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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
jangofett76
SnaiLs aNd FroGs
0
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
Quote:The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.
Yes I think, it's so easy for them to delog in a system during the night when they saw +50 npc kills on siggy ... They have so much char, they leave one in wh and wait people farm again and come gank again. And if you think that's call PVP like said one of quantum explosion it's really pathtic.
SO YES DO IT! |
Bane Nucleus
Assault and Battery
1526
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 16:50:00 -
[32] - Quote
This isn't that big of a deal. Proper scouting will still give you all the information you need. No trolling please |
Haka Kakinen
State War Academy Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:51:00 -
[33] - Quote
make it GLOBAL , not only WH |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1531
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 16:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
Querns wrote:Aryth wrote:Arguments to delay it pending a game design decision though I think have a lot of validity. Considering that the eve game design team was consulted prior to posting publicly about the change, I'd say the delay is unwarranted.
It doesn't sound like they asked them about a new deployable to put this behavior within the game. Just a "Hey, you guys think this should go too?" Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
497
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:52:00 -
[35] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:Querns wrote:This change promotes risk in wormhole space by removing the ability for entrenched wormhole dwellers to quickly curate the connections to their wormhole by analyzing historical data. Now, the curation of these connections must be done manually, like the greater majority of wormhole activities, in line with the design goal of the space. Actually this will just play to the strengths of the entrenched wormhole dwellers, because most of us have our own databases of who lives where and what they like doing. These databases were created manually, by direct observation, by real people. I have no problem with the existence of such things because of this. If you use your manually curated information to make decisions on how to best safeguard your assets or maraud the assets of others, in the context of wormhole space, more power to you. You deserve the benefits.
I'm against this information being available, in the context of wormhole space, to be curated by software for every single system in wormhole space. It's too easy. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4615
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 16:52:00 -
[36] - Quote
OK great, we have moved threads, I will repeat my post from the other thread then:
The NPC kill information is useful really only for finding people who are just farming in w-space. It is already quite hard to catch and kill these folks. They rarely store anything of value in a POS, so invading and shooting their POS doesn't matter, one of the few ways to kill them is if they have become predictable, and the only real way to find that is with NPC kill data.
The fact that this information is not visible in the client isn't really a good reason either. There is plenty of information that is only visible via the API right now, for example, the contents of POS hangars when you are not at a POS, or even POS fuel levels when you are not present. Are you also proposing to remove the Assets and POS endpoints?
There are many publicly available sites where everyone can see this information, from Dotlan to static mapper, so people that choose to seek out the information can have it. EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?
I'll also add that it appears to me that the folks most in favor of this *change* is the folks who I assume are benefiting from it. It is incredibly easy to set up a farming operation in a C5, and even with the current API it is difficult to get caught. The folks that are doing this are the reason Melted Nanoribbons have gone down in value by more than 80% over the last year or so. This hurts everyone in w-space, but especially the folks in lower class holes, who depend on salvage values a lot more than C5/C6 residents who get nearly all of their income from blue books.
The fix for this is a game design issue, not an API one, but until that game design fix is made, please don't make the situation worse for the sake of a core design principle of the API. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Valterra Craven
225
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:52:00 -
[37] - Quote
Querns wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.
What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case. The game design choice is pretty clear -- "the API should not expose information that is unavailable in the client." The track record for enforcement of this choice is in no way indicative of whether it SHOULD be enforced.
And I'm not saying that's something I inherently disagree with. It just seems oddly and unevenly enforced. I wonder if you guys would feel just as supportive about a change that would remove you ability to look over Chaos changes and thus removed your ability to speculate on the market so much? (yes I understand that its not api data, but this is essentially about players having access to data not available in the the client...)
I'm saying that picking and choosing which things to enforce this rule on seems questionable. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
497
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:54:00 -
[38] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Querns wrote:Aryth wrote:Arguments to delay it pending a game design decision though I think have a lot of validity. Considering that the eve game design team was consulted prior to posting publicly about the change, I'd say the delay is unwarranted. It doesn't sound like they asked them about a new deployable to put this behavior within the game. Just a "Hey, you guys think this should go too?" If CCP wants this information to be available in the client, they can do so. It cannot come at the expense of the design goals of the API, however.
