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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
10674
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:23:00 -
[181] - Quote
Jezza McWaffle wrote:Andski wrote:Angsty Teenager wrote:Since you've never actually done a logoff trap, let me assure you that it takes a lot of rolling to find an active farming wormhole. You have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, but you already know which wormholes are "active farming wormholes" through API data. Do you know how many are involved though? No. Do you know they will run sites at that exact time? No. The NPC kills are a great way of showing some potential farmers but you still need to do alot of background work and scouting to make a successful log off trap or gank. As the guys from Quantum have said and linked to in previous posts, its very easy to defend against log off traps, farmers just don't bother because: A. Stupids B. Farming is ridiculously safe C. Isk efficiency
So clearly the API data isn't that important and you won't need it
Okay Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Alundil
Trader-Hoes
485
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:24:00 -
[182] - Quote
Querns wrote:Alundil wrote:Andski wrote:Alundil wrote:Andski wrote:This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible. Like local amirite? not remotely germane to this discussion Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies. So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane. You're comparing apples and oranges, is what he's saying. Nullsec game mechanics aren't really relevant to a discussion about wormhole mechanics. Incorrect. His statement was specific to 'Intel gathering' and the requirement that it should be an involved and active process.
Goose....say hello to the gander. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
DaOpa
Static Corp
31
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:24:00 -
[183] - Quote
Remove it from the API,
Then Add in the following:
Deployable buoy that does exactly what your removing but all ingame, which can be destroyed or repacked/reused by players.
DaOpa's EVE Fansite ||Wormhole Database / Wormhole Systems Lookup Tool ||Live Streamer at twitch.tv/daopa |
Alundil
Trader-Hoes
485
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:27:00 -
[184] - Quote
Andski wrote:Alundil wrote:Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies.
So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane. Of course you'll try to derail this thread by talking about something that does not exist in w-space in a thread about a change to w-space mechanics. If you want to talk about local, go start another thread about local, or post in one of the millions of existing threads about local. Local in nullsec has absolute fuckall to do with this discussion. The irony of wormholers complaining about local being effortless intel when they're demanding that CCP leave another form of effortless intel intact because it actually benefits them is golden Yes because as I said earlier this data is very useful without ever leaving your home system to even open those other connections where this data might be relevant......
/s
This is trend worthy data only that gains relevance once a scout or scouts has been in the system. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1532
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:28:00 -
[185] - Quote
Two step wrote:Querns wrote:Two step wrote: And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.
All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers.
People doing PvE in wormholes is a problem? I'd like to hear why. NOTE: The dilution of your ability to make money in a wormhole because others are doing it is a very poor reason. I'm sorry, but perhaps you are not aware that the only fing reason to do PVE in this game is to make money. Certainly my arguments about why people shouldn't be able to do nearly risk-free PVE are going to involve money. I will try to use little words, since you seem to be not getting it. People doing PVE with little risk is bad. Wormholes are big risk, big rewards. You are supposed to have all your ships and assets at risk to be able to make ISK from C5/6 sites. Farmers don't do this. If their POS gets popped, they don't care, and just wait a week to log in. The farming doesn't just hurt the big groups, in fact it hurts us far less. 95% or so of our income is from the blue books from Sleepers. The little guys in C1-3 space are the ones hurt the most by this, because now their Sleeper salvage is just about worthless.
So you are saying you have the ability to stop the farmers cold for a week at a time. As though that isn't lost ISK due to risk. You then pivot to the "think of the children" argument and how it won't hurt your profit.
I do agree that risk and reward should be balanced. However, I think the proper approach is to change wormhole mechanics more to introduce more risk. It doesn't seem as though anyone at CCP or in these threads is against changing mechanics. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:28:00 -
[186] - Quote
MaxDEL wrote:Why Goons in this topic and people are not related to the WH, who build their assumptions from the air?
Now we say that WH important statistics as well as on other systems K-Space. If you want to remove the CCP API statistics, then remove it from the whole world, to no one was hurt.
Then pilot of Blood Union and EXPLOSION can safely remove EVE Online client and forget about this game. Wait, what would make BU and QEX remove their EVE client? |
Def Monk
404 File Not Found
7
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:29:00 -
[187] - Quote
DaOpa wrote:Remove it from the API, Then Add in the following: Deployable buoy that does exactly what your removing but all ingame, which can be destroyed or repacked/reused by players. This sounds awesome. Only PLEASE make it not show up on overview/dscan, but findable via combat probes. Would be neat.
Edit: Also, you can only retrieve the data by going to it, like an ESS. |
Napoleon Aldent
Rolled Out
12
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:30:00 -
[188] - Quote
Querns wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Andski wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan. Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored. Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle? Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.
I was looking for a good signature. Thanks for providing one which will hopefully bring joy and laughter to everyone who sees it. Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.-á -Goonswarm 2014 |
Alundil
Trader-Hoes
485
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:30:00 -
[189] - Quote
Andski wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan. Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored. It actually happens quite often. You should know more about your coalition members. Some have even written tools (log even) that broadcast Intel on local pilot movements with no other effort than some pilot online sitting in a station with a client reading the local list.
For real. Fair for all right? Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Jezza McWaffle
Blackstar Privateers Disavowed.
101
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:31:00 -
[190] - Quote
Andski wrote:Jezza McWaffle wrote:Andski wrote:Angsty Teenager wrote:Since you've never actually done a logoff trap, let me assure you that it takes a lot of rolling to find an active farming wormhole. You have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, but you already know which wormholes are "active farming wormholes" through API data. Do you know how many are involved though? No. Do you know they will run sites at that exact time? No. The NPC kills are a great way of showing some potential farmers but you still need to do alot of background work and scouting to make a successful log off trap or gank. As the guys from Quantum have said and linked to in previous posts, its very easy to defend against log off traps, farmers just don't bother because: A. Stupids B. Farming is ridiculously safe C. Isk efficiency So clearly the API data isn't that important and you won't need it Okay
I would bother doing a proper reply but that would require more effort than you put into posting. So I'm just going to make noises. Moooooooo. C6 Wormhole blog http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/ |
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Masaru Sora
Eve Ryuken
0
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:31:00 -
[191] - Quote
Well I guess the PvP WH corpse have to move to WHs with static Nullsecs (or C5/6 with lots of random Nulls) and search for our beloved PvP Content in Nullsec and harass Nullsec dudes then. |
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1532
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:33:00 -
[192] - Quote
Masaru Sora wrote:Well I guess the PvP WH corpse have to move to WHs with static Nullsecs (or C5/6 with lots of random Nulls) and search for our beloved PvP Content in Nullsec and harass Nullsec dudes then.
Wolfpacks guys Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Def Monk
404 File Not Found
7
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:34:00 -
[193] - Quote
Masaru Sora wrote:Well I guess the PvP WH corpse have to move to WHs with static Nullsecs (or C5/6 with lots of random Nulls) and search for our beloved PvP Content in Nullsec and harass Nullsec dudes then. They'd just dock up in they pretty stations we can't attack. :P |
Rhes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
880
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:34:00 -
[194] - Quote
MaxDEL wrote:Why Goons in this topic and people are not related to the WH, who build their assumptions from the air? Maybe because some of us like seeing entitled pubbies cry?
EVE is a game about spaceships and there's an enormous amount of work to do on the in-space gameplay before players (or developers) are ready to sacrifice it for a totally new type of gameplay - CCP Rise |
G0hme
Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion
198
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:35:00 -
[195] - Quote
Angsty Teenager wrote: Stuff
I win
Shook Eelm's hand at Fanfest 2012 Shook CCP Soundwave's hand at Fanfest 2013
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Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1533
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:37:00 -
[196] - Quote
Def Monk wrote:Masaru Sora wrote:Well I guess the PvP WH corpse have to move to WHs with static Nullsecs (or C5/6 with lots of random Nulls) and search for our beloved PvP Content in Nullsec and harass Nullsec dudes then. They'd just dock up in they pretty stations we can't attack. :P
You mean the ones you aren't organized with enough firepower to attack? Then yes, I suppose "can't" is the proper word. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
Major Ream
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:38:00 -
[197] - Quote
I think it's interesting, the amount of concern people are expressing about Risk/Reward for (other people's) PVE. Really?
I think it's interesting, the concerns about how hard this would make "PVP". I don't think this would do anything to stop the evictions that cause the epic battles in WSpace. In fact, I don't think it would do anything to the strait-up PVP that occasionally happens on wormholes. It would be a detriment to chain-rolling gankers. So that's the "PVP" being nerfed then ... killing players already sieged or tackled, shields stripped, getting reps for their armor? Well then, I guess the people who warp another cap into an escalation and then warp out (leaving the original people with more than they can tank) will have to work harder to find places and times to do their thing.
Lets be clear here: I love PVP. But ganking freighers in Niarja, or killing mission runners, or this "Wormhole PVP" people are speaking of - that's not really PVP. PVP is when you man up, face a capable foe and are at a real risk of loosing your ship. Ganking is for punks.
CCP FoxFour, please consider the nature of the "PVP" that Servant's Lord is trying to advocate for. |
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
30
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:38:00 -
[198] - Quote
Remove Goons from this topic! |
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:39:00 -
[199] - Quote
I want what I want! |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
502
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:40:00 -
[200] - Quote
Two step wrote:Querns wrote:Two step wrote: And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.
All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers.
People doing PvE in wormholes is a problem? I'd like to hear why. NOTE: The dilution of your ability to make money in a wormhole because others are doing it is a very poor reason. I'm sorry, but perhaps you are not aware that the only fing reason to do PVE in this game is to make money. Certainly my arguments about why people shouldn't be able to do nearly risk-free PVE are going to involve money. I will try to use little words, since you seem to be not getting it. People doing PVE with little risk is bad. Wormholes are big risk, big rewards. You are supposed to have all your ships and assets at risk to be able to make ISK from C5/6 sites. Farmers don't do this. If their POS gets popped, they don't care, and just wait a week to log in. The farming doesn't just hurt the big groups, in fact it hurts us far less. 95% or so of our income is from the blue books from Sleepers. The little guys in C1-3 space are the ones hurt the most by this, because now their Sleeper salvage is just about worthless. Ah, yes, we've managed to swing it around from a "my personal isk faucet is being threatened" argument to yet ANOTHER variation on the "fix every related niggling, tangential, real or perceived flaw with the game before moving forward with the part of the change which I personally dislike" argument.
Did they give out a handbook on suggested eve-o arguments that got lost on its way to my mailbox or something? This is starting to get old.
The whole risk/reward thing related to PvP activity is pretty funny at its core, really. There's this giant tower of assumptions that gets erected every time someone invokes this particular argument, primarily revolving around the concept that both parties are perfect, rational actors, and that every single PvP scenario plays out exactly the same because of this. You see it in a lot of places; certainly when talking about nullsec, but apparently in wormhole space as well. What doesn't get said is that in the overwhelming majority of actual PvP actions, neither party is perfect or rational. I'm guilty of it several times; I've lost lots of ships, including capitals, due to making stupid mistakes. I've also lost a lot of opportunities to kill a ship due to my own incompetence.
The point here is that PvP can't be boiled down to a simple set of vignettes. Sure, changes in gameplay can incentivize or disincentivize certain patterns, but you can't just make a blanket statement about risk and reward when PvP is involved like this. There's not enough room to account for the killer instinct or the shrewdness of the actors involved when you're making up little vignettes like this. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Erica Dusette
Rolled Out
6958
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:41:00 -
[201] - Quote
Rhes wrote:MaxDEL wrote:Why Goons in this topic and people are not related to the WH, who build their assumptions from the air? Maybe because some of us like seeing entitled pubbies cry? Goddamn, you're everywhere.
