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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 45 post(s) |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
302
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:35:00 -
[271] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Weaselior wrote:What are the sort of broad/narrow specialties when it comes to non-ships (or are ships the only thing that teams boost)? How narrow or broad are they (e.g. is narrow like "small lasers", "lasers" or "mega beam laser IIs only" and is broad like "mods", "armor mods" or "active armor taking mods")? The teams cover everything possible to manufacture, the Ship type was just used as an example. To give you a bit better idea for the specialties, there are 135 of them total (40 broad, 95 narrow). An example is Armor, a broad specialty. It has three narrow specialties under it - Armor Active Modules, Armor Passive Expanders and Armor Passive Resistance. (I haven't read the whole comment thread yet, so if this is already covered, please ignore.)
Please provide the complete list.
Also, I may simply be dense, but I don't really see how teams will be applicable to non-manufacturing activities (ME research, TE research, copying, invention, and reverse engineering). Did I miss something?
MDD |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2572
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:35:00 -
[272] - Quote
Highest bidder can name the team? eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
600
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:36:00 -
[273] - Quote
Max Kolonko wrote:Max Kolonko wrote:What is the cost of hiring a team compared to basic cost of running tbe job? How this scales with levels of team specialization? I cant find it in the blog.
Also, lets say the team reduces mineral cost for item by 5% and that item requires 5 units trit to build. Im runing a single run and have no benefit as 5*.95 is still 5, but if i run 4 runs of this item in the single job will it decrease the mineral cost from 20 to 19 (5*4*.95) or will it treat separate items requirment as base for calculation - round(5*.95)*4=20
The same question goes to all bonuses to manufacturing from pos modules and others bonuses to industry introduced in past industry blogs Any chance for reply?
Team cost ranges between +2% to +18% modification on the workforce cost. So the exact ISK amount depends on the activity in the system (which affects the workforce cost). The team cost is based on the overall efficiency of the team (i.e. the efficiency levels of the team members).
The team mineral bonus is added to existing bonuses, like from BP research, so it will be a cumulative thing. As with all % reductions, the exact benefits will vary depending on BoM and number of runs, as you point out. |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
415
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:36:00 -
[274] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:Highest bidder can name the team? Time To ***** on that idea is quite short. |
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
371
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:37:00 -
[275] - Quote
So for RP types there may be some ethical considerations in using the teams since the boosters drive them mad or catatonic. Ethical considerations unless you're Caldari that is. Anything for an edge with those people. :-) |
mkint
1170
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:38:00 -
[276] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:Loraine Gess wrote: How are the ME/TE bonuses planned to stack at this point? 10% ME + 7.5% ME (team) + 2% ME (PoS) = 19.5% material savings from the new base?
Whatever it is it will be precisely cancelled by the slot cost increase from the popularity of your system having a team. Not that you can predict what that'll be of course. No. It'll be completely unpredictable, which is precisely the opposite of what anyone running a business wants. Bingo. Let's pretend you are in a planning meeting at GM for the 2016 production lines. Me (CFO): OK, what do you expect our labour costs on the new Zoomer Hybrid will be. You: (Chief Accoutant): We dunno, labour costs are all over the place, because we will be bidding with Toyota in Japan for some really crazy workers to improve production, on an ongoing basis, and we don't even know if we will get them. Me: That is stupid, don't we have fixed contracts with these perople? But moving on. How does our production facility look like? You: Well, we are not sure what our costs will be there too. If Chysler moves into town, and they could any moment without notification, our costs could go up an unknown amount, especially if Ford does too. Me: Wait, what is this about Ford and Chrysler. Don't you have a clue what they are doing? And you are saying what other people do affects the quality of our own lines, and you have no clue if it will happen and by how much? Me: I am starting to question your competence. How about we move to Alaska and set up shop there, and bit the bullet with the huge risks and costs of transporting materials, blueprints and cars to and from there. Surely then if we committ to such a massive, longterm venture, we can get a handle on our costs. You: Sorry, we can't guarantee anything then either. We might be good for a couple weeks or months and then we don't know if we will be profitable or not again. Me: Get out of my office, I am calling security. Your analogy doesn't answer the question asked, but it does bring up an interesting point...
there's a reason all cars in the US are made in detroit. (except saturns, but does anybody really care about saturn? do they even still exist?) They are made in detroit because it's more cost effective to build a factory where there are competent workers, easy access to infrastructure, and easy access to raw materials than it is to try to bring all those to your random podunk backwater factory. Likewise, consider the volatile nature of the stereotypical mining town.
But the real question is if making in-game manufacturing reflect the concerns of RL manufacturing would make things more or less fun and interesting.
Oh, and to the original question: outcome is based on when you click the "OK" button to build. Whatever that window says will happen is what will happen. Maxim 34: If you're leaving scorch-marks, you need a bigger gun. |
Rekkr Nordgard
Imperial Reclaiming
389
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:38:00 -
[277] - Quote
Oh look, more complexity for the sake of adding more complexity. |
Tam Althor
lll tempered sea bass Brothers of Tangra
25
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:39:00 -
[278] - Quote
Sorry, not really seeing anything to get excited about here. Really would not miss it if this entire feature was dropped to spend resources filling in all the holes left from the previous two dev blogs. |
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
600
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:41:00 -
[279] - Quote
Querns wrote:A question: do Broad and Narrow team bonuses stack?
For example (may not reflect reality): I hire a team with a broad specialization of 5% in Frigates and a narrow specialty of 10% in Covert Ops. Do any subsequent Covert Ops frigates I build have a 15% bonus?
Is it even possible for this sort of overlap to happen when teams are being created by the server?
The bonuses stack. The way the team creation works, you will either only have the broad bonus, or both the broad and narrow bonus. This is because a team member cannot have a narrow specialty unless there is another team member providing the broad specialty. So for instance in your example, you could never have a team with a member with the Covert Ops specialty, but not a team member with the Small Class specialty (which is the broad specialty above Covert Ops).
I didn't want to go into too many details on team creation and specialties in the dev blog, rather I'm aiming to do a separate dev blog on this in a week or two, which also lists all the specialties. |
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
600
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:43:00 -
[280] - Quote
Seith Kali wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Seith Kali wrote:Can you confirm either way if 'escrow' for losing bids is lost or fractionally taxed in any form? You get 100% of the amount back right now. Are you happy with that? It would be nice if I want to tactically mess with other's strategies though bidding for teams there would be some kind of cost. If N3 rolled out a raven doctrine, for example. We would have an inherent interest in preventing them from getting an appropriate team for a reasonable rate. It seems to me the ability to drive up team auctions has a lot of advantages with little trade off.
We implemented the basic bid system in a very rudimentary form as first iteration, to make sure it was functional. We have several follow-up iterations on it to make it more robust and interesting, not sure if and when we'll get to them. This would then be one of the things we'd look into. |
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
602
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:44:00 -
[281] - Quote
Aineko Macx wrote:So will we get an API endpoint to query a systems teams and their characterstics? The same is needed for the new cost scaling.
API support is on our to-do list. Can't say for sure when it will be ready. |
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Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
140
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:45:00 -
[282] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Berluth Luthian wrote:I guess since teams can be used for POS/wormhole work, they can be summoned in systems where there isn't a station service for their respective specialty? Yes, a team can operate in a system regardless of the system's infrastructure.
How are you calculating relocation fees for wormholes? After all...it's a matter of rolling holes until a close connection to the teams home system can be obtained. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
598
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:45:00 -
[283] - Quote
Green Gambit wrote: No, I want uncertainies in the system, so that I can make more money by being smarter than everybody else.
You're like this guy who goes onto sommerblink and makes a crap load of isk by being "smarter than everybody else", then loses it all again because he didn't realise it was just a roulette wheel and he got lucky.
The market already provides uncertainties. The buy price of materials and the sale price of goods fluctuates. The kind of certainties I want as a builder involves me fixing the price at the point at which I buy the materials, so I know when to sell and how much profit I've made when I do so. I can't fix the price if my production costs are going to fluctuate unpredictably between my buying the materials and my completing the job.
Unlike British Leyland in the good old 1970's, which didn't have a clue how much each Mini cost it to make, I want to know precisely how much each item I build has cost me to make (Leyland went bust, FYI). If I don't have that number available I'm not going to make it. If you think there's a "trick" here where you can make a killing in ISK by not knowing that number, you're an idiota. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7183
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:46:00 -
[284] - Quote
Midnight Hope wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Berluth Luthian wrote:I guess since teams can be used for POS/wormhole work, they can be summoned in systems where there isn't a station service for their respective specialty? Yes, a team can operate in a system regardless of the system's infrastructure. How are you calculating relocation fees for wormholes? After all...it's a matter of rolling holes until a close connection to the teams home system can be obtained. answered earlier: 50 jumps, always Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7183
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:47:00 -
[285] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote: Unlike British Leyland in the good old 1970's, which didn't have a clue how much each Mini cost it to make, I want to know precisely how much each item I build has cost me to make (Leyland went bust, FYI). If I don't have that number available I'm not going to make it. If you think there's a "trick" here where you can make a killing in ISK by not knowing that number, you're an idiota.
that's why we're going to make so much money: because we're not risk-averse pansies and can charge high margins as you flee the market Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
395
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:47:00 -
[286] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Max Kolonko wrote:Max Kolonko wrote:What is the cost of hiring a team compared to basic cost of running tbe job? How this scales with levels of team specialization? I cant find it in the blog.
Also, lets say the team reduces mineral cost for item by 5% and that item requires 5 units trit to build. Im runing a single run and have no benefit as 5*.95 is still 5, but if i run 4 runs of this item in the single job will it decrease the mineral cost from 20 to 19 (5*4*.95) or will it treat separate items requirment as base for calculation - round(5*.95)*4=20
The same question goes to all bonuses to manufacturing from pos modules and others bonuses to industry introduced in past industry blogs Any chance for reply? Team cost ranges between +2% to +18% modification on the workforce cost. So the exact ISK amount depends on the activity in the system (which affects the workforce cost). The team cost is based on the overall efficiency of the team (i.e. the efficiency levels of the team members). The team mineral bonus is added to existing bonuses, like from BP research, so it will be a cumulative thing. As with all % reductions, the exact benefits will vary depending on BoM and number of runs, as you point out.
So is that a yes? Will %reduction bonus be applied to totall ammount of of materiall needed for a job or per unit of item? The former benefits large quantity run on items where the small % reduction on single items have no effect but it would work on summary of needed materials for entire x-run job.
Also the cost of teams is applaid to normall team cost? So for example if it costs 1 000 000 for normal workers on a specific job than it would be 1 800 000 for +18% cost team? Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
5212
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:48:00 -
[287] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Bingo.
Let's pretend you are in a planning meeting at GM for the 2016 production lines.
Me (CFO): OK, what do you expect our labour costs on the new Zoomer Hybrid will be. You: (Chief Accoutant): We dunno, labour costs are all over the place, because we will be bidding with Toyota in Japan for some really crazy workers to improve production, on an ongoing basis, and we don't even know if we will get them. Me: That is stupid, don't we have fixed contracts with these perople? But moving on. How does our production facility look like? You: Well, we are not sure what our costs will be there too. If Chysler moves into town, and they could any moment without notification, our costs could go up an unknown amount, especially if Ford does too. Me: Wait, what is this about Ford and Chrysler. Don't you have a clue what they are doing? And you are saying what other people do affects the quality of our own lines, and you have no clue if it will happen and by how much?
Me: I am starting to question your competence. How about we move to Alaska and set up shop there, and bit the bullet with the huge risks and costs of transporting materials, blueprints and cars to and from there. Surely then if we committ to such a massive, longterm venture, we can get a handle on our costs. You: Sorry, we can't guarantee anything then either. We might be good for a couple weeks or months and then we don't know if we will be profitable or not again.
Me: Get out of my office, I am calling security.
But if Chrysler moves into town, you WILL have to compete with them for labor, materials, maintenance, supplies... and that means increased costs.
The difference here is that moving your base of operations to Alaska is a piece of cake compared to moving an entire GM assembly line. Your "Huge risk and cost of transporting materials" is pretty low unless you're really really bad at internet spaceships.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2748
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:49:00 -
[288] - Quote
OK, a few numbers. The highest workforce cost CCP has mentioned is 15% of the value of what you are producing. The highest team cost is 18% of the workforce cost, or 2.7% of the value of what you are producing.
As long as that team reduces your material requirement by at least 3%, you win. As the highest cost team should have a 5% bonus, you should win, every time.
The same calculation could be done with a team that costs 2% and provides a 1% bonus, but you will get the same result: You win.
Yes, there are cases where you do not win (hiring a team that is expensive, but happens to have a poor bonus for the job you happen to be doing, and you are in an expensive solar system). But that will be rare. In the majority of cases the answer is the same: A team will be better then no team. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
475
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:50:00 -
[289] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Querns wrote:A question: do Broad and Narrow team bonuses stack?
For example (may not reflect reality): I hire a team with a broad specialization of 5% in Frigates and a narrow specialty of 10% in Covert Ops. Do any subsequent Covert Ops frigates I build have a 15% bonus?
Is it even possible for this sort of overlap to happen when teams are being created by the server? The bonuses stack. The way the team creation works, you will either only have the broad bonus, or both the broad and narrow bonus. This is because a team member cannot have a narrow specialty unless there is another team member providing the broad specialty. So for instance in your example, you could never have a team with a member with the Covert Ops specialty, but not a team member with the Small Class specialty (which is the broad specialty above Covert Ops). I didn't want to go into too many details on team creation and specialties in the dev blog, rather I'm aiming to do a separate dev blog on this in a week or two, which also lists all the specialties. Oh, cool -- I didn't think that it would be de riguer that a narrow would require a broad. That's a pretty elegant solution for what I thought was gonna be the remote possibility of "super teams" in one particular field.
And, yeah, I wasn't trying to ask for all of the specialties. I just made up an example off the cuff to illustrate my point with little regard to what the actual specialties might have been. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3150
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 15:50:00 -
[290] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Aineko Macx wrote:So will we get an API endpoint to query a systems teams and their characterstics? The same is needed for the new cost scaling. API support is on our to-do list. Can't say for sure when it will be ready.
Sooner the better.
The earlier you can give us all the numbers for the new system, the sooner we can play with them. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
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Uncle Shrimpa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
20
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:51:00 -
[291] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:Loraine Gess wrote: Also the popularity of my system having a team? There's a lot of those. 4000 teams. I think my system will not be the only one with one, or more.
4000 teams. What's the point if there are so many? It doesn't make any sense at all. And for a 7.5% bonus? Whether that's worth it or not depends on how much the team costs doesn't it. You have no idea what the bids will be. It seems to me that people will bid up to but no further than whatever their break-even on the team is. Totally crazy. 7.5% cost savings on an entire month's production, with as many characters as I can shove into itYou are a fool, a goddamned fool, if you cannot see how amazing that would be.
don't forget to add in the 5% savings from a nullsec outpost
CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7183
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:53:00 -
[292] - Quote
Max Kolonko wrote: Also the cost of teams is applaid to normall team cost? So for example if it costs 1 000 000 for normal workers on a specific job than it would be 1 800 000 for +18% cost team?
+18% means it would be 1,180,000 not 1,800,000 Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
598
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:54:00 -
[293] - Quote
Weaselior wrote: that's why we're going to make so much money: because we're not risk-averse pansies and can charge high margins as you flee the market
It's like physics: If you don't know what your measurement error is, you haven't made a measurement. If you don't know what risk you're taking, you haven't taken a risk, you've just played roulette.
Also calling me a pansy for wanting to run my Eve hobby as I'd run a business, rather than simply pillock about like a day trader on coke. That's mature. Very mature. |
Green Gambit
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
54
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:54:00 -
[294] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote: You: (Chief Accoutant): We dunno, labour costs are all over the place, because we will be bidding with Toyota in Japan for some really crazy workers to improve production, on an ongoing basis, and we don't even know if we will get them. Me: That is stupid, don't we have fixed contracts with these perople? But moving on. How does our production facility look like? You: Well, we are not sure what our costs will be there too. If Chysler moves into town, and they could any moment without notification, our costs could go up an unknown amount, especially if Ford does too. Me: Wait, what is this about Ford and Chrysler. Don't you have a clue what they are doing? And you are saying what other people do affects the quality of our own lines, and you have no clue if it will happen and by how much?
Erm doesn't the real-world work somewhat like that? Tech companies setup in silicon valley because there's a readily available labour market there - even though the costs can be higher.
No manufacturing company in the world will be able to tell you exactly what their labour costs will be at the end of the year - there are too many variables that can change things. What you do is budget what you expect these things to be, and ensure that you're making enough profits to cover the variabilities in your costs.
Again, a large problem in Eve currently is that because everything can be perfectly calculated in advance, everybody is willing to work on tiny profit margins. I'm looking forward to being able to take on these new risks, and make more profits at the end of the day. |
Nyjil Lizaru
Aideron Robotics
24
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:57:00 -
[295] - Quote
I do small-scale building of tech 2 modules, I'm a dabbler I admit. From what I see in these changes, I might (or might not) move all my stuff a time or two, then get tired of relocating and just accept smaller profits. I can see the full-time builders getting into this, moving frequently, chasing good margins and having fun (for certain values of 'fun'). But my earlier feelings that these changes were going to help small-timers have completely evaporated.
Overall reaction: "Meh, more **** to learn. I don't envy the newer players at all." Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law: -á "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity." |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
395
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:57:00 -
[296] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Max Kolonko wrote: Also the cost of teams is applaid to normall team cost? So for example if it costs 1 000 000 for normal workers on a specific job than it would be 1 800 000 for +18% cost team?
+18% means it would be 1,180,000 not 1,800,000
A typo :) fixed my earlier post
Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
140
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:57:00 -
[297] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Are there any plans to allow DUST players to invade eve stations and kill the manufacturing teams? If there are, I'm not aware of them. Though we did discuss housing the teams in a structure in space that can be shot at.
Between Inferno and this, these guys can't catch a break. :D
I love the concept though at first glance it seems the guys (alliances) with the biggest wallets will get the better teams and corner the market...specially if you are the only one having access to those teams. I'm thinking in deep null sec alliances, who btw, are also getting a big buff to industry from the other changes introduced this summer. We'll have to see how it plays out but the little guy in high sec seems to be screwed once more.
Please, please, please include:
- Team ownership - Geographical differences in team specialties.
Specially team ownership, it will add some needed variety to PI and hopefully another profession to EVE!! |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7185
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 15:57:00 -
[298] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Weaselior wrote: that's why we're going to make so much money: because we're not risk-averse pansies and can charge high margins as you flee the market
It's like physics: If you don't know what your measurement error is, you haven't made a measurement. If you don't know what risk you're taking, you haven't taken a risk, you've just played roulette. Also calling me a pansy for wanting to run my Eve hobby as I'd run a business, rather than simply pillock about like a day trader on coke. That's mature. Very mature. all of the risks you're taking are known and can be factored in
it's just that requires thinking and adaptation, something the average highsec industrialist flees from as fast as his chubby little legs let him
good business is about taking calculated risks Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Yuki Kasumi
Some names are just stupid
36
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:58:00 -
[299] - Quote
There seems to be some confusion in regards to the use of teams. Can more than one industry job use the same team at the same time? I.e two characters both using the same team to manufacture one job each.
EDIT: This seems to have been answered already, and it is possible for more than one job to use the same team at the same time |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
599
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Posted - 2014.04.30 15:58:00 -
[300] - Quote
Loraine Gess wrote: 7.5% cost savings on an entire month's production, with as many characters as I can shove into it
You are a fool, a goddamned fool, if you cannot see how amazing that would be.
So with your huge balls winning on the labour auctions all the time your system is going to be very popular for building isn't it. So subtract from your 7.5% bonus the increased cost of production for your slots, the increased cost of your office (if you need one) and the costs of actually winning the auction. Now tell me what your actual costs are.
You can't can you. You know it's > 0 and you pray it's less than the 7.5% bonus you're getting from having the team. Otherwise you have no idea. |
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