Furthermore, any in-game deployable would be necessarily limited in its scope to gather the required intel. The API exposes the intel for all systems, all the time, to be downloaded, stored, and curated by software. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
24
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
Over 5 years of Wormholes CPP did nothing new in them . There were no interesting innovations that would be used only for WH (new scanning, scan ships - is more for beginners)
You , CCP, for several years now talking about new classes WH, new anomalies , new activities , changes POS structures ( this is the only way to live in WH if you do not know )
Now you want to remove the only entertainment for active residents WH. Do you think what happens after that ? I personally stop disburse about 30 accounts.
You do not see the world that you created and do not even know that there are people doing . |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10662
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:55:00 -
[40] - Quote
Two step wrote:EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?
so maybe you shouldn't be lazy and uninformed and depend on the API to give you intelligence that you should be gathering actively Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
497
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:55:00 -
[41] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Querns wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.
What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case. The game design choice is pretty clear -- "the API should not expose information that is unavailable in the client." The track record for enforcement of this choice is in no way indicative of whether it SHOULD be enforced. And I'm not saying that's something I inherently disagree with. It just seems oddly and unevenly enforced. I wonder if you guys would feel just as supportive about a change that would remove you ability to look over Chaos changes and thus removed your ability to speculate on the market so much? (yes I understand that its not api data, but this is essentially about players having access to data not available in the the client...) I'm saying that picking and choosing which things to enforce this rule on seems questionable. I'm absolutely for the removal of the ability to analyze Chaos diffs. Make it happen yesterday. Sure, I've benefited from it in the past, but it's obviously not intended and represents an unfair advantage for those "in the know." This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1531
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 16:56:00 -
[42] - Quote
Two step wrote:OK great, we have moved threads, I will repeat my post from the other thread then:
The NPC kill information is useful really only for finding people who are just farming in w-space. It is already quite hard to catch and kill these folks. They rarely store anything of value in a POS, so invading and shooting their POS doesn't matter, one of the few ways to kill them is if they have become predictable, and the only real way to find that is with NPC kill data.
The fact that this information is not visible in the client isn't really a good reason either. There is plenty of information that is only visible via the API right now, for example, the contents of POS hangars when you are not at a POS, or even POS fuel levels when you are not present. Are you also proposing to remove the Assets and POS endpoints?
There are many publicly available sites where everyone can see this information, from Dotlan to static mapper, so people that choose to seek out the information can have it. EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?
I'll also add that it appears to me that the folks most in favor of this *change* is the folks who I assume are benefiting from it. It is incredibly easy to set up a farming operation in a C5, and even with the current API it is difficult to get caught. The folks that are doing this are the reason Melted Nanoribbons have gone down in value by more than 80% over the last year or so. This hurts everyone in w-space, but especially the folks in lower class holes, who depend on salvage values a lot more than C5/C6 residents who get nearly all of their income from blue books.
The fix for this is a game design issue, not an API one, but until that game design fix is made, please don't make the situation worse for the sake of a core design principle of the API.
I am not sure I would have made the "But my PROFIT" argument for an API change. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
497
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:57:00 -
[43] - Quote
AutumnWind1983 wrote:Aside from the information in question here, the absolute co-ordinates for celestials and systems, which allow third party applications to calculate jump ranges of capitals isn't available in client but is available in the API. Guess you'll be taking out that information the same day you remove the NPC kill information right?
This is not correct; the API does not expose the absolute coordinates for celestials and systems. This information is provided by the Static Data Export (SDE). The SDE is not necessarily beholden to the same standards as the API, as it only provides static data. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
RudinV
Syndicate of Death BLOOD UNION
151
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 17:00:00 -
[44] - Quote
can some1 explain me why goons are talking about wh stuff? no offense guys, but we dont discuss nulls carebearing here |
Harry Sullivan
Amarr Technologies.
4
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:00:00 -
[45] - Quote
I`ll post from an HS alt as I`ll probably receive a lot of **** from the WH people.
I am one of the people who like to play in unknown space / wormhole space and with multiple accounts. I`m also a carebear so I might look at the whole risk / reward thing a bit different than most WH pvp people.
I highly welcome the change to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API because I feel like the way W-Space was originally designed contradicts directly with you PvP people being able to use out of game tools to discover potential victims instead of the actual need to "discover" these opportunities while I as someone who rather fights sleepers as other people have no advantage using the API in the way you do.
You say this will make it very hard to find PvP fights in the future and carebears like I am are less at risk because of it. That`s simply not true from my point of view. You are just too used to something you shouldn`t have had access to in the first place and probably lazy to find a better way to have great fights in between your groups and also deny yourself the great feeling of finding an inhabitated WH with capitals or other juicy stuff in it you can burn to the ground if you so desire.
As a single player in a C5 Wormhole with multiple accounts I`m at risk any time, when I moved my stuff in incl. capitals. When I move stuff out. I had people roll into me specifically and extort me multiple times. I paid up, had a nice talk that I`d love to give WH PvP people a good fight but am a single pilot and rather support their PvP with a reasonable amount of ISK if they leave me alone, and people left me alone.
But still, these opportunities mostly did arise for WH PvP groups because they didn't roll into me by accident or discover my hole but by using statistics they shouldn`t have access to in the first place.
This can`t be in anyones interest at all. Neither mine as a PvE player, nor yours PvP players. I don`t think it`s very satisfying that you find your PvP by using tools and statistics rather than playing the game and exploring the "unknown space" that you all say you love so much.
About the PvP aspects I don`t see any problems with that too.
Why are you WH PvP groups not putting together an Intel tool you share with each other and coordinate wormholes you want to fight each other in instead of crying about CCP is taking easy targets away from you and actually want you to work for your kills and PvP?
Anyway, I thought I`ll share my two cents on this and if this is going to happen I`m really thankful for it FoxFour, just like the rest of the great work you did with the API so far.
P.S: English is not my mother tongue so I`m sorry if I caused any accidential eye c*ncer or brought the inner language naz* show up in someone.
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Jezza McWaffle
Blackstar Privateers Disavowed.
99
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
Wow this is pathetically terrible. And i'm sorrry but I am not buying the arguement about it being helpful for only 1 side, every decent WH group uses these out of game tools because there are no in game tools what so ever. It will make log off traps less likely since you'll no longer be able to see who is an active corp and who is not, reducing PvE risk in WH's is just a bad bad idea.
Also don't forget the information provided by the API's is at least 1 hour out of date. So its best use is to find out the 'active' time period of the connected group and if they could provide any content. We already do enough in W-space to find content and this just makes it alot harder, don't forget as well that any group who leaves their chain open and starts PvE'ing without closing their entrances deserves to die and there is no exception to this!
When CCP actually decides to make some decent friggin tools for W-space in game and take a look at the current shite mechanics then they can start looking at removing the API's. I bet the Devs touching this have not taken part in any PvP WH activity recently. C6 Wormhole blog http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/ |
iLLeLogicaL
The Red Circle Inc.
34
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:01:00 -
[47] - Quote
Querns wrote:AutumnWind1983 wrote:Aside from the information in question here, the absolute co-ordinates for celestials and systems, which allow third party applications to calculate jump ranges of capitals isn't available in client but is available in the API. Guess you'll be taking out that information the same day you remove the NPC kill information right?
This is not correct; the API does not expose the absolute coordinates for celestials and systems. This information is provided by the Static Data Export (SDE). The SDE is not necessarily beholden to the same standards as the API, as it only provides static data.
Yeah but it's not part of the ingame client and that's really the issue here, is it not? |
Fhalkonx
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:01:00 -
[48] - Quote
I posted this in the other thread but since we have moved, I will repost it here.
