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Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
40
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:01:00 -
[91] - Quote
Not only price but the skills (the ones you buy from the market) for a cloaky T3 greatly out time anything else that could handle a gate camp (and the skills for the camp itself). |
fRoDdEr's
Kleinrock Heavy Industries
4
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:01:00 -
[92] - Quote
Generals4 wrote:fRoDdEr's wrote:Price is never a justification. I do not have anything against people avoiding camps and getting out alive through use of tactics, skill and knowledge. You don't need skill to fly a cloaky t3. All you need to do is fit 1-2 Nanos and hit cloak a split-second after you click warp.
Now what happens if you have the fear of being caught, because your ship is not overpowered? You can always crash the gate and get away on the other side easily, this is what most other cloaky ships do and takes alot of effort to counter. Price is a justification. Better = more expensive. (mostly). What's the point of flying a 500 mill cloaky ship if it isn't superior to the 20-30 mill variant? the cloaky-nullifier T3 sucks at everything but safe travel and costs a buttload. It seems to be the least that it at least excels at that traveling aspect. But i know let's make faction frigates worse than their T1 variants. I mean why the hell should they be better, after all price doesn't justify anything, amiright?
And thats where you are wrong.
A Cloaky t3 has many uses above being able to travel and scout.
It can additionally probe (almost as good as covops), provide gang links or run missions/tank.
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RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
11
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:04:00 -
[93] - Quote
fRoDdEr's wrote:Generals4 wrote:fRoDdEr's wrote:Price is never a justification. I do not have anything against people avoiding camps and getting out alive through use of tactics, skill and knowledge. You don't need skill to fly a cloaky t3. All you need to do is fit 1-2 Nanos and hit cloak a split-second after you click warp.
Now what happens if you have the fear of being caught, because your ship is not overpowered? You can always crash the gate and get away on the other side easily, this is what most other cloaky ships do and takes alot of effort to counter. Price is a justification. Better = more expensive. (mostly). What's the point of flying a 500 mill cloaky ship if it isn't superior to the 20-30 mill variant? the cloaky-nullifier T3 sucks at everything but safe travel and costs a buttload. It seems to be the least that it at least excels at that traveling aspect. But i know let's make faction frigates worse than their T1 variants. I mean why the hell should they be better, after all price doesn't justify anything, amiright? And thats where you are wrong. A Cloaky t3 has many uses above being able to travel and scout. It can additionally probe (almost as good as covops), provide gang links or run missions/tank.
Price and Skills aren't a justification, but Capacity is. It's a ****** hauler by volume. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
878
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:11:00 -
[94] - Quote
A few hundred m^3 isn't a hauler meight |
Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises The Silent One's
109
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:11:00 -
[95] - Quote
Cloaky Dictior nullified t3's = encourages blobbing. Rewards blobbing.
Why? Because a 2-5 man gatecamp doesnt have a chance in hell to catch them, but if you have 200 people all huddled around the gate, you've got a much, much better chance.
Dictor nullified t3's are just another way of saying 'yes gatecamps suck, so lets break some other things to deal with it' |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
878
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:13:00 -
[96] - Quote
ahahah oh god i love the nonsense being put forward in this thread |
Generals4
Caldari State
356
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:18:00 -
[97] - Quote
fRoDdEr's wrote:
And thats where you are wrong.
A Cloaky t3 has many uses above being able to travel and scout.
It can additionally probe (almost as good as covops), provide gang links or run missions/tank.
Ok but if you take the Gang link one you nerf your tank + cargo space (so than it cannot be that glorified hauler as someone says, well sure it can still carry some stuff but even less). The scanning subsystem takes away one low slot (can't be used to get an agi increasing module). So yes it can be handy, which is its purpose (would be silly to have a slightly better covops at 20x the price) but as you can see you're always making sacrifices. Want it to be able to scan and provide gang links? Well you reduce your survivability. -Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
fRoDdEr's
Kleinrock Heavy Industries
5
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:34:00 -
[98] - Quote
Generals4 wrote:fRoDdEr's wrote:
And thats where you are wrong.
A Cloaky t3 has many uses above being able to travel and scout.
It can additionally probe (almost as good as covops), provide gang links or run missions/tank.
Ok but if you take the Gang link one you nerf your tank + cargo space (so than it cannot be that glorified hauler as someone says, well sure it can still carry some stuff but even less). The scanning subsystem takes away one low slot (can't be used to get an agi increasing module). So yes it can be handy, which is its purpose (would be silly to have a slightly better covops at 20x the price) but as you can see you're always making sacrifices. Want it to be able to scan and provide gang links? Well you reduce your survivability.
You dont since you would never be with hostiles on grid anyway. Throw ECCM on and a few nanos, you get through every camp, sit at SS practically unscannable and provide warpins for your main. |
Generals4
Caldari State
356
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:37:00 -
[99] - Quote
fRoDdEr's wrote:
You dont since you would never be with hostiles on grid anyway. Throw ECCM on and a few nanos, you get through every camp, sit at SS practically unscannable and provide warpins for your main.
There is where you're wrong, one small mistake or bad luck and you're toast. -Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Handsome Hussein
108
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:45:00 -
[100] - Quote
OP is just butt-hurt because he couldn't EZ-mode the last cloaky T3 that passed their way.
OP needs to not be butt-hurt and get over it. Leaves only the fresh scent of pine. |
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Amro One
One.
26
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:48:00 -
[101] - Quote
I think you should play a game called EVE and not EFT.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
880
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Posted - 2011.11.19 17:51:00 -
[102] - Quote
Amro One wrote:I think you should play a game called EVE and not EFT.
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration
155
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Posted - 2011.11.20 00:26:00 -
[103] - Quote
Price: 500 million or even a billion is not that much if you consider that you never loose it. In a sense, when you are not at any risk, it's free. A free pass for null sec... think about that. It's great. I can use my expensive low cargo hold hauler all I like and than just sell it were I so inclined. There's no risk... but why sell it? I have a stack of these invincible ships. THey pay for themselves many times over in the lack of losses...
1 second lock: Bullshi7. Once locked the Broadsword or whatever will take another sec at least to apply the warp disrupt... but you don't even need to think about that. There's usually lag to contend with. W/ one second of lag or even a fraction of a second you will never even get the lock. It's warp to and hotkey on top of each other... by the time a decloak registers on your end the server already has me cloaked. All GëíGêçGëí Ships | Many Odd GëíGêçGëí Items (+Drones) | <-- Links to showInfo in-game |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
41
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Posted - 2011.11.20 01:29:00 -
[104] - Quote
Gogela wrote: 1 second lock: Bullshi7. Once locked the Broadsword or whatever will take another sec at least to apply the warp disrupt... but you don't even need to think about that. There's usually lag to contend with. W/ one second of lag or even a fraction of a second you will never even get the lock. It's warp to and hotkey on top of each other... by the time a decloak registers on your end the server already has me cloaked.
Once locked a ship cannot cloak. So no rush to apply the scram (no more than for any other cruiser that is).
And lag can (and does) happen on the end of the T3 pilot as well, leaving them decloaked for longer than they think.
T3s can and do die to gate camps. Maybe it is luck for the campers or lack of skill for the T3 pilots, but that doesn't matter. it still happens. |
FluffyDice
StarFckers Inc. The Jagged Alliance
41
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Posted - 2011.11.20 01:47:00 -
[105] - Quote
I think any ship jumping within 14 ly of a bubble should be dragged into it as this method of transport is unbalanced and game breaking to whiners who like to sit 300km off bubbles with their thumbs up their butts. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
228
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Posted - 2011.11.20 01:58:00 -
[106] - Quote
@OP
Cry me a river.
You don't fly one
You can't afford to fly/use one
You don't have brains or are just another disturbed utopian unsatisfied guy
You suck.
Pick one of the above. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration
155
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Posted - 2011.11.20 04:05:00 -
[107] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Gogela wrote: 1 second lock: Bullshi7. Once locked the Broadsword or whatever will take another sec at least to apply the warp disrupt... but you don't even need to think about that. There's usually lag to contend with. W/ one second of lag or even a fraction of a second you will never even get the lock. It's warp to and hotkey on top of each other... by the time a decloak registers on your end the server already has me cloaked.
Once locked a ship cannot cloak. So no rush to apply the scram (no more than for any other cruiser that is). And lag can (and does) happen on the end of the T3 pilot as well, leaving them decloaked for longer than they think. T3s can and do die to gate camps. Maybe it is luck for the campers or lack of skill for the T3 pilots, but that doesn't matter. it still happens.
No. With lag the way it works is hits warp to and hits cloak immediately thereafter. Lag or not, those commands are given within a fixed amount of time... say half a second. The server receives those commands and executes them with that same temporal spacing. So lets get crazy and say my end is really bad and I have 5 seconds of lag, as the T3 pilot, for arguments sake. From the point of view of the server, I may hang out cloaked on the other side of the gate for an extra 5 seconds, but when it finally receives my commands they are still spaced out .5 seconds. So I immediately cloak. Now it doesn't matter to me, because regardless of the lag on my side, I only decloaked for .5 seconds. Now from the attackers client, it may take an extra .5 seconds to see me decloak at all due to lag, so even if they are johnny on the spot about hitting target, and even if they have some magical insta lock, that .5 seconds gave me the time to cloak from the servers perspective, so when the server sees that command to target I'm already cloaked. By this you see, for the purposes of the cloaky nullified t3 bouncing out on gate camps, lag is always on your side.
Follow? All GëíGêçGëí Ships | Many Odd GëíGêçGëí Items (+Drones) | <-- Links to showInfo in-game |
democrities
Zebra Corp BricK sQuAD.
0
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Posted - 2011.11.20 04:42:00 -
[108] - Quote
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14640032
Nuff said. |
Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2011.11.20 05:16:00 -
[109] - Quote
Somehow the op reminds me of this:
op being butthurt "You either need less science fiction or more medication."
"Or less medication and more ammo!" |
Cipher Jones
113
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Posted - 2011.11.20 06:18:00 -
[110] - Quote
fRoDdEr's wrote:Lord Ryan wrote:Please see signature. I can actually fly all four t3's. I dont use them as cloakies since there are other ships that suit my needs better, they have limitations though, which should also be the case with cloaky nullified t3#s.
So start by nerfing those ships first, obviously. It would make no sense to nerf the second most powerful ship in class.
See what happens when fat neckbeards try to ride little ponies? The ponies die. |
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Stan Smith
Remenent British Federation
21
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Posted - 2011.11.20 07:28:00 -
[111] - Quote
democrities wrote:http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14640032
Nuff said.
unkillable my arse
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Elrich Kouvo
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2011.11.20 08:28:00 -
[112] - Quote
Oh this thread is too rich lol. I never thought the t3 cruisers would hurt the bubble campers so badly. BTW, camper tears are the tastiest. This is why CCP should dump warp bubbles.... it makes players lazy. Its like "gravy" for the bubble camper brain. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
920
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Posted - 2011.11.20 12:16:00 -
[113] - Quote
Elrich Kouvo wrote:Oh this thread is too rich lol. I never thought the t3 cruisers would hurt the bubble campers so badly. BTW, camper tears are the tastiest. This is why CCP should dump warp bubbles.... it makes players lazy. Its like "gravy" for the bubble camper brain.
"please make it near impossible to tackle supercapitals" |
Ethidium Bromide
ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS
1
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Posted - 2011.11.20 13:28:00 -
[114] - Quote
fRoDdEr's wrote:
Armor t3's arent as bad as Shield t3's. But a Tengu with a nano or two warps out in about 4 seconds. No ship ingame even has a chance of uncloaking it unless hes already ontop of him, or by chance burning in his direction.
i take it that is the point of fitting a cov ops cloak and the nullifier.
unless the pilot is a complete idiot you should NOT be able to catch him!
only because you are a "oh look shiny bubble, me uber ganker with 50 friends! kill single carebear lol" player is no reason to start crying over the one ship you miss each week. |
chrisss0r
No.Mercy Merciless.
0
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Posted - 2011.11.20 14:24:00 -
[115] - Quote
It's interesting how many people respond to this with comments like "lololol learn to fly" and it kinda urges me to give me 2 cents.
This whole discussion has a lot of parallels with other discussions about balancing issiues and as usual the same effect shows:
If someone is effective or good at something he will always think it's because of his immense skill and abilities. People who were flying 12 km/s curses back in the nanodays were convinced the nly reason they were so effective was because they were extremely good pilots. Every complaint about nanos being overpowered would just result in "learn to fly lolol" comments.
Fast forward a bit and you will find the very same arguments for the supercaps. People in general just tend to do that and it's not eve related. No one who aces a test will ever admit that he was just lucky as **** etc.
Anyways with the t3s we get the same arguments and defenses as with those other examples i mentioned. The op presents a case for a ship that can cloak, avoid bubbles and align as fast as a helios (rolleyes) to be nigh impossible to catch and i must admit that i agree with the op.
the cloaky nullified t3 was the single most stupid thing ccp ever did for the following reasons:
- It was an extreme buff to botting. Before t3s you could catch botters if you put effort into it by putting up bubbles or logging off in their anomaly + timing their rewarp or relog. This is now impossible because t3s ignore bubbles. remember how botting suddenly became a big ******* problem once the nullified tengu was out there?
- The ability to avoid bubbles or to warp cloaked or to align in 3 seconds are all very useful by themselves. What makes cloaky nullified t3s a problem is that they can do ALL of the above. There is no tradeoff in a senso of "i can ignore bubbles but that makes me align slow" etc. History in eve has shown that if a ship is too good at a specialized role there is a good chance of a balancing issue
- The risk-versus-reward tradeoff is completely obsolete when it comes to t3-nullies. Ratting or missioning in lowsec/nullsec should be more risky and hence more rewarding than doing it in highsec. With t3s this is not true. A cloaky nullified t3 can still easily tank and blitz many lev 4 missions with close to no risk of being caught. While you may still be able to catch a t3 on a gate with extreme effort and luck it is not nigh but impossible to catch one on a station. I'm sure this will earn me a lot of "lololol learn to eve" comments but i don't care cause it's true.
- They don't sacrifice any multiplier role for their ability to escape/evade everything. A cloaky nullified ship does not sacrifice ability to probe, it does not lose any ability to tank rats and it does not lose any ability to boost their gang. And if you think sacrificing dps is the only thing that counts then you are a ******. Fights are almost never decided by the dps ships.
Just t conclude my wall of text: linking killmails doesnt prove or disprove anything. With any ship you will have retards disconnects or sheer luck. It's not like no vaga ever dies during the nanoage
Chris Terrible at eve
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Voralus
People of Random Nature Below Me.
0
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Posted - 2011.11.20 14:40:00 -
[116] - Quote
CCP! Our cheap-ass bubbles used to drag unsuspecting ships into our trap so we can overpower/kill him with very little effort have a weakness!
We can't pull these ships in and the pilots keep reminding us how we suck to be gatecamping pricks and give us the finger as they warp away without us being able to do anything.
/cry
Yeah, that's you.
T3s are TECH THREE. When I put on my cloaky nulli fit, I sacrifice DPS by ways of a BCU and missile bay, I sacrifice tank in the ways I don't get my resistance boosts, I sacrifice speed because I don't have my AB boosting module on.
With all the ships you can catch, you're all butthurt because there is ONE ship per race that can take away from your little one sided game? There is still risk in nullsec, there is still risk in traveling, and there is still risk in the game.
Heaven forbid someone can laugh at you when using cheap tactics.
Why does everyone look at one side of the coin and go "it sucks for me, so it should end"? |
Kyneska
RONA Midgard Academy RONA Directorate
3
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Posted - 2011.11.20 14:44:00 -
[117] - Quote
sounds powerfull. compleatly understand that people want to talk about it. also understand the people that use it and want to drown this thread in a sea of ****. |
Ghoest
7
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Posted - 2011.11.20 14:45:00 -
[118] - Quote
The OP is an angry noob who apparently has never flown the ships shes complaining about.
I mostly live in a cloaked and nullified T3. Its one of the gimpiest ships I have ever flown. I never fight in it.
It would be possible to catch me if you made the effort but the effort required would be huge huge. But the trade offs requires for such a safe ship are extreme. If you try to get DPS on it it will still be weak DPS but it will also be extremely vulnerable. The agility is bad, the tank will be nonexistant and it wont have any ewar - and it will still do less DPS than Some T1 cruisers. Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
fRoDdEr's
Kleinrock Heavy Industries
5
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Posted - 2011.11.20 14:53:00 -
[119] - Quote
Ghoest wrote:The OP is an angry noob who apparently has never flown the ships shes complaining about.
I mostly live in a cloaked and nullified T3. Its one of the gimpiest ships I have ever flown. I never fight in it.
It would be possible to catch me if you made the effort but the effort required would be huge huge. But the trade offs requires for such a safe ship are extreme. If you try to get DPS on it it will still be weak DPS but it will also be extremely vulnerable. The agility is bad, the tank will be nonexistant and it wont have any ewar - and it will still do less DPS than Some T1 cruisers.
EDIT: And the person who said you can effectively use a cloaked nullified T3 for ratting is a liar. I have tried all of them. The only one that sort of slightly works is a Proteus - and its horrible. Youre talking about 500 mill ship that kills rats slower than T1 cruiser. Total waste of time. Its much more profitable to rishk the bubbles and fly a Prophecy or risk everything and fly a Cane.
Just to make this real clear - chrisss0r is lying.
I think you should try fitting something else than Assault Launchers on your Tengu, also BCU's are better than WCS. |
chrisss0r
No.Mercy Merciless.
0
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Posted - 2011.11.20 14:58:00 -
[120] - Quote
Voralus wrote: With all the ships you can catch, you're all butthurt because there is ONE ship per race that can take away from your little one sided game? There is still risk in nullsec, there is still risk in traveling, and there is still risk in the game.
Heaven forbid someone can laugh at you when using cheap tactics.
Why does everyone look at one side of the coin and go "it sucks for me, so it should end"?
See and that's a big missconception. A lot of people here simply defend it because they are using them to great success and don't want them nerfed. So naturally you assume that everyone who wants them nerfed doesn't use them but see - that is just not true.
I fly t3 nullified cloaky ships like a baws all the time because they are a no brainer and like i pointed out: impossible to catch.
Just because i can also abuse some overpowered tactiv doesn't mean it's allright. I don't want a broken game and nullified t3s are breaking the game.
Nullified t3s especially because you can bot in them with zero zero zero risk.
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