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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 45 post(s) |
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
13
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:05:00 -
[61] - Quote
Eitak Utrigas wrote:CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them. Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd. As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered. No one will move their gear from a station again!
U don't pay the tax in a POS |
Steijn
Quay Industries
463
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 13:06:00 -
[62] - Quote
penifSMASH wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor. The "good" solution is reasonably straightforward, it just requires a chunk of work and adds a fair bit of risk.
Is this post a troll
glad its not only me that thinks its a disgusting comment. |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
153
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 13:06:00 -
[63] - Quote
I like these changes. Is there any way we can see which stations are going to confer which bonuses before the release? You said that the multiplier will vary depending on the quality of the stations facilities.
Also are we going to have to work out the overall multiplier for a system by multiplying all the station's multipliers, or will this information be clear on the star map?
I'm going to have to reserve final judgement as there are too man variables at play and so the consequences won't be fully evident until this goes live. I expect it will need quite a bit of tweaking. Overall though very nice changes. But dam you for making me have to make even more complex spreadsheet now! :) |
Steijn
Quay Industries
463
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:07:00 -
[64] - Quote
Harah Noud wrote:Eitak Utrigas wrote:CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them. Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd. As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered. No one will move their gear from a station again! U don't pay the tax in a POS
you need to re-read the blogs. |
Uncle Shrimpa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:09:00 -
[65] - Quote
Harah Noud wrote:Eitak Utrigas wrote:CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them. Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd. As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered. No one will move their gear from a station again! U don't pay the tax in a POS
You ma'am need some reading comprehension lessons CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
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Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
25
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:10:00 -
[66] - Quote
The examples Greyscale calculated are based on a snapshot from a system under different rules. It is safe to assume that for unlimited number of production jobs possible with only a 4% price markup, everyone will rush to Jita 4-4 and do the manufacturing there.
So this number will change very quickly (read: after 28 days ;-) ). Question is: where will it stabilize, or put differently:
At which percentage of global manufacturing activity will Jita reach 10% (15%/20%) total cost increase? Which percentage is necessary until the surrounding systems are also considered "full".
Could produce a nice effect when goods are manufactured in different places based on profit margin... but still I wonder whether the differences will be big enough to justify transport expenses (time & ISK).
Another thing is that a quick scan on dotlan revealed that there way more stations per system in Caldari space than anywhere else. Is that true?
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TigerXtrm
Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance
624
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:10:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor. The "good" solution is reasonably straightforward, it just requires a chunk of work and adds a fair bit of risk.
You guys have been treating POSs this way for years now. Even with small improvements.
"Don't touch the POS code. It's too complicated and takes too long. We'll do it some other time."
It's getting old.
The point is, even if it has to be some ducttape solution on launch, at least there's a solution. That is still infinitely better than just saying "Yeah, you know those 8 POS labs on your tower? 7 of those are now useless. Bye!".
That better not happen because that would be one of the largest fails since boot.ini. My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things! |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
153
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:12:00 -
[68] - Quote
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:Harah Noud wrote:Eitak Utrigas wrote:CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them. Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd. As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered. No one will move their gear from a station again! U don't pay the tax in a POS You ma'am need some reading comprehension lessons Nope Harah is correct and you are wrong. Tax is only taken on NPC stations unless set by the station/pos owner, that was made pretty clear on the blog. |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
832
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:12:00 -
[69] - Quote
So basically I want to drop my hisec POS into a stationless system and thus only have the base floor pricing?
Could you for the purposes of this give some pricing?
On a 10 run -4 me -4 pe nanofiber 2 job for a max skill character and a 10 run of Hulk at 0 me 0 pe |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
430
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:15:00 -
[70] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
So.
Starbases are either immune to, or have owner-set, taxes, so that's 10% reduced job installation cost right off the bat.
This definitely seems to imply no tax at a POS? |
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Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
25
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:16:00 -
[71] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:So basically I want to drop my hisec POS into a stationless system and thus only have the base floor pricing?
You want to drop your POS in a stationless system with AS FEW MOONS AS POSSIBLE. Only there are very few such places. Might spark conflict... |
Dearthair
Goibhniu Industries The Gentlemen's Society
8
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:17:00 -
[72] - Quote
The small bonus of not paying taxes in a POS is probably completely offset by the fuel costs. Unless there are some fairly massive bonuses for POS manufacturing and research, then the whole concept of risk v reward goes out the window. In high sec at least, POS owners are putting the most at risk. We also have the most difficult time moving if the costs of a system increase to unsustainable levels.