Since CCP has dedicated itself to the creation of deployables lately instead of tackling other deeper issues, why not replace this information by an in-game deployable? You would have to actually visit the system in question and leave one of these deployable structures to gather stats about the system (or within a certain AU range in the system from where it was deployed). You might have to be within X LY of the system to read the data from it and it would be only accessible to the player who deployed it. If the deployables are made rather tough and difficult to scan down, it would allow long duration monitoring of chains while providing content for everyone. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
497
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:02:00 -
[49] - Quote
RudinV wrote:can some1 explain me why goons are talking about wh stuff? no offense guys, but we dont discuss nulls carebearing here Who says we don't have experience with wormhole stuff? Who says we aren't in your alliance, or in your corporation?
This is an appeal to non-authorities and is not particularly relevant. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10664
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 17:03:00 -
[50] - Quote
iLLeLogicaL wrote:Yeah but it's not part of the ingame client and that's really the issue here, is it not?
that's a gross oversimplification and you know it
you are grasping at straws here Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
497
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:03:00 -
[51] - Quote
iLLeLogicaL wrote:Querns wrote:AutumnWind1983 wrote:Aside from the information in question here, the absolute co-ordinates for celestials and systems, which allow third party applications to calculate jump ranges of capitals isn't available in client but is available in the API. Guess you'll be taking out that information the same day you remove the NPC kill information right?
This is not correct; the API does not expose the absolute coordinates for celestials and systems. This information is provided by the Static Data Export (SDE). The SDE is not necessarily beholden to the same standards as the API, as it only provides static data. Yeah but it's not part of the ingame client and that's really the issue here, is it not? It is the issue; we are talking about the information exposed via the API. Capital geography information is exposed via the SDE. These are two different things.
Feel free to provide another example of information exposed via the API that is not available in the client. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
3115
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 17:03:00 -
[52] - Quote
Two step wrote:OK great, we have moved threads, I will repeat my post from the other thread then:
The NPC kill information is useful really only for finding people who are just farming in w-space. It is already quite hard to catch and kill these folks. They rarely store anything of value in a POS, so invading and shooting their POS doesn't matter, one of the few ways to kill them is if they have become predictable, and the only real way to find that is with NPC kill data.
The fact that this information is not visible in the client isn't really a good reason either. There is plenty of information that is only visible via the API right now, for example, the contents of POS hangars when you are not at a POS, or even POS fuel levels when you are not present. Are you also proposing to remove the Assets and POS endpoints?
There are many publicly available sites where everyone can see this information, from Dotlan to static mapper, so people that choose to seek out the information can have it. EVE is a game that is all about punishing the lazy and uninformed player, why are you proposing to change this here?
I'll also add that it appears to me that the folks most in favor of this *change* is the folks who I assume are benefiting from it. It is incredibly easy to set up a farming operation in a C5, and even with the current API it is difficult to get caught. The folks that are doing this are the reason Melted Nanoribbons have gone down in value by more than 80% over the last year or so. This hurts everyone in w-space, but especially the folks in lower class holes, who depend on salvage values a lot more than C5/C6 residents who get nearly all of their income from blue books.
The fix for this is a game design issue, not an API one, but until that game design fix is made, please don't make the situation worse for the sake of a core design principle of the API.
Going to start with your points about information in the API that is not in the client.
POS Hangers: This is only because of bad UI and POS code. As far as we are concerned, the contents should be. POS Fuel: Same as above
The difference between the above and this change is in the above scenario due to whatever development reasons you have to go to the POS to check those things. There is no design reason for it and if given the development time we would like those features in the client. Those features get a low priority from development though because tools exist outside the game to do it.
So the information you talk about is available in the client, you have to go and get it, but given the chance we would fix that. See POCOs and how you can config them and not have to be near them. We are big fans of that.
In the case of this information however, design has SPECIFICALLY said we do NOT want it in the client. We feel it takes away from what wormholes are designed to be, a place of unknowns.
Again the crux of this change is that the information is in no way available in the client. This is not an API that makes getting this information easier or without travel, this just does NOT exist in the client.
