Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 .. 17 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 21 post(s) |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
966
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 23:36:00 -
[91] - Quote
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: Component Assembly Array: from 1,000,000 m3 to 1,500,000 m3. I don't think this is sufficient. Is there any particular issue you are trying to avoid by keeping the storage on these arrays small? Wouldn't it be better just to make them big enough so that they aren't a massive pain to use? ME0 Erebus with crappy component BP is right under 55,000,000m3. I suggest we start there !!
Why not a whole titan, since all the components can be worked in in a single arrat at a small tower, simultaneously, with no cost penalty....
I find it hard to beleive that CCP thought this through, AT ALL! This can NOT be intended. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
966
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 23:47:00 -
[92] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote:An actually thread about POS improvements?! Is end of Time near!?
With unlimited slots in high stations for .7% higher cost, on average, they have removed the reason to have a high sec POS. This is an absolute fail attempt to give a POS some value.
The June changes, as announced, are AFU on so many levels.
It is going to take sooooo much longer to get a sub-1% waste BPO post update than the planned change at update, that it is likely to cause the same kind of hate amoung new players that is seen from T2 BPOs.
The unlimited slots at a single POS assembly array is game breaking.
The unlimited slots in station kills the reason to have a POS, and these changes do nothing to bring that back. 100 million for a small POS. 2% lower material cost? You have to turn 5 billion a month for the 2% savings to cover the cost of fuel, FOR A SMALL.... and then there is the risk and hassle of having the POS that means you have to turn more than that.
Seriously, they need to take a break, ask for an extra month, and do it right. This is not close to "right". |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3171
|
Posted - 2014.05.05 23:55:00 -
[93] - Quote
Well, NPC stations do have a 10% tax that POS don't. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Uncle Shrimpa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 00:06:00 -
[94] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Uncle Shrimpa wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: Component Assembly Array: from 1,000,000 m3 to 1,500,000 m3. I don't think this is sufficient. Is there any particular issue you are trying to avoid by keeping the storage on these arrays small? Wouldn't it be better just to make them big enough so that they aren't a massive pain to use? ME0 Erebus with crappy component BP is right under 55,000,000m3. I suggest we start there !! Why not a whole titan, since all the components can be worked in in a single arrat at a small tower, simultaneously, with no cost penalty.... I find it hard to beleive that CCP thought this through, AT ALL! This can NOT be intended.
All, EXCEPT the CSAA, that takes a medium as it takes 2000cpu, plus you have to have the CAA and CSAA online at the same time to drag the components and play mineral tetris
CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
|
Korthan Doshu
Hedion University Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 00:12:00 -
[95] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote:An actually thread about POS improvements?! Is end of Time near!? With unlimited slots in high stations for .7% higher cost, on average, they have removed the reason to have a high sec POS. This is an absolute fail attempt to give a POS some value. The June changes, as announced, are AFU on so many levels. It is going to take sooooo much longer to get a sub-1% waste BPO post update than the planned change at update, that it is likely to cause the same kind of hate amoung new players that is seen from T2 BPOs. The unlimited slots at a single POS assembly array is game breaking. The unlimited slots in station kills the reason to have a POS, and these changes do nothing to bring that back. 100 million for a small POS. 2% lower material cost? You have to turn 5 billion a month for the 2% savings to cover the cost of fuel, FOR A SMALL.... and then there is the risk and hassle of having the POS that means you have to turn more than that. Seriously, they need to take a break, ask for an extra month, and do it right. This is not close to "right".
Not exactly. Savings on manufacturing and the better ISK/hr on manufacturing jobs makes that the key reason for a highsec POS. If you're not ready to throw up a small tower with a single array of each kind you need, you're probably going to be leaving money on the table.
That said, unlimited slots is fundamentally against how these arrays work right now. But the answer--I've come to accept--is not to introduce slots through a backdoor like costs for too many jobs at one array. That would just nuke much of the remaining hope for the highsec POS.
Let's face it. The prevalence of highsec POSs today stems almost completely from the lack of copy and ME slots at stations. Take that away, and people have to do the hard work of justifying the time savings on assembly arrays, then maybe keeping the AML/ML for convenience.
CCP may not have thought these consequences through. But the truth is that it's here. |
Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm. Black Flag Society
74
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 00:12:00 -
[96] - Quote
Angelina Duvolle wrote:CCP Ytterbium,
I know sweeping changes for pos structures probably won't make this patch, but a slight tweak to the Refining arrays grid usage would be nice, 750k is a pile of grid... just means I have to offline piles of stuff everytime i want to refine mins. It's not a big deal, just adds a lot of time onlining those same mods over and over again, and it is rather pointless, everyone is gonna keep their refine arrays offline anyway.
Regards
Read the reprocessing dev blog. Refining arrays will use 100k or 200k PG depending on type. Capital Storm is recruiting Aussies for Lowsec pvp and money making. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame. www.capitalstorm.net |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
839
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 01:05:00 -
[97] - Quote
When you say 2% bonus is that a 2% reduction in materials out right so 100=98 Or Is that a +2% new me bonus? Or is it equal now?
Lephia DeGrande wrote:An actually thread about POS improvements?! Is end of Time near!? The little brother takes the last sorrowful step home He is not wanted
The entities of nothing shall consume the light |
Molic Blackbird
Orion Faction Industries Orion Consortium
129
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 02:41:00 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Component Assembly Array: from 1,000,000 m3 to 1,500,000 m3.
1.5m m3 is just too small to be of much use when building Capital components. There would still be a whole lot of micromanagement of minerals between arrays just to set jobs that last 1 week. 10,000,000 m3 would be my minimum size I would like to see.
|
Korthan Doshu
Hedion University Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 03:06:00 -
[99] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:When you say 2% bonus is that a 2% reduction in materials out right so 100=98 Or Is that a +2% new me bonus? Or is it equal now?
Those should be the same thing now. |
Dodo Jumper
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 05:43:00 -
[100] - Quote
Will ship assemble arrays pick up the 2% material bonus? |
|
Dei
Khanid Brotherhood
31
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 06:49:00 -
[101] - Quote
Has anyone thought about how they're going to transfer their stuff between arrays? I don't really want to be going to the POS all the time to move a newly copied set of BPCs to their relevant manufacturing arrays all the time. Previously it didn't matter where the BPOs/BPCs were but now they have to be with the slot location, so I can see this being a big ballache if there's no way to remotely transfer stuff between arrays at the starbase. |
Celia Therone
University of Caille Gallente Federation
70
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 07:48:00 -
[102] - Quote
Are the power grid/cpu requirements for POS modules going to change now that they have infinite slots? |
Marcus Iunius Brutus
NerdRage Inc.
31
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 07:50:00 -
[103] - Quote
Celia Therone wrote:Are the power grid/cpu requirements for POS modules going to change now that they have infinite slots?
It seems to be undecided yet. |
Sigras
Conglomo
750
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 08:02:00 -
[104] - Quote
I have two questions regarding how the 2% ME discount is calculated.
1. it is 2% and not 2 ME levels right? Just confirming because if not you've just condemned all invention to only ever be done in 0.0 amarr factory stations...
2. is the 2% calculated per job or per run?
I realize that in most cases #2 makes absolutely no difference, but think about manufacturing Small CCCs or even medium CCCs... a 2% discount per run is not going to help either of those products at all, but a 2% discount per job certainly could
TL;DR is the 2% discount calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * 0.98) * NumberOfJobs or is it calculated ROUNDUP(RequiredMaterial * NumberOfJobs * 0.98)? |
zahter
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 08:11:00 -
[105] - Quote
I am a t2 manufacturer for few months. I have pos and recently extended my production amount and enlarged my pos facilities. I was worried after the announcement. I was very scared of extra costs, I thought having pos was a luxury.
After I read many suggestions, spending some time reading the forum threads on changes, I wanted to make my own calculation
lets say material cost of items is "a" lets say installing cost of job is "b" installing cost "b" will be a function of "a". the only difference is tax of station pos have %2 material efficiency bonus, so "b" becomes b*0.98 for pos
total cost of producing items in station =b + 1.1 x a total cost of producing the item in pos = b x 0.98 + a
"b" being a function of "a" lets assume a coefficient "c" b=a x c
station= b+1.1xbxc= b x (1+1.1 x c) pos= b x 0.98 +b x c = b x (0.98 +c)
"c" is variable depending on the system and the amount of people actually using production services in system but it is same for starbase and station.
lets give "c" a value changing from %1 to %10 of the cost (this is extreme)
the ration between station and pos costs= (1 +1.1 x c) / (0.98 + c)
The ratio difference between pos and station production is not depended on item cost of production
if c is between %1 and %10 differences are always
"c" coefficientratio station/pos 0.01 1.021212121 0.02 1.022 0.03 1.022772277 0.04 1.023529412 0.05 1.024271845 0.06 1.025 0.07 1.025714286 0.08 1.026415094 0.09 1.027102804 0.1 1.027777778
with theese rations we need to produce about 6b worth of stuff in a month to rationalize fuel costs.
6b x 0.022 = 136.6m (small caldari pos fuel cost atm)
This bonus is very small for all the work pos requires.However the speed bonus of pos is not included in these calculation. In ideal conditions a pos can produce %25 more items than a station so it will be reasonable to have one, but using a pos with full potential is full time job.
There is starbase bonus mentioned in the related devblog. We did not hear from it since. It would be a good idea to implement it with summer tweaks.
|
Sigras
Conglomo
750
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 10:00:00 -
[106] - Quote
zahter wrote:lets say material cost of items is "a" lets say installing cost of job is "b" pos have %2 material efficiency bonus, so "b" becomes b*0.98 for pos no, youre wrong POS have a 2% ME bonus so "a" becomes a*0.98 for POS
A material bonus applies to the material cost of the items ... go figure... |
Zappity
Stay Frosty. A Band Apart.
1044
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 10:20:00 -
[107] - Quote
I don't understand why I would want to use a POS after these changes. And where is the lowsec bonus? Perhaps this needs to stay in the oven for just a little longer. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Sigras
Conglomo
750
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 10:26:00 -
[108] - Quote
2% material bonus isnt enough of a reason for you?
How is it that there are so many people who are terrible at math and still do industry? |
Marcus Iunius Brutus
NerdRage Inc.
31
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 10:30:00 -
[109] - Quote
Sigras wrote:2% material bonus isnt enough of a reason for you?
How is it that there are so many people who are terrible at math and still do industry?
Plus time bonus for assembly arrays that stays the same and no NPC tax for job installation. |
Uncle Shrimpa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
23
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 10:39:00 -
[110] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I don't understand why I would want to use a POS after these changes. And where is the lowsec bonus? Perhaps this needs to stay in the oven for just a little longer.
Higher refine rate than highsec and the ability to make capitals (Dreads and carriers) that isn't enough? CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
|
|
Ian Stanley
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 10:43:00 -
[111] - Quote
Lemmih AI wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- X-Large Assembly Array is being renamed Capital Assembly Array to better reflect what it actually does.
- Capital Assembly Array is being renamed Supercapital Assembly Array for the same reasons.
That sounds great except the part where the same name refers to a different item before and after an instant in time. It could be very confusing when people find older guides on the internet. If you renamed the X-Large Array to "Capital Ship Assembly Array", at least there'd be some indication that the names have changed, but even that would still be confusing. CCP Ytterbium wrote:Advanced Mobile labs: Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.75 (was 0.75). Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65). Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5). Considering that slots are going away, I really can't see anyone favoring the Advanced Mobile Lab over the Mobile lab with these stats. Maybe if copy time dropped all the way to .5 or if it had a stronger bonus to invention than the mobile lab (the whole reason for the Advanced Mobile labs was to support copying for invention, right?), it would be worth considering. Alternately, if there was an advantage to having multiple labs, it might get used, but when you just need one lab for all your research, the Mobile Lab is the clear winner.
i also for one wants a stronger bonus as right now there is no reason to choose the adv mobile lab over mobile lab! |
Gawain Edmond
Angry Mustellid
84
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 11:08:00 -
[112] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote: Also, 2% barely justifies the 600m isk/month cost a worthwhile POS takes to run IMO. Especially with infinite slots available in stations which are risk-free.
really? that 2% for me would cover the cost of the pos on it's own and if the production tax is cheaper than building in a station where lots of people are building and the right teams can be bought in then it makes manufacturing in low sec profitable and that's with just 1 person using a tower if a whole group of people is using the tower then that 2% mineral cost stacks up to a pretty huge saving |
NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
839
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 11:23:00 -
[113] - Quote
I liked the original 5% plan better, but I would rather have the 2% than no bonus Besides 2% is a nice round consistent number |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3174
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 11:24:00 -
[114] - Quote
It should be noted that /right now/, there are plenty of free industrial slots out there.
And yet, you have people who manufacture out of POS, with no material bonus.
What you were getting: Improved output (around 33% more modules) Available slots. (Relatively minor, unless you decided to go to a slammed system, or a system with no station services)
What you will be getting: Reduced build cost (no NPC tax. Possibly some mechanic for having more than one array/lab). Reduced build cost (base out of a low moon, no station service system, and you'll have very low costs due to the low percentage) Reduced Material cost. (2%. Not significant for some things, due to how the numbers work. for T2, this will be likely minimal on most modules. You can't treat it as a flat modifier. More significant on Expensive T1 things (high mineral counts = bigger effect) Reduced build time.
I still want to see what the layout is of build hours, but I don't think we'll get that before release (Greyscale and I disagreed on the utility, at the industry round table. I can see his point (Everything will change, as people who don't pay attention in advance cotton on), but I don't agree with it.) Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
3421
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 11:31:00 -
[115] - Quote
Plug in Baby wrote:Nothing about a capital component lab so lowsec can build capitals that can compete with null?
I heard such a lab with a large ME bonus was planned? Or is capital production going to null for sure now?
CCP Greyscale is working on that. |
|
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
3421
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 11:32:00 -
[116] - Quote
FFGR wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: We are giving all assembly arrays a 2% material reduction to manufactured products (except for the Supercapital Assembly Array, since there is no station competition when building super capital ships).
Rapid Equipment Assembly Array and Equipment Assembly Array will now have the same ME reduction, while Rapid will make products faster.
The Rapid Equipment Assembly Array still has a ME penalty, good catch, going to update original post. |
|
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
3421
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 11:35:00 -
[117] - Quote
Uncle Shrimpa wrote:Echo Mande wrote:All in all decent, though I would also like more hangar space.
Will missile sentries get looked at (CPU use dropped to 0)? They really need it.
One thing you could also look at is the CPU and power use by the various assembly arrays. If the intent is to promote construction and shipbuilding at POSses then in my opinion these values could stand being lowered a bit.
The ship arrays could also use some changes. The small and medium arrays have fairly small hangar sizes (2M m3 for a medium) compared to the modified non-ship arrays. The ship arrays' CPU and power could also use a tweak (down) or alternately the basic ship arrays' values could be lowered and the advanced arrays could be modified to allow building of T1 and T2 ships. Note that a decent production run of marauders or HACs can easily use multiple freighterloads of materials. Fozzie mentioned making missile batteries not horrible during the stream. He said prolly not this expansion, maybe a point release, but it is on someone's radar So far their increases on cargo of pos mods have been incredibly anemic at best. We are trying to get them increased to decent levels.....
I can talk with Fozzie regarding CPU requirements on missile batteries when he's around. |
|
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
3421
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 11:37:00 -
[118] - Quote
Lemmih AI wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- X-Large Assembly Array is being renamed Capital Assembly Array to better reflect what it actually does.
- Capital Assembly Array is being renamed Supercapital Assembly Array for the same reasons.
That sounds great except the part where the same name refers to a different item before and after an instant in time. It could be very confusing when people find older guides on the internet. If you renamed the X-Large Array to "Capital Ship Assembly Array", at least there'd be some indication that the names have changed, but even that would still be confusing. CCP Ytterbium wrote:Advanced Mobile labs: Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.75 (was 0.75). Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65). Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5). Considering that slots are going away, I really can't see anyone favoring the Advanced Mobile Lab over the Mobile lab with these stats. Maybe if copy time dropped all the way to .5 or if it had a stronger bonus to invention than the mobile lab (the whole reason for the Advanced Mobile labs was to support copying for invention, right?), it would be worth considering. Alternately, if there was an advantage to having multiple labs, it might get used, but when you just need one lab for all your research, the Mobile Lab is the clear winner.
We can add "ship" to the Capital / Supercapital Assembly Arrays to avoid confusion.
Regarding Mobile Labs, we have more changes coming in - I'll update the original post when I'm dong reading the feedback |
|
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
3421
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 11:39:00 -
[119] - Quote
Oxide Ammar wrote:Is it possible that medium ship assembly array overlap the small one, and large array overlap the medium and small one ? means I can build anything starting from frigs to BS in the large ship array ?
No sorry, we like the individual capabilities of each - having them overlap would obsolete the smaller ones as soon as you have enough Starbase fittings. |
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3174
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 11:45:00 -
[120] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Then, laboratories:
Mobile labs: Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75). Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75). Time multiplier for copying: 0.7 (was 0.75). Time multiplier for invention: 0.45 (was 0.5).
Advanced Mobile labs: Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.75 (was 0.75). Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65). Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5).
Hyasyoda mobile labs: Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.65 (was 0.75). Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.65 (was 0.75). Time multiplier for invention: 0.45 (was 0.5).
Wouldn't it make more sense to do this instead: Research Lab: (WasMobile lab) Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.7 (was 0.75). Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.7 (was 0.75). No Copy, (was Time multiplier for copying: 0.75). No Invention (was Time multiplier for invention: 0.5). Invention lab: (was Advanced Mobile) No ME research (was Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.75). Time multiplier for copying: 0.6 (was 0.65). Time multiplier for invention: 0.5 (was 0.5). Hyasyoda mobile labs: Time multiplier for Research ME: 0.65 (was 0.75). Time multiplier for Research TE: 0.65 (was 0.75). No Invention (wast ime multiplier for invention: 0.5) That way you have more incentive to have different types of labs on your pos? And choices are easier, and you can create more named modules better in the future based on this gradient?
Just want to say, I quite like this idea. Provides a better differentiation between the lab types. Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 .. 17 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |