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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9442
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Posted - 2014.04.25 13:18:00 -
[31] - Quote
Mocam wrote:Neutrino Sunset wrote:[quote=Selene Voss] @Mocam You make some reasonable points that I'd like to come back on.
Regarding the point about switching drones I'd just like to point out that very few boats have the drone storage capacity to be able to carry multiple sets of sentries. And on the issue of being able to use all T2 Sentries without needing to train the racial skill, my read of the Drone Assist blog suggests that is one of the things that will be changing in the summer expansion. The blog isn't completely clear on this point, but it is categorical in that the racial skill will now be where the T2 sentries get a lot of their current damage from. I always snicker at "next expansion..." and other such 'future' based expectations. Oft times this it doesn't seem to synch well. You know: Expectations vs deliverables? It tends to be a bit like a manual transmission with the clutch giving out... *snicker* "Wait and see" is best but avoid planning on what one thinks they'll get. :-) You seem to be confusing Fanfest presentations with dev blogs. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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E-2C Hawkeye
State War Academy Caldari State
598
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Posted - 2014.04.25 13:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:Doc Fury wrote:tl; dr version: CCP nerfed things OP was fond of.
Actually OP hopes for discussion and opinions (clue: this is a forum). If you try really hard you might just manage to formulate one, and then you'd have something worth posting. Ouch...it seems this one has peered into your soul Doc and seen the nasty. I guess people are getting tired of the asshattery of the one liners and are loosing patience.
tldr: The cuteness is wearing off for the non troll forum users. |
bareface
Omni Management System
4
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Posted - 2014.04.25 13:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:Selene Voss wrote:* Drone Scope Chip - tech 1 gives 15% optimal, tech 2 gives 20% optimal Thanks for the tip. What is this, a lowslot module or a rig? Lloyd Roses wrote:All damage module are around 5% better compared to T2, that's it.
Stop puling numbers out of your butt.
Heat Sink II. DamageMod +10% Ammatar Navy Heat Sink. DamageMod +12.5% 10 - 12.5 = 2.5 increase 2.5 / 10 * 100 = 25% Therefore faction damage mods are 25% better than T2 so you might want to consider learning some basic maths before you accuse others of pulling numbers out of their butts.
Actually, it's not even close to 25%
T2: DamageMod +10%, Duration -10.5% Faction: DamageMod +12.5%, Duration -10.5%
What difference does this actually make?
Let's so that you do 1000 damage every 10 seconds with no Heat Sink (100 dps),
With a T2 heatsink, that goes to 1100 damage every 8.95 seconds (122.9 dps) With a Faction heatsink, that goes to 1125 Damage every 8.95 seconds (125.7 dps)
The difference in overall damage between the two is a little over 2% The difference between the boosted dps amount is approximately 12%
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Rhes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
829
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Posted - 2014.04.25 14:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:loosing patience. :cripes:
EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise |
Chuck Sanussi
EntroPrelatial Vanguard EntroPraetorian Aegis
0
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Posted - 2014.04.25 14:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
Something, something, crying, my gardes.
Then use T2. Game has changed. Play single player games if you do not like that.
Also, there are more drones than just Gardes, just FYI, you seem to have missed that. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
627
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Posted - 2014.04.25 15:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
Adoris Nolen wrote:Cyniac wrote:Lothros Andastar wrote:And T2 Sentries will lose 7% damage come summer. :( Yes, there will be a net 7% loss of damage, but you also get a bonus 10% damage from the drone faction skills. I could have sworn they were balancing them based on having 7% less with max skills. I.e. if your not maxed now, the nerf is gonna be way more than 7%.
TBH I have not done the figures but the blog post was suggesting someone with max drone skills as well as V in racial drones will end up pretty close to the same T2 damage they now have.
The same person will do significantly more damage with T1 and faction drones then they currently manage. |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
21
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Posted - 2014.04.25 15:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
bareface wrote:Actually, it's not even close to 25% I made it perfectly clear that I was talking about how much greater the faction bonus was than the T2 bonus, _not_ how much greater the final dps, range, or whatever result is.
Your final outcome calculations are correct, but do absolutely nothing to disprove my actual point, which is that currently Federation Navy omni's do squat. If anything a final outcome calculation on T2 vs Fed Navy omnis would only serve to reinforce my point.
