Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
548
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 11:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
I feel as if maybe Ollie Rundle, and likely a great many others, have quite a few misunderstandings. I wanted to comment on something said in this thread but I'd rather not derail it further. It's bad enough for thread derailments that we of the Foundations post in threads at all. Even when we don't post, Nation somehow finds a way to derail threads.
I will be responding to this post and any follow up questions in this thread. Try to quarantine the discussion to here.
Ollie Rundle wrote: The pleasing part was that you have dispensed with the euphemism and rhetoric scattered through your previous attempts to defend Kuvakei's vision as anything less than cluster-wide enslavement to his own meglomaniac whims. It is a refreshing and welcome change.
Then please allow me to disappoint you, because I disagree with what you say. I think you misunderstood my words. I don't consider the aims of Nation to be Megalomaniacal at all. Seeking control over the destiny of Humanity is a very human thing to do. The Gallente wish to spread Democracy. The Caldari will own everything and run it like a business. The Amarr wish existence to bend a knee reverently before their Lord. If Nation is meglomaniacal then we are in fine company. We just vision of how to direct Humanity's future.
Ollie Rundle wrote:All the defense of humanity sophistry you've carried on with in the past falls apart when it becomes clear that the man you've raised up as humanity's last great hope would torch even the most able of his loyalists for daring to assist in his force's regular operational goals.
I'm not quite sure you're making much sense here. You paint it like an uncaring force smiting his helpers. When in reality if I am needed to assist in an Incursion zone it would be made clear to me and we would be sheltered in our assistance. This has been done in the past and is very well documented when the Foundations flew under Nation's banner during the initial resurgence. These days, however, we are directed elsewhere. If we are in an Incursion zone unrequested then we are in violation of the directives we have been given.
We would be treated the same if we were State loyalists trespassing in secure combat facilities. Take any hardcore dedicated State Militia pilot, put them into one of the Caldari Mass Driver faciltiies in low-sec Placid, see how long they last. I know this from experince because the first time I found one I wasn't even in the Foundations and was, and still am, highly regarded by the Caldari Navy. And yet they locked me up and told me to leave via inbound missiles. You keep acting like Nation is different than the other empires, I don't see this in practice.
Ollie Rundle wrote: If I am to be anyone's dog, I would prefer a master that rewards loyalty and sacrifice with a scratch behind the ear rather than a bullet.
Loyalty is rewarded. I have seen the face of Humanity's future. I don't know if it's possible to bring everyone with us but I will try until I no longer exist and my infomorph data is purged from the galaxy.
And by the way when I say things like Slave and His Vision, which you seemed to jump on in your reply, I mean this through the lexicon of Nation. His Vision was the initial vision that launched Nation, decades before my birth. Now it is the vision of many, not just one man. A goal of a unified Humanity without barriers of race, country, religion, or other harmful self-inflicted meaningless divisions. The scientists can discover. The artists can design. The singers can compose. Lacking most restrictions that traditional empire culture places.
And when I say I am, or we are in the case of the Foundations, slaves I do not mean in the Amarrian way which seems to be the traditional mental image. Nor do I mean in the True Slave way due to my lack of membership in Nation. By the word Slave I mean I am compelled to do that which I do. Even before the Foundations, I was driven to this Vision. I could not have changed my destiny before, or now.
Our destiny must spawn havoc in the name of preserving a future life, do not weep for us, or fear the path that we've chosen. What we do now we do for the survival of our species. We will rescue us from ourselves.
It should come to pass that the fire in the depth of our souls returns those who would defy us to the hell from whence the came, for there can be no other destiny but our own. |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
161
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 12:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:I have seen the face of Humanity's future. So has Nauplius, apparently. Plus a few billion others. |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
549
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 12:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bryen Verrisai wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:I have seen the face of Humanity's future. So has Nauplius, apparently. Plus a few billion others.
I wish them the best of luck. I would rather at least one visionary succeed than none. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
1511
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 14:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Personally, I've found a glass of vodka and self-belief, better remedies for that encroachment of existential crisis than any faith in God, Prophets, Messiahs, waving of flags, ideology, or professions of loyalty to one group or another.
Sometimes I think Kuvakei recognizes the essential nihilism in being an infomorph and capsuleer. However it still remains to be seen as to whether we are nothing more than a primordial force of self-dissolution and personal annihilation, or if like the mythological Ourobouros we must first devour ourselves before creating anew.
A simpler answer though might just be, if Nation stopped eating all those babies, you'll be better received in public. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
4604
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 15:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
The opinions of anyone who serves a Nation named after its own founder and honestly believes that it isn't an exercise in vanity and self-deification can safely be dismissed without further question.
I mean, obviously, Nation supporters are invariably damaged beyond hope of repair, so they aren't going to quit their ultimately doomed project, but I'd at least like them to be honest about that project's intentions. Mane 614
|
Ollie Rundle
167
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 15:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Well that was certainly a desperately superficial attempt to re-cast your own words in a better light.
Ollie Rundle wrote:I will give you this, Miss Polehvia - at least you did not follow suit and take the tenuous position of feigning ignorance over the worth of either you or your fellow loyalists to Nation proper. That you can admit you function in the same manner as dutiful hounds at the beck and call of a master who can not recognize your obedience or unquestioning loyalty is a pleasant revelation.
Evi Polevhia wrote:I know. Weird, huh? Almost as if we admit we are Slaves to His Vision or something. We should make a public note about that. Maybe list it in a title. I understand. You were attempting to be pithy. In doing so, you inadvertently admitted a truth you did not mean to.
Simply because you capitalise some of those words or claim that they are part of some secret and misunderstood 'Nation lexicon' does nothing to change their actual meaning. You are a slave - in the only sense that matters - to one man's whims.
Evi Polevhia wrote:You paint it like an uncaring force smiting his helpers. Paint it? Not at all. It's a simple reality that we both seem to acknowledge as factually correct. Here is the core of it:
Evi Polevhia wrote:Loyalty is rewarded. Were you to attempt to demonstrate your expertise in shield transfer arrays to the benefit of Sansha Kuvakei's forces in an incursion zone you would be locked and fired upon by those same forces in short order.
If this singular truth of how Kuvakei values the most loyal and able of his capsuleer followers undermines your faith in him so much that you are compelled to post a rambling defense of his oversight then so be it, but you have my pity - it seems you may have been hoodwinked as to the nature of whatever rewards await you in his service. -á |
Sofia Roseburn
Verdant Inquiries Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
147
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 16:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
So basically the entire basis of your pitiful attempt at a counter-point is "well if you're claiming to be a supporter of Nation then why don't you go join them".
If you can't understand the benefits of a capsuleer remaining as part of a pseudo-independent entity even when offering your services to another individual then you really don't deserve the pilots license that you have. If only we had more people like Launette Vylier. |
Deitra Vess
S.E.B.I.E.S.T.O.R.
5
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 17:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ollie Rundle wrote: Were you to attempt to demonstrate your expertise in shield transfer arrays to the benefit of Sansha Kuvakei's forces in an incursion zone you would be locked and fired upon by those same forces in short order.
If you were the aggressor in a warzone and someone you didn't know locked on to you without warning wouldn't you do the same?Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're loyal or anything, but still... |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
551
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 17:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ollie Rundle wrote: You are a slave ... to one man's whims.
You have spoken so clearly the line which best illustrates how severe the ignorance is among Outsiders to our methods and relations. Master Kuvakei is, for lack of a better term, revered because of what he started. I've said it before and I will say it again. I do not actually think that man still exists in the form he had at the start. Do you understand what I mean when I've spoken of Nation's Unity? There is no one man in Nation any more. Not for Kuvakei. Not for Ahvar. Not for any of them.
Ollie Rundle wrote: Were you to attempt to demonstrate your expertise in shield transfer arrays to the benefit of Sansha Kuvakei's forces in an incursion zone you would be locked and fired upon by those same forces in short order.
Once again I will state. Take any State loyal Capsuleer, put them in an Osprey, and have them warp into a Caldari Navy secure military operational area. Judge their lifespan in seconds. Once you put away the stop watch and the remnants of the cruiser hull drift apart, I would hear again how Nation is unique in securing their military operational areas from outside interference. |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
551
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 17:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:The opinions of anyone who serves a Nation named after its own founder and honestly believes that it isn't an exercise in vanity and self-deification can safely be dismissed without further question.
