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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
17162
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Posted - 2014.04.27 07:36:00 -
[61] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:cheese... cheese is better than soup. Broccoli and Stilton soup, best of both worlds. Ohhh yes.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21286
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 07:41:00 -
[62] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:You know CCP, when more and more of the player base starts posting in threads like this, and do my job of sounding the alarm bell, you might want to consider stop listening to the Malcanis', Mike's, and mynnna's of the gaming community, and start listening to, I dunno, accountants? Why would they? And if they should, what makes you so certain that they aren't already? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15247
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 07:50:00 -
[63] - Quote
I think that's the first time ever I have seen a player unironically suggest that a game should be run by accountants.
Dinsdale, EVE will never, ever make as much money as WoW has. Why aren't you playing that game if profitability is what determines enjoyment? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
Dave Stark
5123
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Posted - 2014.04.27 07:54:00 -
[64] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I think that's the first time ever I have seen a player unironically suggest that a game should be run by accountants.
do you want microtransactions? because that's how you get microtransactions. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15250
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Posted - 2014.04.27 08:05:00 -
[65] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Malcanis wrote:I think that's the first time ever I have seen a player unironically suggest that a game should be run by accountants. do you want microtransactions? because that's how you get microtransactions.
EVE already has microtransactions, although they're pretty macro. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
275
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 09:04:00 -
[66] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:'What is in it for me' (and mine) is one way and what is often attributed (incorrectly) to be the thought process of the Goon, Mynnna (note, please, three n's)
Mynnna's Cap Stable interview fairly clearly paints him as representing nullsec only. His responses touch on changes that can be divided into two kinds:
- those that affect nullsec only (interdictors, nullified interceptors, ESSes)
- those that buff nullsec (refining changes, industry changes)
I'm of the opinion that a CSM who represents players from other areas (highsec, lowsec, WH) would make a point of pointing that out. That Mynnna didn't do so means (to me) that he doesn't represent those players at all.
And honestly, this is a surprise to me. I would think that CCP and CSM would want to strive to have the CSM represent all players, regardless of who elected them.
MDD |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
275
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 09:10:00 -
[67] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:Stabs the blog writer wrote:"-áBut having a Goon finance guy design your risk/reward system is like having Goldman Sachs design your banking regulatory system." Would you rather have someone with no education in banking ins and outs design the system? That will go over well.
I believe that Stabs is pointing out the optics problem, not that Mynnna lacks the industry understanding. Just like having a Goldman Sachs banker develop regulation would have a fairly serious optics problem, given that there are other, unencumbered, experts available.
As for making the optics problem worse by his (Stab's) stance: maybe you have a point. But the best people to address the optics problem would be the CSM representatives themselves. (IMHO)
MDD
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Lady Areola Fappington
New Order Logistics CODE.
1727
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 09:13:00 -
[68] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Mynnna's Cap Stable interview fairly clearly paints him as representing nullsec only. His responses touch on changes that can be divided into two kinds:
- those that affect nullsec only (interdictors, nullified interceptors, ESSes)
- those that buff nullsec (refining changes, industry changes)
I'm of the opinion that a CSM who represents players from other areas (highsec, lowsec, WH) would make a point of pointing that out. That Mynnna didn't do so means (to me) that he doesn't represent those players at all. And honestly, this is a surprise to me. I would think that CCP and CSM would want to strive to have the CSM represent all players, regardless of who elected them. MDD
Hi, I'm a highsec ganker. I have very little knowledge of nullsec, how it works, what it needs/doesn't need. Do you want me representing nullsec players, recommending changes that I think are good for null? Remember, I have no experience in that area, and at best, my recommendations are going to be heavily theorycrafted.
I'd much rather have CSM members who focus on the areas in EVE that they have the most expertise in. The risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP). |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
3629
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 09:17:00 -
[69] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:. That Mynnna didn't do so means (to me) that he doesn't represent those players at all.
And honestly, this is a surprise to me.
He doesn't.
You should vote for a representative who represents your needs.
As always, the fault is with the voters, because thats how democracy "works". *** Vote MTU For CSM *** ***Free The Jita 1*** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "Despite others being missing, at least Ramona is back." - Scipio Artelius |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
275
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 09:25:00 -
[70] - Quote
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:Hi, I'm a highsec ganker. I have very little knowledge of nullsec, how it works, what it needs/doesn't need. Do you want me representing nullsec players, recommending changes that I think are good for null? Remember, I have no experience in that area, and at best, my recommendations are going to be heavily theorycrafted.
I'd much rather have CSM members who focus on the areas in EVE that they have the most expertise in.
But that necessarily means that players who do not have CSM representatives are completely left out of the CSM/CCP discussion. I don't think that is wise.
As for your position that your recommendations would be "heavily theorycrafted" (presumably so as to benefit your represented group, perhaps at the expense of all others): CCP should state that is unacceptable behavior of CSM members. CSM members should strive to do what is best for the game without regard to whether it benefits or harms them or their voter base.
It's one thing to be knowledgeable about an aspect of the game (and bring that to the table). It's another thing entirely to try to affect the game development to your benefit as a primary goal.
MDD |
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
3640
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 09:36:00 -
[71] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote: But that necessarily means that players who do not have CSM representatives are completely left out of the CSM/CCP discussion.
Yes, it does
They should mobilise
Solidarity, brother
Power to the people
Infinite Rice Pudding
Etc *** Vote MTU For CSM *** ***Free The Jita 1*** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "Despite others being missing, at least Ramona is back." - Scipio Artelius |
Marsha Mallow
372
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 09:49:00 -
[72] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:you might want to consider stop listening to the Malcanis', Mike's, and mynnna's of the gaming community, and start listening to, I dunno, accountants? This sounds like a good idea, until you realise people like me are accountants and uh, well we're a bit insane really. It's all the spreadsheets. But if you think it's a good idea I'll run for CSM. My slogan would be "Burn Everything" though, and I'd refuse to participate in meetings unless a) everyone is drunk/in fancy dress b) people fight over ideas IRL with spoons c) I get assigned a personal Dev minion for domestic duties like ironing. Actually need to put some thought into this and make a much longer list.
Um, speak for yourself Stabs, I'm excited.
Re the rest, those people who genuinely think CSM members representing blocs are mindless drones with no opinion of their own and their agenda is to destroy elements of the game with or without CCP's consent. OK! You are entitled to that position. I am entitled to laugh at you.
Granted the state of nullsec is dull atm with only two blocs and not much inbetween, but that's a separate issue to the CSM and representation. Unless someone can demonstrate CFC dominance in null is a direct result of CSM actions? I'd like to see you try prove that. If anything looking at the roster for this and last year nullsec blocs are under-represented by % of players. If you feel violated, harassed, tormented, just a bit emo - please send a letter to the CSM of the people, our beloved Ripard Teg. He will avenge you in his chariot-blog which is immune to the rules we are on the Eve-O websites, via clever utilisation of the rhetorical technique known as 'the harangue'. Demi-god. Angel. Superhero. Callsign #TO THE RIPARDMOBILE! |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
280
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 09:58:00 -
[73] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote: But that necessarily means that players who do not have CSM representatives are completely left out of the CSM/CCP discussion.
Yes, it does They should mobilise Solidarity, brother Power to the people Infinite Rice Pudding Etc Given that there are a small number of CSM positions and a large number of play styles, your position means there are *always* players left out of the CSM/CCP discussion.
MDD |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1458
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 09:59:00 -
[74] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Thomas Harding wrote: C'mon. We (or at least I am) are talking about game here, not real life. I don't know, nor do I care, actual people behind characters. And most definitely I won't assume that the way they act or play reflects their real personality.
Actually, if you're talking about the CSM, you are talking about real life. Their real identities are out there, they the person is representing the playerbase to CCP. Mynna, the real person, has the game knowledge and expertise that I want behind a redesign of the industrial system in this game. I couldn't give two flying ****s about what his corp ticker says, if he can get the job done. actually there can be only one true story: - CSM member is a RL person and his ingame behavior doesn't matter - Goon list for voting for CSM9 is exists The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
3641
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 10:02:00 -
[75] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote: Given that there are a small number of CSM positions and a large number of play styles, your position means there are *always* players left out of the CSM/CCP discussion.
