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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 45 post(s) |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5617
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Posted - 2014.04.30 21:45:00 -
[481] - Quote
I know this goes against the basic nature of many industrialists who are used to always having every possible cost savings and risk reduction strategy in game constantly in use by them, but this adds a new dynamic.
Figure your normal production costs per normal (dirt easy with the new AI). Consider speculating a little bit of money to get a better team in your chosen (for whatever reason) center(s) of production. "IF" you happen to get a team that will help with whatever you produce that is simply the icing on the cake, a bonus to your bottom line. Don't go in counting on it as a vital part of your profit/loss calculations.
It's as simple as that. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5617
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Posted - 2014.04.30 21:50:00 -
[482] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:CCP SoniClover wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:Invention details PLEASE. Does the ME bonus apply to invention jobs? Does it reduce datacores required or does it boost the ME output of the copy? Invention teams are coming later in a point release, so we haven't nailed down how they will work. They might work similar (or even replace) decryptors. Quoted for posterity. Teams do for manufacturing exactly what decryptors do for invention. On another note, I have to agree with those saying that this is making industry more complex. Whether this is good or bad is a matter of individual opinion. Personally, I think its a PITA, and will require an entirely new UI aspect for the bidding process. I'm certainly not going to quit over it, and I sure as Hell won't be chasing teams across New Eden. I will simply use the best possible team available and I will likely never bid on them. The fact that all bids within a solar system are pooled together means that the systems with the most successful manufacturers will always get the best teams. Whether that system happens to be Jita, Nonni, VFK, or some random system remains to be seen. Since all players can see where those teams are operating, it will eventually come out where the best teams are operating (can you say EveMaps?) and some players will move there to take advantage of those excellent teams. But that will increase congestion, raising the installation fees of jobs. Griefers and suicide gankers will also use this information to find targets. Perhaps next year Burn Jita won't actually be in Jita. I'm looking forward to see how the dynamics of this new system play out. Indeed, if a system continues to gain activity due to having consistently high quality and useful teams, it eventually begins to get so expensive that even those top notch teams can't provide enough advantage to justify keeping all that production going on there. Then people begin to relocate to the next best teams/low population systems... and the cycle continues.
The system is highly self balancing, and actually quite brilliant.
Now if only something similar could be implemented for market activity. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7200
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Posted - 2014.04.30 21:51:00 -
[483] - Quote
Is it correct that due to the one-week auction there effectively won't be teams until a week after the patch hits? Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
5617
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Posted - 2014.04.30 21:53:00 -
[484] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Is it correct that due to the one-week auction there effectively won't be teams until a week after the patch hits? I think he said something about pre-seeding teams in one of his many replies. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
445
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Posted - 2014.04.30 22:00:00 -
[485] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
I guess logistics is free, right? The 50% increase in jump fuel consumption doesn't kinda hurt nullsec producers just a little? Maybe? You think any real nullsec producer is going to be building battleships to sell in empire? I think you're pretty safe there. Carry on.
I don't believe I said logistics was free? I think I already mentioned earlier that to drive competition out some increased logistics cost will be acceptable in the short to medium term. They (the very organized null groups) already make profit whilst having to use logistics now, and will maximize production on the most profit making items they can to offset the increased jump fuel costs. This will be further maximized as more people have to move to null to maintain some profit margin, creating null markets. |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
304
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Posted - 2014.04.30 22:00:00 -
[486] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Weaselior wrote:Is it correct that due to the one-week auction there effectively won't be teams until a week after the patch hits? I think he said something about pre-seeding teams in one of his many replies.
CCP SoniClover wrote:Iorga Eeta wrote: Joking aside, I like the idea in concept. It'll be interesting to see what happens when it goes live. How long is the "auction" period for a team, btw?
The auction will last for 7 days. We will pre-seed teams when this goes live, so on average six auctions will end every hour. Weaselior is right to ask, though. SoniClover's response was directly regarding the auctions; there's some wiggle room about whether teams will be seeded *active* at the release.
Soniclover's reply does point out that there will be some very short auctions (a few hours) right after release though. Those might be important to watch.
