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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 45 post(s) |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
160
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:35:00 -
[61] - Quote
Quintessen wrote:Two major concerns: 2) When a team arrives people will likely shift production to their specialties for that system? How is that not likely to produce an oversupply for all involved meaning that using a team actually means less profit and not more? One of my first instincts is going to be seeing if using teams actually hurts a local system. Put the team in low, null, or a WH.
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Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1473
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:36:00 -
[62] - Quote
Seems to me like there will be a big free rider problem here. If anyone can use the teams in a system, then why would I ever buy one? I guess because you are competing globally and it only applies to systems, so there is competition there, but I'm not sure people are going to plink down isk to get a benefit - especially if they can get that benefit from someone else's effort.
I'm not sure how this will play out over time. It seems like this will be a very niche benefit for null sec, where you can control who builds what, but in empire I don't get it. Seems like a private or corp/alliance auction system where only you get the benefits if won might be needed but then that will just allow larger entities from pushing out the smaller ones. Keep it open and you have free riders. We'll see I guess.
This will make the market much more dynamic, which i think is great. I was hoping teams was player generated though. Ie cooperative gameplay. This isn't it IMO. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
Rust Connor
Industrias PapaCapim
1
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:36:00 -
[63] - Quote
Random comments: 1) Legacy - "Legacy" sounds great but I'm affraid we could make a situation where rich people will get even richer and others can't compete.
2)Team ownership - "Team ownership" sounds cool but please dont put it on PI. Give a new set of skill for that! Maybe an academy on POS!
3) Tem example and cumulative bonus - You can have a team like this? - Small Ships(ME specialist 5),= -2.5% - Frigate (ME specialist 5) = -5% - Assault Frigate (ME specialist 5) = -10% Those bonus are cumulative? I'll pay 17.5% less material per assault frigate, for example?
4) Increase in complexity to find the best place. - All those changes.... Calculating the best place to produce is looking harder and impossible without some kinda of tool. I hope you are planning releasing an API to calculate everything because I dont want to manually check every system to balance specialist teams, ocupation, distance to trade hubs, ...
5) Bid snipping Cant you put a simple: increase time to X minutes if a bid is made when timer is less then X? So a bid must be the highest for at least X minutes.... |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
160
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:37:00 -
[64] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Seems to me like there will be a big free rider problem here. If anyone can use the teams in a system, then why would I ever buy one? I guess because you are competing globally and it only applies to systems, so there is competition there, but I'm not sure people are going to plink down isk to get a benefit - especially if they can get that benefit from someone else's effort.
I'm not sure how this will play out over time. It seems like this will be a very niche benefit for null sec, where you can control who builds what, but in empire I don't get it. Seems like a private or corp/alliance auction system where only you get the benefits if won might be needed but then that will just allow larger entities from pushing out the smaller ones. Keep it open and you have free riders. We'll see I guess.
I was hoping teams was player generated though. Ie cooperative gameplay. This isn't it IMO. This won't just benefit NS, it will benefit LS and WHs as most free loaders wont easily be able to set up any meaningful operation. So imo a very good change in this regard. |
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CCP SoniClover
C C P C C P Alliance
566
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:40:00 -
[65] - Quote
Quintessen wrote:Two major concerns:
1) How is this not simply going to go to whomever has the most coordinated effort to attract them and who already has the most money (major null-sec alliances).
2) When a team arrives people will likely shift production to their specialties for that system? How is that not likely to produce an oversupply for all involved meaning that using a team actually means less profit and not more? One of my first instincts is going to be seeing if using teams actually hurts a local system.
Valid concerns, the way to aim to address both is by having a lot of teams active. As there are only so many teams you need, lots of teams mean more people have access to them. As for people shifting production based on team availability, I don't think this will be a major issue, as this assumes you already have the blueprints and the logistic chain setup to take advantage of the new team. I don't think this will be the case all that often. |
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Yongtau Naskingar
Yongtau Naskingar Corporation
17
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:41:00 -
[66] - Quote
Quote:The team becomes immediately available for hire in the winning system. I can't send a few bits and bytes to my POS in system anymore, but a bunch of people travel without the help of a capsuleer halfway across the galaxy? Harumpf.
It seems to me like convoluted system that'll do very little in the end. Big alliances will just buy up the teams and that'll be the end of it. |
Olari Vanderfall
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
105
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:41:00 -
[67] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Olari Vanderfall wrote:Time saving is pretty much irrelevant for most items I can see you are not a competent industrialist by this statement.
I can see you don't have a concept of a real life. When my 10 run T2 BPC takes 12 hours or 13 doesn't matter. |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
236
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:42:00 -
[68] - Quote
Started reading the Devblog thinking Teams would be a something a small group of players could form to tackle more complicated tasks.
Left confused, but satisfied.
The idea still seems nice though, the PI stuff should just be added, it could be awesome. Baddest poster ever |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
405
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:42:00 -
[69] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Zifrian wrote:I was hoping teams was player generated though. Ie cooperative gameplay. This isn't it IMO. This won't just benefit NS, it will benefit LS and WHs as most free loaders wont easily be able to set up any meaningful operation. So imo a very good change in this regard. It looks like it has the potential to benefit any person, or group of people, that make something in one location for a period of time. I expect you'll see co-operative gameplay emerging from it and, unlike corps and alliances, it's a lot more flexible and provides much simpler safety measures.
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Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries Exiliar Syndicate
171
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:43:00 -
[70] - Quote
Ok, althought this sounds like something interesting, I must confess I was expecting CCP plans to finallz make industry a bit more group playing activity. Like when few players get together, they receive some manufacturing time or material bonus or so. I really hope CCP plans to also introduce teams made from players. It would definitelly make more sence a nd would be more fun. Please consider it. |
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Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
161
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:46:00 -
[71] - Quote
Olari Vanderfall wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Olari Vanderfall wrote:Time saving is pretty much irrelevant for most items I can see you are not a competent industrialist by this statement. I can see you don't have a concept of a real life. When my 10 run T2 BPC takes 12 hours or 13 doesn't matter. My friend, you are not a competent industrialist if you cannot see the value of time saving for manufacture limited BPs, for which there are a lot with much longer build times than the 13 hour example which you just picked out of thin air in an attempt to make your argument look valid. |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1474
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:46:00 -
[72] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Zifrian wrote:I was hoping teams was player generated though. Ie cooperative gameplay. This isn't it IMO. This won't just benefit NS, it will benefit LS and WHs as most free loaders wont easily be able to set up any meaningful operation. So imo a very good change in this regard. It looks like it has the potential to benefit any person, or group of people, that make something in one location for a period of time. I expect you'll see co-operative gameplay emerging from it and, unlike corps and alliances, it's a lot more flexible and provides much simpler safety measures. Yeah, we'll see. I'm a null player myself but I do most T2 in highsec. So I'll find out soon enough. I do like that different teams may upset expected profits from typical items. I'm just concerned about how robust the competition will be to prevent free ridership from having a negative effect on the positive, dynamic market effects I like. I'm also probably thinking too hard lol. GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
DEFANDER
Taurus Quantum Technologies Taurus Quantum Dynamics
9
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:47:00 -
[73] - Quote
I just have one question.
So... Were teams end up is based on who wins the auction, right ? Well let's say we have a system with 5 stations ( and all have manufacturing ), in witch there are over 100 players ( not accounts ) doing industry . And they are all biding on the same team ( or 60 of the 100 are biding on the same team ).
Then, how can say a corporation of 10 guys, that is doing "some" industry in a dead end system (that everyone forgot about) with no stations - less attractive to X% of the player base - using 1 or 2 towers.
That 10 member corp will have no chance in hell of wining a team auction, unless they are biding 10 times more per character then the 100 players ( say on average 300 characters ) that are living in the "big" system.
There should be a % based system. Say: - In the first system 300 bids totaling 400mil - In the other one 9 bids totaling 10mil
With the way i see it now, the 400mil total bid will win every time.
So, make it a % .. like 400mil / 300 bids ( individual bids ) = 1.33 AND 10mil / 9 individual bids = 1.11
Sure with there exact bids the 300 bidders will still win, but let's say they didn't bid 400mil, but 300 ( that's a 1.00 ratio ), or the 9 guys took it up to 50mil ( that would make it 5.56 ). Either way the 9 guys would win that team over.
This would also apply to some random dude living in a C1, that would like to attract say a AS +10% team in that C1, because he only manufactures Assault Frigates .
Just keep this all in mind.
EDIT: Also - VERY IMPORTANT - The current bit on any given team needs to be HIDDEN. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
438
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:49:00 -
[74] - Quote
It might be an idea to tie team capabilities to 'invention' i.e train team member by putting them through the invention process using the science skills that would be used in their specialty.. Successful invention boosts their ability, unsuccessful and you kick them out (they failed the exams, couldn't take inferno, spent to much time online playing the Earth space combat simulator game) |
Medalyn Isis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
161
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:50:00 -
[75] - Quote
DEFANDER wrote:I just have one question.
So... Were teams end up is based on who wins the auction, right ? Well let's say we have a system with 5 stations ( and all have manufacturing ), in witch there are over 100 players ( not accounts ) doing industry . And they are all biding on the same team ( or 60 of the 100 are biding on the same team ).
Then, how can say a corporation of 10 guys, that is doing "some" industry in a dead end system (that everyone forgot about) with no stations - less attractive to X% of the player base - using 1 or 2 towers.
That 10 member corp will have no chance in hell of wining a team auction, unless they are biding 10 times more per character then the 100 players ( say on average 300 characters ) that are living in the "big" system.
There should be a % based system. Say: - In the first system 300 bids totaling 400mil - In the other one 9 bids totaling 10mil
With the way i see it now, the 400mil total bid will win every time.
So, make it a % .. like 400mil / 300 bids ( individual bids ) = 1.33 AND 10mil / 9 individual bids = 1.11
Sure with there exact bids the 300 bidders will still win, but let's say they didn't bid 400mil, but 300 ( that's a 1.00 ratio ), or the 9 guys took it up to 50mil ( that would make it 5.56 ). Either way the 9 guys would win that team over.
This would also apply to some random dude living in a C1, that would like to attract say a AS +10% team in that C1, because he only manufactures Assault Frigates .
Just keep this all in mind. This is why they are spawning 4032 teams globally of varying qualities. |
Chris Thiesere
IonTek LLC
0
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:51:00 -
[76] - Quote
I'm super disappointed with this team stuff. The rest of the industrial changes are well needed and i can agree to most of them (grrr bpo @ pos). But this team stuff.. Seems just like a stupid isk sink to me. Why do i want to buff my competitors with the teams i spend isk for at the actions. They also seem to totally offset the intended changes with the scaling costs if we really 'act as a counter-balance to the cost scaling the presence of a good team can offset the increased cost in operating in an active system'. So the best teams will always be in jita, and everyone is happy building **** at 4-4?
Also newer industrial players have to depend on others buying them, and thus have to always move shop to systems with some of them. Total showstopper for me. |
Lilliana Stelles
1234
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:52:00 -
[77] - Quote
Will teams benefit invention? Higher quality bpcs please? Not a forum alt.-á |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1362
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:54:00 -
[78] - Quote
Quote:1) How is this not simply going to go to whomever has the most coordinated effort to attract them and who already has the most money (major null-sec alliances).
there is absolutely nothing wrong with that GRRR Goons |
DEFANDER
Taurus Quantum Technologies Taurus Quantum Dynamics
9
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:55:00 -
[79] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:DEFANDER wrote:I just have one question.
So... Were teams end up is based on who wins the auction, right ? Well let's say we have a system with 5 stations ( and all have manufacturing ), in witch there are over 100 players ( not accounts ) doing industry . And they are all biding on the same team ( or 60 of the 100 are biding on the same team ).
Then, how can say a corporation of 10 guys, that is doing "some" industry in a dead end system (that everyone forgot about) with no stations - less attractive to X% of the player base - using 1 or 2 towers.
That 10 member corp will have no chance in hell of wining a team auction, unless they are biding 10 times more per character then the 100 players ( say on average 300 characters ) that are living in the "big" system.
There should be a % based system. Say: - In the first system 300 bids totaling 400mil - In the other one 9 bids totaling 10mil
With the way i see it now, the 400mil total bid will win every time.
So, make it a % .. like 400mil / 300 bids ( individual bids ) = 1.33 AND 10mil / 9 individual bids = 1.11
Sure with there exact bids the 300 bidders will still win, but let's say they didn't bid 400mil, but 300 ( that's a 1.00 ratio ), or the 9 guys took it up to 50mil ( that would make it 5.56 ). Either way the 9 guys would win that team over.
This would also apply to some random dude living in a C1, that would like to attract say a AS +10% team in that C1, because he only manufactures Assault Frigates .
Just keep this all in mind. This is why they are spawning 4032 teams globally of varying qualities.
I still don't see it working. The very good teams will still be taken over by the huge majority.
And also, considering that there is no limitation on the number of team that can be "taken" by a specific system, who's to say thouse 4k team ( say 10% of them really good and worth biding on in a serious manner ) will still be monopolized by the majority.
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Hagan Sirius
Singularity Loop
0
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:59:00 -
[80] - Quote
What I missing is corporation based teams. There was said teams will be randomly created. What about some security measures. For example I dont want to give info about my activites to anyone. But will have the team members information about production? I guess they will. Where is a security. When I hire team of developers or specialized workers in real life I can force them to keep informations by some agreements and can punish them by law, but in game? Here I see problem. Most of industry guys its not interested about leaking internal informations about what are they doing etc. Ok, make public teams, why not, some freelancer can get hired for money, I am happy with that, but also, make available internal production teams. |
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virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine Yulai Federation
78
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Posted - 2014.04.30 12:59:00 -
[81] - Quote
Each team has four members, and each member has a specialty. The specialty can be broad, but with less bonus (for example Ship GÇô Small Class) or narrow and bigger bonus (like Ship GÇô Frigate). Team members cannot have the same specialty.
Does "Team members cannot have the same specialty." mean specialty can overlap if slightly different or not ? e.g. Using your example could one team have two members : 1st having - Ship GÇô Small Class 2nd having - Ship GÇô Frigate
and these two overlapping ( but not exactly the same ) specialties would both apply to someone manufacturing frigates at the same time?
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Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6
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Posted - 2014.04.30 13:00:00 -
[82] - Quote
It depends, with so many being spawned at such a rate and only so many possible combinations we may find the major centres actually have a decent spread of most the decent teams all the time. Dodixie may only have a 8% assault frig team and Jita a 9% one but the difference is pretty immaterial. I'll run the math on combinations/spawn rate when I get home. |
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Hello-There
438
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Posted - 2014.04.30 13:04:00 -
[83] - Quote
Will there be an option to create teams for your own use through your PI (effectively university scholarships and the like)?
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virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine Yulai Federation
78
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Posted - 2014.04.30 13:04:00 -
[84] - Quote
Are we going to see any player Eve skills based around teams?
e.g. Team Relations - boosts team member specialization bonuses by 10% per level so a team that gave a 5% bonus would give a 7.5% bonus at skill level 5?
Numbers etc... only an example not a proposal. My question is will there be Eve skills related to this? |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
236
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Posted - 2014.04.30 13:06:00 -
[85] - Quote
If teams have a minimum cost per Jump and teams can be used in Wormholes, how are bids from WH's calculated? Baddest poster ever |
Gamer4liff
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
80
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Posted - 2014.04.30 13:07:00 -
[86] - Quote
CCP SoniClover wrote:Quintessen wrote:Two major concerns:
1) How is this not simply going to go to whomever has the most coordinated effort to attract them and who already has the most money (major null-sec alliances).
2) When a team arrives people will likely shift production to their specialties for that system? How is that not likely to produce an oversupply for all involved meaning that using a team actually means less profit and not more? One of my first instincts is going to be seeing if using teams actually hurts a local system. Valid concerns, the way to aim to address both is by having a lot of teams active. As there are only so many teams you need, lots of teams mean more people have access to them.
I think you underestimate how much people will spend just to salt the earth and keep the good teams away from competitors, or just 'cause. 2.5% ME is no trivial matter.
If there are no factors creating an upper bound on how many teams can be in a system, there's a real high chance of an undue clustering.
Something that might help counteract this is turning the 10,000 isk per jump fee exponential, increasing the further away the team is starting from, and having that relocation fee subtracted from the total bid count for a system's total bid. Also should have a higher starting point, 10,000 isk is hardly a rounding error. It should be ensured that teams spawn in 0.0 systems more than empire systems because 0.0 is considerably more widespread.
This is certainly an interesting proposed system, I'll say that much, but it's fighting directly against the previous POS-manufacturing paradigm, where people were rewarded by staying put, and did not need to count on anybody else (at least in empire, obviously). You should expect a lot of resistance to this from cottage industry manufacturers in underutilized systems unless a way can be found to ensure they can secure teams too.
Also yeah, the person who sets out isk needs some sort of increased tangible benefit, something like a reduction in the % team cost per job up to a 20%-30% ceiling based on what % of the isk contribution a character made to secure the agent. |
Green Gambit
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
51
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Posted - 2014.04.30 13:07:00 -
[87] - Quote
Liner Xiandra wrote: Some of these variables can be controlled, but all together these will put any pricing predictions up in the air; how am I to determine that whatever I am building, is not going to be sitting in my hanger for the next 2 months because market prices swung?
Apply some actual skill and knowledge into the game?
The biggest problem with industry in Eve at the moment is that it's been reduced to click buttons in spreadsheet/app -> install jobs that you're told are most profitable.
The best thing coming out of the game changes is the industrial landscape will be constantly changing - giving the real industrialists who know their markets the possibility of making huge profits. |
Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
178
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Posted - 2014.04.30 13:07:00 -
[88] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Are there any plans to bring standings, both faction and corporation based into the system? Tax reduction? Faction Teams? Carthum Inventors? Anything like that? Is there anything at all planned for standings or are they made more and more obsolete?
+1
Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown |
DEFANDER
Taurus Quantum Technologies Taurus Quantum Dynamics
9
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Posted - 2014.04.30 13:08:00 -
[89] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:If teams have a minimum cost per Jump and teams can be used in Wormholes, how are bids from WH's calculated?
Closest wh entrance at the moment you bid.
Or the team have a special Super Ship they use to instantly travel across the universe. |
Berluth Luthian
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
187
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Posted - 2014.04.30 13:08:00 -
[90] - Quote
I'm still curious about how exactly teams might be generated.
I really like the idea that certain space (or even NPC corporations) could be the genesis of certain teams with specialties.
Then connecting LP store activity or agent activity to team generation with a bit of visibility could be interesting.
Research/School NPC corp stations could generate better research teams.
Industry/mining/manufacturing NPC corp stations wold generate better ME/TE module/rig teams.
Military NPC corps may focus on racial turret/hull specialty teams.
Players could then basically perform labor with an agent that then results in a new/additional team forming outside of the normal spawn cycle (do 100k LP worth of work for x faction and get a team).
Then something could be tied to the team quality being produced. The higher average standing of agent used to complete a mission, the higher the chance of a good team being made. |
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