MDD
Cant you run for CSM on multiple platforms just like real life political parties?
Does a CSM member even have to just be one person? *** Vote MTU For CSM *** ***Free The Jita 1*** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "Despite others being missing, at least Ramona is back." - Scipio Artelius |
Kaius Fero
40
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 10:09:00 -
[76] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: There is only 1 Goonswarm member on the CFC. ... yada yada
And tons of pets. You're so full of... grow a dislike butan. |
Gaylord Ballsak
5
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 10:09:00 -
[77] - Quote
Glory and shame (yes I followed the link)... in a way the principle applies to all of "the internet", doesn't it? This board is no exception. Let's reach out even farther and say all of humanity. Wait a few seconds and let that sink in. Absorb it, embrace it - there, now you understand (hopefully) everything. Everything we do, no matter how we label it or justify it publicly and privately has one purpose - to achieve glory (which sometimes means escaping shame). Wait, don't don't resist that feeling starting to take over, give in, feel the warm comforting embrace of the inevitable. Have you had a chance to watch True Detective yet? You should and when you do - pay attention to the subject of the illusion of individuality which is actually summed up quite well in that brief monologue (inserted in what appeared to be a dialogue) in the car. In a way Eve is just that, concentrated in a pill (powder, milkshake or whatever your poison may be). Resentment is natural, resistance is futile. |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
289
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 10:25:00 -
[78] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote: Given that there are a small number of CSM positions and a large number of play styles, your position means there are *always* players left out of the CSM/CCP discussion.
MDD
Cant you run for CSM on multiple platforms just like real life political parties? Does a CSM member even have to just be one person? I think you mean "multiple planks" (which together forms their platform), and I'd say yes they do. But no they cannot sensibly have more than one platform.
AFAIK a CSM member can only be one person you can't have a seat shared by two or more people).
MDD |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
3645
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 10:33:00 -
[79] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote: I think you mean "multiple planks" (which together forms their platform), and I'd say yes they do. But no they cannot sensibly have more than one platform.
AFAIK a CSM member can only be one person you can't have a seat shared by two or more people).
MDD
Well, yes you can, but thats not the point of what we are debating here.
Does anyone know where it says a CSM is a single Player (or account, or Character)?
Thanks *** Vote MTU For CSM *** ***Free The Jita 1*** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "Despite others being missing, at least Ramona is back." - Scipio Artelius |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
290
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 10:50:00 -
[80] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote: I think you mean "multiple planks" (which together forms their platform), and I'd say yes they do. But no they cannot sensibly have more than one platform.
AFAIK a CSM member can only be one person you can't have a seat shared by two or more people).
MDD
Well, yes you can, but thats not the point of what we are debating here. Does anyone know where it says a CSM is a single Player (or account, or Character)? Thanks From the CCP paper establishing the CSM:
Quote:REPRESENTATIVE CANDIDATE ELIGIBILITY Anyone who has held an EVE Online account for more than sixty (60) days is eligible to campaign for a representative seat on the CSM Cite: http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/communityassets/pdf/csm/CSMSummary.pdf As only real world people can hold accounts, then the CSM members are people.
Also from that document:
Quote:The goal of CCP is to provide EVEGÇÖs individuals with societal governance rights. In similar fashion to a real-world democracy models, candidates will be selected by fellow peers to be the voice of their interests to the legislator. Once elected, the responsibility of these representatives will be to uphold the societyGÇÖs views as best they can via direct contact and dialogue with CCP. That seems to suggest that the CSM members set aside their personal or organizational objectives and work for the good of the game as a whole ("uphold the society's views as best they can").
MDD |
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
3650
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 10:55:00 -
[81] - Quote
Hmm so no clearer.
As long as you are at least one real person with an active account (or had one in the past) for 60 days, you can run for CSM.
Thats kinda cool.
CSM Parties should definately be a thing.
Wait, they are, thats why I vote Goon *smack* *** Vote MTU For CSM *** ***Free The Jita 1*** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "Despite others being missing, at least Ramona is back." - Scipio Artelius |
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
115
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 11:50:00 -
[82] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Bethan Le Troix wrote:Silent Rambo wrote:Saw this on Reddit. Posting here: http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/only-you-can-save-universe-ccp-seagull_26.htmlEDIT: Since no one can be bothered to read the article posted, it goes over how non-representative CPM members can be and how the majority of non-Goon players can look at the long line of Goon representation as something bad for the games overall health. Is that good enough for all the lazy people out there? EDIT: Read the damn article if you want to comment. The link does work. It is a long read but an interesting one. I'm in the 'wait and see' contingent as well although I do agree that various events have been extremely worrying: 1) Unifex & CmdrWang leaving with no comment from CCP. Very unappreciative in my humble opinion. 2) P.C. in DUST 514. What a mess with virtual total ownership by DNS. 3) The CSM has become a bit of a joke with one 'official' goon candidate and numerous 'unofficial' goon candidates plus a number of other nullsec candidates. Failure of democracy or death by apathy? Take your pick. 4) Poor decision making at CCP: Financial writeoffs, dropping WoD, 'butter spread too thinly over too little bread'. I'm painting a very black picture there in a 'Dinsdale' way and I do still think we have to wait and see what happens. The remaining industry dev blogs will be released at or during Fanfest and the changes so far proposed aren't that bad. It's going to be.........interesting. Can you list the "unofficial" goon CSM members along with a brief explaination of why they are?
Regarding the 'unofficial' as opposed to 'official' GSF candidates (Or GSF aligned candidates.) remark I made one of the GSF CSM candidates states in her own candidacy statement that she is the "official" candidate. It may mean that she is the official GSF or it may be a amusing or sarcastic comment on her part. Nevertheless I was quoting her term for her position and her reference to there probably being too many representatives of GSF on the CSM.
Personally I would like to see CCP make a rule that there can only be one candidate running from each alliance or from the corporations within an alliance.
Example: XX Alliance comprises of corporation A, B, & C. The alliance decides that member 'A1' of 'A' corporation should run as a candidate for the XX alliance to represent their views on the CSM. This would then mean that no other members of corporations A, B, or C could also run as candidates for the CSM in that year.
Given the biased state of CSM for as long as I can remember this rule would make it more likely that minority viewpoints could be represented rather than large block votes and their minions. We have just seen changes being made to stop the tournament being rigged from the outset. I think the same should be done for the CSM. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5450
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 12:00:00 -
[83] - Quote
Bethan Le Troix wrote: We have just seen changes being made to stop the tournament being rigged from the outset. I think the same should be done for the CSM.
Hold on, perhaps I missed something here.
How, precisely, is/was the AT rigged? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
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Mag's
the united SCUM.
17181
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 12:11:00 -
[84] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Bethan Le Troix wrote: We have just seen changes being made to stop the tournament being rigged from the outset. I think the same should be done for the CSM. Hold on, perhaps I missed something here. How, precisely, is/was the AT rigged? Like to know this as well please.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2806
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 13:38:00 -
[85] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:I think that's the first time ever I have seen a player unironically suggest that a game should be run by accountants.
Dinsdale, EVE will never, ever make as much money as WoW has. Why aren't you playing that game if profitability is what determines enjoyment?
See, here is the thing. CCP is a business, that's product happens to be a computer game. Pretty much every business on the planet has some kind of accountant deeply involved in business.
Accountants might actually sound the warning, "hey, the changes you are planning are kind of bad for business since they will lower our cash flow, and we like cash flow".
And while I never said I would want accountants designing the game, they sure as hell would not set up changes that would disenfranchise a big segment of the player base, and I am not talking about just these changes to industrial characters. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15258
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 13:41:00 -
[86] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Malcanis wrote:I think that's the first time ever I have seen a player unironically suggest that a game should be run by accountants.
Dinsdale, EVE will never, ever make as much money as WoW has. Why aren't you playing that game if profitability is what determines enjoyment? See, here is the thing. CCP is a business, that's product happens to be a computer game. Pretty much every business on the planet has some kind of accountant deeply involved in business. Accountants might actually sound the warning, "hey, the changes you are planning are kind of bad for business since they will lower our cash flow, and we like cash flow". And while I never said I would want accountants designing the game, they sure as hell would not set up changes that would disenfranchise a big segment of the player base, and I am not talking about just these changes to industrial characters.