Does that mean the Federation is an "an exercise in vanity and self-deification" of the Gallente people? |
|
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
4607
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 19:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Does that mean the Federation is an "an exercise in vanity and self-deification" of the Gallente people? Not really, because the Gallente aren't one person, and what the term "Gallente" actually means is a matter of debate. Mane 614
|
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
555
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 19:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
The term Sansha's Nation is a term specificly meaning the Nation created by Sansha. Much like the Amarrian Empire means the Empire of the Amarr. If you'll note we often refer to it as Nation. It's outsiders that tack on the Sansha part. So if it's deification, it's external deification. |
Ollie Rundle
168
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 22:36:00 -
[13] - Quote
Sofia Roseburn wrote:So basically the entire basis of your pitiful attempt at a counter-point is "well if you're claiming to be a supporter of Nation then why aren't you visibly a member". No, not at all, Miss Roseburn. I can't imagine the calibration errors in your translator software that might have allowed you to read it as such. If I didn't know better I'd suggest that the plain truth of Kuvakei's real regard for his loyal followers has caused something of a turbulent emotional response to creep into your usual rhetoric.
I am giving a very specific example - Evi Polevhia is a logistics pilot for a capsuleer corporation publically loyal to Sansha Kuvakei. She has unequivocally agreed that she is a slave - a loyal and obedient dog - to him and his vision for conquest over all of New Eden. She has also stated that Kuvakei rewards such loyalty.
I have pointed out to her that the reward for her providing his forces in an incursion zone with the benefit of her not inconsiderable logistics talent would be the destruction of her ship and crew at the hands of the very entity she is trying to help.
If you can point to where I am factually wrong in this example, please do so.
Ollie Rundle wrote:You are a slave - in the only sense that matters - to one man's whims.
Evi Polevhia wrote:You have spoken so clearly the line which best illustrates how severe the ignorance is among Outsiders to our methods and relations. Master Kuvakei is, for lack of a better term, revered because of what he started.
Evi Polevhia wrote:Do you understand what I mean when I've spoken of Nation's Unity? There is no one man in Nation any more. Not for Kuvakei. Not for Ahvar. Not for any of them. Then why do you still call him 'Master'?
Why not 'Revered'? Why not 'Citizen'? Why not 'Slave'? Why even keep the name Kuvakei at all? Let me guess, more of the elusive 'Nation lexicon' that we poor Outsiders could never hope to understand?
Very well, why does he still call himself Master in an empire named for him?
Have you perhaps been as mistaken in your interpretation of what Unity means within Sansha's Nation as you have about how he rewards those who publically demonstrate their loyalty to him? Or are you simply redefining words and titles to suit your own wishes and needs for reality? -á |
N'maro Makari
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
414
|
Posted - 2014.05.04 23:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:If you'll note we often refer to it as Nation. It's outsiders that tack on the Sansha part. So if it's deification, it's external deification.
It would explains some of the language.
"My" Nation, "My" Children, "My" Promised Land, etc.
Daddy pulled a fast one on you, chum. Vherokior-á |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
557
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 00:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
N'maro Makari wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:If you'll note we often refer to it as Nation. It's outsiders that tack on the Sansha part. So if it's deification, it's external deification. It would explains some of the language. "My" Nation, "My" Children, "My" Promised Land, etc. Daddy pulled a fast one on you, chum.
I don't refer to it as Sansha's Nation because it belongs to more then just Sansha Kuvakei. I don't refer to it as My Nation because I am not a part of it. It is referred to as Nation and ownership is collective.
Ollie, I am still waiting for you to address the answer I already gave you as to one of your points.
Evi Polevhia wrote:Ollie Rundle wrote: Were you to attempt to demonstrate your expertise in shield transfer arrays to the benefit of Sansha Kuvakei's forces in an incursion zone you would be locked and fired upon by those same forces in short order.
Once again I will state. Take any State loyal Capsuleer, put them in an Osprey, and have them warp into a Caldari Navy secure military operational area. Judge their lifespan in seconds. Once you put away the stop watch and the remnants of the cruiser hull drift apart, I would hear again how Nation is unique in securing their military operational areas from outside interference. |
N'maro Makari
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
415
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 01:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:N'maro Makari wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:If you'll note we often refer to it as Nation. It's outsiders that tack on the Sansha part. So if it's deification, it's external deification. It would explains some of the language. "My" Nation, "My" Children, "My" Promised Land, etc. Daddy pulled a fast one on you, chum. I don't refer to it as Sansha's Nation because it belongs to more then just Sansha Kuvakei. I don't refer to it as My Nation because I am not a part of it. It is referred to as Nation and ownership is collective.
And you missed my point; your Master, Sansha, the illustrious, Kuvakei, is the one using those very specific terms of ownership.
Whatever may be said, it is true to say that Sansha, and Sansha alone owns his promised land. Vherokior-á |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
557
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 01:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
I didn't realize you've spoken with him recently. Or ever. |
Bryen Verrisai
EVE University Ivy League
165
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 01:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:I don't refer to it as Sansha's Nation because it belongs to more then just Sansha Kuvakei. I think we just found the real reason you still get shot at during an incursion. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1054
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 01:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote: Then please allow me to disappoint you, because I disagree with what you say. I think you misunderstood my words. I don't consider the aims of Nation to be Megalomaniacal at all. Seeking control over the destiny of Humanity is a very human thing to do. The Gallente wish to spread Democracy. The Caldari will own everything and run it like a business. The Amarr wish existence to bend a knee reverently before their Lord. If Nation is meglomaniacal then we are in fine company. We just have a vision of how to direct Humanity's future.
The difference with the State, is that we don't put our management model on others. We run the State as business, because it brings us profit. And we don't care what others do in their territory (unless it will be something more efficient, that we could spy on and apply for ourselves ) Gallenteans, on other hand try to infect everyone with their inefficient inhuman democracy, they put their dirty hands into other peoples affairs, changing fast developing societies into stagnating and degrading democracies. Gallenteans don't teach democracy. They bring it on the edge of the sword. And we must grab this sword and put into gallentean throat to hilt.
As for you and vision of your Nation. The problem is, that this vision is a vision of one man, that is projected on miriad of his drones, all interconnected in one network and following his will. Following his vision would mean extracting your brains and replacing them with Sansha's schematics.
I doubt anyone would be happy to accept such fate. |
N'maro Makari
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
415
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 02:05:00 -
[20] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:I didn't realize you've spoken with him recently. Or ever.
"Hunted my children", "burn my promised land to ash", none of these ringing a bell? Vherokior-á |
|
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
558
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 02:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
N'maro Makari wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:I didn't realize you've spoken with him recently. Or ever. "Hunted my children", "burn my promised land to ash", none of these ringing a bell?
If I say Caldari Prime was my home world does that mean I'm implying it 100% belonged to me and no one else? |
Kei Sparrowhawk
True Ethics
11
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 03:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
N'maro Makari wrote:Evi Polevhia wrote:I didn't realize you've spoken with him recently. Or ever. "Hunted my children", "burn my promised land to ash", none of these ringing a bell?
He said "my promise land" because it is his promise land, it is the promise land of all members of Nation. If one day I get accepted into Nation, I will say "my promise land" because it will be my promise land.
I haven't spoken to him, so I can only make a guess about what he meant by "hunted my children". He could have been talking about how the empires attacked and murdered members of Nation that weren't able to defend themselves. These members could have even been children that were born or accepted into Nation. Once again, I haven't spoken to Sansha so this is just a guess. |
N'maro Makari
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
416
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 10:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
I think the word is apologism? Vherokior-á |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
558
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 12:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Still waiting for an answer from Ollie and from N'maro. |
Ollie Rundle
168
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 15:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Still waiting for an answer from Ollie and from N'maro.
My apologies for keeping you waiting. I was busy with something important.
You are not, to my knowledge, a current State loyalist. You have not, to my knowledge, ever made statements trying to defend your loyalty to the State. You have not, to my knowledge, ever stated 'Loyalty is rewarded' by the State. When you satisfy these criteria, they may become relevant to any argument you are making to support them.
You are an admitted loyalist to Sansha Kuvakei, his Nation and a slave to his vision of a universe slaved to his will and whims - so-called 'Unity'. This is one of several plaintive threads you have created or participated in of recent times where you have tried to defend and promote your loyalty to him, his Nation and his vision. You have unequivocally stated he rewards loyalty such as you have shown to him, his Nation and his vision.
His 'reward' for those loyalists who attempt to lend direct aid to his Incursion forces is to lock and fire upon their vessels in an attempt to destroy them and their crews. You have not yet unequivocally demonstrated any other way in which Sansha Kuvakei rewards the loyalty given to him, his Nation or his vision.
All the pretty words and whimsical hopes for a better tomorrow you hold out as promised rewards are but a carrot to the mules that will follow it.
The reality is demonstrably different.
-á |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
4609
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 16:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
The "carrot" for Sansha's Nation is the vague promise of collectivist transhumanism. The "stick," as Citizen Avhar openly expressed on multiple occasions, is that if you don't particularly want to be part of a collectivist transhuman society and don't comply with Kuvakei's demands, you will be rendered into biomass - while fully conscious, because, quote, "deploying anaesthetics at this stage would be a frightfully inefficient use of resources and might taint the output" - and that biomass will be turned into something that will comply.
In my discussions with Citizen Avhar, I repeatedly stated that the incursions were morally indefensible and that the majority of New Eden wanted absolutely nothing to do with Sansha, Sansha's Nation, True Citizens or True Slaves. While most apologists for Nation on the IGS will usually respond with "you don't know that!" or "you can't speak for everyone in the cluster!" or "how would they know? They've never been given the chance!" or a myriad of variants thereof, Avhar gave a surprisingly honest - if subtly terrifying - answer to this statement: "we're very much aware. It is of no particular concern to us." Mane 614
|
ValentinaDLM
Zaratha Zarati Shaktipat Revelators
521
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 18:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ollie Rundle wrote:[ His 'reward' for those loyalists who attempt to lend direct aid to his Incursion forces is to lock and fire upon their vessels in an attempt to destroy them and their crews. You have not yet unequivocally demonstrated any other way in which Sansha Kuvakei rewards the loyalty given to him, his Nation or his vision.
How amusing, you just don't seem to understand it do you? The Master doesn't need our assistance in Incursions, if he did he would ask. I fought side by side with the Master in the Promised Land, to help establish the path for those forces; my contribution was minimal for certain, but I go where I am requested. Merely being on grid with the man, let me see I had made the right choice. I am not privy to the strategy behind the current incursions but, this much is clear the Master hasn't asked us to help, and the reasons behind that are moot.
As for rewards, helping the Nation is a reward in itself. The few tangible rewards I have got, are meaningless in the face of that. Why are you so caught up on this? Are you looking to assist the Nation? There are agents available, and they do have their own store for those who help, if all you are concerned about is the tangible gains. If you care about the future of humanity, you wouldn't need a tangible reward though. |
DeadRow
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
264
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 21:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ollie Rundle wrote: You are not, to my knowledge, a current State loyalist. You have not, to my knowledge, ever made statements trying to defend your loyalty to the State. You have not, to my knowledge, ever stated 'Loyalty is rewarded' by the State. When you satisfy these criteria, they may become relevant to any argument you are making to support them.
You are an admitted loyalist to Sansha Kuvakei, his Nation and a slave to his vision of a universe slaved to his will and whims - so-called 'Unity'. This is one of several plaintive threads you have created or participated in of recent times where you have tried to defend and promote your loyalty to him, his Nation and his vision. You have unequivocally stated he rewards loyalty such as you have shown to him, his Nation and his vision.
His 'reward' for those loyalists who attempt to lend direct aid to his Incursion forces is to lock and fire upon their vessels in an attempt to destroy them and their crews. You have not yet unequivocally demonstrated any other way in which Sansha Kuvakei rewards the loyalty given to him, his Nation or his vision.
Independant capsuleer loyalists around the cluster experience the same, yet I don't see you using this broken record rhetoric else where. I guess when this is the only way to you try and smear a corporation, you have to use it. I am sure Alpha was more than vindicated in his belief that his corporation's loyalty to Nation was seen and accepted when two Revenants under True Power itself remote transferred shield to his Chimera when his tank was failing during the Return.
The mechanics of all Empires work the same for all of us, strange that hm?
~Hikari |
Evi Polevhia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
561
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 02:46:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ollie, I will post it a third time. Will you please respond to it?
Evi Polevhia wrote:Ollie Rundle wrote: Were you to attempt to demonstrate your expertise in shield transfer arrays to the benefit of Sansha Kuvakei's forces in an incursion zone you would be locked and fired upon by those same forces in short order.
Once again I will state. Take any State loyal Capsuleer, put them in an Osprey, and have them warp into a Caldari Navy secure military operational area. Judge their lifespan in seconds. Once you put away the stop watch and the remnants of the cruiser hull drift apart, I would hear again how Nation is unique in securing their military operational areas from outside interference.
If you having reading comprehension issues please say so. I know many clinics in the State which can assist you with any problems you may be experiencing in that area.
A question, Mister Ixiris. Should I care that a criminal who has broken a law and has been judged to receive the death penalty objects to his sentence? |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
4611
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 06:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
ValentinaDLM wrote: If you care about the future of humanity, you wouldn't need a tangible reward though. Quite so. Destroying Nation ships and ending the suffering of True Slaves is reward enough in itself. Mane 614
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |