Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1285
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 04:28:00 -
[31] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote: See, I'm not sure it's as simple as just changing a few numbers in a formula or something.
Possibly not quite that simple as that, but I'm sure somewhere in the vector maths has to be a mass/velocity/momentum part of the equation. It depends if they tied it in with anything else crazy directly and changing the variable by a small factor would suddenly result in stations & POS's being bumpable or something.
I wouldn't think it would, but you never know since it's early EVE code. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5464
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 04:36:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote: See, I'm not sure it's as simple as just changing a few numbers in a formula or something.
Possibly not quite that simple as that, but I'm sure somewhere in the vector maths has to be a mass/velocity/momentum part of the equation. It depends if they tied it in with anything else crazy directly and changing the variable by a small factor would suddenly result in stations & POS's being bumpable or something. I wouldn't think it would, but you never know since it's early EVE code.
I wouldn't think something as drastic as bumping stations, but as far as a now defunct submarine simulator turned into a space mmo?
Who knows?
That's part of why I take these "change the code!" suggestions with a hunk of salt. Because a lot of people seem to think that you can just wave the magic wand of computer code and make something happen. I've worked with a fair amount of code in my time, and nothing nearly as complicated as EVE must be. Especially if all the "lack of documentation" stuff is even close to true.
Ever seen a poorly put together server farm? With all the wires criss-crossing and going everywhere, and who knows what connects to what. I need this plug, but I have to follow the wire to make sure it doesn't disconnect something important when I do use it.
Now imagine that instead of wires, it's millions of lines of text. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1287
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 04:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I wouldn't think something as drastic as bumping stations, but as far as a now defunct submarine simulator turned into a space mmo?
Who knows?
That's part of why I take these "change the code!" suggestions with a hunk of salt. Because a lot of people seem to think that you can just wave the magic wand of computer code and make something happen. I've worked with a fair amount of code in my time, and nothing nearly as complicated as EVE must be. Especially if all the "lack of documentation" stuff is even close to true.
Ever seen a poorly put together server farm? With all the wires criss-crossing and going everywhere, and who knows what connects to what. I need this plug, but I have to follow the wire to make sure it doesn't disconnect something important when I do use it.
Now imagine that instead of wires, it's millions of lines of text.
Yep to both servers & code. I'm not a pro (yet) but I've done plenty of amateur level work including online projects like the 200+ user NWN Persistent world coding, and they had some truly terrible early code work done on them, that didn't even have any kind of psuedo code pattern at all. let alone documentation.
Best bug we had on that team was the time we fixed the 'event' code which was broken and made it so timed events could be set to run..... Then we discovered that the server clock code had been broken for years and no-one had even noticed till us. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
5464
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 04:48:00 -
[34] - Quote
Yeah, I have a past distinction in that field that I shall not share, as the last time I did I got doxed, but I know what you're talking about. Promised myself I wouldn't ever do code cleanup again without a damned good reason.
Got into a different area of the tech field instead. But as a result of my past experience, I hold a considerable amount of respect for our code monkey brethren. They don't get enough appreciation, especially from the average player. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
-áPsychotic Monk for CSM9.
|
Trevor Dalech
Dalechar Pest Control
35
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 05:16:00 -
[35] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Tweek Etimua wrote:Destoya wrote:E = 0.5*m*(v^2) Sorry I'm an idiot with math and some science. .... Velocity is squared. That means that as speed increases, energy increases exponentially. As mass increases, it increases linearly. In dumb dumb terms, fasta make stuff move way fartha, fatta make stuff move a lil fartha.
Polynomially, not exponentially. Exponentially would be if there were an e^v somewhere (or any other base.) other than that your point still stands, changes in velocity have a larger effect on kinetic energy than changes in mass. |
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
3431
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 11:07:00 -
[36] - Quote
Trevor Dalech wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:Tweek Etimua wrote:Destoya wrote:E = 0.5*m*(v^2) Sorry I'm an idiot with math and some science. .... Velocity is squared. That means that as speed increases, energy increases exponentially. As mass increases, it increases linearly. In dumb dumb terms, fasta make stuff move way fartha, fatta make stuff move a lil fartha. Polynomially, not exponentially. Exponentially would be if there were an e^v somewhere (or any other base.) other than that your point still stands, changes in velocity have a larger effect on kinetic energy than changes in mass.
Pah :P |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
890
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 11:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
While I am aware of those, you're missing my point.
None of them are so literally game breaking as to warrant recoding the entire physics engine. The development time is better spent elsewhere. Anywhere else.
True. A general slow down doesn't call for an entire recoding. Just a *0.25 or something in the basic formula. I personally believe that once we go entirely DX11, we can then use tessellation for not just better graphics but also a better physics engine, since we 'should' no longer need the giant collision bubbles at that point, but can actually do skin to skin collisions without melting the servers, per their Tessellation tech demo of lots of roids breaking apart into smaller ones as they impact on a ship. But that's several years off at least before we drop DX 9 support. Much as they have started DX11 support so as to iron out the bugs now rather than start trying in a sudden change over. That's not how it works.
There is absolutely no connection between the physics bubbles and the triangles on the models.
Besides that, tesselation adds *virtual* triangles that aren't even there on any model. That's why it's so awesome.
And how you can make a connection between client gfx and servercode is beyond me.
It was a techdemo ... nothing more. Can't even blame you ... but CCP definitely.
Whereever you got that odd "wisdom" from ... forget it for your own sake. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4492860 Killmails for Wrecks!! Ganker tears, best tears! And how do I put text as links into signatures?? |
Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
1904
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 11:30:00 -
[38] - Quote
They should just make shields visible as spheres whenever they are hit by weapons or bumped into. Would make for awesome-looking effects and make the elastic bumps more believable since seeing the shield-spheres collide directly tell you that this is not a normal collision between two material objects ;D |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5205
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 11:43:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tweek Etimua wrote:Destoya wrote:E = 0.5*m*(v^2) Sorry I'm an idiot with math and some science. ....
Yet you asked a question about math and science...
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Hlokk Skoggangur
Shoot Them Later Serious Callers Only
17
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 11:52:00 -
[40] - Quote
Submarine simulation aside for a minute, real(tm) physics if feasible would probably ruins many peoples day. To take an example, lets say this extends to other objects in space. While switching from bumping miners to bowling mining fleets out with astroids would be insanely fun and look awesome, I am not sure anyone would enjoy the pure shocked whine that would create.
Still, taking out a fleet with an expanding cloud of astroids bouncing off each other would look very cool. |
|
Zander Kumamato
Madz Legion Madz Republic
32
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 12:16:00 -
[41] - Quote
Collision mode button, two individuals can turn off bumping then experience the full glory of smashing ships together in fully destructible graphics!
The glory of dying by flying an interceptor at max speed into (through?) a battleship. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
18137
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 13:50:00 -
[42] - Quote
Physics based bumps while hilarious would not be a good idea.
If such a thing came to pass I'd give it less than 72 hours before someone starts using unarmed, extremely fast, ships to make much larger ones explode.
Never go full Ripard |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1458
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 14:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:Also you would fire and have a clear line but your missile would hit the asteroid right next to you as it was getting its barrings, and due to splash damage you would blow up. sounds really cool for me
However i agree that using of simplified boxes around objects for collision makes it just bad in many cases. And using real object boundaries you will blow the server in every big battle The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
6243
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 14:53:00 -
[44] - Quote
Tweek Etimua wrote:Destoya wrote:E = 0.5*m*(v^2) Sorry I'm an idiot with math and some science. ....
American detected.
|
Penguinizer Illat
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
2
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 15:09:00 -
[45] - Quote
I... Why are people using the formula for kinetic energy? That doesn't really make much sense in the context of an object being moved by a collision.
Then again, it's a liquid universe space submarine game, so maybe physics works differently. |
Tweek Etimua
Aliastra Gallente Federation
50
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 16:27:00 -
[46] - Quote
Zander Kumamato wrote:Collision mode button, two individuals can turn off bumping then experience the full glory of smashing ships together in fully destructible graphics!
The glory of dying by flying an interceptor at max speed into (through?) a battleship. Must be 18 or older to collide thorax's? |
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
85
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 16:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Physics based bumps while hilarious would not be a good idea.
If such a thing came to pass I'd give it less than 72 hours before someone starts using unarmed, extremely fast, ships to make much larger ones explode.
72 hours... More like 72 seconds... I've always wanted a practical use for the 10K per second perma MWD Imperial Navy Slicer. (Well, the cheap version is only a little over 8K per second w/o links, or implants.) |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
18142
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 16:36:00 -
[48] - Quote
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Physics based bumps while hilarious would not be a good idea.
If such a thing came to pass I'd give it less than 72 hours before someone starts using unarmed, extremely fast, ships to make much larger ones explode. 72 hours... More like 72 seconds... I've always wanted a practical use for the 10K per second perma MWD Imperial Navy Slicer. (Well, the cheap version is only a little over 8K per second w/o links, or implants.) lol We need to be able to fit ships with explosive charges, one of the combat tutorial missions features just such a ship, which is used to destroy an NPC structure
Tweek Etimua wrote:Zander Kumamato wrote:Collision mode button, two individuals can turn off bumping then experience the full glory of smashing ships together in fully destructible graphics!
The glory of dying by flying an interceptor at max speed into (through?) a battleship. Must be 18 or older to collide thorax's? Still a better love story than Twilight
Never go full Ripard |
Solecist Project
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
901
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 16:38:00 -
[49] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Cassandra Aurilien wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Physics based bumps while hilarious would not be a good idea.
If such a thing came to pass I'd give it less than 72 hours before someone starts using unarmed, extremely fast, ships to make much larger ones explode. 72 hours... More like 72 seconds... I've always wanted a practical use for the 10K per second perma MWD Imperial Navy Slicer. (Well, the cheap version is only a little over 8K per second w/o links, or implants.) lol We need to be able to fit ships with explosive charges, one of the combat tutorial missions features just such a ship, which is used to destroy an NPC structure That would open a huge can of worms CCP would have to figure out how to fix...
Love the idea though... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4492860 Killmails for Wrecks!! Ganker tears, best tears! And how do I put text as links into signatures?? |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 17:57:00 -
[50] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:DaReaper wrote:Divine Entervention wrote:Why can space ships collide into other ships, asteroids, and buildings, but they can still shoot their weapons through them as if they're not there?
It would be fun to use a large collidable structure as cover to lose LoS and prevent some attacks.
I dunno, i guess Tactical positioning within your environment is too hard, and the community full of risk averse carebears demand Easy Mode PvP. Which is also demonstrated as being the case when a 10 year veteran doesn't want skill training time decreased so he may hold onto his advantage.
EvE Online? More like, EasyMode Online when i first started playing this was a problem. If you fired missiles and a rat or shipping happen to be behind an asteroid, the missile would hit the asteroid and cause splash damage. As there was no way to navigate around roids easily this was a very annoying mechanic. They changed this in kali (Cold War) i think O well that makes sense. I guess that kind of contradicts the opinion I'm told about EvE being all about PvP, when CCP themselves have made a change to improve their playerbase's ability to PvE easier. Thanks for the information. It was not just PVE. It was annoying as hell. Because you could not see that billy bob was behind the roid. Several times i was saved a few seconds in pvp back in the day because a missile would not hit me, and other times i missed a kill for the same reason. You would have a clear line of site, but still hit an asteroid. So it went both ways and was a huge change for the better. Also you would fire and have a clear line but your missile would hit the asteroid right next to you as it was getting its barrings, and due to splash damage you would blow up. If eve's collision detection wasn't so awful, then this would not be a problem. It makes me laugh that I can hit my enemy straight through an asteroid, or when my drones fly through a giant space rock as if it wasn't there. |
|
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 18:00:00 -
[51] - Quote
Cassandra Aurilien wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Physics based bumps while hilarious would not be a good idea.
If such a thing came to pass I'd give it less than 72 hours before someone starts using unarmed, extremely fast, ships to make much larger ones explode. 72 hours... More like 72 seconds... I've always wanted a practical use for the 10K per second perma MWD Imperial Navy Slicer. (Well, the cheap version is only a little over 8K per second w/o links, or implants.) Except if we are going down the realistic route, then the perma MWD Imerpial Navy Slicer would get squished like a fly on the windscreen of a high speed train. |
Tollen Gallen
Glory of Reprisal Enterprise
7695
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 18:09:00 -
[52] - Quote
Posting in a Nerf jita thread....
