be nerfed to hell as well and lose a tonne of bandwidth.
Bloody hell :-(
Does anyone else thing this is too much? Is there some new mechanism to offset these changes that I've missed? If not then I think Fed Navy Omni's should be returned to 20% better than T2 just to make them worth fitting at all. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
4852
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
tl; dr version:
CCP nerfed things OP was fond of.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
5308
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/zJCxMMz.jpg Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?" |
Michael Ruckert
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
134
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Posting in stealth "Back to the Future" thread. "No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
18
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:tl; dr version: CCP nerfed things OP was fond of.
Actually OP hopes for discussion and opinions (clue: this is a forum). If you try really hard you might just manage to formulate one, and then you'd have something worth posting. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
12776
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mai Sentries....
Neutrino Sunset wrote: Actually OP hopes for discussion and opinions (clue: this is a forum). If you try really hard you might just manage to formulate one, and then you'd have something worth posting.
I see OP also hopes to talk about himself in the third person as well.... Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
4853
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Posted - 2014.04.24 22:11:00 -
[7] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:Doc Fury wrote:tl; dr version: CCP nerfed things OP was fond of.
Actually OP hopes for discussion and opinions (clue: this is a forum). If you try really hard you might just manage to formulate one, and then you'd have something worth posting.
There is a forum area for discussing game features and/or changes. As it happens, it's not GD.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1270
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 23:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
8/7.5 = 6.7% OP. That's about the same as T2 to Faction in nearly every mod in the game. 20% increase from T2 to Faction is crazy huge. Welcome to the same as every other weapon system in the game now. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
1354
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 00:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Posting in a stealth "Grrr Goons" thread. . -á<- Argue this, not this ->-á( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦) |
Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
104
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Posted - 2014.04.25 00:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Posting in a stealth "Grrr Goons" thread. Isn't it GRR N3/PL with their slowcat spam? |
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
1354
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Posted - 2014.04.25 01:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Yang Aurilen wrote:Scipio Artelius wrote:Posting in a stealth "Grrr Goons" thread. Isn't it GRR N3/PL with their slowcat spam?
Grr Goons for all the discussion about a nerf that the OP's seach foo was not strong enough to look for, but you can also go Grr N3/PL too, it's just not as trendy. . -á<- Argue this, not this ->-á( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦) |
Lothros Andastar
The Minutemen Li3 Federation
50
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Posted - 2014.04.25 01:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
And T2 Sentries will lose 7% damage come summer. :( |
Belt Scout
Forum alts make you mad
320
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 01:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Dammit. Who ruined the game now?
Nerf nulsec. It's their fault. EVE's only legitimate ISK halving service. I have 500Billion to not give away. It's easy for you to double my money. Just send me some isk, has to be 100Mil or higher, and I will send you back half. I can't lose. One guaranteed winner every round. Do it now. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9434
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Posted - 2014.04.25 01:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
I read Grades. Finalsareoverfinalsareoverfinalsareover Perhaps if I keep telling myself I'll finally believe it. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Beofryn Sedorak
13
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Posted - 2014.04.25 01:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
[Melodrama]OH NO! WHATEVER SHALL YOU DO OP?!?! HOW WILL YOU EVER SURVIVE! Dx ALL IS LOST! WOE IS ME!!!!!![/melodrama]
Things in the game changed. This is inevitable. The ones that are able to adapt instead of whining about it tend to prosper more. |
Grunanca
Doughboys Shadow Cartel
221
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Posted - 2014.04.25 05:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
OP must have forgot about that module called Stasis Webifier, which will magically make his gardes hit again! |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
221
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 06:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
OP, you have a very good memory. .
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Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
2272
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Posted - 2014.04.25 07:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
It is not so much the 'nerf' to sentry drones as that fact that CCP have messed around with drones in general so much over the last 18 months that one despairs of them ever getting it 'right' or even just leaving the danged things alone for a while.
CCP should learn how to think twice and act once. This is not a signature. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
627
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 07:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
The recent nerf was to omnis.
The actual drone changes are still coming in the summer patches. |
voetius
BITB Support Services
215
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 07:55:00 -
[20] - Quote
In a Typhoon or TFI without omnis but with a drone link for a bit of extra range, my Garde IIs start hitting for more or less full damage around 40km. Warden II and Curator II can one or two-shot frigates at 70km+ but I do use 2 painters. |
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Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
187
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Posted - 2014.04.25 09:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Lothros Andastar wrote:And T2 Sentries will lose 7% damage come summer. :(
No they won't.
Yes, there will be a net 7% loss of damage, but you also get a bonus 10% damage from the drone faction skills.
Moar damage!
The drone changes so far have been interesting - yes for general ships the drones are now more meh... but for ships which are specialised in drones, the drones are actually much better than before.
Sure, it was weird going from the Navy Domi back to the regular Domi but... woah the beauty of Domi now!
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Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
18
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Posted - 2014.04.25 09:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Grunanca wrote:OP must have forgot about that module called Stasis Webifier, which will magically make his gardes hit again! Yes, because sentries are a short range weapon system for use under 10k and Stasis Webifiers add optimal range to all weapon system don't they, genius.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:8/7.5 = 6.7% OP. That's about the same as T2 to Faction in nearly every mod in the game. 20% increase from T2 to Faction is crazy huge. Welcome to the same as every other weapon system in the game now. The old bonus on omni's was good. However you are mistaken in that it was not excessive compared to the bonus increases offered by other comparable faction/deadspace gear. For example:
Faction bonus over T2
Armour Hardener (A type), 12%. MWD, 50% cap bonus. Shield Hardeners, 25% bonus over T2 Scan Probe Launcher, 100% bonus over T2 All damage modules, 25% bonus over T2
As you can see, I could go through EFT and find examples in almost every other category of gear where the bonus for elite gear easily exceeds 10%, (and none of this is even the best gear).
One glaring exception to this though is tracking computers and enhancers which have practically no bonus at all. So in that respect the change to Omni's might seem to be consistent. However, if you look a bit deeper you'll see that there are significant differences between turrets and drones that result in the downgrading of omni's having an excessively detrimental effect.
Here are some other mechanism turret users can use to enhance their range.
T2 long range ammo. Lowslot tracking enhancers. Rigs. Implants. Boosters.
Here are the other mechanisms drones users have to enhance their range.
Nothing.
Omni's were the only thing that drones users had for making Gardes usable for their only viable role (sniping). There's no point whatsoever using Gardes at close range since heavy drones do more dps and at close range the time to take for them to reach the target isn't an issue, especially not with a drone navigation computer or two, and this will be even less of an issue with the summer expansion where heavy drones will be made to travel faster.
Making the Omnis use cap also rules out using sentries in wspace where medium sized ships will commonly be capped out by the sleepers, so this change also destroys existing gameplay, and in general the obsession with making modules and weapons pointless on all ships apart from those which have specific bonuses to them (specifically drones and ewar) is clearly removing diversity and the potential for creativity in ship design.
Imo nerf was heavy handed and should be revised somewhat to prevent Gardes from being pointless on all except a couple of specific ships. |
Koz Katral
Sanctuary of Shadows
6
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 09:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sentries were too strong, and now they are close to being balanced (but probably still too strong, specifically in pvp, in pve they are about right). Deal with it. |
Selene Voss
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2014.04.25 10:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Quote:Here are some other mechanism turret users can use to enhance their range.
T2 long range ammo. Lowslot tracking enhancers. Rigs. Implants. Boosters.
Here are the other mechanisms drones users have to enhance their range.
* There are other drones besides grades use one of them to alter your range, trading off damage - just like tech 2 long range ammo.
* Coming in next summer expansion as part of drones rebalance
* Drone Scope Chip - tech 1 gives 15% optimal, tech 2 gives 20% optimal
* Implants & Boosters - I'll give you that one but since they are looking at drone perhaps these are on the drawing board.
|
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
565
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 11:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote: Faction bonus over T2
Armour Hardener (A type), 12%. MWD, 50% cap bonus. Shield Hardeners, 25% bonus over T2 Scan Probe Launcher, 100% bonus over T2 All damage modules, 25% bonus over T2
T2 and faction armor hardeners do the same, faction just uses 20 less CPU each. Faction invulns are 400mil a piece and worse compared to pith c-types. Scan Probe Launchers are not relevant. Sisters are exclusively used by bads or people with astro IV and below.
All damage module are around 5% better compared to T2, that's it.
Stop puling numbers out of your butt. Sentries finally got *fixed*, that's all.
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
Moving pictures |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5203
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 11:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
Oh quit whining. The balance on sentry drones was way out of whack.
Ever since we got drone damage mods, sentries have been easy-mode for a lot of things, and Gardes are the sentry I use least.
(Hint, the advantage is in the long range sentries)
For what it's worth though, Gardes are getting a big boost to falloff in the coming expansion to make them more useable again.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Adoris Nolen
Sama Guild
69
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 12:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Cyniac wrote:Lothros Andastar wrote:And T2 Sentries will lose 7% damage come summer. :( Yes, there will be a net 7% loss of damage, but you also get a bonus 10% damage from the drone faction skills.
I could have sworn they were balancing them based on having 7% less with max skills. I.e. if your not maxed now, the nerf is gonna be way more than 7%. |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
436
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 12:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:Grunanca wrote:OP must have forgot about that module called Stasis Webifier, which will magically make his gardes hit again! Yes, because sentries are a short range weapon system for use under 10k and Stasis Webifiers add optimal range to all weapon system don't they, genius. Nevyn Auscent wrote:8/7.5 = 6.7% OP. That's about the same as T2 to Faction in nearly every mod in the game. 20% increase from T2 to Faction is crazy huge. Welcome to the same as every other weapon system in the game now. The old bonus on omni's was good. However you are mistaken in that it was not excessive compared to the bonus increases offered by other comparable faction/deadspace gear. For example: Faction bonus over T2
Armour Hardener (A type), 12%. MWD, 50% cap bonus. Shield Hardeners, 25% bonus over T2 Scan Probe Launcher, 100% bonus over T2 All damage modules, 25% bonus over T2 As you can see, I could go through EFT and find examples in almost every other category of gear where the bonus for elite gear easily exceeds 10%, (and none of this is even the best gear). One glaring exception to this though is tracking computers and enhancers which have practically no bonus at all. So in that respect the change to Omni's might seem to be consistent. However, if you look a bit deeper you'll see that there are significant differences between turrets and drones that result in the downgrading of omni's having an excessively detrimental effect. Here are some other mechanism turret users can use to enhance their range. T2 long range ammo. Lowslot tracking enhancers. Rigs. Implants. Boosters. Here are the other mechanisms drones users have to enhance their range. Nothing. Omni's were the only thing that drones users had for making Gardes usable for their only viable role (sniping). There's no point whatsoever using Gardes at close range since heavy drones do more dps and at close range the time to take for them to reach the target isn't an issue, especially not with a drone navigation computer or two, and this will be even less of an issue with the summer expansion where heavy drones will be made to travel faster. Making the Omnis use cap also rules out using sentries in wspace where medium sized ships will commonly be capped out by the sleepers, so this change also destroys existing gameplay, and in general the obsession with making modules and weapons pointless on all ships apart from those which have specific bonuses to them (specifically drones and ewar) is clearly removing diversity and the potential for creativity in ship design. Imo nerf was heavy handed and should be revised somewhat to prevent Gardes from being pointless on all except a couple of specific ships.
Interesting take on it but let's look at one other point.
Racial drone skills do not affect sentry performance. Sentry drone skill alone affects this.
As such, deploying different models of sentries is no different than changing ammo - if you want range, swap drones. If you want hitting power, swap drones.
Gardes are the heavy hitter version so range is more limited than other models but you don't need different skills to get more range - just swap what you use.
As for the rest - it sounds like room for other drone enhancements and I'd be behind that - implants, etc.
One last bit:
Drones were once, very long ago, the primary purview and domain of Gallente. Now they are ubiquitous for virtually all larger class hulls. Each other weapon system is far more specialized to a given group - missiles to whom? Projectiles? How about Lasers? ...
So drones have fewer options but are deployed on ships to a far broader degree than any other systems. It balances out more than the other components you list and are calculated to balance differently.
Just my take on it. |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
19
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 12:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
Selene Voss wrote:* Drone Scope Chip - tech 1 gives 15% optimal, tech 2 gives 20% optimal Thanks for the tip. What is this, a lowslot module or a rig?
Lloyd Roses wrote:All damage module are around 5% better compared to T2, that's it.
Stop puling numbers out of your butt.
Heat Sink II. DamageMod +10% Ammatar Navy Heat Sink. DamageMod +12.5%
10 - 12.5 = 2.5 increase 2.5 / 10 * 100 = 25%
Therefore faction damage mods are 25% better than T2 so you might want to consider learning some basic maths before you accuse others of pulling numbers out of their butts.
Omnidirection Tracking Link II. Optimal +7.5% Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link. Optimal +8%
That's a 6.6% improvement and with those stats a range scripted Fed Navy Omni currently adds 300m to the optimal range of a Garde II. Which imo is plain ridiculous. 300m would barely make any difference to the optimal of a small autocannon let alone a long range battleship weapon.
I'm not asking for sentries to be buffed at all. All I want is for Federation Navy Omni's to actually do something worthwhile again.
@Mocam You make some reasonable points that I'd like to come back on.
Regarding the point about switching drones I'd just like to point out that very few boats have the drone storage capacity to be able to carry multiple sets of sentries. And on the issue of being able to use all T2 Sentries without needing to train the racial skill, my read of the Drone Assist blog suggests that is one of the things that will be changing in the summer expansion. The blog isn't completely clear on this point, but it is categorical in that the racial skill will now be where the T2 sentries get a lot of their current damage from. |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
436
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 13:03:00 -
[30] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:[quote=Selene Voss] @Mocam You make some reasonable points that I'd like to come back on.
Regarding the point about switching drones I'd just like to point out that very few boats have the drone storage capacity to be able to carry multiple sets of sentries. And on the issue of being able to use all T2 Sentries without needing to train the racial skill, my read of the Drone Assist blog suggests that is one of the things that will be changing in the summer expansion. The blog isn't completely clear on this point, but it is categorical in that the racial skill will now be where the T2 sentries get a lot of their current damage from.
I always snicker at "next expansion..." and other such 'future' based expectations. Oft times this it doesn't seem to synch well. You know: Expectations vs deliverables? It tends to be a bit like a manual transmission with the clutch giving out... *snicker*
"Wait and see" is best but avoid planning on what one thinks they'll get. :-) |
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