I will be bringing up the idea of this information being made available in the client with the rest of the design department, but those I have talked to throughout the day have agreed it should not be. That being said not everyone is in today. CCP FoxFour // Game Designer // @regnerba
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1531
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:04:00 -
[53] - Quote
RudinV wrote:can some1 explain me why goons are talking about wh stuff? no offense guys, but we dont discuss nulls carebearing here
I cannot think of a single area of the game goons are not involved in somehow. One thing about being big, there is a SIG for everyone. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
11
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:06:00 -
[54] - Quote
Querns wrote: It is the issue; we are talking about the information exposed via the API. Capital geography information is exposed via the SDE. These are two different things.
Feel free to provide another example of information exposed via the API that is not available in the client.
Well, if we are going for an appeal to mystery and (implicitly) lore, then the SDE has no place in the game either. |
Ragnen Delent
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
16
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:06:00 -
[55] - Quote
Either this change does nothing, which means it shouldn't matter if the API info is removed, or it is doing something, which means the API info should be removed. Pretty straight forward: You should not be getting information out of game that is not conveyed within it. Everyone asking for it to be removed from K-space forget that anyone can open up a map and get this information in game currently from there. Only those with out of game tools can do so for W-space.
If you want to keep this, articulate an argument that does not simply consist of "I like things the way they are" with more words. Why should local not work in W-space but being able to get info on activity from ANYWHERE AT ALL be OK? |
SKINE DMZ
S U P R E M E - M A T H E M A T I C S A Band Apart.
464
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:07:00 -
[56] - Quote
Andski wrote:This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible. This! Great change I disagree
RAWR IM TOUGH |
Cassini Valentine
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 17:07:00 -
[57] - Quote
IDEA: NPC Kill information is available in the client for the last 12 hours, but only when you are in the system in question
Having read many other posts so far I've concluded removal of NPC kills from the API is a good thing because:
- Means wormholer's have to scout out site runners rather than POS spin and wait for a blip of activity on their 3rd party mapper
- Adds to making wormhole space more unknown
- Makes an even playing field between defender and attacker in terms of intel.
In my own opinion removal of this information all together is a bad thing because:
- It removes the some of the danger of W-space and the risk vs. reward aspect to PvE in WH's
- Reduces content creation and fights that come from escalations between the site running fleet and ganking fleet.
I believe that the NPC kill information should only be available for the last 12 hours when in the system in question and should be available in client. The effects of this being:
- Increased traffic through wormholes as players search their mapped systems for activity, more content / PvP. This rewards scouting wormholes.
- Incentive for PvE'rs to place scouts on wormholes to monitor activity.
- Maintains the unknown factor of w-space
- Will make WH'ers more paranoid (always welcomed).
I'm of course biased towards the pvp activity of wormholes and the not knowing whats around the corner part. I believe rewards you receive from PvE should correlate to the danger of PvP. The more PvE you do, the more likely the "boogie man corporation" (i.e Blood Union), is to scout you down and blow up your ships.
TL;DR. Scouters actually have to go scouting for content. Wormholes should not be a safe haven for PvE players without the corresponding risk. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10665
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:08:00 -
[58] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:Well, if we are going for an appeal to mystery and (implicitly) lore, then the SDE has no place in the game either.
SDE does not expose anything that could be used as intelligence. That's the difference. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
497
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:08:00 -
[59] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:Querns wrote: It is the issue; we are talking about the information exposed via the API. Capital geography information is exposed via the SDE. These are two different things.
Feel free to provide another example of information exposed via the API that is not available in the client.
Well, if we are going for an appeal to mystery and (implicitly) lore, then the SDE has no place in the game either. If CCP would like to remove the SDE, they're fully within their rights to do so.
However, given that I personally have copies of the SDE going back about as far as I've been playing eve, and that others have copies going back even further, I think the cat's out of the bag on that one. It's not like capital geography changes all that much. Essentially, this is another false equivalency. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Dmitry Wizard
THE AESIR.
306
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:09:00 -
[60] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Nullbears dont like being login trapped by BU/QEX so we are nerfing WH space. Have a good day :D
"Wormhole corps are like a bunch of homeschooled kids" |
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