No, accountants don't do that, because accountants don't know anything about game design. The game designers are no more likely to listen to accountants opinions on sentry drone rebalancing than the accounts are likely to consult with the game designers on tax liabilities or deferring income offsets. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
21327
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 13:57:00 -
[87] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Accountants might actually sound the warning, "hey, the changes you are planning are kind of bad for business since they will lower our cash flow, and we like cash flow". No, they would not. Partly because they would have no way of knowing what the effects of the game design will be and partly because that's not what accountants do. You're talking about business managers and CFOs.
Quote:And while I never said I would want accountants designing the game, they sure as hell would not set up changes that would disenfranchise a big segment of the player base, and I am not talking about just these changes to industrial characters. GǪbut then again, CCP is not doing that either. In fact, if anything, they're reenfranchising a big segment of the player base that has been left to rot for over half a decade now.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1. |
Beta Maoye
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:27:00 -
[88] - Quote
I have no objection to these industial changes.
What I worry about is that the reason "it is good for the game as a whole" is selectively applied in the process of improving the game. When an idea is good as a whole and benefits most players including those power blocks with vested interests. The idea is promoted, supported with figures, discussed with reasons and finally get implemented.
When an idea is good as a whole but rejected by the power blocks because it hurts them. Dev are lobbied. The idea is suppressed. Good reasons are ignored. Average players do not give their opinions as usual. So dev compromised and twisted the mechanic in favor of vested parties.
Eventually, the overall game mechanic will be shifted bit by bit, not overnight, towards the favor of power blocks. Players who don't have the time or don't want to be part of the power blocks will be discouraged to continue the game because they are in a position of too big disadvantages. This is not the path I want to see the game is developed.
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity
3658
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:28:00 -
[89] - Quote
Beta Maoye wrote:I have no objection to these industial changes.
What I worry about is that the reason "it is good for the game as a whole" is selectively applied in the process of improving the game. When an idea is good as a whole and benefits most players including those power blocks with vested interests. The idea is promoted, supported with figures, discussed with reasons and finally get implemented.
When an idea is good as a whole but rejected by the power blocks because it hurts them. Dev are lobbied. The idea is suppressed. Good reasons are ignored. Average players do not give their opinions as usual. So dev compromised and twisted the mechanic in favor of vested parties.
Eventually, the overall game mechanic will be shifted bit by bit, not overnight, towards the favor of power blocks. Players who don't have the time or don't want to be part of the power blocks will be discouraged to continue the game because they are in a position of too big disadvantages. This is not the path I want to see the game is developed.
Please apply to Dino for your tinfoil, Im all out *** Vote MTU For CSM *** ***Free The Jita 1*** "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "Despite others being missing, at least Ramona is back." - Scipio Artelius |
Anna Karhunen
Inoue INEXP
320
|
Posted - 2014.04.27 14:38:00 -
[90] - Quote
Beta Maoye wrote:I have no objection to these industial changes.
What I worry about is that the reason "it is good for the game as a whole" is selectively applied in the process of improving the game. When an idea is good as a whole and benefits most players including those power blocks with vested interests. The idea is promoted, supported with figures, discussed with reasons and finally get implemented.
When an idea is good as a whole but rejected by the power blocks because it hurts them. Dev are lobbied. The idea is suppressed. Good reasons are ignored. Average players do not give their opinions as usual. So dev compromised and twisted the mechanic in favor of vested parties.
Eventually, the overall game mechanic will be shifted bit by bit, not overnight, towards the favor of power blocks. Players who don't have the time or don't want to be part of the power blocks will be discouraged to continue the game because they are in a position of too big disadvantages. This is not the path I want to see the game is developed.
That's how it generally goes in any given MMO. Just replace words "power blocks" with vocal forum posters. CSM is certainly improvement in the feedback process, but only if majority of subscribers vote. As my old maths teacher used to say: "Statistics are like bikinis: It's what they don't show that's interesting". -CCP Aporia |
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