MDD |
ElectronHerd Askulf
Reasonable People Of Sound Mind
5
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Posted - 2014.04.30 22:21:00 -
[487] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Dirk MacGirk wrote:
I guess logistics is free, right? The 50% increase in jump fuel consumption doesn't kinda hurt nullsec producers just a little? Maybe? You think any real nullsec producer is going to be building battleships to sell in empire? I think you're pretty safe there. Carry on.
I don't believe I said logistics was free? I think I already mentioned earlier that to drive competition out some increased logistics cost will be acceptable in the short to medium term. They (the very organized null groups) already make profit whilst having to use logistics now, and will maximize production on the most profit making items they can to offset the increased jump fuel costs. This will be further maximized as more people have to move to null to maintain some profit margin, creating null markets.
Waiting to see activity numbers, but I don't expect there to be much reason to move an industrial character to null - there are high-sec systems sufficiently quiet in high-sec to be cheap enough that the additional effort and cost in moving to null isn't warranted.
Null industry right now is at a chicken-and-egg stage: there's not a sufficient market that an industrialist gets competitive rate of return on invested isk, and there are materials required that must be imported wherever you manufacture. High sec has easy logistics to the markets to fill both needs, so why move an operation to null? To be attractive, null has to not only overcome the increased cost of logistics, but also the inconvenience (which, especially for a small guy without his own JF alt, hampers agility) and the risk.
I expect some things to happen more in null - t1 hulls and fuel blocks for local consumption, for example - but T2 is hampered by the double-wammy of lack of market and lack of key materials. Honestly, I'd love to be wrong. I'd love to see robust markets develop in null to justify import of the foreign goo, but the impediments to that go way beyond the scope of industry. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5242
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Posted - 2014.04.30 22:35:00 -
[488] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:What industrialists want, in real life or otherwise:
1. Cost certainty 2. Minimized risk for return (both in capital investment and getting shot at) 3. Minimizing non-productive time (you know, like what you are supposedly addressing with the UI changes)
No, Dinsdale. What real industrialists want is an opportunity to make a profit because they are better at what they do than the next chump. This is PvP writ large in the spreadsheets of the cluster.
If there is the opportunity to disrupt someone else's industry, people will do it. Some will do it for the jollies, others will do it because the cost of disrupting someone else's activity is less than the profit to be made from that disruption.
What industrialists want is simple:
- A dynamic market place which is observable, predictable, and preferably triggerable
- Ways to manage risk to self
- Ways to increase risk to others
Thus as an industrialist if you seek the conservative path that Dinsdale outlined, you will end up making a tiny profit in the chaotic seas of the market, while others who are braver will find massive profits (and losses) by pushing closer to the wind, surfing larger waves, or capsizing their competitors' boats.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
450
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Posted - 2014.04.30 22:37:00 -
[489] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:350125GO wrote: This change is very bad for the small industrialist/small corps, and especially bad for new players that may be interested in industry. Maybe not. Small corps and solo players tend to be rather nimble. at walking away fromt he game ... and yet the player base continues to grow, year after year... citation needed. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
451
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Posted - 2014.04.30 22:41:00 -
[490] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote: Thus as an industrialist if you seek the conservative path that Dinsdale outlined, you will end up making a tiny profit in the chaotic seas of the market, while others who are braver will find massive profits (and losses) by pushing closer to the wind, surfing larger waves, or capsizing their competitors' boats.
I see two ways to approach it, lower risk with higher capital investment to maximize profit through scale and higher risk with lower capital input but with bigger gains/losses. This is messing with the lower risk methods to an extent by introducing more variables.
When I say lower risk I mean in ROI. Those choosing the lower risk path are putting huge sums of isk on the line and are therefore taking huge risks too but in a different way |
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Optimo Sebiestor
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
253
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Posted - 2014.04.30 22:59:00 -
[491] - Quote
And we need this because?? |
Aria Jimbojohnson
University of Caille Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2014.04.30 23:03:00 -
[492] - Quote
So pretty much every dev response so far is basically "We're pushing out the bare minimum version that is functional and may iterate in the future". Really? I've come to expect CCP to halfass features, but one as big as industry? Halfassing such a huge part of the game and "maybe or maybe not" iterating on it later is shockingly bad. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
477
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Posted - 2014.04.30 23:04:00 -
[493] - Quote
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:And we need this because?? Because hiring coked out scientists and industrialists to use for a tiny portion of their meaningless lives and then discarding them to rehab facilities to eke out a few extra percent of profit is freaking cool. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
451
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Posted - 2014.04.30 23:10:00 -
[494] - Quote
Can I setup the rehab centres and fleece the empires?
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Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
2770
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Posted - 2014.04.30 23:16:00 -
[495] - Quote
I like the rest of the changes, which mostly move more toward a more understandable industry system that scales better with future growth of the EVE world and that sacrifices none of the depth of strategic choice in production.
This system, however, just strikes me as complexity for complexity's sake.
Is it CCP's design intention that absolutely all production of low margin, low production time, high material input products (such as tech 1 battleships) will have to chase around these teams or face their small margins dropping to less than zero? For those battleships that are presently profitable to build at all (say the Dominix), margins are a couple of percent. Dropping production costs under 'perfect' situations by 3% will mean that producing battleships without an ME team is a loss making proposition. Set the universe on fire - then sell the survivors ash. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content. If you want to mine in highsec, read www.minerbumping.com. |
Barton Breau
University of Caille Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2014.04.30 23:30:00 -
[496] - Quote
Querns wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:And we need this because?? Because hiring coked out scientists and industrialists to use for a tiny portion of their meaningless lives and then discarding them to rehab facilities to eke out a few extra percent of profit is freaking cool.
What are you, twelve? :)
Anyways, the most interesting part was at the end, the three "upgrades", without them, this is in danger of becoming a whack -a-mole mechanic, especially with any kind of organisational ability of player groups. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3153
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 23:31:00 -
[497] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Can I setup the rehab centres and fleece the empires?
Who needs rehab centres.
Biomass plants. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4236322 http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5244
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Posted - 2014.04.30 23:56:00 -
[498] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mara Rinn wrote: Thus as an industrialist if you seek the conservative path that Dinsdale outlined, you will end up making a tiny profit in the chaotic seas of the market, while others who are braver will find massive profits (and losses) by pushing closer to the wind, surfing larger waves, or capsizing their competitors' boats.
I see two ways to approach it, lower risk with higher capital investment to maximize profit through scale and higher risk with lower capital input but with bigger gains/losses. This is messing with the lower risk methods to an extent by introducing more variables. When I say lower risk I mean in ROI. Those choosing the lower risk path are putting huge sums of isk on the line and are therefore taking huge risks too but in a different way
Why wouldn't the people with the larger capital base also choose the higher risk option? Surely if you have lots of ISK you can put more horses in the high-stakes races and manage your risk by having lots of little things that you risk, rather than one big thing that you risk?
Contrast the two options when you are starting with the same capital base, otherwise it doesn't make sense. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5244
|
Posted - 2014.04.30 23:57:00 -
[499] - Quote
Querns wrote:Optimo Sebiestor wrote:And we need this because?? Because hiring coked out scientists and industrialists to use for a tiny portion of their meaningless lives and then discarding them to rehab facilities to eke out a few extra percent of profit is freaking cool.
Inferno, round 2. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2014.04.30 23:58:00 -
[500] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Kusum Fawn wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:350125GO wrote: This change is very bad for the small industrialist/small corps, and especially bad for new players that may be interested in industry. Maybe not. Small corps and solo players tend to be rather nimble. at walking away fromt he game ... and yet the player base continues to grow, year after year... oh really? cause what i see, is less and less player online...and the stats say i'm right
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Eurynome Mangeiri
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
5
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Posted - 2014.04.30 23:59:00 -
[501] - Quote
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:And we need this because?? cause CCP is bored and rather break things that are working rather to tackle real problems like bugs, pos, sov... |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
452
|
Posted - 2014.05.01 00:02:00 -
[502] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote: Why wouldn't the people with the larger capital base also choose the higher risk option? Surely if you have lots of ISK you can put more horses in the high-stakes races and manage your risk by having lots of little things that you risk, rather than one big thing that you risk?
Contrast the two options when you are starting with the same capital base, otherwise it doesn't make sense.
They are more risk averse and would prefer a lower % return with lower risk. The are the industrial/trader players who don't want the higher risk option. That is why many don't like the increasing number of variables in the industry gameplay. The more variables there are the less options remain in the lower risk trading area |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2872
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Posted - 2014.05.01 00:15:00 -
[503] - Quote
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:Mara Rinn wrote: Why wouldn't the people with the larger capital base also choose the higher risk option? Surely if you have lots of ISK you can put more horses in the high-stakes races and manage your risk by having lots of little things that you risk, rather than one big thing that you risk?
Contrast the two options when you are starting with the same capital base, otherwise it doesn't make sense.
They are more risk averse and would prefer a lower % return with lower risk. The are the industrial/trader players who don't want the higher risk option. That is why many don't like the increasing number of variables in the industry gameplay. The more variables there are the less options remain in the lower risk trading area
Further, CCP now has, quite literally, dozens of new levers to play with, constantly making huge impact by changing numbers by tiny amounts. That is ALSO massive risk for industrialists, as they try to adjust to some new paradigm, only to see radically altered with an overnight release, because their null buddies are not satisfied with the massive gifts handed to them now. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Arth Lawing
Penumbra Institute
13
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Posted - 2014.05.01 00:21:00 -
[504] - Quote
Quote:All jobs now require a workforce. All jobs automatically have regular workforce attached, so no special action will be required to start jobs We're not exactly sure how you capsuleers were able to build things without one before!
Robotic Assembly Modules
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Galphii
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
223
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Posted - 2014.05.01 00:26:00 -
[505] - Quote
Such nuanced and heavy dialog! Let's take a short break with a team-related comedy interlude.
Teams! X |
Valterra Craven
213
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Posted - 2014.05.01 00:30:00 -
[506] - Quote
War Kitten wrote:Valterra Craven wrote: BNC.E was able to max out 3 stations 24-7 with only a few people running t2 comp jobs. And that was just a small fraction of output that the entire alliance was capable of.
Those 3 stations were in 3 different systems right? It's relatively easy to find 3 stations in one system in highsec. That's 3x the bidding power if it is organized because all 3 stations can benefit from and focus on one team. The nullsec people have to bid on 3 teams to get all 3 stations producing with team bonuses.
Accept that now that doesn't matter since there are infinite slots. Had that been the case back then we would have just used one station given the volume of m3 we were moving around. |
Restodruid
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.05.01 00:34:00 -
[507] - Quote
Can someone explain to me why I would bid on teams if I can let other people do it for me and simply move my stuff over to their system once they won the bid? |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
108
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Posted - 2014.05.01 00:50:00 -
[508] - Quote
Restodruid wrote:Can someone explain to me why I would bid on teams if I can let other people do it for me and simply move my stuff over to their system once they won the bid?
Nothing, other than the bidders have have been building up stockpiles in an out of the way system in a highsec pocket in anticipation of capitalizing on their teams and have low use stations to crank out products. They also have hired pirates to camp the lowsec systems coming in so they can get products out and keep you away from the system.
Whether this is actually possible or profitable is another question.
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Fuzzy Monkei
Monkei Buisness
0
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Posted - 2014.05.01 00:55:00 -
[509] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:So, do I get that right: I bet on the Team and I win the Team and then everyone else can use my Team and doesn't need to pay money to me to use my Team. So I pay that others can use it? Or if you would prefer it the other way, you can be the leach on someone elses purchase.
Or you could do something unheard of in an MMO......collaborate, both bid on the same team to get it at much lower personal cost. However this will require the industrialists to actually TALK to each other!!!!! O The horrors of communicating in a multi-player game. We NEVER see fleets of hundreds or even thousands of ships fighting on each side, communicating with more than 1 or two people just can't be done.
This said I hope that the bids and bid histories will be clear and easy to understand so that you can verify if the bids where made (and you can wardec and murder them if they didn't) |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
5244
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Posted - 2014.05.01 00:55:00 -
[510] - Quote
Player-driven acquisition of teams?
Gives me a chance to peddle my Resurrection Men Storyboard again :P
I hope someone in CCP or CSM will gain some inspiration from this idea. The "elevator pitch" (what we used to call an "Executive Summary" or these days refer to as "The TL;DR") is as follows:
- Capsuleer gains intel about certain valuable human resources planet side
- Capsuleer commissions Dust Bunnies to secure those resources
- Secured resources can then be "uplifted" to Industry teams, or "processed" to become implants
PS: my drawing skills are pretty disgusting. Sorry for the pain those sketches will cause to your brain. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
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