In general, this change screws over large manufacturing operations anyway, whether at a POS or not. The larger the operation, the more difficult it becomes to move to greener pastures when costs rise. NBLID (Not Blue Let It Die), the new motto for miners, manufacturers, and retailers everywhere. |
Fujiko MaXjolt
ACME HARDWARE
7
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:17:00 -
[73] - Quote
Sugar Kyle wrote:How do faction warfare system control improve their manufacturing and research costs? I may have missed them being addressed.
Indeed you did, they were explicitly mentioned as working something akin to the outpost upgrades, giving 0.9 multiplier per "level"... |
Uncle Shrimpa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
16
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:18:00 -
[74] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Uncle Shrimpa wrote:Harah Noud wrote:Eitak Utrigas wrote:CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them. Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd. As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered. No one will move their gear from a station again! U don't pay the tax in a POS You ma'am need some reading comprehension lessons Nope Harah is correct and you are wrong. Tax is only taken on NPC stations unless set by the station/pos owner, that was made pretty clear on the blog.
OK, I think we are getting wrapped up in what is a tax - that being said, the station tax won't be applied, but the cost or building tax will be applied CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
153
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:18:00 -
[75] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
So.
Starbases are either immune to, or have owner-set, taxes, so that's 10% reduced job installation cost right off the bat.
This definitely seems to imply no tax at a POS? It is always amusing watching people throw a hissy fit based upon a false assumption. Sometime I think people just skim the Blog without actually understanding anything, and then jump on the forums to complain about some imagined transgression. But that couldn't be possible, surely people couldn't be so stupid right. |
Steijn
Quay Industries
464
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:20:00 -
[76] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:
So.
Starbases are either immune to, or have owner-set, taxes, so that's 10% reduced job installation cost right off the bat.
This definitely seems to imply no tax at a POS? It is always amusing watching people throw a hissy fit based upon a false assumption. Sometime I think people just skim the Blog without actually understanding anything, and then jump on the forums to complain about some imagined transgression. But that couldn't be possible, surely people couldn't be so stupid right.
as mentioned in the previous post, its manufacturing tax/research taxes we mean, not station taxes. |
Hannah Usoko
Transfixus Industries
2
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:20:00 -
[77] - Quote
Please tell me it will not generate inflation over time. (the price of output is the average of the market prices but the market prices will raise due to the increased manufacturing costs making a new higher average wich is the base of installation cost etc.) |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
676
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:20:00 -
[78] - Quote
Liner Xiandra wrote:With production-cost modifiers being all over the place due to all the various factors, this will result in "location, location, location".
The user-interface blog already mentioned that we can check production-cost on various locations from anywhere in the game. If this is to the tune of...
select job, runs etc > select job location > get production cost quote > *yikes* > select new location > get new quote > *still too high* > select new location > get new quote > acceptable quote > run,
...then I hope we have other means of retrieving this information; such as: - map overlay with (some) modifiers shown - a panel al+í the autopilot/agent which are systembased - a different panel within the industry window
You will be able to compare "relative" cost of each industry facility in the region. Have a look here:
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66065/1/Installations_Tab2.png CCP Nullarbor //-áExotic Dancer-á// DEVGIFS |
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
153
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:21:00 -
[79] - Quote
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Uncle Shrimpa wrote:Harah Noud wrote:Eitak Utrigas wrote:CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them. Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd. As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered. No one will move their gear from a station again! U don't pay the tax in a POS You ma'am need some reading comprehension lessons Nope Harah is correct and you are wrong. Tax is only taken on NPC stations unless set by the station/pos owner, that was made pretty clear on the blog. OK, I think we are getting wrapped up in what is a tax - that being said, the station tax won't be applied, but the cost or building tax will be applied Yes, but that is not a tax, that is the installation cost to hire all the workers and machinary needed. Two very clearly defined and different aspects of industry. If you want to complain that POS labs have installations costs which are too high, then that is another matter. But you can't really make that judgement as GreyScale has said more info is still to come on POS bonuses for having multiple modules, so best to hold tight for that info to be made available. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7126
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:21:00 -
[80] - Quote
Currently outpost owners have the ability to restrict some or all of the slots to ensure they're open for corp projects. Obviously, with no slots, that's going away, but is it being replaced by anything to "gate" who can use the factory? Can use be limited to specific corps or the like (within the alliance), or is it purely standings-based like the other things you can restrict at a station? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1418
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:22:00 -
[81] - Quote
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:
OK, I think we are getting wrapped up in what is a tax - that being said, the station tax won't be applied, but the cost or building tax will be applied
so by tax u mean install cost? not tax EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Antoine Jordan
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
102
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:23:00 -
[82] - Quote
Hey man just FYI in your mock-up near the end, it says "mupltie" which I'm pretty sure isn't a word, in English anyway. |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
2041
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:24:00 -
[83] - Quote
Rust Connor wrote:Could you elaborate more about the ME skill change? I've spent almost 20% of my character life time to level it to 5, just wanna see how good/bad the decision was.