Is this a stalking thing?
And aren't you guys like banned from wormholes, or something?
Major (Ret.) Caldari Militia | Part-time wormhole pirate | Full-time super model Gÿá Wormhole Diary | GÖí #420roloswag
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
502
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:41:00 -
[202] - Quote
Napoleon Aldent wrote:Querns wrote: Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.
I was looking for a good signature. Thanks for providing one which will hopefully bring joy and laughter to everyone who sees it. It's funny because it's true. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
654
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:41:00 -
[203] - Quote
Nightingale Actault wrote:I would just like to point out, for those who are stating that we don't have any other way to tell what kind of PvE activity is occuring in a WH without access to the NPC kills in question, that you can in fact make an educated judgement of the PvE activity in a WH without this information. Is there 30+ combat sites in the WH or are there exactly 5 combat sites in a C5 with an online tower and nothing inside? This is definitely not so straightforward as having the number of sleepers and the timestamps available, but I do not believe that is a problem.
Those saying that you can escalate in peace are the most likely to be caught off guard when the clever hunters come calling at your doorstep. Those who are willing to work to find your schedule by scouting your system and gathering intel on your activities are going to be rewarded for the work they put in with your capital kills, the same as they always have, and will continue to do.
You are clueless, those sites can be despawned not just by residents but also by passers by. In fact many w-space groups leave cloacked scouts to despawn each others sites when those groups are feuding. |
Gulnara Amren
Imperium Research Inc
1
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:45:00 -
[204] - Quote
This aspect of WH space is not broken. You do not need to fix it. No one is getting a massive advantage- the tools are available to everyone, and anyone who spends a few days living in WH space will know about them.
Further, API kill data is a content generator. It does not hurt the game, it enhances it. While it may not be *by design* (oh, the Holy Design!), so effin what? It's worked out well.
There's a ton of things that can be done to improve WH space. This is not one of them. |
John Caldr
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
30
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:48:00 -
[205] - Quote
Gulnara Amren wrote:This aspect of WH space is not broken. You do not need to fix it. No one is getting a massive advantage- the tools are available to everyone, and anyone who spends a few days living in WH space will know about them.
Further, API kill data is a content generator. It does not hurt the game, it enhances it. While it may not be *by design* (oh, the Holy Design!), so effin what? It's worked out well.
There's a ton of things that can be done to improve WH space. This is not one of them.
This |
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:48:00 -
[206] - Quote
...actually doesn't say anything |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
503
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:49:00 -
[207] - Quote
Gulnara Amren wrote:This aspect of WH space is not broken. You do not need to fix it. No one is getting a massive advantage- the tools are available to everyone, and anyone who spends a few days living in WH space will know about them.
Further, API kill data is a content generator. It does not hurt the game, it enhances it. While it may not be *by design* (oh, the Holy Design!), so effin what? It's worked out well.
There's a ton of things that can be done to improve WH space. This is not one of them. This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
503
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:50:00 -
[208] - Quote
Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:...actually doesn't say anything There's some goofiness going on with the forums software right now; lots of posts are getting eaten. You can see a couple of empty quotes in this thread. One happened to me about 10 minutes ago. I think the forums are posting drafts of posts instead of the actual, completed post. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Alundil
Trader-Hoes
486
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:53:00 -
[209] - Quote
Querns wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Andski wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan. Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored. Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle? Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.
This is actually pretty laughable. I know you didn't write that with a straight face.
Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
John Caldr
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
30
|
Posted - 2014.05.06 19:54:00 -
[210] - Quote
Querns wrote: This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.
"Groups only looking for PvE" should stay in hisec and avoid dangerous wormhole space that contains PVP |
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