I like UAE. Zimmy Zeta - I f*cking love martinis. the original ones, with gin, not that vodka martini crap. Your old Friends can use me for 7 days, free!!! |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
3055
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 18:10:00 -
[53] - Quote
Something like: (Mass1 + Mass2) / Mass1 * Velocity = DeltaV with If DeltaV < 0.5 m/s then DeltaV = 0
Same with the other ship.
All of that for x, y and z of relative vectors and you can calculate the new vectors each ship gets bumped along at what velocity with really big ships not getting bumped at all by small ships. Probably need to add some equal and opposite force in, too.
Then again finding out where to put the code is probably more difficult than figuring the physics out. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 18:19:00 -
[54] - Quote
Hlokk Skoggangur wrote:Still, taking out a fleet with an expanding cloud of astroids bouncing off each other would look very cool. Would be amusing if miners had to avoid being hit and damaged by asteroids in an asteroid belts. And for the really big belts, one large asteroid and goodbye mining barge.
|
Cassandra Aurilien
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
86
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 18:34:00 -
[55] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Cassandra Aurilien wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Physics based bumps while hilarious would not be a good idea.
If such a thing came to pass I'd give it less than 72 hours before someone starts using unarmed, extremely fast, ships to make much larger ones explode. 72 hours... More like 72 seconds... I've always wanted a practical use for the 10K per second perma MWD Imperial Navy Slicer. (Well, the cheap version is only a little over 8K per second w/o links, or implants.) Except if we are going down the realistic route, then the perma MWD Imerpial Navy Slicer would get squished like a fly on the windscreen of a high speed train.
Oh, it would be destroyed, no doubt about that. It should total most things that it hit though.
Those fits use cruiser sized MWD's, which add effective mass equivalent to 1/2 a cruiser. A 10K/s slicer is moving at 22,000 miles per hour (Mach 30 in aviation terms)... That would be quite an impact. I suppose I could work out the effective impact force, but it's not really worth it.
Besides, if you want real impact force, you can set up a battleship sized MWD Loki with a only slightly slower speed. |
Riyria Twinpeaks
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
1904
|
Posted - 2014.04.28 19:20:00 -
[56] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Something like: (Mass1 + Mass2) / Mass1 * Velocity = DeltaV with If DeltaV < 0.5 m/s then DeltaV = 0
Same with the other ship.
All of that for x, y and z of relative vectors and you can calculate the new vectors each ship gets bumped along at what velocity with really big ships not getting bumped at all by small ships. Probably need to add some equal and opposite force in, too.
Then again finding out where to put the code is probably more difficult than figuring the physics out.
Well, due to different inertia modifiers the amount of inert mass isn't that hugely different between different ship types, as I've pointed out above. If you want all the mass of larger ships to contribute to inertia, then you'll have to live with the result this has to ship agility, as well, I guess.
I was interested in what your formula would mean, so I've done two examples:
First the ships these examples are about:
Condor with 1MN MWD has a mass of 1.6 million kg and an inertia modifier of 2.9 before skills, meaning due to the weird way our warp engines works it has the inertia of a non-warpdrived lump of matter of almost 3 times the mass: 4.64 million kg
Stabber with 10MN MWD has a mass of 16.4 million kg and an inertia modifier of 0.5 before skills, meaning an inert mass of 8.2 million kg.
Archon has a mass of 1.11 billion kg and an inertia modifier of 0.0455 before skills, meaning an inert mass of about 51 million kg.
Putting these into your formula.
First case: Condor bumping an Archon with 3km/s: (55.6 million kg / 4.64 million kg) * 3km / s = 36 km/s delta v???? Maybe you've meant it like this: (own Mass / (other Mass + own Mass)) * Velocity = DeltaV applied to bump target
With that it's (4.64 million kg / 55.6 million kg) * 3km/s ~ 250 m/s DeltaV
Second case: Stabber bumping an Archon with 2 km/s: (8.2 million kg / 59.2 million kg) * 2 km/s ~ 277 m/s DeltaV
So in both cases you'd be able to bump the Archon away with about 250 m/s.
Now I don't have any experience with that ingame, but those with the experience can compare how much more ridiculous things are ingame, I guess. |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 [2] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |