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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
969
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Posted - 2014.05.06 20:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:Its role as an ore hauler was even gimped by the ability of freighters to drop enormous cans, then scoop them back up.
The freighter costs half as much and can move twice the ore.
I just don't know what CCP could do to make me siege my rorq in a rock cluster. We industrialists are notoriously risk averse.
NOTHING would bring the cloaky campers around faster than a rorq getting caught in a belt, and since there is NO DEFENSE to cloaky campers, hoping beyond hope that they stay away, is the #1 priority of null sec miners.
THIS! THIS! THIS! yet for a very strange odd reason ccp avoids the cloaky problem cause it may hurt their friends feelings, so this entire idea of feeding them kills pretty much sums up the dev's true intention.. play eve, purchase expensive ships, we'll flip the script on you and help the killers pop the ship.. then pretend to call it fun.. then deny the mechanics are broken cause in the real world this and that hogwash comparison.
Honestly, I don't think cloaky campers really get that many kills. Mainly it is used as a way to shut off all mining, and most ratting, in a solar system, with little to no effort.
If the cloaky camper had to reactivate the cloak every 15 minutes, so couldn't be afk for hours at a time, I wonder how much the online count would drop. Hundreds? Certainly not thousands.
I suspect there are far more ships lost to blue cyno than neut/red cloaky camper. Infiltration is still the FAR more effective means of getting kills, especially with the number of corps willing to accept newbs. I've been in a corp that had to fork over billions of ISK to repay blue losses because we let in a player that blue tackled or lit a cyno for a black ops strike.
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3567
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:59:00 -
[32] - Quote
Updating my ideas, valued below 0.02 ISK. I don't expect these to be good ideas.
With these changes, the Rorqual stands a chance to escape: * EWAR immunity. You need a HIC or a bubble to prevent it from jumping out. [Blops-proof] * At least Orca-level mining link bonus with the Industrial Core inactive. [Not self-pointed.] * 50% reduction in Cynosural Field Generator duration. [The point of a cavalry is to extract.]
Give the Rorqual the ability to stand its ground: * 7.5% bonus to fleet members' maximum structure hitpoints per level of Capital Industrial Ships. * 100% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per level of Capital Industrial Ships. * 10% bonus to drone tracking per level of Capital Industrial Ships. [WAG] * 20% bonus to drone MWD velocity per level of Capital Industrial Ships. [WAG] * Increase the size of the drone bay. It needs to hold more drones (even with the HP bonus), and a variety of drones.
Give the Rorqual a reasonable chance of survival with the Industrial Core active: * 75% bonus to hull resists. [My math may be wrong, but I was aiming for 90% with a DCU II.] * 30% bonus to shield resists. * 100% bonus to local shield boosting amount. * 50% reduction to local shield booster capacitor use. * Industrial Core cycle time reduced to one minute. * Heavy water usage reduction, or elimination. and * 56% reprocessing facilities [2% better than an Intensive Reprocessing Array.]
Other: * Additional high-slots: 3 mining links + capital tractor beam + capital shield transporter + cyno + utility. * Expanded corporate hangar. * Expanded ship hangar. * Expanded ore hangar.
Just throwing these out there: * New module: Industrial Bridge Generator I. Can bridge: Industrial, Mining Frigate, Mining Barge, Exhumer, Transport, Freighter. * Expanded fuel bay. [For bridging.] The Rorqual is a mining fleet vessel, so it should be able to move mining fleets around. |
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
284
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:37:00 -
[33] - Quote
first, i think removing the mining bonus from the industrial core altogether would go a long way to making these more usable in belts. just let them have the link bonus without going into siege mode. they don't have a combat role, so it makes little sense to encourage their deployment in harm's way. this also means a rorq pilot could be in belt, but be constantly aligned to a pos or station while still giving good bonuses and scooping cans at range.
secondly, i think the align time could be trimmed a bit, to help with some gtfo when uninvited guests show up.
finally, some type of EWAR immunity (as Tau mentioned above) or even extended range on an EMC burst would help in tight spots. |
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
12
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Posted - 2014.05.07 00:30:00 -
[34] - Quote
Iosue wrote:first, i think removing the mining bonus from the industrial core altogether would go a long way to making these more usable in belts. just let them have the link bonus without going into siege mode. they don't have a combat role, so it makes little sense to encourage their deployment in harm's way. this also means a rorq pilot could be in belt, but be constantly aligned to a pos or station while still giving good bonuses and scooping cans at range.
secondly, i think the align time could be trimmed a bit, to help with some gtfo when uninvited guests show up.
finally, some type of EWAR immunity (as Tau mentioned above) or even extended range on an EMC burst would help in tight spots.
I disagree cause with that you're pretty much killing the orca's function. no removal of the indy core cause that takes the heart of the rorq out of it I mean really removal its only module? no hec no, although you touched up on it abit.. how come folks assume warping in that fat beast is just as fast as the AB/MWD 10s warp trick.. its not.. these fat boys/girls shouldn't even be close to a belt.
if they want it in a belt, then they should remove the restrictions and allow them in high sec. |
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
284
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Posted - 2014.05.07 03:14:00 -
[35] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:I disagree cause with that you're pretty much killing the orca's function. no removal of the indy core cause that takes the heart of the rorq out of it I mean really removal its only module? no hec no, although you touched up on it abit.. how come folks assume warping in that fat beast is just as fast as the AB/MWD 10s warp trick.. its not.. these fat boys/girls shouldn't even be close to a belt.
if they want it in a belt, then they should remove the restrictions and allow them in high sec.
the orca still has plenty of function in hi sec. besides, i'm not advocating removal of the industrial core, i just don't think we need to have the link bonuses tied to the core. the core could still be used for compression, or possibly another role. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
614
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Posted - 2014.05.07 12:53:00 -
[36] - Quote
No way I'll put a Rorq into a belt, even if the align time gets trimmed. |
EvilIsMyName
Exploitation Industrial Group Gold Star Alliance
7
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Posted - 2014.05.07 13:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
Personally, I would like to see the Rorqual be able to fly in high sec, similar to jump freighters.
I think Tau had some great recommendations, but since CCP is removing the exclusive ability of ore compression from the Rorqual in Kronos, they should introduce a new series of Industrial Cores that would give the Rorqual the ability to do a variety of Industrial activities.
They could have a refining core, and a variety of manufacturing cores that would expand the ability and usage of the Rorqual.
I think I share everyones opinion that CCP's goal of having the Rorqual in belts is unrealistic, I can't imagine a change that could implore me to put my rorqual online in a belt. Even removing the ability to boost off-grid would just make me switch to an Orca for on-grid boosting. |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2584
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Posted - 2014.05.07 15:31:00 -
[38] - Quote
The rumors I heard was that it will get huge offensive, defensive, and remote shield transfer bonuses in its deployed mode. A rorqual plus skiffs will be able to survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive, including completely tanking most light roaming gangs, and will have the drone firepower to "punch back" as Fozzie said of the new skiff. Gangs of Blops BS are going to want to have their hospital Sin with them.
This makes sense, as Fozzie did say in his presentation "you will WANT to put this in a belt." "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers
191
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Posted - 2014.05.07 16:22:00 -
[39] - Quote
Batelle wrote:The rumors I heard was that it will get huge offensive, defensive, and remote shield transfer bonuses in its deployed mode. A rorqual plus skiffs will be able to survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive, including completely tanking most light roaming gangs, and will have the drone firepower to "punch back" as Fozzie said of the new skiff. Gangs of Blops BS are going to want to have their hospital Sin with them.
This makes sense, as Fozzie did say in his presentation "you will WANT to put this in a belt."
This does make sense - I wonder if they will go down the way where the real option might be to deploy multiple Rorqs (hmm... stacking mining bonuses when on grid?) Which would make the deployment of ginormous mining fleets a more calculate risk (rather than a gank me now situation!)
Tau Cabalander wrote: * New module: Industrial Bridge Generator I. Can bridge: Industrial, Mining Frigate, Mining Barge, Exhumer, Transport, Freighter. * Expanded fuel bay. [For bridging.] The Rorqual is a mining fleet vessel, so it should be able to move mining fleets around.
This - is an excellent suggestion. Give mining fleets mobility and the ability to survive and you might just see them out there a bit more. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
614
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Posted - 2014.05.07 17:06:00 -
[40] - Quote
Batelle wrote:The rumors I heard was that it will get huge offensive, defensive, and remote shield transfer bonuses in its deployed mode. A rorqual plus skiffs will be able to survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive, including completely tanking most light roaming gangs, and will have the drone firepower to "punch back" as Fozzie said of the new skiff. Gangs of Blops BS are going to want to have their hospital Sin with them.
This makes sense, as Fozzie did say in his presentation "you will WANT to put this in a belt."
Survive what long enough? That's the problem with drops. You have no idea what's coming. Quite a few fly with both regular and covert cyno too. Could be a Titan nearby. Who knows.
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Robert Morningstar
Morningstar Excavations LTD Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
69
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Posted - 2014.05.07 19:04:00 -
[41] - Quote
The could allow for dual siege both industry core and bastion mode at the same time apply the range bonus to its primary weapons (drones) |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3572
|
Posted - 2014.05.07 19:42:00 -
[42] - Quote
Robert Morningstar wrote:The could allow for dual siege both industry core and bastion mode at the same time apply the range bonus to its primary weapons (drones) I think this is easier to implement:
Change Rorqual from: 5% bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman gang links per level when in deployed mode to 3% bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman gang links per level [Orca-class bonus.] 2% bonus to effectiveness of mining foreman gang links per level when in deployed mode
It is also small buff from 25% to 26.5% for the sake of simpler math. |
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
285
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Posted - 2014.05.07 20:53:00 -
[43] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Survive what long enough? That's the problem with drops. You have no idea what's coming. Quite a few fly with both regular and covert cyno too. Could be a Titan nearby. Who knows.
this exactly. imo, the rorq needs to be pushed toward evasion, not fighting. it makes no sense to turn this into a combat ship, there are plenty of other ships that can handle offense/defense. besides, one hot drop with a few supers will completely nullify any combat bonus these guys get. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
974
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Posted - 2014.05.07 20:55:00 -
[44] - Quote
Batelle wrote:The rumors I heard was that it will get huge offensive, defensive, and remote shield transfer bonuses in its deployed mode. A rorqual plus skiffs will be able to survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive, including completely tanking most light roaming gangs, and will have the drone firepower to "punch back" as Fozzie said of the new skiff. Gangs of Blops BS are going to want to have their hospital Sin with them.
This makes sense, as Fozzie did say in his presentation "you will WANT to put this in a belt."
My thoughts are: 1) Need to make it support a mining fleet. 2) Not overpowered for non-mining fleets.
My idea will take code change to allow fleet bonuses based on ship type being effected.
When core active, bonus to mining links (same as now) When core active, bonuses to siege links (shield resists, boost/xfer amount, cap use) BUT only for mining ships (over powered if not applied only to mining ships). When core active, bonuses to capital and medium shield xfer range, duration and cap usage. Immune to EWAR when core active (no jams, damps)
For non-mining ships, siege links work as normal.
So, it is basically a triage carrier without fighters (10 sentry drones equivalent (5 x double damage)), designed to rep cruisers, with extra shield link bonus to minng ships.
The point would be to have 2 rorqs in the belt. One providing mining boosts and the other providing shield link bonuses. If you get attacked, they both can provide a couple medium shield xfer to (resist boosted) mining ships, local capital shield boost and capital shield xfer to each other.
If we can't get rid of cloaky campers, at least give the mining fleet a chance against all but the largest attack (if they have a couple rorqs available... more, even better). 1) bonuses to siege links mean massive firepower needed to alpha (high resists). 2) bonused local and remote rep mean massive sustained damage needed to overcome shield boost. 3) damage output equivalent of 20 sentry drones, added to mining fleet drones (skiffs 1.5x damage) means a heck of a counter punch.
And no... I'm not dropping one of the medium remote shield xfer for a cap tractor. The mining ships will have to bring the ore to me. With 2 rorq in belt, should not be too much of an issue.
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
975
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Posted - 2014.05.07 20:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:Batelle wrote:The rumors I heard was that it will get huge offensive, defensive, and remote shield transfer bonuses in its deployed mode. A rorqual plus skiffs will be able to survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive, including completely tanking most light roaming gangs, and will have the drone firepower to "punch back" as Fozzie said of the new skiff. Gangs of Blops BS are going to want to have their hospital Sin with them.
This makes sense, as Fozzie did say in his presentation "you will WANT to put this in a belt." Survive what long enough? That's the problem with drops. You have no idea what's coming. Quite a few fly with both regular and covert cyno too. Could be a Titan nearby. Who knows.
For null, cyno jammer.
For low... yeah, don't do it unless you have massive firepower ready for counter hot drop.
So, the answer is, in null, long enough for a large black ops battleship or stealth bomber drop, or for low sec, for your massive-er counter hot drop fleet.
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
975
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Posted - 2014.05.07 21:03:00 -
[46] - Quote
Iosue wrote:Victoria Sin wrote:Survive what long enough? That's the problem with drops. You have no idea what's coming. Quite a few fly with both regular and covert cyno too. Could be a Titan nearby. Who knows.
this exactly. imo, the rorq needs to be pushed toward evasion, not fighting. it makes no sense to turn this into a combat ship, there are plenty of other ships that can handle offense/defense. besides, one hot drop with a few supers will completely nullify any combat bonus these guys get.
I do not think that is the point of the desire to get it into belt.
Get it into belt so it can avoid the reason we want to get it into belt? Seems unlikely they will go in this direction.
Supers can't get into cyno jammed system, so the direction has to be: able to keep itself and mining fleet alive long enough for counter attack, in cyno jammed system, where risks are black ops and roaming gangs.
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3183
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Posted - 2014.05.07 21:12:00 -
[47] - Quote
Hmmmmm. Rorqual with a grid wide cyno jammer while it's sieged? Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
615
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Posted - 2014.05.07 21:17:00 -
[48] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Hmmmmm. Rorqual with a grid wide cyno jammer while it's sieged?
Cyno in off grid, warp to Rorqual, view the fit on zkillboard at your leisure. |
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
286
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Posted - 2014.05.07 22:27:00 -
[49] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:I do not think that is the point of the desire to get it into belt.
Get it into belt so it can avoid the reason we want to get it into belt? Seems unlikely they will go in this direction.
Supers can't get into cyno jammed system, so the direction has to be: able to keep itself and mining fleet alive long enough for counter attack, in cyno jammed system, where risks are black ops and roaming gangs.
personally, the reason i'd put my rorq in a belt would be to pick up ore and provide boosts (assuming they remove off-grid boosting as a part of these changes). i have no desire to use it as some kind of last-man standing defense-base to stand my ground while surrounded by a bunch of barges and exhumers.
furthermore, i can't imagine what kind of push back they'll get from small gang and blops pilots when they find out their shiny pew machines won't be able to stand up against a fleet of mining barges, lol. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3575
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Posted - 2014.05.08 00:59:00 -
[50] - Quote
Rorqual + Mobile Scan Inhibitor + Mobile Cynosaural Inhibitor
I still carry a Gallente control tower. |
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Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
591
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Posted - 2014.05.08 05:07:00 -
[51] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:the buffs that would make it worth putting a rorqual in a belt would need to be insane I agree. if they don't add much bonus you aren't really gaining anything but risk bring that monstrosity into a belt. -á-á- remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not-á "afk" cloaking-á-
[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Sir Gankal0t
Fortuna Heavy Industries Viral Society
21
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Posted - 2014.05.08 10:24:00 -
[52] - Quote
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:Fozzie & Rise talked about the Orca & Rorqual briefly and in non-specific terms in the module & ship rebalancing talk. It was an informative talk on all the other stuff they mentioned as opposed to the DUST keynote I just watched which was very poor. Proposed changes to modules sounded interesting.
The changes to the Orca & Rorqual won't happen in the summer update so I guess it will happen in the winter one. Regarding the Rorqual they want it to be able to be used outside of the POS shield. It will still have the ore compression role and will have vastly increased EHP/resistances/something else(?) to enable it to survive in-belt. I don' t think anything more specific than that was said.
There won't be a winter expansion anymore we will receive updates around every 10 weeks that was said on one of the keynotes by ccp seagull
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
986
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Posted - 2014.05.08 15:58:00 -
[53] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Hmmmmm. Rorqual with a grid wide cyno jammer while it's sieged?
Game breaking as I could put the rorq in a cap fight to block the other side from dropping reinforcements. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
986
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Posted - 2014.05.08 16:05:00 -
[54] - Quote
Sir Gankal0t wrote:Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:Fozzie & Rise talked about the Orca & Rorqual briefly and in non-specific terms in the module & ship rebalancing talk. It was an informative talk on all the other stuff they mentioned as opposed to the DUST keynote I just watched which was very poor. Proposed changes to modules sounded interesting.
The changes to the Orca & Rorqual won't happen in the summer update so I guess it will happen in the winter one. Regarding the Rorqual they want it to be able to be used outside of the POS shield. It will still have the ore compression role and will have vastly increased EHP/resistances/something else(?) to enable it to survive in-belt. I don' t think anything more specific than that was said. There won't be a winter expansion anymore we will receive updates around every 10 weeks that was said on one of the keynotes by ccp seagull
Every 10 weeks would be 5 a year. It is 10 a year.
The monthly drops will most likely be DB changes, like ship rebalance and very small code changes . Major rewrite stuff will still be in the 2 big releases. Probably the reason 10 vs. 12 is no monthly drop the month before a big release. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
3928
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Posted - 2014.05.08 16:10:00 -
[55] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:350125GO wrote:Weaselior wrote:the buffs that would make it worth putting a rorqual in a belt would need to be insane They'd be more likely to change it's role than to give it buffs. tell me the role that involves putting a 2b capital ship in a belt that is not insane
People put 2b isk ships in Anomalies ALL THE TIME.
Ratting Carriers are very common.... Blingy Nightmares, Machariels, Marauders, etc, etc, etc...
The main difference is, the above ships generally don't enter a 5-minute siege cycle to PvE. Alter the siege behavior of the Rorqual to be less of a sitting target, and it can see use.
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
986
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Posted - 2014.05.08 16:10:00 -
[56] - Quote
Iosue wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:I do not think that is the point of the desire to get it into belt.
Get it into belt so it can avoid the reason we want to get it into belt? Seems unlikely they will go in this direction.
Supers can't get into cyno jammed system, so the direction has to be: able to keep itself and mining fleet alive long enough for counter attack, in cyno jammed system, where risks are black ops and roaming gangs. personally, the reason i'd put my rorq in a belt would be to pick up ore and provide boosts (assuming they remove off-grid boosting as a part of these changes). i have no desire to use it as some kind of last-man standing defense-base to stand my ground while surrounded by a bunch of barges and exhumers. furthermore, i can't imagine what kind of push back they'll get from small gang and blops pilots when they find out their shiny pew machines won't be able to stand up against a fleet of mining barges, lol.
Yes, but I'm thinking from the dev point of view and what they plan to result from moving the rorq into a belt. I suspect they want belt fights, not a rorq that can quickly warp away as soon as a non-blue appears in local.
So, I'm approaching it from a point of view of what I would need to put my rorq in harms way for a belt fight sue to a cloaky camper being in system. The answer is that It would need to be able to keep itself and the exhumes alive while dishing out a significant counter punch and staying alive long enough for counter-attack.
The problem, I guess, is that what I'd want would mean there still wouldn't be fights because the attackers would most likely lose big time. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
987
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Posted - 2014.05.08 16:18:00 -
[57] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Weaselior wrote:350125GO wrote:Weaselior wrote:the buffs that would make it worth putting a rorqual in a belt would need to be insane They'd be more likely to change it's role than to give it buffs. tell me the role that involves putting a 2b capital ship in a belt that is not insane People put 2b isk ships in Anomalies ALL THE TIME. Ratting Carriers are very common.... Blingy Nightmares, Machariels, Marauders, etc, etc, etc... The main difference is, the above ships generally don't enter a 5-minute siege cycle to PvE. Alter the siege behavior of the Rorqual to be less of a sitting target, and it can see use.
The pimp BS align and warp to POS pretty safely. The carriers can jump to jump beacon in well protected system where PvP fleets stage.
As you point out, it is the 5 min lock-down for boosts that is the Rorq's problem.
AND, no one does any of that with a claoky camper, so if the rorq in belt is intended to be the counter to cloaky campers, simply removing the siege to get bonuses is not going to work. |
Victoria Sin
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
617
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Posted - 2014.05.08 16:27:00 -
[58] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote: As you point out, it is the 5 min lock-down for boosts that is the Rorq's problem.
In my experience 7 seconds is enough time to GTFO as usually they're in the next system. If they're already in your system it's probably too late. So the only way I'd put a Rorqual into a belt is if it gave bonuses without siege and could align and warp in 7 seconds or fewer (like my Mackinaws can).
With respect to hot-drops as I said before, there's nothing to counter because you don't know what's being dropped. It could be anything from 5 bombers to 50 supers. There's no strategy for defending your Rorqual from a hot-dropper that doesn't involve GTFO in my opinion. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3577
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Posted - 2014.05.08 17:14:00 -
[59] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote:As you point out, it is the 5 min lock-down for boosts that is the Rorq's problem. In my experience 7 seconds is enough time to GTFO as usually they're in the next system. If they're already in your system it's probably too late. So the only way I'd put a Rorqual into a belt is if it gave bonuses without siege and could align and warp in 7 seconds or fewer (like my Mackinaws can). With respect to hot-drops as I said before, there's nothing to counter because you don't know what's being dropped. It could be anything from 5 bombers to 50 supers. There's no strategy for defending your Rorqual from a hot-dropper that doesn't involve GTFO in my opinion. That's why I suggested that self-pointing be optional, with additional benefits for those that take the risk.
Plus, the Industrial Core cycle time be reduced to 1 minute, like bastion. Of course Heavy Water fuel consumption would have to be adjusted, though I'd really like to see it just removed. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3577
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Posted - 2014.05.09 05:40:00 -
[60] - Quote
FYI, if you have a mystery code from the collectors edition, go collect you Rorqual ORE Edition BPC from the voucher center
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