We've not 100% pinned this down yet, it's on my to-do list :)
Magic Crisp wrote:If you allow me to ask, have you checked how this affects t2 BPO vs BPC manufacturing fees? This also depends on other changes, right, but let's take into account we'll able to do whatever we are able to do here. So, compared to a 30d long job from a tech2 BPO, a tech2 BPC with a limited number of runs will be more expensive. Have you checked numbers how much savings can be done this way, and by this, buffing tech2 BPO owners even more?
Otherwise the stuff seems great, I kinda like the ideas. However, i personally think that standings should affect fees at NPC stations. And also, amarrian outposts should have no fees at all, because those slaves are doing the job, for free ;)
No, I haven't. I'll try and do that :)
adriaans wrote:1) Does every station in a system cause a discount or only stations that have factories/research facilities? (NPC ones). 2) Can we have an example of how BPC jobs are priced so I am sure I understand it correctly? I hope I am wrong in thinking that invented BPC's will become much more expensive... (I.e. indirect buff to T2 BPO's). 3) Is POS based jobs still faster from time multipliers? (0.65, 0.5, 0.75 respectively for copy, invent, manufact).
Every station gives some level of discount.
I'll have a look at invention BPC costs
I believe the existing speed multipliers for starbase structures are still in place, Ytterbium is looking at them atm.
Vincent Athena wrote:I'm a little worried about "station irrelevance". In any solar system with multiple stations there will be good ones and not so good ones. It would seem like this pricing scheme will make the not-so-good stations irrelevant. Why even have them in the game?
All stations get the cost bonuses from all stations in the system, it's not a per-station thing.
Harah Noud wrote:Well other than these points I m happy with the changes
1- a +5% ME bonus for a fully upgraded amarr null sec stations seems high , maybe raise their run cost to compensate?
2- I think it s really important to have the NPC station tax be affected by standings. I hope u could consider doing it with the expansion!
Btw, is the industry implants effects still the same in the new system? Is it calculated above all other bonuses?
Great job
The full 5% bonus is a *lot* of money, and in any case is somewhat overshadowed currently by the Minmatar reprocessing bonus. We're not super-concerned about the balance here just yet.
I'll see what can be done about the standings.
I believe industry implants should still work, yes.
Calorn Marthor wrote:The examples Greyscale calculated are based on a snapshot from a system under different rules. It is safe to assume that for unlimited number of production jobs possible with only a 4% price markup, everyone will rush to Jita 4-4 and do the manufacturing there.
So this number will change very quickly (read: after 28 days ;-) ). Question is: where will it stabilize, or put differently:
At which percentage of global manufacturing activity will Jita reach 10% (15%/20%) total cost increase? Which percentage is necessary until the surrounding systems are also considered "full".
Could produce a nice effect when goods are manufactured in different places based on profit margin... but still I wonder whether the differences will be big enough to justify transport expenses (time & ISK).
Another thing is that a quick scan on dotlan revealed that there way more stations per system in Caldari space than anywhere else. Is that true?
Jita would hit 10% of build cost aaaat... somewhere around 2% of global activity. It's at 0.39% in the snapshot I have. 5x increase in job hours would do it. 15% is around 5%, 20% is at 8%.
Medalyn Isis wrote:Uncle Shrimpa wrote:Harah Noud wrote:Eitak Utrigas wrote:CCP, considering that a large majority of manufacturers use a multi billion ISK POS, for which they spend 500m a month fuelling, you really havent addressed how this is going to impact them. Paying taxes to install a job in your own starbase is absurd. Equally, allowing unlimited slots for labs is just as absurd. As it stands there is no reason to run operations from a POS so the whole risk vs reward things has been completely shattered. No one will move their gear from a station again! U don't pay the tax in a POS You ma'am need some reading comprehension lessons Nope Harah is correct and you are wrong. Tax is only taken on NPC stations unless set by the station/pos owner, that was made pretty clear on the blog.
Lemme clear this up:
WORKFORCE COSTS, ie job installation costs, are paid at starbases. This is not a "tax", it's the cost of labor, which goes up in busy systems as you'd expect.
TAXES, the additional 1.1x multiplier to your workforce costs, are not paid at starbases. |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
676
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:24:00 -
[84] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Currently outpost owners have the ability to restrict some or all of the slots to ensure they're open for corp projects. Obviously, with no slots, that's going away, but is it being replaced by anything to "gate" who can use the factory? Can use be limited to specific corps or the like (within the alliance), or is it purely standings-based like the other things you can restrict at a station?
We are still looking at this actually, but yes there will be the ability to set some restrictions per facility instead of per assembly line which you used to do. CCP Nullarbor //-áExotic Dancer-á// DEVGIFS |
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
2041
|
Posted - 2014.04.29 13:25:00 -
[85] - Quote
Antoine Jordan wrote:Hey man just FYI in your mock-up near the end, it says "mupltie" which I'm pretty sure isn't a word, in English anyway.
True fact. Have a cookie :) |
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Qorinn Eselle
Maasin Analytics
0
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:25:00 -
[86] - Quote
The economic logic behind the installation cost calculation eludes me. Making the installation cost for a manufacturing job correlate directly to the sell price of the completed item in a given region doesn't make much sense.
The cost to manufacture an individual BMW has nothing to do with the final sticker price at the dealership, let alone an average of sticker prices in a particular region over a given time. If anything, there might be pressure on the sell price created by rising manufacturing costs, but not the other way around.
I would love to hear Dr EyjoGGÇÖs perspective on this.
IGÇÖm glad to hear that youGÇÖre GÇ£aware of the risk of price manipulation,GÇ¥ and that youGÇÖre GÇ£confident this system is robust in this regard.GÇ¥ It would be nice to get more details on how you plan to combat this, because it is inevitable that GÇ£someoneGÇ¥ will try. |
Elmer Scribner
Cold Hard Productions Steel Conglomerate
56
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:26:00 -
[87] - Quote
I really think that the starbase (POS) bonuses needs to be sorted before release.
As has been mentioned, a large portion of high sec industry happens in a POS (or maybe we're all wrong and hardly any industry is happening in a POS?). What benefit to POS owners will exist after release?
Does saving that 10% suddenly make operating a POS not worth it and should I move everything to station instead?
I'm assuming POS arrays still maintain any time bonuses so maybe that will make it worth it to keep a POS running? |
Felicity Love
Whore and Peace
1715
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:26:00 -
[88] - Quote
Perhaps I missed it... but where does the *effect* of having great standings with one NPC corp (or state faction) or another factor into the cost of doing "builds" at npc stations ?
Or not ?
... and I was just saying the other day, "Damn, I miss Soundwave"....
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Steijn
Quay Industries
464
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:27:00 -
[89] - Quote
Felicity Love wrote:Perhaps I missed it... but where does the *effect* of having great standings with one NPC corp (or state faction) or another factor into the cost of doing "builds" at npc stations ? Or not ?
it doesnt............................yet. |
Uncle Shrimpa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2014.04.29 13:27:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote: Lemme clear this up:
WORKFORCE COSTS, ie job installation costs, are paid at starbases. This is not a "tax", it's the cost of labor, which goes up in busy systems as you'd expect.
TAXES, the additional 1.1x multiplier to your workforce costs, are not paid at starbases.
Tomato Tomatoe
It is all a ******* tax, we ain't getting this **** back and it goes to the "Man"
CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
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