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bareface
Omni Management System
4
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Posted - 2014.04.25 15:45:00 -
[38] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:bareface wrote:Actually, it's not even close to 25% I made it perfectly clear that I was talking about how much greater the faction bonus was than the T2 bonus, _not_ how much greater the final dps, range, or whatever result is. Your final outcome calculations are correct, but do absolutely nothing to disprove my actual point, which is that currently Federation Navy omni's do squat. If anything a final outcome calculation on T2 vs Fed Navy omnis would only serve to reinforce my point.
You completely left off the duration bonus. Which is identical. You have to factor in both to find out how much greater the bonus is. When you do this, it's 12%, not 25%. I know it's maybe not the crux of your argument. However, when you chide someone for the lack of "maths" and leave out half of the equation yourself, you should be called out. |
Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
23
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Posted - 2014.04.25 18:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
Actually you are quite right of course, I should have factored the duration bonus into calculating the difference between T2 and faction heatsinks.
I would however like to point out that it was actually he who first accused me of pulling numbers out of my arse when his own were utter tosh, as you have ably demonstrated by correcting us both. |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
188
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Posted - 2014.04.25 18:19:00 -
[40] - Quote
Adoris Nolen wrote:I could have sworn they were balancing them based on having 7% less with max skills. I.e. if your not maxed now, the nerf is gonna be way more than 7%.
Hmm... lets check the numbers because I was talking from memory and I think I was wrong:
Today Garde IIs:
Base damage: 50 thermal Damage multiplier: 1.96
So base damage output: 98 thermal (50*1.96)
Tomorrow's Garde IIs - (based on the spreadsheet released in the blog)
Base damage: 64 thermal Damage multiplier: 1.7 Benefit from up to 10% bonus from gallente drone specialisation V.
So base damage output: 119.68 thermal (64*1.7*1.1)
Now I might have my formulas wrong - but it looks to me as if the Garde IIs are actually getting a potential 20% damage BOOST in the summer (but it's more dependent on skills than today). Even without the drone specs you will still be doing 108.8 base damage which is an improvement over what we have today.
Good fun all round or did I completely miss something?
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Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
19317
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Posted - 2014.04.25 18:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:tl; dr version:
CCP nerfed things OP was fond of.
awwwww Frostys Virpio > CCP: Continously Crying Playerbase
I like to gank it, gank it!
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9454
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Posted - 2014.04.26 07:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
Cyniac wrote:Adoris Nolen wrote:I could have sworn they were balancing them based on having 7% less with max skills. I.e. if your not maxed now, the nerf is gonna be way more than 7%. Hmm... lets check the numbers because I was talking from memory and I think I was wrong: Today Garde IIs: Base damage: 50 thermal Damage multiplier: 1.96 So base damage output: 98 thermal (50*1.96) Tomorrow's Garde IIs - ( based on the spreadsheet released in the blog) Base damage: 64 thermal Damage multiplier: 1.7 Benefit from up to 10% bonus from gallente drone specialisation V. So base damage output: 119.68 thermal (64*1.7*1.1) Now I might have my formulas wrong - but it looks to me as if the Garde IIs are actually getting a potential 20% damage BOOST in the summer (but it's more dependent on skills than today). Even without the drone specs you will still be doing 108.8 base damage which is an improvement over what we have today. Good fun all round or did I completely miss something? You missed something. Namely your assumption that the -7% figure is before skills is wrong.
CCP Fozzie wrote:These numbers assume max skills:
Curator I - +15% tracking, -50% falloff, +18.15% damage Warden I - +40% falloff, +12% damage Garde I - +50% falloff, +2% damage Bouncer I - +60% tracking, -12.5% optimal, +14.3% falloff, +2.86% damage
Curator II - +15% tracking, -50% falloff, +8.31% damage Warden II - +40% falloff, +2.67% damage Garde II - +50% falloff, -6.5% damage Bouncer II - +60% tracking, -12.5% optimal, +14.3% falloff, -5.71% damage https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4423945#post4423945 "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
189
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Posted - 2014.04.26 20:50:00 -
[43] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:You missed something. Namely your assumption that the -7% figure is before skills is wrong. CCP Fozzie wrote:These numbers assume max skills:
Curator I - +15% tracking, -50% falloff, +18.15% damage Warden I - +40% falloff, +12% damage Garde I - +50% falloff, +2% damage Bouncer I - +60% tracking, -12.5% optimal, +14.3% falloff, +2.86% damage
Curator II - +15% tracking, -50% falloff, +8.31% damage Warden II - +40% falloff, +2.67% damage Garde II - +50% falloff, -6.5% damage Bouncer II - +60% tracking, -12.5% optimal, +14.3% falloff, -5.71% damage https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4423945#post4423945
I saw that actually but the numbers in the spreadsheets which they released don't add up to the numbers that they quote.
Naturally since this is EVE - I put my trust in the spreadsheet (not saything they won't change it later though). |
Adoris Nolen
Sama Guild
70
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Posted - 2014.04.27 07:38:00 -
[44] - Quote
Actually I see Now 50 * 2{drone int} * 1.25 {sentry drone} * 1.96 multi = 245. Nerfed 64 * 1.5 * 1.25 * 1.7 * 1.1 racial skill = 224
It's actually a 8.4% Nerf. |
Adoris Nolen
Sama Guild
70
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Posted - 2014.04.27 07:49:00 -
[45] - Quote
At racial skill 1: 13% Nerf. Level 4 = 8.2% Nerf. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2806
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Posted - 2014.04.27 08:13:00 -
[46] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:Been out of game for a while and recently returned, so had a load of changes to catch up on. Last night I couldn't at first work out why my Garde II's couldn't actually hit a single blasted thing, so I had to do a bit of research and discovered the Omnidirectional Tracking Link changes.
Cripes! After nine years of Eve on and off I've seen plenty of stuff nerfed, but never have I seen anything nerfed to such complete and utter pointlessness before.
Pre sentry nerf, Garde II's on a non-bonused ship with my (reasonable) drone skills had an optimal of 30k, which with 2 T2 Omnis went up to 45k. Considering that you've devoted two entire mid slots to it that doesn't seem remotely OP to me, especially when you consider that the sentries are static (and so by definition are really only useful for sniping), and that they're a BS class weapon and many NPC battleships don't even approach to within 45k anyway.
Post sentry nerf, same dual omni setup, my Garde II's now have an optimal of 34k unscripted, or 38.9k double range scripted. Their optimal was already pretty crap, 38.9k is sufficiently crap as to verge on pointlessness.
That's wtf number one.
Wtf number two is what the hell have they done to Federation Navy Omnis!
T2 Omnis used to give a 25% buff, Fed Navy's used to give 30%, that's an increase of 20% over the T2's, not too shabby, a faction module that's actually worth a damn. But not any more. Now the T2's give a 7.5% optimal buff, and the Fed Navy's give only 8%. Are you *&@$ing kidding me? A 0.5% bonus! For real? That's totally pointless! What the Jesus munching heckfire are you guys smoking over there!
it used to be the case that Fed Navy Omni's used to add a significant amount of optimal, for unbonused ships they were really what made using Gardes even viable in the first place. Now, two of them, double range scripted, give me a grand total of... wait for it.
600m
Yes, you read it right, 600m extra optimal!
Well for 60m isk that's just an utter joke and there's obviously no point fitting them over T2 at all anymore. It's also hard to see how Gardes could ever be even remotely viable on shield tanking ships anymore.
From what I can gather the sentries were nerfed because apparently when you have 200 Archons use them against an enemy they tend to do rather a lot of damage. Well guess what. If you have 200 of anything, all shooting at one other thing, then no matter what the shooting thing is, the thing being shot at isn't going to like it! I believe it was for similar reasons that Drakes and HML's were nerfed.
The problem with this is that if every ship/weapon in Eve is going to be balanced on the basis of how good it is when 200 of them are used in coordinated PvP to shoot at one other thing, then pretty soon there will be nothing left that's any good for PvE either.
I've heard rumours that the Gila is going to be nerfed to hell as well and lose a tonne of bandwidth.
Bloody hell :-(
Does anyone else thing this is too much? Is there some new mechanism to offset these changes that I've missed? If not then I think Fed Navy Omni's should be returned to 20% better than T2 just to make them worth fitting at all.
Ah, and another one of the silent majority speaks up. You know, the ones that actually pay the bills.
You are going to just love the other nerfs to the Gardes, though fozzie, who can do no wrong, has given back the Garde's a 6 km falloff buff.
Don't worry. you are far from alone in your anger after an extremely detailed and logical analysis. Unfortunately, your opinions will be ignored.
You have 2 options:
1. Deal with this disaster. 2. Quit the game.
Complaining on the forums will lead you nowhere with the dev's, and only attract propaganda people from the cartels and CCP. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15250
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Posted - 2014.04.27 08:16:00 -
[47] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: You have 2 options:
1. Deal with this disaster. 2. Quit the game.
Complaining on the forums will lead you nowhere with the dev's, and only attract propaganda people from the cartels and CCP.
Well we can all agree with this, at least.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5433
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Posted - 2014.04.27 08:16:00 -
[48] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: Ah, and another one of the silent majority speaks up.
Gotta love contradictions in terms.
The moment a part of the "silent majority" begins talking on this forum, by definition they immediately join the ranks of a very small segment of the community.
Nevermind that your premise is false from the beginning, I just wanted to point out how contradictory that sentence was. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21286
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Posted - 2014.04.27 08:18:00 -
[49] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Don't worry. you are far from alone in your anger after an extremely detailed and logical analysis. Unfortunately, your opinions will be ignored.
You have 2 options:
1. Deal with this disaster. 2. Quit the game. How is it a disaster that the game is being balanced, and why on earth should it be a source of anger that they are being adjusted to fit in with the game so as to allow a good range of selection of equipment?
Also, why is it that the GÇ£detailed and logical analysisGÇ¥ skips over the really important part: the reasons why the change is needed? That seems like a pretty large omission that puts both the detail and the logic into questionGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
630
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Posted - 2014.04.27 11:12:00 -
[50] - Quote
The summer patch is going to substantially buff the DPS of T1 and faction sentry users. |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5450
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Posted - 2014.04.27 11:26:00 -
[51] - Quote
Hasikan Miallok wrote:The summer patch is going to substantially buff the DPS of T1 and faction sentry users.
How dare you bring facts and reason into this. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
191
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Posted - 2014.05.07 16:33:00 -
[52] - Quote
Adoris Nolen wrote:Actually I see Now 50 * 2{drone int} * 1.25 {sentry drone} * 1.96 multi = 245. Nerfed 64 * 1.5 * 1.25 * 1.7 * 1.1 racial skill = 224
It's actually a 8.4% Nerf.
Edit: unless the actual multiplier is 1.7354 then it's only 6.5% Nerf.
Ah I see now - the nerf only becomes apparent when you look not only at the drone stats but also at all of the skill changes as well. When you put all this together it does indeed look like a 6.5% Nerf or so.
It would be interesting if CCP brought Drones in line with other weapons by giving them more support skills and therefore requiring a bit more specialisation to get the most out of them. For instance a skill which gave say a 4%-5% bonus to tracking speed of drones would be quite useful without making drones OP in the rebalance, and it will allow specialised pilots to retain a similar level of actual applied damage (which after all is what matters).
Of course... then they go ahead and mess everything up with the Rattler + Gecko combination which is likely to be simply brutal. Beware the reptiles! |
Rikanin
30plus Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
96
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Posted - 2014.05.07 16:47:00 -
[53] - Quote
Neutrino Sunset wrote:Doc Fury wrote:tl; dr version: CCP nerfed things OP was fond of.
Actually OP hopes for discussion and opinions (clue: this is a forum). If you try really hard you might just manage to formulate one, and then you'd have something worth posting.
Don't count on it.
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1301
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Posted - 2014.05.07 16:59:00 -
[54] - Quote
Grunanca wrote:OP must have forgot about that module called Stasis Webifier, which will magically make his gardes hit again!
because webs have 35km+ range
or do they.
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Victor Dathar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
319
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Posted - 2014.05.07 18:25:00 -
[55] - Quote
Kitty Bear wrote:Grunanca wrote:OP must have forgot about that module called Stasis Webifier, which will magically make his gardes hit again! because webs have 35km+ range or do they.
Clearly the answer is to have a Rapier alt follow you in the web all the things! ^^^ lol that post is so bad you should get back 2 GBS m8 o7
@grr_goons : Wisdom, Insight, GBS Posts |
Gregor Parud
484
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Posted - 2014.05.07 18:27:00 -
[56] - Quote
OP uses the hyperbole female over exaggerated whining routine. Something was balanced down a bit because it got a bit silly so IT'S NOW COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY USELESS. |
Dave Stark
5357
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Posted - 2014.05.07 18:29:00 -
[57] - Quote
Victor Dathar wrote:Kitty Bear wrote:Grunanca wrote:OP must have forgot about that module called Stasis Webifier, which will magically make his gardes hit again! because webs have 35km+ range or do they. Clearly the answer is to have a Rapier alt follow you in the web all the things!
dem 80km webs. |
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